Odiyan: A Forgotten Scandal?

[RickFinney]

Back in 1991, as work on Tarthang Tulku's Northern California
retreat center Odiyan was entering its final stages, I became aware
of stories that a group of Tibetans had "escaped" from there. The
group, which apparently included at least one tulku and some other
religious figures, had been kept there--according to the stories--
in very poor conditions and had been made to work long hours on
construction and other tasks. Finally, they climbed the fence at
Odiyan, wandered on to one of the California highways, and made
their way to the Oregon center of Gyatrul Rinpoche and to several
other places where they were looked after.

I forgot all about this story until just recently, when I spoke to a
friend in Canada who told me that she had met and spoken to one of
these Tibetans, who had told her: "Getting away from Odiyan was
like escaping from the Chinese all over again!"

I have no idea what the truth of this story really is. Does anyone
know any details? Is anyone sure of what happened there?

- Rick Finney

[Dharmapala]

I hadn't heard this story, but an individual I know from South America came
to the USA and joined up with Tarthang Tulku, ultimately donating a rather
large amount of money and property to his organization. He also told me that
he was involved with the construction of Odiyan, and while in residence
there he descended to a status akin to slave labor, being overworked and
unable to come and go as he chose. Ultimately, he and a friend made a break
for it in the middle of the night and got away. Quite a frightening story
and one worthy inclusion on Henry's list of cults.

"RickFinney" <rickf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000129072546...@ng-fs1.aol.com...

"RickFinney" <rickf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000129072546...@ng-fs1.aol.com...

[Dharmapala]

Another for Henry's Cult List......

"Dharmapala" <dharm...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:870pt4$n21$1...@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net...

[Dharmapala]

This is as much as has been directly reported to me from a primary source. I
have heard other stories about it, and many of them were similar to this
one. It is based in San Francisco, and was started by Tarthang Tulku. The
name of the primary institution evades me, but perhaps Rick can recall.
"Henry" <ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:3894F5FC...@pacific.net.sg...

>
>
> Dharmapala wrote:
> >
> > Another for Henry's Cult List......
>

> Mind to tell me more abt the Odiyan and its relationships with Buddhism?
>
> --
> Yours in Dharma,
> Henry Chia
> (Ngawang Geleg)
>
> email: ge...@pacific.net.sg
> URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/4886/index.htm
> <-: Ngawang Geleg's Buddhist Home Page :->
> URL: http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/cults.htm
> <-: Buddhist Cults A - Z :->
> URL: http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/index.htm
> <-: My Music Page :->

[Henry]

[Henry]

Dharmapala wrote:
>
> This is as much as has been directly reported to me from a primary source. I
> have heard other stories about it, and many of them were similar to this
> one. It is based in San Francisco, and was started by Tarthang Tulku. The
> name of the primary institution evades me, but perhaps Rick can recall.

What happens to Tarthang Tulku?

[dharmapala]

Here is the main website of his organization, the Nyingma Institute. I don't
know what Tarthang Tulku's status is...
http://www.nyingma.org/inst/inst2.html

"Henry" <ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message

news:3895983C...@pacific.net.sg...

[Henry]

dharmapala wrote:
>
> Here is the main website of his organization, the Nyingma Institute. I don't
> know what Tarthang Tulku's status is...
> http://www.nyingma.org/inst/inst2.html

What is it going to be related with cults?

[Dharmapala]

I guess I should add that I would place such an organization as this in with
the Scientologists and the Shambala folks from Trungpa's camp.

"Dharmapala" <dharm...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:877atl$73q$1...@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net...
> Apparently a past of human rights abuses, holding people against their
will,
> devesting their followers of all their money. Sounds pretty fishy to me. I
> have heard from many people that they stay away as the place "feels" like
a
> cult. If it looks likes a fish, smells like a fish, and tastes like a
fish,
> it probably is a fish. Do what you want with the info. I see Finney seems
to
> have disappeared. I wonder what he has to say for himself since he started
> the thread?

>
> "Henry" <ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message

> news:3896E30F...@pacific.net.sg...

[Dharmapala]

[RickFinney]

Dharmapala wrote:

<< I see Finney seems to
have disappeared. I wonder what he has to say for himself since he started
the thread? >>

Not much, since I've been too busy to keep up with
this thread--or with the newsgroup at all--for the
last few days. The replies I've seen have been quite
interesting, but I may have missed a few. Have there
been any responses from the Odiyan organization
itself?

- Rick

[John Pettit]

Dharmapala wrote:

> I guess I should add that I would place such an organization as this in with
> the Scientologists and the Shambala folks from Trungpa's camp.

Now, now. Do any of you people really know what you're talking about? You don't
seem happy if there's not a scandal to flout, or a lama to bash. So now you go
and drag Odiyan out of the darkness, and then start glibly mentioning "Shambhala
folks from Trungpa's "camp", as if he were some Col. Kurtz in the jungle,
presiding over "the horror", amidst severed heads and fawning worshipers.

Tarthang Tulku is certainly a hard-assed SOB when it comes to getting people to
do work. In fact his people probably work harder than you ever have or will in
your life, and they do it for the Dharma. They don't sit around posting messages
to this group taking pot shots at lamas because they're bored.

Tarthang Tulku sponsors the Nyingma Monlam every year in India, and he also has
published many thousands of volumes of scriptures and commentaries and
distributed them for free to lamas in India and Nepal. All this with "slave
labor", if you will. But remember: Tarthang doesn't live in a state that
recognizes slavery, his slaves are adults responsible for their choices, and as
long as they know how to hitch-hike, they are free to leave. They don't need you
to go worrying about them.

I should also remind you that neither Tarthang Tulku nor Trungpa ever engaged in
ruthless campaigns of intimidation and character assassination as did L. Ron
Hubbard and his gang of psychos. Unlike L. Ron Hubbard and most other cult
leaders, they have never wasted their time trying to destroy or discredit those
who criticize them, nor did they go creating new religions with themselves as
the all-powerful head. If anyone in the guru business ever had a heart of
darkness, it was Hubbard. So you ought not place these Tibetan teachers in the
same sentence, much less the same class as him.

JP

[John Pettit]

I'm not a member of any Nyingma Institute or other group. I have never met
Tarthang Tulku though I know some of his students slightly.

As for why I am down on "Ron", I am down on him for the same reason many other
people did: he tried to ruin someone I know. The person in question was a
nationally syndicated cartoonist who happened to mention Scientology in the same
satirical breath as the Krishna movement (ISKON) et. al. The result was that
dear "Ron" mounted a nationwide phone blitz to newspaper editors asking them to
terminate the strip in question. My friend did indeed lose some of his business
and also had to deal with a lot of angry editors insisting that he improve his
work, not to mention threatening phone calls made to him personally. It was only
later when a Federal investigation for tax fraud found documents related to the
organization of the phone campaign that the reason for my friend's career crisis
became known.

[John Pettit]

Before anyone goes painting me as a partisan or supporter of Tarthang Tulku, let me
make one thing perfectly clear: I am not any lama's goon. I don't even know Tarthang
Tulku. All I know is that I have copies of some rare Tibetan texts he published, and
for that I am grateful. If he's anything like the publishers I know, and I know quite
a few, he's probably hell to work with. The publishing business requires highly
skilled labor, pays little, involves long hours and is usually run like a terrorist
state by petty tyrants. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

My point is simply this: don't slander anyone. To draw conclusions about the personal
character of any religious teacher because there is (or because one knows personally)
someone who was disappointed, disaffected or claims to have been "abused", would
require repudiating every religious teacher who exists, including the Dalai Lama.
Human nature is complex and although there is doubtless at least a grain of truth to
most unflattering stories about Lamas, an unflattering story does not ipso facto
constitute grounds for drawing a conclusion about that person's character -- because
there's always another story, often flattering, that remains to be told, and so on ad
infinitum. In any case such stories usually tell more about the storyteller him or
herself than about the ostensible subject of the story.

In law, hearsay is never admitted as valid evidence. Of course, most people don't know
the law, or logic for that matter, and will never hesitate to use flimsy evidence for
drawing conclusions. Another thing that most people don't know about the law is that
pronouncing unflattering hearsay ("slander") in public often qualifies as libel, which
is a punishable offense. And even if the law doesn't punish you for harmful and
useless speech, karma will.

Lotus Bud wrote:

> John Pettit wrote:
>
> > I should also remind you that ... Tarthang Tulku ... ever engaged in

>
> > ruthless campaigns of intimidation and character assassination
>

> Then clearly you don't know what you are talking about. It is one thing to direct
> conversation elsewhere, it is another to defend someone that is the center of more
> than one controversy.
>
> Perhaps the best response is one chosen by many that I know, there are certain
> names not spoken, and when questioned about teachers, promotes ones known to be
> valid and true to their teachings.

[Lotus Bud]

Clearly I don't know who I'm dealing with...
I sent a private message in response to Pettit and he published it on the newsgroup. It
wasn't meant to encourage this conversation, only to suggest another response. That was
why I didn't publish it, now why did Pettit?

It is one thing to ask for silence to slander, it's another to defend the subject as if
he's innocent when you know nothing of the charges.

If you know nothing, then say nothing and redirect the conversation.

That was the point of the original post.

I regret having responded to Pettit at all, his words suggested a sensibility and
character that evidently does not exist.

K.C.

[513co...@gmail.com]

This group is a cult. When I came from the EAST COAST to stay with them I realized that there was something very fishy about the publishing company. They were situated in a secret building in Berkeley. NO STRAIGHT FORWARD BUDDHIST GROUP would use SECRECY in this way UNLESS they have something to HIDE. I know what they are hiding, but I am not going to reveal it here, because it is basically sad and pathetic. When you find secrecy, deception and bizarre behaviors in any group---RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN to get away from it. BIZARRE CULTS exist in many religions. But Buddhism is particularly open to this because of the lack of central authority. Publishing books is good. Running an organization like the CIA is the work of paranoid and disturbed individuals.

[513co...@gmail.com]

This group is a sad and pathetic cult group. There is no transparency, and their press is a mismanaged mess of a company. Working there is bizarre-there is no clear management and no clear purpose to a lot of what they are doing. They did produce an incredible run of the Tanjur/Kanjur in 108 beautiful volumes. What actually happened with this production is unclear. If this was a legitimate group, they would openly publish their activities and financials and have a board of directors to oversee their work. Moving the press into the country is bizarre and not what a real Buddhist organization with sensitivity to the environment would do. ANY GROUP THAT DISPLAYS GREAT SECRECY AND PARANOIA IS ONE THAT ANY SENSIBLE PERSON SHOULD AVOID. EXCESSIVE PARANOIA IS A SIGN OF MENTAL DISEASE AND IS NOT BUDDHIST.

[all...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, January 29, 2000 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, RickFinney wrote:
> Back in 1991, as work on Tarthang Tulku's Northern California
> retreat center Odiyan was entering its final stages, I became aware
> of stories that a group of Tibetans had "escaped" from there. The
> group, which apparently included at least one tulku and some other
> religious figures, had been kept there--according to the stories--
> in very poor conditions and had been made to work long hours on
> construction and other tasks. Finally, they climbed the fence at
> Odiyan, wandered on to one of the California highways, and made
> their way to the Oregon center of Gyatrul Rinpoche and to several
> other places where they were looked after.
>
> I forgot all about this story until just recently, when I spoke to a
> friend in Canada who told me that she had met and spoken to one of
> these Tibetans, who had told her: "Getting away from Odiyan was
> like escaping from the Chinese all over again!"
>
> I have no idea what the truth of this story really is. Does anyone
> know any details? Is anyone sure of what happened there?
>
> - Rick Finn

8' razor wire topped electrical fences and Buddhism seem contradictory to me

[swp...@gmail.com]

This whole subject is complete horse stuff. I worked at Odiyan from 1979 thru 1995 and basically nothing said in this comment thread is true. Odyian was (and still is?) a major heavy duty construction site. Like most such sites it is closed to the public. Because funds were always an issue living conditions were very spartan. As the title and substance of the book 'Skillful Means' imply work as a spiritual endeavor is very important in this lineage. People were there to work and work on their inner spiritual issues. And nobody got to be 'special' and not have to work. In fact the higher you rise the more responsibility you have and the more work you have to do. My guess is that the South American friend mentioned above thought is donation of money would earn him some kind of reprieve from the daily work load. It just doesn't work that way. If you don't want to work hard for long hours you shouldn't be there.

There were rules about who could be there and what they could do while they were there. People were asked to commit to stay there and work for a certain amount of time. Given the amount of training that had to take place before one was a productive member of a team this does not seem unreasonable to me. I know from my own personal experience that people could an did leave whenever they wanted to. There was no need to go over a fence at night when you could simply walk or drive out of the front gate anytime during the day.

Tarthang Tulku is one of the many recognized representatives of the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism which is the oldest of the various lineages and which, until recently, had no Head Lama or Leader. All most all of the Tanjur/Kanjur sets were distributed to Tibetan schools in India. They were meant to help continue the lineage which means they were not destined for Amazon or Barnes & Nobel and the set is not available in the US. Printing the set took a tremendous amount of effort (thousands or tens of thousands of hours) and a great deal of money and it produced no income at all. So if you really want to see one go to India and join a Tibetan monastery and start studying Buddhism. Eventually you may be introduced to the Tanjur/Kanjur set.

Other parts of Tarthang Tulku's work include:
1. the very public Nyingma Institute in Berkeley, CA.,
2. Dharma Publishing which publishes at least 150 books & calendars that range from translated religious texts to cookbooks to children's books and more,
3. Ratna Ling and the Yeshe-De, Tibetan Aid Project. Much of the work of Ratna Ling and Yeshe-De has to do with the translation and preservation of the ancient texts which are of great importance of in the Nyingma Lineage and are not for the casual perusal by just anyone.

If you are really interested join the program, learn Tibetan and expect to work long and hard. Nyingma and Odyian are in no way a cult. They certainly don't hold people against their will and they do a great deal of good. At least if you're in favor of Tibetan Buddhism remaining a living tradition and effecting the world.

Steve Polkow

[ryok...@gmail.com]

Odiyan is not a cult. It is hard ass work in attempt to save a the dharma which was forced out of Tibet. I stayed and worked there on Cinttamani temple for 7 months in 2003-2004. It was 12 hour days off tough work helping to pour bronze stautues, working in lost wax casting and assorted other jobs. It is an experience that has helped me profoundly. If you want to go and sit and meditate, it is probably not for you. If you want to be part of building something that helps build and maintain the dharma in the world and don't mind busting your ass, then it might be. When I wanted to leave after my commitment was up, I did get the hard sell from Rinpoche, who was trying to finish the temple within a planned schedule and wanted to keep hard workers familiar with the work rather than retrain new ones. When I made it clear that I was not staying, no one was anything but friendly and appreciative for the work I had put in. There are many Buddhist lessons to be learned, but you do have to search them out rather than be spoon fed. I returned a year later and actually got kicked out for having a couple drinks at a bar on Halloween after they had made new rules because some clowns got into a drunk driving accident and then got rolled by some Pomo Native Americans on meth when they tried to walk back to Odiyan. I have nothing but affection though for the place in all its striving imperfection. The crew of people I met there was very diverse (personality wise if not really racially) and too individualistic to be a bunch of cult members. I am actually writing about my time there now, which is how I happened on this thread. I'm an inner city teacher now in Hartford CT and use many of the lessons I learned at Odiyan on a daily basis to maintain equinamity in the face of a difficult and challenging, but worthwhile and important work environment.

[bvg...@gmail.com]

Interested...I am researching do you know if they have need for equine specialist/horse/animal Care? I do see some info on gardening projects and there was a horse in one of the videos:)

[Odiyan Volunteer]

On Friday, January 10, 2020 at 4:37:19 AM UTC-8, bvg...@gmail.com wrote:
> Interested...I am researching do you know if they have need for equine specialist/horse/animal Care? I do see some info on gardening projects and there was a horse in one of the videos:)

Hi, I do not look at these reviews often, but yes! We are very interested in finding people who can help make our herd of rescued horses lives better. It is two years later from this post, but if you or anyone reading this is interested, you can email volu...@odiyan.org
Thanks.