THE FALSE BLESSINGS OF LAMA LODRO OF SAN FRANCISCO.
Barb Saunders
ever wonder how some people manage to get away with disgraceful acts?
well not any longer!
for the second 3 year retreat on saltspring island lama lodro decided to
send and recomend his student of many years - damchu "holy dharma"- woman
with severe mental problems of which lama lodro was fully aware.he send
her of to saltspring because he knew how disruptive and damaging her
presence on the 3 year retreat would be.he did not let her enter his own
3 year retreat in ugine - he did not want it to be destroyed.getting rid
hawever of some competition on saltspring saunded to him like good idea.
damchu entered and become a curse of our retreat.her presence was nothing
short of that of a demon.she never practied,she spend the sessions running
up and down the stairs,stealing food,cursing people by words or mudras.in
the eavenings she roam the hallways with kitchen knife threatening others.
at night she destroyed the tentors (tormas)and shrine.she performed
various buddhist rituals in way opposite to the way they should be
done(especially)during the pujas.damchu did chu practice only on full
moon.
all that in her mind to attract demons and destroy the retreat and its
participants.she especially focussed her evil doings on one- by evil
practices ,constant psychological torture,threatening etc. she succeeded
to drive the best retreatant out.afther that damchu would walk on dharma
texts,be totally disrespectful toward the drupen (lama)and all the dharma
teachings.with her the retreat deteriorated till there was almost nothing
left.at the end damchu set fire to the retreat building-it was only than
afther 3years and 3 month,afther people who shouldnt have left left that
damchu was removed from the retreat.only two women finished.thanks to lama
lodro the lives and karma of many people has been disrupted.our retreat
was destroyed.
if lama lodro was capable of the above what else is he capable of?what
kind of representation is he for the kagyu lineage?what kind of lama?
what should be done to prevent situations like the above and people like
lama lodro from destroing other peoples lives in the name dharma.
ex-retreatent.
e-mail me at saun...@intouch.bc.ca or post your opinion.
Trinlay Khadro
Barb Saunders (suan...@intouch.bc.ca) wrote:
: ever wonder how some people manage to get away with disgraceful acts?
: well not any longer!
Not knowing any of the parties involved, it seems to me that it is
Highly likely that he did not intentionally send her to make trouble.
the activities described sound very VERY much like someone on
anti psycotic medication of some kind suddenly quitting their medication.
(In which case she might have been nearly normal for Lama Lodro
but arrived at the retreat thinking that she would no longer need the
medication... )
It is hardly appropriate to make such a public complaint without.
1) doing some checking into whether it was indeed intentional...
2) following it up DIRECTLY with Lama Lodro.
: the eavenings she roam the hallways with kitchen knife threatening others.
: at night she destroyed the tentors (tormas)and shrine.she performed
: various buddhist rituals in way opposite to the way they should be
: done(especially)during the pujas.damchu did chu practice only on full
I have a friend, who when he is taking his medication is JUST FINE...
can hold down a job, function as a member of society, and generally is
an Ok guy...
Off the medication, he's a total loon... and only someone who
he has a deep respect for can be heard by him if they suggest he
needs medical attention...
"S* are you taking your medication?!"
: what should be done to prevent situations like the above and people like
: lama lodro from destroing other peoples lives in the name dharma.
a good many people who are struggling with a wide variety of illnesses
and occasionally well medicated mentally ill, find themselves drawn
to the Sangha...
(perhaps PARTICULARLY Vajrayana... anyone got any theories WHY?)
and perhaps the ones who frighten us are in the most need of our compassion.
(and why was neither law enforcement nor the Mental Health agencies in
the area called in?)
Your Full Name
FIrstly, it is good that this is raised publicly.
Lama Lodro from San Francisco KNEW 100% who this lady was before he
recommended her for the retreat. He had experience with her at his
center. People who saw her disgusting behaviour BEFORE the retreat, said
that she doesnt belong in it that her behaviour would be disruptive.
TO raise this issue with Lodro would be pointless since anyone who has
had any contact with this individual knows that it is extremely
difficxult to talk with him
Don Martin
In message <531dt3$k...@wolfe.wimsey.com> Barb Saunders wrote:
> damchu entered and become a curse of our retreat.her presence was nothing
> short of that of a demon.she never practied,she spend the sessions running
> up and down the stairs,stealing food,cursing people by words or mudras.in
> the eavenings she roam the hallways with kitchen knife threatening others.
> at night she destroyed the tentors (tormas)and shrine.she performed
> various buddhist rituals in way opposite to the way they should be
> done(especially)during the pujas.damchu did chu practice only on full
> moon.
> all that in her mind to attract demons and destroy the retreat and its
> participants.she especially focussed her evil doings on one- by evil
> practices ,constant psychological torture,threatening etc. she succeeded
> to drive the best retreatant out.afther that damchu would walk on dharma
> texts,be totally disrespectful toward the drupen (lama)and all the dharma
> teachings.with her the retreat deteriorated till there was almost nothing
> left.at the end damchu set fire to the retreat building-it was only than
> afther 3years and 3 month,afther people who shouldnt have left left that
> damchu was removed from the retreat.only two women finished.thanks to lama
> lodro the lives and karma of many people has been disrupted.our retreat
> was destroyed.
>>>>>> On the other hand, had the retreat been completed despite all
these distractions, then it would truly have been a wonderful
retreat. Sort of reminds me of Vajrayogini not being recognised
in days of yore.
--
Don
The born again Buddhist.
(...and again and again)
Tyree Hilkert
On 3 Oct 1996 22:14:59 GMT, Barb Saunders <suan...@intouch.bc.ca>
wrote:
Barb -
I think Pema Chodron taught that when we're hit by an arrow, it might
be better to relate to the arrow sticking out of our chest instead of
worrying about the archer.
I'm sorry your retreat was ruined. Maybe eventually, if you can regard
this whole experience as the guru principle, coming to show you where
you're stuck, then maybe you'll be able to benefit from it still. It
certainly sounds like an intense teaching experience.
>for the second 3 year retreat on saltspring island lama lodro decided to
>send and recomend his student of many years - damchu "holy dharma"- woman
>with severe mental problems of which lama lodro was fully aware.
Maybe, since he knew his own retreat would be too strenuous for her,
he referred her elsewhere? Maybe he didn't have the heart to turn her
down completely, and he referred her to someone else she didn't know
so that person could turn her down? Don't you think it's unreasonable
to expect him to predict the future three years in advance?
>getting rid
>hawever of some competition on saltspring saunded to him like good idea.
You're really angry with Lama Lodro. But is that anger clouding your
judgement here? Do you really think ANY lama would try to destroy the
'competition'? Think of the negative karma he'd generate for himself.
Even if he was that mean, do you think he'd be that stupid?
>the eavenings she roam the hallways with kitchen knife threatening others.
I know this all began when Lama Lodro referred this woman, OVER THREE
YEARS AGO. But when he referred her, she wasn't brandishing knives.
Why are you putting all the blame on Lama Lodro for something he did
three years ago, when at this point it seems to be the responsibility
of the retreat master to call the police?
>texts,be totally disrespectful toward the drupen (lama)
So the retreat lama knew exactly what was going on, you knew exactly
what was going on. You both failed to take appropriate action, such as
calling the police. You don't want to be mad at yourself or your
retreat lama, so all this anger is heading toward Lama Lodro. Very
understandable, and don't beat yourself up about it, but I don't think
it's very appropriate.
>at the end damchu set fire to the retreat building-it was only than
>afther 3years and 3 month,afther people who shouldnt have left left that
>damchu was removed from the retreat.only two women finished.
Wow... talk about your flaming lessons in impermanence... what a
horrible, painful experience.
>thanks to lama
>lodro the lives and karma of many people has been disrupted.our retreat
>was destroyed.
Now that this has happened, and you're saying, "Why did this have to
happen to me?" you might want to consider your OWN karma. Regardless
of who was at fault - Lama Lodro, the retreat lama, YOU, God, demons,
Jesse Helms... traditionally we would say that you experienced a
ripening of YOUR OWN negative karma, wouldn't we?
And the only good thing about negative karma is that it is purifiable.
By this horrible experience you've certainly burned off a great deal
of negative karma, which is good.
Cold comfort, isn't it. I don't know what else to write. I'm sorry
your retreat didn't end nicely and you didn't come out enlightened or
something....
- Ty
Francisco de Leon
For some reason, when reading this message, I was reminded of the following
statement in Herbert Guenther's "Buddhist Philosophy in Theory and
Practice" (Shambala 1971) (pg. 22):
"A major division in Buddhism is known as Hinayana and Mahayana. These two
appellations are used to indicate attitudinal rather than philosophical
differences. Mahayana refers to a socially-oriented attitude. Hinayana to
an individualistically-oriented attitude. . . . [A] particular social
attitude does not necessarily coincide with a certain philosophical belief.
A mentalist-'idealist' can be extremely selfish, just as a 'materialist'
can be thoroughly altruistic."
I would extent this statement to say that a particular social attitude does
not necessarily coincide with a religious practice. Sometimes people
engaged in "Mahayana practices" lack the Mahayana socially-oriented
attitude and can be very selfish. They forget to engage in upaya and to
practice bodhicitta towards all beings: even those who seem difficult and
disruptive of our "Mahayana practices."
Not having been present at the retreat I can't be certain, but it seems to
me that with a lot of loving-kindness (maitri, byams pa) and compassion
(karuna, snying rje) something could have been done to take care of the
problem way before a building was set on fire.
Does any one have a comment about the "crazy wisdom" aspect of this retreat
experience? It might be that this "damchu woman" very effectively
challenged the attachments of the retreat participants to their rituals and
possessions. Maybe the participants can meditate on that and turn the
experience into pristine awareness.
Barb Saunders <suan...@intouch.bc.ca> wrote in article
<531dt3$k...@wolfe.wimsey.com>...
> ever wonder how some people manage to get away with disgraceful acts?
> well not any longer!
> for the second 3 year retreat on saltspring island lama lodro decided to
> send and recomend his student of many years - damchu "holy dharma"- woman
> with severe mental problems of which lama lodro was fully aware.he send
> her of to saltspring because he knew how disruptive and damaging her
> presence on the 3 year retreat would be.he did not let her enter his own
> 3 year retreat in ugine - he did not want it to be destroyed.getting rid
> hawever of some competition on saltspring saunded to him like good idea.
> damchu entered and become a curse of our retreat.her presence was
nothing
> short of that of a demon.she never practied,she spend the sessions
running
> up and down the stairs,stealing food,cursing people by words or mudras.in
> the eavenings she roam the hallways with kitchen knife threatening
others.
> at night she destroyed the tentors (tormas)and shrine.she performed
> various buddhist rituals in way opposite to the way they should be
> done(especially)during the pujas.damchu did chu practice only on full
> moon.
> all that in her mind to attract demons and destroy the retreat and its
> participants.she especially focussed her evil doings on one- by evil
> practices ,constant psychological torture,threatening etc. she succeeded
> to drive the best retreatant out.afther that damchu would walk on dharma
> texts,be totally disrespectful toward the drupen (lama)and all the dharma
> teachings.with her the retreat deteriorated till there was almost nothing
> left.at the end damchu set fire to the retreat building-it was only than
> afther 3years and 3 month,afther people who shouldnt have left left that
> damchu was removed from the retreat.only two women finished.thanks to
lama
> lodro the lives and karma of many people has been disrupted.our retreat
> was destroyed.
> if lama lodro was capable of the above what else is he capable of?what
> kind of representation is he for the kagyu lineage?what kind of lama?
> what should be done to prevent situations like the above and people like
> lama lodro from destroing other peoples lives in the name dharma.
> ex-retreatent.
sari nichols
Did anyone contact him and ask him why he did this? I have been around
mental patience and can say that some disturbed people act more out of
control when put in a new invironment. She may of been on medication and
choose to stop taking it. Why was she there so long? After a day or so,
it should of been obvious to you that she was not good for the retreat.
I would like more information on this, as I was considering following
this Lama.
Thank YOU
Sa...@mcn.org
John Cleaver
Trinlay observes:
>(perhaps PARTICULARLY Vajrayana... anyone got any theories WHY?)
Well, certainly the outer reaches of mahayana, anyway.
I think it's because often someone who's lost it wants some kind of
justification or validation of their experience; you ain't gonna get
that from Theravada or Zen, you'll just get your shit thrown back at
you. In many mahayana schools, strange experiences are generally
treated with more acceptance, and even strange behaviour doesn't cause
as much outrage and negative reactions as in 'stiffer' traditions.
Jack.
Kent Sandvik
In article <01bbb26e$263d0320$4d6c...@kthubten.erols.com>,
"Francisco de Leon" <kthu...@erols.com> wrote:
>Does any one have a comment about the "crazy wisdom" aspect of this
retreat
>experience? It might be that this "damchu woman" very effectively
>challenged the attachments of the retreat participants to their rituals
and
>possessions. Maybe the participants can meditate on that and turn the
>experience into pristine awareness.
Maybe she was a dakini, testing everyone out? Anyway, I don't know the
background, and what happened. There's one bodhisattva vow by which someone
such as an abbot is obliged to expel a person who is causing great harm to
all the other members of a sangha or a similar group of people. But this
should only happen with the utmost understanding of the case, and also with
bodhichitta motivation.
Cheers, Kent
Tyree Hilkert
On Mon, 7 Oct 1996 23:15:18 +0100, "Rayya G."
<ma...@minarama.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm sorry, but this is the sort of stuff that really makes me wonder
>whether western Buddhists have really lost their marbles. We live in
>the twentieth century, for goodness sake - what's reprehensible is that
>no one in *3 years* (is that seriously how long Damchu was in the
>retreat) had the common sense to take Damchu along to a doctor.
>Everyone was waiting for the big guru to do something, all
>justifications 'maybe she was a dakini' GET REAL!
One of our sangha members asked Lama Tharchin whether, when practicing
pure vision, another sangha member would look any different. Rinpoche
said that wisdom isn't stupid and doesn't obstruct anything. So no one
would really have to look any different at all. They wouldn't sprout
extra arms and wings. They wouldn't be wreathed in apocalyptic fire.
To practice pure vision in our current state, Rinpoche said, all we
have to do is remember that all beings have Buddha nature.
So seeing her as 'a dakini come to teach you something' doesn't mean
that she's not exactly what she is, a very sick, troubled person that
needs to be taken to the doctor.
>What you lot on the
>retreat should be noticing is what a bunch of brainwashed sheep you were
>acting like. *You* are accusing Lama Lodro of a lack of compassion??
>Look at yourself - how could you have let that poor woman suffer for
>three years and on top of that have been sending all your negative
>thoughts (probably translated into non-verbal signals) to her. If
>you're going to learn any lesson from this, I hope it's to restore your
>common sense function to your brain.
>
>Sorry to burst everyone's happy clappy dharma bubble.
>--
>Rayya
Well, on the other hand, I can't see him, but maybe Rayya is wreathed
in apocalyptic fire... :-) Very good comments, Rayya.
Rayya G.
Kent Sandvik <san...@engr.sgi.com> writes
I'm sorry, but this is the sort of stuff that really makes me wonder
whether western Buddhists have really lost their marbles. We live in
the twentieth century, for goodness sake - what's reprehensible is that
no one in *3 years* (is that seriously how long Damchu was in the
retreat) had the common sense to take Damchu along to a doctor.
Everyone was waiting for the big guru to do something, all
justifications 'maybe she was a dakini' GET REAL! What you lot on the
Francisco de Leon
I completely agree with Rayya G's comment. Because part of my initial
response to Barb Saunders' message begins this sub-thread, I need to
clarify that the quoted portion is just a part, and the last part, of my
complete posting. Earlier in the message I stated something to the effect
that with compassion something should have been done before things got to
the stage described by Barb Saunders in her initial posting.
I am not a big fan of "crazy wisdom" myself; but I mentioned "crazy
wisdom" in my message as I way to overcome the resentment expressed by Barb
Saunders' in her initial posting: X had taken place, instead of resenting
X, let's learn from X and use it in the path. I should add that if we
learn from the Dalai Lama's statement that "kindness is my religion" then
we can try in the future from letting X happen in the first place. Rayya
G's comment is right on point.
Rayya G. <ma...@minarama.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<GqZu5MA2...@minarama.demon.co.uk>...
Barb Saunders
ALL TRUE.Very sensible aproach.One problem- the retreatens are not allowed
to remove anyone from the retreat.This is the drupens duty.We asked and
bagged almost everyday to have Damchu removed and provided with proper
med. care.The drupens did not want to deal with it - their answer- "Wait a
little longer , maybe she will change"
Since we could not help a lot of, people left- so did the drupen.- What a
great retreat that was !?-Hardly anybody inside, no drupen,no cook,no
food,psycho on the loose - true enlightenment.It was better to leave the
retreat than stay and have all those negative emotions and thougts.The
people inside did what they could to help damchu, but they could not force
her physically out the door - maybe we were sheep -she did not want to
leave and the drupens did not do what they should have done.Lama Lodro new
Damchu,new what she will do-he did not want her on his retreat.Our drupens
did not assume their responsibilities,we did not know how to deal with
this situation from the inside and alone.-What a mess.On the retreat there
is no phone.no electricity,no heat,no contact with the outside world
except through the drupen or cook.During the second year the drupen left
so did the cook.For teachngs we listen to tapes the drupen left us.No real
guidance.Once a month a lama from the centre would come and tell us to
stay in,for leaving the retreat would be bad karma.- The lesson from this
is- lets prevent this disaster from happening again and we should restore
our common sense function to our brain ,starting from the top and ending
on the bottom of the who and why.
b.s.
Barb Saunders
Again i fully agree.We are starting to talk common sense.X happened ,lets
learn from x so it will not happen again, even though it should have not
happen on the first place.
I do not resent Lama Lodro , i just do not approve of his action in
respect to damchu and our retreat.He should have known better than that-
and so should have the drupen and many other people involved in this.
This is not about one person, but about a situation created by many
people-situation which can not repeat itself, if we want Buddhism to grow
and remain healthy.
b.s.
Bosco Ho
On Oct 08, 1996 21:38:34 in article <Re: THE FALSE BLESSINGS OF LAMA LODRO
>and remain healthy.
>b.s.
Dear Barb;
again sorry to jump in in the middle of an extensive dialogue betxn U and
many other concerned buddhists. After reading several of your posts, i can
see the awful things U ve to go thru; and imagining myself in your shoes, i
probably would break down and abandon the whole thing right away. However,
whatever transpired has transpired; especially when we are buddhist
practitioners, may b it is worthwhile to think that U have repaid some
karmic debt and therefore U will have the wind in your back in (for a
change) so U will traverse the buddhist path swiftly from here on. I m not
merely paying lip service here. From the tibetan traditions, one of the 1st
lessons most of us learn, i would think, is lojong. Grasping the 8 verses
intellectually is easy, not so when we ve to live it. Or, as a lesson i
heard from a Ch'an master, as he related the teaching of Bodhidharma
Bodhisattva, one must abide in dharma (phenomenon) as it unfolds.
i wish U the best
in Dharma
bh
Kent Sandvik
In article <GqZu5MA2...@minarama.demon.co.uk>,
"Rayya G." <ma...@minarama.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm sorry, but this is the sort of stuff that really makes me wonder
>whether western Buddhists have really lost their marbles. We live in
>the twentieth century, for goodness sake - what's reprehensible is that
>no one in *3 years* (is that seriously how long Damchu was in the
>retreat) had the common sense to take Damchu along to a doctor.
>Everyone was waiting for the big guru to do something, all
>justifications 'maybe she was a dakini' GET REAL! What you lot on the
>retreat should be noticing is what a bunch of brainwashed sheep you were
>acting like. *You* are accusing Lama Lodro of a lack of compassion??
>Look at yourself - how could you have let that poor woman suffer for
>three years and on top of that have been sending all your negative
>thoughts (probably translated into non-verbal signals) to her. If
>you're going to learn any lesson from this, I hope it's to restore your
>common sense function to your brain.
Let's see if my emtiness teachings work or not..... OK. I apologize if my
small posting caused suffering and turmoil. I didn't attend this retreat,
so I don't know anything what happened, why it happened, and what should
have happened.
I agree that someone that suffers should be taken care of. It's clear this
didn't happen during the retreat. Maybe there's a reason why this didn't
happen. What I tried to post was just the little I know about Bodhisattvas
sometimes working in mysterious ways, and that you can't always judge a
person as someone crazy. Then again, someone that we see suffer we need to
assist, as this might be yet another test of a kind.
Cheers, Kent
Barb Saunders
Thank you Kent.
B.S
kunukia
On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 11:22:15 -0800, we recieved this message from
san...@engr.sgi.com (Kent Sandvik):
:
:person as someone crazy. Then again, someone that we see suffer we need to
:assist, as this might be yet another test of a kind.
:
I am wondering who would be testing?? A test by Lama Lodro? I truly want
to know what you meant, as I am totally unfamiliar with Tibetan Buddhism
(except from some books). Am trying to find out which lineage feels right
to me, partly through this newsgroup.
thanks.
kunukia
Kent Sandvik
In article <325d05c7...@news.inc.net>,
mm...@iosys.net (kunukia) wrote:
At some point in time a Buddhist (especially in the Tantric tradition)
should consider every being as a Buddha. Based on our interaction with
Buddhas we get blessings/positive merit, or we don't get, or we cause even
bad karma.
Now, to some degree it's a little bit scary to mention such practices to
newcomers and especially non-buddhists.
At the same time, it does not hurt to think of your fellow beings as future
Buddha candidates, already today. It sets the tone how you interact with
others without causing everyone harm.
Furthermore, until we are Buddhas we don't know what or who others are,
this due to the illusions we create due to our impure mind. This leads to
the interesting notion of not hurting others as part of the bodhisattva
vows, as we might hurt a fellow bodhisattva without knowing it... Going to
the notion of tests, a Buddha is a perfect being who knows the perfect ways
to get other beings enlightened, and provides such features whenever it's
needed. Hopefully this doesn't sound as a paranoia view of reality, but at
some point of time a Buddhist places their refuge on such a being.
As I don't know who Lama Lodro, or the women in question, and even if I
knew them I would still not fully know, then one fallback (speaking as an
engineer :-) is to consider them or everyone else as holy beings. This
doesn't still make one not responsible for the well being of them, or any
other being.
Hopefully this clarified my earlier points, if not let me know. I'm in no
way an expert Buddhist, so apologies if some of these statements are
unclear.
Mangalam, Kent
kunukia
On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:52:11 -0800, we recieved this message from
san...@engr.sgi.com (Kent Sandvik):
:In article <325d05c7...@news.inc.net>,
:mm...@iosys.net (kunukia) wrote:
:
: >On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 11:22:15 -0800, we recieved this message from
: >san...@engr.sgi.com (Kent Sandvik):
: >:
: >:person as someone crazy. Then again, someone that we see suffer we need
:to
: >:assist, as this might be yet another test of a kind.
: >:
: >:
: >I am wondering who would be testing?? A test by Lama Lodro? I truly
:want
: >to know what you meant, as I am totally unfamiliar with Tibetan Buddhism
: >(except from some books). Am trying to find out which lineage feels
:right
: >to me, partly through this newsgroup.
:
:At some point in time a Buddhist (especially in the Tantric tradition)
:should consider every being as a Buddha. Based on our interaction with
:Buddhas we get blessings/positive merit, or we don't get, or we cause even
:bad karma.
OK, so considering every being a Buddha, and therefore behaving towards
them as if they were, you get brownie points. This is not meant to be
disrespectful. I have had a hard time understanding merit. I can
understand one's own frame of mind changing by one's actions, therefore
creating the basis for future advancement or the reverse. I simply do not
see an external entity or group of entities making that judgement. I guess
what I am saying is I see karma as a self-created thing. And once one has
fully abolished the craving and protective *self*, lo and behold the
creation of karma, good or bad also vanishes. ??
:
:Now, to some degree it's a little bit scary to mention such practices to
:newcomers and especially non-buddhists.
Actually I am comfortable with this.
:
:At the same time, it does not hurt to think of your fellow beings as future
:Buddha candidates, already today. It sets the tone how you interact with
:others without causing everyone harm.
Cool.
:Furthermore, until we are Buddhas we don't know what or who others are,
:this due to the illusions we create due to our impure mind. This leads to
:the interesting notion of not hurting others as part of the bodhisattva
:vows, as we might hurt a fellow bodhisattva without knowing it...
Yeah, but that is not even necessary. I mean hurting *any* sentient being
is not better or worse to me than hurting a bodhisattva. Maybe it's worse,
'cause he/she/it *not* being a bodhisattva would be a lot more likely to
get pissed off and thereby create a bunch more bad karma for
his/her/itself. Not?
Going to
:the notion of tests, a Buddha is a perfect being who knows the perfect ways
:to get other beings enlightened, and provides such features whenever it's
:needed.
So, I ask again, who is doing the testing? Was this all a plan by some
enlightened being, or was this the karma of some or all of the people
involved coming to fruition, and hopefully bringing about realizations or
some sort of advancement.?? I mean in your opinion?
Hopefully this doesn't sound as a paranoia view of reality, but at
:some point of time a Buddhist places their refuge on such a being.
No paranoia percieved.
:As I don't know who Lama Lodro, or the women in question, and even if I
:knew them I would still not fully know, then one fallback (speaking as an
:engineer :-) is to consider them or everyone else as holy beings. This
:doesn't still make one not responsible for the well being of them, or any
:other being.
Here you seem to be saying the Lama and/or woman could have been doing a
test.
:
:Hopefully this clarified my earlier points, if not let me know. I'm in no
:way an expert Buddhist, so apologies if some of these statements are
:unclear.
I guess my point is that if you see someone in distress, who gives a darn
if it may be a realized being and you would get lots of merit. That seems
an awful motivation. You help someone because they need help.
I hope you respond again. Thanks.
:Mangalam, Kent
:
what is Mangalam?
kunukia
:
Kent Sandvik
In article <325d57bd...@news.inc.net>,
mm...@iosys.net (kunukia) wrote:
Ouch, I'm reaching the current end point of my little knowledge of
Buddhism, someone else might help me out...
>OK, so considering every being a Buddha, and therefore behaving towards
>them as if they were, you get brownie points. This is not meant to be
>disrespectful. I have had a hard time understanding merit. I can
>understand one's own frame of mind changing by one's actions, therefore
>creating the basis for future advancement or the reverse. I simply do
not
>see an external entity or group of entities making that judgement. I
guess
>what I am saying is I see karma as a self-created thing. And once one
has
>fully abolished the craving and protective *self*, lo and behold the
>creation of karma, good or bad also vanishes. ??
The laws of cause and effect controls everything. In order to get to a
point where one could break out from this rule, in other words there's no
way to generate bad karma and get stuck in samsara, you need to have a mind
stream that just *won't* create bad karma and is engulfed in just positive
karma. This is a Buddha. To get to this point you need to both purify old
karma, and there's plenty of that ready to be ripen, or based on the
activities it's created for future use. So I guess understanding this side
is easy, get rid of both the bad karma, and the generation of the bad
karma, and then suddenly the projections and the environment changes to
something that is incredible pure and pristine.
In order to get to such a point, there's a need to both have a direct
realization of emptiness, and also have a compassionate base thought of
helping all other beings at all times, as this is the natural mind of a
Buddha. For getting results on this side one needs merit, a lot of it, it's
like this collection of highly positive energy that forces one to behave
and project more pure and pure environments, and act in a pure way. If such
positive enery is missing, one does not get to the point. So karma is here
in action as well.
There are all kinds of measurements about the amount of positive energy
created by various virtuous actions, and these are described in the Sutras
and Vinaya. This is where my knowledge of all the cases is not at all
complete and well founded. But the measurement is not done by any outside
forces, it's really a relation to the action. If you do a good deed towards
a bodhisattva or even a Buddha, the merit you collect is infinitely bigger
than if you do a deed towards someone else. But the thing to remember here
is that until you are a Buddha you *don't* know who is a Bodhisatta or a
Buddha. So it's better to have this approach to all living beings.
Same with dedication, you could dedicate good merit for a pleasant future
life, but such pleasures will trigger and wear off, and you are in no
better state. Instead you need to work harder again to generate pleasure in
future, and it will wear off. All positive thoughts and events in our lives
are triggered by perfect deeds done earlier -- Karma in action again.
If you dedicate your positive energies for enlightement for the sake of all
living beings, it's like saving into a bank account that is not withdrawn
until you indeed are enlightened. Thus positive actions dedicated to
enlightenment is a safe investment!
>Yeah, but that is not even necessary. I mean hurting *any* sentient
being
>is not better or worse to me than hurting a bodhisattva. Maybe it's
worse,
>'cause he/she/it *not* being a bodhisattva would be a lot more likely to
>get pissed off and thereby create a bunch more bad karma for
>his/her/itself. Not?
Depending on the background of the bodhisattva, there's a point in their
lives where they are suddenly unable to get angry, and later unable to even
create bad karma. Theys still have to work for a long time to get rid of
bad karma and imperfections, though. Based on yet again karmic rules the
amount of bad karma is really based on the situation. It's not good to hurt
any being, you generate bad karma immediately. But let's look at a
situation where you cause a Bodhisattva to suffer, and this being is unable
to work for the benefit of other beings. So indirectly someone could cause
suffering for even more beings, including delaying their path to
enlightenment. Thus such karma is very big in scope.
>Here you seem to be saying the Lama and/or woman could have been doing a
>test.
Actually I'm hinting at the possibility that every situation in life is a
test for all of us.
Cheers, Kent
Rayya G.
Kent Sandvik <san...@engr.sgi.com> writes
>I agree that someone that suffers should be taken care of. It's clear this
>didn't happen during the retreat. Maybe there's a reason why this didn't
>happen. What I tried to post was just the little I know about Bodhisattvas
>sometimes working in mysterious ways, and that you can't always judge a
>person as someone crazy.
That isn't relevant IMHO. If she was recognised as a bnodhisattva then
wouldn't the response still be to honour her by cutting through our
attachments ('only the drupen can remove someone, I am not allowed to do
anything..') and doing what we can to relieve suffering. IMO Buddhism is
completely sterile if we cannot at the very least try to act like the
best possibile human. i.e. you can never tell whether someone is a
Bodhisattva or not (I assume that you think that Bodhisattvas can look
after themselves?) so better to assume they are human and treat them as
if *you* were the Bodhisattva.
--
Rayya
kunukia
On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 15:53:50 -0800, we recieved this message from
san...@engr.sgi.com (Kent Sandvik):
:In article <325d57bd...@news.inc.net>,
Yes
I see. I guess my problem is with the things I've read about ways to gain
merit. It seems to me that prostrating to a statue of Shakyamuni Buddha to
gain merit is perfectly acceptable. However I feel that falling to the
ground and glorying and opening oneself to the wonder of reality (which I
used to do as a child, and even now when I should be more dignified, at
forty-five, still do sometimes) is conducive to the same result. Maybe I'm
wrong.
It seems to me it is an altering of your mind-set. It is an acceptance of
ones place in the dance, of ones oneness with the dance.
Ye gods, that sounds horribly new age. But I generally dislike new age
stuff.
:There are all kinds of measurements about the amount of positive energy
:created by various virtuous actions, and these are described in the Sutras
:and Vinaya. This is where my knowledge of all the cases is not at all
:complete and well founded. But the measurement is not done by any outside
:forces, it's really a relation to the action. If you do a good deed towards
:a bodhisattva or even a Buddha, the merit you collect is infinitely bigger
:than if you do a deed towards someone else. But the thing to remember here
:is that until you are a Buddha you *don't* know who is a Bodhisatta or a
:Buddha. So it's better to have this approach to all living beings.
I guess it just seems complex and contrived. Helping someone, bhodisattva
or not is it's own reward. Virtue is it's own reward. You do good stuff
because you do good stuff.
:Same with dedication, you could dedicate good merit for a pleasant future
:life, but such pleasures will trigger and wear off, and you are in no
:better state. Instead you need to work harder again to generate pleasure in
:future, and it will wear off. All positive thoughts and events in our lives
:are triggered by perfect deeds done earlier -- Karma in action again.
:
:If you dedicate your positive energies for enlightement for the sake of all
:living beings, it's like saving into a bank account that is not withdrawn
:until you indeed are enlightened. Thus positive actions dedicated to
:enlightenment is a safe investment!
Yes, every day, I dedicate my merit, whatever small amount I may gain by
the practice I am attempting on my own, towards the enlightenment of all
beings. I just don't think of that when I help someone. I just help 'em.
: >Yeah, but that is not even necessary. I mean hurting *any* sentient
:being
: >is not better or worse to me than hurting a bodhisattva. Maybe it's
:worse,
: >'cause he/she/it *not* being a bodhisattva would be a lot more likely to
: >get pissed off and thereby create a bunch more bad karma for
: >his/her/itself. Not?
:
:Depending on the background of the bodhisattva, there's a point in their
:lives where they are suddenly unable to get angry, and later unable to even
:create bad karma. Theys still have to work for a long time to get rid of
:bad karma and imperfections, though. Based on yet again karmic rules the
:amount of bad karma is really based on the situation. It's not good to hurt
:any being, you generate bad karma immediately. But let's look at a
:situation where you cause a Bodhisattva to suffer, and this being is unable
:to work for the benefit of other beings. So indirectly someone could cause
:suffering for even more beings, including delaying their path to
:enlightenment. Thus such karma is very big in scope.
:
Very good point.
: >Here you seem to be saying the Lama and/or woman could have been doing a
: >test.
:
:Actually I'm hinting at the possibility that every situation in life is a
:test for all of us.
I guess I always think of a test as having an author.
thanks for all your help.
:
:Cheers, Kent
kunukia
Kent Sandvik
In article <326b9821....@news.inc.net>,
mm...@iosys.net (kunukia) wrote:
> I see. I guess my problem is with the things I've read about ways to
gain
>merit. It seems to me that prostrating to a statue of Shakyamuni Buddha
to
>gain merit is perfectly acceptable. However I feel that falling to the
>ground and glorying and opening oneself to the wonder of reality (which
I
>used to do as a child, and even now when I should be more dignified, at
>forty-five, still do sometimes) is conducive to the same result. Maybe
I'm
>wrong.
full surrender for the three Jewels as a refuge is IMHO totally acceptable.
>:There are all kinds of measurements about the amount of positive energy
>:created by various virtuous actions, and these are described in the
Sutras
>:and Vinaya. This is where my knowledge of all the cases is not at all
>:complete and well founded. But the measurement is not done by any
outside
>:forces, it's really a relation to the action. If you do a good deed
towards
>:a bodhisattva or even a Buddha, the merit you collect is infinitely
bigger
>:than if you do a deed towards someone else. But the thing to remember
here
>:is that until you are a Buddha you *don't* know who is a Bodhisatta or
a
>:Buddha. So it's better to have this approach to all living beings.
>
>I guess it just seems complex and contrived. Helping someone,
bhodisattva
>or not is it's own reward. Virtue is it's own reward. You do good
stuff
>because you do good stuff.
Yes, for the sake of all living beings.
Cheers, Kent
bdarr...@gmail.com
I was homeless then as I am still at the time of this writing. On e big reason I have chosen this lifestyle is because people like Shakyamuni and Jesus and many others recommended it. I did have one big problem about spiritual teachers though, this being the notion that you had to do whatever they said to do. I have come to believe that this is true when you have a very mature relationship with a very mature teacher. Any little lama won't do. This much I'm convinced of.
My first Dharma teacher had a mantra that he repeated to me that went like this "You have to work a lot. Have a nice house, nice car,
lots of nice things." Well that "teaching" didn't really resonate with me very well, but reciting sadhanas and mantras did. But I guest my reciting such things didn't resonate well with him because he kept on reciting his "You need to work a lot. Have a nice house. Nice car, lots of nice things."
Now don't think I'm afraid of hard work or long hours because that just ain't so. I once went to work and got off 32 hours later. That same week I also worked a 20 hour day. In fact that week I worked a total of about 90 hours. All manual labor, all at minimum wage. My boss didn't show up on Saturday to do more work that we had talked about out so I hitchhiked from Tampa to the other side of the Florida peninsula and got on a fishing boat and worked 17 hour days for the next two weeks. I discovered something on that fishing boat that I didn't know existed. You've probably heard of a second wind. Well I had a third wind after about 11 or 12 days. So when this lama kept telling me to work a lot he was just expressing his autocratic style, not his super knowledge.
Anyway, I was working with this guy doing add on of a room to a house. Inevitably the job came to an end. So instead I began to recite my liturgies and mantras for at least the length of a work day every day. I did this for about three months.
One day at the end of this three month retreat I went to see this lama hoping he would be satisfied enough to give me some encouragement
,but nope he didn't do that he just repeated his " you have to work alotmantra to me and I'll tell you this, it absolutely broke my heart.
I wrestled with this for decades and it literally drove me mad. I gave up on meditation for a couple of years. I had a nervousbreakdown. I lost all hope.
I have to leave the coffee shop I'm in so I will make it short. Recall Lord Buddhas teaching to the Kalamas. In short the teaching he gave was if what they say doesn't make sense, doesn't resonate with reason then maybe it isn't reasonable. Again from seven point mInd training, Of the to Principle judges, your own mind is the best one. Gotta go. Bless your hearts everybody.