Kathy Says SGI Lied but now They are Telling the Truth !
Cody
Buddhism.
> The continuous burning of the lamp of the Law and the
transmission of
> the lifeblood of the Daishonin's Buddhism is currently being
> perpetuatede by Sixty-seventh High Priest Nikken Shonin.
Therefore, we
> must revere the guidance of High Priest Nikken Shonin."
>
> ---Daisaku Ikeda, Discussing Kosen-rufu and Human Life, Vol. 3,
p. 249
>
> There from the mouth of your own leader
That was written during the period when SGI was doing whatever it
could to maintain a peaceful coexitence with the priesthood.<<<
What you mean is that SGI said they were lying back then, for
some forty years. And lying about something very important :
True Buddhism. You are saying that Toda and Makiguchi went to
their graves with these lies and so did all the members who died
before 1991. If someone lies for forty years, how can you be
sure they aren't lying now ?
>Circumstances eventually deteriorated to the point that it no
longer became possible to accommodate their demands, and SGI was
excommunicated.
They sure did. Nichiren Shoshu had a problem with Ikeda
proclaiming he is the True Buddha and is constant denigration of
the priesthood, rubbing beads, changing Gongyo, etc.
>Today, we no longer have to toady to the wishes
of the Japanese-centered authoritarian hierarchy that is the
Nikken Sect.
Kathy<<<<<
No, you have to toady to a Honorary President for Life.
What, exactly, is SGI's doctrine today ? It seems that no-one
knows or it is whatever Chairperson makes up on a daily basis.
For example, used to be Gohonzons weren't necessary. Then, when
a bought-and-paid-for "priest" stole a Nichikan Gohonzon,
Gohonzons were not only OK but encouraged. You say Ikeda doesn't
want to be adulated but his mug is all over your publications,
along with his meaningless poems and essays (which it isn't even
clear he wrote).
When are you going to get it through your slanderous head that
there is no such thing as a "Nikken Sect" ? I suppose SGI is not
a "Japanese-centered authoritarian hierarchy" and soon to be the
Ikeda Dynasty ?
Cody
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Cody
ipcr...@nospamhotmail.com (city of tiny lights) wrote:
>How long before they start suing us ?
>
>Paul
Good question. Well, they can't sue us, we're famous. Yes, we're
famous.
200,000,000 potential usenet users can't be wrong. or was it
500,000,000 users ?!?
maybe it's growing.
Of course, it's growing.\
Has no other alternative, old son, as my good friend, from
England, David Pinnell, would say.
Cody
<gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>Cody wrote:
>
>
>> That was written during the period when SGI was doing
whatever it
>> could to maintain a peaceful coexitence with the
priesthood.<<<
>>
>> What you mean is that SGI said they were lying back then, for
>> some forty years. And lying about something very important :
>> True Buddhism. You are saying that Toda and Makiguchi went to
>> their graves with these lies and so did all the members who
died
>> before 1991. If someone lies for forty years, how can you be
>> sure they aren't lying now ?
>
Let's see, Ikeda, Kathy and her hubby, Teery, YOU, etc.
This heritage of the law or
>transmission refers to the Dai Gohonzon essentially. In case
you didn't know,
>the SGI reveres the Dai Gohonzon of the three great secret
laws, it's just that
>there's no reason to create slander by supporting the
priesthood in order to
>worship it right now.
>
>Alan
You wish.
Alan
> That was written during the period when SGI was doing whatever it
> could to maintain a peaceful coexitence with the priesthood.<<<
>
> What you mean is that SGI said they were lying back then, for
> some forty years. And lying about something very important :
> True Buddhism. You are saying that Toda and Makiguchi went to
> their graves with these lies and so did all the members who died
> before 1991. If someone lies for forty years, how can you be
> sure they aren't lying now ?
Who said anything about lying (besides you) ? This heritage of the law or
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> This heritage of
the law or
>transmission refers to the Dai Gohonzon essentially. In case you
didn't know,
>the SGI reveres the Dai Gohonzon of the three great secret laws,
it's just that
>there's no reason to create slander by supporting the priesthood
in order to
>worship it right now.
Really, now.
Perhaps you can explain why SGI deleted the Ten Virtues of the
Dai-Gohonzon from the second silent prayer.
Perhaps you can explain the following representative quotes from
SGI members who have dumped the Dai-Gohonzon:
"I understand Wiley's viewpoint is sometimes still "old gakkai"
and lots of sgi-ers still believe in the Daigohonzon as you say,
the rosetta stone, crucifix type thingy."
SGI member TaiC...@aol.com , AOL message boards 3/18/99
----------------------------------------
[Derek]
People such as Ikeda and TaiChiDee would just love to parade
members of heretical religions in front of the Dai-Gohonzon.
[Tai]
Not me pal. I don't believe the DaiGohonzon claims by Taisekiji
and I have no desire to visit Taisekiji.
I admit it sounded good but it was just pablum for the
masses....for all mankind....what a lot of hooey.
You can keep it Derek, I don't want it. It is tainted forever in
my eyes.
SGI member TaiChiDee, AOL 5/25/99
----------------------------------------
Marc...@aol.com : "Would it be too much to hope that . . . [in
SGI] they have known for a long time that [Dai-Gohonzon] is an
obvious fake and are now in process of reforming their errors?"
TaiC...@aol.com : "There is always hope for us."
AOL message message boards, 5/19/99
SGI member, Ernesto Borges Torres: "I, for one, would certainly
hope so!"
AOL message message boards, 5/19/99
----------------------------------------
"No where in that passage or that Gosho is there any mention of
anything like the DaiGohonzon. As a matter of fact, no where in
any of Nichiren's Gosho is there any mention of the DaiGohonzon,
unless, of course, we choose to read such ideas into the
passages. We are no longer in the Enchanted Castle. We are in
the real world now. Time to grow up and stop believing in fairy
tales."
SGI member, Ernesto Borges Torres, AOL message boards 5/19/99
----------------------------------------
Djuhl...@aol.com : "What do you do during the second silent
prayer?"
SGI member, Ernesto Borges Torres: "Believe me, derek, when I say
that the last thing on my mind during the second prayer is that
counterfeit honz enshrined at Taiseki-ji. When I think of the
Object of Worship which is given to the whole world, what I have
in mind is the one the whole world already has in their heart,
not that piece of wood that people have to join some exclusive
little club to see.
Wile...@aol.com (Dick Powell): "Well said, Ernesto!" 5/20/99
----------------------------------------
[To Derek] "Why don't you just stop boring us with your self
serving sectarian propaganda and just provide us with the
historical evidence that the DaiGohonzon is genuine?
"Oh, that's right. I keep on forgeting. There is none!!!"
SGI member, Ernesto Borges Torres, AOL 5/20/99
----------------------------------------
"You have managed to avoid providing evidence to back up your
assertion that the transfer documents are in fact geniune. This
is especially crucial in the light of all the historical
evidences that prove these two documents to be fraudulent.
"You have also managed to avoid providing historical evidence in
favor of NST's claims that the DaiGohonzon was, in fact, created
by Nichiren, in spite of all the convincing historical evidence
to the contrary."
SGI member, Ernesto Borges Torres, AOL 5/20/99
Alanon
> In article <3937257C...@inreach.com>, Alan
> <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> Really, now.
>
> Perhaps you can explain why SGI deleted the Ten Virtues of the
> Dai-Gohonzon from the second silent prayer.
Because we're conducting gongyo, not having a study meeting.
> Perhaps you can explain the following representative quotes from
> SGI members who have dumped the Dai-Gohonzon:
In the Gosho, Nichiren states that the "Gohonzon is found in faith alone,"
Meaning that a person's determination in front of the Gohonzon is what really
matters. In my experience, the difference between chanting to my Gohonzon and
the Dai Gohonzon was that it was just a lot easier to summon forth that extra
determination understanding the background, etc. etc.
Not that I couldn't make the same determination in front of my own.
Alan
>
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
<gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" wrote:
>
>> In article <3937257C...@inreach.com>, Alan
>> <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>>
>> Really, now.
>>
>> Perhaps you can explain why SGI deleted the Ten Virtues of the
>> Dai-Gohonzon from the second silent prayer.
>
>Because we're conducting gongyo, not having a study meeting.
There is profound significance in the Ten Virtues of the
Dai-Gohonzon, and by arbitrarily deleting them from the silent
prayers, SGI is weaning its members away from the Dai-Gohonzon.
>> Perhaps you can explain the following representative quotes
from
>> SGI members who have dumped the Dai-Gohonzon:
>
>In the Gosho, Nichiren states that the "Gohonzon is found in
faith alone,"
Why does SGI issue its counterfeit scrolls at all? If we
take the phrase, "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone" at face
value, it seems that you would not need a scroll at all.
>Meaning that a person's determination in front of the Gohonzon
is what really
>matters.
Presumably you believe that Nichiren Shu honzon, HBS honzon, KHK
honzon, and downloaded internet honzon are all valid, as long as
the person chanting has faith in them.
You are trashing Josei Toda's guidance:
"We, ourselves, cannot produce the Gohonzon. Since it's the
enlightened entity of Nichiren Daishonin no one has the authority
other than the successive High Priests who have been the sole
heirs to the Heritage of the True Law. We take no part in this.
Therefore, the objects of worship inscribed by those in the
Butsuryu and Minobu factions [of the Nichiren sect] are
absolutely powerless. They are worthless because they are fake.
In fact, they contain the power of evil spirits. That is why they
are dangerous." Josei Toda, Daibyaku Renge, 98, p. 98
> In my experience, the difference between chanting to my
Gohonzon and
>the Dai Gohonzon was that it was just a lot easier to summon
forth that extra
>determination understanding the background, etc. etc.
>Not that I couldn't make the same determination in front of my
own.
My, my how times have changed:
Made a trip to the Head Temple Taisekiji.
My life force tangibly surges forth each time
I see the Dai-Gohonzon.
This is an undeniable fact that I can attest to through my own
experience,
as can thousands of others.
Those who, out of disbelief,
foolishly criticize us are to be pitied.
The morning sun rises above the majestic Head Temple.
Taisekiji, the wellspring of "Happiness in this World."
With Mount Fuji as its beautiful backdrop,
the Head Temple,
The Eagle Peak of here and now.
Daisaku Ikeda, as quoted from the old, outmoded Human Revolution
"There is only on sun in the sky, and only one ultimate religion
in the world. There can't be two or three. The final essence of
Buddhism is Nichiren Daishonin's Gohonzon of the Three Great
Secret Laws. Nichiren Shoshu is the orthodox sect which has
strictly upheld and practiced his teachings for nearly 700 years.
" ...Unless we chant Daimoku to the Dai-Gohonzon, which embodies
the ultimate teaching and purpose of Buddhism as the Daishonin
taught it, there is no way we can purify our lives"
--Human Revolution, Vol. 2 #3, p. 21
(c) 1986 World Tribune
Cody
Cody
Alanon
> In article <3937E96A...@inreach.com>, Alanon
> <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> There is profound significance in the Ten Virtues of the
> Dai-Gohonzon, and by arbitrarily deleting them from the silent
> prayers, SGI is weaning its members away from the Dai-Gohonzon.
So you're saying those virtues DON'T apply to any other Gohonzon.
> >> Perhaps you can explain the following representative quotes
> from
> >> SGI members who have dumped the Dai-Gohonzon:
> >
> >In the Gosho, Nichiren states that the "Gohonzon is found in
> faith alone,"
>
> Why does SGI issue its counterfeit scrolls at all? If we
> take the phrase, "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone" at face
> value, it seems that you would not need a scroll at all.
Just another question that has been answered countless times..... When I first
started to chant, I didn't have a Gohonzon ...so explain to me how I got proof
without chanting to a Gohonzon. Secondly because I can't see the Gohonzon
within me is why I chant to my enshrined Gohonzon.
> >Meaning that a person's determination in front of the Gohonzon
> is what really
> >matters.
>
> Presumably you believe that Nichiren Shu honzon, HBS honzon, KHK
> honzon, and downloaded internet honzon are all valid, as long as
> the person chanting has faith in them.
No because they are not organizations devoted to fulfilling the will of the
Daishonin.
You are trashing Josei Toda's guidance:
>
> "We, ourselves, cannot produce the Gohonzon. Since it's the
> enlightened entity of Nichiren Daishonin no one has the authority
> other than the successive High Priests who have been the sole
> heirs to the Heritage of the True Law.
If I remember correctly, Nichikan was a high priest, or at least he had the
skill to inscribe a Gohonzon.
> We take no part in this.
> Therefore, the objects of worship inscribed by those in the
> Butsuryu and Minobu factions [of the Nichiren sect] are
> absolutely powerless. They are worthless because they are fake.
> In fact, they contain the power of evil spirits. That is why they
> are dangerous." Josei Toda, Daibyaku Renge, 98, p. 98
Because they didn't inherit the Dai Gohonzon
> > In my experience, the difference between chanting to my
> Gohonzon and
> >the Dai Gohonzon was that it was just a lot easier to summon
> forth that extra
> >determination understanding the background, etc. etc.
> >Not that I couldn't make the same determination in front of my
> own.
>
> My, my how times have changed:
At the head temple..... of course. Do you really think that Pres. Ikeda would
write the same poem if he went there today? I think you're at least smarter
than that!
>
> Made a trip to the Head Temple Taisekiji.
> My life force tangibly surges forth each time
> I see the Dai-Gohonzon.
> This is an undeniable fact that I can attest to through my own
> experience,
> as can thousands of others.
> Those who, out of disbelief,
> foolishly criticize us are to be pitied.
>
> The morning sun rises above the majestic Head Temple.
> Taisekiji, the wellspring of "Happiness in this World."
> With Mount Fuji as its beautiful backdrop,
> the Head Temple,
> The Eagle Peak of here and now.
>
> Daisaku Ikeda, as quoted from the old, outmoded Human Revolution
>
> "There is only on sun in the sky, and only one ultimate religion
> in the world. There can't be two or three. The final essence of
> Buddhism is Nichiren Daishonin's Gohonzon of the Three Great
> Secret Laws. Nichiren Shoshu is the orthodox sect which has
> strictly upheld and practiced his teachings for nearly 700 years.
>
> " ...Unless we chant Daimoku to the Dai-Gohonzon, which embodies
> the ultimate teaching and purpose of Buddhism as the Daishonin
> taught it, there is no way we can purify our lives"
>
> --Human Revolution, Vol. 2 #3, p. 21
>
> (c) 1986 World Tribune
How about this old guidance from Nikken......"Those who slander the Soka Gakkai
are also slandering the Gohonzon..."
from the Reaffirming our faith pamphlet in 1980.
Alan
Cody
<gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" wrote:
>
>> In article <3937E96A...@inreach.com>, Alanon
>> <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is profound significance in the Ten Virtues of the
>> Dai-Gohonzon, and by arbitrarily deleting them from the silent
>> prayers, SGI is weaning its members away from the Dai-
Gohonzon.
>
>So you're saying those virtues DON'T apply to any other
Gohonzon.
No, read what he said and don't infer what you would like to
think he was saying. Now, can you answer the question as to why
SGI took the Ten Virtues out of the second prayer. Can you
justify putting Makiguchi and Toda in the third prayer and
negating all the High Priests after Nikko, including the one
that inscribed your stolen, edited nohonzon ?
>
>
>> >> Perhaps you can explain the following representative quotes
>> from
>> >> SGI members who have dumped the Dai-Gohonzon:
>> >
>> >In the Gosho, Nichiren states that the "Gohonzon is found in
>> faith alone,"
>>
>> Why does SGI issue its counterfeit scrolls at all? If we
>> take the phrase, "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone" at
face
>> value, it seems that you would not need a scroll at all.
>
>Just another question that has been answered countless
times..... When I first
>started to chant, I didn't have a Gohonzon ...so explain to me
how I got proof
>without chanting to a Gohonzon. Secondly because I can't see
the Gohonzon
>within me is why I chant to my enshrined Gohonzon.
When you first stareted chanting, after receiving Gojukai at the
altar of Nichiren Shoshu, your life began to yearn for the Dai
Gohonzon and you naturally received benefits. I guess SGI no
longer teaches that the Gohonzon has the power of the Buddha and
the Law and YOU have the power of Faith and Practise. When you
merge these four powers by chanting to the Gohonzon, you achieve
Kyochi Myogo. SGI denies this teaching, too ?
>
>
>> >Meaning that a person's determination in front of the
Gohonzon
>> is what really
>> >matters.
>>
>> Presumably you believe that Nichiren Shu honzon, HBS honzon,
KHK
>> honzon, and downloaded internet honzon are all valid, as long
as
>> the person chanting has faith in them.
>
>No because they are not organizations devoted to fulfilling the
will of the
>Daishonin.
SGI is an organization whose sole purpose is to fulfill the will
of Chairperson Ikeda.
>
>You are trashing Josei Toda's guidance:
>
>>
>> "We, ourselves, cannot produce the Gohonzon. Since it's the
>> enlightened entity of Nichiren Daishonin no one has the
authority
>> other than the successive High Priests who have been the sole
>> heirs to the Heritage of the True Law.
>
>If I remember correctly, Nichikan was a high priest, or at
least he had the
>skill to inscribe a Gohonzon.
Yep, and SGI had the "skill" to steal one, edit it and
counterfeit it and you chant to it. Really stupid.
>
>> We take no part in this.
>> Therefore, the objects of worship inscribed by those in the
>> Butsuryu and Minobu factions [of the Nichiren sect] are
>> absolutely powerless. They are worthless because they are
fake.
>> In fact, they contain the power of evil spirits. That is why
they
>> are dangerous." Josei Toda, Daibyaku Renge, 98, p. 98
>
>Because they didn't inherit the Dai Gohonzon
Nor did SGI.
>
>
>> > In my experience, the difference between chanting to my
>> Gohonzon and
>> >the Dai Gohonzon was that it was just a lot easier to summon
>> forth that extra
>> >determination understanding the background, etc. etc.
>> >Not that I couldn't make the same determination in front of
my
>> own.
>>
>> My, my how times have changed:
>
>At the head temple..... of course. Do you really think that
Pres. Ikeda would
>write the same poem if he went there today? I think you're at
least smarter
>than that!
Chairperson Ikeda will never see the Head Temple again. He blew
it and you seem ready and willing to blow it with him.
When the Soka Gakkai was a true lay organization of True
Buddhism, this was correct. Now that they are a political
party/personality cult, it isn't true any more.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
will offer my thoughts as well.
In article <39393EB8...@inreach.com>, Alanon
<gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" wrote:
>
>> In article <3937E96A...@inreach.com>, Alanon
>> <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is profound significance in the Ten Virtues of the
>> Dai-Gohonzon, and by arbitrarily deleting them from the silent
>> prayers, SGI is weaning its members away from the
Dai-Gohonzon.
>
>So you're saying those virtues DON'T apply to any other
Gohonzon.
I never said that.
>> >> Perhaps you can explain the following representative quotes
>> from
>> >> SGI members who have dumped the Dai-Gohonzon:
>> >
>> >In the Gosho, Nichiren states that the "Gohonzon is found in
>> faith alone,"
>>
>> Why does SGI issue its counterfeit scrolls at all? If we
>> take the phrase, "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone" at
face
>> value, it seems that you would not need a scroll at all.
>
>Just another question that has been answered countless
times..... When I first
>started to chant, I didn't have a Gohonzon ...so explain to me
how I got proof
>without chanting to a Gohonzon. Secondly because I can't see the
Gohonzon
>within me is why I chant to my enshrined Gohonzon.
If you got proof without a Gohonzon, then why do you need one at
all? If we take "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone," then why
do you need to see the Gohonzon within you? And if it is within
you, why doesn't it show up on X-ray film?
The gakkai becomes stranger every day.
>> >Meaning that a person's determination in front of the
Gohonzon
>> is what really
>> >matters.
>>
>> Presumably you believe that Nichiren Shu honzon, HBS honzon,
KHK
>> honzon, and downloaded internet honzon are all valid, as long
as
>> the person chanting has faith in them.
>
>No because they are not organizations devoted to fulfilling the
will of the
>Daishonin.
Neither is SGI.
>You are trashing Josei Toda's guidance:
>
>>
>> "We, ourselves, cannot produce the Gohonzon. Since it's the
>> enlightened entity of Nichiren Daishonin no one has the
authority
>> other than the successive High Priests who have been the sole
>> heirs to the Heritage of the True Law.
>
>If I remember correctly, Nichikan was a high priest, or at least
he had the
>skill to inscribe a Gohonzon.
He certainly did not *authorise* SGI to steal his Gohonzon, edit
out characters, and distribute it to SGI members.
Furthermore, Nichikan Shonin instructed believers to
"devote their lives (Namu)" to the successive High Priests of
Nichiren Shoshu.
>> We take no part in this.
>> Therefore, the objects of worship inscribed by those in the
>> Butsuryu and Minobu factions [of the Nichiren sect] are
>> absolutely powerless. They are worthless because they are
fake.
>> In fact, they contain the power of evil spirits. That is why
they
>> are dangerous." Josei Toda, Daibyaku Renge, 98, p. 98
>
>Because they didn't inherit the Dai Gohonzon
As Michael pointed out, neither did SGI. Good riddance to that
corrupt political cult of personality.
>> > In my experience, the difference between chanting to my
>> Gohonzon and
>> >the Dai Gohonzon was that it was just a lot easier to summon
>> forth that extra
>> >determination understanding the background, etc. etc.
>> >Not that I couldn't make the same determination in front of
my
>> own.
>>
>> My, my how times have changed:
>
>At the head temple..... of course. Do you really think that
Pres. Ikeda would
>write the same poem if he went there today? I think you're at
least smarter
>than that!
As SGI members themselves admit, Nichiren Shoshu has not
changed--SGI has.
This was stated shortly after the "Line of '77," the FIRST time
Ikeda tried to hijack Nichiren Shoshu. Nittatsu Shonin, Nikken
Shonin's predecessor, instructed believers to lay the "Line of
'77" and the "Shoshinkai incident" to rest, **on condition that
the gakkai not repeat the same doctrinal deviations.** Nikken
Shonin's statement above must be read in that context.
Alan
>
> >
> >Just another question that has been answered countless
> times..... When I first
> >started to chant, I didn't have a Gohonzon ...so explain to me
> how I got proof
> >without chanting to a Gohonzon. Secondly because I can't see the
> Gohonzon
> >within me is why I chant to my enshrined Gohonzon.
>
> If you got proof without a Gohonzon, then why do you need one at
> all? If we take "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone," then why
> do you need to see the Gohonzon within you? And if it is within
> you, why doesn't it show up on X-ray film?
Get help quick!!! You'll realize that the world isn't just black and white.
Read the Gosho......Conversation between an SGI member and NST member and
maybe, just maybe you'll get the picture.
........"To illustrate, when a caged
bird sings, birds who are flying in the sky are thereby summoned and gather
around, and
when the birds flying in the sky gather around, the bird in the cage strives to
get out.".....
Alan
Alan
>
> When you first stareted chanting, after receiving Gojukai at the
> altar of Nichiren Shoshu, your life began to yearn for the Dai
> Gohonzon and you naturally received benefits. I guess SGI no longer teaches
> that the Gohonzon has the power of the Buddha and the Law and YOU have the
> power of Faith and Practise. When you merge these four powers by chanting to
> the Gohonzon, you achieve Kyochi Myogo. SGI denies this teaching, too ?
I was getting benefits way before I received my Gohonzon and gojukai. The point
I'm making and asking is if Nikken has the power to turn on or off the benefit
of a Gohonzon, then how did I achieve benefit before receiving Gohonzon? And
how do you explain the the benefit I and other SGI members receive through
practicing with a Nichikan Gohonzon?
Alan
Cody
<gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>Cody wrote:
>
>>
>> When you first stareted chanting, after receiving Gojukai at
the
>> altar of Nichiren Shoshu, your life began to yearn for the Dai
>> Gohonzon and you naturally received benefits. I guess SGI no
longer teaches
>> that the Gohonzon has the power of the Buddha and the Law and
YOU have the
>> power of Faith and Practise. When you merge these four powers
by chanting to
>> the Gohonzon, you achieve Kyochi Myogo. SGI denies this
teaching, too ?
Why didn't you address the above question, Alan ?
>
>I was getting benefits way before I received my Gohonzon and
gojukai. The point
>I'm making and asking is if Nikken has the power to turn on or
off the benefit
>of a Gohonzon, then how did I achieve benefit before receiving
Gohonzon?
No, YOU have faith and practice. A valid Gohonzon has the Buddha
and the Law. Through shodai you should strive for Kyochi Myogo.
Nikken Shonin doesn't turn Gohonzons off and on - even though
SGI has told he thinks he can do that, SGI LIES - you, by
turning your back and slandering True Buddhism turn off your own
Gohonzon all by your lonesome. If you have one of those SGI
honzons, there is no Buddha or Law, so you are, basically,
chanting to nothing.
>And
>how do you explain the the benefit I and other SGI members
receive through
>practicing with a Nichikan Gohonzon?
>
>Alan
Moonies think they get benefits too. That doesn't make them True
Buddhism.
Kathy Ruby
news:3937257C...@inreach.com...
> Who said anything about lying (besides you) ? This heritage of
the law or
> transmission refers to the Dai Gohonzon essentially. In case you
didn't know,
> the SGI reveres the Dai Gohonzon of the three great secret laws,
it's just that
> there's no reason to create slander by supporting the priesthood
in order to
> worship it right now.
Incidentally, we still worship the DaiG. We just don't travel to
Taisekiji to do so.
Kathy
Cody
>Incidentally, we still worship the DaiG. We just don't travel
to
>Taisekiji to do so.
>
>Kathy
Really, how ? Do you use the Hubble Telescope to see the Dai
Gohonzon ?
And, if you really worship the Dai Gohonzon, you wouldn't
say "DaiG".
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
>I was getting benefits way before I received my Gohonzon and
gojukai.
If you received benefits without a Gohonzon, then why do you need
one at all? Why did you seek an SGI nohonzon?
> The point
>I'm making and asking is if Nikken has the power to turn on or
off the benefit
>of a Gohonzon, then how did I achieve benefit before receiving
Gohonzon?
If you received benefits without a Gohonzon, then why do you need
one at all? Why did you seek an SGI nohonzon?
>And
>how do you explain the the benefit I and other SGI members
receive through
>practicing with a Nichikan Gohonzon?
How do you explain the benefits that hundreds of millions of
Christians claim to receive from their faith? How do you explain
the benefits Scientologists claim to receive from their
"religion?"
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
In article <393A0A2C...@inreach.com>, Al Anon
<gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>"Derelek N.P.F. Juhl" wrote:
>
>>
>> >
>> >Just another question that has been answered countless
>> times..... When I first
>> >started to chant, I didn't have a Gohonzon ...so explain to
me
>> how I got proof
>> >without chanting to a Gohonzon. Secondly because I can't see
the
>> Gohonzon
>> >within me is why I chant to my enshrined Gohonzon.
>>
>> If you got proof without a Gohonzon, then why do you need one
at
>> all? If we take "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone," then
why
>> do you need to see the Gohonzon within you? And if it is
within
>> you, why doesn't it show up on X-ray film?
>
>Get help quick!!! You'll realize that the world isn't just black
and white.
This is a non-reply. Answer the question, please.
>Read the Gosho......Conversation between an SGI member and NST
member and
>maybe, just maybe you'll get the picture.
Oh, that's just grand. Now you're calling SGI members "Sages."
Your arrogance knows no bounds.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
<ru...@erols.com> wrote:
>Incidentally, we still worship the DaiG[ohonzon]."
Really, now.
[Derek]
[Tai]
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
>Incidentally, we still worship the DaiG. We just don't travel
to
>Taisekiji to do so.
You don't say.
Made a trip to the Head Temple Taisekiji.
My life force tangibly surges forth each time
I see the Dai-Gohonzon.
This is an undeniable fact that I can attest to through my own
experience,
as can thousands of others.
Those who, out of disbelief,
foolishly criticize us are to be pitied.
The morning sun rises above the majestic Head Temple.
Taisekiji, the wellspring of "Happiness in this World."
With Mount Fuji as its beautiful backdrop,
the Head Temple,
The Eagle Peak of here and now.
Daisaku Ikeda, as quoted from the old, outmoded Human Revolution
"There is only on sun in the sky, and only one ultimate religion
in the world. There can't be two or three. The final essence of
Buddhism is Nichiren Daishonin's Gohonzon of the Three Great
Secret Laws. Nichiren Shoshu is the orthodox sect which has
strictly upheld and practiced his teachings for nearly 700 years.
" ...Unless we chant Daimoku to the Dai-Gohonzon, which embodies
the ultimate teaching and purpose of Buddhism as the Daishonin
taught it, there is no way we can purify our lives"
--Human Revolution, Vol. 2 #3, p. 21
(c) 1986 World Tribune
p
>Alan <gra...@inreach.com> wrote in message
>news:3937257C...@inreach.com...
>> Who said anything about lying (besides you) ? This heritage of
>the law or
>> transmission refers to the Dai Gohonzon essentially. In case you
>didn't know,
>> the SGI reveres the Dai Gohonzon of the three great secret laws,
>it's just that
>> there's no reason to create slander by supporting the priesthood
>in order to
>> worship it right now.
>
>Incidentally, we still worship the DaiG. We just don't travel to
>Taisekiji to do so.
>
>Kathy
Kathy - does Daigohonzon in the above sentence mean "any Gohonzon" or the
Daigohonzon currently enshrined in the Hoanden ?
P
Mr T
Juhl <djuhl8284...@aol.com.invalid> wrote:
> >> you, why doesn't it show up on X-ray film?
> >
> >Get help quick!!! You'll realize that the world isn't just black
> and white.
>
> This is a non-reply. Answer the question, please.
>
> >Read the Gosho......Conversation between an SGI member and NST
> member and
> >maybe, just maybe you'll get the picture.
>
> Oh, that's just grand. Now you're calling SGI members "Sages."
> Your arrogance knows no bounds.
>
And it's typical. You see it a lot from the younger,newer SGI members.
I got a slew of e-mails from just one young guy. Never answered any of my
questions, but kept bombarding me with this sort of thing.
I finally told him to leave me alone. He always tried to get in the last word.
The worst part is, he probably went back to his youth division Justice
Group and decalred the "great victory" that he had with a member of the
"Nikken sect."
--
Kurt
anti-spam measure:
to reply send to: martman at primenet dot com
Mr T
> Alan <gra...@inreach.com> wrote in message
> news:3937257C...@inreach.com...
> > Who said anything about lying (besides you) ? This heritage of
> the law or
> > transmission refers to the Dai Gohonzon essentially. In case you
> didn't know,
> > the SGI reveres the Dai Gohonzon of the three great secret laws,
> it's just that
> > there's no reason to create slander by supporting the priesthood
> in order to
> > worship it right now.
>
> Incidentally, we still worship the DaiG. We just don't travel to
> Taisekiji to do so.
>
> Kathy
Oh, I forgot, it's "within you" somewhere.
Alan
> In article <393A0CF8...@inreach.com>, Alan
> <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> >> When you first stareted chanting, after receiving Gojukai at
> the
> >> altar of Nichiren Shoshu, your life began to yearn for the Dai
> >> Gohonzon and you naturally received benefits. I guess SGI no
> longer teaches
> >> that the Gohonzon has the power of the Buddha and the Law and
> YOU have the
> >> power of Faith and Practise. When you merge these four powers
> by chanting to
> >> the Gohonzon, you achieve Kyochi Myogo. SGI denies this
> teaching, too ?
>
> Why didn't you address the above question, Alan ?
To answer the question.....the power of the Buddha and the Law are ONLY
activated by our power of Faith and Practice. There is no separate power of
Buddha and Law. It's just like the old saying.....if a tree fell donw in a
forest and no one was there to hear it would there be sound?
> >
> >I was getting benefits way before I received my Gohonzon and
> gojukai. The point
> >I'm making and asking is if Nikken has the power to turn on or
> off the benefit
> >of a Gohonzon, then how did I achieve benefit before receiving
> Gohonzon?
>
> No, YOU have faith and practice. A valid Gohonzon has the Buddha
> and the Law. Through shodai you should strive for Kyochi Myogo.
> Nikken Shonin doesn't turn Gohonzons off and on - even though
> SGI has told he thinks he can do that, SGI LIES - you, by
> turning your back and slandering True Buddhism turn off your own
> Gohonzon all by your lonesome.
Well here's a quote right from you know where......
NST News Special Issue: "One should never worship anything as a Gohonzon
that has not been authorized as such by the High Priest, who has inherited the
Heritage of the Law, even if it was inscribed by Nichiren Daishonin himself,
oreven if it is a mandala transcribed by Nikko Shonin or any of the successive
high priests." (p3-4)
> If you have one of those SGI
> honzons, there is no Buddha or Law, so you are, basically,
> chanting to nothing.
My how things change so fast with you guys....first you say that (quoting Toda)
a Nichikan Gohonzon possesses evil spirits, and now you're saying it is
nothing.... Wonder how long it will be when you say good things about it.
>
> >And
> >how do you explain the the benefit I and other SGI members
> receive through
> >practicing with a Nichikan Gohonzon?
> >
> >Alan
>
> Moonies think they get benefits too. That doesn't make them True
> Buddhism.
>
Who cares.....I'd rather practice Nichiren Daishonin's buddhism.
Alan
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
>Incidentally, we still worship the DaiG. We just don't travel
to
>Taisekiji to do so.
"Those with resolve should go on Tozan and pray." (Nichikan
Shonin, Juryohon Dangi [Lectures on the Juryo Chapter],
Collection of Study Essentials for the Fuji School, Vol. 10, p.
131)
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
<gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>the power of the Buddha and the Law
are ONLY
>activated by our power of Faith and Practice. There is no
separate power of
>Buddha and Law. It's just like the old saying.....if a tree fell
donw in a
>forest and no one was there to hear it would there be sound?
12. Is it correct to think that "The object of worship exists
nowhere but within the two Chinese characters which comprise the
word 'faith?'"
This is Mr. Daisaku Ikeda's arbitrary interpretation of a passage
from "The Real Aspect of the Gohonzon (Nichinyo Gozen Gohenji),"
which states, "This Gohonzon is realized only within the two
Chinese characters that comprise the word 'faith.'" (Shinpen, p.
1388)
Mr. Ikeda further wrongfully twists passages of Nichikan Shonin,
asserting that "Regarding the Gohonzon, faith is what is
important." (Mr. Ikeda's speech of September 7, 1993) However,
this is a heresy derived from an upside-down egotistical view
that centers upon our faith instead of the Gohonzon. In "Montei
Hichin Sho (The Meaning Hidden in the Depths)," Nichikan Shonin
explains:
"Since the object fully gives rise to wisdom and wisdom further
leads to practice, if the object of worship is not correct, then
it follows that neither the wisdom nor the practice are correct."
(Seiten, p. 833)
In other words, in having the Gohonzon as the object, first the
faith (wisdom) of common mortals is manifested, and practice in
turn derives from faith (wisdom). But if the object of worship
is incorrect, then neither the resultant faith nor practice are
correct. Mr. Ikeda's statement, "Regarding the Gohonzon, faith
is what's important," mistakenly places faith of common mortals
in the center and holds the Dai-Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary of
the Essential Teachings in disregard. This is a groundless
slander.
[c. 1996, Nichiren Shoshu Temple]
Alan
> Further proof that SGI members have no clue:
>
> In article <393A0A2C...@inreach.com>, Al Anon
> <gra...@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> >"Derelek N.P.F. Juhl" wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Just another question that has been answered countless
> >> times..... When I first
> >> >started to chant, I didn't have a Gohonzon ...so explain to
> me
> >> how I got proof
> >> >without chanting to a Gohonzon. Secondly because I can't see
> the
> >> Gohonzon
> >> >within me is why I chant to my enshrined Gohonzon.
> >>
> >> If you got proof without a Gohonzon, then why do you need one
> at
> >> all? If we take "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone," then
> why
> >> do you need to see the Gohonzon within you? And if it is
> within
> >> you, why doesn't it show up on X-ray film?
> >
> >Get help quick!!! You'll realize that the world isn't just black
> and white.
>
> This is a non-reply. Answer the question, please.
Here's a passage from "on attaining enlightenment....." to explain why we chant
to the Gohonzon and why it doens't show up on X-rays.
"What then does myo signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our lives
from moment
to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend nor words express. When you look
into
your own mind at any moment, you perceive neither color nor form to verify that
it exists.
Yet you still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts
continually occur to
you. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and
concepts of
existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet
exhibits the
qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the
reality of all things.
Myo is the name given to the mystic nature of life, and ho to its
manifestations.
Cody
at
>> the
>> >> altar of Nichiren Shoshu, your life began to yearn for the
Dai
>> >> Gohonzon and you naturally received benefits. I guess SGI
no
>> longer teaches
>> >> that the Gohonzon has the power of the Buddha and the Law
and
>> YOU have the
>> >> power of Faith and Practise. When you merge these four
powers
>> by chanting to
>> >> the Gohonzon, you achieve Kyochi Myogo. SGI denies this
>> teaching, too ?
>>
>
are ONLY
>activated by our power of Faith and Practice. There is no
separate power of
>Buddha and Law. It's just like the old saying.....if a tree
fell donw in a
>forest and no one was there to hear it would there be sound?
You're wrong about this, Alan. You are also denying the power of
the Gohonzon. Yes, of course there would be a sound.
I don't see the contradiction. By chanting a non-
authorised "Gohonzon", you are slandering the High Priest and
arrogantly thinking that you are chanting to a valid Gohonzon.
>
>
>> If you have one of those SGI
>> honzons, there is no Buddha or Law, so you are, basically,
>> chanting to nothing.
>
>My how things change so fast with you guys....first you say
that (quoting Toda)
>a Nichikan Gohonzon possesses evil spirits, and now you're
saying it is
>nothing.... Wonder how long it will be when you say good things
about it.
I must admit when I saw one of those things it gave me a
strange, creepy feeling that took a few days of chanting to a
valid Gohonzon to shake off.
>
>>
>> >And
>> >how do you explain the the benefit I and other SGI members
>> receive through
>> >practicing with a Nichikan Gohonzon?
>> >
>> >Alan
>>
>> Moonies think they get benefits too. That doesn't make them
True
>> Buddhism.
>>
>
>Who cares.....I'd rather practice Nichiren Daishonin's buddhism.
>
>Alan
You missed the point. You think you are getting benefits but, if
you are with the personality cult/political party called SGI,
you are NOT even coming close to practising Nichiren Daishonin's
Buddhism.
Alan
Did you also ask him why the Gohonzon doesn't show up on X-rays? :@)
Alan
Mr T
Is this an SGI thing? Never heard that one before...
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
gra...@inreach.com wrote:
We're still waiting for you to answer the questions:
If you got proof without a Gohonzon, then why do you need one
at all? If we take "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone," then why
do you need to see the Gohonzon within you?
--
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
"It contradicts the whole of the Daishonin's Buddhism."
SGI member, Kathy Ruby's opinion of Nichikan Shonin's doctrine
posted to arbn 5/24/00
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
ne...@bobco.com (Mr T) wrote:
> > Did you also ask him why the Gohonzon doesn't show up on X-rays?
:@)
> >
> > Alan
>
> Is this an SGI thing? Never heard that one before...
That was my question to Alan.
I was pointing out SGI members' inability to differentiate between the
Gohonzon Mandala, i.e., the Living Daishonin Himself; and the Buddha
Nature of unenlightened mortals.
If we take the phrase, "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone" literally,
then SGI members are hard pressed to explain why they seek SGI nohonzon.
Alan
>
> Mr. Ikeda further wrongfully twists passages of Nichikan Shonin,
> asserting that "Regarding the Gohonzon, faith is what is
> important." (Mr. Ikeda's speech of September 7, 1993) However,
> this is a heresy derived from an upside-down egotistical view
> that centers upon our faith instead of the Gohonzon.
You would have a point if a person DIDN'T have a desire to chant to a Gohonzon.
However when a person chants to a Gohonzon there is a balance achieved of not
being self centered and not being dependent of others.
Alan
Alan
>
> If we take the phrase, "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone" literally,
> then SGI members are hard pressed to explain why they seek SGI nohonzon.
>
What the phrase essentially means is that if a person chants and does
nothing else but watch reruns of gilligan's island that person won't
mainifest their full potential or buddha nature or absolute happiness. The
definition of "faith" in this line is "taking action based on chanting to
the Gohonzon." The context of this phrase is that we are responsible for
our lives as opposed to being victims of our destiny as taught in other
religions and that was a very similar situation during the Daishonin's time
as well.
Alan
Alan
>
> If you got proof without a Gohonzon, then why do you need one
> at all? If we take "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone," then why
> do you need to see the Gohonzon within you?
It's more of a great desire than a need. Knowing that the Daishonin
bestowed the Gohonzon for all humanity makes me desire to chant to it. The
point I was making is that no one needs a sleep-chanting high priest to
wave his fan to instill some mysterious hocus pocus onto a Gohonzon.
Alan
>
>
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
gra...@inreach.com wrote:
> "Derek N.P.F. Juhl" wrote:
>
> > If we take the phrase, "The Gohonzon is found in faith alone"
literally,
> > then SGI members are hard pressed to explain why they seek SGI
nohonzon.
> >
>
> What the phrase essentially means is that if a person chants and does
> nothing else but watch reruns of gilligan's island that person won't
> mainifest their full potential or buddha nature or absolute happiness.
Round and round you go. First you quoted the Gosho passage, "Gohonzon
is found in faith alone," and you stated that you had received benefits
without a Gohonzon. That implied that a Gohonzon is not necessary.
Now you are backtracking and saying that a Gohonzon *is* necessary.
Which is it? What exactly do you believe?
> The
> definition of "faith" in this line is "taking action based on chanting
to
> the Gohonzon." The context of this phrase is that we are responsible
for
> our lives as opposed to being victims of our destiny as taught in
other
> religions and that was a very similar situation during the Daishonin's
time
> as well.
I agree. However, without the correct Object of Worship, there can be
no benefit whatsoever towards one's enlightenment.
To see why SGI honzon are counterfeit:
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/sgcfg.html
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/nstnews.html
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/sgigolet2.html
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/grvgo.html
Richard Thieme
(snip)
> I guess your arguement has to do with to the 'eye opening' fantasy
> that was completely refuted by me and by others, several years ago, on
> this newsgroup. Too bad you missed it.
Been lurking for a long time and never saw any brilliant refutation. If
there was any it was by that guy Frank Ross who decided to print up his own.
Not a bad way to go really. Assuming one needs it at all.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Rick Hukkanen
<djuhl8284...@aol.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <39445c40....@news.lvcablemodem.com>,
>ric...@thcnet.net wrote:
>
>>I suppose you think the law is outside of yourself, huh? What
>kind of
>>Buddhism would that be? Not Nichiren's.
>>
>>Rick
>
>Rick has just provided evidence of what I wrote to Kurt earlier:
>
>"I was pointing out SGI members' inability to differentiate
>between the Gohonzon Mandala, i.e., the Living Daishonin Himself;
>and the Buddha Nature of unenlightened mortals.
It's the same Buddha Nature. There is no differentiation. To claim
that there is a difference, is to create a hierarchy of enlightenment.
This is ridiculous, and contradicts the Buddha's words in the Lotus
Sutra:
"Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the Buddha way." (LS2-36)
The only 'difference' between a Buddha and an un-enlightened person is
the fact that a Buddha is enlightened to his/her buddhahood.
>
>"If we take the phrase, 'The Gohonzon is found in faith alone'
>literally,
Please explain for arbn how you take the phrase?
>then SGI members are hard pressed to explain why they
>seek SGI nohonzon."
I guess your arguement has to do with to the 'eye opening' fantasy
that was completely refuted by me and by others, several years ago, on
this newsgroup. Too bad you missed it.
Rick Hukkanen
Cody
ric...@thcnet.net (Rick Hukkanen) wrote:
>I guess your arguement has to do with to the 'eye opening'
fantasy
>that was completely refuted by me and by others, several years
ago, on
>this newsgroup. Too bad you missed it.
>
>
>Rick Hukkanen
Rick, if you have a problem with the Eye Opening Ceremony, do
you also have a problem with the Gojukai Ceremony or the
Gohonzon Okuri Ceremony or, for that matter, Gongyo ?
I would venture to say you have no idea what is involved in an
Eye Opening Ceremony.
As far as your inferring that we think that Priests are "better"
than lay persons, you are mistaken. In essence, we are all the
same, just like the part of the Lotus Sutra you quoted says.
Priests and lay persons simply have different missions,
something your Chairperson Ikeda has forgotten and you have too.