Why chant so fast?
Shane52462
they can. [Presumably on the theory that more repetitions is better than less].
Some of the other denominations chant at a slower pace, trying to clearly
pronounce each syllable of the Sutra. [On the theory that this demonstrates
respect for the Sutra]. It seems to me that slower chanting is easier for new
members to master, and is more relaxing...Am I the only one who finds this high
speed chanting annoying? What harm would be done by slowing down? Thoughts
anyone?
Fred
what the rush is...it's kinda like "OK, we gotta finish Gongyo, cause the
game is on." I am definitely not into machine-gun Gongyo.
Not only is slow Gongyo easier to master, it has a much more respectful
aspect to it. Each syllable of the Lotus Sutra should be thought of as the
Buddha himself.
Fred
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> wrote in message
news:20010617131214...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
Cody
Nichiren Shoshu, we do Gongyo and Daimoku much slower.
Cody
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> escribió en el mensaje
news:20010617131214...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
Shane52462
I thought that SGI probably got that from NST...but maybe not...so they really
have slowed it down at NST? Do they still repeat the same sections 3 times or
do they just go through it all once?
Thanks
Cody
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> escribió en el mensaje
The recitation of the sutra is the same, just the silent prayers are
different. This is also done more slowly.
No, I think the hyper Daimoku was invented by SGI.
Cody
Shane52462
different. This is also done more slowly.>>
So there are sections that are repeated 3 times? Does that means Gongyo takes a
really long time? are the silent prayers available on-line? thx.
Cody
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> escribió en el mensaje
> <<The recitation of the sutra is the same, just the silent prayers are
> different. This is also done more slowly.>>
>
> So there are sections that are repeated 3 times? Does that means Gongyo
takes a
> really long time?
Takes me about 1/2 hour in the morning and 20 minutes in the evening for the
sutra part.
> are the silent prayers available on-line? thx.<
Not that I know of.
Cody
Mr T
shane...@aol.comspamless (Shane52462) wrote:
This was a bad habit many of us picked up in the SGI.
In Nichiren Shoshu, we chant clearly and recite the sutra at a pace so
that we can enunciate every word.
--
Kurt
Mr T
shane...@aol.comspamless (Shane52462) wrote:
It was definately an SGI thing. If you ever went to the temple, you
noticed how slower the pace was,
Gongyo is the same one we did 30 years ago.
--
Kurt
Mr T
shane...@aol.comspamless (Shane52462) wrote:
The temple regards the sutra book, and it's contents with enormous
respect. For this reason, we don't publish an online version of it.
Nichiren Sutra regards being able to recite the sutra as a tremendous
benefit. This is why we don't do things like put the book directly on
the floor. For me, the actual recitation of the sutra in the morning
takes about 25-30 minutes. Evening is about 20 (not counting daimoku).
--
Kurt
Doppelganger39
>From: shane...@aol.comspamless (Shane52462)
>Date: 6/17/01 1:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20010617131214...@ng-ci1.aol.com>
>
I think SGI was so involved with daimoku campaigns and daimoku charts that
members felt taxed and figured out things like how many daimoku to a minute, an
hour etc., how many hours a day needed to be chanted to reach a million daimoku
BTW a million daimoku chanted for some goal was supposed to produce actual
proof or benefit or effect at the completion of the amount. This type of thing
may have contributed to the freight train gongyo and daimoku. The first time I
heard members chanting at a meeting I was in a hall about to go in to
someone's apartment and it sounded like a swarm of bees They were chanting
intensely for their street shakubuku efforts to bring in guests Chanting that
way was considered showing great ichinen, power, desire and
determination....there was also alot of furious bead rubbing. d
Fred
I wonder if any of them ever had flattened them out??
"Doppelganger39" <doppelg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010617191043...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
MarcInMD
developing "Shin Jin" the Believing Mind.
You should not chant so fast that the Daimoku becomes disrespectful and you
should not chant so slow that it sounds like a funeral derdge.
It should be chanted with great enthusiasm which will often lead to chanting
fast.
nsbud...@hotmail.com
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> wrote :
First off, "Abundant Odaimoku" has little to do with the amount of
repetitions. Depth of heart, mind, spirit, intent, joy, appreciation... will
always supercede amount. A Million daimoku with a trashy shity mind only
enforces hell-fire, anger, and delusion. It is called showing yourself your
mind. It is called your awakening. It ALL has its place! Sometimes we have
to be squeezed through the shit to see just how much the chosen path was not
worth the trouble.
I am reminded from a friend in Nipponzon Myohoji who was 'agasp' at someone
who criticized another in the pronunciation of Odaimoku. It was unthinkable
to him.
Who is to say and who is to judge? It will always be the heart that chants,
the spirit that honors, and the mind that contemplates Myohorengekyo.
Personal preference is simply preference.
I enjoy fast, slow, silent, loud and screaming, depending on my mood.
Sometimes a throbbing beat, fast and intense is the only reflection I can
gather to smash through shitty thinking. The thought of holier-than-thou
funeral dredge would only accentuate shitty thought and certainly not serve
*me* well.
There are times completely reversed when slow & melodic is the only speed
that matches my heart and appreciation to Eternal Buddha and Myohorengekyo.
Why is it such a concern?
To say fast or slow is better or worse is like saying Odaimoku is limited to
only one segment of society. It is not.
jv
his own opinion
la.nichirenshu.org
Shane52462
I completely agree with everything you said below...I simply made the
observation that I, personnally, found it difficult to keep up with SGI's
really fast chanting. [Which is not to say that it is any less sincere or
effective]. I also made the observation that in a group setting it might be
easier for everyone to keep up when the pace is kept a little slower. It was
merely a personal observation, not an attack. Best Wishes!
Shane52462
I wonder if any of them ever had flattened them out??>>
No more bead rubbing? Really??
Clark Barr
Yeah, but SGI is pushing to revise and shorten gongyo. I remember
seeing this discussed on the IRG board six months ago--now they only
want to recite A B and C once, hyperchant daimoku and get it out of
the way.
Burger King Buddhism--I'll have 1 a and 2 c's. Hold the b...
Sickening...
Clark B
Fred
Some things you just can't give up :-)
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> wrote in message
news:20010617220023...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Shane52462
discussed on the IRG board six months ago--now they only want to recite A B and
C once, hyperchant daimoku and get it out of the way. Burger King
Buddhism--I'll have 1 a and 2 c's. Hold the b...Sickening...Clark B>>
FYI:
I heard that discussed as well. I think the intention of that would be to leave
more time for Daimoku chanting. [Which I think is supposed to be the primary
practice]. I haven't seen any sign of that actually happening though. It sounds
like SGI maybe the only group that has that particular style of chanting,
though... Peace!
Shane52462
can't give up :-)>>
Who's they? NST or SGI? I know SGI still does the bead rubbing, and I never
really could relate...which doesn't meant that I'm saying there's anything
wrong with it. But is this done commonly in NST? thx.
Fred
certainly not with the same zeal as SGI folks :-)
Personally, I find it distracting. I would think if one is trying to get
the Buddha's attention, chanting Daimoku would work just as well :-)
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> wrote in message
news:20010617220941...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Doppelganger39
>From: "Fred" fredw...@netzero.nojunk.net
>Date: 6/17/01 10:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <9gjnj8$emh$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>
..........on that
>I also remember being told to chant at the speed of a galloping horse in SGI,
which was supposed to exemplify the middle-way..now whether that horse was
galloping fast or slow???? Many a bead was broken in the effort to chant with
ichinen and determination....some people stil chant very loudly and almost
drown out everyone else...it's not so easy to chant together..because we are
all feeling/thinking something different that was another reason I think SGI
always had specific daimoku goals ...to try to unify the members......but as jv
said it really reflects your life condition and thinking from moment to moment.
d
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
nsbud...@hotmail.com
"Clark Barr" <clar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Yeah, but SGI is pushing to revise and shorten gongyo. I remember
> seeing this discussed on the IRG board six months ago--now they only
> want to recite A B and C once, hyperchant daimoku and get it out of
> the way.
>
> Burger King Buddhism--I'll have 1 a and 2 c's. Hold the b...
>
> Sickening...
>
> Clark B
What I find so funny about this, is that fast food dharma with get you fast
food results.. LOL. It *is* sickening, because there is no heart, there is
no joy. Yet how much joy and heart is there in following pseudo
prescriptions of the Daishoinin?
I find SGI and NSS funny in this. Nichiren Shonin chanted the whole sutra.
His stress was Odaimoku, JuryoHon, HobenPon, 15-22, Maka Shikan, in about
that same order. Why not follow his example and do what you can do,
*whenever* you can, and do it with joy and appreciation.
... hyperchant... LOL...
... holier than thou abc's, aabcabccda,aa bb cc.... you crack me up!
nsbud...@hotmail.com
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> wrote:
> JV:
> I completely agree with everything you said below...I simply made the
> observation that I, personnally, found it difficult to keep up with SGI's
> really fast chanting. [Which is not to say that it is any less sincere or
> effective]. I also made the observation that in a group setting it might
be
> easier for everyone to keep up when the pace is kept a little slower. It
was
> merely a personal observation, not an attack. Best Wishes!
>
"It might be easier" -- but, I question the rational for slower being
better. I practice with a temple that almost always recites slowly. I was
shocked that some could not chant at a moderate gallop. If I look at my
preists who chant the entire sutra, the thought of doing slow melodic
chanting throughout its entirety seems incomprehensible. I like the mix.
And actually think it is good idea to push a bit. My only aversion would be
mindless chanting whether fast or slow.
Be well...
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> I completely agree with everything you said below...I simply made the
> observation that I, personnally, found it difficult to keep up with SGI's
> really fast chanting. [Which is not to say that it is any less sincere or
> effective]. I also made the observation that in a group setting it might be
> easier for everyone to keep up when the pace is kept a little slower. It was
> merely a personal observation, not an attack. Best Wishes!
I much prefer Nichiren Shoshu's slower, precise pronunciation of the
Lotus Sutra and the Daimoku. Our Priests emphasise correct
pronunciation as well as the correct attitude in the presence of
Gohonzon.
To me, SGI's frantic, nasal chanting seemed to border on hysteria. I
thought this even when I belonged to the gakkai.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> This was a bad habit many of us picked up in the SGI.
Rubbing the juzu beads (rosary) is another gakkai bad habit.
In Nichiren Shoshu, we are instructed to hold them calmly between clasped palms.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Mr T
shane...@aol.comspamless (Shane52462) wrote:
It is considered disrepectful to rub beads in Nichiren Shoshu.
--
Kurt
Cody
"Shane52462" <shane...@aol.comspamless> escribió
The beads are not to be rubbed. The only reason, IMHO, that SGI encourages
that is to sell more beads and because they have no respect for Buddhism.
Keeping your hands together symbolizes the Mutual Possession of the Ten
Worlds.
Cody
Patric Patterson
>
ACK!
Thats how I first learned to chant, and I am so glad to have learned to slow
down...
--Patrick
"The way your heart sounds
makes all the difference
its what decides if you'll endure the pain that we all feel"
--Dream Theatre
Mr T
shane...@aol.comspamless (Shane52462) wrote:
From the new Nichiren Shoshu Basics book:
"When we use the beads, we twist them over once, forming a figure eight.
The end of the figure eight with the three strands is placed over the
middle finger of the right hand, and the end with the two strands, over
the middle finger of the left. The short strands lie on the outside of
the hands which are placed together with palms and fingers touching.
Between the father and mother beads are 108 of a smaller size. As
mentioned, these represent earthly desires. You will also find four
still smaller beads. They are opposite each other, two being seven beads
away from the end with two strands, and the other two are fourteen beads
beyond the first two.
These four small beads represent the four leaders of the Bodhisattvas of
the Earth‹Jogyo, Muhengyo, Jyogyo, and Anryugyo‹and also indicate the
four virtues of the Buddhaąs life. These are eternity, happiness, true
self, and purity. Directly under the father bead, which is at the end
with two tassels, is a smaller bead. This represents the essential
nature of the Law, the eternal, absolute truth.
The strands which hang from the outside of the middle fingers represent
ichinen sanzen. The two strands of ten beads each which hang from the
left signify the ten worlds and their mutual possession. Of the three
strands which hang on the right side, the two strands with five beads
each together signify the ten factors.
Because of their profound significance, you should treat your prayer
beads with respect, just as you would the Buddha. To understand the
meaning of the beads is to begin to understand the profundity of
Buddhism, the correct practice, and the reason for expressing gratitude
to the Three Great Secret Laws and the Three Treasures."
--
Kurt
MarcInMD
Lotus Sutra and the Daimoku. Our Priests emphasise correct
pronunciation as well as the correct attitude in the presence of
Gohonzon.
<
Yeah..much better suited for funerals and the like when people are sad and
discoruaged and have no enthusiasm left in em.
Nichiren Sho Shu was poorly organized funeral buddhist sect before they were
lifted out of obscurity by Toda. Muribund sects who live for the next
parishoner to kick off so they have something to do, often chant real real
slow.
Snore
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> I much prefer Nichiren Shoshu's slower, precise pronunciation of the
> Lotus Sutra and the Daimoku. Our Priests emphasise correct
> pronunciation as well as the correct attitude in the presence of
> Gohonzon.
> <
>
> Yeah..much better suited for funerals and the like when people are sad and
> discoruaged and have no enthusiasm left in em.
Slower tempo does NOT mean discouragement or lack of enthusiasm.
> Nichiren Sho Shu was poorly organized funeral buddhist sect before they were
> lifted out of obscurity by Toda. Muribund sects who live for the next
> parishoner to kick off so they have something to do, often chant real real
> slow.
Here Marc demonstrates his animosity toward Nichiren Shoshu. Nichiren
Shoshu Priests and lay believers have plenty of joie de vivre. One
must wonder why Marc feels the need to lie about us. He has no
credibility.
Nichiren Daishonin wrote about the benefit of Tobas. Does HBS not
conduct funeral services for its deceased members?
> Snore
Snore to your arrogant, insulting posts.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Cody
"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" <dere...@netscape.net> escribió
> > Snore
>
> Snore to your arrogant, insulting posts.
>
> Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Really!
Cody
Fred
"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" <dere...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:35f999f2.01061...@posting.google.com...
> marc...@aol.com (MarcInMD) wrote in message
news:<20010618132310...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>
> > I much prefer Nichiren Shoshu's slower, precise pronunciation of the
> > Lotus Sutra and the Daimoku. Our Priests emphasise correct
> > pronunciation as well as the correct attitude in the presence of
> > Gohonzon.
> > <
> >
> > Yeah..much better suited for funerals and the like when people are sad
and
> > discoruaged and have no enthusiasm left in em.
>
> Slower tempo does NOT mean discouragement or lack of enthusiasm.
>
slowly so as to enunciate each shyllable; I believe that each syllable (or
even character) is the Buddha himself.
I can also tell you that other Buddhist sects that chant sutras also chant
them slowly, purposefully and respectfully. Far as I am concerned, there is
no reason to rush through it. Rushing does not guarantee that one reaches
enlightenment faster :-)
Fred
MarcInMD
conduct funeral services for its deceased members?
<
When someone calls a sect "Funeral Buddhist" it does not mean that they are
against funerals. It means that the sect is moribund , and does little more
than funerals. This was exactly the situation with the "One True Sect" ,
"Nichiren" Sho Shu. They had no future until Toda worked em up into a Modern
Japanese Health Wealth and Happiness cult. Eventually even the SGI got grossed
out. They will now revert to form. Sleepy, disinteresed, a business, meant to
keep Temples open and Priests eating well rather than a group full of lay
members eager to spread the Dharma.
Dont forget, Ive been to NST "Shakabuku" meetings....Snore... The "slow
chanting" is no surprise
MarcInMD
>
> Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Really!
Cody<<
I thought you were ignoring me Cody. You cant even keep your word for an hour.
richard.durham1
Im an ex Gakkai member - no bad habits here.
Nothing wrong with the odd rubbing of the juzu beads now and again to aid
the concentration of chanting the daimoku, and pulling ones life back
together again in front of Gohonzon....ones mind does wander during daimoku
at times you know...or am I seriously wrong here, or has NST forgotten this?
Trivial issue though.....unless your doing it constantly...then its annoying
to listen to for others IMO.
RJD
Independant
"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" <dere...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:35f999f2.01061...@posting.google.com...
Fred
"richard.durham1" <richard...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:16wX6.32209$A45.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Bad Habit? ROFLMAO
>
> Im an ex Gakkai member - no bad habits here.
>
> Nothing wrong with the odd rubbing of the juzu beads now and again to aid
> the concentration of chanting the daimoku, and pulling ones life back
> together again in front of Gohonzon....ones mind does wander during
daimoku
> at times you know...or am I seriously wrong here, or has NST forgotten
this?
> Trivial issue though.....unless your doing it constantly...then its
annoying
> to listen to for others IMO.
>
beads. It can be extremely distracting.
CB
>Bad Habit? ROFLMAO
>Im an ex Gakkai member - no bad habits here.
>Nothing wrong with the odd rubbing of the juzu beads now and again to aid
>the concentration of chanting the daimoku, and pulling ones life back
>together again in front of Gohonzon....ones mind does wander during daimoku
>at times you know...or am I seriously wrong here, or has NST forgotten this?
>Trivial issue though
Rubbing your beads makes them fall apart eventually.
Is that really trivial?
I've used the same set of beads for 10 years, since
I learned not to rub them.
How long do your beads last Richard?
C
StrawberryYin
many in NST say they do it slow and don't. I think that if you ennunciate it
does not matter the speed. I think that rubbing your beads together is nerves
probably..I dont blame you being in SGI rofl...
You know who
StrawberryYin
Yeah right!
You know who
MarcInMD
many in NST say they do it slow and don't. I think that if you ennunciate it
does not matter the speed. <
That actually is the correct answer. Sometimes people chant really slow in
order to appear pious or more dignified. The fact is, Nichiren Buddhism is
based on the power of faith not a magic sentence that you have to say just
right
The fact remains that lively enthusiam is far more correct then deliberate
pronounciation except if you go so fast that you sound like a buzzing bee.
Try putting a little pep into your Daimoku and stop worring if you are doing
something exactly right or wrong. You will notice the differnece right away.
We have a fairly new member who in LA who recently quit Nichien Sho Shu and
joined HBS. She said that when she first went to the HBS temple it was the
first time she had really enjoyed chanting Daimoku and never looked back after
that.
The first time I chanted Daimoku with a room full of Japanese HBS members, I
thought the neighbors were going to complain. When it was over, my comment was
someting like "Dang...Rock and Roll"
It was then that I realized what a benefit it was to be a member of HBS, all
doctrines aside.
Your life reflects your practice and your practice reflects your life. Slow and
plodding will yield the same. Happy, enthusiastic and upbeat will manifest in
your life as well.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> Your life reflects your practice and your practice reflects your life. Slow and
> plodding will yield the same. Happy, enthusiastic and upbeat will manifest in
> your life as well.
In Nichiren Shoshu, we chant Daimoku "like a flowing river." It need
not be excessively slow or excessively fast. We always strive to
chant with sincere appreciation to the Three Treasures of Nichiren
Shoshu.
I'm not sure why you think that slower Daimoku can not be happy,
enthusiastic and upbeat.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Cody
"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" <dere...@netscape.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:35f999f2.01061...@posting.google.com...
Because Marc is bound and determined to slander Nichiren Shoshu and will
grasp at any straw.
Cody
richard.durham1
better)
dont do it that much any more...dont need to really
R
"CB" <jqpu...@jamthespam.net> wrote in message
news:3b2e9fde...@news.netnitco.net...
MarcInMD
enthusiastic and upbeat.
<
Because it doesnt sound that way. Being peppy on the inside is fine and well
but showing it physically is better.
I have been with elderly HBS members in their upper eighties and ninties who
chant like their hair is on fire. Having done both, this seemed not just
better, but remarkedly better.
MarcInMD
grasp at any straw.
Cody
<
Well.....their is an aweful lot to chose from
Found that Dai-Gohonzon Gosho yet Cody?
Foon
news:20010619085204...@ng-ma1.aol.com...
I've met quite a few Buddhists over the years who were always manically
"peppy". As with faith like fire, most burned out quickly. But you seem to
embrace the philosophy of Fernando Lamas (Billy Crystal) on Sat. Night Live,
"It's always better to look good than to feel good."
There is much to recommend calmness and a respectful decorum when dealing
with Buddhism (and life in general). As the Daishonin said on many
occasions in various ways, "Remain calm and continue to offer prayers."
- Foon
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> I'm not sure why you think that slower Daimoku can not be happy,
> enthusiastic and upbeat.
> <
>
> Because it doesnt sound that way. Being peppy on the inside is fine and well
> but showing it physically is better.
The Hare Krishnas dance while they chant their mantras. Maybe you
could try that at your next HBS meeting.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
MarcInMD
The thing to remember is that Nichiren Sho Shu does not really chant the
Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. They only chant words that sound like the Daimoku.
In the first place, in Nichiren's day, the Daimoku was pronouned completely
differently than the way it sounds today. So... ..PRONOUNCIATION ...is not so
central to Nichren Buddhism. What is central is the development of faith.
So since Nichhiren Sho Shu propagates a faith contrary to Nichren Buddhism,
their Daimoku could be seen as worthless. But even worse, Nichiren Sho Shu says
that the Lotus Sutra is to be "refuted" ( which is the opposite of Nichiren
Buddhism which is based on faith in the Lotus Sutra). So when you chant Daimoku
with Nichiren Sho Shu, each repitition is an act of refutation of the Lotus
Sutrs and its title. With each repition you get further away from enlightenmt
and do mor and more damage to yourself as you add to your rejection of the
Lotus Sutra.
So chanting the Daimoku fast or slow is a small isssue compared to the matter
of chanting Daimoku in the context of heresy, which ultimately leads to hell.
Cody
"Derek N.P.F. Juhl" <dere...@netscape.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:35f999f2.01061...@posting.google.com...
Yeah, and they could sprinkle some holy water over each other ...
Cody
CB
>> but showing it physically is better.
>The Hare Krishnas dance while they chant their mantras. Maybe you
>could try that at your next HBS meeting.
>Derek N.P.F. Juhl
SGI members are also very peppy.
You can get Marc out of SGI but you can't get the SGI
out of Marc
CB
>> could try that at your next HBS meeting.
>> Derek N.P.F. Juhl
>Yeah, and they could sprinkle some holy water over each other ...
>Cody
Maybe it's the holy water that makes the Honmon BS so peppy
richard.durham1
Nichirens day?
just curious
RJD
"MarcInMD" <marc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010619145233...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
Cody
back then.
Cody
"richard.durham1" <richard...@ntlworld.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:9PNX6.4252$Kj.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Mr T
marc...@aol.com (MarcInMD) wrote:
> The thing to remember is that Nichiren Sho Shu does not really chant the
> Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. They only chant words that sound like the
> Daimoku.
>
<plonk>
finally
--
Kurt
MarcInMD
Nichirens day?
just curious<
Mr. Lamont, an expert in Asian Languages, said it for me once. I wouldnt even
try to write it out since it was some time ago , but if I get the chance, I
will ask again and report back.
MarcInMD
back the<
Whew... Lost your thinking cap again did ya?
When will you keep your promise to ignore me Cody?. Its only been one day for
gosh sakes.
MarcInMD
><plonk>
>
>finally
>
>--
>Kurt
Very brave.
Nichiren's whole method was to put faith in the Lotus Sutra
But Nichiren Sho Shu says the Lotus Sutra is no good anymore and when they
chant , they are "refuting it" ( their words).
Sounds like somthing no one should be doing.
If a person in another religion said they were chanting the Daimoku as a way to
bring about Union with Christ or Muhammed or somehting like that, would they be
chanting the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra ?
If a sect says the Lotus Sutra is being
"refuted" and "smashed" when you chant with them, are they any better?
I dont think so. Its not real Daimoku. Its Chanting Daimoku in opposition to
the Lotus Suta and...frankly...not a good thing. Not good at all.
MarcInMD
{{Notice how the Nichiren Sho Shu members cant make a doctrinal argument and
just take pot shots ?}}}
richard.durham1
Should be interesting...
RJD
"MarcInMD" <marc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010619162423...@ng-xc1.aol.com...
CB
>But Nichiren Sho Shu says the Lotus Sutra is no good anymore and when they
>chant , they are "refuting it" ( their words).
Honmon B.S. says that daily Gongyo isn't necessary
Cody
Cody
"MarcInMD" <marc...@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:20010619162625...@ng-xc1.aol.com...
This guy thinks I am talking "to" him when I am talking "about" him.
"Ignore" was not the right word. I will watch you; don't you worry. You're
dangerous and steeped in hate you learned from Ikeda towards Nichiren
Shoshu.
Why don't you go to a Sakyamuni board like a good little provisional
Mahayana Buddhist?
Cody
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> SGI members are also very peppy.
> You can get Marc out of SGI but you can't get the SGI
> out of Marc
I was thinking the same thing. Funny how Marc extols fast Daimoku and
insults Nichiren Shoshu as "funeral Buddhism" due to our slower (not
slow) pace. I'm surprised he doesn't pine for roller skating
pyramids.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
MarcInMD
Er..No..I wrote an opinion about one of the central idea's of Nichiren Sho Shu
which is:
" The Shakumon smashes the Nizen ( other Sutra's) the Homon Smashes the
Shakumon and the Daimoku Smashes the Honmon."
So smashing and refuting the Lotus Sutra is done by enemies of Nichiren
Buddhism not by anyone who idetifes themselves with Nichiren.
You had no reply except more silly comments. I'm of course, not very surprised.
MarcInMD
HBS and SGI have some very important things in common. We are both lay-member
organized and led sects that have thrown off funeral buddhism .
Thats a good thing Derek
CB
>> You can get Marc out of SGI but you can't get the SGI
>> out of Marc
>I was thinking the same thing. Funny how Marc extols fast Daimoku and
>insults Nichiren Shoshu as "funeral Buddhism" due to our slower (not
>slow) pace. I'm surprised he doesn't pine for roller skating
>pyramids.
>Derek N.P.F. Juhl
But to be fair, I don't think we can blame Marc's behavior on the
honmon B.S. Marc's problems began way before his stint with h B.S.
But he does seem a little more edgy than he used to be.
C
CB
Sounds like a homeless boy- "I don't need any parents! I can
do anything I wish and nobody tells me what to do -- I'm totally FREE!!!"
Cody
You mean you have nothing to do with Buddhism at all.
Cody
MarcInMD
do anything I wish and nobody tells me what to do -- I'm totally FREE!!!"<
Yes, its a lot like Nichiren when he left Dozembo and later when he left the
Tendai Shu and went it alone. The Sutra predicts that its true followers will
be scorned and thrown from their Temples.
I suppose you have a regular spot in a pew where you sit every Sunday Craig.
Maybe as you get older and older they can turn down the airconditining for you
and find a nice soft pillow to put under your ass.
MarcInMD
Oh ...and still no doctrianl comments I see.
And I'm still not surpirsed.
Cody
there were no pews.
So maybe Strumpf´s problem is that he is getting old and senile and confuses
the Catholic Church with Nichiren Shoshu.
Cody
"MarcInMD" <marc...@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:20010620102141...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
MarcInMD
reply was put up in only four minutes.
No backbone to resist and stand by your promise?
Cody
Cody
"MarcInMD" <marc...@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:20010620111238...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
jussi
you rub the beads while chanting with other people the sound they hear
coming from you will actually distract them from their fusion with the
Gohonzon. As you are concentrating with your whole mind and body to be one
with the Buddha and to see the Buddha it is very annoying to be brought
"back" by some person sitting next to you "aiding" their own concentration.
I think you should be more mindful of others you are chanting with. If you
have trouble concentrating you should not bother others with this. You
should concentrate with your mind and listen to the sound of your own voice
reverberate through your own body while still being able to hear the person
who is leading the recitation...so no screaming Gongyos either...
Jussi.
"richard.durham1" <richard...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:16wX6.32209$A45.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Bad Habit? ROFLMAO
>
> Im an ex Gakkai member - no bad habits here.
>
> Nothing wrong with the odd rubbing of the juzu beads now and again to aid
> the concentration of chanting the daimoku, and pulling ones life back
> together again in front of Gohonzon....ones mind does wander during
daimoku
> at times you know...or am I seriously wrong here, or has NST forgotten
this?
> Trivial issue though.....unless your doing it constantly...then its
annoying
> to listen to for others IMO.
>
> RJD
> Independant
> "Derek N.P.F. Juhl" <dere...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:35f999f2.01061...@posting.google.com...
> > Mr T <ne...@bobco.com> wrote in message
> news:<nert-A0DBF0.1...@nnrp4-w.snfc21.pbi.net>...
> >
> > > This was a bad habit many of us picked up in the SGI.
> >
> > Rubbing the juzu beads (rosary) is another gakkai bad habit.
> >
> > In Nichiren Shoshu, we are instructed to hold them calmly between
clasped
> palms.
> >
> > Derek N.P.F. Juhl
>
>
richard.durham1
Hyvää paivä - long time no see.
I last met you in '89 at Taplow Court (if youre the right person Im thinking
of from Finland) so thought your name was familiar.
Well I cant say that anyone who rubs their beads has ever really annoyed me
that much: now it shouldnt really interfere if I am fully concentrating on
the Gohonzon, and thats when I know Im not paying attention - when others
seem to annoy me. I dont rub the juzu that much myself either since its
something Ive rather grown out of over the years.
Have you ever used them to count daimoku as you chant?
Screaming Gongyo? er...well I dont think so, but that can be annoying at
times if someone else seems to have a lot more volume than I have (and I
dont have a lot of volume!) and drowns me out. It depends on unity as a
group perhaps where people should try and be in rythm with each other, and
the ceremony they are performing together.
I dont know what else to add really.
all the best
Richard
"jussi" <hokkeko...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:go7Y6.59297$J25.7...@news1.cableinet.net...
jussi
I became far more concious of things such as bead rubbing when I joined
Hokkeko as Gongyo is quieter and more peaceful I quess. There is a huge
difference in the whole athmosphere I think between the style of practise of
the two sects.
Yes I do at times use the beads to count in the old fashioned way (we have
guidance on how to do this properly..i.e use only one side and skip over the
small boddhisattva beads etc....I found it very helpful when doing 3000 a
day for three months as I wanted the number to be exact each day...I am a
bit obsessive about such things...)
I am trying to cast my mind back as to who you are but I have drawn a blank
I 'm sorry...it's like a different lifetime for me now and I have changed a
lot since leaving SGI...for the better I hope...
If you want you can always e-mail me privately as I don't like discussing
myself here as I am not that interesting a person....
Jussi.
"richard.durham1" <richard...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:9V7Y6.8289$Kj.14...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
richard.durham1
I will drop you a line and jog your memory lol.
best
Richard
"jussi" <hokkeko...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Qa8Y6.60023$J25.7...@news1.cableinet.net...
MarcInMD
Cody<
Okay..Then Define the word "Ignore"
Oh never mind
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> HBS and SGI have some very important things in common. We are both lay-member
> organized and led sects that have thrown off funeral buddhism.
>
> Thats a good thing Derek
You don't have funerals for your deceased members?
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> But to be fair, I don't think we can blame Marc's behavior on the
> honmon B.S. Marc's problems began way before his stint with h B.S.
> But he does seem a little more edgy than he used to be.
Indeed he does. His posts become more militant every day.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
MarcInMD
When you hear a sect is "Funeral Buddhist" it means that it is moribund and its
Priests sit around all day and wait for the next parisioner to die so they can
make themselves useful. It also implies that they are not centerd on
propagation or care much about about thier lay membership but are instead more
concerned about "the Temple Race" to get better carreers at bigger temples and
better positions in the sects beuracracy...Stuff like that.. It doesnt mean
that funerals are not important.
Cody
"MarcInMD" <marc...@aol.com> escribió
Oh, thank you. Your description of a "funeral sect" has nothing to do with
Nichiren Shoshu. Nothing.
Cody
Richard W. Torgerson
>From: dere...@netscape.net (Derek N.P.F. Juhl)
>Date: 6/21/01 12:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <35f999f2.01062...@posting.google.com>
Just scanned through this entire thread, which on my newsgroup settings were
about 80 posts over three days. I note with interest that although Marc did
raise a very serious doctrinal point about NST chanting the Sutra to "refute"
the Sutra, there has been no reply, no correction, no explanation, no nothing
except for literally a dozen or more ad hominem attacks on the person.
I must conclude from this that NST members agree that YES indeed they do in
fact chant the Sutra to refute the Sutra and that the only thing that bothers
all of you about this is that you don't like people who point that out.
Regards,
Richard
http://www.butsuryushu.org/
(to reply via e-mail, remove nospam from the address)
Cody
"Richard W. Torgerson" <rtorg...@aol.comnospam> escribió
> I must conclude from this that NST members agree that YES indeed they do
in
> fact chant the Sutra to refute the Sutra and that the only thing that
bothers
> all of you about this is that you don't like people who point that out.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
Nichiren Buddhism 101. There are three "Lotus Sutras", the one "by"
Sakyamuni is the one for the era of Shoho; the Maka Shinkan, the Lotus Sutra
for Zoho;and, the Dai Gohonzon and the Daimoku, the Lotus Sutra for Mappo.
Taking this basic concept, reciting the Lotus Sutra "written" by Sakyamuni
is not to refute it but to use it to praise the Dai Gohonzon.
Those, like you and Marc, that say we "refute" the Lotus Sutra only show
your ignorance and bias against Nichiren Shoshu.
Cody
Richard W. Torgerson
>your ignorance and bias against Nichiren Shoshu.
>
Talk to your own priests then about ignorance:
"The significance of our recitation of the Hoben and Juryo Chapters for
the sake of Buddhist practice, then, is as follows: The recitation of the
Hoben Chapter is first, recitation "for the sake of refutation," and
second, recitation "to borrow the words." The first of these, recitation
"for the sake of refutation" means that we read the Hoben Chapter in
order to refute all the sutras, since Shakyamuni's Buddhism is not
the Buddhism for the age of Mappo." -Explanation of the Hoben Chapter by
Reverend Kanno Tajima and Reverend Rikido Takeyasu, found in "Articles,
Lectures and Experiences" on the NST official website.
Cody
"Richard W. Torgerson" <rtorg...@aol.comnospam> escribió en el mensaje
news:20010621101456...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
You're hung up on semantics, Richard.
He is talking about the fact that the "Lotus Sutra" for Mappo is not the one
"written" by Sakyamuni. So, in essence, I suppose you're right; we do refute
the one "written" by Sakyamuni. In the Hoben chapter, as you should know, he
says "Honesty discard the provisional sutras" (or something to that effect).
In Mappo, that means the Lotus Sutra "written" by Sakyamuni and all the
other sutras as well and to only embrace the Three Great Secret Laws and the
Three Treasures.
Cody
Cody
"Cody" <mc...@ono.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:MrnY6.43$%O2....@m2newsread.uni2.es...
And, Richard, when you consider that the Lotus Sutra for Mappo is the Dai
Gohonzon, we DON'T refute the Lotus Sutra.
Cody
Richard W. Torgerson
>Sakyamuni is the one for the era of Shoho; the Maka Shinkan, the Lotus Sutra
>for Zoho;and, the Dai Gohonzon and the Daimoku, the Lotus Sutra for Mappo.
>
Nonsense. Utter complete, cult-brainwashed nonsense. Nichiren Daishi tells us
over and over again to uphold the Lotus Sutra without substitutes, alterations
or re-inventions. Consider what Lotus Sutra he is talking about:
"One fundamental myo or mystic principle underlies every one of the 69,384
characters that make up the Lotus Sutra. Hence the Lotus Sutra comprises a
total of 69,384 mystic principles." The Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. How many
characters does the Maka Shikan have Cody? Notice also the use of present
tense in the Daishonin's words in all of the Gosho quotes contained in this
post, (taken from the NSIC translations on Kallender's site.)
Even in "The One Essential Phrase" he defines the Odaimoku as containing all of
the meaning of the Lotus, not that the Odaimoku suuplants or replaces the Lotus
Sutra. Again, what Lotus Sutra is he talking about? The one that meets this
description: "the entire sutra consisting of all eight volumes, twenty-eight
chapters and 69,384 characters " The One Essential Phrase.
In the Offering of the Summer Robe this same description is repeated: "Your
summer robe has been offered to the Buddhas of the 69,384 characters that
compose the Lotus Sutra. Thus, it is equivalent to 69,384 robes. And as every
one of these 69,384 Buddhas encompasses all 69,384 characters of the sutra, it
is as though you had offered that many robes to each of them. "
In the Outline of the 22nd Chapter, Nichiren Daishi explains: "Then, Jogyo,
the gods of the sun and moon, and the others received the Buddha's auspicious
command and pledged to propagate the Lotus Sutra in the latter age." Which
Lotus Sutra is he talking about? He says in the same Gosho, so there is no
mistake which Lotus Sutra he is referring to: "Each of the 69,384 characters of
the twenty-eight chapters of the Lotus Sutra is like a crown prince and is the
seed of a Buddha." So Jogyo and the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are to propagate
the Lotus Sutra of 69,384 characters and 28 chapters.
In Letter to Horen, Nichiren Daishi makes no mistake about which Lotus Sutra he
is referring to. He even cites T'ien T'ai, the author of the Maka Shikan
(claimed by NST to be the Lotus Sutra of his age) in affirming the same thing:
"As for the characters of the Lotus Sutra, a blind person cannot see them at
all. A person with the eyes of a common mortal sees them as black in color.
Persons in the two vehicles see them as void. Bodhisattvas see various
different colors in them, while a person whose seeds of Buddhahood have reached
full maturity sees them as Buddhas. So the sutra states: "If one can uphold
this [sutra], he will be upholding the Buddha’s body."32 And T’ien-t’ai
says: "This sutra of Myoho-renge-kyo, before which I bow my head, in its single
case, with its eight scrolls, twenty-eight chapters, and 69,384 characters, is
in each and everyone of its characters the true Buddha, who preaches the Law
for the benefit of living beings."
So those who see the Lotus Sutra as "powerless" in Mappo, as the NST priests
have maintained through their tortured translation of the Gosho, are seeing
them as void and are thus denounced by the Daishonin himself as being of the
two vehicles. For those who didn't bring their crib notes with them, this is a
bad thing.
So right from the start NST doctrine flies directly in the face of the repeated
words and teachings of the man whom they supposedly worship as a kami diety
fused with a plank of wood.
No thanks. I'll take Nichiren Buddhism instead.
Richard W. Torgerson
a more readable copy:
Subject: Re: Why chant so fast? Why NOT... its all in heart that chants~(^)~
From: rtorg...@aol.comnospam (Richard W. Torgerson)
Date: 6/21/01 10:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <20010621103718...@ng-bj1.aol.com>
>Nichiren Buddhism 101. There are three "Lotus Sutras", the one "by"
>Sakyamuni is the one for the era of Shoho; the Maka Shinkan, the Lotus Sutra
>for Zoho;and, the Dai Gohonzon and the Daimoku, the Lotus Sutra for Mappo.
>
Nonsense. Utter complete, cult-brainwashed nonsense. Nichiren Daishi tells us
over and over again to uphold the Lotus Sutra without substitutes, alterations
or re-inventions. Consider what Lotus Sutra he is talking about:
"One fundamental myo or mystic principle underlies every one of the 69,384
characters that make up the Lotus Sutra. Hence the Lotus Sutra comprises a
total of 69,384 mystic principles." The Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. How many
characters does the Maka Shikan have Cody? Notice also the use of present
tense in the Daishonin's words in all of the Gosho quotes contained in this
post, (taken from the NSIC translations on Kallender's site.)
Even in "The One Essential Phrase" he defines the Odaimoku as containing all of
the meaning of the Lotus Sutra, not that the Odaimoku supplants or replaces the
Lotus
Sutra. Again, what Lotus Sutra is he talking about? The one that meets this
description: "the entire sutra consisting of all eight volumes, twenty-eight
chapters and 69,384 characters " The One Essential Phrase.
In the Offering of the Summer Robe this same description is repeated: "Your
summer robe has been offered to the Buddhas of the 69,384 characters that
compose the Lotus Sutra. Thus, it is equivalent to 69,384 robes. And as every
one of these 69,384 Buddhas encompasses all 69,384 characters of the sutra, it
is as though you had offered that many robes to each of them. "
In the Outline of the 22nd Chapter, Nichiren Daishi explains: "Then, Jogyo,
the gods of the sun and moon, and the others received the Buddha's auspicious
command and pledged to propagate the Lotus Sutra in the latter age." Which
Lotus Sutra is he talking about? He says in the same Gosho, so there is no
mistake which Lotus Sutra he is referring to: "Each of the 69,384 characters of
the twenty-eight chapters of the Lotus Sutra is like a crown prince and is the
seed of a Buddha." So Jogyo and the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are to propagate
the Lotus Sutra of 69,384 characters and 28 chapters.
In Letter to Horen, Nichiren Daishi makes no mistake about which Lotus Sutra he
is referring to. He even cites T'ien T'ai, the author of the Maka Shikan
(claimed by NST to be the Lotus Sutra of his age)
"As for the characters of the Lotus Sutra, a blind person cannot see them at
all. A person with the eyes of a common mortal sees them as black in color.
Persons in the two vehicles see them as void. Bodhisattvas sattvas see various
Richard W. Torgerson
We'll strain it through notepad first and do it again, repeating only the
garbled paragraph:
""As for the characters of the Lotus Sutra, a blind person cannot see them at
all. A person with the eyes of a common mortal sees them as black in color.
Persons in the two vehicles see them as void. Bodhisattvas see various
different colors in them, while a person whose seeds of Buddhahood have reached
full maturity sees them as Buddhas. So the sutra states: "If one can uphold
this [sutra], he will be upholding the Buddha’s body." And T’ien-t’ai
says: "This sutra of Myoho-renge-kyo, before which I bow my head, in its single
case, with its eight scrolls, twenty-eight chapters, and 69,384 characters, is
in each and everyone of its characters the true Buddha, who preaches the Law
for the benefit of living beings.""
So those who see the Lotus Sutra as "powerless" in Mappo, as the NST priests
have maintained through their tortured translation of the Gosho, are seeing
them as void and are thus denounced by the Daishonin himself as being of the
two vehicles. For those who didn't bring their crib notes with them, this is a
bad thing.
Regards,
Richard W. Torgerson
>"written" by Sakyamuni. So, in essence, I suppose you're right; we do refute
>the one "written" by Sakyamuni. In the Hoben chapter, as you should know, he
>says "Honesty discard the provisional sutras" (or something to that effect).
>In Mappo, that means the Lotus Sutra "written" by Sakyamuni and all the
>other sutras as well and to only embrace the Three Great Secret Laws and the
>Three Treasures.
>
>Cody
Thank you for the admission. There is no way under the sun that Nichiren
Daishi or Shakyamuni ever meant the Lotus Sutra itself to be one of the
provisional Sutras. In authentic Nichiren Buddhism, we uphold the real Lotus
Sutra. What do you call your new revisionist religion Cody?
Richard W. Torgerson
>Gohonzon, we DON'T refute the Lotus Sutra.
>
>Cody
Well thank you for the additional admission. No Cody, I will NOT consider that
a plank of wood carved a couple hundred years after Nichiren Daishi's time is
the actual Lotus Sutra. Instead I will let Nichiren Daishi's teachings tell me
what the Lotus Sutra really is. What do you call your new religion Cody,
Nichikan Buddhism perhaps? You might want to get together with the descendents
of those folks in the Bible who worshipped that golden calf. I see many
similarities and it might be a rich source of new members for your group.
Cody
"Richard W. Torgerson" <rtorg...@aol.comnospam> escribió en el mensaje
> >And, Richard, when you consider that the Lotus Sutra for Mappo is the Dai
> >Gohonzon, we DON'T refute the Lotus Sutra.
> >
> >Cody
>
> Well thank you for the additional admission. No Cody, I will NOT consider
that
> a plank of wood carved a couple hundred years after Nichiren Daishi's time
is
> the actual Lotus Sutra. Instead I will let Nichiren Daishi's teachings
tell me
> what the Lotus Sutra really is. What do you call your new religion Cody,
> Nichikan Buddhism perhaps? You might want to get together with the
descendents
> of those folks in the Bible who worshipped that golden calf. I see many
> similarities and it might be a rich source of new members for your group.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
How much, in the scheme of things, do you think it matters if you, Richard,
don't believe in the Lotus Sutra for Mappo, the Dai Gohonzon?
We have no "new" religion, your denigrating statements notwithstanding.
Cody
Cody
"Richard W. Torgerson" <rtorg...@aol.comnospam> escribió en el mensaje
No, Richard, the "real" Lotus Sutra for Mappo is the Dai Gohonzon.
Cody
Cody
"Richard W. Torgerson" <rtorg...@aol.comnospam> escribió en el mensaje
> Part of my previous post got garbled in an AOL moment. Hopefully this
will be
> a more readable copy:
>
> Subject: Re: Why chant so fast? Why NOT... its all in heart that
chants~(^)~
> From: rtorg...@aol.comnospam (Richard W. Torgerson)
> Date: 6/21/01 10:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time
> Message-id: <20010621103718...@ng-bj1.aol.com>
>
> >Nichiren Buddhism 101. There are three "Lotus Sutras", the one "by"
> >Sakyamuni is the one for the era of Shoho; the Maka Shinkan, the Lotus
Sutra
> >for Zoho;and, the Dai Gohonzon and the Daimoku, the Lotus Sutra for
Mappo.
> >
>
> Nonsense. Utter complete, cult-brainwashed nonsense. Nichiren Daishi
tells us
> over and over again to uphold the Lotus Sutra without substitutes,
alterations
> or re-inventions. Consider what Lotus Sutra he is talking about:
> Regards,
> Richard
Richard, sometimes the Daishonin is referring to the Lotus Sutra written
"by" Sakyamuni. Sometimes he is referring to the Dai Gohonzon but uses the
words "Lotus Sutra". I am sorry to hear that your HBS cult cannot
differentiate between the two.
Cody
Cody
"Richard W. Torgerson" <rtorg...@aol.comnospam> escribió
> Third try. Must be some html gobbledegook I'm pasting along with the
quote.
> We'll strain it through notepad first and do it again, repeating only the
> garbled paragraph:
> Regards,
> Richard
Maybe it isn't AOL but the causes you are making to slander the Lotus Sutra
of Latter Day of the Law, the Dai Gohonzon.
Cody
Richard W. Torgerson
>of Latter Day of the Law, the Dai Gohonzon.
>
If quoting the Gosho is a cause that slanders your religion, that should be
something of concern for you, not me.
Cody
Cody
"Richard W. Torgerson" <rtorg...@aol.comnospam> escribió en el mensaje
news:20010621125121...@ng-bj1.aol.com...