One area in which Liberty is Limited in the Baha'i Community
Mesbah Javid
"In the Kitab-i-Aqdas Baha'u'llah states: "We approve of
liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it
in others."
"One area in which liberty is limited in the Baha'i
community is that governing methods and channels for the
expression of criticism."
[UHJ]
Patrick Henry
> community is that governing methods and channels for the
> expression of criticism."
> [UHJ]
How similar an interpretation to the ayatollahs in Iran, who
are busy now murdering people in the streets....
--
Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!"
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
http://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm
Into the Ruins: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/
Chris Manvell
>
> "In the Kitab-i-Aqdas Baha'u'llah states: "We approve of
>liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it
>in others."
>community is that governing methods and channels for the
>expression of criticism."
> [UHJ]
Dear Mesbah,
When you put up a quote such as the above, please can you also put the
full source reference (I think you usually do). As you will be well
aware, having followed this group for a while, out of context quoting
can be annoying at best and downright misleading at worst. Thus it is
good to be able to a) verify that a quote is genuine and b) able to
reads it in the context in which it was written. As it is, I have not
been able to find the origin of your quote above.
All the best,
Chis
--
Chris Manvell Tel.:+44(0)1471-822 317
Breacais Iosal, Isle of Skye, Scotland. Fax.:+44(0)870-056 8081
Personal Web site: <http://manvell.org.uk/>
Association for Baha'i Studies (English-Speaking Europe):
<www.breacais.demon.co.uk/BSR/> and <www.bahai-library.org/bsr/>
Sgriobtiurean Creidimh nam Baha-i (with English Translations)
<http://www.breacais.demon.co.uk/gaelic/>
Mesbah Javid
have not been able to find the origin of your quote above.
|
Don't worry at all, if you cannot find the source, just
try to find it, this will give you a great opportunity to
find and discover many other beautiful Baha'i Writings.
Mesbah Javid
Baha'u'llah's Message and the means for its establishment.
Baha'u'llah "has not only advocated certain principles, but
has also provided a mechanism where by that ideal can be
established and perpetuated," adherence to both of which by
the friends is essential for "the realization of His goal of
world unity."
Baha'is are "fully entitled to address criticisms to
their Assemblies" and offer their recommendations. When
Baha'is have addressed their criticisms, suggestions and
advice to their Assemblies, including their views "about
policies or individual members of elected bodies," they must
"wholeheartedly accept the advice or decision of the
Assembly."
There is a clear distinction between, on the one
hand, the prohibition of backbiting, which would include
adverse comments about individuals or institutions made to
other individuals privately or publicly, and, on the other
hand, the encouragement to unburden oneself of one's
concerns to a Spiritual Assembly, local or National (or now,
also, to confide in a Counsellor or Auxiliary Board member).
Thus, although one of the principal functions of the
Nineteen Day Feast is to provide a forum for "open and
constructive criticism and deliberation regarding the state
of affairs within the local Baha'i community," complaints
about the actions of an individual member of an Assembly
should be made directly and confidentially to the Assembly
itself, not made to other individuals or even raised at the
Nineteen Day Feast.
While constructive criticism is encouraged,
destructive criticism, such as the pattern of "continually
challenging and criticizing the decisions" of the
Assemblies, prevents the rapid growth of the Faith and
repels those who are yet outside the community. Indeed "all
criticisms and discussions of a negative character which may
result in undermining the authority of the Assembly as a
body should be strictly avoided. For otherwise the order of
the Cause itself will be endangered, and confusion and
discord will reign in the community." "Vicious criticism is
indeed a calamity," the root of which is "lack of faith in
the system of Baha'u'llah" and failure to follow the "Baha'i
laws in voting, in electing, in serving, and in abiding by
Assembly decisions."
The questions of how criticism is expressed and
acted upon in the Baha'i community, and how the spiritual
Assemblies administer justice in regard to individual
believers are but elements of far greater concepts and
should become second nature in the social discourse of
Baha'is. The Baha'i community is an association of
individuals who have voluntarily come together, on
recognizing Baha'u'llah's claim to be the Manifestation of
God for this age, to establish certain patters of personal
and social behavior and to build the institutions that are
to promote these patterns. There are numerous individuals
who share the ideals of the Faith and draw inspiration from
its Teachings, while disagreeing with certain of its
features, but those who actually enter the Baha'i community
have accepted, by their own free will, to follow the
Teachings in their entirety, understanding that, if doubts
and disagreements arise in the process of translating the
Teachings into practice, the final arbiter is, by the
explicit authority of the Revealed Text, the Universal House
of Justice.
It is the ardent prayer of the Universal House of
Justice that any friends who find themselves at odds in this
endeavor will have confidence in the guidance it provides
for them, will renew their study of the Teachings and, for
the sake of Baha'u'llah, strengthen their love for one
another. As the beloved Guardian's secretary wrote on his
behalf to an individual believer on October 25, 1949:
"Without the spirit of real love for Baha'u'llah, for His
Faith and its Institutions, and the believers for each
other, the Cause can never really bring in large numbers of
people. For it is not preaching and rules the world wants,
but love and action." The worldwide undertakings on which
the Cause of God is embarked are far too significant, the
need of the peoples of the world for the Message of
Baha'u'llah far too urgent, the perils facing mankind far
too grave, the progress of events far too swift, to permit
His followers to squander their time and efforts in
fruitless contention. Now, if ever, is the time for love
among the friends, for unity of understanding and endeavor,
for self-sacrifice and service by Baha'is in every part of
the world.
The House of Justice understands and appreciates
your concern for the proper functioning of the Baha'i
community. It urges you to contemplate the issues you raised
in the light of the Teachings themselves, and not to weigh
them with the standards of other philosophies or of any
civil system, the fundamental assumptions of which differ in
many respects from those of Baha'u'llah's divinely conceived
Order.
[UHJ]
Mesbah Javid
hand, the prohibition of backbiting, which would include
adverse comments about individuals or institutions made to
other individuals privately or publicly, and, on the other
hand, the encouragement to unburden oneself of one's
concerns to a Spiritual Assembly, local or National (or now,
also, to confide in a Counsellor or Auxiliary Board member).
Thus, although one of the principal functions of the
Nineteen Day Feast is to provide a forum for "open and
constructive criticism and deliberation regarding the state
of affairs within the local Baha'i community," complaints
about the actions of an individual member of an Assembly
should be made directly and confidentially to the Assembly
itself, not made to other individuals or even raised at the
Nineteen Day Feast.
Mesbah Javid
destructive criticism, such as the pattern of "continually
challenging and criticizing the decisions" of the
Assemblies, prevents the rapid growth of the Faith and
repels those who are yet outside the community. Indeed "all
criticisms and discussions of a negative character which may
result in undermining the authority of the Assembly as a
body should be strictly avoided. For otherwise the order of
the Cause itself will be endangered, and confusion and
discord will reign in the community." "Vicious criticism is
indeed a calamity," the root of which is "lack of faith in
the system of Baha'u'llah" and failure to follow the "Baha'i
laws in voting, in electing, in serving, and in abiding by
Assembly decisions."
Chris Manvell
I'm sorry, Mesbah, but, if I didn't know you better, I would conclude
that it is hearsay.
As it is, I'm sorry but if you will not, or cannot, divulge the source,
and as I have far too much work to do than to start hunting the web for
it, I will have to conclude that, as an out-of-context quotation, it
cannot be regarded as a reliable indicator as to what the House was
really implying.
Regards,
Chris.
Mesbah Javid
in message
| I'm sorry, Mesbah, but, if I didn't know you better, I
would conclude
| that it is hearsay.
|
David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila
Consider the pettiness of men's minds. They ask for that which injureth
them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of
those that are far astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding
themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance.
123
Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench.
Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the
embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man
is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own
ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty
causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the
dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extrème
depravity and wickedness.
124
Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection.
This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in
certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are
the All-Knowing.
125
Say: True liberty consisteth in man's submission unto My commandments,
little as ye know it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down unto
them from the Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, attain unto
perfect liberty. Happy is the man that hath apprehended the Purpose of God
in whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will that pervadeth all
created things. Say: The liberty that profiteth you is to be found nowhere
except in complete servitude unto God, the Eternal Truth. Whoso hath tasted
of its sweetness will refuse to barter it for all the dominion of earth and
heaven.
-- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 63-64
Chris Manvell wrote in message ...
>On talk.religion.bahai, Mesbah Javid (mailto:1111...@3web.net) wrote:
>>Chris Manvell <ch...@breacais.NOdemonUCEPLEASE.co.uk> | I
>>have not been able to find the origin of your quote above.
>>|
>>
>> Don't worry at all, if you cannot find the source, just
>>try to find it, this will give you a great opportunity to
>>find and discover many other beautiful Baha'i Writings.
>
>I'm sorry, Mesbah, but, if I didn't know you better, I would conclude
>that it is hearsay.
>
Codi del Mundo
I used to be a member of the Baha'i Faith, and though it has some very good
points, it ultimately fails to pass the test of independent investigation.
Baha'is usually seek an image as being very liberal and open-minded, to
attract seekers no doubt. Once within the community however, you are very
limited in terms of how you should feel about any aspect of life... it has
to be the "Baha'i Way" or no way. In fact, you may find yourself in a
ridiculous situation if you have unique family situations...
Are you adopted? Oh, too bad if you were wanting to get married.... Better
hope you can track down your biological parents, or you will face a real
nightmare, because you need their permission before you can marry if they
are still living. If they, let's say, don't like "negroes" and you want to
marry interracially, then despite the fact that they have never seen you
before in their lives (because they dumped you at an orphanage) you are
forbidden to marry, and face severe penalities if you do so anyways. Have
you, or anyone you know, had an experience where you faced a four fold
conflict with: the love of your life, a biological parent you've never met
(or a hard-headed parent with predjuices against your love's race), the
Baha'i religious administration, and your own conscience.
Thought I would also pass along these quotes posted here before on liberty
from the Baha'i writings for your contemplation. Notice several type-os so
you might want to verify them with the original sources.
Pass along your personal stories.
David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message ...
Chris Manvell
>in message
>| I'm sorry, Mesbah, but, if I didn't know you better, I
>would conclude
>| that it is hearsay.
>|
Mesbah,
Stop playing around. You post a "quotation" and claim that it is from
the House and now admit that you just made it up. How many other
"quotations" have you fabricated?
Sadly,
Mesbah Javid
in message news:nonjwDAr...@breacais.demon.co.uk...
| Stop playing around. You post a "quotation" and claim
that it is from
| the House and now admit that you just made it up. How
many other
| "quotations" have you fabricated?
As a Baha'i you are admonished in the Writings that you
should recognize the truth no matter in what form it appears
to you. But you read the truth and considered it to be
"hearsay". That is sad from a Baha'i in your capacity. (by
the way what is your capacity, I was just bluffing about
your capacity!)
Chris Manvell
Dear Mesbah,
I'm afraid I have heard too many quotations from the Kitab-i-Hearsay,
some of which can be near enough to the real Writings as to fool even
some scholars, that I am somewhat cynical about quotations that cannot
be easily verified. Also, unfortunately, however much I am admonished,
I have to confess to my fallibility and ignorance in the face of God's
revelation, and as to my capacity, only God knows what that is and to
what extent I am fulfilling that capacity.
What I do know is that with all my current obligations I really do not
have enough time to pursue a rigorous deepening programme so have to
pick up what I can when I can. I am hoping, in November, to resign one
voluntary post (I tried last year but no-one would take it over) which
has caused me much grief. That should give me more time to work on my
other projects and to read the Writings some more.
All the best, and sorry if I was a bit harsh.
Chis
Mesbah Javid
Had you waited and submitted to the requirement of
consent of the parents, you would have seen it wisdom soon
after. However, now you might only see the difficulties in
your life will just accumulate.
Codi del Mundo <EnterEma...@here.com> wrote in message
news:7n5nce$34ak$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
Mesbah Javid
in message news:eR29uTAs...@breacais.demon.co.uk...
|I am hoping, in November, to resign one
| voluntary post (I tried last year but no-one would take it
| over) which has caused me much grief.
This Baha'i work whcih includes grief must be a great
piece of work. I suspect if Thomas Breakwell had it he would
not resign!
| That should give me more time to work on my
| other projects and to read the Writings some more.
|
In the West I also found out that reading the Writings
and teaching is great, relative to administrative positions
and dealing with arrogant, self-centered, power-seeking
individuals who have no clue what Baha'i consultation is,
and have absolutely no consideration for majority decision.
Chris Manvell
>piece of work. I suspect if Thomas Breakwell had it he would
>not resign!
Now then... Did I say it was Baha'i work? It has absolutely nothing to
do with the Faith.
Roger Reini
<EnterEma...@here.com> wrote:
>
>I used to be a member of the Baha'i Faith, and though it has some very good
>points, it ultimately fails to pass the test of independent investigation.
>Baha'is usually seek an image as being very liberal and open-minded, to
>attract seekers no doubt. Once within the community however, you are very
>limited in terms of how you should feel about any aspect of life... it has
>to be the "Baha'i Way" or no way. In fact, you may find yourself in a
>ridiculous situation if you have unique family situations...
> Are you adopted? Oh, too bad if you were wanting to get married.... Better
>hope you can track down your biological parents, or you will face a real
>nightmare, because you need their permission before you can marry if they
>are still living.
I believe that this is somewhat dependent on the circumstances under
which one was given up for adoption. If I understand correctly, if
the adoption process was a closed one, and there's no way for you to
legally determine who your biological parents were, then you do not
need their consent:
"Regarding the matter of adopted children, the consent of all
natural parents must be obtained wherever this is legally possible but
no effort should be made to trace the natural parents if this
contravenes the provision of the adoption certificate or the laws of
the country. If there is no such legal bar to approaching the natural
parents and if it is legally established that the man in question is
the father, the child must obtain his consent if he is alive.
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 374)
The preceding was from the Universal House of Justice, BTW.
rlit...@my-deja.com
Your letter brought back to me some strong memories, and proved to be
very evocative.
I find it necessary to be reminded now and again that the laws of God,
however beautiful they may be, are laws nonetheless. God does this for
us - the reminding - when necessary. Ouch.
These laws are designed to order a society which is in disorder. They
are designed to be laws for many, many centuries, not just for today.
Today, they are uncomfortable sometimes, painful at other times. I have
found that following them as best I can is always better than merely
following them when it is easy, or comfortable.
This law - gaining parental permission - is frequently agonizing in
America, where many Baha'is are first generation and where interracial
marriage is only slowly making headway against a backdrop of three
centuries of racism. Even within the Baha'i community, the persistent
racism of our society infects us in subtle ways, and sometimes catches
us unawares.
I know of couples who waited out their parents disapproval, and
eventually won them over. I know of others who could not, and
separated. It always seemed that the obedience gained them something
profoundly important, and the cases where the couples broke the law
lost them something. My impression.
Like you (apparently) I once fell in love, and went with my beloved to
gain her parents permission and was turned down, out of hand. Not for
my race, but for my faith. I obeyed.
It was terribly painful.
I hope to hear from you again.
Robert A. Little
In article <7n5nce$34ak$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
"Codi del Mundo" <EnterEma...@here.com> wrote:
>
> I used to be a member of the Baha'i Faith, and though it has some
very good
> points, it ultimately fails to pass the test of independent
investigation.
> Baha'is usually seek an image as being very liberal and open-minded,
to
> attract seekers no doubt. Once within the community however, you are
very
> limited in terms of how you should feel about any aspect of life...
it has
> to be the "Baha'i Way" or no way. In fact, you may find yourself in a
> ridiculous situation if you have unique family situations...
> Are you adopted? Oh, too bad if you were wanting to get married....
Better
> hope you can track down your biological parents, or you will face a
real
> nightmare, because you need their permission before you can marry if
they
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
wild...@peconic.net
<patric...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> "One area in which liberty is limited in the Baha'i
>> community is that governing methods and channels for the
>> expression of criticism."
>> [UHJ]
WHAT WOULD BE THE WISDOM OF THIS...
WOULD YOU LET YOUR CHILD
EXPRESS FULL LOVE FOR ANOTHER KIND
OF POLITICAL SYSTEM IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS
WHO HAVE ALOT THAT HATE COMMUNISM FOR EXAMPLE.
WHAT IS THE WISDOM...
OF CONTROLLING THE CHANNELS OF
CRITISMS..
ONE CAN RUIN A WRITER OR ARTIST BY CRITISING
THEM TOO MUCH PUBLICALLY
HOW MUCH MORE A WITCH HUNT
IF YOU CRITISE BAHAI FAITH TO OTHERS OUTSIDE
THE FAITH AND IN...
YOU WOULD CAUSE ME TO BE PERSECUTED
AND UNDO ALL THE GOOD WORKS I DID DURING MY LIFE.
YOU WOULD ENDANGER MY LIFE AND OTHERS CONNECTED
TO ME THAT I HELP IN CHARITIES...
IT IS GOOD TO BE WISE.
AND IF YOU HAVE A CRITISM OFFER IT UP IN GOOD FAITH
AND OFFER A SOLUTION AT THE SAME TIME
AND DO SUMIT IT TO THE UHJ IN A EMAIL OR THRU
YOUR LOCAL LSA....
WINGS
Mesbah Javid
in message news:ZhGm3.334$sA.1...@monger.newsread.com...
| But about Stalinism ... censorship exists everywhere, not
just in Stalinism.
| Each and every one of us is a censor.
The House of Justice has not felt that it is
feasible as yet to exempt Baha'i scholars from the process
of review for their general publications. There are two
reasons for this. Although there are Baha'i scholars who
have a profound understanding of the Cause and would not
misrepresent or distort it in their writings, there are,
alas, some who, while having academic qualifications in a
certain area are, at the same time, seriously deficient in
their knowledge of the teachings. The writings of such
authors, if published without review, could mislead the
general public, and the very fact that they were recognized
academics would give added seriousness to the errors that
they would propagate at this stage of the development of the
Faith. Moreover, the House of Justice feels that it would
not be wise, at this juncture, to have a list of reliable
Baha'i scholars who would not be subject to review as
distinct from all other believers.
(From a letter dated 17 March 1988 to an individual
believer)
marks
church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a
heathen man and a publican."
There most be rules of order, the opposite is chaos.
Regards, marks