Why do People not trust Odin sometimes?
Ryan Austin Calic
generally tell me to not trust Odin and they seem to view him as a god
of war and Thor replaces Odin as the god of wisdom in Iceland. But in
scandinavia Astruars seem to veiw Odin as the god of Wisdom and Thor as
the god of war. Why is there the difference of opinions of what Odin and
Thor represent.
Sure, in everyone's opinion I think Thor represents a "protective
wisdom", but none of the stuff I've ever read seems to suggest that Odin
is not trustworthy. Am I missing a peice of the puzzle? Now if you wanna
know about a god you can't trust try Loki. That Loki is nothing but
trouble. He's just waiting to set Fenris loose to devour the sun on the
day of Ragnarok!
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
>
> It's funny, but When I talk to some people like the Icelanders they
> generally tell me to not trust Odin and they seem to view him as a god
> of war and Thor replaces Odin as the god of wisdom in Iceland. But in
> scandinavia Astruars seem to veiw Odin as the god of Wisdom and Thor as
> the god of war. Why is there the difference of opinions of what Odin and
> Thor represent.
***Mere differences of opinion <g>. Odin/Woden is a god of many
qualities, and has had those names of various attributes given to him
over the millennia by godhar and followers. Tyr and any other god may
also have a variety of names, so in this Odin isn't alone.
Much of it is poetic attribution.
Since these gods eventually became bound into one 'package' , many people
probably have post-Heathen or Medieval thinking about them that they were
given worship simultaneously across Scandinavia. Only by the 1700s did
the shards of the Old Religion begin to be recollected by poetic scholars
and those with an interest in what is known as Asa-Tru.
Gods of various names and mythic importance, or of different locales and
regions within Scandinavia, were spread by war and trade and that is how
the wide variety of god-families could have blended over the last 7000
years. The "Eddas" used as prime sources for study actually are the
'remnants' of what was being destroyed by the Christians between the 400s
and 1200s in Northern Europe. What we are missing in addition to what
exists now is a mystery.***
> Sure, in everyone's opinion I think Thor represents a "protective
> wisdom", but none of the stuff I've ever read seems to suggest that Odin
> is not trustworthy. Am I missing a peice of the puzzle?
***No. Odin is not a scoundrel. He always among us in thought and by
this route he exists in placid enlightenment and the heat of battle fury.
He is part of our thought process which binds our intellect and instincts
together**
Now if you wanna
> know about a god you can't trust try Loki. That Loki is nothing but
> trouble. He's just waiting to set Fenris loose to devour the sun on the
> day of Ragnarok!
***Been there. Done that <g>***
Wala Haalgjum/
In the Hallows prosper!
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
AEF/ER
http://members.tripod.com/~aernfolk/index-2.html
Sagamaster
> It's funny, but When I talk to some people like the Icelanders they
> generally tell me to not trust Odin and they seem to view him as a god
> of war and Thor replaces Odin as the god of wisdom in Iceland. But in
> scandinavia Astruars seem to veiw Odin as the god of Wisdom and Thor as
> the god of war. Why is there the difference of opinions of what Odin and
> Thor represent.
> Sure, in everyone's opinion I think Thor represents a "protective
> wisdom", but none of the stuff I've ever read seems to suggest that Odin
> is not trustworthy. Am I missing a peice of the puzzle? Now if you wanna
> know about a god you can't trust try Loki. That Loki is nothing but
> trouble. He's just waiting to set Fenris loose to devour the sun on the
> day of Ragnarok!
I don't know what would be the sources for the differenced in the veiws of
Odin and Thor in Norden, but in all the lore I've every read, Odin is the
only god of wisdom (Mimir is very wise but he is a giant; Frigg was born
with full knowledge if everything, but she never says what she knows).
While Thor is not a dunce, he is also not always quick on the up-take, I
would never associate wisdom with Thor (and wisdom and knowledge are not
interchangable terms).
As to Nodic peoples not trusting Odin, this comes from the fact that he
often pulls his favor from devotees without any warning. There is a story
of one of the Skaldic Poets who had Odin as a patron. These two had a very
good relationship. Then one day, so the story goes, Odin caused this poets
sons (all three of them and the only sons he had) to drown. The poets
prayers asking why went unanswered. Odin can be somewhat erratic in the
treatment of his followers. But since Odins main goal in everything is to
prepare for Ragnarok, there may be reasons relating to Ragnarok for Odins
actions.
And Fenrir eats Odin, not the sun. The sun is eaten by Skoll.
--
Sagamaster
spydskog @ mn . uswest .net (remove spaces from between symbols for email
address)
"Now that I've given up hope, I feel much better."
vid...@hotmail.com
berser...@webtv.net (Ryan "Austin" Calic) wrote:
> It's funny, but When I talk to some people like the Icelanders they
> generally tell me to not trust Odin and they seem to view him as a god
> of war and Thor replaces Odin as the god of wisdom in Iceland.
Cutural thing maybe? I trust Odin to be true to his nature, Thor also.
> Now if you wanna
> know about a god you can't trust try Loki. That Loki is nothing but
> trouble. He's just waiting to set Fenris loose to devour the sun on the
> day of Ragnarok!
Careful, your sentence makes Loki sound as if he's the judeo-christian Satan.
I trust Loki to be true to his nature also. Loki can be worked with in ritual
and even likes (IMHO) to be called to at times. Your concerns over his role
in Ragnarok are unfounded...he's just being true to the nature that Odin has
set into motion.
Just my opinions...
Wassial and health!
Vidhar
:RtR:
--
"Odin isn't Nazi nor Christian...and neither am I!"
"Reyn til Runa!"
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Coyote Pup
>Sure, in everyone's opinion I think Thor represents a "protective
>wisdom", but none of the stuff I've ever read seems to suggest that Odin
>know about a god you can't trust try Loki. That Loki is nothing but
>trouble. He's just waiting to set Fenris loose to devour the sun on the
>day of Ragnarok!
I would imagine it's because of their track records.
lessee....
unlike Odhinn, Loki never lies or breaks his word at any point in Eddic or
Skaldic poetry.
unlike Odhinn, Loki doesn't kill his own followers with no notice or
apparent reason.
unlike Odhinn, Loki stays true to his bonds when doing so harms him, and
you know where you stand with him.
Loki's great 'villany' according to Snorri is the murder of Baldr, on
which Snorri directly contradicts a half-dozen earlier sources [dating
from the ninth to the twelfth century], all of whom consider the great
(not blind) warrior Hodr to be the sole killer of Baldr. For every crime
he commits (other than the contradictory version of the Baldr myth), he
ends up repairing the damage.
Odhinn, on the other hand, breaks guest laws, host laws, blood
brotherhood, the trust of those who swear fealty to him, and the neck of
anyone who gets in his way. The people I have met who trust him the least
are the godhis devoted to him, who to my experience (12 out of 12 so far)
have told me to never turn my back on Odhinn or believe anything he tells
me. KveldulfR Gundarsson refers to the Valknot as the "insert spear here"
point, and Edred Thorsson suggests never getting into a vehicle (such as a
plane or car) driven by one devoted to Odhinn.
and on minor corrective details, in order to bind Loki and Fenris, Odhinn
and Tyr, respectively, broke their oaths. On the day of Ragnarok, all
chains are broken and all prisoners are freed - so Loki and Fenris are
simple freed, but Loki does not free Fenris. It is not Fenris, but a wolf
named Skoll, who eats the Sun. Fenris eats Odhinn, and then is killed by
Vidhar in revenge. I generally consider Ragnarok to be the inevitable
result of Odhinn's history of murder and betrayal finally catching up to
him.
-Coyote Pup
Drcpatentz
>point, and Edred Thorsson suggests never getting into a vehicle (such as a
>plane or car) driven by one devoted to Odhinn.
>
>
Could you direct me to the appropriate citation?
ro...@yolo.com
berser...@webtv.net (Ryan "Austin" Calic) wrote:
> It's funny, but When I talk to some people like the Icelanders they
> read seems to suggest that Odin is not trustworthy. Am I missing a peice of
> the puzzle?
Maybe. Oðinn is trustworthy in the sense that you can trust him to always
be himself, but he is by nature fickle, deceptive, a thief and an oath-
breaker. His deeds are always based on the maxim, "the end justifies the
means." If Oðinn considered himself bound by ordinary concepts of
trustworthiness we would not have poetry, and Valhhöll would not be filled
with so many heroes. When the stolid Icelandic farmers went to Norway to
seek their fortunes with Viking bands they set Thór aside temporarily and
followed Oðinn until they returned to their farms. Egil Skalagrimsson
laments this decision in his great poem Sonnatorrek, one of the most haunting
works of art ever composed. Perhaps I'll post that one to the group
sometime--it merits our attention.
fmg,
rorik
S. M. Hewitt
<erh...@gte.net> wrote:
>Since these gods eventually became bound into one 'package' , many people
>probably have post-Heathen or Medieval thinking about them that they were
>given worship simultaneously across Scandinavia. Only by the 1700s did
>the shards of the Old Religion begin to be recollected by poetic scholars
>and those with an interest in what is known as Asa-Tru.
>Gods of various names and mythic importance, or of different locales and
>regions within Scandinavia, were spread by war and trade and that is how
>the wide variety of god-families could have blended over the last 7000
>years. The "Eddas" used as prime sources for study actually are the
>'remnants' of what was being destroyed by the Christians between the 400s
>and 1200s in Northern Europe. What we are missing in addition to what
>exists now is a mystery.***
...it is true that we have only the sour side of a fraction of what
the oral tradition once was...and that a more rounded picture of
AllFather might emerge if we were somehow to find more (which ain't
too likely).
I would, however, like to confirm that what we know of his
nature...changeablity, capriciousness at times, and the betrayal of
favored proteges...are accurate descriptions of *a side* of Óšinn. In
his defense, I would like to point out that he isn't the
one-dimensional "goody goody" or raging, wrathful, jealous and
murderous omnipresent being which has had christians shaking in their
theological boots for two thousand years. "OOOOO...Jehovah must love
us, because he hasn't sickened our livestock, taken our children and
reduced our homestead to cinders...yet...."
He is a mystery...in part because we know only part of what the
original Lore had to offer, and in part because his is the
responsibility for the continuance of the Nine Worlds after the
inevitable.
To say, as one did, that Ragnarökr will be "all his fault" is
emotionalism. It leaves a very important part out of the
equation...chaos! The Ęsir and Vanir...with AllFather as the
tactician and AsaŽorr as the muscle...have been keeping the Jotunar at
bay for ever so long. One or two have sneaked through...one or two
walk the earth today. But, all of them loose?
Imagine stragegizing for that!
>***No. Odin is not a scoundrel. He always among us in thought and by
>this route he exists in placid enlightenment and the heat of battle fury.
>He is part of our thought process which binds our intellect and instincts
>together**
...and he isn't the stainless, ever-predictable Jesus or the vengeful
Jehovah. He is life itself...and must maneuver through it taking us
and Asgarš with him, all the while knowing he will lose in the end.
Don't blame him a bit.
>Wala Haalgjum/
>In the Hallows prosper!
>
>Paal-Eirik Filssunu
>AEF/ER
********************************
...fara meš gošanum....
-- Steve
********************************
S. M. Hewitt
> Maybe. Oðinn is trustworthy in the sense that you can trust him to always
>be himself, but he is by nature fickle, deceptive, a thief and an oath-
>breaker. His deeds are always based on the maxim, "the end justifies the
>means."
...thank you...he is the inevitable "harsh light" and "uncomfortable
reality" of life, not the cushy, "wouldn't it be nice" side we'd like
our Gods to be.
Ásatrú is a religion of the real world. In the real world, ideals
have their place, but who can be held to them? You do the best you
can...and still end up dead...even, I remind all, the Gods.
>If Oðinn considered himself bound by ordinary concepts of
>trustworthiness we would not have poetry, and Valhhöll would not be filled
>with so many heroes.
...hear, hear!
>When the stolid Icelandic farmers went to Norway to
>seek their fortunes with Viking bands they set Thór aside temporarily and
>followed Oðinn until they returned to their farms.
...World Tree sells that video interview with Sveinbjorn, in which the
inept interviewer asks him about the Gods. He says in almost as many
words that he doesn't (didn't) feel close to Óðinn, but rather to
Þorr.
I have run into christians who couldn't imagine praying directly to
Jehovah...that's why Jesus is handy to them, I guess. A more
comfortable and comforting personification. That is supposedly why
Mary is so popular...getting to a stern god through the kitchen door.
Hence, also, the intercession of saints.
Same dynamic.
>Egil Skalagrimsson
>laments this decision in his great poem Sonnatorrek, one of the most haunting
>works of art ever composed. Perhaps I'll post that one to the group
>sometime--it merits our attention.
...by all means, Sonnatorrek! Your other threads have been wonderful,
and this...and Head Ransom...are well deserving of the same sound
treatment.
Egill knew the measure of AllFather...and acted accordingly. I can't
see myself standing amidst the ruins, shaking my fist at my patron and
gifter of my greatest solace -- in Egill's case, poetry. But, then,
I'm not Egill.
>fmg,
>rorik
********************************
...fara með goðanum....
-- Steve
********************************
Coyote Pup
>>KveldulfR Gundarsson refers to the Valknot as the "insert spear here"
>>point, and Edred Thorsson suggests never getting into a vehicle (such as a
>>plane or car) driven by one devoted to Odhinn.
Drcpatentz (drcpa...@aol.com) replied:
>I was not aware that the foregoing gentlemen had made the foregoing assertions.
>Could you direct me to the appropriate citation?
KveldulfR said it in person, but he says it often enough that I'm fairly
certain anyone else who knows him has heard him say it once or twice.
Incidentally, he has a valknot tattooed over his heart, so you know he's
not saying it lightly. I think Edred wrote that in "Book of Troth", but I
could be wrong - I've read about half his stuff, and it was a few years
ago when I saw that tidbit.
-Coyote Pup
Susan Granquist
> On 4 Aug 1998 20:29:26 GMT, c_...@speakeasy.org (Coyote Pup) wrote:
>
>and on minor corrective details, in order to bind Loki and Fenris, Odhinn
>and Tyr, respectively, broke their oaths. On the day of Ragnarok, all
A small but important point is that Tyr gave his hand as a pledge or
warrant...and paid it. That is not the same as breaking an oath.
Regards,
Susan Granquist
Heimdall
Ryan Austin Calic wrote:
> It's funny, but When I talk to some people like the Icelanders they
> generally tell me to not trust Odin and they seem to view him as a god
> of war and Thor replaces Odin as the god of wisdom in Iceland. But in
> scandinavia Astruars seem to veiw Odin as the god of Wisdom and Thor as
> the god of war. Why is there the difference of opinions of what Odin and
> Thor represent.
> Sure, in everyone's opinion I think Thor represents a "protective
> wisdom", but none of the stuff I've ever read seems to suggest that Odin
> is not trustworthy. Am I missing a peice of the puzzle? Now if you wanna
> know about a god you can't trust try Loki. That Loki is nothing but
> trouble. He's just waiting to set Fenris loose to devour the sun on the
> day of Ragnarok!
Often folk will feel a mistrust for Odin because he he can withdraw favors
as quickly as he gives them. Often associated with the nobility and
intrigue, he is said to be many steps ahead of the game and the game is his
alone. There are certainly many examples in the lore of what would appear
sudden transitions from favor for no apparent reason. I believe there are
reasons and that they are just not clear to us. I have no mistrust of Odin,
or Loki either for that matter. Each will be Tru to their nature and I
continually strive to become closer, in knowledge, to that nature.
Fare with the Gods
Heimdall
AFA/AOR/Himinbjorg Kindred
J.Richardsson
> are the godhis devoted to him, who to my experience (12 out of 12 so far)
> have told me to never turn my back on Odhinn or believe anything he tells
> point, and Edred Thorsson suggests never getting into a vehicle (such as a
> plane or car) driven by one devoted to Odhinn.
Hehe, never heard the Gundarsson quotation before...I've been wearing
the Valkrknot since the age of fourteen. Until then, I'd only seen the
symbol carved on a bedpost and on a Runestone...had to have it. Not
long after I acquired it I was a passenger in a single car accident. It
was ugly but I met my Fetch-Wife. The driver and the other passenger
were totally fine. What can you say to a God that breaks your back and
introduces you to your Fylgja in just a few rolls of a truck?
Thankfully She let me walk...
I still wear that Valkrknot but I've decided to make a few more friends
just in case...
J.Richardsson.
Red Wolf
>
>I would imagine it's because of their track records.
>
>lessee....
>
>unlike Odhinn, Loki never lies or breaks his word at any point in Eddic or
>Skaldic poetry.
>
>unlike Odhinn, Loki doesn't kill his own followers with no notice or
>apparent reason.
>
>unlike Odhinn, Loki stays true to his bonds when doing so harms him, and
>you know where you stand with him.
>
>Loki's great 'villany' according to Snorri is the murder of Baldr, on
>which Snorri directly contradicts a half-dozen earlier sources [dating
>from the ninth to the twelfth century], all of whom consider the great
>(not blind) warrior Hodr to be the sole killer of Baldr. For every crime
>he commits (other than the contradictory version of the Baldr myth), he
>ends up repairing the damage.
>
>Odhinn, on the other hand, breaks guest laws, host laws, blood
>brotherhood, the trust of those who swear fealty to him, and the neck of
>anyone who gets in his way. The people I have met who trust him the least
>are the godhis devoted to him, who to my experience (12 out of 12 so far)
>have told me to never turn my back on Odhinn or believe anything he tells
>me. KveldulfR Gundarsson refers to the Valknot as the "insert spear here"
>point, and Edred Thorsson suggests never getting into a vehicle (such as a
>plane or car) driven by one devoted to Odhinn.
>
>and on minor corrective details, in order to bind Loki and Fenris, Odhinn
>and Tyr, respectively, broke their oaths. On the day of Ragnarok, all
>chains are broken and all prisoners are freed - so Loki and Fenris are
>simple freed, but Loki does not free Fenris. It is not Fenris, but a wolf
>named Skoll, who eats the Sun. Fenris eats Odhinn, and then is killed by
>Vidhar in revenge. I generally consider Ragnarok to be the inevitable
>result of Odhinn's history of murder and betrayal finally catching up to
>him.
>
>-Coyote Pup
Greetings
Fantastic post!!! I love seeing Loki portrayed in a more positive
light. I may not view Odin as dark as you do, pretty much I consider
some of his more questionable actions are based on keeping the day of
Ragnarok from happening. Give this man a toast
May the gods walk with you
RedWolf
Molnir
what he has to do. it reminds you that he is always trying to stall ragnarok,
so some of his actions are above reason to us. however, i DO NOT see him as a
backstabber.
-------------Mol...@aol.com
~*~brewer for The Children of Midgard~*~
for info regarding The Children of Midgard, please email: TCOMi...@aol.com
or Midgard...@hotmail.com
OOKAMEI
Well, a lot. Mostly to paraphrase, that Odin's a horrid guy for the "betrayals
of his followers, etc. Mostly backstabbing and the like. Or taking them when
they're at their prime (sometimes physically, sometimes at their mental prime,
or sometimes at their herioc prime.).
Well, all....here's an Odinist's thoughts.
Odin, because of his vast knowledge of Orlog, Wyrd, prophecy, and a thousand
other things....he is somewhat (but not totally IMHO) beyond the common
restraints of "Good" and "Evil". Odin's highest and most important concern is
Ragnarok and the cycle that comes afterwards. His greatest concern is not
stopping Ragnarok altogether...that would be foolish and impossible. His
greatest challenge is to preserve some of this cycle's influence and "plant" it
into the next cycle.
In this thought., we must remember that to Odin...the ends DO justify the
means, but only because he has the knowledge (but it is by no means omnissent)
to see how his actions effect everything in the "epic" sense or point of view.
To produce the desired results...which may not evolve for a long time after the
"seed action" or "set up".
As far as Odin betraying his chosen....
Well, his main concern for his chosen and dedicants are to be chosen to go to
Valhalla and be one of the Einjhar. Of course, Odin will take them when they
are at their highest point of self-strength. Makes sense, if you think about
it. If your "soul" is at its strongest during this or that time in your
life...that's obviously the time of which Odin will want that soul preserved.
This is all common sense people! Look at the epic state of it all. You must
look at it in the long run. If you look into the sagas and the eddas...see at
what time Odin takes his chosen ones. It is ALWAYS at some prime of
existence....at the highest power of that person's existence.
Why would Odin want them at their weakest? Would you want troops in your
army that are weak in spirit, mind, body, or desire? By the hand of Tyr, NO!
In Troth,
--Mike
RKN
:RtR:
Eirik Dudeleisson
Bravo! Quite possibly the only time you and I will agree.
Hail the High One, Odin !!!
Eirik Dudeleisson
Markland Kindred
mark...@asatru.org
http://members.xoom.com/markland
OOKAMEI wrote in message
<199808060458...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
the...@stlnet.com
c_...@speakeasy.org (Coyote Pup) wrote:
> I wrote:
> >>KveldulfR Gundarsson refers to the Valknot as the "insert spear here"
> >>point, and Edred Thorsson suggests never getting into a vehicle (such as a
> >>plane or car) driven by one devoted to Odhinn.
>
> >I was not aware that the foregoing gentlemen had made the foregoing
assertions.
> >Could you direct me to the appropriate citation?
>
> KveldulfR said it in person, but he says it often enough that I'm fairly
> certain anyone else who knows him has heard him say it once or twice.
> Incidentally, he has a valknot tattooed over his heart, so you know he's
> not saying it lightly. I think Edred wrote that in "Book of Troth", but I
> could be wrong - I've read about half his stuff, and it was a few years
> ago when I saw that tidbit.
>
> -Coyote Pup
>
KveldulfR and I were comparing valknot tattoos at TM'96, and he made the same
comment to me.
I've also read the comment by Edred, but can't remember where off the top of
me pointed lil head....
Dorian
ro...@yolo.com
ook...@aol.com (OOKAMEI) wrote:
> People wrote:
> Well, a lot. Mostly to paraphrase, that Odin's a horrid guy for the
> Orlog, Wyrd, prophecy, and a thousand other things....he is somewhat (but not
> totally IMHO) beyond the common restraints of "Good" and "Evil".
>
> --Mike
Hej, Mike:
What do "good" and "evil" have to do with it? Unlike Christians, we do not
look to our gods for moral guidance--that's not what they're for. Anyone who
follows Oðinn because he thinks that will make him a "good person" is, IMHO,
a fool. Similarly concluding that he must be "a horrid guy" because he
breaks promises, steals mead, and tricks people into fighting. I myself am a
dedicated follower of Hárr but for success in battle, not for ethical
instruction! When the time comes for me to park my carcass at the far end of
his lower bench and crack a brew, I sure as Hel don't expect to hear any
sermons about whether or not I was a good person. That judgment will have
been made by those I lived and dealt with, not by Oðinn--he's got other
things to do!
fmg,
rorik
OOKAMEI
>Hej, Mike:
>
>What do "good" and "evil" have to do with it? Unlike Christians, we do not
>look to our gods for moral guidance--that's not what they're for. Anyone who
>follows Oðinn because he thinks that will make him a "good person" is, IMHO,
>a fool. Similarly concluding that he must be "a horrid guy" because he
>breaks promises, steals mead, and tricks people into fighting. I
myself am a
>dedicated follower of Hárr but for success in battle, not for ethical
>instruction! When the time comes for me to park my carcass at the far end of
>his lower bench and crack a brew, I sure as Hel don't expect to hear any
>sermons about whether or not I was a good person. That judgment will have
>been made by those I lived and dealt with, not by Oðinn--he's got other
>things to do!
>
>fmg,
>rorik
That was pretty much my point, Rorik. But, actually......Odin will be the
judge of whether or not he accepts you into Valhalla. Though I don't believe
that that judgement will be on whether you were a "good guy". I believe that,
within reason, it is judged by the exhilleration (a fast, self-evolution)of
yourself and personal strength.
I was using the "good" and "evil" in quotations, because to me those are
relative and are made up of a subjective viewpoint. Only that some people
assume them to be objective and universal. I was reffering to others' belief
of those ethical-type boundaries.
I had never said he was a "horrid" guy...I was paraphrasing others.(please go
back and read more carefully.) : )
My post was in defense of Odin's sometimes "questionable" (by the mass social
constraints of human ethics) actions.
I would highly agree that anyone following Odin for moral instruction is
pretty warped. But we must always have in mind, he does it all for the overall
benefit of everything.
Ryan Austin Calic
from him. If I wanted to learn god morals then I'd be a strict follower
of Thor. I follow Odin in the hopes that one day he will bestow some of
the knowledge he received after he drank from the well of Mimir upon
thine selve in exchange for my devotion and sacrifices to Odin. Isn't
that what praying to Odin is about? Receiving knowledge?
Odin dumps and betrays his followers because he and the rest of the gods
have egos that are way over inflated. After all in Christianity Yahweh
is considered perfect, but in Asatru our gods are not perfect and have
the same fualts as Humans like our selfs.
mark...@asatru.org
trying to get through to a few people in here, for months!
Hail the High One !!!
Eirik Dudeleisson
Markland Kindred
mark...@asatru.org
http://members.xoom.com/markland
In article <6qe0pa$qui$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
ro...@yolo.com wrote:
> In article <199808060458...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> ook...@aol.com (OOKAMEI) wrote:
> > People wrote:
> > Well, a lot. Mostly to paraphrase, that Odin's a horrid guy for the
> > betrayals of his followers, etc. . . Odin, because of his vast knowledge of
> > Orlog, Wyrd, prophecy, and a thousand other things....he is somewhat (but
not
> > totally IMHO) beyond the common restraints of "Good" and "Evil".
> >
> > In Troth,
> > --Mike
>
> Hej, Mike:
>
> What do "good" and "evil" have to do with it? Unlike Christians, we do not
> look to our gods for moral guidance--that's not what they're for. Anyone who
> follows Oðinn because he thinks that will make him a "good person" is, IMHO,
> a fool. Similarly concluding that he must be "a horrid guy" because he
> breaks promises, steals mead, and tricks people into fighting. I
myself am a
> dedicated follower of Hárr but for success in battle, not for ethical
> instruction! When the time comes for me to park my carcass at the far end of
> his lower bench and crack a brew, I sure as Hel don't expect to hear any
> sermons about whether or not I was a good person. That judgment will have
> been made by those I lived and dealt with, not by Oðinn--he's got other
> things to do!
>
> fmg,
> rorik
>
AYoung8972
>have egos that are way over inflated.
Can't agree with you there on your comments concerning ego. Odin has helped me
many times by sharing his wisdom with me. This wisdom has helped me in many
situations dealing with life. I know his actions at times have not been at a
level we followers would like to see. However, Odin see and understands more
then we do and I believe his actions are there to help and save us in the
future. To Odin, the means justify to ends. As for the other Gods, again I
don't see an ego problem. Then again, we also need to have a higher opinon of
ourselves. This opinon can carry us over obstacles that block our way. Some may
call this ego. The Gods are part of my life and my family lives. I have never
seen them more then family and good friends. Its a good relationship based on
Love and Respect.
In Troth,
Jack
ro...@yolo.com
ook...@aol.com (OOKAMEI) wrote:
> . . .
> Odin will be the judge of whether or not he accepts you into Valhalla.
True enough--but just in case, there's one other possibility. According to
the old Northern customs, if I show up without an invitation I should be able
to claim a guest's right to three nights' hospitality. At the end of that
time, if I've demonstrated that I belong there I should be asked to stay.
Just something to think about as a backup plan. After all, mistakes happen.
> I was using the "good" and "evil" in quotations, because to me those are
> relative and are made up of a subjective viewpoint. Only that some people
> assume them to be objective and universal. I was reffering to others' belief
> of those ethical-type boundaries.
> I had never said he was a "horrid" guy...I was paraphrasing others.(please
> go back and read more carefully.) : )
I understood what you meant the first time; I just wanted to punch up the
message a little. I wasn't suggesting that YOU are a fool, because I knew you
were not endorsing the "horrid guy" comment. If I was throwing the spear at
you, I would have hit you. (:D)
S. M. Hewitt
>The Gods are part of my life and my family lives. I have never
>seen them more then family and good friends. Its a good relationship based on
>Love and Respect.
>
>In Troth,
>
>Jack
...a very good way of putting it.
Think of any of your neighbors and friends. If you have a problem --
depending on your luck with friends -- they'll be there to help. But,
they don't plan their days around you.
So, I believe, with our Gods. We live on our plot of turf in the
Multiverse of Nine Worlds, with our lives, needs, etc. They live in
theirs...and, because of their strengths, visit and teach us. But,
they aren't the "allseeing, benevolent and ever-present" deities of
biblical lore. As Eirik of Markland says (and sometimes shouts) Óšinn
ain't Jehovah.
The Eddas are still happening...the Sagas are still happening...the
myths are still unfolding. Must keep 'em busy. I'm not sure of the
dynamics of time in Asgarš, but firmly believe that -- in the midst of
their own lives -- the Ęsir and the Vanir, the alfar and the other
wights are there for us.
Sigrdrifa
Alfather" Odain Women, I do have the honor (?) of having the Valknutr tattoo'd
on my person as well, only mine is on my solar plexus region where I draw my
energy from. Odhinn may not be as trustworthy as what some Folk would prefer
but, if you are indeed one of his you know it, you often don't have a whole lot
of say in the matter (I know this, I fought it for many years)however, he was
and is a God that is consitently in search of something. Call it Runa, Call it
Divine Mytery Call it what you want but he never stops in his quest, and that
if nothing else is reason enough for me to respect him.
Ok Gefinn Odhni!
Sigrdrifa
ArialHakon
Odin has his own agenda...the preparation for Ragnarok. Because he has this
agenda, what he does may not seem right or logical to those of us who are not
blessed with foresight. He's not necessarily vengeful, not necessarily
capricious, he just has a different agenda than we do and because of that his
actions sometimes seem to wrong his followers (or outsiders). He has an agenda
of the survival of his kind which he uses to decide as to whether he will keep
his own word. As to Odin's followers and driving, I'd like to relate to you an
incidence that happened to my husband, who does follow Odin. He was riding in
a car with his supervisor and friend, when the guy got impatient at the speed
of the winnebago infrount of him and decided (unwisely) to pass in a no passing
zone. There was a semi comming the other way, and though my husband wagered
they did not have enough room to pass the winnebago, aparently his boss did.
Realizing he might be at the gates of Vahalla fairly soon (and figured if he
told Odin how he got there, the all father would raise a brow and say "you go
to Hel"...a common joke in our family when discussing deaths and the means by
which such deaths are achieved) because his boss seemed determined to pass that
winnebago, he scrambled to find something to be his weapon in death (somehow
he figured Odin would laugh at the pocket knife and send him to Hel). It took
less than a second to find the Tire Iron under the seat, but he then realized
it might not be a weapon good enough....he looked at his boss, and figured if
they were both going to die anyway, he could at least take another fighter with
him (both are fighters in a medieval re-enactment group, the SCA). He figured
if he took his boss out just before the Semi hit with the tire iron, Odin would
see that the tire iron wasn't such a silly weapon and that he was a worthy
warrior because he brought someone with him. I guess just as these thoughts
finished through my husband's mind and he started to stare at his boss with the
tire iron in his hand, his boss (knowing what religion my husband was) realized
that even if he did "win the race" he would probably be taken out by his
employee and jerked the car back behind the winnebago (with several horns on
all sides protesting) barely in time to avoid the semi. I tell this story to
deny the idea that you shouldn't ride in cars where Odin's followers are
driving...just that you should be aware that if the follower figures he is
going to die anyway, he might decide it would be a good idea to take you with
him....
Many instances of when the Gods broke their word were in circumstances in which
their word was given to someone misrepresenting himself/herself, or was given
by someone other than the God who broke the peace, or their word was giving in
situations where they were forced to.
Don't trust Odin? Certainly...his agenda may not be to your benefit, and he
would choose his agenda over you. Don't trust Loki? Loki wants acceptance,
but doesn't know the proper way to get it. He is a joker who doesn't know when
to quit, tries to be clever and ends up being insulting, will forfit his word
for personal gain. Laws are for others to follow, he'll follow them only if it
is convenient. I wouldn't trust that nature, but I would trust that Loki would
be true to it. Trust Thor? Not if I am a Giant or Dwarf (and I am not)! Mess
with what is his and face his wrath, word or no. Other than that, sure I'd
trust him. Trust Freya? Sure, as long as Gold is not involved...and be
careful if sex is. Trust Tyr? If he gives his word, sure. But if I don't
keep mine, I can be sure to face the consequences, even if he has to drag me
into them kicking and screaming. Trust Frey? Sure, unless it will bring him
favor with Gerd. Trust Frigga? She might not be as dedicated to Odin's agenda
to face Ragnarok, but as a true wife she will help him as much as she can, even
if he doesn't see it as help. She'll point out Odin's shortcommings, and
manipulate things to prove her point, but she is loyal to her husband, her
children and her servants and will do everything within her power to help them
if she feels the cause is right. Trust Njord? He'll do what he can, but he's
not the only one working the sea (remember Ran?). Trust Skadi? Depends, is
she pissed at me? She's loyal to her friends, but vengful to her enemies. How
about the other Gods and Goddesses? I don't know. I haven't really gotten
much of a feel for them yet.
I don't think the concept of good and evil, or for that matter of honor and
dishonor are the same in the Norse religion as in the Christian one, but I
think they are there, and there are some similarities. It takes some study to
identify what might be acceptable to the Gods and Goddesses, especially that
which is not acceptable in the Christian religion. Our Gods are not all good,
nor all evil (the Christian concept of good and evil that is). They have
personalities, agendas, preferences....in a way they are human. Even if I
don't admire everything that they do, I can at least (usually) understand the
actions they made in the legends of the past, and in that catch a glimpse of
their nature.
I do not need to trust the Gods, just trust that they will be true to their
nature and expect them to treat me true to their nature. I would expect the
same from a friend.
Freya's blessings,
Arial
S. M. Hewitt
> (the Gods) They have
>personalities, agendas, preferences....in a way they are human. Even if I
>don't admire everything that they do, I can at least (usually) understand the
>actions they made in the legends of the past, and in that catch a glimpse of
>their nature.
>
>I do not need to trust the Gods, just trust that they will be true to their
>nature and expect them to treat me true to their nature. I would expect the
>same from a friend.
>
>Freya's blessings,
>Arial
...excellent analysis.
...and, one might trust 羽inn not for what he can do for you, but for
what you can accomplish for the greater good together.
********************************
-- Steve
Honor to the Ancient Gods.
Honor to the Ones Who've Gone Before.
Honor to the Scholars and the Warriors.
...and honor to the land and the spirits of
the land!
Hail 羽inn and Freyr!
********************************
Harald and Gerda
S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <35d31ca1....@news.demon.co.uk>...
>On 12 Aug 1998 23:37:08 GMT, arial...@aol.com (ArialHakon) wrote:
>...and, one might trust Óðinn not for what he can do for you, but for
>what you can accomplish for the greater good together.
>
Heilsa Brothers and Sisters Kin and Kindred
Yikes! Steve, where did you come up with that? ( : ~ )
I have not added wit to this thread - mostly because I (as usual) had no
idea what to say.
But it has occurred to me - not as a great revelation but rather as a slowly
stalking pack; that perhaps what we (read we as "those of us who have had
the Aton/YHVH beaten into us since life which is only death") - _we_ read
into Odin a threat that is not there.
Or a magick which is nonse but science.
If we would ask ourselves what kind of father is Odin - then first we must
look at his children.
I have read much good from this thread. I have read some confusing - but in
all good. Good as in winter-mead... GOOD.
I - not dedicated to any one but to all - have this insight to offer:
I clearly see `ol Har - midnight blue his cloth laced with Gold. Upon a high
seat he sits. Gnarly hand within he holds bearded chin. Grand moustache
hides upon his lips this: both wry smile and sour grimace. From that seat he
looks out upon the vastness, and slowly shakes his head, muttering beneath
his breath:
*"What a fuckin' mess"*
Frith
Harald and Gerda
>
>********************************
>-- Steve
>
>Honor to the Ancient Gods.
>Honor to the Ones Who've Gone Before.
>Honor to the Scholars and the Warriors.
>...and honor to the land and the spirits of
>the land!
>Hail Óðinn and Freyr!
>
********************************
And in that I will honor with you!
S. M. Hewitt
<doc...@winternet.com.removethis> wrote:
>S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <35d31ca1....@news.demon.co.uk>...
>>On 12 Aug 1998 23:37:08 GMT, arial...@aol.com (ArialHakon) wrote:
>
>>...and, one might trust Óðinn not for what he can do for you, but for
>>what you can accomplish for the greater good together.
>>
>Heilsa Brothers and Sisters Kin and Kindred
>
>Yikes! Steve, where did you come up with that? ( : ~ )
>
>Frith
>Harald and Gerda
...and you, perhaps, have something in reply? Is that a positive or a
negative observation?
...and, I "came up with that" through observation, thought, and
conversation...as you asked....
Harald and Gerda
S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <35d551e1...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:35:27 -0500, "Harald and Gerda"
><doc...@winternet.com.removethis> wrote:
>
>>S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <35d31ca1....@news.demon.co.uk>...
>>>On 12 Aug 1998 23:37:08 GMT, arial...@aol.com (ArialHakon) wrote:
>>
>>>what you can accomplish for the greater good together.
>>>
>>Heilsa Brothers and Sisters Kin and Kindred
>>
>>Yikes! Steve, where did you come up with that? ( : ~ )
>>
>
>>Frith
>>Harald and Gerda
>
>...and you, perhaps, have something in reply? Is that a positive or a
>negative observation?
>
>...and, I "came up with that" through observation, thought, and
>conversation...as you asked....
>
>
Heilsa Steve -
jeese - grumpy today are we?
If I must classify as positive/negative, then it was neither. More like an
elbow in the ribs along the lines of *nudge nudge wink wink*.
Actually it reminded me (and Gerda too for that matter) very much of the
famous and historical JFK statement "Ask not what your country can do for
you &etc...."....
As it was, I couldn't resist a poke in the ribs. It was meant in fun. Excuse
the hell outa me if you didn't take it that way...
Frith
Harald
S. M. Hewitt
<doc...@winternet.com.removethis> wrote:
>>>S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <35d31ca1....@news.demon.co.uk>...
>>>>On 12 Aug 1998 23:37:08 GMT, arial...@aol.com (ArialHakon) wrote:
>>>
>>>>...and, one might trust 羽inn not for what he can do for you, but for
>>>>what you can accomplish for the greater good together.
>>>>
>>>Heilsa Brothers and Sisters Kin and Kindred
>>>
>>>Yikes! Steve, where did you come up with that? ( : ~ )
>>>Frith
>>>Harald and Gerda
>>
>>...and you, perhaps, have something in reply? Is that a positive or a
>>negative observation?
>>
>>...and, I "came up with that" through observation, thought, and
>>conversation...as you asked....
>>
>Heilsa Steve -
>
>jeese - grumpy today are we?
...today! Let't not narrow it down to today...I recently described
myself as looking like a grumpy garden gnome...it fits....
>If I must classify as positive/negative, then it was neither. More like an
>elbow in the ribs along the lines of *nudge nudge wink wink*.
...well...as those were 羽inns ribs you were nudging (I was going for
a beer at the time), and as he has a *famous* sense of humor, let's
say that I hope you know how to duck....
>Actually it reminded me (and Gerda too for that matter) very much of the
>famous and historical JFK statement "Ask not what your country can do for
>you &etc...."....
...where do you think he got it from? The Kennedy family is not known
for their smarts....
>As it was, I couldn't resist a poke in the ribs. It was meant in fun. Excuse
>the hell outa me if you didn't take it that way...
...like I said...whoops...he was looking over my shoulder and saw you
sig line...look out your window and see if you see any ravens...if you
do, start packing....
>Frith
>Harald
********************************
-- Steve
Honor to the Ancient Gods.
Honor to the Ones Who've Gone Before.
Honor to the Scholars and the Warriors.
...and honor to the land and the spirits of
the land!
Hail 羽inn and Freyr!
********************************
Harald and Gerda
S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <35d5bf5c...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:57:33 -0500, "Harald and Gerda"
><doc...@winternet.com.removethis> wrote:
>
>>>>S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <35d31ca1....@news.demon.co.uk>...
>>>>>On 12 Aug 1998 23:37:08 GMT, arial...@aol.com (ArialHakon) wrote:
>>>>
>...like I said...whoops...he was looking over my shoulder and saw you
>sig line...look out your window and see if you see any ravens...if you
>do, start packing....
Do a dozen (or so) crows count?
But then they are here constantly. There is something about waking to the
sound of crows talking to each other that I find enjoyable...
Frith
Harald
Wolf...@hotmail.com
I must say, over all a very interesting thread with some interesting views
of Ol’One-Eye. Yet I can not help but laugh at the fact that so many here
would deem themselves fit to sit in judgment of the actions of one such as
Odin. To my knowledge, none here have sipped from the Well. So how could we,
mere mortals, ever hope to comprehend the implications in the deeds of one
who looks far and away to future events. Yet even Odin is far from infallible
and doesn’t see everything, and at numerous times has had to recourse to
seeking the advise of others. Baldar’s death is but one such outstanding
event that comes to mind. To me, Odin is in a constant struggle with the many
myriad twisting of Wyrd. Whether or not we understand or except his actions
at any given point, we can usually rest assured that they are geared to
developments far beyond anything that WE can see.
Folk & Faith
Grauwolf
ro...@yolo.com
Wolf...@Hotmail.com wrote:
> Heilsa All,
>
> I must say, over all a very interesting thread with some interesting views
> of Ol’One-Eye. Yet I can not help but laugh at the fact that so many here
> would deem themselves fit to sit in judgment of the actions of one such as
> Odin. To my knowledge, none here have sipped from the Well. So how could we,
> mere mortals, ever hope to comprehend the implications in the deeds of one
> who looks far and away to future events. Yet even Odin is far from infallible
> and doesn’t see everything, and at numerous times has had to recourse to
> seeking the advise of others. Baldar’s death is but one such outstanding
> event that comes to mind. To me, Odin is in a constant struggle with the many
> myriad twisting of Wyrd. Whether or not we understand or except his actions
> at any given point, we can usually rest assured that they are geared to
> developments far beyond anything that WE can see.
>
> Folk & Faith
> Grauwolf
Well sure, but the thread wasn't about judging, it was about trusting.
fmg,
rorik