Ariosophy, Herr Schleipfer and the Armanen Order
wolf...@aol.com
In response to some posts concerning Guido von List and the Armanen
Futhark, the mention of the present Armanen Order and Adolf Schleipfer was
brought up. Odin...@aol.com and Thurs...@aol.com have made charges
against Herr Schleipfer and the Armanen Order as both Ariosophic and
Neo-Nazi - comparing them to the Viking Youth of modern-day Germany and
pre-WWII occult groups such as the Thule Society.
I am afraid most of us in the US are pretty ignorant of Herr Schleipfer
and Asatru in Germany, so if names are going to be called, one should be
very careful about what one says. It is not very fair to bring up Herr
Schleipfer s name, if he is not here to defend himself.
By the attempts to condemn the Armanen Order by connecting it with
political groups, aren t Odin...@aol.com and Thurs...@aol.com engaging
in the same behavior they condemn christians and leftist are doing by
connecting Asatru with politics and the NSDAP. Just because some
Neo-Nazis might be a member of the Armanen Order does not make the
Armanen Order a Nazi group. More proof should be brought up before one
throws around implications like Nazi and Genocide .
If Odin...@aol.com and Thurs...@aol.com have a problem with possible
Ariosophic influences on Asatru, that is a different matter, but they
should be specific about what these influences are. They should also be
specific about what they mean by Ariosophsy - it is a HUGE topic, and
the each person they brought up - Kummer, Liebenfels and Marby - had some
fairly different ideas.
Odin...@aol.com brings up a supposed racist social organization in
reference to Schleipfer and the Guido von List Society. This tri-parcial
social structure can be found in the Song of Rig in the Poetic Edda. Does
Schleipfer really support slavery? Does he look down on the industrial
workers and farmers of this social structure? Them he certainly should not
be called a Nazi . Many of the NSDAP s leaders were enthralled with the
peasantry, and the SS soldiers were suppose to become gentlemen farmers
after the war.
With statements like We shall not let our heritage fall into the hands of
mass-murders again. If we do not fight them, who else will? It is our holy
symbols they abuse, our ancestors they claim for their filthy ideology,
our history they falsify, our tradition they distort, our Goddesses and
Gods they abuse as patrons for their infamies , I want to ask - It sounds
like you want a monopoly on Asatru, just the things complained about in
your posts about the Armanen Order and others. Asatru is NOT the Catholic
Church! NO ONE can be excommunicated from Asatru! One can be outlawed from
the community, but if these people you hate are Germanic - then you share
the same symbols, ancestors, history, traditions, and Goddesses and Gods -
whether you like it or not. What history has been distorted? What
traditions have been distorted?
-WolfRune1
Al Billings
Spoken like a Nazi, Wolferune. Are you a sympathizer, perhaps, or a member
of the group in Germany?
We have every right to be made aware of the misuse of Asatru symbolism and
even its name by such people. If they want to express therpoint of view, I
guess they should get on the net too.
--
===================================================================
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your
ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
-Howard Aiken
Al Billings http://www.memoria.com/alb/
mi...@memoria.com Iconoclast, Net.God, Dweeby Geek
===================================================================
odhi...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961121022...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wolf...@aol.com schreibt:
> I want to ask - It sounds
>like you want a monopoly on Asatru, just the things complained about in
>your posts about the Armanen Order and others. Asatru is NOT the Catholic
>Church! NO ONE can be excommunicated from Asatru! One can be outlawed
from
>the community, but if these people you hate are Germanic - then you share
>the same symbols, ancestors, history, traditions, and Goddesses and Gods
-
>whether you like it or not. What history has been distorted? What
>traditions have been distorted?
to that Carl explained enough over the last months about how "germanic"
people (who called themselves everything, but not Germanics) found their
identity (core of tradition etc.). It's ridiculous on that backgroud to
state that there are today people that are "germanic" - noone today has
that internalized core of tradition so noone today is "Germane" in that
sense. So i cannot hurt someones "Germanity" when there is none possible.
Those last-century-romantics are as far from historic reality as catholik
church is from the words of that Jesus-guy.
I DON'T SHARE Gods and Godesses, symbols, ancestors and history with
people whose ideology stands against humanity and who use that G.,G.,s.,a.
and h. (what is not the history i refer to - i don't see the "germanic
race" as come from Atlantis, worth much more than "animal-human-races"
etc.) just to "prove" that elite-race-thinking with it's consequences.
O'son
======== odhi...@aol.com =========
|\
|\ Veiztu, ef thu vin att, thann er thu vel truir,
| /| oc vill thu af hanom gott geta:
|/ |\ gedhi scaltu vidh thann blanda oc giofom scipta,
|/ fara at finna opt
|
William Bainbridge
wolf...@aol.com wrote in article
<19961121022...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> In response to some posts concerning Guido von List and the Armanen
> Futhark, the mention of the present Armanen Order and Adolf Schleipfer
was
> brought up. Odin...@aol.com and Thurs...@aol.com have made charges
> against Herr Schleipfer and the Armanen Order as both Ariosophic and
> Neo-Nazi - comparing them to the Viking Youth of modern-day Germany and
> pre-WWII occult groups such as the Thule Society.
>
> I am afraid most of us in the US are pretty ignorant of Herr Schleipfer
> and Asatru in Germany, so if names are going to be called, one should be
> very careful about what one says. It is not very fair to bring up Herr
> Schleipfer s name, if he is not here to defend himself.
It does seem reasonable that we not get into too many details of specific
accusations against groups that those of us outside of Germany have no way
of evaluating. This is a case of one person who lives there giving us
information that, if true, could be rather serious, but which information
we mostly aren't in a position to confirm or disprove. The Internet would
be a very poor substitute for a courtroom, and it would seem much more
productive for people to discuss their own ideas, rather than spend too
much time discussing the ideas of those who aren't here to represent the
ideas.
At the same time, I think it's also reasonable to draw distinctions
between people who are using Germanic symbols to do whatever they want to
do, and people who are really trying to understand and practice the
pre-Christian religion of the Germanic peoples. Germany is full of all
kinds of "occult" and "alternative" stuff that mixes German materials with
materials from elsewhere, and personal speculation or "inspiration."
Thorsson has written on several of these, including the Armanen Orden, and
I ran into a couple of them when I was stationed there, in the late '70s.
It is legitimate to point out that basing one's system of thought on a
combination of ancient, nineteenth century, and Mediterranean occult ideas
and symbols is not Asatru.
But yeah, let's go easy on the accusations of genocide, or consider
forwarding same to the International Court of Justice in the Hague. They
can at least do something about it, though not much.
> With statements like We shall not let our heritage fall into the hands
of
> mass-murders again. If we do not fight them, who else will? It is our
holy
> symbols they abuse, our ancestors they claim for their filthy ideology,
> our history they falsify, our tradition they distort, our Goddesses and
> Gods they abuse as patrons for their infamies , I want to ask - It
sounds
> like you want a monopoly on Asatru, just the things complained about in
> your posts about the Armanen Order and others. Asatru is NOT the Catholic
> Church! NO ONE can be excommunicated from Asatru! One can be outlawed
from
> the community, but if these people you hate are Germanic - then you share
> the same symbols, ancestors, history, traditions, and Goddesses and Gods
-
> whether you like it or not. What history has been distorted? What
> traditions have been distorted?
Well, nobody has a monopoly on what Asatru is, but that does not make it
whatever people want to say it is, either, regardless of how purely
Germanic the people might be. Was it a perversion of the swastika to stick
it on Auschwitz? I think we can all pretty much agree it was, so it is
possible for a Germanic symbol to be perverted by Germanic people. Is it a
perversion to use it in some context other than Asatru? No, of course not,
as Asatru does not have a monopoly on Germanic symbology, either. So you
are correct to ask for specifics on these statements, but I think we all
would need to understand more about what is going on with these people
before anyone can expect us to make an intelligent judgment on them one way
or another. And query to what extent an adequate discussion of them would
be entirely relevant to Asatru and this Newsgroup, unless they actually
claim to BE Asatru.
--
William Bainbridge
Tysg...@travelin.com (602) 731-9017
P.O. Box 25637, Tempe, AZ 85285-5637
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961121022...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wolf...@aol.com writes:
>, but if these people you hate are Germanic - then you share
>the same symbols, ancestors, history, traditions, and Goddesses and Gods
-
>whether you like it or not. What history has been distorted? What
>traditions have been distorted?
>
>
Sorry, its probably my fault.
From all the other discussions in this newsgroup I had got the impression
that we were talking Asatru here. If and when I have to find out that the
majority of Asatruar accepts Ariosophy, for being "germanic", as a
legitimate part of Asatru I am the one who is severely mistaken about what
Asatru is.
Thanks for implying Odhinnson and I want to monopolize our religion, we
needed that.
Well, I think Ariosophy just distorts the whole history and tradition of
the teutonic culture. I am studying this history and culture for fourteen
years now, but maybe I m wrong. Maybe it is perfectly acceptable to claim
that heathen religion is a belief system for the "lesser developed" lower
classes in society who cannot grasp the monotheistic Armanentum of the
elite, as List said. Maybe the "white master race" came from Atlantis and
founded all historical cultures, as List said. Maybe there was a caste of
priest-kings called the Armanen who were absolutistic rulers in teutonic
society, as Schleipfer said. Maybe this is not a distortion of history and
tradition. What do I know? But if this is Asatru, I have been following
the wrong religion for more than ten years.
Thurshoggr
Thurs...@aol.com
________________________________________
haettr er heimiskvidhr,
nema ser godhan geti
annars dags lattu hans ondo farit
ok launa sva lydhom lygi!
(Sigrdrifomal, 25/5ff)
Carl Edlund Anderson
In article <19961121022...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wolf...@aol.com wrote:
> With statements like We shall not let our heritage fall into the hands of
> mass-murders again. If we do not fight them, who else will? It is our holy
> symbols they abuse, our ancestors they claim for their filthy ideology,
> our history they falsify, our tradition they distort, our Goddesses and
> Gods they abuse as patrons for their infamies , I want to ask - It sounds
> like you want a monopoly on Asatru, just the things complained about in
> your posts about the Armanen Order and others. Asatru is NOT the Catholic
> Church! NO ONE can be excommunicated from Asatru! One can be outlawed from
> the same symbols, ancestors, history, traditions, and Goddesses and Gods -
> whether you like it or not. What history has been distorted? What
> traditions have been distorted?
Pardon me, but the distortion of Germanic spiritual traditions and
history by National Socialists in Germany (and other parts of the West) is
simply a well-established fact.
As has been pointed out, the fact that people share the same heritage
does not excuse dishonourable behaviour. No one is discusing a "Catholic"
Asatru or excommunication. We are discussing opposing people who act in
intolerable ways, whether they call themselves Asatru or not, whether they
use Asatru symbolism or not. These kinds of people should be opposed on
general principles, but the common use of Asatru-like symbolism by such
criminals makes it an especial concern for anyone who wishes a brighter
future for Asatru. I care not a whit for whatever beliefs in whatever gods
such people may profess--it does not excuse dishonourable words and deeds.
That they may share a cultural heritage with more respectable members of
society does not mean that they cannot pervert that cultural
heritage--indeed, the facts are irrefutable.
Cheers,
Carl
Carl Edlund Anderson
In article <01bbd7d9$ac0367c0$dcef...@tysgodhi.travelin.com>, "William
Bainbridge" <tysg...@travelin.com> wrote:
> At the same time, I think it's also reasonable to draw distinctions
> between people who are using Germanic symbols to do whatever they want to
> do, and people who are really trying to understand and practice the
> pre-Christian religion of the Germanic peoples.
Yes, we can draw that distinction but we are left with the problem that
the general public will not. There are, quite frankly, some parts of
Europe where simply wearing a Thors hammer indicates one is a neo-Nazi.
Dunno about anyone else, but I find this somewhat upsetting.
Cheers,
Carl
William Bainbridge
Carl Edlund Anderson <ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in article
<cea20-ya02318000...@nntp-serv.cam.ac.uk>...
> Yes, we can draw that distinction but we are left with the problem
that
> the general public will not. There are, quite frankly, some parts of
> Europe where simply wearing a Thors hammer indicates one is a neo-Nazi.
> Dunno about anyone else, but I find this somewhat upsetting.
Understandable, but apart from being upset, what does one do about it?
There are a number of possibilities, but my favorite has always been to
make responsible Asatru as strong and viable as possible, so that if the
general public does become aware of such things, we will have a _reality_
to show them that the people you are talking about are clearly on the
fringe. To date, the reality of what Asatru is for Asatruar hasn't been so
impressive that we have a lot of spare time and resources to concern
ourselves extensively with people who aren't Asatru.
Dorian Blackthorne
In article <cea20-ya02318000...@nntp-serv.cam.ac.uk>, ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Carl Edlund Anderson) wrote:
>
> Yes, we can draw that distinction but we are left with the problem that
>the general public will not. There are, quite frankly, some parts of
>Europe where simply wearing a Thors hammer indicates one is a neo-Nazi.
>Dunno about anyone else, but I find this somewhat upsetting.
>
>Cheers,
>Carl
Somewhat upsetting is definately one way of looking at it. And you are
correct, the general public will not make these distictions without large
amounts of assistance. It's up to us to provide that assistance.
Dorian
_________
A hoomun bieeng shooold be-a eble-a to chunge-a a deeepir, plun un infeseeon, bootchir a
hog, conn a sheep, diseegn a booeeldeeng, vreete-a a sonnit, belunce-a eccooonts, booeeld e
vell, sit a boni, comffort zee dyeeng, teke-a ooordirs, geefe-a ooordirs, coopireti, ect
eloni, solfe-a iqooeteeons, unelyze-a noo problims, peetch munoori, progrem a compootir,
cook a testy miel, feeght iffffeeceeeetly, deee-a gelluntly. Bork! Bork! Bork! Spiceeeleezeshun is for insicts. - Robirt E. Hieenlieen
ragna...@aol.com
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote in response to Wolf...@aol.com:
>Spoken like a Nazi, Wolferune. Are you a sympathizer, perhaps, or a
member
>of the group in Germany?
Only one problem with this Al....just about everyone who disagrees with
you is considered a "nazi" or a sympathizer of these people. Just because
a person asks questions where someone else got his/her information when
spreading rumours about others doesn't make that person a "nazi". Yes,
you can now return to your cave, Al, and await others to troll on.
Ragnar
Al Billings
ragna...@aol.com wrote:
: mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote in response to Wolf...@aol.com:
But Ragnar, sweety, this is my cave and you've wandered into it.
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel <cea20-ya02318000...@nntp-serv.cam.ac.uk>,
ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Carl Edlund Anderson says:
> There are, quite frankly, some parts of
>Europe where simply wearing a Thors hammer indicates one is a neo-Nazi.
>Dunno about anyone else, but I find this somewhat upsetting.
"somewhat upsetting" is, perhaps, the best way to express it. Our group
has a lot of experience with this. What is really upsetting is the fact
that a big part of the public cannot even be blamed. The only scientific
book about teutonic paganism in Germany is Schnurbeins "Religion als
Kulturkritik", a PhD. If you go and buy it you find it appears under
"rightist radicalism" in booksellers lists. Nice, huh? But Schnurbein
didnt invent anything. She documented what she found until late 1991. I
cannot blame her.
The real tragedy is the lack of information. People who feel drawn to our
religion usually ran straight into the arms of the groups I mentioned in
my information because they pose as the legitimate representatives of
Asatru in Germany. Everybody else was put down. You probably cannot
imagine the immense wave of hatred we experienced - and still experience -
from them and self-appointed witch-hunters. I even cannot blame the
majority of the members of the Armanenorden s Satellite organisations:
they never had a chance to distinguish between Asatru and Ariosophy
because they never got a chance to learn what Asatru really is.
One of the things I want to achieve is free choice for those people. In
order to achieve this, the power clique in Germany must be opposed.
"Der Armanen-orden ist das gesamte Germanen- und Keltentum in seiner
geistigen, seelischen und koerperlichen Eigenart" (the A.O. is the
completeness of Teutons and Celts in its mental, psychic and physical
appearence) Leitbild und Aufbau des Armanenordens, Ammerland, o.J.
They mean it. That s why I fight them.
Thanks, Carl. Thanks, Dorian.
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel <01bbd7d9$ac0367c0$dcef...@tysgodhi.travelin.com>, "William
Bainbridge" <tysg...@travelin.com> schreibt:
> This is a case of one person who lives there giving us
>information that, if true, could be rather serious, but which information
>we mostly aren't in a position to confirm or disprove.
This can be mended. I am familiar with this problem, and I understand it.
Who is to know whether my information is true or whether I just rant on
people I have a personal grudge against?
There is available proof. I hope it is generally acknowledged that
scientific study is a reliable source. The book I use to quote is
"Religion als Kulturkritik. Neugermanisches Heidentum im 20. Jahrhundert"
by Stefanie von Schnurbein, Carl Winter Universitaetsverlag Heidelberg
!992 (Skandinavistische Arbeiten, Bd.13) Please check how the word
"Asatru" is used in Germany, and by whom. Schnurbein quotes a lot of
material from these groups, see for yourself.
I am sorry my mentioning of Genocide was misunderstood. I do not call
Schleipfer a mass-murderer, indeed I hope he never has killed anyone. But
you certainly know that Ariosophy was the vital ideological base for the
Holocaust. I would appreciate some sympathy fo German Asatruar who are
definitely worried that this could happen again if we don t do our part in
preventing it. Excuse me for being emotional, but if you see the fear in
the eyes of Turkish children when they see a smeared Swastika beside their
front door you begin to understand that something must be done, Asatru or
not. What Odhinnson means is that all Asatruar should stand up against a
perusal of their religion as an ideological base for this. (he cannot tell
you personally, at the moment he cares for a sick person). The NSDAP
succeeeded bcause a lot of people stood idly by and thought it was not
their problem. (by the way, the rantings about foreigners in Germany I
read here are a shame)
Again: see for yourselves! I do not doubt for a moment what the
consquences will be.
bl...@teleport.com
In article <01bbd7d9$ac0367c0$dcef...@tysgodhi.travelin.com>, "William
Bainbridge" <tysg...@travelin.com> wrote:
>
> It does seem reasonable that we not get into too many details of
specific
> accusations against groups that those of us outside of Germany have no way
> information that, if true, could be rather serious, but which information
> be a very poor substitute for a courtroom, and it would seem much more
> productive for people to discuss their own ideas, rather than spend too
> much time discussing the ideas of those who aren't here to represent the
> ideas.
I agree, and would ad that simply saying you can quote from a book that
says it too, doesn't mean much either. Is the book really "scientific"?
Who knows? Does the author have a personal axe to grind? Probably, most
do.
At the same time, I think it's also reasonable to draw distinctions
> between people who are using Germanic symbols to do whatever they want to
> do, and people who are really trying to understand and practice the
> pre-Christian religion of the Germanic peoples. Germany is full of all
> kinds of "occult" and "alternative" stuff that mixes German materials with
> materials from elsewhere, and personal speculation or "inspiration."
> Thorsson has written on several of these, including the Armanen Orden, and
> I ran into a couple of them when I was stationed there, in the late '70s.
> It is legitimate to point out that basing one's system of thought on a
> combination of ancient, nineteenth century, and Mediterranean occult ideas
> and symbols is not Asatru.
Right, and the New Agers are as guilty as the "Ariosophists" from what I
can see.
>
> But yeah, let's go easy on the accusations of genocide, or consider
> forwarding same to the International Court of Justice in the Hague. They
> can at least do something about it, though not much.
Great idea! I hope Odhinnson and his friends will persue this. I'd like
them to tell us the results, or why they don't want to persue. They seem
very adamant that "ariosophy" leads to the Fourth Reich, so they could
write this all up for the ICJ in Den Haag and presuming they're convincing
enough, maybe make a preemptive strike against the nascent
ariosoph-directed Holocaust. Sounds like a better use of their time than
ranting to a tiny newsgroup which has little influence on much of
anything, especially in their native Germany.
And query to what extent an adequate discussion of them would
> be entirely relevant to Asatru and this Newsgroup, unless they actually
> claim to BE Asatru.
From what I've seen of Thorsson's writings (generally accurate in matters
such as this), they claim to be Aramanenshaft, not "Asatru" in the sense
we talk about it here.
Heil den Goettern!
Michael
bl...@teleport.com
In article <cea20-ya02318000...@nntp-serv.cam.ac.uk>,
ce...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Carl Edlund Anderson) wrote:
>
> As has been pointed out, the fact that people share the same heritage
> does not excuse dishonourable behaviour. No one is discusing a "Catholic"
> Asatru or excommunication. We are discussing opposing people who act in
> intolerable ways, whether they call themselves Asatru or not, whether they
> use Asatru symbolism or not. These kinds of people should be opposed on
> general principles, but the common use of Asatru-like symbolism by such
> criminals makes it an especial concern for anyone who wishes a brighter
> future for Asatru. I care not a whit for whatever beliefs in whatever gods
> such people may profess--it does not excuse dishonourable words and deeds.
I don't disagree with you about dishonorable deeds, but I've seen no
evidence that the people these folks from German are so upset about (ie
Herr Schleipfer) have done any.
What I do find slightly ironic is how they claim that Schleipfer & Co.
told them they couldn't practice as Gothis, because they weren't certified
from Iceland. Strange deja vu, as Al Billings was just saying a few days
ago that someone who posts thoughtful things to this group (yet
_coincidentally_ happens to be in major disagreement with Al) "wasn't
Asatru" because they didn't fit with the definition of the word that Al
got from someone in Iceland (which, as I suspected, and as Susan Granquist
pointed out, isn't even really correct--the word "tru" has a number of
different levels of meaning, not just the simple "belief in" as our little
friend Al was claiming to be holy writ).
Cheers to you to,
Michael
bl...@teleport.com
In article <19961123142...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
thurs...@aol.com wrote:
> There is available proof. I hope it is generally acknowledged that
> scientific study is a reliable source. The book I use to quote is
> "Religion als Kulturkritik. Neugermanisches Heidentum im 20. Jahrhundert"
> by Stefanie von Schnurbein, Carl Winter Universitaetsverlag Heidelberg
> !992 (Skandinavistische Arbeiten, Bd.13) Please check how the word
> "Asatru" is used in Germany, and by whom. Schnurbein quotes a lot of
> material from these groups, see for yourself.
This doesn't "prove" anything I'm afraid, not to mention the fact that
sadly 99% of people reading this newsgroup wouldn't be able to read the
book anyway. Their are innumberable "scholarly" books published all the
time that could hardly be called objective. No doubt this woman has her
own view she trying to push through, and as a result she of course
selectively quotes whatever advances that view, and she ignores the rest.
The fact this book is *published* by the Heidelberg Univ. Press pretty
much guarantees it's of a leftist slant. The university there is known to
be a hippy-dippy-left wing haven.
> I am sorry my mentioning of Genocide was misunderstood. I do not call
> Schleipfer a mass-murderer, indeed I hope he never has killed anyone.
By remarking this you still make it sound like there's a good chance he
might have.
But
> you certainly know that Ariosophy was the vital ideological base for the
> Holocaust.
This is a blanket statement and a gross generalization. The Nazis went out
of their way to persecute such occult groups and shut them down. Hitler
railed against such "volkish" conglomerations from day one.
So you want us to "do something" about all this? Do you recommend we
mindlessly start slandering groups and individuals we have no contact with
just because you told us they're bad nasty people?
Seems a bit ludicrous to me.
Heil den Goettern!
Michael
PS-Replying "spoken like a true Nazi" to people's replies which don't
readily accept your accusations isn't really helping your cause you know.
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel <blood-23119...@ip-pdx03-22.teleport.com>,
bl...@teleport.com schreibt:
>PS-Replying "spoken like a true Nazi" to people's replies which don't
>readily accept your accusations isn't really helping your cause you know.
Maybe this is your usual accuracy. I did not say this. The man they call
the troll said it. In public speeches, I use the term "Nazi" with care, it
is reserved for Nazis, you know. I didnt call anybody on this newsgroup a
Nazi.
Interesting you are so afraid of Schnurbeins book. Fascinating you rant on
the Department of new philologyy of Frankfurt university, who accepted the
PhD, and the editors of the Skandinavistische Arbeiten in Heidelberg. You
are certainly more accurate and precise than they are.
You know, your remarks about the country I happen to live in are always
enlightening. I always wondered why this song "dont know much about
history..." became so popular, but now I got an idea:->
Not surprising you bring on the fairy-tale of the persecution the
Ariosophians suffered in the Third Reich. The NSDAP just had the
philosophy about power and weapons you uttered in other strains of this
newsgroup. The party absorbed the ideas and disposed of the sect leaders
when they went uppish. The holocaust was based on the ideas of Liebenfels
who had been a member of the Guido-von-List-Gesellschaft, whose president
Adolf Schleipfer became in 1967. I know it is useless to discuss history
with people who write "Blut und Boden" under their messages (German or
English makes no real difference), but maybe some of the others are
interested. I fervently hope Carl has something to say about it.
So you think historical accuracy is a bad thing? Fascinating, really:->
thurs...@aol.com
>Right, and the New Agers are as guilty as the "Ariosophists" from what I
>can see.
Don t know much about history...:->
Funny. Never heard on genocide based on New Age. I do not approve of New
Age, but to compare them with people like List und Liebenfels is a little
odd, isn t it?
odhi...@aol.com
Im Artikel <01bbd88d$d288f540$dea5...@tysgodhi.travelin.com>, "William
Bainbridge" <tysg...@travelin.com> schreibt:
> but my favorite has always been to
>make responsible Asatru as strong and viable as possible, so that if the
>general public does become aware of such things, we will have a _reality_
>to show them that the people you are talking about are clearly on the
>fringe.
And that is exactly what we should try...and what we try. But this public
will not accept (as i hope they wouldn't!) if there are Nazis or "just"
ariosophic racists who hide behind Asatru.
odhi...@aol.com
Im Artikel <01bbd7d9$ac0367c0$dcef...@tysgodhi.travelin.com>, "William
Bainbridge" <tysg...@travelin.com> schreibt:
>And query to what extent an adequate discussion of them would
>be entirely relevant to Asatru and this Newsgroup, unless they actually
>claim to BE Asatru.
They don't only claim to be - they claim to DEFINE it ;-)
odhi...@aol.com
>The fact this book is *published* by the Heidelberg Univ. Press pretty
>much guarantees it's of a leftist slant. The university there is known to
>be a hippy-dippy-left wing haven.
:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
What has the name of a scientific publisher to do with the reputation of a
University? Don't talk about things you obviously have no knowledge of -
here history (oh, there was a song...).
BTW, as in Germany Universities are bound on thze ministry of culture,
there are no real "lefty" Unis here :)))) they are told (esp. the one in
Heidelberg) as very konservative, and that they are... ROTFL
William Bainbridge
odhi...@aol.com wrote in article
<19961125002...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >And query to what extent an adequate discussion of them would
> >be entirely relevant to Asatru and this Newsgroup, unless they actually
> >claim to BE Asatru.
>
> They don't only claim to be - they claim to DEFINE it ;-)
Odd. But at any rate, claiming to define Asatru is a public relations
loser, as probably several folks right on this Newsgroup can attest.
Asatru is either a folk religion, or it's another made-up crock that will
rise and fall like any number of other made-up religions, traditions,
mystery schools, or whatever. Folk religions define themselves, and they
don't usually do it with bright lines and clear edges. There are usually a
lot of nooks and crannies in folk religions, too, but the basic good sense
of the people usually keeps them from affecting things too much. One thing
Michael said is very true: things can only be dangerous if there is power
in them. If there weren't power in Asatru, how interested would _we_ be in
it? But powerful things always attract people who would abuse power. This
is an age-old problem, and we can't avoid it. The question is whether we
can handle it skillfully, or whether the people who abuse the power of
Germanic spirituality will win, because we blew it. Simply screaming at
them will win nothing. Only sustained, positive work will succeed.
wolf...@aol.com
odin...@aol.com says:
>>...Carl explained... how germanic people... found their identity.
SO, I don t happen to agree with everything Carl says. I specifically do
not agree with what he classifies as Asatru, specifically being limited to
the Scandinavians between 800-1000 or what ever period of time he keeps
insisting Asatru s belief system should be limited too.
>> I DON T SHARE Gods and Goddesses, symbols, ancestors and history with
people
>> who use that G., G., s.,a. and h. (what is not history I refer to - I
don t see the germanic
>>race as come from Atlantis, worth much more than animal-human-races
etc.) just
>>to prove that elite-race-thinking with it s consequences.
I wonder if you have ANY idea how utterly absurd and pompous you sound
claim the Aesir and Vanir as only the gods of people who agree with you.
If all these people you disagree with believe in the Aesir and Vanir, and
you claim to believe in the Aesir and Vanir too, then you share those Gods
and Goddesses. If they are German and you are German - you share the same
history and ancestors. How you view those Gods and Goddesses and how you
interpret history and such may be different too, but you share them all
the same, just like you breath the same air, and the same sun shines down
on you. You may not like it, but it is true.
wolf...@aol.com
Carl, your response to my post is completely off base.
I was not talking about National Socialism, but about the name Nazi
being thrown around about specific groups and people in Germany, with out
any proof . I was responding to the Armanen order being roughly grouped
with neo-nazi groups, just because O son and his friend disagree with
them.
I brought nothing up about dishonorable behavior.
What I brought up that O son and his friend shout and rant about not
sharing the gods with others who call them selves Asatru who they disagree
with. At least I have not seen anyone try to do this in Vinland.
Did you read my post at all? From your response I wouldn t think so.
wolf...@aol.com
Al Billings says:
>> Spoken like a nazi, Wolfrune. Are you a sympathizer, perhaps,
>>or a member of the group in Germany?
As I didn t end my post with Sieg Heil! or Heil Hitler! -- how did I
speak like a nazi ?
All I tried to do is call for some reason, facts and polite behavior and
discussion. Are you opposed to these Al?
I really can t say I know much about the Armanen Order as it exists today.
That is why I asked for facts to be brought up, if the Armanen called
themselves Asatru and were then characterized as a distorting influence on
Asatru. Do you have a problem with facts Al? Or would you rather base your
opinion on a group you know nothing about on ranting and hearsay?
>>We have every right to be made aware of the misuse of Asatru symbolism
and even its name
>>by such people. If they want to express their point of view, I guess
they should get on the net too.
I never said anything against be made aware of misuses of Asatru. I asked
for facts if such statements were brought up. Maybe you feel comfortable
throwing names around, but some people don t.
So if someone is not on the net, it is OK to slander them - is that what
your are saying. Or are you saying anything at all except calling people
names.
wolf...@aol.com
thurs...@aol.com says:
>> If and when I have to find out that the majority of Asatruar accepts
Ariosophy,
>>for being germanic , as a legitimate part of Asatru I am the one who is
severely
>>mistaken about what Asatru is.
But once again thurs...@aol.com, you are hardly specific by what you
mean by Ariosophy. What do you mean by Ariosophy? Please be specific. It
seems that you group every folkish/occultist that may have influenced the
leaders of the Third Reich. What is the danger that Ariosophy on Asatru? I
have some idea when I try to read between all your ranting and finally
bring up some vague specifics like a different hierarchy of beliefs
between the priests and peasants of the Armanen s view of the past. Maybe
you mean a Aryan homeland of Atlantis? I have heard some even stranger
origins for the origin of the white race ... But, you only throw out
phrases in the middle of ranting, bring up specifics please.
I imagine that if there was a priest class among the Germans (which does
not seem to be the case looking at Germania, but seems to be more of an
influence of Celtic/Druidic thought) their ideas about the Aesir and Vanir
would be different than the peasantry. I even imagine they would even
worship different gods and goddesses in the families of the Aesir and
Vanir. Plenty of scholars imply this when they say Odin was the God of
Kings and poets and Thor was the god of fighting men and peasants. Are
there scholars now Ariosophists ? Is Dumezil an Ariosophist because of
his statements about a three level function of Germanic Society akin to
that found in India? Are YOU an Ariosophist for using the Indian word
Swastika in one of your posts, opposed to the German Hakenkruetz or
Icelandic Thorshamar ? (Sorry if I misspelled Hook-Cross I can t find
my German English dictionary right now)
Who is the monotheistic god the Armanen worship? Like I have tried to say
in my previous post, unless there are specifics brought up, you will have
people question your characterizations of groups that are not very well
know outside of your country. Just because Liebenfel s was a member of the
List society does not make the present Armanen followers of Liebenfel s
thoughts. Maybe they do, I don t know as you have presented little proof.
And if they agree on some things, that doesn t mean they agree on
everything. From the little I know of Liebenfel, he was interested in the
bible and medievalism, so I don t know if he can properly be called a
Theopist or Ariosophist.
Susan Granquist
On Sat, 23 Nov 1996 bl...@teleport.com wrote:
> In article <01bbd7d9$ac0367c0$dcef...@tysgodhi.travelin.com>, "William
> Bainbridge" <tysg...@travelin.com> wrote:
> >
> > It does seem reasonable that we not get into too many details of
> specific
> > accusations against groups that those of us outside of Germany have no way
> > of evaluating. This is a case of one person who lives there giving us
> > information that, if true, could be rather serious, but which information
> > we mostly aren't in a position to confirm or disprove. The Internet would
> > be a very poor substitute for a courtroom, and it would seem much more
> > productive for people to discuss their own ideas, rather than spend too
> > much time discussing the ideas of those who aren't here to represent the
> > ideas.
>
> I agree, and would ad that simply saying you can quote from a book that
> says it too, doesn't mean much either. Is the book really "scientific"?
> Who knows? Does the author have a personal axe to grind? Probably, most
> do.
On the other hand, when the same reports come from different people, who
have no prior contact with one another, yet have the same views on a
group, and who seem to be treated the same by that other group, then there
is at least a reason to begin to wonder if there isn't more there then a
personal axe to grind.
One of the advantages of the internet is that it promotes an international
community...and an international community that is rather small for all
the distances between the members. I do agree that it would be reasonable
to ask Schleipfer about his views personally. Does anyone have his
address? Could anyone provide a list of his publications, or is there
anyone in his organization that can speak authoriatively in this forum?
I realize that access to this newsgroup is somewhat limited, but I can
offer the Asatru-L list as an open forum. Schleipfer is welcome to
discuss his views, his claims to legitimate Asatru and so on with the
people there who have actually managed to hold civilized discussions on
such topics as Marxism and National Socialism.
>
>
> At the same time, I think it's also reasonable to draw distinctions
> > between people who are using Germanic symbols to do whatever they want to
> > do, and people who are really trying to understand and practice the
> > pre-Christian religion of the Germanic peoples. Germany is full of all
> > kinds of "occult" and "alternative" stuff that mixes German materials with
> > materials from elsewhere, and personal speculation or "inspiration."
> > Thorsson has written on several of these, including the Armanen Orden, and
> > I ran into a couple of them when I was stationed there, in the late '70s.
> > It is legitimate to point out that basing one's system of thought on a
> > combination of ancient, nineteenth century, and Mediterranean occult ideas
> > and symbols is not Asatru.
>
> Right, and the New Agers are as guilty as the "Ariosophists" from what I
> can see.
There is a difference, in that the New Agers do not call themselves
Asatru, nor suggest that they hold authority in it or attempt to tell
others who or what they can or can't believe, or can or can't practice.
Another thing that might be of interest in discussion here is the time
periods that the Germanic people converted to Christianity, or were
converted to Christianity...
> > But yeah, let's go easy on the accusations of genocide, or consider
> > forwarding same to the International Court of Justice in the Hague. They
> > can at least do something about it, though not much.
>
> Great idea! I hope Odhinnson and his friends will persue this. I'd like
> them to tell us the results, or why they don't want to persue. They seem
> very adamant that "ariosophy" leads to the Fourth Reich, so they could
> write this all up for the ICJ in Den Haag and presuming they're convincing
> enough, maybe make a preemptive strike against the nascent
> ariosoph-directed Holocaust. Sounds like a better use of their time than
> ranting to a tiny newsgroup which has little influence on much of
> anything, especially in their native Germany.
Yes, it does doesn't it?
I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the discussion to see how the
"nascent arisoph-directed Holocaust" comes into it however. It seems that
the complaints they made were that the group is telling them, and vice
versa admittedly, that they 'can't' be Asatru because in one case they
have "the only authority" and in the other case, they can't accept the
associations. I can perhaps understand the "can't accept" what someone
would view as an exploitive association, what I really can't understand is
where anyone would get the idea that there was a heirophant or heirarchal
and central authority for Asatru. Certainly the Icelanders aren't
claiming that they are the sole authority.
I quote from their own brochure (which is available in Icelandic, English,
German and French):
"A'satru'arfe'lagidh" The Pagan association, extracts from the Code of
Conduct...
- We base our religion on the belief in AEsir (the gods of old Pagan
Iceland).
- It is permitted to worship other gods and other sacred beings.
- Every one is responsible for himself and all his actions.
- Statues may be dedicated to the gods, but no one is obliged to worship
them.
- All forms of worship are permitted, within law and order.
- Those that deem theselves pagan and reside in Iceland can join the
assocation.
- We promise to honour the religion and culture of our ancestors.
> And query to what extent an adequate discussion of them would
> > be entirely relevant to Asatru and this Newsgroup, unless they actually
> > claim to BE Asatru.
>
> From what I've seen of Thorsson's writings (generally accurate in matters
> such as this), they claim to be Aramanenshaft, not "Asatru" in the sense
> we talk about it here.
Matters such as what?
I do agree that it wouldn't be particularly relevant unless they are
claiming to be Asatru, or even more importantly as far as I personally am
concerned, telling others that they can't be or that they have to join in
order to be.
Regards,
Susan Granquist
Susan Granquist
On Sat, 23 Nov 1996 bl...@teleport.com wrote:
> In article <19961123142...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> thurs...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > There is available proof. I hope it is generally acknowledged that
> > scientific study is a reliable source. The book I use to quote is
> > "Religion als Kulturkritik. Neugermanisches Heidentum im 20. Jahrhundert"
> > by Stefanie von Schnurbein, Carl Winter Universitaetsverlag Heidelberg
> > !992 (Skandinavistische Arbeiten, Bd.13) Please check how the word
> > "Asatru" is used in Germany, and by whom. Schnurbein quotes a lot of
> > material from these groups, see for yourself.
>
> This doesn't "prove" anything I'm afraid, not to mention the fact that
> sadly 99% of people reading this newsgroup wouldn't be able to read the
> book anyway. Their are innumberable "scholarly" books published all the
> time that could hardly be called objective. No doubt this woman has her
> own view she trying to push through, and as a result she of course
> selectively quotes whatever advances that view, and she ignores the rest.
> The fact this book is *published* by the Heidelberg Univ. Press pretty
> much guarantees it's of a leftist slant. The university there is known to
> be a hippy-dippy-left wing haven.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a copy of this and post the
pertinent parts to the newsgroup.
Dismissing it as "no doubt this woman has her own view she is trying to
push" is ridiculous particularly when suggesting that objectivity is
necessary, and typifying the university as "hippy-dippy-left wing" equally
suggests something of a bias, whether that was your intention or not.
> > you certainly know that Ariosophy was the vital ideological base for the
> > Holocaust.
>
> This is a blanket statement and a gross generalization. The Nazis went out
> of their way to persecute such occult groups and shut them down. Hitler
> railed against such "volkish" conglomerations from day one.
But he wasn't above using them or promoting them when it suited his
purposes either, and "generally" prior to shutting them down. Arisophany
actually is quite "Germanic." However, it is not Asatru. There has never
been a "supreme leader" in Asatru. It was one of the reasons that paganry
did not stand up to the onslaught...too many factions and groups.
> So you want us to "do something" about all this? Do you recommend we
> mindlessly start slandering groups and individuals we have no contact with
> just because you told us they're bad nasty people?
>
> Seems a bit ludicrous to me.
You're right, we shouldn't be, but we should be concerned either way and
looking for some accurate information, don't you think?
Regards,
Susan Granquist
William Bainbridge
bl...@teleport.com wrote in article
<blood-23119...@ip-pdx03-22.teleport.com>...
> From what I've seen of Thorsson's writings (generally accurate in matters
> such as this), they claim to be Aramanenshaft, not "Asatru" in the sense
> we talk about it here.
That was my impression as well. I don't know how in touch ET is with the
current Armanen people, but the whole mindset is quite distant from how we
approach Asatru. ET has buddies in the Temple of Set, too, but I don't
know many of those who call themselves "Asatru," and Thorsson doesn't even
like the word.
Susan Granquist
On 25 Nov 1996 wolf...@aol.com wrote:
> Carl, your response to my post is completely off base.
>
> I was not talking about National Socialism, but about the name Nazi
> being thrown around about specific groups and people in Germany, with out
> any proof . I was responding to the Armanen order being roughly grouped
> with neo-nazi groups, just because O son and his friend disagree with
> them.
Could someone could define the difference between "Nazi" and National
Socialism?
One of the things we need to keep in mind is that this an international
gorup and the terms don't always mean the same to those in one country as
they do in another. I suspect that when a German uses "Nazi" they have a
diffeernt understanding then someone from America might.
> What I brought up that O son and his friend shout and rant about not
> sharing the gods with others who call them selves Asatru who they disagree
> with. At least I have not seen anyone try to do this in Vinland.
Apparently you haven't been reading the newsgroups long have you? :)
Regards,
Susan Granquist
Susan Granquist
On 25 Nov 1996 odhi...@aol.com wrote:
> Im Artikel <01bbd88d$d288f540$dea5...@tysgodhi.travelin.com>, "William
> Bainbridge" <tysg...@travelin.com> schreibt:
>
> > but my favorite has always been to
> >make responsible Asatru as strong and viable as possible, so that if the
> >general public does become aware of such things, we will have a _reality_
> >to show them that the people you are talking about are clearly on the
> >fringe.
>
> And that is exactly what we should try...and what we try. But this public
> will not accept (as i hope they wouldn't!) if there are Nazis or "just"
> ariosophic racists who hide behind Asatru.
If they're hiding, or using Asatru to gain attempt to gain credibility
then it's an admission that they have none of their own.
It's interesting that in the exchanges here that more often there are
confrontations about "What do you believe" then statments of what "I
believe." Maybe the way to make the differences clear is for more of us
to be telling people what we believe, and what Asatru is, not what it
isn't.
While I don't always agree with Doug, for instance, I enjoy his comments
and insights. And I admire the courage that it takes to state his beliefs
and stand good for them. He's never walked away because he's been
"insulted" or because he was condemned. He's explained his views, and
raised issues that are of interest to the whole community. I've never
seen him put a personal agenda or desire to change others ahead of that
sense of integrity. He's Asatru as far as I'm concerned.
People who throw "us" around or who need groups to validate their ideas
and beliefs are usually afraid that they're wrong. They generally lack a
sense of conviction concerning their views. You find that in the Christian
community as much as anywhere else. It's part of the "bully" mentality.
Few need to point out that they're not "Christian" even if they're
Christains and I doubt that it will be much different for Asatruar.
Asatruar don't hide behind others. They are willing to state their
beliefs and live them...and even die for them if they have to, but not as
martyrs. A noble death as well as a noble life is part of the
belief...and a noble death is far easier then a noble life. Maybe those
that hide will avoid the battle now....or appear to "win" it...but I think
that the Havamal ahs it right. "Cattle die and kinsmen die, theyself eke
soon wilt die; but fair fame will fade never, I ween, for him who wins
it."
If they can't stand on their own, win fame through their own deeds, then
they'll pass away and be forgotten. Asatru isn't just for today. Just as
we look back now, so others will look back to us. May we all live to be
worthy of honor in the sumble.
Regards,
Susan Granquist
Collins
ragna...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Only one problem with this Al....just about everyone who disagrees with
> you is considered a "nazi" or a sympathizer of these people. Just because
> a person asks questions where someone else got his/her information when
> spreading rumours about others doesn't make that person a "nazi". Yes,
> you can now return to your cave, Al, and await others to troll on.
>
I disagree. From what I have seen of Al's posts, those whom he calls
"racists" just happen to be people who made it somewhat clear that they
do or would discriminate based on race. Those who he has called "Nazis"
seem to propagate the same philosophies as the National Socialists.
Although Al sometimes has a somewhat "up front in your face" approach, I
have never known him to accuse someone of being a "Nazi" just because
they disagreed with him.
I really don't think Al is being a troll. I think he is just doing a
good job in digging for the clear truth in otherwise foggy statements.
_____ __________________
\ / Mark Collins | |\ /| /|\ |
|___| mcol...@qualcomm.com |. | X | //| \ / .|
0////////////|___||>> |. |/ \| / | / / .|
| | |. | | |/ \ .|
/_____\ | | | |\ \ |
|__|___|___|_\_____|
ragna...@aol.com
thurs...@aol.com writes:
>Interesting you are so afraid of Schnurbeins book. Fascinating you rant
on
>the Department of new philologyy of Frankfurt university, who accepted
the
>PhD, and the editors of the Skandinavistische Arbeiten in Heidelberg. You
>are certainly more accurate and precise than they are.
>You know, your remarks about the country I happen to live in are always
>enlightening. I always wondered why this song "dont know much about
>history..." became so popular, but now I got an idea:->
(or nazis in some people's view) I would question the work itself. Or do
you think that just because its in writing it must be true? If that's the
case you could move to the Eastern part of the Ukraine, since they seem to
believe everything in writing. :) Also, just because someone has a PhD
doesn't make them right....it just <supposedly> gives their POV more
credibility.
Ahhh, no one has friends or family in other countries now do they
thurshoggr? :) Better yet, no even visits other countries...their ideas,
thoughts and beliefs just pop out of nowhere. :) I do seem to remember
quite a few German views that weren't accurate about the US and vice
versa.
>Not surprising you bring on the fairy-tale of the persecution the
>Ariosophians suffered in the Third Reich. The NSDAP just had the
>philosophy about power and weapons you uttered in other strains of this
>newsgroup. The party absorbed the ideas and disposed of the sect leaders
>when they went uppish.
When they (sect leaders) went "uppish"? The regular membership of various
groups were cracked down on as well. Basically each side tried to
manipulate the other, thinking that they could control the other when
power was gained...both sides were wrong. In the end, the heathen side
lost for the most part, except for small holdouts in the SS and
environmental organization...and even this aspect was very quiet after the
deluge.
> I fervently hope Carl has something to say about it.
>So you think historical accuracy is a bad thing? Fascinating, really:->
Just curious, do you need Carl to legitamize your beliefs? He isn't a
pope of Asatru (a least that I've seen so far :). Historical accuracy is
of the utmost importance, but history is written by the victors and that
slants what is written heavily. To your health.
In kinship...
Ragnar
PS: Just curious, why don't you and Odhinnson use your real names? No
one is going to crack down on you...religous freedom remember? :)
odhi...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961125034...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wolf...@aol.com schreibt:
> If they are German and you are German - you share the same
>history and ancestors.
No, i'm not related to one of them. My ancestores are.
odhi...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961125222...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
odhi...@aol.com schreibt:
>No, i'm not related to one of them. My ancestores are.
Oops, i hit the wrong button.
so: No, i'm not related to one of them. My ancestors are my relatives.
With "bloodline" and without (as i have adopted relatives, who
nevertheless are part of the family at the same level of relation!)
odhi...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961125221...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
ragna...@aol.com schreibt:
>PS: Just curious, why don't you and Odhinnson use your real names? No
>one is going to crack down on you...religous freedom remember? :)
My Birthname is Sven Scholz, Odhinnson is my religious name and therefore
as "real" as the other, sometimes more real than the other ;->, living in
Heidelberg, Germany, studiing Germanistics (Mediaevistics) and Paedagogics
there.
BTW, a friend of mine has lost his front teeths by that "religious
freedom" - by supergermans who showed him the supremacy of the "germanic
race", because he just told them, that the thorshammer he weared did not
mean that they were "comrades", as they believed.
Any more problems, ragnars145?
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961125034...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wolf...@aol.com writes::
> From the little I know of Liebenfel, he was interested in the
>bible and medievalism, so I don t know if he can properly be called a
>Theopist or Ariosophist.
Theosophy origially had nothing to do with Teutonic heathenry, and
Ariosophy does not automatically imply any use (ore, more properly: abuse)
of Teutonic tradition or religion. There is no neccessary connection.
Ariosophy is a racist cosmology based on theosophy. So Liebenfels was -
and his followers are - proper Ariosophists without ever being "heathen".
Some non-heathen Ariosophists are in permanent contact with the
Armanenorden.
People get confused about terminology for two reasons: one is the Term
"aryan" that has nothing to do with Teutonic tradition, as was pointed out
in this newsgroup before. The other is the fact that Guido List invented a
branch of Ariosophy that was "based on" Teutonic tradition, i.e. he stole
and perverted elements of Teutonic tradition and mingled them with the
originally multi-religious theosophical mainstream that defined an
absolute cosmic hierarchy.
The third Reich formed its own ideology basically on Liebenfels but used
the outward "trappings" List had provided. Make no mistake: List was a
racist, an anti-semite and a promoter of slavery for "inferior races" who
were not to be granted civil rights. He and Liebenfels exchanged many
ideas, and whereas you are right in stating there were - and are -
differences the points they have in common are much more important.
Schleipfer, now, uses List as his main authority. Stating that Lists
teachings are authentic in respect to Teutonic history, tradition and
religion is ridiculous. To claim that followers of List are the superior
elite of Teutonic tradition, as the Armanenorden claims, must be rejected
by anybody who has any claim on historical knowledge. So, Ariosophy and
Armanism are not Asatru, Asatru being defined as the modern equivalent of
ancient Teutonic faith, tradition and culture.
thurs...@aol.com
>Just curious, do you need Carl to legitamize your beliefs? He isn't a
>pope of Asatru (a least that I've seen so far :).
But yes, of course! I "rant" (as Wolfrune names it) against people who
have the gall to "legitimate" Asatru just because I want somebody else to
take this position...please, Ragnar! To "legitamize" I need him not, but
he does not have my language and background problems.
So you know Germany, do you? Wenn einer, der mit Muehe kaum/gekrochen ist
auf einen Baum/schon meint, dass er ein Vogel waer/ der irrt sich sehr
(Wilhelm Busch)
If Odhinnson and I would have wanted it easy we could just have joined the
people we fight.
I take your insinuations as a little joke, right? :->
To your health, Ragnar.
ragna...@aol.com
odhi...@aol.com writes:
>BTW, a friend of mine has lost his front teeths by that "religious
>freedom" - by supergermans who showed him the supremacy of the "germanic
>race", because he just told them, that the thorshammer he weared did not
>mean that they were "comrades", as they believed.
>Any more problems, ragnars145?
Just one O'son: When you have a fist coming towards you...try and 1.)
Move out of the way or 2.) Block it and fire one straight back at him.
Personally I prefer choice #2. We aren't limp-wristed christians after
all! :)
As for true religous freedom in Germany...I don't think it exists. I
wasn't serious when I made the comment.
BTW, as for your studies...Veilen Gluck!
Ragnar Schuett (my birth name)
ragna...@aol.com
elf jahre aber Ich verstehen sie.
>To your health, Ragnar.
And yours, Thurshoggr.
Ragnar
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961126201...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
ragna...@aol.com schreibt:
>Just one O'son: When you have a fist coming towards you...try and 1.)
>Move out of the way or 2.) Block it and fire one straight back at him.
>Personally I prefer choice #2. We aren't limp-wristed christians after
>all! :)
Hey Ragnar - could it be we have reached common ground?
In this, I agree with you. The man in Odhinnsons example did not have a
real chance, it would have gone otherwise if Odhinnson or I had been with
him. We have the habit of caring for our people.
Must be an Asatru habit.
To your health, Ragnar
odhi...@aol.com
>Just one O'son: When you have a fist coming towards you...try and 1.)
>Move out of the way or 2.) Block it and fire one straight back at him.
>Personally I prefer choice #2. We aren't limp-wristed christians after
>all! :)
Just one Ragnar: I have my all teeths - you can guess why ;)))
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel <19961126203...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
ragna...@aol.com schreibt:
>Mein deutsche sind sehr schlect. Ich habe nicht gesprochen im
>elf jahre aber Ich verstehen sie.
Dafuer ist es gar nicht so uebel. Ist eine ganz schoen schwierige Sprache,
oder? Vielleicht verstehst Du, wie es Odhinnson und mir manchmal zumute
ist.
(I ll stop that now before we get coplaints about cryptic messages)
thurs...@aol.com
Im Artikel
<Pine.LNX.3.95.96112...@instinct.lycanthrope.org>,
<isb...@lycanthrope.org> schreibt:
> The magical techniques of the
>Armanen writings remain quite valid
to whom?
, and can easily be separated from any
>racial content that they may have contained as a result of the time
period
>in which they were written.
No they can t. List, and the others, too, merely invented new "magical"
systems to fit their ideology, and don t tll me there is no conection
between magical practice and basic thought processes. Magical sytems work
on the base of a cosmology, and if this cosmology is Ariosophy every
magical act derived from it sustains and feeds it. Of course, this was and
is intended.
Besides, forgt "result of the time period". Don t tell me racism was the
mainstream of Germany and Austria at the turning o the century. Only the
reactionaries thronged about extreme nationalism, militarism and racism.
At this time period other people fought for democracy, free speech, equal
rights for women, workers rights and religious freedom. Thanks to them we
can discuss here, thanks to them we can speak our mind wthout being
incarcerated or shot, thanks to them we can lead the lives we lead and
even declare ourselves heathens in xtian states without fearing for our
lives. No thanks to the Arosophists: if they had had it their way medieval
tyranny would look like a holiday camp compared to their system. Check
your history!
thurs...@aol.com
>The essence of National Socialism cannot be found in List,
>Marby, and Kummer. For that, one need look no further than
>_Mein Kampf_, in which Hitler *denounced* those who were trying
>to revive the old religion.
Oh yes it can.
Agreed, Hitler and most of the party bosses ridiculed the "mystical" side
of Ariosophy. But this is not the point. The "superior race" ideology of
the NSDAP came directly from Liebenfels, adorned with elements from List
and his epigones. Some Ariosophists even claimed they alone made the Third
reich happen, for example Sebottendorf, but they got their mouth shut for
good. Authoritarian systems do not tolerate such.
Agreed, some Xtian authors try desperately to shift the blame to "Germanic
Paganry", mostly to hide the support the third Reich got from the
churches, see the Reichskonkordat. But there is historical truth, no
matter who reveals it, and if your source is "Mein Kampf" , well...
Once again: Ariosophy was and is no attempt to "revive the old religion".
It is an attempt to enforce a new religion, a religion of tyranny, hatred
and slavery. The claim of Ariosophy to follow ancient Teutonic lore is one
of the most ridiculous historical frauds ever.
Steve McNallen
Heilsan!
Just a note to say that the Asatru Folk Assembly's web page is not
only up, but that it has been updated. We've got new information on
our Viking ship project (keel is now being shaped, prow is carved,
rest of the lumber is ready), as well as both of our news releases
regarding wht may be ancient Caucasian bones unearthed in the Pacific
Northwest. The order form has been reworked, and lots of other things
refined.
It took us a while to get this going, but we finally made it. Our
thanks to the volunteers who made it happen!
You can find our page at http://www.lrbcg.com/heathen/intro.html -
I think you'll find it interesting and informative!
Hail the Aesir and Vanir!
Steve McNallen
Stormerne
In article <32A150...@oro.net>, Steve McNallen <asa...@oro.net>
writes
> Just a note to say that the Asatru Folk Assembly's web page is not
>only up, but that it has been updated.
>I think you'll find it interesting and informative!
Those still linking to the old site at luna.co.uk (still used on many
web page links such as the Germanic Heritage Page) will find an "auto-
forwarder" there which automatically transfers you to lrbcg.com. So old
links and bookmarks should still work with up-to-date browsers.
(Note: The rest of the luna site is closed. This forwarding is by
special arrangement.)
When you get round to it, change your AFA bookmarks and links from your
own home pages to http://www.lrbcg.com/heathen/intro.html
--
Stormerne
email stor...@anglo-saxon.demon.co.uk
snail BM Anglo-Saxon, London WC1N 3XX, UK.
Peter Pan
Steve McNallen <asa...@oro.net> wrote in article <32A150...@oro.net>...
> Heilsan!
>
> Just a note to say that the Asatru Folk Assembly's web page is not
> only up, but that it has been updated. We've got new information on
> our Viking ship project (keel is now being shaped, prow is carved,
> rest of the lumber is ready), as well as both of our news releases
> regarding wht may be ancient Caucasian bones unearthed in the Pacific
> Northwest. The order form has been reworked, and lots of other things
> refined.
>
> It took us a while to get this going, but we finally made it. Our
> thanks to the volunteers who made it happen!
>
> You can find our page at http://www.lrbcg.com/heathen/intro.html -
> I think you'll find it interesting and informative!
>
> Hail the Aesir and Vanir!
>
> Steve McNallen
>
After 10 years, I check into the web and decide to run a search on Asatru.
I see a name I haven't seen since the old AFA (Texas) broke up. (I must
admit, I was miffed, I had payed for a year of Raven when Steve disappeared
- Don't worry about it, I think it was $8.)
Steve how are you doing? Heard things had turned a little tough. I was in
San Antonio from '83 to '85. We had talked on the phone a couple of times.
Hope things are going good. Let me know what is happening with the folk.
Matt
--
Peter Pan
Yoho Yoho a pirate's life for me...