Schedule for Raven Kindred North Events
DSCarron
Heilsa!
My name is David Carron and I am announcing the events for Raven Kindred
North.
Raven Kindred is a group of hard working, sane people who get together to
worship the Norse/Old Icelandic Gods and Goddesses. We are very serious
and spiritual in our beliefs but we laugh and socialize too. We uphold a
moral code called the nine principles of Asatru. And while family is
important, we are flat out against the race thing (sometimes called
Nazi-tru).
RKN gets together monthly to meet, have rituals and chat. At the rituals,
we celibrate either a seasonal event (such as Winter Finding) or a diety
based on some occurance or happening (invoking Tyr for the Supreme Court
going back into hearings).
We hold our meetings and rituals in either Boston or Central Mass., every
3rd Sunday.
Our next meeting is October 19 and we are planning a sleep out for the 2nd
weekend of November (which is right around Veterns Day...).
If things like this interest you email me back dsca...@aol.com.
Wes Thu Hal
David Carron
D B Graphics
Howdy David!
You wrote:
>>I am announcing the events for Raven Kindred North.<<
Not that I am not going to have fun with the xian trolls - but I am glad
to see an Asatru post....
>>Raven Kindred is a group of hard working, sane people who get
together to worship...we laugh and socialize too. We uphold a
moral code called the nine principles of Asatru. And while family
is important, we are flat out against the race thing (sometimes
called Nazi-tru). <<
Come on David... I figured we got over all that junk.
Its good you guys and gals have a good moot gathering - but the old
Universalist vs. Folkish thing is just old hat.
Even Norsman (who loves to flame - and good at it too) dropped it all
and we agreed that in Asatru there are at LEAST two religions or major
sub divisions (kinda like Cath. and Baptist) They can be identified as
Universalist and Folkish for lack of a better term for Universalist
(Folkish is lots better than the old Asatru/Odinist stuff as none could
agree on just what "Odinist" was for sure)
There are levels of what I will call the "bio" part of Asatru but the
old "natzi-tru (TM)" not only does not fit but is just a "throw" word
used to end rational debate.
To Wotan and your health
Doug
DSCarron
>
>Even Norsman (who loves to flame - and good at it too) dropped it all
>and we agreed that in Asatru there are at LEAST two religions or major
>sub divisions (kinda like Cath. and Baptist) They can be identified as
>Universalist and Folkish for lack of a better term for Universalist
>(Folkish is lots better than the old Asatru/Odinist stuff as none could
>agree on just what "Odinist" was for sure)
>
>There are levels of what I will call the "bio" part of Asatru but the
>old "natzi-tru (TM)" not only does not fit but is just a "throw" word
>used to end rational debate.
Heilsa Doug!
I can agree to disagree ;)
I understand the position that the Folkish Asatru has taken. Correct me
if I am wrong but it goes something like this: Heritage is a major deciding
factor on whether one can worship the Norse Gods (at least in Folkish
kindreds). If I have this wrong, than please correct me and I appologize.
Universalist (I guess by default...) believes that anyone can worship the
Norse Gods.
Nazitru is a cutesy pajoritive (sp?) word but I think an apt one. Because
they are worshipers of the Norse Gods who believes that only the Aryan race
(the common definition) can survive via bloodshed. It seems to be more
political then religious, IMHO.
I do not mind the Ancestral postion. I do not agree with it but I see
where they are coming from. Family tradisions are wonderful but I feel you
do the Gods a diservice if you don't share. I would not say dishonor or go
that far but I hope you get my drift.
I suppose by default people would catagorizes me as a Universalist. I
guess I am because I believe if one is called to the Norse Gods then they
come and worship. And I see this as a good thing.
The Nazi postion is just not one I can tolerate. The German state of
World War II fell for many good reasons and I am glad. I am just not into
Facist regiems (I'm strange like that) or genocide for arbitary reasons.
I realize I probaly started a flame war, could not be helped. I wasn't
here when Norseman went down this road.
I do hope people will only add pertinant conversation to this and not just
flame to kill boardum.
As an aside isn't an Odinist, merely one who has dedicated specificly to
Odin? What other spins could be put on this term?
>
>To Wotan and your health
>
>Doug
And to yours...
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
DSCarron wrote:
[in reply to Doug]....
[snippage...]
> Nazitru is a cutesy pajoritive (sp?) word but I think an apt one. Because
> they are worshipers of the Norse Gods who believes that only the Aryan race
> (the common definition) can survive via bloodshed. It seems to be more
> political then religious, IMHO.
***Religion by its very foundation is 'political'. Without the examples
of the Gods, the minds of Men would be rather blank....****
>
> I do not mind the Ancestral postion. I do not agree with it but I see
> where they are coming from. Family tradisions are wonderful but I feel you
> do the Gods a diservice if you don't share. I would not say dishonor or go
> that far but I hope you get my drift.
***'Sharing' is definable by any end-game you apply it to...
IF I share only with my tribal-folk , that is 'sharing'..IF I share
outside the Folk with people from other regions, classes, creeds, and
races, then that can also be interpreted as sharing.
Most Asatruarar only 'share' between individuals or groups which they are
in agreement with, and thus always take 'sides' on doling out kinship and
what constitutes 'friend' and 'foe'...***
>
> I suppose by default people would catagorizes me as a Universalist.
**I don't think you CAN be 'catagorized'....***
I
> guess I am because I believe if one is called to the Norse Gods then they
> come and worship. And I see this as a good thing.
>
> The Nazi postion is just not one I can tolerate. The German state of
> World War II fell for many good reasons and I am glad. I am just not into
> Facist regiems (I'm strange like that) or genocide for arbitary reasons.
***Well, Nazi Germany has nothing to do with Asatru aside from the
Post-War 'interpretations':
a) Non-Christian and Anti-Christian nationalists, socialists, and others
were part of the early Party structure. There are no indications
outside of the 'pagan' swastika/sunwheel logo of the Party flag, and
various Runes ('SS') and such that the German government of the time even
remotely cared about the deeper associations of these to the Old Ways..
b) Alfred Rosenberg, the Party theoretician, was about the only major
player in hybridized metaphysical thought and racial mysticisms.
His methodologies were not Norse or 'Barbarian' Germanic, but instead
were keyed into older Persian Zoroastrianism, interpretations of Christ
and Christianity as being separable from Judaism, and the wider
'Pan-Aryan' mystique which was influenced from the linguistic ties of
European language structures to Old Persian and Sanskrit..He made no
major tenet of faith based on Wotan, Thor, or others from the Nordic
godhead---his references to Nordic, Germanic, and Aryan in synthesis were
based on his assumptions of a direct unbroken link between Germans and
ancient Vedic Indians (Aryans)....
c) German politics and policies before and during the war were enhanced
continuations of World War I and previous wars in which Germany and
German Austria faced the Slavs and Hungarians to the East, and France and
England to the West. The time of WWII and the technology of WWII were
more advanced, but this 'novel' war was another repeat of older
hostilities born of Europe's internal disagreements, intrigues, and
fighting. Wotan was not to be seen then either- just many empires banded
together under 'Crown and Christ'...
d) How can you not support genocide and fascism when you live in the
United States?? Our forefathers nearly killed off the Indians and they
form no credible sociopolitical force in US politics... Our merchants and
estate owners (North and South) inaugurated African slavery... our
country has installed governments to its liking in the Caribbean and
Latin America since the 1800s, and well before the creation of the USSR .
We may not think we support Fascism, but we live in our present economic
system because of it...It is there..***
>
> I realize I probaly started a flame war, could not be helped. I wasn't
> here when Norseman went down this road.
> I do hope people will only add pertinant conversation to this and not just
> flame to kill boardum.
>
> As an aside isn't an Odinist, merely one who has dedicated specificly to
> Odin? What other spins could be put on this term?
>
>***Odinists were originally very philosophical, while Asatruarar went the distance with Kirtles (Robes), mead-horns, rituals, and such....
Odinists concentrated on the idealisms from Europe's exponents of racial,
cultural, nationalistic and hereditary beliefs in 'Eurocentrism'.
Ultimately, Odinism became 'identified' with the 'right wing', and Asatru
came to represent the 'center' because if its more visual representation
of old Scandinavian culture in clothing, speech, and poetics....
Nowadays, even Asatru has a 'nihilistic' fringe which rejects culture
and race, and variations in all directions.........
For reasons of the present disunity and philosophic fall-outs within
Asatru itself, I and my Folk chose against using 'Asatru' as a
descriptive term because of criticisms...The very old and dry 'Yes Iam/No
you aren't Asatru because..' rationales are all dead and useless.
In specific terms, 'Folketru/ Folk-Religion'is the definitive title of
any person or people who are in ideal and customary agreement on the
primacy of their race, community, kinship, lore, speech, and lifestyle.
It means northern Europeans in the style of Gothic-Nordic culture and the
'taboo' Whiteness of being, as opposed to the 'open' sects in Asatru or
the Pagan world who are not interested in this precept...
If Asatruarar or others exist merely to make 'name-calling' a new sport
in the guise of Odin, they are not long for this faith...
Likewise, if others adopt 'Asatru' to ferret out and hunt 'racists' and
essentially abuse White people [anti-White syndrome], then they too can
be a nuisance...
Neither my Folk nor myself can expect to be 'loved' by the whole world,
and we're certainly not ,trustworthy to either Left or Right..........
We must be ourselves because that is how the Gods shaped us...
We can't successfully argue with our Creators...and they hold all the
patents to us!
Haalgjum Heill/
In the Hallows prosper!
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
AErnfolk/ Eagles Reaches
http://members.tripod.com/~aernfolk/index-2.html
D B Graphics
Nik Warrensson wrote
In ans. to this q.
>>>>As an aside isn't an Odinist, merely one who has dedicated
specificly to Odin? What other spins could be put on this term?<<<
>>I am an Odinist by the above definition. What the poster is
getting at is that the term 'Odinist' has become associated with
'White Powerism'. <<
In the US the term Odinism or Odinist CAN have the meaning of dedication
to Wotan as chief God for that individual.
In the UK and Europe Wotanist, Odinist, and others are the same as you
will see the term Asatru - I myself would prefer to use Wotanist rather
than Asatru - and I use it in the context of Asatru not some version of
mudslinging like some here may like....
White Powerism - strange I thought that was in the realm of politics not
religion - if you are refering to Asatru that hold political incorrect
ideas that are part of the religious path then you are at best incorrect
and at worst deliberately slinging mud and atempting to end debate by
using the same old worn out BS "throw words" like "race-a- true"
"natzi-true" and others that were pounded over and over and over - only
to see it all die down when the groups and people who were taking the
heat did not back down.
Lisa & Niely Morgan
Any true Asatruar, and by that I mean, true son or daughter of the Aesir and
Vanir, true worshiper of the values and beliefs of Northern European roots,
would have to be very selective in their education to be racist.
By this I mean that the Gods and Heroes of the Asatru Lore selected their
mates and their blood brothers based on the virtues those people
demonstrated, not on the basis of race. Some Aesir MARRIED giants. (Kind of
like Bubba marrying Aunt Jemima in the Old South.) Brothers were made of
enemies, so long as the INDIVIDUAL'S virtue was sufficient.
More than any other faith, Asatru judges the individual. We are not popular
among the New-Age folk because our yardstick isn't flexible. But ANYONE who
measures up, who lives according to the values and virtues of the Asatru
faith, is welcome in the sight of the Gods, whether their ancestors were
Semitic or African or Latin or Northern European or Asian or whatever.
The Gods are looking for one thing--people who can fight at their side at
Ragnarok. Our Gods and our Norse ancestors were geniuses at adapting the
strengths of every people to their own ends. It is only the small minded
among the so-called faithful who think they would reject ANYONE of stout
warrior heart, true hospitality and faith, courage and industry, from among
their number.
Ljón Bragrman
Lisa Z. Morgan
zack...@pinn.net
Valfather
DSCarron wrote:
[snip]
> I understand the position that the Folkish Asatru has taken. Correct
> me
> if I am wrong but it goes something like this: Heritage is a major
> deciding
> factor on whether one can worship the Norse Gods (at least in Folkish
> kindreds). If I have this wrong, than please correct me and I
> appologize.
>
I have a problem with the above statement. I am not a member of any
'Asatru' organization. I was raised, for the first ten or so years of
my life, as a Unitarian Universalist. I have never had a 'church' since
we stopped going to the UU meetings. I don't really call myself
'Asatru'. I call myself 'Heathen'. This suits me better because it
just seems more organic to me. It means the same thing with a slightly
different connotation. The idea that someone else could tell me what
Gods I should take on as my own is completely foreign to me. I don't
look at religion as joining a club. Sometimes I wish I could be a
member of some "Sunday go to meeting" group like the other religions
have. Such gatherings, to me, do not define the religion of the
attendies though. They merely provide a meeting occasion for folks of
like mind and Soul. For one to be 'Folkish Asatru' or 'Heathen' is not
something that you gain by membership granted by others. It is not
something that one could exclude one from. If you believe in these
Folkish ways you are a Folkish Heathen. You marry and raise your
children as such. You express your ideas in accordance with your
beliefs. In short this is not a membership that you are granted by the
judgments of others. It is a membership that you gain by the Geist
within you.
Freiheit und Friede
D B Graphics
DSCarron wrote:
[snip]
> I understand the position that the Folkish Asatru has taken. Correct
> me
> if I am wrong but it goes something like this: Heritage is a major
> deciding
> factor on whether one can worship the Norse Gods (at least in Folkish
> kindreds). If I have this wrong, than please correct me and I
> appologize.
>
[snip]
Not quite:
In the Folkish Asatru religion every person on the earth was given an
ethnic religion - each ethnic tribe/race/group has a birthright to a
religion for them.
Any person can choose any religion they want but the Folkish position is
that every person is best served by the religion of the folk that went
before them.
So Folkish Asatru are active in helping other ethnic religious paths
bring in the people who were born to it....
All of this is not to say that anyone can choose any path they want -
its just that it is of our religious view that the best religion for
each ethnic group evolves within that group.
No need to appologize with all the disinformation about what the folkish
ideas are it is no wonder.... amid cries of facist and not-so true it is
easy to get caught up in the efforts of some who wish to smear Folkish
Asatru for selfish or organizational reasons.
Nightweb
I think one of the absolute favs in Asatro is that you shoulnd't try to
convert anyone else to your religion, understand and respect their
faith, it grew onto them because of the circumstances their religion
grew up under.
Now, try to find a christian with the same respect...... Ops, was that
disrespectful? =P
/Nightweb - vayda.1atosu.edu
'Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.'
Susan Granquist
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, D B Graphics wrote:
> DSCarron wrote:
>
> >>...Nazitru is a cutesy pajoritive (sp?) word but I think an apt one.
> Because they are worshipers of the Norse Gods who believes that
> only the Aryan race (the common definition) can survive via
> bloodshed. It seems to be more political then religious, IMHO.<<
>
> First natzi or nazi-tru is not an apt description of anything - it is in
> all ways a "throw word" a deliberate troll or flame word. Unlike
> Universalist a descriptive word that in most cases is accurate for many
> in Asatru who feel Asatru is a religion that can or will work for any
> soul who takes it up - a faith as open as christianity - folkish Asatru
> do not think that fits THEIR faith or THEIR folk community. The words
> nazi, facist, and racist are negative and Universalist is not in and of
> itself a "throw word" or negative.
I have to agree that Nazitru is a troll work and totally valueless for
anything other then aggravating other people and has nothing to do with
Asatru beyond that. Universalist is also a known buzz word and used in
exactly the same way, although the use is far less effective since it is
not clear what it refers to, especially with Folkish Asatruar making
statments that are more "universalist" in nature then the supposed
"Univeralists" who are somehow also against Folkish Asatru.
Such statements include ones like, "Furthermore, the gods and goddesses
have continually revealed themselves through the millennia, in one form to
Kennewick Man and in another form to the Germanic tribes. The continuity
remains, even though Kennewick Man would not have known the name Odin and
would not have spoken a Germanic language." which was attributed to Mr.
McNallen...the leading spokesman for Folkish Asatru.
Yet the assertation is also made by Mr. McNallen that Northern Europeans
are more genetically suited to Asatru because, "we're more like our
ancestors then anyone else."
Frankly, I find the logic puzzling, not to mention cntradictory.
> You will find few Folkish Asatru who think "the folk" can only survive
> via bloodshed in fact it is the Folkish groups who as far as I can see
> that have the best "interfaith" relationships with other folkish ethnic
> religions.
I think that it's probably true that they do have the best "relationships"
with others who take a similar "folkish ethnic" approach. There are
those in any ethnic religion who feel that it should be focused on those
of the supposed "race" that the ethnic religion is associated with.
However, ethnicity is substantially different from racial despite the use
of such terms as determining the "ethnicity" of a skeleton of a person who
wouldn't have known either the language or the names of the gods
associated with the *ethnic* and indigenous religion of Asatru.
> It would seem more political than religious to anyone who only looks at
> what the nay-sayers and smear mongers and how they want to make out
> Folkish Asatru to be a bunch of drunken x-kkk or x-shinhead wannabe
> vikings.
Who, exactly, would that be? What nay-sayers and smear mongers? Who has
said that Folkish Asatruar are those things? Isn't it possible that the
perception of that might be coming from statements like this?
> Its funny how the fastist growing aspect of Asatru, Folkish Asatru gets
> the biggest tar brush by the folks who claim they "love everybody".
I would question whether that is the fastest growing "aspect' of Asatru.
Fortunately it's clear that I wouldn't be included in the group who claim
to love everybody. I do think that if the gods call someone to Asatru,
regardless of whatever apparent racial background that they might have
that the real issue is of worship. I have black Asatruar in my godhordh
who have ancestors who are also white. I have people with Native American
heritages as well as Northern European and some of them have a much better
idea of what Asatru is about because they didn't just accept it as a
default, but have taken their experience of the gods and goddesses as
meaningful and examined the *religion* itself as a moral and ethical
spiritual tradition that is worthy of professing.
> >>I do not mind the Ancestral postion. I do not agree with it but I
> see where they are coming from. Family tradisions are wonderful
> but I feel you do the Gods a diservice if you don't share. I would
> not say dishonor or go that far but I hope you get my drift.<<
>
> And I am sure how I can not agree with the Universalist position, and at
> the same time not "mind them" hel I have even flamed some xians and
> other trolls for some who are Universaltist (not that I need an excuse
> to flame a xian troll)
What is the Univeralist position? Who are the Universalists? Assuming
that they resemble Christians the definition becomes even more blurred as
"sharing" family traditions and one's religious convictions seems to be
what is being disagreed with and identified as Universalist. It's not
okay to "share" with those who aren't "of the folk" but it's okay to claim
those who aren't directly related as long as they've been dead several
thousand years, along with all the people before who knew the gods in
their many manifestations?
Personally I don't think that we need to be flaming Christians either.
> As far as dishonor the Gods - well I will do as I will to honor my Gods
> (or the nature-force we call Gods) and take what comes - I just KNOW I
> am right.
I see the gods as being far more then "nature-force." I see them and
experience them as personal and individual, and as Elder kin, actual
ancestors even. What I am at a loss to understand is how these
"nature-forces" (nature being universal) can be "folk" oriented or how
viewing the gods as elder kin would be "universalist.
> As far as to share the Gods - Why should I? I don't want he gods of
> other folk - they have gods that were created by the folk that made
> them.
The gods were *created* by the folk??
> If a person feels he can take the Asatru path - who am I to tell him no
> (far from preventing him from taking that path - something no person can
> do) but I think if he/she is turning his/her back on the tribal,
> folkish, or ethnic Gods then they may be loosing out on the rich
> personal folk path of the past.
What if you were to find out that your grandfather was Native American, or
Black, or Asian? Would that significantly change your own view of the
gods? As you point out, you can't prevent anyone from professing Asatru,
and the determination of whether one is turning his/her back on any
tribal, folkish or ethnic Gods is entirely personal and up to the
individual conscience. If that is the case then there really isn't any
argument as long as no one is telling the Folkish Asatruar that they have
to accept anyone they disagree with into their kindreds, organizations or
groups, is there?
> >>I suppose by default people would catagorizes me as a Universalist.<<
>
> I don't think there is a "default" you have to say what you are and how
> you are. Yes I may even catagorize some - but it is only for the ability
> to carry on a conversation....
I'm Asatru.
> I call myself a Wotanist you can catagorize me as Folkish Asatru and I
> don't think I mind one bit.....
Obviously not since you call yourself that and defend that name.
> >>The Nazi postion is just not one I can tolerate. The German state
> of World War II fell for many good reasons and I am glad. I am just
> not into Facist regiems (I'm strange like that) or genocide for
> arbitary reasons.<<
>
> You wont find any in Folkish Asatru who are "into" arbitary genocide or
> for that any who are "facist" as Folkish Asatru tend to be a bit
> Libertarian in politics.
I have first hand experience of those who do profess that position and who
identify themselves with Folkish Asatru. That is not to say that they are
typical but to say that you won't find *any* is simply not supportable.
Regards,
Susan Granquist
Susan Granquist
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Lisa & Niely Morgan wrote:
> Any true Asatruar, and by that I mean, true son or daughter of the Aesir and
> Vanir, true worshiper of the values and beliefs of Northern European roots,
> would have to be very selective in their education to be racist.
Do you consider yourself to be a judge as to who can be, or is, a true son
or daughter of the Aesir or Vanir?
> By this I mean that the Gods and Heroes of the Asatru Lore selected their
> mates and their blood brothers based on the virtues those people
> demonstrated, not on the basis of race. Some Aesir MARRIED giants. (Kind of
> like Bubba marrying Aunt Jemima in the Old South.) Brothers were made of
> enemies, so long as the INDIVIDUAL'S virtue was sufficient.
They also fought with the giants, and made a clear distinction with them.
Gods also had children with "humans" and some, it would seem, may have
been mortal themselves, which is certainly in keeping with Germanic
thought.
> More than any other faith, Asatru judges the individual. We are not popular
> among the New-Age folk because our yardstick isn't flexible. But ANYONE who
> measures up, who lives according to the values and virtues of the Asatru
> faith, is welcome in the sight of the Gods, whether their ancestors were
> Semitic or African or Latin or Northern European or Asian or whatever.
I find it rather odd to find people in Asatru speaking of the God's wills
and what is or isn't welcome to them...even if I tend towards agreement.
> The Gods are looking for one thing--people who can fight at their side at
> Ragnarok. Our Gods and our Norse ancestors were geniuses at adapting the
> strengths of every people to their own ends. It is only the small minded
> among the so-called faithful who think they would reject ANYONE of stout
> warrior heart, true hospitality and faith, courage and industry, from among
> their number.
I agree that it is the small minded among the so-called faithful who
reject anyone without recalling that the advice in the Havamal suggest
that there is no man so good that he has no evil, nor so evil that he has
no good. It seems more appropriate to me to dissus the specific issues
and concepts in Asatru then contributing to the rhetoric that continues to
create an image of Asatru as being plagued by those who 'aren't worthy."
It just plain sounds too much like the "We're the real Christians and
you're a cult..." type of arguments.
Regards,
Susan Granquist
Collins
D B Graphics wrote:
> In the Folkish Asatru religion every person on the earth was given an
> ethnic religion - each ethnic tribe/race/group has a birthright to a
> religion for them.
>
> Any person can choose any religion they want but the Folkish position is
> that every person is best served by the religion of the folk that went
> before them.
>
> So Folkish Asatru are active in helping other ethnic religious paths
> bring in the people who were born to it....
>
> All of this is not to say that anyone can choose any path they want -
> its just that it is of our religious view that the best religion for
> each ethnic group evolves within that group.
Hello Doug,
Okay, now I'm getting confused. It sounds to me like you're really
saying one of two things:
(1) Folkish Asatruar believe in *all* gods of *every* religion. They
encourage people to (or at least recommend that people) worship only
those gods who are associated with the specific worshiper's ethnicity.
In other words, even though *all* gods of *every* religion exist as part
of Folkish Asatru, you should *only* pay attention to the gods related
to your specific ethnicity. {re-read the above, included post. It
*really* sounds as though this is what Doug is saying}
(2) Folkish Asatruar believe in the Ęsir and Vanir, and no other gods.
Folkish Asatruar do not necessarily *disbelieve* in other gods, but they
don't believe in them either. However, Folkish Asatruar are more than
willing to recommend various gods to all sorts of people, even though
the Folkish Asatruar themselves don't believe in those gods that
they-themselves recommend. In other words, Folkish Asatruar *highly
reccomend* that people worship gods that don't even exist, as far as
they know/care.
Now Doug, if (1) is true, what does it have to do with Asatru? It sounds
to me like some sort of trans-pantheistic religion (like wicca or
something). Why not just call it "Folkish" religion, and leave the
"Asatru" out of it, since it really has nothing at all to do with
"Asatru" in particular.
However, if (2) is true, don't you think that Folkish Asatruar are a bit
hypocritical?
_____ __________________
\ / Mark Collins | |\ /| /|\ |
|___| mcol...@qualcomm.com |. | X | //| \ / .|
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Hnikar
Mark asks whether Folkish Asatruar believe in all gods of all faiths
since we encourage each people to follow its indigenous religious path.
I can speak only for myself since there is no dogmatic structure to
Folkish Asatru, no singular theology. While we are united in the belief
that Folk and Faith are intertwined, Doug and I, for instance, percieve
the gods quite differently- Doug taking a more Jungian, archetypal view
while I believe the gods live.
It is my belief that the peoples of the Earth differ from one another in
their spiritual qualities, in their Folksoul if you will, and perceive
the numinous in unique ways. Because their perception, their spirit,
differs, they have across generations developed their indigenous faith
to express that. Even where alien faiths have been forced upon them, or
adopted, it was merely grafted upon the Folk ways and traditions. That
is not to say that Christianity did not distort and corrupt, clearly it
did, but for each people it became something quite different, something
less alien. The absorption of Indo-European deities into Catholicism as
Saints, or the use of ancient religious sites like the Kaaba among the
Arabs when the Judeo-Christian based faith of Islam was invented, or the
transformation of Christianity into the various Caribbean variants by
those of African descent, all indicate that these people sought to make
the alien faith more true to their spiritual nature.
Not only is a universal faith that grafts itself upon the various people
something that I fail to see the value of, it is also therefore a pipe
dream as destined to fail as the Marxian "withering away of the State"
in favor of Utopian harmony when "exploitative" economic structures are
destroyed, as doomed as the Shakers, as absurd in the long run as any
system which fails to express the truth of human diversity in preference
for a dogma of universalism. A religion must, to borrow a revolutionary
phrase of Vaclav Havel's, live in truth.
I believe that the Aesir and Vanir literally exist as living beings,
though obviously not "living" merely in the sense of man, fauna or
flora. They are no less the same entities that have been honored by
other branches of the Folk- Tyr is Tiw is Tiwaz is Zeus is Jupiter is
Dyaus Pitar is the ancient sky god from the dawn of our people. They
are a numinous form of life and express themselves in the forces of
Nature, in the wind blowing through the trees, through our mythopoetic
souls. We must comprehend them through ourselves, through our own
spiritual nature. We are part of a line which runs through our
ancestors, and our nature- spiritual, intellectual, poetic, and so
forth- is determined by who we are on this very real earthly plane of
existence. We are individuals certainly, but we also are part of a
genetic continuity, and by extension, a spiritual continuity with our
ancestors and hence our indigenous, organic and primal faith.
Other peoples experience the numinous in their own unique ways. Even if
Asatru is grafted upon their natural spiritual inclinations, they will
reshape it into something entirely different from what it is to our
people, as the Haitians transformed Christianity. If Wotan were to
stroll up to a group on the street, look upon them with his outwardly
gazing eye, and speak of his nature, he would be experienced within, on
a spiritual level, differently by those of European descent and those of
any other, regardless of the fact that the event was one. This is what
I say when I encourage people to follow their true way, their ancestral
way. The numinous will be filtered through the ancestral spirit, the
Folksoul, regardless of the existence of any particular pantheon.
Does Wakan Tanka exist? I do not think so. Yet that archetype
expresses the spiritual perspective of a branch of the Mongoloid people,
and has a truth therefore as an expression of the numinous on that
basis. Shall we not respect that?
Does Wotan exist? I am certain he does, but his nature can be perceived
only through the spiritual perspective provided by our spiritual nature.
We are Odin's Folk.
FFF
Hnikar AOR
Hnikar's Folkish Asatru Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5056/index.html (with the links
that matter!)
V
> The Gods have the right to choose whom They wish, and who are mortal
> men to object based on criteria which may only matter to mortal men?
What I am not really sure of is why any of the Folkish should care what
others believe. You are not of the same faith and do not believe in the
same Gods. They may have the same names but they are not the same
beings. Those of us who know the Gods that I know are not mortal. This
whole discussion seems to reveal to me how much the xian paradigm has
been carried over into the beliefs of those who call themselves Asatru.
This whole 'the Gods work in mysterious whys that we men cannot fathom'
is naught but xian groveling. I don't do that!
Godhison
>>If Wotan were to
>>stroll up to a group on the street, look upon them with his outwardly
>>gazing eye, and speak of his nature, he would be experienced within, on
>>a spiritual level, differently by those of European descent and those of
>>any other, regardless of the fact that the event was one.
>
>how non-Europeans would experience Wotan? What gives you the right to
>assume such a thing on the part of people whose race you are not - or
>the right to assume for Wotan how He would be perceived? This really is
>the fundamental problem I have with Folkish Asatru. It makes assumptions
>that put the race before the Gods themselves. Speaking for Gods and
>making assumptions about how They present themselves to unfamiliar folk
>is arrogant - and especially where Wotan is concerned, dangerous. The
>Gods have the right to choose whom They wish, and who are mortal men to
>object based on criteria which may only matter to mortal men?
I am neither a "Folkist or "Universalist" but some are so wrapped up in their
own beliefs that they aren't trying to understand the other at all! And if
one side thinks that the other side "Claims" to "Speak for Wotan", It would
appear to me that THAT side is also claiming that honor.
Let me now speak for myself, as I feel that I understand what I have been
taught by rituals, experiences and readings.
The Eddas state that the Gods perform different deeds in different areas (one
reason for Odin being known for having so many names). This would lead people
to see Odin and the other of the Aesir differently. An African, hunting a
lion may see the Gods similarily to a Viking in battle, but I would think much
differently if he (the African) was making a canoe journey up the congo while
the Viking was sailing a Longboat.
Do I personally believe that an Oriental or African could become an Odinist?
Yes. Do I think that it would be as easy or comfortable for them to
accomplish as to worship the Gods of their own cultural and ancestors? No.
Would I allow them to join my Kindred? Yes. Do I think it proper for someone
to have a Kindred that disallows non-Norse strictly for cultural desendancy
reasons? Yes, if THAT is the real reason. Do I think that Non-Northern
Europeans are inferior? NO!
Also look again at the history of the Norse. They have descendants over a
large area of the world, and it may be a difficult task to omitt many from
the list of possible members if you choose to do so.
Hail Odin!
Tony
She Devil With A Modem
In article <63jclg$3uh$1...@newsd-5.alma.webtv.net>,
Hnikar <Cr...@webtv.net> wrote:
>SDWAM raises issues which have been debated before, so I will briefly
>reply.
>
> It is not arrogance to claim to know the gods that one honors and
>their nature. I find it odd that anyone would hold to a religion which
>they claim would be arrogant to know.
The arrogance I refer to is assuming that Wotan will only choose to
relate to people of particular human tribes or of a certain geographical
origin. There is no proof that Wotan would care about a human being's
race any more than he would concern himself with other human values
such as the price of Black and Decker stock this week, which aspirin is
recommended by 9 out of 10 doctors, or whether wide or narrow ties are
in style. His own wife Frigga had quite an interesting time of it trying
to get Wotan to back the Langobards in battle; She had to trick him.
Now some bunch of Joe Shmoes are going to come up to Him and tell Him
who and who not to choose? Good luck! :)
Asatru is not formless, a mere
>guessing game, a spiritual cypher, it consists of a particular set of
>ideas, codes of honor and way of perceiving the world. It expresses the
>outlook of our Folk. The gods live and we may know them. Why would
>one think otherwise and yet choose the faith?
I do not "choose" this faith based on my "Folk" per se, although the way
that I was raised is in line with the Nine Noble Virtues and I have
lived by them as best I can. As for my patron, She chose ME, not the
other way around. The Gods live, but pretending to know all about them
and their motives - or trying to remake them in our image - is a dangerous
pretension.
>Folkish Asatruar do not say that Wotan may not choose who he wishes. We
>say he has chosen since the dawn of time, and all the universalist
>we-are-all-alike dogma cannot alter his nature. The cult of universal
>sameness has no basis in reality, in truth.
There is no cult of universal sameness that I am aware of. There is only
reality, and the reality of it is that race simply does not matter when
it comes to spirituality, any more than politics does. They are human
values, and spiritually irrelevant. No one "owns" the Nordic Gods, and
people who think they do are kidding themselves and risking the wrath of
those Gods.
>One need not be of another Folk to be able to observe their communities,
>to study their history, to discover by investigation of their indigenous
>faiths what their spiritual outlook is, and by these means to draw some
>conclusions as to their inherent zeitgeist. There is much in this world
>which we are not, and yet more is knowable than only what we are. I am
>not Tibetan, could not be a Tibetan, and yet I am able to learn a good
>deal about Tibetans and to tell you a good deal about their culture,
>their social mores, their religious concepts (another case, by the way,
>of an alien faith adapted to "fit" their spiritual needs).
You may study Tibetans all you wish, but do not pretend to speak as
one. Your own insistence in differentiating yourself from them and others
ends up painting you into a corner there - you have to admit that you
don't have enough in common with them to dare interpret anything for
them, as you insist they are too "different" to relate to the Gods,
or to you. In fact, I wonder why you bother posting this to newsgroups
where you will have to see this faulty logic blasted into smithereens
again and again by people against whom your only defense is, "Well, you
are too different from me to understand it." Why not just stay sequestered
in your insular little world of Nordic Sameness where no one is "different",
everything is orderly, and the only thing people disagree on about Wotan
is how to spell his name! :)
In the meantime, I, not being as concerned with race as I am with spirit,
am under no such self-imposed handicap. And you know what? These Nordic
Gods you claim to "know" don't seem to be standing in my way at all either.
In fact, quite the contrary.
Thus, you may even study Nordic gods all you wish, but I will sit back
and laugh if you pretend to speak for Gods and tell me I should not
practice Asatru. I know better. I have answered a calling from Freya,
endured Her tests over time, and done workings in Her honor and for the
good of many. And She has rewarded me well.
>Of course we know our gods. They live!
My Goddess is very much alive as well. If She's your Goddess too, and
you don't like that, why don't you have a nice chat with Her about it.
I think you might get a surprise, telling the Vanadis who to choose
to work Her will upon the world. Go ahead. Do it. Good luck. :)
--
I see green again, with growing things | Do not CD c
The earth arise from out of the sea; | taunt --------P===\==/
Fell torrents flow, overflies them the eagle, | happy fun /_\__
On hoar highlands, which hunts for fish. | fencer! _\ \
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
She Devil With A Modem wrote:
>
>
> There is no cult of universal sameness that I am aware of.
***You haven't realized then that Profit and Global Economics exists?**
There is only
> reality, and the reality of it is that race simply does not matter when
> it comes to spirituality, any more than politics does.
***Then I suppose this is a U.S. point-of-view? It would never work in
other members of our wide-spread Community of Nations who practice life a
bit more prejudicially...***
... No one "owns" the Nordic Gods, and
> people who think they do are kidding themselves and risking the wrath of
> those Gods.
***It's not so much a matter of 'Owning' as being the Gods' and
Goddesses' Own Creation. Their Work is Good and Worthy---Our Work always
needs to be tested in the ways of Natural Works (Skaepa) and Conduct
(Stjorn) which affects us all..***
>>Having enough Money to 'Buy' does not confer on one the 'Right to Own'<<
Skadi
>Also look again at the history of the Norse. They have descendants over a
> large area of the world, and it may be a difficult task to omitt many from
> the list of possible members if you choose to do so.
>
>
This is where I have a problem with the whole "folkish" thing... the world is
so very intermarried, and inter-bred and yadda yadda yadda, that, who's to say
WHO is 'Norse" enough to worship the Asa Gods. Nobody outside of Scandinavia
is "Purely" Germanic, and certainly most of Americans aren't even close to
being "pure".
So whats the point of saying who can be Asatru, and who can't?
Skadi
~*~*~*Seduce... let loose
the vision and the void*~*~*~
Hnikar
Skadi, I don't think that anyone would require Scandinavian or Germanic
ancestry to the exclusion of any other branch of the Folk. Whether
Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic or whatever, the Folk is one. We arose
from a single spiritual source which is unique among the peoples of the
world and Asatru is a true expression of this spirit.
As for all the "interbreeding" that has happened, one of the most common
phrases you'll hear when you can get an American to speak about his
ancestry (aside from the ludicrous "I'm one-quarter Indian", at which
time I merely point their bright eyes to a mestizo to show what that
would look like) is "I'm Heinz 57, a mutt. I'm German, Swedish, Irish,
Scottish, English, etc." That is, they'll name a number of branches of
one race, not a "mutt" ancestry, but of one Folk. Given, too, that the
characteristics, physical, intellectual and spiritual, of our Folk are
recessive, requiring generations to form but only one to be lost, it is
clear to see that millions of our Folk remain, not mixed as in India or
much of Latin America, but true to the bloodlines of our noble
ancestors. Our pedigree is visible and clear also in our character.
I value this continuity with my people's past. I value the faith and
the creativity of those of the Folk who preceded this sad age of
weakness and surrender. Future generations of our people will look with
contempt at the millions of this age who were willing to surrender the
legacy of the past, will heap contempt on those of this day who were
willing to surrender the birthright inherited from those who came before
and which belongs to all the generations of our people.
Asatru is the spiritual legacy of our ancient ancestors, whose features
we bear, whose spirit we share. I will seek to ensure that it is given
to the future generations of our Folk. We have only just recovered it
from an era of dominance by one universalist faith- I'll not let it be
lost behind yet another, even one which uses the names of the ancestral
gods.
ragnar HairyFeet
Skadi wrote:
> This is where I have a problem with the whole "folkish" thing... the world is
> so very intermarried, and inter-bred and yadda yadda yadda, that, who's to say
> WHO is 'Norse" enough to worship the Asa Gods.
>
I think that what is missed is, "Who thinks they are 'Norse'". Does
someone from Normandy think they are French, or Norse? What you
identifiy with is what you are. The 'Folkish' feel they are Norse or
Germanic, no matter what other 'blood' runs in their body. This would
make them feel they are closer to the Norse Gods. If someone is Celtic
with Viking blood mixed in - which do they feel is their 'Blood'? I for
one will not judge them for which ever of the two they feel is their
'true blood', because that's what they are.
I do agree with the Folkish group on one think. If someone's not apart
of your group don't let them join it. We have to many people that want
to be apart of our religion that don't really believe in it. Some years
back a friend told me about a 'all heathen' group worship. They called
all the Gods to be present, and all the people were to worship all the
Gods. This was when he left - very quickly! The people thought that
everyone should feel at ease with all religions, and that they were
really all the same.
> Nobody outside of Scandinavia is "Purely" Germanic, and certainly most of
> Americans aren't even close to being "pure".
>
Here I think I have to disagree. I'm from Minnesota, and here we have a
lot of 'pure' Germans and Scandinavians. I am "pure" Germanic and have
the family history to back it up. My wife is "pure" Germanic, and dito
for her. I think that we have been told that America is the great
melting pot a little to much. North and South Dakota, Wisconsin, Iowa
are filled with 'pure' Germanic people, so are many other states.
> So whats the point of saying who can be Asatru, and who can't?
>
Here it would be a case of what does that person feel in their heart. If
they feel that the Asa faith is what they believe, and can live by, then
welcome aboard. If not, find something else, and get the Hel out of my
faith. That may sound harsh, but they are doing me, my kindred, and
themself no good by staying.
Ragnar HairyFeet
Valfather
Hnikar wrote:
>>We have only just recovered it
from an era of dominance by one universalist faith- I'll not let it be
lost behind yet another, even one which uses the names of the ancestral
gods.<<
Yea, I'm with you. This is very much how I see things. I would caution
you not to make to many statements that could be easily construed as
indications that we believe we are better than others because of our
race. The slightest hint of such an attitude will bring the more
extreme of our detractors foaming at the mouth to attack. This is how
they have been so successful in carrying out the devastation they have
in the past two decades. When a Teuton says that he or she is proud of
his or her race, the Teutono-phobes will start showing pictures of Jews
in concentration camps. Never you mind that most of the men who gave
their lives to stop the Nazis were themselves of the race that Nazis
claimed to represent. Consider that Eisenhower was clearly in favor or
ethnic self-preservation.
You get the idea.
Keep up the good work. Time is running out. I live less than a quarter
mile from the western most cornerstone of the original ten mile square
area of land that was to become the federal city now called Washington
D.C. Teutons are a small minority here. I have seen this happen all
over the country in the past two decades. In terms of biological time
if this trend continues we will be exterminated in a virtual instant.
If you look that the current laws you will see that they are set up to
accomplish exactly this. If you confront the traitors who write the
laws they will tell you that this is indeed their intention. They will
tell you that this is good for you. If you resist you will be called an
obstacle to progress and a threat to the economic health of the nation.
I answer these accusations thus: Diseases progress, erosion progresses,
deforestation progress, etc.; what's so great about progress? Is all
that matters how big the GDP is?
Skadi
Ragnar:
>I for
>one will not judge them for which ever of the two they feel is their
>'true blood', because that's what they are.
<snip>
I appriciate that, but I think that not all folkish are as open as you are. (at
least, the one's I've met). They think you have to have a pedigree or
something to worship Odhinn.
>Here I think I have to disagree. I'm from Minnesota, and here we have a
>lot of 'pure' Germans and Scandinavians. I am "pure" Germanic and have
>the family history to back it up. My wife is "pure" Germanic, and dito
>for her.
Well, I did say "mostly". :) I did some research on my family last year. All
in all, it looked pretty simple, My maternal grandfather's parents came here
from Germany, My maternal grandmother was born in Germany, and came here as a
child, my paternal grandfather's parents came here from Norway, but his mother
was Swedish, and my paternal grandmother's parents were Swedish.
But upon closer inspection, I learned that my maternal grandma's family lived
in Alsace-Lorraine for quite a while, and one of my ancestors was a general
and confidant of Napoleons (Napoleon even mentions him in his memoirs). But I
digress..the point I'm trying to make is, although we all thought we were
"pure" (I hate using that word, but oh, well) and dammit, I go and find some
French blood in me (he and his brother married French women).
Anyway, I'll restate. Very few people are "pure" anything. 'Cept human. :)
>Here it would be a case of what does that person feel in their heart. If
>they feel that the Asa faith is what they believe, and can live by, then
>welcome aboard. If not, find something else, and get the Hel out of my
>faith. That may sound harsh, but they are doing me, my kindred, and
>themself no good by staying.
I definitely agree with you there, Scandinavian or not.
Hail Odhinn! Hail Thorr! Hail Freyjia!
Hnikar
Quite right, Valfather, that expressions of pride in one's European
ancestry (the same standard does not apply to pride in any other
ancestry, oddly enough) will draw all sorts of misrepresentations from
some. It seems, though, to be somewhat unavoidable. It doesn't take
much to start them to screaming about the boogieman under the bed!
I've lived in the DC area before, so I know what you are talking about
with the state of things there. I've taken friends and family into the
city, and watched their shock. They'd been raised to think of DC as a
beautiful, monumental place celebrating the values of freedom upon which
our Nation was founded, and instead have seen what a cesspool it is.
Hollywood has a similar effect- they imagine glitter and glamour but
find the opposite. This is the age of universalism- so it is no
surprise that they are trying to remake the ancestral faith in that
image- and I find it to be no paradise.
Derrick Parfitt
>Yea, I'm with you. This is very much how I see things. I would caution
>you not to make to many statements that could be easily construed as
>indications that we believe we are better than others because of our
>race. The slightest hint of such an attitude will bring the more
>extreme of our detractors foaming at the mouth to attack. This is how
>they have been so successful in carrying out the devastation they have
>in the past two decades. When a Teuton says that he or she is proud of
>his or her race, the Teutono-phobes will start showing pictures of Jews
>in concentration camps. Never you mind that most of the men who gave
>their lives to stop the Nazis were themselves of the race that Nazis
>claimed to represent. Consider that Eisenhower was clearly in favor or
>ethnic self-preservation.
>
You 100% correct here. The only people who stoped the nazis were of
the same arace. And for all you people out there who say the Russians
were respndsible for beating the Germans in WWII...the Russians were
and are a bigger threat to freedom than the Germans ever were. With
the Tsars and Bosheviks they are truly one freedom-hating people.
They were respndible for more war crimes tahtn the nazis were.
Derrick
___________________
Derrick Parfitt
derr...@erols.com
Godhison
The posting from Derrick reads:(in part, and not to take it out of context)
>And for all you people out there who say the Russians
>were respndsible for beating the Germans in WWII..
Even if they were (which they weren't) Russia came from the Kindom of Russ,
another civilization started by the Vikings acording to James Burke (from
"Connections", "Connections II", and "The Day the Universe Changed", all
programs on PBS)
It was later that they became taken over by the Slavs.
and the author was correct, the Russians were a bigger threat than the Germans.
Skadi
>Please observe that France takes her name form the Franks. There is a
>considerable contribution of Teutonic blood in France. Alsace-Lorraine
>has, for the most of the last millennium, been been part of Germany.
right. But I've never liked the French anyway. :D
harald Steelfoot
Godhison wrote in article <19971106064...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
This presents an interesting tie to the original thread. The Russ were the
Varangian viking from what we now call Sweden (Sweden, Gottland, Oland
&etc). They were responsible for founding (some would say imposing) an
organised society in the cities of Novgorad and Kiev. From those bases they
launched their expeditions to such places as Constantinople, the spice and
silk routes, &etc... While there (Novgorad and Kiev), they did what the
viking did everywhere they traveled : they absorbed and were absorbed by the
peoples who already inhabited the area. (I send this without reference -
they are not available to me at this location. If HairyFeet is reading, I am
sure he can provide them - if he is inclined to do so.) The ancestors of the
viking had been doing the same thing for thousands of years. The Indo-aryans
moved into India (c. 4000 bc), conquering the northern half by force, and
inter-marrying with the Dravidians in order to gain the rest (the cast
system of India - as well as the roots of the Brahmin religion, are remnant
of this period [c.f. Rig Veda]). The viking were not 'taken over' by the
slav. The sons of the first viking in Russia took slavs as wifes. By the
time of Harald Hadrada (sp ?), the rulers in Kiev and Novgorad were fully
integrated into the society and culture they had created - what came to be
known commonly as 'White' Russia (e.g. Cossacks &etc...).
In any event, the Soviets were the threat, not the Russians. The difference
is important, like for instance the difference between German and Nazi. So
the correct statement is that the Soviets were a bigger threat than the
Nazi, which is something a lot of old soldiers thought at the time of the
war (MacArthor and Patton chief among them).
With respect -
Steelfoot
Derrick Parfitt
On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:41:20 -0600, "harald Steelfoot"
<sk...@assetmax.com.removethis> wrote:
(stuff deleted)
>In any event, the Soviets were the threat, not the Russians. The difference
>is important, like for instance the difference between German and Nazi. So
>the correct statement is that the Soviets were a bigger threat than the
>Nazi, which is something a lot of old soldiers thought at the time of the
>war (MacArthor and Patton chief among them).
Yes, you are correct here. There certainly seems to be a totalitarian
streak in some of the Russian people. This manifests itself in the
actions of the Tsars and Bolsheviks.
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
harald Steelfoot wrote:
>
> [in reply to Godhison ]
> In any event, the Soviets were the threat, not the Russians. The difference
> is important, like for instance the difference between German and Nazi. So
> the correct statement is that the Soviets were a bigger threat than the
> Nazi, which is something a lot of old soldiers thought at the time of the
> war (MacArthor and Patton chief among them).
>
> With respect -
>
> Steelfoot
***Not to flog a 'dead horse', but while Stalin early on massacred his
Military's leadership even before 'Barbarossa' and the German invasion,
he proved to be a wiser 'Vozhd' (Russian for 'Fuehrer'/'Leader') by
actually reconditioning his attitude towards the Red Army and restraining
himself from further damages to the military leadership.
His internal shock at Hitler's invasion ['his friend'] forced Stalin to
listen to and accept the the harsh criticism from Marshall Timoshenko
who lambasted Stalin publically in front of his military staff because
his arrogance allowed the Germans to organize the invasion- something
even Soviet Intelligence knew about months beforehand thru their superior
espionage network in and around Germany...(purposefully ignored by Stalin
who only trusted Hitler above all other European leaders..)
If Hitler had better Generals with military vigor enough to call him to
account for interference in wartime planning [botched Dunkerk/ Battle of
Britain/ did not seize Moscow as an objective/ declared war on Roosevelt
and the U.S.] and not play the 'charade' game of believing 'Doublethink'
[...Oh, we're losing terribly- that means we have a fighting chance to
win!!..] then Germany and not the USSR would certainly have won.
Stalin wasted the Russians, and the people of the USSR but he 'won' the
war which his General Staff [STAVKA] actually prosecuted under a combined
Communist inspired general staff under Zhukov.
Hitler wasted the Germans and all possible fortunes and lost everything
to everyone, including millions of Germans inside Russia, Ukraine, and
the Balkans who lived there for over 700 years as artisans...
The Germans lost because they simply didn't get their act together and
bowed to Hitler on every major issue.
If Rommel or Keitl, Jodl or von Runstadt had the temerity to have hit
Hitler on the face and tell him of his bad bungling of military resources
as early as 1942, even then history might have been different....
But whereas Stalin learned not to execute his generals late in the game,
Hitler never listened to his generals early on and would have dismissed
or continued to shoot any who disagreed with his 'will'...
But that's history....
Heilsen...
Paal-Eirik
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
Booga wrote:
>
>[reply to ragnar HairyFeet]
> >
>
> Hmm...
>
> I´m really new to this newsgroup thing so please tell me if I break any
> unwritten rules, but when I read a little of this discussion I feel have
> got to tell my side of the story...
>
> When I read this what comes to mind is the fact that the "blood" seems
> to be so important, no matter if you call yourselves Folk or
> Universalist. I couldn´t care less if your grandma is from Israel,
> Björkö or New York, you are welcome to celebrate blots with me and my
> "cookmates"** (funny word "kok-kamrater"** becomes in english...) even if you are born in Australia with all-aboriginal background.
**Actually, this 'Cook-mate' is not a strange word in older forms of
Saxon, Norse, or German... the English word 'Mate' associated with
'Partner' and 'Pal' stems from the commonness of people enjoying food
together- rather as in Eddic strophes about 'bread and kin'...
"Mate" issues from 'Gemata' [ge+Mata] and 'Mata' has to do with the Old
English 'Maw' or 'Gut'-- so a 'Mate' is one who usually dines with you as
so many kin did in the collective days-of-old at a Blot, feast, or
Thing.**
>
> But I do see a problem for everyone who is not living (or have lived a
> long time) in Scandinavia in understanding the nature, enviroment and
> the cultural parts of our ways, because most of our way is so tightly
> connected to our climate, weather, water and so on.
>
> As I said earlier I don´t say non-scandinavians are not welcome because
> to me you are, but I do not understand why you don´t dig where you
> stand...
>
> Micke Eriksson
Heilsen Gemata! **
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
AErnfolk/Eagles Reaches
Booga
Derrick Parfitt wrote:
>
> On 8 Nov 1997 06:11:13 GMT, sk...@aol.com (Skadi) wrote:
>
> >>When I read this what comes to mind is the fact that the "blood" seems
> >>to be so important, no matter if you call yourselves Folk or
> >>Universalist. I couldn´t care less if your grandma is from Israel,
> >>Björkö or New York
> >
> > I agree with you. I think too many people take up too much time checking the
> > racial backgrounds of everyone who wants to follow this path. As long as your
> > heart, mind, and soul are into it, welcome aboard. :)
>
> Their mind might be into it, maybe their heart, but not their soul.
>
> Blood really does matter.Get real!
Blood has nothing to do with it at all...
The bizarre blood discussions are stuff that I think belongs in Germany
around the 1930s or to people in "the Wittness of Jehova"...
Blood has nothing to do with your way of life, your enviroment and
surroundings does...
/micke
Derrick Parfitt
I am real.
It is interesting that you talk about my thinking as set in 1930's
Germany, when my ancestors fought against Nazi Germany and you
rancestors supported it (and son't give me any of this neutral Sweden
crap).
Heimdall
Booga wrote:
> Get real!
> Blood has nothing to do with it at all...
> The bizarre blood discussions are stuff that I think belongs in Germany
> around the 1930s or to people in "the Wittness of Jehova"...
> Blood has nothing to do with your way of life, your enviroment and
> surroundings does...
>
> /micke
Oh come now, The idea that traits and physioligy, that are passed down through the
generations, are not a large part of our lives is ludicrous. While environment plays
a large part in forming attitudes it 'is' only a part. The old throw back to Nazi
Germany is not really germane since many of the things they used for their aims had
some validity but were used and twisted for a sinister purpose. This is often the
case, unfortunately. Just as some use Nazi Germany to denigrate everyone they
disagree with.
Heimdall
AOR/AFA
Heimdall
She Devil With A Modem wrote:
> Blood goes through the heart. Soul lives in the mind. I will not
> accept when some mortal man dictates to me about the alignment or
> disposition of my soul. No one is in a better place to know my
> own soul but myself and the Gods. I won't accept what some fundy
> Christian tries to shove down my throat about where my soul is
> at, why should I then accept what some Folkish or racist tells
> me about it?
>
> --
> I see green again, with growing things | Do not CD c
> The earth arise from out of the sea; | taunt --------P===\==/
> Fell torrents flow, overflies them the eagle, | happy fun /_\__
> On hoar highlands, which hunts for fish. | fencer! _\ \
I haven't seen any evidence of anyone trying to shove anything down your throat. Not
even the Fundie/Folkish/Racist (Whoever they are) people. Expressing opinions
doesn't equate to forcing them on others and it's obvious one can't be made to accept
them.
Heimdall
AFA/AOR
Hnikar
Well said, Heimdall. Any time someone expresses their Folkish faith,
someone bleats that "You're forcing it down my throat!" or "You're
telling us how to live!" I've been called "Asapope" for saying that I
disagree with the universalists, though only the universalists have
issued ultimatums and the like in an awkward attempt to enforce their
beliefs (on the Kennewick Man issue).
Let me clearly state that no Folkish Asatruar or Odinist is attempting
to make the universalists practice our beliefs. Far from it. We see
them another faith entirely, a completely different community, one
which seeks to distort the ancestral faith into a mirror image of the
parochial popular herd-think of this day and not at all what we would
consider Asatru. They should go about their ways without fear of
Folkish efforts to force the Faith down their throats. We simply aren't
talking about the same thing! Enough of the paranoia.
Skadi
>When I read this what comes to mind is the fact that the "blood" seems
>to be so important, no matter if you call yourselves Folk or
>Universalist. I couldn´t care less if your grandma is from Israel,
>Björkö or New York
Booga-
I agree with you. I think too many people take up too much time checking the
racial backgrounds of everyone who wants to follow this path. As long as your
heart, mind, and soul are into it, welcome aboard. :)
Derrick Parfitt
On 8 Nov 1997 06:11:13 GMT, sk...@aol.com (Skadi) wrote:
>>When I read this what comes to mind is the fact that the "blood" seems
>>to be so important, no matter if you call yourselves Folk or
>>Universalist. I couldn´t care less if your grandma is from Israel,
>>Björkö or New York
>
>Booga-
> I agree with you. I think too many people take up too much time checking the
> racial backgrounds of everyone who wants to follow this path. As long as your
> heart, mind, and soul are into it, welcome aboard. :)
Their mind might be into it, maybe their heart, but not their soul.
She Devil With A Modem
Booga
Heimdall wrote:
>
> Booga wrote:
>
> > Get real!
> > Blood has nothing to do with it at all...
> > The bizarre blood discussions are stuff that I think belongs in Germany
> > around the 1930s or to people in "the Wittness of Jehova"...
> > Blood has nothing to do with your way of life, your enviroment and
> > surroundings does...
> >
> > /micke
>
> Oh come now, The idea that traits and physioligy, that are passed down through the
> generations, are not a large part of our lives is ludicrous. While environment plays
> a large part in forming attitudes it 'is' only a part.
I can agree that if I have a very large Father and a very large Mother I
will probably be very large too and I can agree that if I have a very
bright Father and a very bright Mother I will probably be very bright
too...
But when it comes to forming attitudes enviroment is what counts...
The best examples are people who in early age have been adopted by
parents here and now when they have grown up they are in many ways "more
scandinavian" than many scandinavians "by blood".
/Micke
Skadi
Derrick P. said:
>Their mind might be into it, maybe their heart, but not their soul.
>
>Blood really does matter.
How come?
Hnikar
I'm raising a horn to our people, Odin's Folk, as I chuckle still about
the "insular and stagnant bloodlines" comment! Here's to a few hundred
million "insular" people (more than the world's population in its
entirety in previous ages, with an unprecedented mobility!), who've
"stagnated" as indisputably the most inventive, creative and exploratory
Folk (not like the monocultural "paradises" of modern India and Haiti!).
Valfather
>>Well tell me, Father of All, why don't you call yourself "Father of
Some"? :) <<
Valfather is the father of the battle-slain. I guess you don't know a
lot about the Aesir. The reason is not that my great grandfather died
with his youngest son in WW-II, but that has something to do with it.
Heimdall
Hnikar wrote:
We have done reasonably well with a such a stagnant gene pool haven't we
;). You would think there were 3 of the folk in existence given some of the
comments these days.
Fare with the Gods
Heimdall
AOR/AFA
Valfather
Skadi wrote:
>
> >When I read this what comes to mind is the fact that the "blood"
> seems
> >to be so important, no matter if you call yourselves Folk or
> >Universalist. I couldn´t care less if your grandma is from Israel,
> >Björkö or New York
>
> Booga-
> I agree with you. I think too many people take up too much time
> checking the
> racial backgrounds of everyone who wants to follow this path. As
> long as your
> heart, mind, and soul are into it, welcome aboard. :)
>
>
> Skadi
>
> ~*~*~*Seduce... let loose
> the vision and the void*~*~*~
Your attitudes surely seem to reflect the attitudes of the Swedish
government. I noticed that Sweden's population consists of 12%
immigrants. 15% of people who become Swedes per year are immigrants.
What this means is that if these statistics don't change it will be
meaningless to think of Sweden as being anything more than a
geographical entity named for an extinct Folk.
Considering that even more drastic statistics are at work in the US,
White population. We can expect to kiss our respective tails good bye
for all intents and purposes. I am 12th generation American and of
basically the same race as my first American ancestors. It is explicitly
against my religious beliefs to have my folk exterminated. I have
already seen the National Capital region be completely overwhelmed by
immigration. I have every intention of gathering others of like faith
and banding together with them to establish the security of ourselves
and our posterity.
She Devil With A Modem
In article <3465122C...@geocities.com>,
Heimdall <heim...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>I haven't seen any evidence of anyone trying to shove anything down your
throat. Not
>even the Fundie/Folkish/Racist (Whoever they are) people.
Expressing opinions
>doesn't equate to forcing them on others and it's obvious one can't be
made to accept
>them.
Opinions should not be presented as "facts" about the religion of
Asatru. The original poster did not indicate the difference.
Hnikar
"Insular and stagnant gene pool", SDWAM? If that's an indication of
your understanding of genetics, no wonder you believe that ancestry has
no importance.
I, for one, don't think that Folkish Asatru is the only way to worship
the gods. I simply think it is the way that is true to the spirit of
the ancestral faith rather than to the pop religions which merely are
variations of the universalism which predominates in the insular
thoughts of this time and place. Given the spirit of universalist forms
of Asatru, one could substitute nearly any gods- there is little
difference at the core between it and any of the other "neo-pagan"
religions which arose from the 60's counterculture.
If it's what you want, go for it- my point was simply that your claims
that people were shoving something down your throat have no basis in
reality. The intention of the Folkish Asatruar is to offer an authentic
alternative to the falsehood of universality, of rootlessness. None has
ever told you to do anything, contrary to your wild claims.
In any age or place, the majority of people do not think so much as
follow popular thought- hence in Egypt people tend to become Moslem, in
Poland they tend to become Catholic, and so forth. 17th century Salem's
popular thought included a belief that there were servants of Satan who
needed to be killed. 1950's popular thought included the belief that
liberals were willing servants of the Soviet threat. It is not the
validity of an idea which leads most people to accept or reject it, but
the mentality of the herd. In the U.S. and much of Europe there has
been a paradigm shift, most noticable in the 60's, away from religious
expressions of universalism to secular, consumerist versions of it, but
at heart it is the same force in terms of monocultural tendencies. Most
"neo-pagan" faiths, including universalist Asatru, follow popular
thought in this regard. Folkish Asatru, on the other hand, is the next
paradigm- rooted firmly in the ancestral spirit, and spreading its limbs
toward a new dawn.
She Devil With A Modem
In article <643djg$dev$1...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Hnikar <Cr...@webtv.net> wrote:
>Well said, Heimdall. Any time someone expresses their Folkish faith,
>someone bleats that "You're forcing it down my throat!" or "You're
>telling us how to live!" I've been called "Asapope" for saying that I
>disagree with the universalists, though only the universalists have
>issued ultimatums and the like in an awkward attempt to enforce their
>beliefs (on the Kennewick Man issue).
>Let me clearly state that no Folkish Asatruar or Odinist is attempting
>to make the universalists practice our beliefs. Far from it. We see
>them another faith entirely, a completely different community, one
>which seeks to distort the ancestral faith into a mirror image of the
>parochial popular herd-think of this day and not at all what we would
>consider Asatru. They should go about their ways without fear of
>Folkish efforts to force the Faith down their throats. We simply aren't
>talking about the same thing! Enough of the paranoia.
Let me clearly state that I do not speak for anyone other than myself,
since I do not belong to a "herd-think" group and would not presume
to speak for others who have working minds and can make their own
decisions. The objection I have to Folkish Asatru is that it attempts
to pass itself off as the only way to worship Asatru. Since the Nordic
peoples in the days of the accepted worship of these Gods were very
migratory, I further hold that trying to limit worship to a particular
region is a distortion of the existing and living faith as it has
evolved in the present day. We are not talking about the same thing,
to be sure, and people who read this group who feel that the Nordic
Gods have called them and who are discouraged by this rhetoric should
not allow the bleating of "someone" to keep them from a worship
that they have been called to. Real Asatru has nothing to do with r
race or an obsession with origin, bloodline, or genetics. The
relationship between Deity and Self is one that no other mortal can
control or profane, unless you let them. Some seek to do so out of
a paranoia that people of "impure" descent, whatever that means,
are going to destroy their insular and stagnant gene pool. Enough of
the paranoia, yes indeed.
Loke.@po.ia.dk
> I, for one, don't think that Folkish Asatru is the only way to worship
> the gods. I simply think it is the way that is true to the spirit of
> the ancestral faith rather than to the pop religions which merely are
> variations of the universalism
>
reminds me of the argument the nazis throw around, that if you not are
nazi, then are you comminst.
Spare me for the bullshit...
Venlig hilsen,
Loke.
Godhison
Hnikar:
This is not an attack, but, at least in part a disagreement. You wrote:
> 1950's popular thought included the belief that
>liberals were willing servants of the Soviet threat.
They aren't? You had better check the testemonies of the former Soviet KGB
Generals again and see who they were giving money to!
> Most "neo-pagan" faiths, including universalist Asatru,
Try telling that to the Nordics who are constantly attacked by the Wiccans.
The Nordics are NOT included into the modern, liberal,
"born-too-late-to-be-a-hippie-so-I'll-be-a-Wiccan" mentalility of the New Aged
"Pagan". That is why most of us refer to ourselves as Heathen.
>Folkish Asatru, on the other hand, is the next paradigm- rooted >firmly in the
ancestral spirit, and spreading its limbs toward a new >dawn.
This I totally agree with.
Hail Odin!
Tony
Shaksway
I am 12th generation American and of
>basically the same race as my first American ancestors. It is explicitly
>against my religious beliefs to have my folk exterminated.
Even if the US became of mixed race how would that mean our folk is
exterminated? We live on thru our children no matter waht skin color they
have. To reject one's children is to break the line of ancestors.
I have
>already seen the National Capital region be completely overwhelmed by
>immigration. I have every intention of gathering others of like faith
>and banding together with them to establish the security of ourselves
>and our posterity.
>
So Asatru is Identity !
Valfather
Loke.@po.ia.dk wrote:
> It seems hitler didn't live for nothing, sadly...
>
> From a so called 'pureblooded' Dane.
> Loke.
Look folks, I got the Nazi prize! :-) You only get this one when you
opponent runs out of anything productive or intelligent to say. This is
usually a reward for adhering to your principles in the face of
continual condemnation. It's not all that hard to get, just refuse to
be assimilated into the soulless plutocracy's mass of servants. You
really need to be Nordic to win this honor. A member any other race can
express a concern for the survival of his Folk and the same person who
call the Nordic a Nazi will tear his clothes and gnash his teeth,
mourning the great tragedy. In most such cases an effort will be made
to identify some root cause perpetrated by the 'racist White Man.'
Again I thank you for demonstrating that you have nothing productive or
intelligent to say. I am not like the Dane of today. My eponimic
ancestor left Denmark over a thousand years ago. I may look a lot like
a Dane, but unlike the Danes of today my fathers did not bend over and
ask Hitler to please just be gentle. We kicked his butt.
Wolfgang Goethe
On 9 Nov 1997 23:50:07 GMT, reds...@liii.com (She Devil With A Modem)
wrote:
>In article <3465122C...@geocities.com>,
>Heimdall <heim...@geocities.com> wrote:
>>
>>I haven't seen any evidence of anyone trying to shove anything down your
> throat. Not
>>even the Fundie/Folkish/Racist (Whoever they are) people.
> Expressing opinions
>>doesn't equate to forcing them on others and it's obvious one can't be
> made to accept
>>them.
>
>Opinions should not be presented as "facts" about the religion of
>Asatru. The original poster did not indicate the difference.
Neither did you!
Faith Folk and Family!
Wulfgaest AOR
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gaeth a Wyrd, swa Heo scel
-Beowulf
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
D B Graphics
>From the HAVAMAL
The man who stands at a strange threshold,
Should be cautious before he cross it,
Glance this way and that:
Who knows beforehand what foes may sit
Awaiting him in the hall?
__________
The tactful guest will take his leave Early,
not linger long:
He starts to stink who outstays his welcome
In a hall that is not his own.
_________
A man should be loyal through life to friends,
And return gift for gift,
Laugh when they laugh,
but with lies repay
A false foe who lies.
If you find a friend you fully trust
And wish for his good-will,
exchange thoughts,
exchange gifts,
Go often to his house.
____________
No man should trust a maiden's words,
Nor what a woman speaks:
Spun on a wheel were women's hearts,
In their breasts was implanted caprice,
To love a woman whose ways are false
Is like sledding over slippery ice
With unshod horses out of control,
Badly trained two-year-olds,
Or drifting rudderless on a rough sea,
Or catching a reindeer with a crippled hand
On a thawing hillside: think not to do it.
Naked I may speak now for I know both:
Men are treacherous too
Fairest we speak when falsest we think:
many a maid is deceived.
__________
If you know a friend you can fully trust,
Go often to his house
Grass and brambles grow quickly
Upon the untrodden track.
With a good man it is good to talk,
Make him your fast friend:
But waste no words on a witless oaf,
Nor sit with a senseless ape.
Cherish those near you, never be
The first to break with a friend:
Care eats him who can no longer
Open his heart to another.
An evil man, if you make him your friend,
Will give you evil for good:
A good man, if you make him your friend"
Will praise you in every place,
Affection is mutual when men can open
All their heart to each other:
He whose words are always fair
Is untrue and not to be trusted.
Bandy no speech with a bad man:
Often the better is beaten
In a word fight by the worse.
D B Graphics
Valfather posted:
Loke.@po.ia.dk wrote:
> It seems hitler didn't live for nothing, sadly...
>
> From a so called 'pureblooded' Dane.
> Loke.
>>Look folks, I got the Nazi prize! :-)<<
All of us in the Folkish movement have had this on us at least once -
welcome to the club.
>>You only get this one when you opponent runs out of anything productive or
intelligent to say.<<
All too true.
>>This is usually a reward for adhering to your principles in the face of
continual condemnation. It's not all that hard to get, just refuse to
be assimilated into the soulless plutocracy's mass of servants. You
really need to be Nordic to win this honor. A member any other race can
express a concern for the survival of his Folk and the same person who
call the Nordic a Nazi will tear his clothes and gnash his teeth,
mourning the great tragedy.<<
The curse of a PC world where fact and reason are second to "newthink"
and fashion.
>>I am not like the Dane of today. My eponimic ancestor left Denmark over a
thousand years ago. I may look a lot like a Dane, but unlike the Danes
of today
my fathers did not bend over and ask Hitler to please just be gentle.
We kicked
his butt.<<
Thats funny.
To Wotan and your health
Doug
D B Graphics
sk...@aol.com (Skadi) Wrote
>>This is where I have a problem with the whole "folkish" thing... the world is
so very intermarried, and inter-bred and yadda yadda yadda, that, who's
to say
WHO is 'Norse" enough to worship the Asa Gods. Nobody outside of
Scandinavia
is "Purely" Germanic, and certainly most of Americans aren't even close
to
being "pure".<<
That statement is so wrong as to be funny.
There are pockets of populations in the US that are pure of race as to
be the same as when they left Europe.
>>So whats the point of saying who can be Asatru, and who can't?<<
How many times will we have to say this?
Folkish Asatru not only have no way of controling who claims Asatru but
have no desire to do that.
Folkish Asatru DO NOT say who can be Asatru, and who can't - we now note
that there is a religion that uses the name Asatru that is not the same
as the religion of Folkish Asatru (one of the original reasons I used
the term Wotanism - but I am not one God specific)
Give it a break!
ArialHakon
ah, pardon me for putting my $.02, but as someone fairly new to the faith
perhaps my research is lacking - where does it say that Odin cares about the
ancestry of the slain warriors he has in Vahalla, other than to show they may
have inherited their skills?
I can understand the arguement that a person is more apt to worship Gods that
his/her ancestors worshiped, but I think it is a matter of values passed in
the upbringing rather than actual genetics.
Maybe I just have difficulty understanding what ancestry has to do with whether
Odin speaks to your heart.
Freya's blessings,
Arial
Valfather
Booga wrote:
> Cause I thought that the only people in the US who aren´t immigrants
> or
> spring from such were the Native Americans...
>
> But I guess I was wrong...
Yes indeed, that is ridiculous statement that you made. It has no basis
in fact and is nothing more than an emotional argument used to divert
attention from the real issues and to direct those who accept it away
from thinking entirely by welling up in them the emotions of irrational
self-righteous indignation. It is pseudo-rationality.
> Or is it like this that only the ones not looking "ayrian" are
> considered immigrants and you "white" are considered to be conquerors?
This has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am providing for the
preservation and advancement of my Folk on this land which I call
Vinland. I have no intention to use violence, deceit, or criminal
behavior to succeed. I add the qualification that if I am attacked I
will be ready, willing, and able to fight against my attacker. How my
Folk got here is not of concern to me. That we are here and will
survive in security and prosperity here is all that matters. I will
effect this. This will require changes in the way that we think and
behave. For example, current economic theory says that there are two
ways that government policy influences economic outcomes. It changes
the taxation and spending of the government through fiscal policy, or it
affects the money supply through the Federal Reserve. When we read the
Immigration act of 1990, and subsequent acts of such betrayal, we
realize that this is nothing but economic policy. It cannot be
discussed as an economic policy in the current political environment.
This basically means that the opportunity cost of these drastic measures
cannot be evaluated in a cost - benefit analysis. I am changing this
paradigm. I am also eradicating the paradigm that has dominated the
thinking of the holders of political power since the early sixties.
That is the guilt-ridden, self-destructive passion that all the world's
problems are the result of successful White men. The 'logical'
conclusion of which is that we should embrace the eradication of our
Folk from the planet in order to make the world a better place. I
intend to survive. I will survive. You will adjust to this fact,
willingly or otherwise.
The effects of paradigms on mass behavior are clearly a dominant factor
that controls the outcome of the collective decision making process.
Truth, Reality, and Reckoning have been my guiding lights throughout
life. I am very familiar with these forces. I will continue to muster
them in the accomplishment of my stated objectives. Truth is like a
fire that will burn through the deadwood of lies that once dominated
this land. It only takes one spark to land in an advantageous place. I
will continue to throw sparks until there is critical amount of
cleansing fire of truth to rage through this decaying forest of perfidy
and turn these lies into ashes.
Hail to my Folk, and to those who are our friends!
Hnikar
The question of which people arrived first on this continent (North
America) is a matter of increasing debate, given the remains found at
Kennewick, Spirit Cave, Lovelock Cave, Grimes Point, and Pyramid Lake,
and most definitely the American Indians came here from Asia, but
regardless, Booga, it seems hardly to be the salient point. Populations
move across the world and have throughout history- for instance there is
no consensus that the modern occupants of Scandinavia originated there.
Certainly, the proto-Indo European religion from which Viking Age Asatru
arose did not spring from there.
What matters is whether one loves one's people and one's culture, or
whether one believes that these do not matter. I find the latter a very
odd way of being. I will do what I may to ensure that the bright-eyed
children of our Folk, and our native and creative spirit, survives into
the distant future- that our recessive but valuable genetic traits do
not follow the path to oblivion of our kinsmen who once lived on the
Indian subcontinent. In the slums of Calcutta, in the helpless poverty
of Bangladesh, there is nothing to recall the glory that once was.
Each people should take pride in itself, and seek to achieve what
creativity and inventiveness they may, to honor their ancestors and be
true to themelves. It is a good thing to see the Africans in this
country donning traditional African fabrics and learning Swahili, and
the creation of Kwanzaa. I nod with approval at the American Indians
who go to the sweat lodges and honor their ancient warriors like Red
Cloud. So, too, will we follow our ways, honor those whose blood flows
in us and whose Odinic spirit we share, and take joy in the smiles of
our future generations.
Who among the American Indians would honor ancestors who did not
struggle for their future and their culture, who took no pride in who
they were, who had no interest in the well-being of their people? Who
among the Asians and the Africans? Who in future generations of our
Folk will honor those of this day who did not value them?
Loke.@po.ia.dk
> Considering that even more drastic statistics are at work in the US,
> White population. We can expect to kiss our respective tails good bye
> basically the same race as my first American ancestors. It is explicitly
> already seen the National Capital region be completely overwhelmed by
> immigration. I have every intention of gathering others of like faith
> and banding together with them to establish the security of ourselves
> and our posterity.
>
D B Graphics
Hnikar wrote
>>I'm raising a horn to our people, Odin's Folk, as I chuckle still
about the "insular and stagnant bloodlines" comment! Here's to a
few hundred million "insular" people (more than the world's
population in its entirety in previous ages, with an unprecedented
mobility!), who've "stagnated" as indisputably the most inventive,
creative and exploratory Folk (not like the monocultural
"paradises" of modern India and Haiti!).<<
Cherish those near you, never be
The first to break with a friend:
Care eats him who can no longer
Open his heart to another.
I tip my horn with you friend!
To the Folk!
To Wotan and your health
Doug
BTW
Hnikar's Folkish Asatru Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5056/index.html
This is a great page.....
D B Graphics
Loke.@po.ia.dk wrote:
>>All this Folkish vs universalism, yer exuse me for being harsh,
but it reminds me of the argument the nazis throw around, that if
you not are nazi, then are you comminst.<<
Or the "PC" throw around natzi-tru(tm) or facist - the old if you are
not one of us you are (fil in the blank equal to - "trash")
>>Spare me for the bullshit...<<
Yes please.
Hnikar
No, Loke, the clash of universalist perspective with Folkish is not
simply an exchange of insulting names. I has to do with a completely
different religious perspective, and this has been explored in depth.
And an exploration of the issues involved in our practices, even the
difference between our faiths, is appropriate in the newsgroup.
FFF
Hnikar AOR
Hnikar's Folkish Asatru Page:
Hnikar
Heilsa Tony,
Thanks for the reply. You are right that I should have been clearer in
my post. My point was that, whatever the net effect of 50's liberalism
(which I agree served to further many of the same goals as the Soviet
state in terms of social issues), most liberals were quite sincere in
their beliefs, without an intent to serve the Stalinist or
post-Stalinist state. Part of the mythology which was held as fact in
the 50's denied the sincerity of many of these folks' beliefs- there was
a simplification that liberalism="Comsymp", to use the phrase then
current.
The point I was making was that every age has it's folly of popular
thought. One thing I'm striken by in my studies of history is the
unbelievable things that were accepted as truth, the sheer oddity of
things that the masses held as important. The entire debate among
Constantinian Christians on the issue of the nature of Christ, as
exemplified by the council at Nicea and the position of Arius, and the
violent fury of the contrasting tendencies, is one such example. I have
also always found interesting heretical notions, not necessarily
religious but any which oppose the herd-thought of a particular age.
From these ultimately arise the paradigm of ages to follow.
Perhaps this arises from my own teenage years when my Mother- who is a
great friend- made a comment I have never forgotten. She said, of
something I was talking about, "Most people don't believe that. Can
they all be wrong, and you be right?" I thought- I have been given a
mind of my own. Should it matter what most people think- should I
surrender my mind in favor of the group opinion? And I explored and
spoke with people and discovered that most had not given much thought to
their opinions, did not have a command of all the matters, precedents,
contrary opinions and so forth that are needed to form an intelligent
opinion. In short, they are unable to intelligently defend or support
their opinions except on a surface level. The incessant recourse to
"Nazi!" as a response on this list to anyone who wishes to promote the
welfare of European people is a prime example.
I recall a sister-in-law of mine once saying, as if it were a great
profoundity, that "all great empires last only 200 years" and so the
U.S. was due to wane. I asked why she thought that number would cause
such a thing. She couldn't answer. So I asked for some examples. She
mentioned Great Britain and Rome- very easily refuted. At that point
she became adamant, saying she'd read it somewhere and _believed_ it to
be true. So often this is what I encounter when I seek to understand
the reason behind such popular myths of the day as "all races are the
same" or "people of European descent have so much more to be sorry for"
or "truth is subjective".
There are kernals of truth in any popular myth. The myth of the 50's
that all those with liberal opinions were the willing servants of Soviet
policies was in itself false. But there were plenty of underground
Communists who used front organizations, and plenty of liberals who did
serve the Soviets (The Secret World of American Communism by Klehr,
Haynes and Firsov is illuminating, as is the pro-Communist autobiography
of Peggy Dennis, wife of Eugene Dennis).
Perhaps you are right that I could have found a better example, though.
I thank you for your thought-provoking post.
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
D B Graphics wrote:
>
> Hnikar wrote
>
> >>I'm raising a horn to our people, Odin's Folk, as I chuckle still
> about the "insular and stagnant bloodlines" comment! Here's to a
> few hundred million "insular" people (more than the world's
> population in its entirety in previous ages, with an unprecedented
> mobility!), who've "stagnated" as indisputably the most inventive,
> creative and exploratory Folk (not like the monocultural
> "paradises" of modern India and Haiti!).<<
>
> Cherish those near you, never be
> The first to break with a friend:
> Care eats him who can no longer
> Open his heart to another.
>
> I tip my horn with you friend!
>
> To the Folk!
>
>
> Doug
>
Raising a Middle Finger after supping the Horn is also a defiant right
when steered against the Nidd-Irgar (Taunters)....
Paal-Eirik
Booga
Valfather wrote:
>
> Skadi wrote:
> >
> > >When I read this what comes to mind is the fact that the "blood"
> > seems
> > >to be so important, no matter if you call yourselves Folk or
> > >Universalist. I couldn´t care less if your grandma is from Israel,
> > >Björkö or New York
> >
> > Booga-
> > I agree with you. I think too many people take up too much time
> > checking the
> > racial backgrounds of everyone who wants to follow this path. As
> > long as your
> > heart, mind, and soul are into it, welcome aboard. :)
> >
> > Hail Odhinn! Hail Thorr! Hail Freyjia!
> >
> > Skadi
> >
> > ~*~*~*Seduce... let loose
> > the vision and the void*~*~*~
>
> Your attitudes surely seem to reflect the attitudes of the Swedish
> government. I noticed that Sweden's population consists of 12%
> immigrants. 15% of people who become Swedes per year are immigrants.
> What this means is that if these statistics don't change it will be
> meaningless to think of Sweden as being anything more than a
> geographical entity named for an extinct Folk.
>
> White population. We can expect to kiss our respective tails good bye
> for all intents and purposes. I am 12th generation American and of
> basically the same race as my first American ancestors. It is explicitly
> against my religious beliefs to have my folk exterminated. I have
> already seen the National Capital region be completely overwhelmed by
> immigration. I have every intention of gathering others of like faith
> and banding together with them to establish the security of ourselves
> and our posterity.
>
>
> --
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/valfather
Cause I thought that the only people in the US who aren´t immigrants or
spring from such were the Native Americans...
But I guess I was wrong...
Or is it like this that only the ones not looking "ayrian" are
considered immigrants and you "white" are considered to be conquerors?
/Micke
Hnikar
I joined the Libertarian Party in 1980 during the Ed Clark campaign that
garnered nearly a million votes (I was living in the Caribbean at the
time so my contributions were limited to financial support, though I
later took my place at the booth at State fairs and the like). I have
retained a political stance which holds liberty at the core. I left the
LP only because of their veneration of the free market as godlike and
infallible, whereas I think some constraints on monopoly and
environmental damage need to be in place, but on most social issues I
remain in agreement with their perspective. Nonetheless, because I
value my people and our culture, I too have been called "Nazi!" on this
newsgroup by folks unable to come up with valid points. I think I
should also be in the running for the award you folks mentioned- or I'll
bring my libertarian cross-burning buddies your way!!!
It's funny, yes, but also sad that people hold to positions they can
only defend by yelling "Nazi!"
Heimdall
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Booga wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Funny that you say this...
>
> Cause I thought that the only people in the US who aren´t immigrants or
> spring from such were the Native Americans...
>
> But I guess I was wrong...
>
> Or is it like this that only the ones not looking "ayrian" are
> considered immigrants and you "white" are considered to be conquerors?
>
> /Micke
Actually you could very wrong considering recent developments in
archaeological finds but even if you aren't I fail to see the point. I guess
I would question why it concerns anyone if the folkish side look to their
ancestors as being an integral part in their being and faith. The only reason
I can think of is that it forms some of threat to a set system that would be
upset. For a racial group to have pride in it's accomplishments and it's
history is natural. This holds true for whites as well, whether it fits a
stifling PC attitude or not.
Fare with the Gods
Heimdall
AOR/AFA
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<HTML>
<P>Booga wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR> <A HREF="http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/valfather"></A>
<P>Funny that you say this...
<P>Cause I thought that the only people in the US who aren´t immigrants
or
<BR>spring from such were the Native Americans...
<P>But I guess I was wrong...
<P>Or is it like this that only the ones not looking "ayrian" are
<BR>considered immigrants and you "white" are considered to be conquerors?
<P> /Micke</BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually you could very wrong considering recent developments in
archaeological finds but even if you aren't I fail to see the point.
I guess I would question why it concerns anyone if the folkish side look
to their ancestors as being an integral part in their being and faith.
The only reason I can think of is that it forms some of threat to a set
system that would be upset. For a racial group to have pride in it's
accomplishments and it's history is natural. This holds true for
whites as well, whether it fits a stifling PC attitude or not.
<BR>
<P>Fare with the Gods
<BR>
<P>Heimdall
<BR>AOR/AFA</HTML>
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Wulfgaest
Perhaps in your research you have not yet discovered that the
veneration of ancestors is a very important if not a central theme of
the religion. Unlike the saviour based systems of monotheistic
religion, this one is an organic and tribal religion that developed
amongst a certain people group. It is no different to our culture than
Shinto is to Japan or the AmerIndian religions to those tribes or
Macumba to the Africans or Judaism is to Jews. How many people of this
age were really brought up "Asatru"? I think not too many. There is
more to ancestory than genetics....
Faith Folk and Family
Derrick Parfitt
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:55:51 -0500, Valfather
<valf...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Loke.@po.ia.dk wrote:
>
>> It seems hitler didn't live for nothing, sadly...
>>
>> From a so called 'pureblooded' Dane.
>> Loke.
>
>Look folks, I got the Nazi prize! :-)
Did not! I was equated with Nazi a couple of days ago,so I win! :)
> You only get this one when you
>opponent runs out of anything productive or intelligent to say. This is
>usually a reward for adhering to your principles in the face of
>continual condemnation. It's not all that hard to get, just refuse to
>be assimilated into the soulless plutocracy's mass of servants. You
>really need to be Nordic to win this honor. A member any other race can
>express a concern for the survival of his Folk and the same person who
>call the Nordic a Nazi will tear his clothes and gnash his teeth,
>mourning the great tragedy. In most such cases an effort will be made
>to identify some root cause perpetrated by the 'racist White Man.'
>
How true that is.
>Again I thank you for demonstrating that you have nothing productive or
>intelligent to say. I am not like the Dane of today. My eponimic
>ancestor left Denmark over a thousand years ago. I may look a lot like
>a Dane, but unlike the Danes of today my fathers did not bend over and
>ask Hitler to please just be gentle. We kicked his butt.
>
Hmmmm, that sounds familiar :)
Derrick
___________________
Derrick Parfitt
derr...@erols.com
J.H.Peck
Wulfgaest wrote:
[snip]
> veneration of ancestors is a very important if not a central theme of
> the religion. Unlike the saviour based systems of monotheistic
> religion, this one is an organic and tribal religion that developed
> amongst a certain people group. It is no different to our culture than
> Shinto is to Japan or the AmerIndian religions to those tribes or
> Macumba to the Africans or Judaism is to Jews. How many people of this
> age were really brought up "Asatru"? I think not too many. There is
> more to ancestory than genetics....
>
> Faith Folk and Family
>
> Wulfgaest AOR
Heilsa,
Okay , Folkists , answer me this one : I have an aquaintence that
I work with who is quite interested in Asatru , His name is Jesus
(pronuonced Hay-zeus) Larsen , and he's half Hispanic and half Swedish .
Looks more hispanic than anything else . Should he feel the call , would
you turn him away from your Kindred ? Or send him off to a Toltec
revival ?
I am very curious as to how people deal with the appearance of
difference as apposed to what one's ancestry might actually be.
Lyulf
--
anj...@gte.net|We never pay anyone's Dane-geld,
http://home1.gte.net/anjpeck/index.htm |No matter how trifling the cost,
|for the end of that game is oppression and shame,
|And the nation that plays it is lost.<R.KIPLING>
NOTICE:Unsolicited commercial email sent to this address will be
subject to a $500 processing fee. Sending mail to this address,
manually or automatically, implies consent to these terms.
ragnar HairyFeet
Skadi wrote:
> I appriciate that, but I think that not all folkish are as open as you are. (at
> least, the one's I've met). They think you have to have a pedigree or
> something to worship Odhinn.
>
Well, I'm not really a folkish. I can understand what both sides
believe. Both sides have truth in what they say, and I like to point
that out. Truth is truth, no matter which side speaks it. I never want
someone 'flamed' (this is not aimed at you, but only a statement of my
ideals) because they are on the 'otherside', but speaking the truth. No,
I'm not 'middle of the road', because I have very defined views.
One problem this NG has at times, is that people come into a thread and
don't read the ideas or thoughts of the poster, they just react. The Uni
does not see that he/she can't change the beliefs of the Fundy, and visa
versa, and a flame war starts. Reading what each side has to say, and
puting personal views aside, till you understand the poster. Now to tell
the truth, there have been posters that have been a half bubble off
center, but even they have had some good points - some, not many. I
think I've been around here for a little over a year now, and I've
learned a lot - from everyone.
> Well, I did say "mostly". :)
>
You did, didn't you. ;)
> I did some research on my family last year. All
> in all, it looked pretty simple, My maternal grandfather's parents came here
> from Germany, My maternal grandmother was born in Germany, and came here as a
> child, my paternal grandfather's parents came here from Norway, but his mother
> was Swedish, and my paternal grandmother's parents were Swedish.
> But upon closer inspection, I learned that my maternal grandma's family lived
> in Alsace-Lorraine for quite a while, and one of my ancestors was a general
> and confidant of Napoleons (Napoleon even mentions him in his memoirs).
>
Wow! Now that's having a fame in the family.
> But I digress..the point I'm trying to make is, although we all thought we were
> "pure" (I hate using that word, but oh, well) and dammit, I go and find some
> French blood in me (he and his brother married French women).
>
Well, atleast it was a long ways back. You can always sweep it under a
rug.
> Anyway, I'll restate. Very few people are "pure" anything. 'Cept human. :)
>
I think your very right on that. We, humans, are what we feel we are. If
someone wants to 'feel' they are a 'pure' something, well, I wont burst
their bubble - unless they are using it to hurt someone else. I think
the need to feel apart of something is very important to all of us.
Everyone of us wants to segrigate ourself from something. And that may
be as big a need as being apart of something. Sometimes we call it a
night out with the boys/girls, and it may be nothing more than the urge
to serrigate from what we don't want. Some may just want to be with
their 'blood'. We sometimes pick at the Fundys for wanting to be with
their own, but do we pick at the Sons of Norway or the Swedish Institute
or the Danish Brotherhood? Just a thought at how we should look at them.
> >Here it would be a case of what does that person feel in their heart. If
> >they feel that the Asa faith is what they believe, and can live by, then
> >welcome aboard. If not, find something else, and get the Hel out of my
> >faith. That may sound harsh, but they are doing me, my kindred, and
> >themself no good by staying.
>
> I definitely agree with you there, Scandinavian or not.
>
That's what I ment.
> ~*~*~*Seduce... let loose
> the vision and the void*~*~*~
Interesting tag. Would you care to explain it?
The Gods be with you Skadi
Ragnar HairyFeet
ragnar HairyFeet
Booga wrote:
> Hmm...
>
> I´m really new to this newsgroup thing so please tell me if I break any
> unwritten rules, but when I read a little of this discussion I feel have
> got to tell my side of the story...
>
Well, first welcome aboard. Second, please do. The more thoughts we have
the better.
> When I read this what comes to mind is the fact that the "blood" seems
> to be so important, no matter if you call yourselves Folk or
> Universalist. I couldn´t care less if your grandma is from Israel,
> Björkö or New York, you are welcome to celebrate blots with me and my
> "cookmates" (funny word "kok-kamrater" becomes in english...) even if
> you are born in Australia with all-aboriginal background.
>
If what has drawn this comment comes from what I wrote, please remember
it was in context to what blood was with what group. I said if a person
"feels a part of a blood group, then that's what they are". Just that,
and that 'Viking blood' is found all over the world. Some is "pure"
Scandinavian blood and some is mixed with non-Scandinavian blood. That
is only a fact, and has nothing to do with the religion. What you state
above, about 'you are welcome to celebrate blots with me and my
"cookmates" (that word is used in Australia, by the way)' I would hope
that means people that really belive in the Asa faith. The point of what
I wrote was that, IF they believe, and can live by the standards of the
faith, they are welcome. If they don't belive, no mater what 'blood'
runs through them, they can go somewhere else. I don't need a X-tian
playing at my religion, and trying to mess it up. I also don't need a
Buddist doing the same thing. Or a Wicca. Or a Jew. Or anyone else, not
beliveing in the Asa faith.
> But I do see a problem for everyone who is not living (or have lived a
> long time) in Scandinavia in understanding the nature, enviroment and
> the cultural parts of our ways, because most of our way is so tightly
> connected to our climate, weather, water and so on.
>
Come to Minnesota (USA) once, and I'll show you Scandinavia in America.
We still have people here that have to learn to speak English before
they can go to school. I have several friends that are around 30, that
were born here, that probably speak English poorer than a first year
English student does in your county. They live by the customs of the
Scandinavian county their parents, grandparents, or great grandparents
came from. When I went to Norway the first time I felt that I had 'Come
home'. I stayed with friends, in their home, and did as they did - every
day. There was nothing that felt 'strange' or 'different' to me. I just
felt that I was 'home'.
> As I said earlier I don´t say non-scandinavians are not welcome because
> to me you are, but I do not understand why you don´t dig where you
> stand...
>
I know where I stand, I stand in the USA. I also have a home in Norway,
with my family and my friends. My religion comes from the same place as
my family did. Americans are not easy to understand, and boy do I know
that. Most of us are not from here, we came from Europe. Sure we may
have lived here several generations, but we all know we came from
someplace else. We live by the customs and ideals that our familys
brought with them from Europe. In many familys those customs are melded
from several countries. That is our heritage, we're stuck with it, and
there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Ragnar HairyFeet
Hnikar
Lyulf,
The word "Hispanic" isn't very descriptive of ancestry, anymore than
"American" or "Mexican" would be. There are "Hispanics" whose ancestry
is largely African, "Hispanics" whose ancestry is Asian by way of the
"Native Americans", and others who are of European descent (I realize
even these geographically based terms may lack precision, but I intend
them to refer to the genetic groups associated with the terms).
Generally, the term "Hispanic" is used to describe mestizos of mostly
Native American ancestry, and if that is what you mean, I would
encourage the man you mention- if he came to me - to seek either his own
people's path or a universalist group. European genetic traits are
recessive, whether physical, intellectual or spiritual. I would not
think of a mestizo as being of the Folk- his European ancestors threw
away that legacy for all time. I must clearly state that I would not
seek to keep him from pursuing any spiritual path, I simply would choose
not to worship with him. For me, Asatru can only be a source of life
for the Folk, not oblivion. It is a faith which celebrates the spirit
of the Folk, not one which accepts its demise - whether a demise like
the Europeans in Haiti a couple of hundred years ago, a bloody physical
demise, or like the Indo-European Folk who once ruled the Indus, a slow
disappearance of the valuable and recessive genetic traits into the
masses of another people.
I speak for no one but myself.
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
J.H.Peck wrote:
>
> Wulfgaest wrote:
> [snip]
> > Perhaps in your research you have not yet discovered that the
> > veneration of ancestors is a very important if not a central theme of
> > the religion. Unlike the saviour based systems of monotheistic
> > religion, this one is an organic and tribal religion that developed
> > amongst a certain people group. It is no different to our culture than
> > Shinto is to Japan or the AmerIndian religions to those tribes or
> > Macumba to the Africans or Judaism is to Jews. How many people of this
> > age were really brought up "Asatru"? I think not too many. There is
> > more to ancestory than genetics....
> >
> > Faith Folk and Family
> >
> > Wulfgaest AOR
>
> Heilsa,
> Okay , Folkists , answer me this one : I have an aquaintence that
> I work with who is quite interested in Asatru , His name is Jesus
> (pronuonced Hay-zeus) Larsen , and he's half Hispanic and half Swedish .
> Looks more hispanic than anything else . Should he feel the call , would
> you turn him away from your Kindred ? Or send him off to a Toltec
> revival ?
> I am very curious as to how people deal with the appearance of
> difference as apposed to what one's ancestry might actually be.
>
> Lyulf
Lyulf:
My Folk would not advocate or accept a 'Meztizo'/ Mixtec which
constitutes the majority of Mexican society's Euro-'Indian' culture base.
The direct inclusion of such an element would not be acceptable.
If 'Hispanic' is used to represent Mexican and Central American 'Indians'
such as Mayans, Aztecs ('noveau Aztlanos') , Tarahuamaras, and others of
the and NOT European Spanish ('Peninsulare or Creole') then it is
improper.
I have met two Cubans in my life who would be completely acceptable in
their European lineage (yes) and one was 'half' Swedish with Scandinavian
build and red hair- the other was 'half' Ukrainian and deeply interested
in his very Slavonic roots....
You don't have to be 'rejected' by being 'Hispanic' with its European
Latin, Keltic and Gothic lines-- but going into 'Indian' cultures outside
of the European in the style of the Aztec and Maya and Others is
definitely outside this Folk's perception of itself...
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
AErnfolk/ Eagles Reaches
Wulfgaest
On 11 Nov 1997 11:09:38 GMT, "J.H.Peck" <anj...@gte.net> wrote:
> Heilsa,
> Okay , Folkists , answer me this one : I have an aquaintence that
>I work with who is quite interested in Asatru , His name is Jesus
>(pronuonced Hay-zeus) Larsen , and he's half Hispanic and half Swedish .
>Looks more hispanic than anything else . Should he feel the call , would
>you turn him away from your Kindred ? Or send him off to a Toltec
>revival ?
> I am very curious as to how people deal with the appearance of
>difference as apposed to what one's ancestry might actually be.
>
> Lyulf
Hmmm, interesting one. From your tone I am really wondering though if
you are really interested in what I have to say or if you are just
trying to corner me in some stupid argument. Sorry, I dont mean to by
cynical, but in this forum, one who has won the "Nazi prize" as many
times as I should be carefull as to what he or she thinks someone
elses intent may be.
If you are really interested in hearing what I think, than I will tell
you.
I too have a friend who is very interested in Asatru/Odinism. He is
Half Mexican and half Danish. His name is Carlos Rigney. But when one
says "Mexican" this can be misleading. What do you mean? My friend is
of the sort of Mexican that is pale white and decended from the Goths
of Spain, he has the geneologic information to back this up. Would I
allow him into my Kindred, If I had one, Yes, but I have also known
him for many years. As far as whether or not admission into my kindred
would constitute the only activity in Asatru that any one could have,
well I am not that egotistical as to think that it would be. If some
one who were black or jewish or chinese wanted to be asatru, that is
not something that i can stop is it? If they came to me about being in
my kindred, well if it were mine, I would more than likely direct that
person to a kindred involved with a national organisation that was
lower, numericly on the "J scale". One other thing that people could
solve this problem with, and I say this with toungue in cheek, is to
use the same scale that the federal government uses for the
distribution of Scholarships. This is how they determine who is and is
not European. Their percentage is about 16% is what makes a person
"not-white" or minority. But as i said, only tounge in cheek.
regards
Wulfgaest
ragnar HairyFeet
Skadi wrote:
> right. But I've never liked the French anyway. :D
>
Never met a Frenchman that I liked, and I've met a few.
Daffynition: Oxymoron - the word french and culture in the same sentence
when not seperated by the word without.
Ragnar HairyFeet
*Oh boy, am I in deep Dodo now* Ragnar - after this post
Ulftonn
>Lyulf,
>The word "Hispanic" isn't very descriptive of ancestry, anymore than
>"American" or "Mexican" would be. There are "Hispanics" whose ancestry
>is largely African, "Hispanics" whose ancestry is Asian by way of the
>"Native Americans", and others who are of European descent (I realize
>even these geographically based terms may lack precision, but I intend
>them to refer to the genetic groups associated with the terms).
>Generally, the term "Hispanic" is used to describe mestizos of mostly
>Native American ancestry, and if that is what you mean, I would
>encourage the man you mention- if he came to me - to seek either his own
>people's path or a universalist group. European genetic traits are
>recessive, whether physical, intellectual or spiritual.
GENETIC RECESSIVE SPIRITUAL TRAITS LOL LOL LOL
ok got that out of my system some how I have a hard time seeing european
intellectual traits as differnt from any other intellectual trait you can get
some inherent some intellectual traits from you patrants yes but not a
cultural intellect. And your spirit is your own and neither recessive or not.
Judge each man by his acts and deeds is what I have been told so often is the
stance of the Asatru.
Heimdall
Ulftonn wrote:
> GENETIC RECESSIVE SPIRITUAL TRAITS LOL LOL LOL
> ok got that out of my system some how I have a hard time seeing european
> intellectual traits as differnt from any other intellectual trait you can get
> some inherent some intellectual traits from you patrants yes but not a
> cultural intellect. And your spirit is your own and neither recessive or not.
> Judge each man by his acts and deeds is what I have been told so often is the
> stance of the Asatru.
>
>
Obviously there can be some dispute over the idea of culteral traits being passed
down through the generations but I think you make too light of it. You may also be
under the mistaken impression that Asatru is Christianity and that we view all
outside our faith as a needed convert or an enemy. While Folkish Asatru does view
ancestry as important it does not judge other groups as inferior or bad. We
certainly don't feel that other groups are incapable of great deeds and don't need
to judge those outside our own faith.
Susan Granquist
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Hnikar wrote:
> No, Loke, the clash of universalist perspective with Folkish is not
> simply an exchange of insulting names. I has to do with a completely
> different religious perspective, and this has been explored in depth.
> And an exploration of the issues involved in our practices, even the
> difference between our faiths, is appropriate in the newsgroup.
How do you define a Universalist? Isn't it someone who believes that
there is an "all-pervading divine energy or essence, which is generally
hidden from us..and which is beyond our understanding?" Or that believe
that "this underlying divinity expresses itself" or that perhaps the gods
and goddesses have revealed themselves through the millennia in one
form...or another? Or that we're all related because the Creator
(whatever he's/she's known as) created everyone?
To me this sounds a bit like Identity Christianity.. I know one of those
guys who soberly explained that Odin was really "Jewish" (or rather one of
the lost ten tribes of Israel). Maybe on his way through Troy...from the
Garden..
:)
regards,
Susan Granquist
http://www.eskimo.com/~valkyrie
Susan Granquist
On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Hnikar wrote:
> Skadi, I don't think that anyone would require Scandinavian or Germanic
> ancestry to the exclusion of any other branch of the Folk. Whether
> Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic or whatever, the Folk is one. We arose
> from a single spiritual source which is unique among the peoples of the
> world and Asatru is a true expression of this spirit.
Which single spiritual source? Doesn't a statement like, "the Folk is
one" strike you as being somewhat Universalist? To some extent I agree
with this, but I find the ever expanding defintions of Folk and the gods
from those who identify with Folkish Asatru confusing.
What happened to Indigenous, or ethnic? While I respect the Celtic
religionists, and the gods may be "similar" or related..they're not the
"same" in expressions of faith..or in worship..or even philosophy.
Regards,
Susan Granquist
http://www.eskimo.com/~valkyrie
Susan Granquist
On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Hnikar wrote:
> Scottish, English, etc." That is, they'll name a number of branches of
> one race, not a "mutt" ancestry, but of one Folk. Given, too, that the
> characteristics, physical, intellectual and spiritual, of our Folk are
> recessive, requiring generations to form but only one to be lost, it is
> clear to see that millions of our Folk remain, not mixed as in India or
> much of Latin America, but true to the bloodlines of our noble
> ancestors. Our pedigree is visible and clear also in our character.
Ah..so the Folk is one race..and "visible" in that it is recognizable by
appearance, and not necessarily "pedigree?" Despite the generations of
"mixing" it wouldn't seem to have killed off the character or the
"pedigree" so far.. So..if you are interested in pedigrees and
bloodlines..are they required for profession or acceptance into Folkish
Asatru?
> I value this continuity with my people's past. I value the faith and
> the creativity of those of the Folk who preceded this sad age of
> weakness and surrender. Future generations of our people will look with
> contempt at the millions of this age who were willing to surrender the
> legacy of the past, will heap contempt on those of this day who were
> willing to surrender the birthright inherited from those who came before
> and which belongs to all the generations of our people.
I've asked before..but do you know who our ancestors were? Literally? Do
you know..or are you going by "appearance" and assuming that it's the
appearance that expresses that "spiritual" inheritance? What legacy do we
hold from the past? Isn't it also the names and the stories, the
poetries, the laws inspired by a unique world view...which was an
expression of the world the gods themselves were seen as inhabiting?
> Asatru is the spiritual legacy of our ancient ancestors, whose features
> we bear, whose spirit we share. I will seek to ensure that it is given
> to the future generations of our Folk. We have only just recovered it
> from an era of dominance by one universalist faith- I'll not let it be
> lost behind yet another, even one which uses the names of the ancestral
> gods.
Oh well..as long as they have a few caucasoid features, who cares? Right?
They'll still be considered ancestral by the future Folkish probably...but
it's nice to have your assurances that this new universlism isn't going to
dominate.
She Devil With A Modem
In article <645nab$gq7$1...@newsd-161.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Hnikar <Cr...@webtv.net> wrote:
>I'm raising a horn to our people, Odin's Folk, as I chuckle still about
>the "insular and stagnant bloodlines" comment! Here's to a few hundred
>million "insular" people (more than the world's population in its
>entirety in previous ages, with an unprecedented mobility!), who've
>"stagnated" as indisputably the most inventive, creative and exploratory
>Folk (not like the monocultural "paradises" of modern India and Haiti!).
If you really had studied your lore, your ancestry, and your history,
you would know that the term "Indo-European" keeps popping up for a
reason. The "Indo" part of that does actually refer to India, which
is (and has been) about as monocultural as the current United States.
--
I see green again, with growing things | Do not CD c
The earth arise from out of the sea; | taunt --------P===\==/
Fell torrents flow, overflies them the eagle, | happy fun /_\__
On hoar highlands, which hunts for fish. | fencer! _\ \
She Devil With A Modem
In article <645lsj$go4$1...@newsd-161.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Hnikar <Cr...@webtv.net> wrote:
>"Insular and stagnant gene pool", SDWAM? If that's an indication of
>your understanding of genetics, no wonder you believe that ancestry has
>no importance.
I understand genetics perfectly well enough to understand that it has
no place in my religion. Ancestry is important, but I will not
sacrifice certain other value system choices to maintain "racial
purity" (if there is even any such thing). It really comes down to
this simple concept - love is thicker than DNA. If I love or care
about someone - whether that someone is my lover, my friend, or my
GOD - I am not going to love based on genetics, labels, appearance,
height, weight, astrological sign, shoe size, fashion deafness,
economic situation, suntan level, or any of the bullshit that
distracts from the SPIRIT of the living entity.
>I, for one, don't think that Folkish Asatru is the only way to worship
>the gods. I simply think it is the way that is true to the spirit of
>the ancestral faith rather than to the pop religions which merely are
>variations of the universalism which predominates in the insular
>thoughts of this time and place.
The last part of this sentence does not describe my faith at all, in
fact it really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If that is your
view of my faith, you are certainly confused. Nor do I think it is
really worth my while to bother trying to set you straight other
than by reading the "love is thicker than DNA" paragraph again.
> Given the spirit of universalist forms
>of Asatru, one could substitute nearly any gods- there is little
>difference at the core between it and any of the other "neo-pagan"
>religions which arose from the 60's counterculture.
I do not know where this "universalist" label came from, I don't
feel it is really appropriate, but then again, I am not the one who
really needs to depend on labels or putting people into little
boxes and categories. The phrase "one could substitute any gods"
is not correct at all. Spirit calls to Spirit when a Deity chooses
or calls a person - and believe me, it is not the other way around.
I think we both agree that it should not be that way. Pantheons
of Gods should indeed not be treated like modes of fashion or
channels on TV.
For many years I practiced a generic form of wicca based on the
Gardnerian. I waited very patiently for whichever aspect of the
Lady was going to manifest in me. As I am half Irish, I thought it
might be Brigid, or Cerridwen, or perhaps the Morrigan. But it was
only when Freya was invoked for the first time during a ritual I
participated in, that I found the Goddess whom had called me.
Suddenly a lot of aspects of my life made a great deal of sense -
my love of hawks and eagles, my fondness for wielding any kind of
blade, my interest in herbal medicine, my joining the Air Force
and being sent to Germany, my owning two cats, my "beserker"
streak - AND my belief that love is thicker than DNA. ;-7
>If it's what you want, go for it- my point was simply that your claims
>that people were shoving something down your throat have no basis in
>reality. The intention of the Folkish Asatruar is to offer an authentic
>alternative to the falsehood of universality, of rootlessness. None has
>ever told you to do anything, contrary to your wild claims.
You are daring to presume that my faith is a falsehood. You have no
way to prove these claims, which you would be happy to have taken
as "gospel" (pun intended) by anyone who didn't know better who
might read this group. I simply won't allow that and will present
my view. You can have yours, but do not presume that mine is a
falsehood unless you can prove it. Since you can't, quit while
you're ahead. When you say it's a falsehood, that is your OPINION,
and you will either have to state so; or otherwise prove it if
you believe it to be a fact.
>It is not the
>validity of an idea which leads most people to accept or reject it, but
>the mentality of the herd.
Or, shall we say....."the mentality of the folk".
>at heart it is the same force in terms of monocultural tendencies. Most
>"neo-pagan" faiths, including universalist Asatru, follow popular
>thought in this regard.
Whatever you think "universalist Asatru" is, I definitely do not
practice that, for any of the reasons you mention. I don't think
your label or depiction is accurate. It implies a shallowness that
simply isn't there as far as I or others I know are concerned. The
faith is real, the blots are sincere, the lore is studied and the
Gods have shown their appreciation despite any mortal squabbles.
Were this faith as easily "changed" as a channel on television,
do you really think you'd be getting such adamant protest out of
me? :)
> Folkish Asatru, on the other hand, is the next
>paradigm- rooted firmly in the ancestral spirit, and spreading its limbs
>toward a new dawn.
Well you'd better not spread your limbs into the realm of telling
me what to do with mine, or you'll find them rather shorter by half.
Is that Asatru enough for ya? Don't you just wish I'd give up and
find Buddha or something like that? Sorry 'bout that, but I *AM*
a FreyasGydhia, not a new age "white lites/fluffy bunny" hippie,
and when some race-obsessed mortal tries to tell me my calling from
Her is a falsehood, I defy any of you to prove it.
Ulftonn
>ArialHakon wrote:
>
>There is a very complex answer to your thoughtful question. I haven't
>the time to answer with that one. A simple answer will have to do for
>now. The traditions tell us that our ancestors understood the role of
>heritage in the expression of physical characteristics. They also tell
>us that fair hair, bright brow, a good figure, light skin, wise mind,
>and a pretty face were the features of a princeses. To this day the
>whole world looks to these features (save the wise mind) as marks of
>great attractiveness in a woman.
not quite the whole world there are culures where this is not true maybe Europe
but not the whole world>
There is no doubt in my Soul that our
>forebearers wished this to live forever. A voice within me screams:
>Don't let that die!
>
>I grew up as a Seventies hippie. I believed that Peace and Love were
>the answers to the world's problems. I always believed that we could
>achieve that ideal without the elimination of our Folk. Things around
>me began to change. I saw massive immigration replacing the population
>of entire cities. At the same time I became completely disolusioned
>with the state of modren Teutonic-American culture. I decided to find
>out where we had come from. There was a loud voice in me that said I
>would find incredible things on this quest. I had figured that no one
>had done much research on the subject of pre-xian Teutonic culture. How
>could they have?
its called archology a subject I dearly love and read about maybe you should
get some of the past issues of the archology compendums from digs in germany
as well as ones curently going on.
No one seemed to know anything about it. I set it as
>my goal to learn first where the German Folk had come from, then to
>track our history from the beginning to the modern era, only then did I
>plan to read about what had happened in the Nazi era. I followed this
>path. It took years. What I found was that before Hitler it was
>popular to learn about our heritage. I found that the Nazis had
>perverted and twisted the truth to suite their demented ends. I learned
>that out of the humiliation of defeat in a horiffic war that was
>followed by a defistating economic depression rose a collective madness
>called Nazisim.
>
>I had learned that my folk originated from the Indo-European Folk. The
>unparalleled impact of the Indo-Europeans on world history and culture
>struck me with awe. At the same time I understood how this knowledge
>had been used to justify, in the Nazi's minds, the genocide to the Folk
>of my childhood hero, Albert Einstein. I have never doubted that the
>crimes against humanity commited by the Nazis were wrong. I found
>myself walking the streets at night alone with tears in my eyes,
>fighting with myself trying to decide wich way to go. If I came out
>favoring the preservation of my Folk would I lead to a repeat of the
>Nazi atrocities? Was it fair that the other races of the world were
>reproducing four times faster than my Folk and moving into our teritory
>at an alarming rate? What did I want out of life?
Our teritory hmmm well we did kinda take it from others. Cultures migrate and
change if we assimulate the best of our culture with others are not both made
stronger. What my neighbor is does not change what I am. The fact that some
generations ago one of my ancesters married a native american does not change
who I am. If my son marries a non norseman it does not change who he or his
children are. We are more than the sum of our parts we are more than a
genitic heritage.
>
>I have never accepted the "resistance if futile" motto of so many people
>who just accept that the changes they don't like going on around them
>are inevitable. I believe in determining my own destiney not haveing it
>chosen for me.
Is not the idea of orlog and wyrd part of our faiths ( im not asatru but
worship the norse gods in my own way) . How we meet our wyrd is more
important than what it is. Just as Odin can not escape his wyrd ( he doesnt
even try ) we have a orlog meeting it with honor is what matters.
>
>As a young child I became facinated with the Heavens. One of my
>earliest memories is of my older brother telling me of meeting John
>Glen. He told me that John Glen was the first man to have orbited the
>earth. I remember the day when we gathered around the TV set to watch
>Neil Armstrong put his foot on the Moon. I studied everything that I
>could put my hands on regarding Astro-Physics. (As a matter of fact
>this highschool dropout is getting ready to apply to a Ph.D. program in
>Computational Astro-Physics.) The sky represents and alwas has
>represented to me an awsome and profound Truth.
>
>In thoes dark days when is was trying to find which way I wanted to try
>to lead my Folk I came to a fork in the road. I did not know which road
>to take. I looked up to the Sky and asked. The Sky looked back at me
>crossed his arms and said, "You'll have to figure that one out for
>yourself." I looked up at the Sky and said, 'Thanks Tyr. I wont let it
>end.'
>
>Freiheit und Friede
>--
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/valfather
>
Change is not an end the world is smaller and grows bigger each day. Hell John
Glen would have killed for even this computer I use to type on. Our ancesters
did what they did by adapting not withdrawing. My studys have been of the
norse not the german, when the norse where faced with change they did it on
thier terms but they did change.
Ulftonn
Hnikar
Well, it had to happen sooner or later, the universalist resort to bland
reductionist interpretations of the myths, with their tales of numinous
powers, as being mere modern encouragements to obliterate our genetic
traits by intermixing with those of more dominant traits. And still the
inability to understand that a mix of Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic
ancestors is no mix at all, but merely a reunion of different branches
of the same Folk.
Hnikar
In your post asking for a definition of "universalist", two things.
First, a good deal of what you wrote really made no sense whatsoever,
relating the Folkish understanding of the Faith as beng of only our Folk
to a concept that Odin is of another Folk. Very odd thought-process on
your part! Second, the definition of universalist is one who seeks to
revise the ancestral nature of the Faith by opening worship of our gods
to people of other ancestry, without the inherent understanding of a
spiritual perspective developed from our Folksoul.
Of course, you know this on some level, but still revert always to
calling a belief that the faith, in many forms, has been the faith of
one people, is the faith of one people, "universalist". Very odd
thinking, Susan.
As for the post which you also sent to my e-mail address ("netiquette"
aside, if I care to hear your opinion- I'll read it on the newsgroup,
thanks), there is nothing you ask that has not been answered a hundred
times, including in the post you quote.
Hnikar
Oh, no, Susan, not the "soul is a Christian concept" again! It is
complete nonsense, which you acknowledge by saying it is based on
indigenous concepts.
D B Graphics
Paal-Eirik wrote
>>Not to flog a 'dead horse', but while Stalin early on massacred his
Military's leadership even before 'Barbarossa' and the German invasion,
he proved to be a wiser 'Vozhd' (Russian for 'Fuehrer'/'Leader') by
actually reconditioning his attitude towards the Red Army and
restraining
himself from further damages to the military leadership.
His internal shock at Hitler's invasion ['his friend'] forced Stalin to
listen to and accept the the harsh criticism from Marshall Timoshenko
who lambasted Stalin publically in front of his military staff because
his arrogance allowed the Germans to organize the invasion- something
even Soviet Intelligence knew about months beforehand thru their
superior
espionage network in and around Germany...(purposefully ignored by
Stalin
who only trusted Hitler above all other European leaders..)<<
New evidence after the fall of the "wall" points the the fact that the
Soviets were preparing to envade first and were not finished massing
along the border and got caught "with their pants down" when the Germans
went in.
Looks as if both sides were nothing close to "friends" and it just was a
matter of time before one or the other made the move first - as it
happened the Germans moved first and ran over lots of troops who were
just not ready to defend but were in prep. for an invasion of their own.
>>Hitler wasted the Germans and all possible fortunes and lost everything
to everyone<<
He was just a man and due to his failings - he lost all with the German
people paying the cost for his mistakes. I always wondered what would
have happened if Reinhard H. had not gotten a few English bullets in his
gut, but rather taken the healm of the German govt.
The more you dig into politics of any country the more dirt you
get......
The US is in no way exempt from dirt in the beltway.
D B Graphics
And she wrote...
>>I understand genetics perfectly well enough to understand that it has
no place in my religion. Ancestry is important, but I will not
sacrifice certain other value system choices to maintain "racial
purity" (if there is even any such thing). It really comes down to
this simple concept - love is thicker than DNA. If I love or care
about someone - whether that someone is my lover, my friend, or my
GOD - I am not going to love based on genetics, labels, appearance,
height, weight, astrological sign, shoe size, fashion deafness,
economic situation, suntan level, or any of the bullshit that
distracts from the SPIRIT of the living entity. <<
NO ONE has forced anything on you... you have your path - its just the
old I am Tru so I have copy on Asatru(tm)
How may times do Folkish Asatru have to post there are at least TWO
religions in "Asatru"? They are at least as dif. as Cath. vs Baptist.
>>Nor do I think it is really worth my while to bother trying to set you straight<<
Its not - not at all worth your time to try and force your ideas on that
religion...
Sound fam.?
>>I do not know where this "universalist" label came from, I don't
feel it is really appropriate, but then again, I am not the one who
really needs to depend on labels or putting people into little
boxes and categories. <<
The term came from the "universalist" camp - and coined by a
"universalist"
Good for you if you dont think you need categories.
>>Spirit calls to Spirit when a Deity chooses or calls a person - and believe me,
it is not the other way around.<<
To ME that is not true at all - but as a "jungian" (as I have been
called) I have a dif. outlook on spiritual ideas that are outside of the
Folk vs Universalist thing.
>>Pantheons of Gods should indeed not be treated like modes of fashion or
channels on TV. <<
Wow! we agree on something.
>>You are daring to presume that my faith is a falsehood. You have no
way to prove these claims, which you would be happy to have taken
as "gospel" (pun intended) by anyone who didn't know better who
might read this group. I simply won't allow that and will present
my view. You can have yours, but do not presume that mine is a
falsehood unless you can prove it. Since you can't, quit while
you're ahead. When you say it's a falsehood, that is your OPINION,
and you will either have to state so; or otherwise prove it if
you believe it to be a fact. <<
I love this...
Fact: I cannot prove or disprove your religion - the end
No religion, faith, or spritualism can be proven in a scientific
setting.
The christians have tried to "prove" that their (pathetic sick death
worship - I just had to put that in...) "god" was real - guess what.
No repeatable empirical data for the existance or non existance of ANY
Gods or spirits has ever presented itself in the scientific comunity.
So all we have left is Faith - my view is that all faith is valid and at
the same time invalid as none of us can PROVE any of it. (personal
hallucinations invalid as scientific fact)
>>Or, shall we say....."the mentality of the folk".<<
The wise guest has his way of dealing
With those who taunt him at table:
He smiles through the meal,
not seeming to hear
The twaddle talked by his foes.
of the Havamal....
>>Well you'd better not spread your limbs into the realm of telling
me what to do with mine, or you'll find them rather shorter by half. <<
I don't think that Hinakar woul ever want to...
>>I *AM* a FreyasGydhia, not a new age "white lites/fluffy bunny" hippie,
and when some race-obsessed mortal tries to tell me my calling from
Her is a falsehood, I defy any of you to prove it. <<
Prove what? You have faith in something, the only one who can prove or
disprove you faith is you.
To Wotan and you health
Doug
Valfather
harald Steelfoot wrote:
> The
> term 'Indo-European' is itself a PC term. The proper term is
> 'Indo-Aryan' -
> a term that was abandoned by the community of 'scholars' following the
> insanity of Hitlers' Reich, when reference to anything 'Aryan' became
> viewed
> as abhorent.
Well, you are correct in spirit. The term Indo-Aryan often meant the
White Folk who migrated into India and Iran. Two terms for the I.E.
before Hitler (scum that he was) were Aryan and Indo-Germanic. There
are prominent linguists of today who still maintain that the name
Ireland derives form the term Aryan. I tend to prefer the term Aryan
because it says to the listener exactly what you mean regarding physical
type. Unfortunately it also rings there 'Nazi' bell.
Hnikar
Somehow, SDWAM, I thought you'd miss the subtle irony of the
"monocultural" India, and I was right. I've written a couple of
articles in the past few months concerning the proto-Indo-European
culture, so I am aware of the point you make- mine was that all the ills
which are placed at the feet of my people, and for which the solution
presented is amalgamation, seem to have instead been exasperated by the
the disappearance of my people from the genetic stew of modern India
(which is something of an oxymoron).
Having travelled extensively, I am quite aware of the "communal"
conflicts which plague India and have had the interesting experience of
speaking to members of many of the ethnic and religious groups involved.
I am sorry if my allusion was too subtle, but others do seem to have
"got it".
Derrick Parfitt
Susan Granquist <valk...@eskimo.com> wrote:
Derrick Parfitt wrote:
sk...@aol.com (Skadi) wrote:
>> > I agree with you. I think too many people take up too much time check ing the
>> > racial backgrounds of everyone who wants to follow this path. As long as your
>> > heart, mind, and soul are into it, welcome aboard. :)
>>Their mind might be into it, maybe their heart, but not their soul.
>> Blood really does matter.
>How does blood contribute to a "soul?" Is a soul bound by blood?
The Folksoul contributes to and is ever entwined with the blood.
>How?
Genetics, DNA...the exact mechanics of how it is that way is beyond
anyone's knowledge at the present. Remember, physical traits have
been proven to be related to genetic and more recently intellectual
and behavorial traits have also. The latter two were a bit harder to
prove. In the future, I am sure that spiritual traits will also be
shown to be related to genetics. The scientific methods just aren't
there yet. (Not counting the politics involved which will be a whole
new can of worms)
> Where are the terms for such connections in the language or the
>lore?
Why dot you treat the lore as as if it were the Bible and you are an
inquisitor?
>You do realize that "soul" itself is a Christian concept with the term
>being introduced by the Christians even though based on Germanic concepts
>of the holy element of water?
Judaism does not have a concept of a soul as it is defined in
Christianity. The spread of Hellinistic philosophy into Jewish
culture brought the concept of a "soul" to the Semetic peoples. This
new Semitic philosophy was a voice in Jesus Christ.
The Christian definition "soul" is not the same as the Indo-European
people's definition of the word "soul" even though there are overlaps.
>
>Heart, mind and soul are much closer to the description of the soul
>complex as those heathen ancestors perceived things..and supposedly if
>they did..so would we by right of "blood" or soul... right?
Their mind might be into it. They might think the idea of following
the Northern Gods interesting, fulfilling, etc.
Their heart might be into it. This is less likely than the first
statement as now they have to start feeling that following the
Northern Gods is the way for them to go....a much harder task.
Their soul can't be into it It can't be true due to genetics. This
is the true telling point, the great Rubicon, the great divide. They
are just foling themselves, they should be helped to find their own
way, not he way of the Northern Gods which isn't their way at all.
When I refer to "they" or "them" in this post I am referring to
people who want or try to follow the ways of the Northern Gods, but
are not of the folk (White European). This does not mean that I am
perjuring them or that I despise them. It simply means that they are
not of the folk and cann not follow our spiritual ways.
J.H.Peck
Heilsa,
Sorry to have taken this long to reply on this thread .
I'd like to that most everyone that replied to my friend's question
, for the most part the replies have been well thought out , and have
provided me with much to pass on , as well as much to think about .
On background , my friend doesn't really have any idea on the
percentage of Spanish to Mestizo (or whatever) in his background , he's
always thought of himself as half Swedish/American and half Mexican
(though he prefers the term Hispanic) . Appearance ? Picture Eric
Estrata at 25 , but with green eyes and a goatee (yes ,sorry ladies ,
he's about to be married).
To those who thought I was trolling , nope , honest question from
a middle-of-the-roader (nearly dead-center on the "J"scale) .
Fridh,
Loke.@po.ia.dk
>Loke.@po.ia.dk wrote:
>
>> It seems hitler didn't live for nothing, sadly...
>>
>> From a so called 'pureblooded' Dane.
>> Loke.
>
>Look folks, I got the Nazi prize! :-)
>
brave of your's 'volk'...
> You only get this one when you
>opponent runs out of anything productive or intelligent to say.
>
What should be needed said more?, after all your stuff about 'race' and
'purity', it should be clear what you are.
> This is
>usually a reward for adhering to your principles in the face of
>continual condemnation.
>
You wanna to be prized for being a nazi?.
> You
>really need to be Nordic to win this honor.
>
'Nordic' is a expression for people who live a certain place, mostly it
refferate to Norse, so if you wanna be called 'Nordic', you'll need to
move your little naziass.
>Again I thank you for demonstrating that you have nothing productive or
>intelligent to say.
>
I'm sure that you would not understand it anyway, Christians normaly
don't understand what I'm talking about.
> I am not like the Dane of today. My eponimic
>ancestor left Denmark over a thousand years ago.
>
Must have been christians.
> I may look a lot like
>a Dane,
>
I'm sure we not are 'pure' enough for a 'pure' Nazisvein like you.
> but unlike the Danes of today my fathers did not bend over and
>ask Hitler to please just be gentle. We kicked his butt.
>
Din lille argre tumpe af en Niding, families of mine fightede in the war
for the English.
If any of your family fightede against the nazisveins, then must they be
rotating in their graves now, because of you.
Måtte den trebenede tage da'r,
************************************ Stat, Lorrens,
*Poul Martin Jensen Lo...@eskimo.com* men jeg gaar forbi,
*(Net-alias Loke;) Loke.@po.ia.dk * hos hver Sænne som et Hestelaar,
*Ting og Hovmand for: * hver en som en Møllesten!
*Asetro-Nord. *---------------------------------
*Sejdsankeren. * Stand, Dog,
************************************ while I go pass,
have every Sinew like a Horseleg,
each one as a Millstone!
Jarnsaxa
Just as a note: I am not intending to debate the relative merits and/or
demerits of Folk Asatru and "Non-Genetic Based" (NGB) Asatru (better than
"universalist", but much more ungainly, I know...). I'm simply wanting to
make a couple comments on tactics that possibly have made communication and
constructive discussion between the groups more difficult.
Just as Folk Asatruer resent being compared to or called Nazi's, NGB
Asatruers resent having their beliefs belittled as being New Agey or
invalid. I know that several NGB Asatruers have accused Folk Asatruers of
trying to force their beliefs down other's throats, and the Folk Asatruers
have responded that not only do they not force their beliefs on anyone, but
if someone comes to them who is not appropriate for their practice, they
would refer them to an NGB group. However, the Folk sentiment towards the
NGB groups has been expressed like this:
> >>I, for one, don't think that Folkish Asatru is the only way to worship
> >>the gods. I simply think it is the way that is true to the spirit of
> >>the ancestral faith rather than to the pop religions which merely are
> >>variations of the universalism which predominates in the insular
> >>thoughts of this time and place.
Now, I have NO idea who posted this, and I'm not intending to single just
one person out -- I've seen other comments in this same vein. I have a
feeling that it is this kind of a statement, which can sound VERY
condescending, that creates the feeling that NGB Asatru is being dismissed
by the Folk Asatruers, almost as if it is not a genuine faith with real
spiritual relevance for its followers, but rather an attempt at simply
"play-acting" or something.
If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion, perhaps instead of saying "I
don't think Folk Asatru is the only way to worship the gods, I simply think
it is the way that is true to the spirit...", saying "I don't think Folk
Asatru is the only way to worship the gods, I simply find it to be the most
appropriate way for me, as I understand the practices of our ancestors" or
something to that effect. That makes the same point that you consider it
to be more true to our ancestors, but it doesn't put anyone else down.
As for the flip side of the coin, I can understand where the "Nazi"
comparisons come from, but in my own personal opinion, I don't know that
it's the most constructive way for NGB Asatruers to convey their feelings
about Folk Asatruers. I doubt it gets much attention paid to it: if it's
accurate, then it would not be considered a label of shame, and if its not
accurate, it's been heard so many times by now that it no longer has much
shock value left.
I hope that everyone will take these comments in the spirit I intend them,
which is simply to try and help find ways to make dialogue more possible,
if that is what is wanted. Again, I am not trying to make judgements on
the value (or lack their of) of EITHER side of this division.
In Frith,
Jarnsaxa-Fa'lki Geraldsdottir
=================================
"I am become grey....
I stand between the darkness and the light...
...between the candle and the star." -- Delenn, Babylon 5
=================================
Asatru Information: http://www.localip.net/~jarnsaxa/OakHof
Email: jarn...@localip.net
Personal Home Page: http://www.localip.net/~jarnsaxa/IronKnife
Susan Granquist
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Hnikar wrote:
> What matters is whether one loves one's people and one's culture, or
> whether one believes that these do not matter. I find the latter a very
> odd way of being. I will do what I may to ensure that the bright-eyed
> children of our Folk, and our native and creative spirit, survives into
> the distant future- that our recessive but valuable genetic traits do
> not follow the path to oblivion of our kinsmen who once lived on the
> Indian subcontinent. In the slums of Calcutta, in the helpless poverty
> of Bangladesh, there is nothing to recall the glory that once was.
If one loves a "culture" then it is accepted that the culture is not
"genetically" defined, and a culture is often made up of more than one
religious view. If it is a genetic trait that is not recessive then how do
you explain the predominately Christian influence on the Northern European
people in promoting that "inventiveness?" Clocks so that they would know
when to pray, movable type to publish Bibles.. Are we to accept the more
than a thousand years of "ancestral" and cultural spirituality and
inventiveness because those ancestors were Christian? Or are we looking
to the pre-Christian perceptions and world views as expressed by a
particular and unique expression of the faith of those pre-Christain
ancestors and the tivar?
> Each people should take pride in itself, and seek to achieve what
> creativity and inventiveness they may, to honor their ancestors and be
> true to themelves. It is a good thing to see the Africans in this
> country donning traditional African fabrics and learning Swahili, and
> the creation of Kwanzaa. I nod with approval at the American Indians
> who go to the sweat lodges and honor their ancient warriors like Red
> Cloud. So, too, will we follow our ways, honor those whose blood flows
> in us and whose Odinic spirit we share, and take joy in the smiles of
> our future generations.
Swahili was one language among many others. Are you also going to deny
those who are white and who live in Africa based on their culture being
"black" even though in some cases that "inventiveness" and dominating
spirit subjugated those same indigenous people..although I personally
think it had more to do with the Christian concept of being the "chosen"
and all others somewhat less than human...then with the world view that
came before as those who had gone before settled, and even if they didn't
intermarry contributed to a new cultural expression.
> Who among the American Indians would honor ancestors who did not
> struggle for their future and their culture, who took no pride in who
> they were, who had no interest in the well-being of their people? Who
> among the Asians and the Africans? Who in future generations of our
> Folk will honor those of this day who did not value them?
Perhaps those who are Christian. It is interesting to note that many of
the "Indian" activists are as much as three-quarters white..yet are
considered "Native Americans." Perhaps one of the Folkish could explain
the ratio used by those who take pride in their "culture" but who blithely
ignore the differences between the Celtic and the Scandianvian, the Baltic
and so on despite the similarity in "appearance?"
Susan Granquist
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, D B Graphics wrote:
> Susan Granquist wrote
>
> >>How do you define a Universalist?<<
>
> Come on Susan - see the "J" scale from GASP! a Universalist!
The stupid "J" scale is just more "labeling" without recourse to a
dictionary or reality. I don't care who is playing around with it. I've
said that from the first time the idea of putting people on scales
according to a couple of issues went.
>
> >>Isn't it someone who believes that there is an "all-pervading divine energy
> or essence,...Or that believe that "this underlying divinity expresses
> itself" or
> that perhaps the gods and goddesses have revealed themselves through the
> millennia in one form...or another? Or that we're all related because
> the
> Creator (whatever he's/she's known as) created everyone?<<
>
> Buzztttt! wrong! - Susan you know full well this has been dredged up
> time and time again and - Guess what! - most have come to the fact that
> Folkish Asatru is a dif. religion than what shows up on the scale as
> "universalist"
Again, exactly what is "Universalist?" Besides a buzz word for those who
are Folkish Asatru which enables them to fog and dissemble while pointing
to a vague "other?" Most is who exactly? The few in this newsgroup who
have some kind of fantasy of being persecuted by or compromised because
they have chosen to call themselves Asatru and to insist that they're a
different religion ...different enough to need a qualifier, and to try and
redefine everyone else who calls themselves Asatru too? I'm no
Universalist, and while I'm proud of my ethnic background, and am
dedicated to the disir who are ancestral deities, am certainly not
identified with the Folkish Asatruar either. Perhaps it's because I
accept the fact that Asatru is a diverse religion with room enough for
many views, rather then spending my time trying to "oust" others with
rhetoric.
Universalist has a particular emphasis due to the base "Universe" or
"Universal" which suggests *one* universe, one creator and so on.
"Extending over all, comprehending, or including the whole of something
specified or implied; prevalent over all. and in theological terms "One
who believes or maintains the doctrine that redemption or election is
extended to the whole of mankind and not confined to a part of it; spec.,
in U.S. a member of a sect or Church holding this doctrine (Oxford
English Dictionary). Why do you think you keep getting "Universalist"
spam in here?
1. Universalism. a.. Theology. The doctrine of universal salvation. b.
Unitarian Universalism.
Universalist n. Abbr. Univ. An adherent of Unitarian Universalism.
American Heritage Dictionary.
The Folk Asatruar insist that they are not part of "universalistic"
Asatru..which by *its definition* would have to mean the whole body of
Asatru. Hence..not Asatru...and the apparent need for Adjectives.
I have yet to see anyone in Asatru espouse that there was any kind of
universal salvation necessary. For those who like the "affirmative
action" approach, the "diversity in separate but equally respected ethnic
groups" is even odder, as it sounds like the statements on the various
Folk Asatru pages who promote the "folkish" in other religions who promote
a separatism (not to be confused with supremism) for their ethnic
religions.
Recognizing that the Folk of Northern Europe were tribal at one time, and
that those tribes merged and became nations and identified largely by
"nationalities"or a region (Northern Europe) we have the Folkish types
banding together into one group that hails "the nation of Odin" that goes
beyond all boundaries, and is "universal" existing where ever the
"folk" do. The rehetoric runs along the line of Odin's chosen people,
with self-congratulatory posts back and forth to one another that have
their parallels in any Christian newgroup.
> >>To me this sounds a bit like Identity Christianity.. I know one of those
> guys who soberly explained that Odin was really "Jewish" (or rather one
> of
> the lost ten tribes of Israel). Maybe on his way through Troy...from the
> Garden..<<
>
> That is a sad, sad, smear - Identity christianity - get real! folkish
> Asatru has NOT ONE SINGLE THING TO DO WITH IDENTITY!
Doesn't it? I think that the emphasis on the "white race" and Northern
Europeans as the chosen people has more than a little in common with some
of the statements made by Folkish Asatruar in here lately. What about the
statement by Stve McNallen here in alt.religion.asatru concerning the
creation of the world by Woden, and his brothers (see dejavnews) being
reason enough to claim kinship with an individual that is not Caucasian as
it makes him a twig on the World Tree? How does that differ substantially
from Universlism that makes us all "related" by virtue of a shared
humanity? And yet, who can also state that Asatru is more suited to "us"
because it was shared by our ancestors and we're more like them than
anyone else.
> I do not see christianity in any form as anything but destructive. The
> ideas of ANY christian on the nature of Asatru is just a bad use of good
> air!
Perhaps if you were a bit more familiar with Christianity you'd recognize
the unconscious incursion of it into the rhetoric and posturing in the
newsgroup. You'd also realize why people post things like Universalist
"get your own minstership" advertisements here. :)
Frankly I laughed for a good half hour when I realized why they might have
picked up on this newgroup. Do a search on Universalism on dejanews.
Then post to any group that is using the term... *poof* you hit
alt.religion.asatru.
> Get used to the concept Asatru has at least TWO valid religions that use
> the name Asatru!
I think there's one valid religion called Asatru and a lot of people who
can't separate themselves from a concept of being a "chosen people" and
who do not want to be Asatru as it would associate them with people of
THAT religion so they tack on a qualifier and rant about how they aren't
Asatru..but Folk Asatru. How very "catholic" of you all, as that's the
game the Christians have been playing for the last 1800 years or
so...defining themselves into "sects" based on their perception of who is
doing it right and therefore "more chosen" and sure of SALVATION then
anyone else.
We also see the influence of the Theosophical views of von List and the
"runic magicians" of the last century who out did Blum and his New Age
runic philosophy with the combination of Christianity, Theosophany and
just plain channeled mysticism combined with the folk terms of a romatic
revialist period. He ignored the Eddas too..since they didn't agree with
his self-authored philsophy and magical system and made-up runes.
It is nice, however, that the fo'lktru' are so adamant about being a
different religion than those of us who profess Asatru, and who don't see
any need for qualifying adjectives, being "separate" or banding together
into a universal nation of Odin. Perhaps you'd all be happier in
alt.religion.Folk.Asatru?
Susan Granquist
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Hnikar wrote:
> I, for one, don't think that Folkish Asatru is the only way to worship
> the gods. I simply think it is the way that is true to the spirit of
> the ancestral faith rather than to the pop religions which merely are
> variations of the universalism which predominates in the insular
> thoughts of this time and place. Given the spirit of universalist forms
> of Asatru, one could substitute nearly any gods- there is little
> difference at the core between it and any of the other "neo-pagan"
> religions which arose from the 60's counterculture.
So it would be the ones practicing counter-culteralism in Asatru who have
the universalist forms?
Where would the person who made the following statement belong, do you
think?
"Furthermore, the gods and goddesses have continually revealed themselves
through the millennia, in one form to Kennewick Man and in another form to
the Germanic tribes. The continuity remains, even though Kennewick Man
would not have known the name Odin and would not have spoken a Germanic
language."
Not a "culturalist" view, but a "universalist" in that "the gods" of the
Germanic/Scandinavian cultures/peoples becomes nearly any other gods,
wouldn't you agree?
> If it's what you want, go for it- my point was simply that your claims
> that people were shoving something down your throat have no basis in
> reality. The intention of the Folkish Asatruar is to offer an authentic
> alternative to the falsehood of universality, of rootlessness. None has
> ever told you to do anything, contrary to your wild claims.
Rootlessness, and yet in defense of the "Folkish" view, didn't you just
state that there was no way of knowing where the "folk" had come from to
get to Scandinavia or Northern Europe? Yet the identity is with Northern
Europe, just as the identity of the Native Americans is with the American
continent regardless of where they came from originally..or who else was
here, or had been here.
I agree that no one has told anyone that they can't be Asatru...and I do
think it's really nice that those who see themselves as being different
from the mainstream view of Asatru are identifying themselves so
creatively.
> In any age or place, the majority of people do not think so much as
> follow popular thought- hence in Egypt people tend to become Moslem, in
> Poland they tend to become Catholic, and so forth. 17th century Salem's
There's also the matter of state churches.
> the mentality of the herd. In the U.S. and much of Europe there has
> been a paradigm shift, most noticable in the 60's, away from religious
> expressions of universalism to secular, consumerist versions of it, but
> at heart it is the same force in terms of monocultural tendencies. Most
> "neo-pagan" faiths, including universalist Asatru, follow popular
> thought in this regard. Folkish Asatru, on the other hand, is the next
> paradigm- rooted firmly in the ancestral spirit, and spreading its limbs
> toward a new dawn.
Perhaps you'd define monoculturalists? Isn't it the view that if one is
Black one belongs to one cuture, and White to another..etc., and can be
honored if they're following those ways...even though the ways represent
dozens, even hundreds of "cultures" and languages?
That reducing things to what a person's perceived "culture" is based on
their appearance is some what questionable.
Valfather
>>I'm sure that you would not understand it anyway, Christians normaly
don't understand what I'm talking about.<<
If you are referring to me as an Xian I really have to laugh. I have
never been xian; neither has my father nor was his father. I was raised
to believe in the scientific explanation of the origins of the Universe.
The only religion I have ever had is Heathen.
>>> I am not like the Dane of today. My eponimic
>ancestor left Denmark over a thousand years ago.
>
Must have been christians.<<
The name is a direct cognate to the word Heathen and the cognates of
Heathen in every Germanic Language. We may have professed Xianism when
we took control of England in 1066 but there is evidence of the old ways
surviving in my family to the time of Elizabeth I. (My family name is
the only one clearly carved on the Queen's bedpost, BTW.)
>>If any of your family fightede [fought] against the nazisveins [swine ?], then must they be
rotating in their graves now, because of you. [they must be rolling over
in their graves]<<
Actually the only member of my family who survives form the generation
that fought the Nazis is the one who taught me to be proud to be
Germanic. I know the difference between Nazi and Folkish. I also know
the King of Denmark wore a Star of David when Hitler ordered the Jews to
do so. If I'm not mistaken the King of Denmark descends form the
High-born of Heimdall.
BTW, I do respect you efforts to translate the Old Norse texts. One day
I hope to have the time to study your work.
Steven Thomas Hatton (Thomas is the last name of a soldier who died in
WW-II)
She Devil With A Modem
>>If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion, perhaps instead of saying "I
>>don't think Folk Asatru is the only way to worship the gods, I simply think
>>it is the way that is true to the spirit...", saying "I don't think Folk
>>Asatru is the only way to worship the gods, I simply find it to be the most
>>appropriate way for me, as I understand the practices of our ancestors" or
>>something to that effect. That makes the same point that you consider it
>>to be more true to our ancestors, but it doesn't put anyone else down.
You have hit upon the heart of the problem. In my definition, a racist
is a person who does not stop at simple regional or ancestral pride; but
has a neurotic insecurity and fear of others and simply has to add that
he or she is "better" than "those other guys n' gals over there", for
"insert fear-based and illogical reason here". Fear of the unknown is
something that it is pathetic to see in those who try to associate
themselves with the Vikings of old. And no matter how it is candied up
and disguised, fear of the unknown and the different is at the heart of
racism. It has no place in Asatru as far as I am concerned. Yes, there
are going to be those who view those handed down "fears" as "traditions"
of their ancestors and attempt to maintain those views as part of
their honor - and of course they are free to do so. What I will not
allow them to do is try to present that as "The One Tru Way(tm)" to
worship Asatru on a global newsgroup where people who may not know any
better might be reading and thinking we ALL hold those views. I won't
allow the Folkish to claim the practice of "Asatru" is theirs alone. It's
not.
>>As for the flip side of the coin, I can understand where the "Nazi"
>>comparisons come from, but in my own personal opinion, I don't know that
>>it's the most constructive way for NGB Asatruers to convey their feelings
>>about Folk Asatruers. I doubt it gets much attention paid to it: if it's
>>accurate, then it would not be considered a label of shame, and if its not
>>accurate, it's been heard so many times by now that it no longer has much
>>shock value left.
My observations are not done for shock value. They are done to inject
some logic and truth back into the discourse. They are done to ensure
opinions remain known to be opinions, and are not presented as facts
to mislead "the herd" into following blindly along, and "the different"
to wander away in confusion and discouragement and perhaps end up
taking entirely too long to reach their spiritual potential - although
when Nordic Gods choose, such people as try to stand in the way end up
usually only serving as speed bumps.
>>I hope that everyone will take these comments in the spirit I intend them,
>>which is simply to try and help find ways to make dialogue more possible,
>>if that is what is wanted. Again, I am not trying to make judgements on
>>the value (or lack their of) of EITHER side of this division.
Dialogue is only possible where there is courtesy. So long as the Folkish
refuse to learn how to control their desire to "put down" other groups,
that courtesy will never exist, and I will call a racist a racist for
as long as they behave like one. Nor will I allow a racist to dictate
what my faith is to me, or to others.
Jarnsaxa, your desire to communicate with intelligence and courtesy is
great, and I thank you for it - but if you wish to establish courtesy,
then leave the little box to put me in and the label for the box at
home. I am a free woman, no thrall, and I neither need nor will accept
a quantifier for the way I worship, which is Asatru. No more, and
definitely no less.
Never once have I protested anything Hnikar or Valfather or other
Folkish have posted that shows pride in themselves and their ways.
I only make my comments when I see misinformation, putdowns, lies,
and condescension toward others who also practice the Asatru faith,
which are presented as "facts" rather than the opinions they are.
Moving away from racism requires unlearning and an open enough mind
to really take a good, long, hard look at WHY there is a need to put
others down, or differentiate oneself from others based on reasons
that are not reflected in ANY of the lore. Some of them are adopted
(as Susan pointed out) from Christian "social control" behaviors.
Others are unfortunately more political in origin. Whereever those
reasons are coming from, they are nothing I consider valid enough
to cause me to ignore the call of Freya; and I consider anyone's
attempt to BAR me from that worship as objectionable and "forced"
as someone else who would DEMAND that I worship their god.
One of the things I picked up in Germany while I was there was
the very divided nature of the country well into the 1920's was
the reason for the term "The Folk". They called the people
that because they got TIRED of having to refer to the surrounding
populace as "The Jutes and The Gauls and The Huns and The
Franks". Germany was and is the crossroads of Europe, EVERYONE
went through there sooner or later and it was easier to just
say "The Folk" than to have to keep straight the tribe name and
rank of every goddamned little barony or city-state. Hell, even
today they still speak at least 3 different variations of the
language depending on where you go in the country, with
innumerable dialects. So all this attempt to classify and
categorize people hardly strikes me as "true ancestral" behavior,
unless of course you're not looking beyond the 1940's.