What is Asatru?
root
terrorist attack on the WTC, Islam, Bin Laden and The Taliban, I feel it is
time to reflect on what Asatru *is*, what it's place in the world *is*, and
what true Asatruar represent.
So here we go.....
1. What is Asatru?
2. Where and when did the modern reconstruction of Asatru originate?
3. What does it mean to be an Asatruar?
4. What are the [moral] teachings of the Asatru tradition?
5. What are the spiritual aspects of Asatru (if any)?
6. Is Asatru one religon, or, a group of traditions (like Druidry or Wicca)
?
7. What specifically, is the link (if any) between Asatru and white
supremicism/racism ?
8. What does the Asatru tradition bring to those who follow it ?
9. Why follow the Asatru tradition ?
There's quite a bit there, I think I've covered most major points in my
inquiry. It is my hope that much information and wisdom flows here. I know
that much of this info is readily available from the Asatru resources posted
regularly by Dirk Bruere, but it is my opinion that you can't beat a good
discussion.
BTW before you ask, my main interest in Asatru has come from learning about
the Runes.
Hoping for a flood of replies.
Please feel free to answer only one question if answering all nine seems a
bit much. I would rather see one in-depth answer to one question than nine
one-line answers to all questions.
Also, if quoting texts - please provide references (preferably on-line
references), this will make things much easier to follow for everyone.
with respect, and hope that I haven't alienated anyone here
root
Dirk Bruere
"root" <mat...@nworder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9oo1bb$val$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> 7. What specifically, is the link (if any) between Asatru and white
> supremicism/racism ?
White Supremacists see Asatru as the natural religion of the Northern
European peoples. They are correct.
That is as far as it goes.
Asatru as a religion provides no ideological or theological basis for
racism, which is why Hitler is so often grafted on. The result is not
Asatru, but the more accurate term 'Hitler Worship' has rather a nasty ring
to it, even for them.
FFF
Dirk
Ingeborg S. Norden
A modern adaptation of the pre-Christian religion practiced by various ancient
peoples in Northern Europe.
>Where and when did the modern reconstruction of Asatru originate?
Although it's generally accepted that the Asatru revival began in the early
1960s, the exact *location* of that first revival is uncertain; various people
around the world have claimed that honor.
>What does it mean to be an Asatruar?
It means accepting a range of theology, ethics, philosophy, and ritual practice
associated with that adaptation--to the exclusion of those in other traditions.
> What are the [moral] teachings of the Asatru tradition?
There are several values I'd think of as typically Heathen:
--Loyalty (to the gods, to family, to like-minded others regardless of their
ethnic or genetic background)
--Courage in adversity (but not recklessness)
--Acceptance of fate (when it cannot be changed by human effort)
--Honor (breaking one's word earns a bad reputation both with the gods and with
humans)
--Interdependence (among members of the community, but also between humans and
gods; willingness to give and help when that is genuinely needed)
--Self-reliance (not asking for help *needlessly* or taking advantage when
someone is able to set a situation right himself)
--Respect for history, learning, and tradition (not only in a
theological/ritual context, but generally)
> What are the spiritual aspects of Asatru (if any)?
Developing a sense of the gods' and lesser wights' reality--their workings in
our lives and in the larger world. For those who see "patron deities" as
important, I would add: developing a close friendship with one or more
deities, and following their example when it does not conflict with basic
morals.
>Is Asatru one religon, or, a group of traditions (like Druidry or Wicca)?
One tradition, with several variations based on regional cultures and on the
relative importance of the values discussed before. (Some Heathens place
greater emphasis on re-creating the exact cultural context of their faith;
others claim that this is unnecessary. Some see the "warrior ethic" as
encouraging physical conflict; others apply it more figuratively and broadly.
But *all* these people are Heathen, as long as their theology and ethics
generally come from the same historical sources.)
>What specifically, is the link (if any) between Asatru and white
>supremicism/racism ?
Some people have misused the Germanic imagery and origins of Asatru to justify
racism and white supremacy. However, our lore never implies that these
attitudes were part of historical Germanic religious teachings--or that the
gods endorse such an attitude among their modern followers.
>What does the Asatru tradition bring to those who follow it ?
Several things, actually:
--A set of reasonable, clear moral guidelines with a greater emphasis on
consequences here and now, than on an afterlife.
--An explanation for those parts of life and human experience which can't be
reduced to scientific laws or statistics.
--A connection with a culture to which we feel a close personal attachment,
whether or not that attachment is based on family ties.
_Siðr ok frœði oss saman binda!_
Ingeborg S. Nordén
(rune...@aol.com)
Ingeborg S. Norden
>European peoples. They are correct.
*ahem* No ethnic group has a "natural" religion; religions are *learned*
beliefs and behaviors. It might be more *logical* for people to develop
theology, values, and ritual consistent with the environments where they
live--but it's not set in the genes like hair color or susceptibility to a
disease.
I've often used the analogy of an English child orphaned and raised on a desert
island in the South Seas, with no influence from his biological parents'
culture whatsoever. Chances are good that he WON'T grow up finding English
easier to pronounce without some outside influence, and that he WON'T have some
mysterious craving for tea and scones! The same goes for religion; this child
WON'T feel some instinctive rightness about Woden--or about the Anglican Church
for that matter--the first time he's exposed to such things. For him, the
culture in which he was *raised* is the "right" frame of reference. He has
*learned* to be part of a non-English culture and would find it hard to live
and think like an Englishman from then on.
_Siðr ok frœði oss saman binda!_
Ingeborg S. Nordén
(rune...@aol.com)
Ingeborg S. Norden
(Holy delete keys! Remove the Batspam to reply.)
Dirk Bruere
"Ingeborg S. Norden" <rune...@aol.combatspam> wrote in message
news:20010924171316...@mb-fq.aol.com...
> >White Supremacists see Asatru as the natural religion of the Northern
> >European peoples. They are correct.
>
> *ahem* No ethnic group has a "natural" religion; religions are *learned*
> beliefs and behaviors. It might be more *logical* for people to develop
> theology, values, and ritual consistent with the environments where they
> live--but it's not set in the genes like hair color or susceptibility to a
> disease.
It is natural in that it is the original religious context that underlies
Northern European society.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
"Ingeborg S. Norden" <rune...@aol.combatspam> wrote in message
> >What is Asatru?
>
> A modern adaptation of the pre-Christian religion practiced by various
ancient
> peoples in Northern Europe.
>
> >Where and when did the modern reconstruction of Asatru originate?
>
> Although it's generally accepted that the Asatru revival began in the
early
> 1960s, the exact *location* of that first revival is uncertain; various
people
> around the world have claimed that honor.
It depends what you mean by 'modern'. One can certainly point to Germany in
the 1920s and even further back to the previous century if the actual word
'Asatru' is not the focus of the search.
FFF
Dirk
Bill Wheaton
"Ingeborg S. Norden" <rune...@aol.combatspam> wrote in message
> >White Supremacists see Asatru as the natural religion of the Northern
> >European peoples. They are correct.
>
> *ahem* No ethnic group has a "natural" religion; religions are *learned*
> beliefs and behaviors. It might be more *logical* for people to develop
> theology, values, and ritual consistent with the environments where they
> live--but it's not set in the genes like hair color or susceptibility to a
> disease.
*ahem* There are a number of definitions for the term "natural", one is
indiginous. Another is normal. I didn't take it to mean "genetic", did
you? People use logic. they develop things and value things. They are
part of nature, so these things must be natural.
Dirk Bruere
"Bill Wheaton" <billw...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9ooc5p$nhh$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> > >White Supremacists see Asatru as the natural religion of the Northern
> > >European peoples. They are correct.
> > *ahem* No ethnic group has a "natural" religion; religions are
*learned*
> > beliefs and behaviors. It might be more *logical* for people to develop
> > theology, values, and ritual consistent with the environments where they
> > live--but it's not set in the genes like hair color or susceptibility to
a
> > disease.
> *ahem* There are a number of definitions for the term "natural", one is
> indiginous. Another is normal. I didn't take it to mean "genetic", did
> you? People use logic. they develop things and value things. They are
> part of nature, so these things must be natural.
That's what I meant.
However, since you've raised the point...
I believe that the environment of a people influences the genetic makeup of
a people over thousands of years. In turn this feeds back into character
traits and how we interact with Nature and people in general via God
archetypes. The latter also have a genetic inbreeding effect, although
certainly less so than those peoples whose God restricts intermarriage or
specifies breeding practices.
FFF
Dirk
Ingeborg S. Norden
>indiginous. Another is normal. I didn't take it to mean "genetic", did
>you?
Some Heathens would go that far, unfortunately. Even with the other synonyms
you cited, I can still see potential problems:
(1) "Normal": I've known Scandinavians--and Germans, and Englishmen--who were
born and raised in the same environments as their pagan ancestors, who were
intensely proud of their history and homelands. Yet these people would be
ashamed, even horrified, to hear that some of their neighbors still believe in
the Aesir and Vanir. To those people, following Asatru would seem anything BUT
natural.
(2) "Indigenous": That word I've got no quarrel with, because the faith which
evolved into Asatru did develop among a certain group of people in a certain
place. However, even in ancient times I'm sure that there were born-and-raised
Germanic folks who doubted what they'd been taught about religion and the gods.
What's "indigenous" still has to be learned and accepted...and it is not
one-size-fits-all, not logically or emotionally perfect for everyone who grew
up in a certain geographical area with a certain kind of parents.
Bonnie Lynn
"Ingeborg S. Norden" <rune...@aol.combatspam> wrote in message
news:20010924165247...@mb-fq.aol.com...
> _Siğr ok froği oss saman binda!_
>
> Ingeborg S. Nordén
> (rune...@aol.com)
I just wanted to say "thanks"! I joined the list in hopes of learning more
about Northern practices. This gives a really clear and concise view as to
the expectations and benefits. Thanks for narrowing it down :)
Bonnie
--
Learn to work from home. Free Website.
Free Email. Free Training & More!
bon...@guaranteedhomebusiness.com
http://guaranteedhomebusiness.com/0216
Dirk Bruere
"Bonnie Lynn" <bonnie...@home.com> wrote in message
news:bFMs7.24246$w62.17...@news1.denver1.co.home.com...
>
>
> I just wanted to say "thanks"! I joined the list in hopes of learning more
> about Northern practices. This gives a really clear and concise view as to
> the expectations and benefits. Thanks for narrowing it down :)
> Bonnie
There is also something of a stigma attached to calling Asatru or Odinism
(when they don't overlap) 'Northern practices' or 'Northern Tradition'. It
implies an eclecticism that purists don't like.
Asatru and Odinism are quite specific religions.
'Northern' can refer to any ragbag of Wiccatru slung together to sell a book
to suckers.
'Llewellyn' comes to mind.
FFF
Dirk
Larry Johnson
claptrap to gain a Dollar or two. I have paged through a mountain of books
to find good ones, and they are few and far between.
Larry
"Dirk Bruere" <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hYMs7.5118$zu1.7...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Bertie the Bunyip
news:9oo1bb$val$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk:
> In light of the recent furore here in ara (and other ngs) resulting
> from the terrorist attack on the WTC, Islam, Bin Laden and The Taliban,
> I feel it is time to reflect on what Asatru *is*, what it's place in
> the world *is*, and what true Asatruar represent.
>
> So here we go.....
>
> 1. What is Asatru?
>
Neo nazi organisation bent on "restoring" the viking to his proper place in
the world. On top screwing the rest.
Bertie
>
>
Askr
> >White Supremacists see Asatru as the natural religion of the Northern
> >European peoples. They are correct.
My tuppence worth: it *is* the ancestral religion of these peoples, whether
or not it's the natural religion of these peoples. Thus, they are neither
correct nor incorrect; correctness implies a basis in provable facts, not
religious ones. I agree that it's only natural for those of European descent
(no matter their skin colour) to follow the gods of their ancestors, for
reasons I will outline below.
> *ahem* No ethnic group has a "natural" religion; religions are *learned*
> beliefs and behaviors. It might be more *logical* for people to develop
> theology, values, and ritual consistent with the environments where they
> live--but it's not set in the genes like hair color or susceptibility to a
> disease.
We do actually believe in an ancestral memory, passed down at a genetic
level, that relays certain patterns of thought that are more consistent with
Asatru than with Christianity. It is, in fact, in the genes, and science has
been investigating cellular memory for quite a few years, now. And if it was
simply a matter of environment, wouldn't it make sense that I would adopt
the Maori beliefs of New Zealand if I lived there, or the American Indian
beliefs if I lived there? Place does not dictate what is in the heart; the
soul does.
> I've often used the analogy of an English child orphaned and raised on a
desert
> island in the South Seas, with no influence from his biological parents'
> culture whatsoever. Chances are good that he WON'T grow up finding
English
> easier to pronounce without some outside influence, and that he WON'T have
some
> mysterious craving for tea and scones! The same goes for religion; this
child
> WON'T feel some instinctive rightness about Woden--or about the Anglican
Church
> for that matter--the first time he's exposed to such things. For him, the
> culture in which he was *raised* is the "right" frame of reference. He
has
> *learned* to be part of a non-English culture and would find it hard to
live
> and think like an Englishman from then on.
Those things are cultural, there is no doubt; but religion is something that
is felt in the heart, not in a culture. Cultures can be based around
religions, but the inverse is very difficult to maintain. A prime example of
a culture based around religion is the Mormons in Utah. The culture of the
small towns there is unique to the small-town mindset of the Mormon areas:
if you aren't related to someone in the area, then you don't belong, no
matter how long you've lived there.
Religion is a method of interpreting the universe; it's got nothing to do
with culture, but on perception. And perception has as much to do with
culture as the colour of your eyes. There are few things that can be
extrapolated from culture where religion is concerned; mainly, religion is a
vehicle for controlling the masses, and is not consistent with cultural
values whatsoever. Asatru, on the other hand, seeks to free the minds of
those who choose to claim it as their religion, and there is no set "leader"
or "layman". We are all equals, whether or not you have chosen to take the
Oath of the Gothar.
Being a Goği, I am responsible for looking after the folk. I am not,
however, responsible for their actions. If I give them some advice, they are
under no requirement to follow it, nor is there an expectation of payment. I
merely promised that I'd help where I could in any way that I could, and
that I wouldn't accept the idea that our folk could be controlled.
I am, however, aware that not all people are willing to accept that there
isn't a leader, and so a few of the assemblies have adopted a sort of "first
among equals" called the Alsherjargoği in order to meet the necessary
requirements for interfaith discussion... and so on.
To sum up quickly and come to the point, if I call a god "Odin" or "Wotan"
or "God" or "Tree" or "Father" or "Son of a Bitch" it's all the same thing:
it is the masculine energies within the universe, and to follow that energy
is to follow that god no matter what the moniker.
We don't "worship" our gods... they kinda take that as an insult, in many
cases. We instead honor them and recognize their doings, and we accept them
as brothers and sisters. We can work with them just as much as they can work
with us. The difference is that they know a Hel of a lot more.
As for your tagline...
> _Siğr ok froği oss saman binda!_
Nice tagline... do you live this yourself?
Moron.
Askr
>
> A modern adaptation of the pre-Christian religion practiced by various
ancient
> peoples in Northern Europe.
I would accept this as a consice and accurate statement of what Asatru is.
:)
> >Where and when did the modern reconstruction of Asatru originate?
>
> Although it's generally accepted that the Asatru revival began in the
early
> 1960s, the exact *location* of that first revival is uncertain; various
people
> around the world have claimed that honor.
Well, from the 4 years of research that I've been doing on the subject, I
would have to disagree. The actual revival started some time in the 1890's
by an unidentified group of people in Iceland. In the 1920's another group
in southern Scotland or northern England(the Odinic Rite) was discovered,
but is largely believed (no matter what they claim) that these people were
not part of a "revival" movement.
> >What does it mean to be an Asatruar?
>
> It means accepting a range of theology, ethics, philosophy, and ritual
practice
> associated with that adaptation--to the exclusion of those in other
traditions.
Er... sorta. It means accepting yourself for whom you are, and not for what
everyone else expects, but offers (as a guideline) the Nine Virtues. If
others in other traditions wish to add their own methodologies and concepts
to Asatru, then it becomes something other than Asatru, just as if you add
instant breakfast drink to water, it ceases to be water.
> > What are the [moral] teachings of the Asatru tradition?
They are actually the Nine Virtues. The ones below are tripe and without
basis in Asatru. However, before I go into the Nine Virtues, I'd like to
respond to the values expressed by Ingeborg.
> There are several values I'd think of as typically Heathen:
"Typically" Heathen? I've never met a Heathen who was typical of anything,
even one another, excepting the fact that they all claim to be of an Earth
religion. Even the name Asatru is not claimed by all who practice it. In
many places, it's called "Forn Seš" or "Hedensk Seš".
> --Loyalty (to the gods, to family, to like-minded others regardless of
their
> ethnic or genetic background)
Yes! Loyalty is one of the Nine Virtues. It is expressed more commonly,
however, as "Troth", which connotes more of a trust placed in these people
and being worthy of their trust. There is a high degree of loyalty, where
applicable.
> --Courage in adversity (but not recklessness)
Good! Courage is another of the Nine Virtues, and is usually expressed as
such. It takes courage to face one's own fears, and it takes courage to live
the other eight virtues.
> --Acceptance of fate (when it cannot be changed by human effort)
Er... no. There is no basis for this idea anywhere in Nordic or Germanic
literature. However, it was commonly believed that a person, though free to
act, had only a certain measure of time from the day they were born until
the day they died. You could change the course of your fate, but not the
timing. People can and do indeed change things quite often. And we don't
have to like it if our plans go awry.
> --Honor (breaking one's word earns a bad reputation both with the gods and
with
> humans)
Another of the Nine Virtues. Honor is perhaps the most important concept to
Asatru, as without honor, there can be no virtue. It is the virtue of being
virtuous.
> --Interdependence (among members of the community, but also between humans
and
> gods; willingness to give and help when that is genuinely needed)
> --Self-reliance (not asking for help *needlessly* or taking advantage when
> someone is able to set a situation right himself)
Er... these are mutually exclusive. While self-reliance is among the Nine
Virtues, interdependence is not. We are a fiercely independent people, and
we do not often need a society to tell us what is right or wrong. We need a
society to function as a people, but the concept of interdependence
expressed is more of a concept of sacrifice. It's not a value held by the
people; it is simply something that works. One must give in order to
receive.
> --Respect for history, learning, and tradition (not only in a
> theological/ritual context, but generally)
While this is a commonly-held respect, it is not among the Nine Virtues. We
hold that our ancestors are important people: where would we be without
them? All of them succeeded in having offspring, and are therefore largely
successful as ancestors. :)
The remaining five virtues are (in no particular order):
Freedom/Liberty (I'm still struggling with the wording on this one)
Frith (keeping the peace when necessary)
Hospitality (we treat our guests well)
Industriousness (we are always doing something)
Perseverence (we're not a bunch of quitters)
If you would like a well-done presentation of the nine virtues, please let
me suggest the following web site: http://eagle.eagleut.com/nine.htm It's
part of the Eagles Kindred of Utah web page.
> > What are the spiritual aspects of Asatru (if any)?
>
> Developing a sense of the gods' and lesser wights' reality--their workings
in
> our lives and in the larger world. For those who see "patron deities" as
> important, I would add: developing a close friendship with one or more
> deities, and following their example when it does not conflict with basic
> morals.
This is well-reasoned philosophy, and I happen to agree. However, we are not
"lesser" than the gods; they are simply farther along the path than we are.
I yell and curse at my patron all day long when I'm having a bad day,
especially when it's something that they were playing games with me over. It
keeps them amused. :)
> >Is Asatru one religon, or, a group of traditions (like Druidry or Wicca)?
>
> One tradition, with several variations based on regional cultures and on
the
> relative importance of the values discussed before. (Some Heathens place
> greater emphasis on re-creating the exact cultural context of their faith;
> others claim that this is unnecessary. Some see the "warrior ethic" as
> encouraging physical conflict; others apply it more figuratively and
broadly.
> But *all* these people are Heathen, as long as their theology and ethics
> generally come from the same historical sources.)
This is well-reasoned and accurate, although somewhat brief.
> >What specifically, is the link (if any) between Asatru and white
> >supremicism/racism ?
>
> Some people have misused the Germanic imagery and origins of Asatru to
justify
> racism and white supremacy. However, our lore never implies that these
> attitudes were part of historical Germanic religious teachings--or that
the
> gods endorse such an attitude among their modern followers.
The use of runes by certain white supremacist groups has led to the adoption
of anti-hate legislation attempts regarding their use. Hitler killed our
people for practicing the old religion just as surely as he killed the Jews.
There were special adaptations that were, at one point, adapted for the
German religion that Hitler was attempting to create, but these were
discarded due to angry protests by some of the wealthy and
politically-affluent people in Germany who were particularly Christian and
didn't want influence from pre-Christian times polluting their ideals.
Christianity, after all, was the religion that afforded them the most
control over the people.
> >What does the Asatru tradition bring to those who follow it ?
>
> Several things, actually:
>
> --A set of reasonable, clear moral guidelines with a greater emphasis on
> consequences here and now, than on an afterlife.
Yes, to an extent. Clarity is not something I have ever heard attributed to
the Nine Virtues, though.
> --An explanation for those parts of life and human experience which can't
be
> reduced to scientific laws or statistics.
As does any religion... but then again, our interpretations make more sense
to us, and are therefore superior to the believers of the religion, as
opposed to those who practice other traditions.
> --A connection with a culture to which we feel a close personal
attachment,
> whether or not that attachment is based on family ties.
We do this because the kindreds are our families: this close familiality is
based on the fact that we are all generally alone. So, like wolves, we form
a close-knit pack that may or may not include familial ties. That's the
present. As far as the past is concerned, we don't know enough about it to
even attempt to re-create it, so anything we try to create will be new
anyway.
Just thought I'd try to clear things up like mud. :)
Askr
"Larry Johnson" <celtic...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tANs7.21360$Hx1.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Yes, I agree with you Dirk, Llewellyn seems to publish any "New Age"
> claptrap to gain a Dollar or two. I have paged through a mountain of
books
> to find good ones, and they are few and far between.
>
They used to make some really good foundation-level books for people to
learn from, but now everyone and his dog is rushing to publish. If it will
sell, Llewllyn (being a business) will sell it. They're in the business of
making a living, not providing truths. Where religion is concerned, nothing
is forbidden because the universe is a lie.
Maybe I could write some fancy-schmancy book and make a few bucks...?
Hrmmmm.... You know, I think I might. :)
Ingeborg S. Norden
anything as complex as a whole theology or culture. "Tradition and lore", as
my Old Norse tagline put it, is the real essence that links Heathens as
Heathens. Not DNA, not skin color, not even a common birthplace. And that
tradition, that lore, accepts that the gods are GODS. Not generic "masculine
principles" or "natural forces" (that sounds like a bizarre cross between
Jungian psychology and Wicca--not like Asatru at all!)...but GODS.
Old Norse had generic words for "essence" and "energy" and "manhood"; but our
lore never described the Ęsir and Vanir in those terms. The lore also shows
that people *worshiped* those beings, and saw them as individual personal
entities who could interact with humans as humans do with each other. And no,
"worship" does not imply boot-licking or treating the gods like dictators who
demand specific words and acts in their presence. The Anglo-Saxon roots of
that word simply imply acknowledging the gods' *worthiness* of
respect--something with which most Heathens find nothing wrong.
I may not have a fancy priestly title to back up my assertions, but I have a
good liberal-arts education that covered several subjects--some directly
related to Germanic culture and religion, others not. I also have the manners
not to call people insulting names in a public forum, no matter how strongly I
disagree with them.
From my own studies of biology, psychology and sociology I see no evidence for
a human "genetic memory" detailed enough to include religious beliefs, or to be
specialized by ethnic groups. From my studies of ancient Scandinavian history
and literature, I see no evidence that the Norsemen believed in that kind of
memory either. The word they used for religion is the same word (_sišr_) used
for other "traditions" which have to be *taught* and *learned* as part of a
culture.
Without that learning process, we wouldn't have a religion--the only thing
genes can encode is "generic human" behaviors that any child raised away from
civilization still has. (Gods know, I read case studies of children like those
in my sociology classes!) So I stand by my earlier assertions--Old Norse motto
and all.
Not "blood and soil"...not "faith, folk, family"...but "tradition and lore".
That is THE bottom line without which Asatru ceases to be Asatru.
Askr
encode
> anything as complex as a whole theology or culture. "Tradition and lore",
as
> my Old Norse tagline put it, is the real essence that links Heathens as
> Heathens. Not DNA, not skin color, not even a common birthplace. And
that
> tradition, that lore, accepts that the gods are GODS. Not generic
"masculine
> principles" or "natural forces" (that sounds like a bizarre cross between
> Jungian psychology and Wicca--not like Asatru at all!)...but GODS.
On the contrary, ancestral memory may encode such complex things as skill
aptitudes and thus could account for conformity to a belief system. While it
is true that it would by far be in the recessive, the genes that account for
the inner workings of the brain have yet to be entirely decoded. The terms I
used were generic for use in explaining something to someone. They are not
"Asatru" terms, but are instead philosophical terms that may be used in
general to explain the basics of why a person might choose to believe a
certain way. I reiterate: the gods are combinations of universal energies
not dissiimilar to human beings, though certainly not necessarily human
(Jotun, for example). The real essense that links Heathens as Heathens is a
belief in a system, and has little to do with words in some dusty tome or
boring sermons by elders to youngers. And that belief cannot POSSIBLY be
quantifiable as words or teachings, as belief is independent of reality.
> Old Norse had generic words for "essence" and "energy" and "manhood"; but
our
> lore never described the Ęsir and Vanir in those terms. The lore also
shows
> that people *worshiped* those beings, and saw them as individual personal
> entities who could interact with humans as humans do with each other. And
no,
> "worship" does not imply boot-licking or treating the gods like dictators
who
> demand specific words and acts in their presence. The Anglo-Saxon roots
of
> that word simply imply acknowledging the gods' *worthiness* of
> respect--something with which most Heathens find nothing wrong.
The lore shows that they were honored, sacrificed to, and seen as brothers.
They were brothers and sisters on one hand, and elders to learn from on the
other. And worship, no matter your protest, does imply the boot-licking
variety of abeyance to a god's every word. One does not worship Odin; one
follows his teachings. One does not worship Thor; one emulates his demeanor.
One does not even worship Freya; one merely honors her and asks that she do
the same. The word 'worship', regardless of its original intent, means
something entirely different today. This concept may be difficult for you to
grasp, so here's an example: the word 'nice'.
Way back when the Romans had control of Caledonia (now the northern parts of
the UK), they decided that they wanted their new subjects to learn the
language that they themselves spoke, and so they taught it to them. The
people, noting the lack of apparent sentience of the much-inbred and
exceedingly wet royalty, starting calling them na ce(pronounced "nah seh"):
not sentient. The word eventually got shortened to the word "nice", as a
descriptor for the rich but stupid people in charge. But by this time, they
were noticing all of the really cool objects that these rich dummies had,
and they were called "nice things", naturally. The term "nice" has never
meant the same thing, as originally it did, since that time.
So, you see, word meaning changes over time. The word "worship" does indeed
connote boot-licking and grovelling before someone. This is true in cases of
hero-worship, worshiping a potential lover, and worship of gods. Thus, it is
inadequate as a descriptor for what it is that we do. We honor the gods, we
don't worship them.
> I may not have a fancy priestly title to back up my assertions, but I have
a
> good liberal-arts education that covered several subjects--some directly
> related to Germanic culture and religion, others not. I also have the
manners
> not to call people insulting names in a public forum, no matter how
strongly I
> disagree with them.
Noticed that, did you? Let's just say that many of your assertions leave me
with that concept about you, and that it was a statement of my own opinion,
and leave it at that, shall we? And you're not the only one here who is well
educated. I just happen to be a little more honest and direct in my
expression of my feelings (though not always accurate in my choices of
words), but that does not mean that I'm better.
It just means that I felt your logic slipping a LOT toward the end of that
last post of yours (the one to which I responded before this one).
> From my own studies of biology, psychology and sociology I see no evidence
for
> a human "genetic memory" detailed enough to include religious beliefs, or
to be
> specialized by ethnic groups. From my studies of ancient Scandinavian
history
> and literature, I see no evidence that the Norsemen believed in that kind
of
> memory either. The word they used for religion is the same word (_sišr_)
used
> for other "traditions" which have to be *taught* and *learned* as part of
a
> culture.
There is not *yet* evidence to back up the concept of traditional memory,
but then why would we have talents and aptitudes and not the capacity for
retention of a belief system. And mind you, I am not specifying Asatru here:
Hindu and Shinto are just as valid for that statement.
The answer is that the religions were created around the mindsets of the
people from these regions, and were not methods of trying to modify a
person's thought processes. Religions may need to be taught and learned, but
systems of belief do not. They are simply there.
> Without that learning process, we wouldn't have a religion--the only thing
> genes can encode is "generic human" behaviors that any child raised away
from
> civilization still has. (Gods know, I read case studies of children like
those
> in my sociology classes!) So I stand by my earlier assertions--Old Norse
motto
> and all.
"Generic human behaviours" like an automatic skill in hunting, fishing,
marksmanship, computer programming, or whatever? "Generic human behaviors"
like schizoid disorders? "Generic human behaviors" like linguistic or
scientific aptitudes? These are all combinations of nature and nurture, just
as any complex behavior is. There needs to be something there, however,
before it takes.
> Not "blood and soil"...not "faith, folk, family"...but "tradition and
lore".
> That is THE bottom line without which Asatru ceases to be Asatru.
True, but where did the traditional truths taught to us in the Eddas and
Sagas come from originally? Were they simply made up, or is there some
factual basis? Empirically, religious belief cannot be measured. It is
simply a factor of humanity that comes from within, independent of religion
or society. Religion itself is the product of tradition and teaching, but
the frame of mind necessary for that religion to take hold within must come
from somewhere, or we would all be the same religion today.
Fornr oc sagar, fornr oc eddar, allar er eg souls blošr.
Ingeborg S. Norden
>aptitudes and thus could account for conformity to a belief system.
It's this line of thinking that leads to assumptions like "all blacks are
natural athletes or musicians--they're born with an edge in those areas".
Assuming ancestral memory can lead down a slippery slope towards racism, and
away from treating people as individuals. (Some blacks are born without those
talents; some have other genetic influences--like deafness or a paralyzing
disease--which could override them; and some have great abilities in completely
unrelated areas which could NOT be credited to ancestral memory.)
Extending the idea of innate ability to practicing a specific faith leads to
even more dangerous thnking. Would we label an accomplished black
mathematician or doctor a "race traitor" for not becoming a musician or an
athlete instead, for denying his genetic edge? Hardly. By the same token, we
shouldn't assume that a person of Germanic descent who willingly follows a
religion (say, Buddhism) whose values differ radically from those of Asatru is
betraying some mystical ethnic essence.
Ancestry is not the be-all and end-all of our faith; the Folkish movement's
interpretation of kinship as described in the lore is MUCH too broad IMO.
Genealogies do appear in the sagas, and close-knit families were clearly a
cultural norm--but this sense of closeness and ancestral unity was *not*
extended to entire ethnic groups. Family guardian spirits were part of older
Heathen beliefs, but they were clearly the guardians of small extended
families--not of all people with a common culture and homeland. If the
Germanic peoples believed otherwise, I'm sure that stories about the origins of
whole ethnic groups would have survived in our lore; but no such stories are to
be found.
Furthermore, followers of modern Asatru should realize that our society is no
longer tribal. The gods still exist, the ethical standards they set still
exist; but Northern European society is no longer structured as it was before
Christianity came. Heathens shouldn't pretend to have a tribal culture when
that clearly isn't the case today--a religion that ignores social realities
won't survive for very long.
By now, you're probably accusing me of contradicting my earlier assertions
about "tradition and lore". It's true that those two things are most vital to
Heathenry as a faith--without them, the "shared belief system" you mention
would never have been transmitted. But no society's traditions and teachings
have ever been preserved with 100% accuracy; all cultures evolve, discarding
ideas that no longer work for a group in favor of ideas that fit their new
reality. The question then becomes: "Which parts of the older system are
worth keeping, and which aren't?"
>While it
>is true that it would by far be in the recessive, the genes that account for
>the inner workings of the brain have yet to be entirely decoded
Even then, I'm fairly sure that AT MOST the brain might be hard-coded to
believe "our group differs from theirs" and "a spiritual reality exists" in
the most general terms. More specific details would not be inherited, but
learned; and such learning would have to be expressed in words, or at the very
least in concrete images.
Speaking of words--I'm quite aware that their meaning also changes over time,
sometimes unintentionally. But even among those who don't know or care about
etymology, the same word won't always have the same connotation to people. Not
everyone today associates "worship" with groveling, blind submission. Some
still use the term but have very different relationships with their heroes,
lovers, and gods. Heathens who argue over whether or not our gods are
"worshiped", nine times out of ten, are just wrangling over semantics: I
myself admit falling into that trap.
>The answer is that the religions were created around the mindsets of the
>people from these regions, and were not methods of trying to modify a
>person's thought processes. Religions may need to be taught and learned, but
>systems of belief do not. They are simply there.
Specific belief systems (I'm talking values, not theology here) aren't
inherited biologically; at most, I'd say genes would predispose us to *develop*
them over time, just as they'd predispose us to develop languages. Humans may
be biologically programmed to learn and use SOME language, yet a newborn baby
is capable of learning the sounds and grammar of ANY language to which it is
exposed--not necessarily the one(s) spoken by its parents. Belief systems work
similarly: our genes may encode a slot into which one can be plugged in, but
someone else still has to do the plugging in (by teaching specific rules and
values). Ethnicity doesn't affect the shape of the "belief slot" at birth, any
more than it does the shape of the "language slot". A child's native values
become rigid, harder to change, only after EXPOSURE--after someone has worked
long enough at plugging specific rules (grammar for a language, ethics and
world-view for a belief system) into those slots.
> These are all combinations of nature and nurture, just
>as any complex behavior is. There needs to be something there, however,
>before it takes.
Exactly the point of my slot analogy. We're born, at most, with a sense that
people ought to believe something (just as we're born with a sense that people
ought to communicate). We've got a finite number of biological tools to
experience and interpret life with. Beyond that, however, "tradition and lore"
take over where genes leave off.
>True, but where did the traditional truths taught to us in the Eddas and
>Sagas come from originally? Were they simply made up, or is there some
>factual basis?
The Germanic peoples arrived at their conclusions about the spiritual world in
the same way everyone else did: they had specific experiences with their
environment. If some phenomenon couldn't be traced to an obvious physical
cause, they concluded that some supernatural being must cause it. Because the
world includes many such phenomena--which aren't always interrelated--there
must be *many* such beings in control. And because people had developed a
culture with a specific set of values over time, the beings who control the
world must like things that way.
Were genetics involved in reaching that conclusion? Only in a very broad way:
people inherited the ability to reason, and the need to develop cultures and
beliefs which fit their environment. Beyond that--it's all learning, by trial
and error, which rules work and which don't.
Apparently, the Germanic peoples discovered that the theology and values we
consider "Heathen" worked best for them at that time and place...so they passed
the whole system on from one generation to the next. But that decision didn't
alter the children's genes; it just established "tradition and lore" which
still had to be plugged in where genetics had coded a slot. And the changes,
the local variations in our lore? Those came about because people either made
mistakes, or saw that the old set of rules didn't fit the world they lived in
now: children were still being born with empty "belief slots", but different
material was being plugged in. Most of us still consciously decide *how much*
of older Germanic ethics and theology applies to our modern life--it's our turn
to shape tradition now, to decide which parts are essential and which are not.
Dirk Bruere
"Ingeborg S. Norden" <rune...@aol.combatspam> wrote in message
> >On the contrary, ancestral memory may encode such complex things as skill
> >aptitudes and thus could account for conformity to a belief system.
>
> It's this line of thinking that leads to assumptions like "all blacks are
> natural athletes or musicians--they're born with an edge in those areas".
In some specific cases this is generally true. For example Blacks have the
calf muscle higher on the leg than Whites, which would give a small
advantage in running. Their body fat distribution, OTOH, tends to be
disadvantageous with respect to swimming. And let's not forget that the
pygmy races of Africa are not going to win any highjump prizes, or compete
particularly well in basketball when facing the Masai.
> Assuming ancestral memory can lead down a slippery slope towards racism,
and
> away from treating people as individuals. (Some blacks are born without
those
> talents; some have other genetic influences--like deafness or a paralyzing
> disease--which could override them; and some have great abilities in
completely
> unrelated areas which could NOT be credited to ancestral memory.)
Yet societies are shaped by physical attributes and attitudes. It doesn't
take much of a deviation from the mean to have significant impact.
> Extending the idea of innate ability to practicing a specific faith leads
to
> even more dangerous thnking. Would we label an accomplished black
Not the ability, the inclination.
> mathematician or doctor a "race traitor" for not becoming a musician or an
> athlete instead, for denying his genetic edge? Hardly. By the same
token, we
> shouldn't assume that a person of Germanic descent who willingly follows a
> religion (say, Buddhism) whose values differ radically from those of
Asatru is
> betraying some mystical ethnic essence.
> Ancestry is not the be-all and end-all of our faith; the Folkish
movement's
> interpretation of kinship as described in the lore is MUCH too broad IMO.
> Genealogies do appear in the sagas, and close-knit families were clearly a
> cultural norm--but this sense of closeness and ancestral unity was *not*
> extended to entire ethnic groups. Family guardian spirits were part of
older
They were extended to tribal groups, and today our notion of 'tribal group'
has expaned quite a bit.
> Heathen beliefs, but they were clearly the guardians of small extended
> families--not of all people with a common culture and homeland. If the
> Germanic peoples believed otherwise, I'm sure that stories about the
origins of
> whole ethnic groups would have survived in our lore; but no such stories
are to
> be found.
When one lives amongst people who all look pretty similar race will not be
an issue.
> Furthermore, followers of modern Asatru should realize that our society is
no
> longer tribal. The gods still exist, the ethical standards they set still
I'd say it is as tribal as ever, from patriotism down to street gangs. The
nature of the tribe has changed, is all.
> exist; but Northern European society is no longer structured as it was
before
> Christianity came. Heathens shouldn't pretend to have a tribal culture
when
> that clearly isn't the case today--a religion that ignores social
realities
> won't survive for very long.
There is most definately a tribal structure to most old nations.
> By now, you're probably accusing me of contradicting my earlier assertions
> about "tradition and lore". It's true that those two things are most
vital to
> Heathenry as a faith--without them, the "shared belief system" you mention
> would never have been transmitted. But no society's traditions and
teachings
> have ever been preserved with 100% accuracy; all cultures evolve,
discarding
> ideas that no longer work for a group in favor of ideas that fit their new
> reality. The question then becomes: "Which parts of the older system are
> worth keeping, and which aren't?"
And what is worth grafting on, and what isn't.
That's the crux, isn't it?
> >While it
> >is true that it would by far be in the recessive, the genes that account
for
> >the inner workings of the brain have yet to be entirely decoded
> Even then, I'm fairly sure that AT MOST the brain might be hard-coded to
> believe "our group differs from theirs" and "a spiritual reality exists"
in
> the most general terms. More specific details would not be inherited, but
> learned; and such learning would have to be expressed in words, or at the
very
> least in concrete images.
Read some Dawkins, and sociobiology.
> values). Ethnicity doesn't affect the shape of the "belief slot" at
birth, any
> more than it does the shape of the "language slot". A child's native
values
I'm not sure that is true at all.
Aggression, for example, seems to have a genetic component. I would expect
agressive people to be differently pre-disposed to some religions compared
to 'born pacifists'. Asatru v Buddhism?
FFF
Dirk
Bertie the Bunyip
news:gSdt7.2277$j66.5...@news.uswest.net:
IOW, no niggers.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
news:W6ft7.2288$j66.5...@news.uswest.net:
Hitler?
Bertie
Askr
> > and Sagas come from originally?
>
> Hitler?
Why don't you read a few for yourself, Bertie? They by far predate Hitler,
and Hitler *NEVER* taught anything I would call traditional wisdom... he was
about as far from wise as they come.
And so are you.
Askr
>
> IOW, no niggers.
IOW, Bertie hasn't got the sense that rocks have.
Bertie the Bunyip
news:82Rt7.1583$sY.4...@news.uswest.net:
>> > Just thought I'd try to clear things up like mud.
>>
>> IOW, no niggers.
>
> IOW, Bertie hasn't got the sense that rocks have.
>
Aww, now you're just being mean?
Aren't you supposed to be ignoring me, BTW? Aren't you afrainf the other
nazis won't like you anymore?
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
news:71Rt7.1582$sY.4...@news.uswest.net:
Tch tch. Won't the other boys in the Bund be unhappy with this heresy?
>
> And so are you.
>
Nah, I said you were first times a thousand!
So there.
Bertie
Chris Bru
I dont know who you are or what you stand for but for the past 2 months
I have read alot of your antagonizing post and just ignored them. You
just carry on and carry on. I am Asatru and I am not a dumbass nazi or
neonazi or any of the other labels given to uneducated white people who
let their mouth show how uneducated they are.
I belong to a kindred that promotes family and well being through
kinship. We are not hate mongers the thing I cant understand about
people like you is that you will address any problem with sarcastic
remarks or try to piss someone off with insults but you offer no
solution. It reminds me of my evangelist father who could find
everything wrong with the world but no solution is offered. This is
America and still a free country by a few standards so say what you will
but understand no matter what you believe or are convinced of not all
Asatruar are nazis. Hitler dabbled in the occult if you read your
history after his curiosity was sated he sent the head of his rune guild
to the gas chamber. Hitler also had German, Aryan, White whatever other
term you can dig up if they opposed him they were killed yes he also had
the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and just about anything and anybody else
that he didnt approve of killed. That is the goal of a socialist it
really isnt any different than a communist. We as asatruar promote
knowledge of our past to prevent at least on our end letting it happen
again.
To be in the Klu Klux Klan you have to be a white christian. To be in a
gang in the city you have to usually be of the ethinticity of the gang I
live in Phoenix most gangs stick to their own and no one is out calling
them hate mongers. Rap music played even on the radio talks of killing
"whitey" and I havent heard you mentioning that. Hate will always be
but that doesnt mean that everyone hates. So sit behind the screen and
type and mock and so on and so on but just try to think of a solution to
the problem instead of just adding to it all the time.
Hail the Gods of the North
Chris A. Bru
Falcon Kindred
Warder
Bonnie Lynn
"Dirk Bruere" <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hYMs7.5118$zu1.7...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> There is also something of a stigma attached to calling Asatru or Odinism
> (when they don't overlap) 'Northern practices' or 'Northern Tradition'. It
> implies an eclecticism that purists don't like.
>
> Asatru and Odinism are quite specific religions.
> 'Northern' can refer to any ragbag of Wiccatru slung together to sell a
book
> to suckers.
> 'Llewellyn' comes to mind.
>
> FFF
> Dirk
>
>
Ok, point taken. Will be more careful in future. Sorry for any offense.
Dirk Bruere
>
> > There is also something of a stigma attached to calling Asatru or
Odinism
> > (when they don't overlap) 'Northern practices' or 'Northern Tradition'.
It
> > implies an eclecticism that purists don't like.
> > Asatru and Odinism are quite specific religions.
> > 'Northern' can refer to any ragbag of Wiccatru slung together to sell a
> book
> > to suckers.
> > 'Llewellyn' comes to mind.
> Ok, point taken. Will be more careful in future. Sorry for any offense.
> Bonnie
Not so much offensive, as the fact that some might not take you seriously.
FFF
Dirk
Bertie the Bunyip
611.iap.bryant.webtv.net:
> Bertie
> I dont know who you are or what you stand for but for the past 2 months
> I have read alot of your antagonizing post and just ignored them. You
> just carry on and carry on. I am Asatru and I am not a dumbass nazi or
> neonazi or any of the other labels given to uneducated white people who
> let their mouth show how uneducated they are.
> I belong to a kindred that promotes family and well being through
> kinship. We are not hate mongers the thing I cant understand about
> people like you is that you will address any problem with sarcastic
> remarks or try to piss someone off with insults but you offer no
> solution. It reminds me of my evangelist father who could find
> everything wrong with the world but no solution is offered. This is
> America and still a free country by a few standards so say what you will
> but understand no matter what you believe or are convinced of not all
> Asatruar are nazis. Hitler dabbled in the occult if you read your
> history after his curiosity was sated he sent the head of his rune guild
> to the gas chamber. Hitler also had German, Aryan, White whatever other
> term you can dig up if they opposed him they were killed yes he also had
> the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and just about anything and anybody else
> that he didnt approve of killed. That is the goal of a socialist it
> really isnt any different than a communist.
Jesus wept, do you people have any lower limit to your stupidity?
Bertie
Odin Wulf
_
Kavar
Odin Wulf
>It means accepting yourself for whom you are, and not for what
>everyone else expects, but offers (as a guideline) the Nine Virtues.
Just to state, the nine Virtues are not part of the tradtional practices ...
they are a ... modern guideline .... I agree with them, but the Vritues are NOT
required; and not all kindreds acknowledge them. The ones you listed, infact,
aren't even the ones i'm used to seeing. You listed:
-Loyality/Troth
-Courage
-Honor
-Self Reliance
-Freedom/Liberty
-Frith
-Hospitality
-Industriousness
-Perseverence
Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity - (same as loyality/Troth, as it relates to Fidelity with the
Gods)
Discipline
Hospitality
Industriousness
Self Reliance
Perserverance
Also, you stated in responce to "There are several values I'd think of as
typically Heathen:"
>"Typically" Heathen? I've never met a Heathen who was typical of anything,
>even one another, excepting the fact that they all claim to be of an Earth
>religion. Even the name Asatru is not claimed by all who practice it. In
>many places, it's called "Forn Seð" or "Hedensk Seð".
But before you stated in responce to that what it means to be Asatru is using
the virtues as a guideline. you state that Virtues are the common ground of
Asatru, but then state there is nothing typcial between heathens ... well,
typcial does mean common ....
As for your common of no basis for the acceptance of fate? Read the saga of
the Volsungs ... there's a part in there where the Dragonslayer states that he
cant run from Wyrd, he can only accept it. We accept our Wyrd... if it cant be
changed, we accept it. If it is our Wyrd to go into battle, do we move to
Canada to avoid the draft? What Heathen do you know that would do that? Does
Odin run from Ragnarok, fully KNOWING he is to die from Fenrir? yes, maybe we
CAN change things .... yes, we can change our lives, we dont accept things like
that, but try to better ourselves. But, it doesn't matter if we live or die; we
ALL die .... what matters is how we LIVE, and HOW we die. Do we die a coward,
running from spears and swords to have the pains of old age dog us? or do we
stand boldy when confronted with opposition, knowing that we WILL succeed (and
if not, agh, we all have to die SOME day ...).
Kavar
Askr wrote:
> many places, it's called "Forn Seð" or "Hedensk Seð".
root
"Bertie the Bunyip" <d@dd.d> wrote in message
news:Xns912AB1...@64.154.60.171...
By your definition Bertie, this *is* already the case. Is it not true that
westerners already dominate the world? There is nothing to be gained by
"restoring the viking" as you put it - the "viking" is already _there_, and
has been for quite some time (since about 1500AD).
So what now?
If "the viking" as you put it, were to get rid of everyone else, who would
"the viking" dominate?
Well, no-one, and it ain't never going to happen. [bad english].
The Norse/Teutonic/Anglo-Saxon bunch use harsh language, their culture
deveoped in a harsh environment - perhaps the world is a bit too sensitive
and needs to toughen up and stop crying to mom.
As a Celt, a Welsh Celt, I am fully aware about how Germanic Peoples have
f**ked us over many times. The reason - easy - they were (possibly are but
that's another argument) in a better position to do it to us, before we
could do it to them at the time. I don't feel bitter about it, it's just
life, just the way things go. The circle turns......
root
> >
> >
>
>
Paul Gooding
Urtasa spelled backward?
Chris Bru
Insults from a moron get you no where. You labeling me is like the wind
blowing. Its gonna blow and there isnt a thing anyone can do about it.
You just keep on rollin with your labels and descriptions and I think
you need to take a look in the mirror in the stupidity department I
havent see one thing you have imput that would elevate you to any better
status. I know that life is hard and it is easy to vent behind a screen
so let the wind blow.
Chris
Daniel Vuurboom en Gerry Damen
Here in the Netherlands, the people I know never use Odinism, because
this term is often used by right extremists. They use Asatru because it
is generally accepted, but prefer Northern Tradition because it is
clearer (the Vanes, the Disir, nature spirits, local Gods & Goddesses
are obviously included, whilt with Asatrue misconceptions easily are
that is is only about the Ase).
Gerry
Steven T. Hatton
From my personal perspective, the term 'Odinist' became maligned, not by
the few people who the FBI have identified as 'Odinists', but rather by the
FBI's so identifying them as such, and without qualification. Before the
FBI published the Project Megiddo report I accepted the term 'Odinist' to
describe my personal religious focus. I have no involvement with any
political or religious organization. The only participation I have with
Ásatrú, Heathenism, Odinism, etc., is here on a.r.a, a few messages posted
to a_n_a, and a few 'pen pals'. I had no idea there were people of the ilk
the FBI describes as 'Odinist' calling themselves 'Odinists'. I'm still
not convinced the people thus described had any deep involvement with the
Gods. The only thing I take to be probable is that they may have used
Odin's name at some time.
In my mind, to allow the term 'Odinism' to be taken to only apply to
terrorists, is to allow Odin to be characterized as the patron of
terrorists. (The whole 'Right-wing extremists/Left-wing extremist'
paradigm is bullsh!t, IMHO) The way I see things, Odin is a living,
dynamic personality who is capable of learing from His past mistakes and
changing His behavior accordingly. From this perspective, we can see how
Odin could have been the patron of the blood thirsty Vikings, and not be
bound eternally to condoning or supporting such behavior. We need to keep
in mind that Odin is also the Prince of Poets.
Hail to Odin!
--
Með frjálsu, Steven
What is Truth? Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside
from Truth I could keep to the Truth and leave God. - Meister Eckhart
Manny Olds
> dynamic personality who is capable of learing from His past mistakes and
> changing His behavior accordingly. From this perspective, we can see how
> Odin could have been the patron of the blood thirsty Vikings, and not be
> bound eternally to condoning or supporting such behavior. We need to keep
> in mind that Odin is also the Prince of Poets.
Certainly, there are *many* modern day Odinists and Odin-followers who seem to
be doing their best to harm Odin's reputation. Only Loki is used more often as
an excuse for bad behavior in our community.
I wonder if Odin is amused or irritated. Or if it really is his idea. I know
that *I* am way bored with Mighty Warrior Wannabes who think that wolf
metaphors are the apex of eloquence and who think that bad manners demonstrate
heathen virtue. The lesson I take from the examples in the lore is that
restraint and consideration work a lot better in the long run than waving
one's Big Tool around.
And I think it would be bad for the future of the religion to let people like
that control the terms of all heathen discourse. (The tragedy of the commons
is that all participants must agree to conserve the commons, but any one can
force the destruction of the commons.)
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"I will make dim the light, I will attempt to spend my love within her.
But though I try with all my might,
She will laugh at my mighty sword, She will laugh at my mighty sword
Why must everybody laugh at my mighty sword?"
Randy Newman, "A Wedding in Cherokee County"
Steven T. Hatton
> Steven T. Hatton <hat...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>> dynamic personality who is capable of learing from His past mistakes and
>> changing His behavior accordingly. From this perspective, we can see how
>> Odin could have been the patron of the blood thirsty Vikings, and not be
>> bound eternally to condoning or supporting such behavior. We need to
>> keep in mind that Odin is also the Prince of Poets.
>
> Certainly, there are *many* modern day Odinists and Odin-followers who
> seem to be doing their best to harm Odin's reputation. Only Loki is used
> more often as an excuse for bad behavior in our community.
I really don't know. I haven't interacted with other Ásatrú people beyond
the net. I am glad I have been reserved in my associations. Though I
don't enjoy the isolation, I do enjoy the autonomy of being able to say
that all my involvements are on the table, and in public for the World to
review. The only person with whom I have shared any extensive personal
exchanges regarding Ásatrú. Even though, as we all know, Heidi is a tough
talking right wing militia type {;-)>, I don't think I've said anything
which indicates a desire to exhibit the kinds of demented behavior we see
in the FBI's report.
> I wonder if Odin is amused or irritated. Or if it really is his idea. I
> know that *I* am way bored with Mighty Warrior Wannabes who think that
> wolf metaphors are the apex of eloquence and who think that bad manners
> demonstrate heathen virtue.
I make some allowances for youth and the anxiety which comes with
transition to the Elder Way. There are many other factors which tend to
promote such undesirable behavior as well as to attract some undesirable
people. Two very important influences, I believe can be pointed back to
our detractors. Both of these seem to be the self-fulfillment of the wish
on the part of our detractors to have enemies. The first is the influence
that bad publicity can have on membership. When the FBI or other
institution characterizes us, or another group as 'terrorists' and
'white-supremecists', it seems reasonable that people of that ilk will be
attracted to what they perceive as our Way. The other influence is the
continual hatred we see spewed against us. That can only serve to do
discourage many from maintaining an interest in our Way. It is also
certain to anger many of us to some extent. This serves to promote a
militant stance in those who stand firm.
As I've said. It is my opinion that our detractors seek this very end.
They feel a need to have an enemy. It gives them a sense of meaning in
life. They either seek to be heros defending the world against evil(sic),
or they seek to be persecuted. If they can't find an enemy, they will
endeavor to create one. I attribute this mentality to the author of the
Meggido report. As regards the persecution hunger malady, I can think of
one individual in particular who seems to have a need to be persecuted, and
who regularly posts here for no other reason than to harass.
My response to this situation, in so much as I poses the self-control to
accomplish this, is to respond in a Principled way to these threats, and
not to act in the manner our detractors would have us. That is, if I
perceive the government to be acting in a way I find contrary to its
founding principles, I openly question its legitimacy in such a way as to
allow others to discuss my criticisms, and to form a consensus as to
whether the government is hostile to those principles. In other words, I
adhere to those principles regardless of whether I believe the government
is doing so. I call that Honour. When I am assailed in my character with
slander and insults, I attempt to reason with my accuser, if that fails, I
attempt to ignore the accuser, if that fails, I seek to do harm to the
person through legal means, if that fails I return to the top of this
paragraph as start over.
And yes, certain thing do hurt my feelings:
http://www.geocities.com/valfather_1066/asatru/20th-NYV-Monument.html
The person who posted the pathetic assertion that the US soldiers who died
at Antietam were Nazis is worthy of no respect in this world. It bothers
me greatly that many people cannot see how despicable his characterization
of those men is.
> The lesson I take from the examples in the
> lore is that restraint and consideration work a lot better in the long run
> than waving one's Big Tool around.
Sometimes waving ones big tool around is both enjoyable and necessary.
{;-)> Nonetheless, I take your point, and agree.
> And I think it would be bad for the future of the religion to let people
> like that control the terms of all heathen discourse. (The tragedy of the
> commons is that all participants must agree to conserve the commons, but
> any one can force the destruction of the commons.)
I'll have to give that more thought. I'm not sure exactly what the
parenthetical sentence is intended to mean.
Dirk Bruere
"Steven T. Hatton" <hat...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:3H5v7.163$iL5....@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
> > And I think it would be bad for the future of the religion to let people
> > like that control the terms of all heathen discourse. (The tragedy of
the
> > commons is that all participants must agree to conserve the commons, but
> > any one can force the destruction of the commons.)
>
> I'll have to give that more thought. I'm not sure exactly what the
> parenthetical sentence is intended to mean.
Alternatively, 'All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do
nothing'.
FFF
Dirk
Heidi Graw
>"Steven T. Hatton" <hat...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:3H5v7.163$iL5....@typhoon1.gnilink.net...
(snip)
>Steven wrote:
> Even though, as we all know, Heidi is a tough
> talking right wing militia type {;-)>,
ROTFL!!! I just splattered my drink all over my keyboard and screen!!! :-)
Yep, imagine me - shaved head, wearing camouflage, nose ring, and oversized
kick-ass boots. Eeeeehhh...is that an AK thing-a-ma-gig? Knees wobbling
under the weight of this weapon. Uhmm....how do you use this thing?? Smack
someone with it? Sheez, this sucker is heavy. Will ya carry it for me?
Batting eyelashes.... ;-)
Steven, I can see why Asatruar should be concerned about that FBI report.
Does anyone know what's become of the report that was issued clarifying the
situation? Was a response ever received?
Take care,
Heidi
Daniel Vuurboom en Gerry Damen
> In my mind, to allow the term 'Odinism' to be taken to only apply to
> terrorists, is to allow Odin to be characterized as the patron of
> terrorists.
I don't know about the report you were talking about, but then again,
the FBI is not something we Dutch take really notice of. I was referring
to using the term Odinims as a term for the whole religion, as Dirk
suggested. That has nothing to do with people being Odinist or not. My
comments was a reaction
to Dirk who said that Northern Tradition was in his opinion not as good
a name as Odinism or Asatru. Personally, I don't understand why anybody
who worships the Northern Gods would want to name his/her religion after
only one of them.
I know not many people over here in the Northern Tradition but among
them are a disproportionate number of Odinists. I agree with you about
what you said about Odin, but that was not the point of my mail.
Gerry
Dan
"Daniel Vuurboom en Gerry Damen"
> My comments was a reaction
> to Dirk who said that Northern Tradition was in his opinion not as good
> a name as Odinism or Asatru. Personally, I don't understand why anybody
> who worships the Northern Gods would want to name his/her religion after
> only one of them.
> Gerry
Hi Gerry,
I didn't read the prior posts to this, but from my understanding, a
tradition is something that has been going on for some time, several
generations or so. For many generations now, the northern people have been
practicing christianity. Therefore, would not " Northern Tradition" indicate
christianity as practiced by the northern peoples?
Regards,
Dan
Daniel Vuurboom en Gerry Damen
> I didn't read the prior posts to this, but from my understanding, a
> tradition is something that has been going on for some time, several
> generations or so. For many generations now, the northern people have been
> practicing christianity. Therefore, would not " Northern Tradition" indicate
> christianity as practiced by the northern peoples?
>
Why? If you would define Northern Tradition as including christianity of
course you are free to do so. I don't see what's the point. It would not
have any meaning for Christians, they have their own tradition, their
particular brand of christianity. They categorize themselves by their
own standards, and being of northern or any other descend is not
something which matters to them as related to their faith, nor was it
important in the faith's development. The tradition was broken by a
couple of hondreds of years, so what? We take the remnants of what is
left and carry on, building something new. The Gods aparantly like
what's happening, there is inspiration enough coming from them.
We don't know whether or not our ancestors ever used a particular word
for their religion. In this day and age most people want a name for
their faith, preferably something not too long. I'm a follower of the
Northern Gods, Godesses, Disir, Nature Spirits, Wights, ancestors etc.
is something of a mouthfull. There are a couple of terms which are in
regular use. One of them is Northern Tradition. I quite like it.
Gerry
Limey Dave
"root" <mat...@nworder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9pfn32$aug$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Hmmmm, I have a question for the celt, the Welsh Celt; Where were you born,
where were you raised and where do you live?
My guess is, you've never been "f**ked over" by any "people's" in your
life.....
Just my view though, could be wrong!
Limey Dave.
Doug Freyubrger
> "Steven T. Hatton" <hat...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> > Manny Olds wrote:
>
> > > And I think it would be bad for the future of the religion to let people
> > > like that control the terms of all heathen discourse. (The tragedy of
> the
> > > commons is that all participants must agree to conserve the commons, but
> > > any one can force the destruction of the commons.)
>
> > I'll have to give that more thought. I'm not sure exactly what the
> > parenthetical sentence is intended to mean.
>
> Alternatively, 'All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do
> nothing'.
"One rotten apple spoils the barrel" comes even closer.
Dirk Bruere
"Daniel Vuurboom en Gerry Damen" <vuur...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:3BBE0FD7...@wanadoo.nl...
> > I didn't read the prior posts to this, but from my understanding, a
> > tradition is something that has been going on for some time, several
> > generations or so. For many generations now, the northern people have
been
> > practicing christianity. Therefore, would not " Northern Tradition"
indicate
> > christianity as practiced by the northern peoples?
> >
> Why? If you would define Northern Tradition as including christianity of
> course you are free to do so. I don't see what's the point. It would not
'Northern Tradition' is simply so wide a term as to be meaningless.
It is Northern Tradition to celebrate Christmas.
It is Northern Tradition to wear warm clothes in January.
It is Northern Tradition to eat apples.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
"Doug Freyubrger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.01100...@posting.google.com...
> > > > And I think it would be bad for the future of the religion to let
people
> > > > like that control the terms of all heathen discourse. (The tragedy
of
> > the
> > > > commons is that all participants must agree to conserve the commons,
but
> > > > any one can force the destruction of the commons.)
> >
> > > I'll have to give that more thought. I'm not sure exactly what the
> > > parenthetical sentence is intended to mean.
> >
> > Alternatively, 'All it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do
> > nothing'.
>
> "One rotten apple spoils the barrel" comes even closer.
Then give up now and depart Asatru.
Because there will always be at least one.
FFF
Dirk
Bertie the Bunyip
> > > > 1. What is Asatru?
>
> Urtasa spelled backward?
Damn! It was right in front of my eyes all the time;
Bertie
aabbcc (aka running with scissors)
"Limey Dave" <david...@NoworldCRApnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:vwpv7.36856$3d2.2...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
root
"Limey Dave" <david...@NoworldCRApnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:vwpv7.36856$3d2.2...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
I was born in Bridgend, South Wales, I was brought up in Swansea, South
Wales, I live on the Gower peninsula, South Wales - OK?
> My guess is, you've never been "f**ked over" by any "people's" in your
> life.....
I was referring to the Welsh people as a nation - have look at history.
Daniel Vuurboom en Gerry Damen
> 'Northern Tradition' is simply so wide a term as to be meaningless.
> It is Northern Tradition to celebrate Christmas.
> It is Northern Tradition to wear warm clothes in January.
> It is Northern Tradition to eat apples.
>
It a christian tradition to celebrate christmas, nowadays also
celebrated by others in the western culture. One could call it a Western
tradition. In Northern Tradition they celebrate Yule.
2)Is it? seems like common sense.
3) Nope.
You don't like the term, I guessed that before. If you don't like
something come with a better alternative. And for me Asatru or Odinism
are not better.
Gerry
root
"aabbcc (aka running with scissors)" <nob...@work.org> wrote in message
news:uILv7.343$r.67...@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...
A better way to deliver that insult to me would have been.....
"Everyone knows he's a Celt, I hear them muttering the word as he walks
past." :)
root
>
>
Manny Olds
Or
"So the only reason to be polite is that cyberspace social life, like all
forms of community life, doesn't work as it is supposed to unless
participants voluntarily restrain themselves from spoiling it."
-- Miss Manners (Judith Martin)
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"All government,--indeed, every human benefit and enjoyment, every virtue
and every prudent act,--is founded on compromise and barter."
-- Edmund Burke
Dirk Bruere
The one most comonly used in Britain is 'Heathenism'.
FFF
Dirk
Dan
> > something come with a better alternative. And for me Asatru or Odinism
> > are not better.
>
> The one most comonly used in Britain is 'Heathenism'.
>
> FFF
> Dirk
That term is being used more and more in the USA also.
Dan
aabbcc (aka running with scissors)
root
> > > >
> > > coulda been typo dave.. perhaps he meant he was a Welsh Cunt
> >
> > A better way to deliver that insult to me would have been.....
> >
> > "Everyone knows he's a Celt, I hear them muttering the word as he walks
> > past." :)
> >
> > root
> >
> >
> nice retort !
It is my view that if you want to insult someone, do it with some
poetic style - that way it becomes more entertaining for those
watching, and more powerful against the person you wish to maledict.
BTW and for you info: "Cunt" is an anglo-saxon word, it was made in to
a swear word by the neo-classical revivalists in victorian times
(along with "fuck" and a few others) who didn't want to use the
'vulgar language' as they put it - they were into latin and greek.
root
Limey Dave
"aabbcc (aka running with scissors)" <nob...@work.org> wrote in message
news:uILv7.343$r.67...@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...
>
I mean, bwaaaahahawahwah!
Limey Dave.
Limey Dave
Lovely, isn't it, boyo?
>
>
>
> > My guess is, you've never been "f**ked over" by any "people's" in your
> > life.....
>
> I was referring to the Welsh people as a nation
I know, that was my point. Thanks!
- have look at history.
>
I know the history.....
Limey Dave.
Limey Dave
Limey Dave.
aabbcc (aka running with scissors)
aabbcc (aka running with scissors)
> <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > coulda been typo dave.. perhaps he meant he was a Welsh Cunt
> > >
> > > A better way to deliver that insult to me would have been.....
> > >
> > > "Everyone knows he's a Celt, I hear them muttering the word as he
walks
> > > past." :)
> > >
> > > root
> > >
> > >
> > nice retort !
>
> It is my view that if you want to insult someone, do it with some
> poetic style - that way it becomes more entertaining for those
> watching, and more powerful against the person you wish to maledict.
Haven't met Tarver or Debby yet have you !