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Heimdall and His Nine Mothers
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drose...@yahoo.com
May 11, 2012, 5:45:58 PM5/11/12
to
I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
arrange the stars in different constellations.
Different variations on this idea are being examined by me.
For instance, Heimdall may be associated with Polaris. Polaris
may be seen as watching over the universe. It also helps guide
travelers.
That leaves the question as to who the nine mothers would
be. I considered the ancient "planets", which for clarity I will
call the Wanderers. The Wanderers stay on the ecliptic plane, which
is as far from Polaris as the Vikings would be able to see.
However, there are only seven Wanderers. There could be nine stars
located near Polaris that somehow stand out as a group. My cursory
examination of star charts did not reveal a recognizable group of
nine.
Heimdall does not have to be Polaris. Maybe the Rainbow
Bridge is the Milky Way. In which case, Heimdall and his nine
mothers could be some constellation on the Milky Way. Or maybe
Heimdall is the region where the Milky Way and the ecliptic plane
cross. Then the nine mothers would be the Milky Way, the seven
Wanderers and the earth.
1) Are there any astronomical interpretations of the Nine Mothers
of Heimdall?
Maybe the story has no astronomical significance. So,
2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
arrange the stars in different constellations.
Different variations on this idea are being examined by me.
For instance, Heimdall may be associated with Polaris. Polaris
may be seen as watching over the universe. It also helps guide
travelers.
That leaves the question as to who the nine mothers would
be. I considered the ancient "planets", which for clarity I will
call the Wanderers. The Wanderers stay on the ecliptic plane, which
is as far from Polaris as the Vikings would be able to see.
However, there are only seven Wanderers. There could be nine stars
located near Polaris that somehow stand out as a group. My cursory
examination of star charts did not reveal a recognizable group of
nine.
Heimdall does not have to be Polaris. Maybe the Rainbow
Bridge is the Milky Way. In which case, Heimdall and his nine
mothers could be some constellation on the Milky Way. Or maybe
Heimdall is the region where the Milky Way and the ecliptic plane
cross. Then the nine mothers would be the Milky Way, the seven
Wanderers and the earth.
1) Are there any astronomical interpretations of the Nine Mothers
of Heimdall?
Maybe the story has no astronomical significance. So,
2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
Doug Freyburger
May 15, 2012, 12:46:35 PM5/15/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
> a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
> The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
> a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
> arrange the stars in different constellations.
Good symbolism.
>
> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
> a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
> The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
> a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
> arrange the stars in different constellations.
> 2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
That's the source I thought of.
1X2Willows
May 15, 2012, 2:05:23 PM5/15/12
to
Doug Freyburger
May 15, 2012, 2:36:23 PM5/15/12
to
Nine is also one of the words for "many". Maybe many of the Aesunir had
children and Heimdall was the descendent of them. That would make the
nine mother, grandmothers, great grandmothers. In this sense he could
be descended from most or all of the goddesses. Hybrid vigor.
1X2Willows
May 15, 2012, 3:05:46 PM5/15/12
to
On 5/15/2012 11:36 AM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> 1X2Willows wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>> 2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
>>
>>> There's a legend that on the shoreline every nineth wave is a big one.
>>> That's the source I thought of.
>>
>> "Beyond the ninth wave" is also iconic in Celtic Lore.
>
> Likely the original source. Something good to copy.
Not so sure about that. I'm a firm believer in simultaneous discovery as
> 1X2Willows wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>> 2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
>>
>>> There's a legend that on the shoreline every nineth wave is a big one.
>>> That's the source I thought of.
>>
>> "Beyond the ninth wave" is also iconic in Celtic Lore.
>
> Likely the original source. Something good to copy.
opposed to linear thinking as to "who was first and it all radiated out
from there", so the circumstance that Norse invaders met 'prey' who
essentially subscribed to the same home grown folk-philosophy wouldn't
surprise me much.
As we look way further beyond territorial limits of the time, the same
still aplies. If I'm not mistaken, the Maori of NZ have a similar
concept and please nobody suggest this is a product of acculturation.
They call the Sun "Ra", too, just like the Egyptians. No esoteric link
required. Universal 'truths' have been recognized as such all over the
globe, at different times, in different places.
> Nine is also one of the words for "many". Maybe many of the Aesunir had
> children and Heimdall was the descendent of them. That would make the
> nine mother, grandmothers, great grandmothers. In this sense he could
> be descended from most or all of the goddesses. Hybrid vigor.
where the Otherworld(s) start(s), so all reference to ancestry would
make all sense.
drose...@yahoo.com
May 15, 2012, 5:56:03 PM5/15/12
to
On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:46:35 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Heimdell could be Polaris. Now, Polaris is not precisely
located at the hub of the Northern sky. Today it is close to the
hub, but not quite on top. In ancient days, 1-2 KYA, it may have
been noticeably farther from the hub.
If one lived above or near the Arctic circle, the Northern
hub would be close to the highest point in the sky. Polaris would
circle the hub. It would be a small circle, but noticeable if one
watched for a long time.
"Asgard" could symbolize the region of sky inside the little
circle. Polaris can be said to guard this little region of sky,
just as Heimdell guards Asgard.
Anything on the ecliptic plane (i.e., the Zodiac) could be the
"Mothers". The 7 Wanderers, which are on the ecliptic plane, could
represent 7 of the Mothers.
The ecliptic plane would be seen as being very close to the
horizon. To a sailor in the North, the ecliptic plane would be
on the ocean. The Wanderers would be right on the horizon, just coming
out of the ocean. So the Wanderers may be seen as the source of waves.
In other words, they could be the giant daughters of Aegir, sometimes
pictures as the source of waves.
The Milky Way could be seen as Bifrost, the Rainbow Bridge.
The Milky Way is perpendicular to the ecliptic plane. Therefore,
a Northern sailor would see the Milky Way climbing out of the sea
toward the North star. It would appear as though the Milky Way was
"pointing" toward the Northern hub.
Thus, the Milky Way would appear as a "bridge" from the
ecliptic plane (the ocean) to the Northern hub (i.e., Asgard).
Polaris (i.e., Heimdell) is all that stands between the Joten
of the ocean and the Aesir of Asgard.
Of course, Bifrost could also be the Aurora Borealis. These
curtains of excited plasma have all the colors of the rainbow.
They dance around Polaris, which would be the highest star in the
sky. The Aurora Borealis could also be the "Nine Mothers".
This imagery may not have originated with sailors. I am taking the point of view of an Arctic sailor looking to the sky. However, stellar
navigation may have been more important to some inland nomads then it
was to Viking sailors. After all, the sailors had ocean currents and
shorelines to provide some directional guides.
Inland nomads may have used the Heimdell story to remember
celestial signposts.A Sami herding his rheindeer in Lapland would
not have shorelines or ocean currents to get around. Neither would
herders in Siberia or the Ukraine.
Several lines of my conjecture seem to lead to Heimdell being
Polaris. Bifrost could be the Milky Way or the Aurora Borealis (or
both?). The Nine Mothers could be the Wanderers or the Aurora Borealis.
In any case, these are my conjectures. I don't present them as fact,
but I hope it gets you guys thinking.
> Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
> > a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> > the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> > the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
> > The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
> > a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
> > arrange the stars in different constellations.
>
> Good symbolism.
I present a more specific conjecture.
> >
> > I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
> > a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> > the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> > the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
> > The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
> > a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
> > arrange the stars in different constellations.
>
> Good symbolism.
Heimdell could be Polaris. Now, Polaris is not precisely
located at the hub of the Northern sky. Today it is close to the
hub, but not quite on top. In ancient days, 1-2 KYA, it may have
been noticeably farther from the hub.
If one lived above or near the Arctic circle, the Northern
hub would be close to the highest point in the sky. Polaris would
circle the hub. It would be a small circle, but noticeable if one
watched for a long time.
"Asgard" could symbolize the region of sky inside the little
circle. Polaris can be said to guard this little region of sky,
just as Heimdell guards Asgard.
Anything on the ecliptic plane (i.e., the Zodiac) could be the
"Mothers". The 7 Wanderers, which are on the ecliptic plane, could
represent 7 of the Mothers.
The ecliptic plane would be seen as being very close to the
horizon. To a sailor in the North, the ecliptic plane would be
on the ocean. The Wanderers would be right on the horizon, just coming
out of the ocean. So the Wanderers may be seen as the source of waves.
In other words, they could be the giant daughters of Aegir, sometimes
pictures as the source of waves.
The Milky Way could be seen as Bifrost, the Rainbow Bridge.
The Milky Way is perpendicular to the ecliptic plane. Therefore,
a Northern sailor would see the Milky Way climbing out of the sea
toward the North star. It would appear as though the Milky Way was
"pointing" toward the Northern hub.
Thus, the Milky Way would appear as a "bridge" from the
ecliptic plane (the ocean) to the Northern hub (i.e., Asgard).
Polaris (i.e., Heimdell) is all that stands between the Joten
of the ocean and the Aesir of Asgard.
Of course, Bifrost could also be the Aurora Borealis. These
curtains of excited plasma have all the colors of the rainbow.
They dance around Polaris, which would be the highest star in the
sky. The Aurora Borealis could also be the "Nine Mothers".
This imagery may not have originated with sailors. I am taking the point of view of an Arctic sailor looking to the sky. However, stellar
navigation may have been more important to some inland nomads then it
was to Viking sailors. After all, the sailors had ocean currents and
shorelines to provide some directional guides.
Inland nomads may have used the Heimdell story to remember
celestial signposts.A Sami herding his rheindeer in Lapland would
not have shorelines or ocean currents to get around. Neither would
herders in Siberia or the Ukraine.
Several lines of my conjecture seem to lead to Heimdell being
Polaris. Bifrost could be the Milky Way or the Aurora Borealis (or
both?). The Nine Mothers could be the Wanderers or the Aurora Borealis.
In any case, these are my conjectures. I don't present them as fact,
but I hope it gets you guys thinking.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 18, 2012, 11:45:53 PM5/18/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
Besides Jesus, according to the Church, had 2 Mothers, Mary, and Brigis,
his God Mother.
> Perhaps there was
> a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> the stars.
> Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
Really??
Willow and Friends, think such is pure Fairy Tale!
And it IS!
drose...@yahoo.com
May 20, 2012, 1:37:54 PM5/20/12
to
On Friday, May 18, 2012 11:45:53 PM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
in Northern latitudes. The sky that northern peoples
see is much different from the sky that people near the
equator see.
Celestial objects taken on a different aspect in high
and low latitudes. Venus would not be spectacular in the far
North, or far South. Polaris would not be all that special
in at the equator.
The planets are near the ecliptic plane. Therefore,
as seen from the North pole, all the planets would be on the
horizon. This would make all the planets hard to see. Venus
be harder to see because it is near the sun. Mountains and
valleys easily block planets for people in the North, because
the planets are so close to the horizon.
The sun goes down in the North, but it never goes
very far below the equator. Therefore, some sunlight is
always visible when Venus is visible. Venus would be
blocked by even a small mountain or valley. Sunlight would
diffuse around mountains, due to atmospheric scattering.
Northerners would consider the sun a better way to tell
time and to navigate.
In the winter, when generally the Northern sailors didn't travel,
the sun is below the horizon. The sun isn't directly observable for
months. They could sometimes use the sun anyway, because of scattered
light. They could use either the naked eye or birefringent crystals.
However, this would be difficult. They probably did do this, but these
methods aren't reliable. For a brave sailor in the winter, Polaris
would be the easiest and most reliable way to determine direction.
Polaris is near the axis of the earth. Therefore, as seen
from the North pole, it is the highest celestial object in the
sky. No mountain or valley can possible block it. As the observer
moves South, Polaris gets lower in the sky. At the latitudes of
Norway, one could tell time by looking at Polaris. One would have
difficulty using Venus the same way. A Northerner could navigate,
and tell time, by looking at Polaris.
For a traveler in the North, Polaris would be a cheery sight in the
winter. It is high in the sky, and it seems to be watching you all the
time. Just like Hemidall! Venus isn't always watching you. It zigs and
zags above and below the horizon.
For a person who lives near the equator, the situation is reversed.
Polaris is near the horizon at all times. Any mountain or valley can
block it. There is more atmospheric interference near the horizon.
Polaris is bright, but it still is only a typical star. So it would be
far harder to see by a person near the horizon.
A person near the equator sees Venus, but Venus is always near the
sun. However, the sun goes down far below the horizon for a person
at the equator. So the sun can go down until there is hardly any light.
Venus, when it arises above the horizon, is a bright beacon. This is why
it is both the Morning Star and the Evening Star. It is close to the sun
at all times. Venus would be most visible at summer and winter solstice,
when the sun is at the horizon. It would be bright and lovely.
Near the equator, when the sun isn't available, could probably use
Venus to estimate time and even to navigate.
I am the least convinced by this conjecture. I don't really
think that Ursa Major and Ursa Minor are the mothers. I think that
it is slightly more reasonable that the Wanderers are the mothers,
but I am not sure.
There are seven wanderers as recognized by Greeks and Babylonians.
The Wanderers are Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. These wander
up and down across the Celestial equator. I don't know if ancient
peoples were aware of any other Wanderers. Maybe some with very good
eyes could see Uranus and Neptune. That would make Nine Mothers!
saying that.
You may be taking a view consistent with people who lived closer
to the equator. The fertility religions often started in places close
to the equator, where agriculture first became a viable life style. For
these people, Venus was helpful when scheduling their agricultural
activities. The appearance of Venus was closely associated with
the two solstices. These equatorial farmers would hardly have seen
Polaris, let alone used it for timing.
> And it IS!
Possibly. However, the responses to this fairy tale have been
rather revealing.
You are basically a Vanir worshiper, looking to the equatorial
sky. Others here are Aesir worshipers, looking up to a Northern sky.
It is interesting how cultural biases can affect the way one views
the sky.
> Darwin123 wrote:
>
> > I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> Besides Jesus, according to the Church, had 2 Mothers, Mary, and Brigis,
> his God Mother.
>
> > Perhaps there was
> > a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> > the stars.
>
> They told Time, by "VENUS"!
I am projecting my point of view to people living
>
> > I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> Besides Jesus, according to the Church, had 2 Mothers, Mary, and Brigis,
> his God Mother.
>
> > Perhaps there was
> > a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> > the stars.
>
> They told Time, by "VENUS"!
in Northern latitudes. The sky that northern peoples
see is much different from the sky that people near the
equator see.
Celestial objects taken on a different aspect in high
and low latitudes. Venus would not be spectacular in the far
North, or far South. Polaris would not be all that special
in at the equator.
The planets are near the ecliptic plane. Therefore,
as seen from the North pole, all the planets would be on the
horizon. This would make all the planets hard to see. Venus
be harder to see because it is near the sun. Mountains and
valleys easily block planets for people in the North, because
the planets are so close to the horizon.
The sun goes down in the North, but it never goes
very far below the equator. Therefore, some sunlight is
always visible when Venus is visible. Venus would be
blocked by even a small mountain or valley. Sunlight would
diffuse around mountains, due to atmospheric scattering.
Northerners would consider the sun a better way to tell
time and to navigate.
In the winter, when generally the Northern sailors didn't travel,
the sun is below the horizon. The sun isn't directly observable for
months. They could sometimes use the sun anyway, because of scattered
light. They could use either the naked eye or birefringent crystals.
However, this would be difficult. They probably did do this, but these
methods aren't reliable. For a brave sailor in the winter, Polaris
would be the easiest and most reliable way to determine direction.
Polaris is near the axis of the earth. Therefore, as seen
from the North pole, it is the highest celestial object in the
sky. No mountain or valley can possible block it. As the observer
moves South, Polaris gets lower in the sky. At the latitudes of
Norway, one could tell time by looking at Polaris. One would have
difficulty using Venus the same way. A Northerner could navigate,
and tell time, by looking at Polaris.
For a traveler in the North, Polaris would be a cheery sight in the
winter. It is high in the sky, and it seems to be watching you all the
time. Just like Hemidall! Venus isn't always watching you. It zigs and
zags above and below the horizon.
For a person who lives near the equator, the situation is reversed.
Polaris is near the horizon at all times. Any mountain or valley can
block it. There is more atmospheric interference near the horizon.
Polaris is bright, but it still is only a typical star. So it would be
far harder to see by a person near the horizon.
A person near the equator sees Venus, but Venus is always near the
sun. However, the sun goes down far below the horizon for a person
at the equator. So the sun can go down until there is hardly any light.
Venus, when it arises above the horizon, is a bright beacon. This is why
it is both the Morning Star and the Evening Star. It is close to the sun
at all times. Venus would be most visible at summer and winter solstice,
when the sun is at the horizon. It would be bright and lovely.
Near the equator, when the sun isn't available, could probably use
Venus to estimate time and even to navigate.
>
> > Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> > the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
>
> URSA Major, and Ursa Minor??
> Really??
I said it was a conjecture !-)
> > Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> > the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
>
> URSA Major, and Ursa Minor??
> Really??
I am the least convinced by this conjecture. I don't really
think that Ursa Major and Ursa Minor are the mothers. I think that
it is slightly more reasonable that the Wanderers are the mothers,
but I am not sure.
There are seven wanderers as recognized by Greeks and Babylonians.
The Wanderers are Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. These wander
up and down across the Celestial equator. I don't know if ancient
peoples were aware of any other Wanderers. Maybe some with very good
eyes could see Uranus and Neptune. That would make Nine Mothers!
> Willow and Friends, think such is pure Fairy Tale!
It would be alright if they did. However, I don't remember them
saying that.
You may be taking a view consistent with people who lived closer
to the equator. The fertility religions often started in places close
to the equator, where agriculture first became a viable life style. For
these people, Venus was helpful when scheduling their agricultural
activities. The appearance of Venus was closely associated with
the two solstices. These equatorial farmers would hardly have seen
Polaris, let alone used it for timing.
> And it IS!
Possibly. However, the responses to this fairy tale have been
rather revealing.
You are basically a Vanir worshiper, looking to the equatorial
sky. Others here are Aesir worshipers, looking up to a Northern sky.
It is interesting how cultural biases can affect the way one views
the sky.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 21, 2012, 11:22:29 PM5/21/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 18, 2012 11:45:53 PM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> > > I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > > occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> >
> > There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> > Besides Jesus, according to the Church, had 2 Mothers, Mary, and Brigis,
> > his God Mother.
> >
> > > Perhaps there was
> > > a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> > > the stars.
> >
> > They told Time, by "VENUS"!
> I am projecting my point of view to people
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
May 22, 2012, 10:51:42 AM5/22/12
to
On 19/05/2012 04:45, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>
>
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
8
>
>
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
Pluto got demoted
--
FFF
Dirk
Full Spectrum Praxis : ZERO STATE : http://zerostate.net
Doug Freyburger
May 22, 2012, 3:02:35 PM5/22/12
to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
>>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
>> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
>
> 8
> Pluto got demoted
1) Moon
> Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
>>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
>> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
>
> 8
> Pluto got demoted
2) Dawn side of Mercury
3) Dusk side of Mercury
4) Dawn side of Venus
5) Disk side of Venus
6) Mars
7) Jupiter
9) Saturn
We now know some of them are actually the same bodies. We now know that
with telescopes we can see more. Nine is one of those numbers that mean
"many" more than it specifically means 8+1 or 10-1.
drose...@yahoo.com
May 22, 2012, 5:04:19 PM5/22/12
to dirk....@gmail.com
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:51:42 AM UTC-4, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> On 19/05/2012 04:45, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >
> >
> > Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> >> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> >> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> >
> > There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
>
> 8
> Pluto got demoted
Pluto doesn't count. It should never have been called
> On 19/05/2012 04:45, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >
> >
> > Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> >> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> >> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> >
> > There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
>
> 8
> Pluto got demoted
a planet to begin with. Now, Uranus and Neptune are PLANETS!
Uranus and Neptune are almost impossible to see
without a telescope. If these ancient cultures didn't
have good telescopes, then they couldn't have seen it.
Thus, they would have counted only seven wanderers.
The notion that some ancient peoples had goo
telescopes will be entertained. I seriously doubt it.
However, some Vikings did have good lenses that they
used for various reasons. Some people had very good
eyes.
If Vikings had telescopes, they could have seen Uranus
and Neptune. They still wouldn't have seen Pluto. That
would make Nine Wanderers: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter,
Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. I don't believe that they knew
about the last two. However, I can't dismiss it entirely.
My own bias is that unless something was extremely
apparent, it would not have made it into the mythology or
poetry. So it appears to me improbable that Vikings, Sami
or Eskimos knew about Uranus and Neptune.
If the ancients had telescopes, they came up with the
technology on their own. Evil spells will be cast at the ones
who hypothesize ancient aliens !-)
drose...@yahoo.com
May 22, 2012, 5:13:20 PM5/22/12
to
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:02:35 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >> Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> >>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> >>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> >
> >> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> >
> > 8
> > Pluto got demoted
>
> 1) Moon
> 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> 4) Dawn side of Venus
> 5) Disk side of Venus
> 6) Mars
> 7) Jupiter
> 9) Saturn
1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> >
> >>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> >>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> >
> >> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> >
> > 8
> > Pluto got demoted
>
> 1) Moon
> 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> 4) Dawn side of Venus
> 5) Disk side of Venus
> 6) Mars
> 7) Jupiter
> 9) Saturn
doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
2) Couldn't they make a similar mistake with the major planets (i.e.,
Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)?
>
> We now know some of them are actually the same bodies. We now know that
> with telescopes we can see more. Nine is one of those numbers that mean
> "many" more than it specifically means 8+1 or 10-1.
With due respect, Sturlson could have miscounted. He actually
> We now know some of them are actually the same bodies. We now know that
> with telescopes we can see more. Nine is one of those numbers that mean
> "many" more than it specifically means 8+1 or 10-1.
wrote in the "factual" section of his poetry that the earth was flat.
Snorri was a top military leader, a poet, a diplomat, a lawyer
and a politician. However, we have to face facts. His knowledge of
astronomy was not cutting edge!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 22, 2012, 9:41:03 PM5/22/12
to
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> On 19/05/2012 04:45, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >
> >
> > drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> >> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> >
> > There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
>
> 8
> Pluto got demoted
Was also Reinstated!
> >
> >
> > drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> >> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> >
> > There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
>
> 8
> Pluto got demoted
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 22, 2012, 9:46:02 PM5/22/12
to
Tales are so Funny", RIGHT???
STAR WARS and NUADA, all the same to Hollywood!
O'Bae's of Wan and the Scythians who were Kin O Bae, doesn't mean a thing to
the True Blondes, who claim to be THE White Boys of the North!
They know the Story but Not the Meaning!
Otherwise they would know where the Rainbow Bridge is, and why it Can be
"Walked Across", by LIVING BEINGS!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 22, 2012, 9:47:59 PM5/22/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:51:42 AM UTC-4, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> > On 19/05/2012 04:45, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Darwin123 wrote:
> > >
> > >> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > >> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> > >
> > > There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> >
> > 8
> > Pluto got demoted
> Pluto doesn't count.
Regardless 9 Planets, 8, Crystal Rings of Heaven, all the Same Thing!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 22, 2012, 9:49:24 PM5/22/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:02:35 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> > > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > >> Darwin123 wrote:
> > >
> > >>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > >>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> > >
> > >> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> > >
> > > 8
> > > Pluto got demoted
> >
> > 1) Moon
> > 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> > 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> > 4) Dawn side of Venus
> > 5) Disk side of Venus
> > 6) Mars
> > 7) Jupiter
> > 9) Saturn
> 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
invention of the TELESCOPE???
drose...@yahoo.com
May 22, 2012, 10:50:04 PM5/22/12
to
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:49:24 PM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> Darwin123 wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:02:35 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > > Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> > > > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > > >> Darwin123 wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > > >>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> > > >
> > > >> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> > > >
> > > > 8
> > > > Pluto got demoted
> > >
> > > 1) Moon
> > > 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> > > 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> > > 4) Dawn side of Venus
> > > 5) Disk side of Venus
> > > 6) Mars
> > > 7) Jupiter
> > > 9) Saturn
> > 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> > doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
>
> What did they use to View the Outer Planets, which were only Found "AFTER", the
> invention of the TELESCOPE???
By outer planets, do you mean outside the earth's orbit?
> Darwin123 wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:02:35 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > > Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> > > > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > > >> Darwin123 wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > > >>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
> > > >
> > > >> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> > > >
> > > > 8
> > > > Pluto got demoted
> > >
> > > 1) Moon
> > > 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> > > 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> > > 4) Dawn side of Venus
> > > 5) Disk side of Venus
> > > 6) Mars
> > > 7) Jupiter
> > > 9) Saturn
> > 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> > doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
>
> What did they use to View the Outer Planets, which were only Found "AFTER", the
> invention of the TELESCOPE???
The orbits of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are outside the earth's orbit.
Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are also easily seen without a telescope.
Uranus and Neptune have orbits also outside the earth's orbit. However,
they can't be seen without a telescope.
I read somewhere that a person with 20/20 vision who knows precisely
where to look can barely see Uranus. However, the sighting would be marginal
at best. So basically, Uranus couldn't be discovered without a telescope.
Planet is the Greek word for Wanderer. The celestial bodies that
wander against the stellar background were called planets by the Greeks
and Romans. However, planet has taken on different meanings. So I will
refer to these a Wanderers.
The seven Wanderers clearly seen by the Babylonians, Greeks and Romans
were the Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. These 7
Wanderers really impressed the Mediterranean cultures.
That is one reason that the number 7 is used so much as a mystical
number by Mediterranean types. That may also be one reason why there are 7 days of the week. The duration of feasts and holidays tends toward being
arranged around the number 7.
Among Northern peoples, 3 and 9 are used a lot. Many feasts have 9 or
18 days to them. The Festival at Uppsala was 18 days. A lot of the myths
are arranged around the multiples of 3. Here there doesn't seem to be an astronomical basis. I don't know why 7 would be Mediterranean, and 9
would be Scandanavian.
I was making conjectures about how different cultures would react to
the sky. I was making the point that the sky looks different in the North
than at the equator.The Wanderers be positioned differently for Northern people than for Mediterranean people.
For a person living in the North, the 7 Wanderers
would be always near the horizon. A Northern sailor would practically see
them rising and falling in the ocean. None of these Wanderers would rise
high in the sky. They would be blocked from view by even the smallest
hills. So I don't think they would be impressive. Each of the Wanderers
would be hidden from view for many months of the year.
The stars would really be much more noticeable. When the sun is
hidden, some stars would be visible. Polaris would always be the highest
star in the heavens. Mercury and Venus are never far from the Sun.
However, the Sun itself stays near the horizon. Venus would never rise
very high.
For a person living near the equator, or near the Mediterranean, the
Wanderers would be much more impressive. Five of the wanderers would rise
high in the heavens on most nights. These are Moon, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and
Saturn. The inner planets would always be near the Sun, and thus could only
be seen when the Sun was just below the horizon. These are Mercury and
Venus. These two would never be seen far from the Sun. Mercury is very dim
and would vanish as soon as the Sun rose above the horizon. However, Venus
would be visible for long times after the sun has rose or set.
I suspect that stars were more useful than planets up North, merely because some stars are higher. For people near the equator, the Wanderers
would rise high in the sky. So the Wanderers could be just as useful as
stars.
Let me use the Jewish holidays as an example. A Jewish holiday is
always supposed to begin when the first star shows in the heavens. This
is why Jewish holidays, and the Sabbath, always start at night. Now
imagine how difficult this prescription would be up North. For months
at a time, stars are seen all day long! The Jewish calender is based on
the Moon more than the Sun. In the Mediterranean, the sun is always
hidden when the full moon is high in the sky. However, up North the
Sun and a full moon could both be at the horizon at the same time! This
would make the full moon difficult to see!
Clearly, the Jewish calender is most useful to a people near
the equator. People up North would find a Solar calender, with holidays
starting during the day, as more useful. I think that is one reason
the Gregarian calender made it in Europe. I suspect that the Vikings,
Sami, Celts, Gaelics, etc. would have their own special calenders
and customs.
drose...@yahoo.com
May 23, 2012, 5:58:00 AM5/23/12
to
On Friday, May 18, 2012 11:45:53 PM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
I made other, rather long posts about astronomy. However, I
should state the main epiphany more succinctly. Here it is:
For a person living near either pole, North or South, Mercury and
Venus would be very hard to see. The Sun would almost always be above the
horizon when either Mercury or Venus was visible.
The Sun would certainly make Mercury impossible to see for our
hypothetical Viking/Sami/Eskimo. Venus would sometimes be seen even
when the Sun was visible. However, it would lose some contrast because
of the Sun. So our Viking/Sami/Eskimo would not be likely to use either
Venus or Mercury for navigation or time keeping.
For a person near the equator, Mercury and Venus could be clearly
seen for as short time before sunrise and after sunset. Venus would look
awesome at these times. Although not so awesome, Mercury would be easy to
see at certain specific times. So our Greek/Roman/Semite would be more
likely to use Venus and Mercury for navigation and time keeping.
This difference could spill over into their religion and ritual. This
made me thing more deeply about the astrology, or lack of it, in Northern
tales. So thank you.
The story of Freya and her lost husband Od comes to mind. Could Venus
represent Freya and Mercury represent Od?
Just a thought.
> Darwin123 wrote:
>
> > I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> Besides Jesus, according to the Church, had 2 Mothers, Mary, and Brigis,
> his God Mother.
>
> > Perhaps there was
> > a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> > the stars.
>
> They told Time, by "VENUS"!
Thank you. This one comment stimulated a brain storm in me.
>
> > I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> > occurred to me that this may refer to stars.
>
> There are 9 Planets, not 9 Stars.
> Besides Jesus, according to the Church, had 2 Mothers, Mary, and Brigis,
> his God Mother.
>
> > Perhaps there was
> > a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> > the stars.
>
> They told Time, by "VENUS"!
I made other, rather long posts about astronomy. However, I
should state the main epiphany more succinctly. Here it is:
For a person living near either pole, North or South, Mercury and
Venus would be very hard to see. The Sun would almost always be above the
horizon when either Mercury or Venus was visible.
The Sun would certainly make Mercury impossible to see for our
hypothetical Viking/Sami/Eskimo. Venus would sometimes be seen even
when the Sun was visible. However, it would lose some contrast because
of the Sun. So our Viking/Sami/Eskimo would not be likely to use either
Venus or Mercury for navigation or time keeping.
For a person near the equator, Mercury and Venus could be clearly
seen for as short time before sunrise and after sunset. Venus would look
awesome at these times. Although not so awesome, Mercury would be easy to
see at certain specific times. So our Greek/Roman/Semite would be more
likely to use Venus and Mercury for navigation and time keeping.
This difference could spill over into their religion and ritual. This
made me thing more deeply about the astrology, or lack of it, in Northern
tales. So thank you.
The story of Freya and her lost husband Od comes to mind. Could Venus
represent Freya and Mercury represent Od?
Just a thought.
Doug Freyburger
May 23, 2012, 1:39:42 PM5/23/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>> >> Darwin123 wrote:
>> >
>
>> 1) Moon
>> 2) Dawn side of Mercury
>> 3) Dusk side of Mercury
>> 4) Dawn side of Venus
>> 5) Disk side of Venus
>> 6) Mars
>> 7) Jupiter
>> 9) Saturn
>
> 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
The dawn and dusk planets are never visible together. It's a hint that
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>> >> Darwin123 wrote:
>> >
>
>> 1) Moon
>> 2) Dawn side of Mercury
>> 3) Dusk side of Mercury
>> 4) Dawn side of Venus
>> 5) Disk side of Venus
>> 6) Mars
>> 7) Jupiter
>> 9) Saturn
>
> 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
led some ancient cultures to conclude they are the same other ancient
cultures to not make that correlation.
> 2) Couldn't they make a similar mistake with the major planets (i.e.,
> Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)?
keep going across the entire sky. They are only occulted by the Earth's
day/night cycle and when they are very close to the Sun. They can be
seen very close to dawn and dusk.
>> We now know some of them are actually the same bodies. We now know that
>> with telescopes we can see more. Nine is one of those numbers that mean
>> "many" more than it specifically means 8+1 or 10-1.
>
> With due respect, Sturlson could have miscounted. He actually
> wrote in the "factual" section of his poetry that the earth was flat.
> Snorri was a top military leader, a poet, a diplomat, a lawyer
> and a politician. However, we have to face facts. His knowledge of
> astronomy was not cutting edge!
more than one list of 12 for each. He definitely knew the number of
deities was not 12 to any extent he thought the deities were treated in
the lore as existing (independent of his belief about their existance he
knew the lore well and the lore does treat them as existing). Here
again we have a number that's a multiple of 3 that means "many" in a
sense more general and less exact than it means 11+1 or 13-1.
drose...@yahoo.com
May 23, 2012, 6:33:02 PM5/23/12
to
On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:39:42 PM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
the Nine Mothers are the Nine wanderers (including the dopplegangers of
Mercury and Venus), and the Milky Way is Bifrost. The Nine Mothers are
giantesses of the sea, and the Milky Way leads to Heimdell and the
Asgard he encircles.
Again, this is just an amusing conjecture. If you do not like it,
please present a conjecture that satisfies you.
This conjecture concerning the sky should not be taken as advice
not to believe in your spirits. Astronomical phenomena are often used
as metaphors for the divine without the worshiper believing in the literal
meaning.
I have met many fanatic Christians and Creationists, in person and
on-line. Many of them describe Lucifer, the Morning Star and the Falling
Star. However, none of these extreme Christians actually believe the planet
Venus embodies the Devil. These are people whose belief has transcended
physical reality in other respects. However, no Christian believes Satan
is literally the planet Venus. None that I met, I should say.
Not every astronomical metaphor is related to astrology. So the
frequent mentions of astronomical phenomena should not be always taken
as astrological symbols. However, I will bet that some tales are
astronomical mnemonics. Ways to remember important procedures that involve
astronomy.
Example of song involving an astronomical mnemonic:
"Just Follow that Drinking Gourd, Follow, the Drinking Gourd..."
This mnemonic would probably make more sense down South then in
Alaska !-)
> Darwin123 wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> >> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >> >> Darwin123 wrote:
> >> >
> >
> >> 1) Moon
> >> 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> >> 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> >> 4) Dawn side of Venus
> >> 5) Disk side of Venus
> >> 6) Mars
> >> 7) Jupiter
> >> 9) Saturn
> >
> > 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> > doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
>
> The dawn and dusk planets are never visible together. It's a hint that
> led some ancient cultures to conclude they are the same other ancient
> cultures to not make that correlation.
Okay, then the model is at least self consistent. Heimdell is Polaris,
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> >> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >> >> Darwin123 wrote:
> >> >
> >
> >> 1) Moon
> >> 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> >> 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> >> 4) Dawn side of Venus
> >> 5) Disk side of Venus
> >> 6) Mars
> >> 7) Jupiter
> >> 9) Saturn
> >
> > 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> > doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
>
> The dawn and dusk planets are never visible together. It's a hint that
> led some ancient cultures to conclude they are the same other ancient
> cultures to not make that correlation.
the Nine Mothers are the Nine wanderers (including the dopplegangers of
Mercury and Venus), and the Milky Way is Bifrost. The Nine Mothers are
giantesses of the sea, and the Milky Way leads to Heimdell and the
Asgard he encircles.
Again, this is just an amusing conjecture. If you do not like it,
please present a conjecture that satisfies you.
This conjecture concerning the sky should not be taken as advice
not to believe in your spirits. Astronomical phenomena are often used
as metaphors for the divine without the worshiper believing in the literal
meaning.
I have met many fanatic Christians and Creationists, in person and
on-line. Many of them describe Lucifer, the Morning Star and the Falling
Star. However, none of these extreme Christians actually believe the planet
Venus embodies the Devil. These are people whose belief has transcended
physical reality in other respects. However, no Christian believes Satan
is literally the planet Venus. None that I met, I should say.
Not every astronomical metaphor is related to astrology. So the
frequent mentions of astronomical phenomena should not be always taken
as astrological symbols. However, I will bet that some tales are
astronomical mnemonics. Ways to remember important procedures that involve
astronomy.
Example of song involving an astronomical mnemonic:
"Just Follow that Drinking Gourd, Follow, the Drinking Gourd..."
This mnemonic would probably make more sense down South then in
Alaska !-)
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 24, 2012, 3:11:53 AM5/24/12
to
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 24, 2012, 3:44:07 AM5/24/12
to
FENRIS, is the SHE WOLF of ALBA, Munster of the CAS HEL, Shape Shifters the BIBLE, calls
Eunuchs, the Strange Women, and/or the "STRANGERS"!!
HEIR and GUARDIAN of HEL, the "UNDERGROUND KINGDOM" Shangra La, the CITADEL, Terasias, leads
the Dead.
Badb Shi / BANSHEE, Pale Rider who's name IS
"DEATH"!!
But FENRIS, does NOT fight to DESTROY the BRIDGE, the GODS HATE MAN, ANGLO/ARYAN Oil Boys
are the ones LAUNCHING MISSILES at the "NORTHERN LIGHTS" because they Interfere with their
Ability to Communicate during WAR!
ANGLO/ARYAN'S are the ones engaging in GEO WARFARE!!
How Dare MAN fuck with the Earth!
Then proclaim GIA responsible for being Mad!
Now NATURE, is the WORST TERRORIST, Known and the US has declared WAR on her!
Don't Blame Fenris for trying to DEFEND the BRIDGE!
They BREAK IT, NO ONE gets Across, "NOT EVEN THE GODS"!
That means the Came to Hel!
NO THANK YOU!
YOU GO THERE, WE GO HERE!~
Zealots doing the Holy Prayer 24/7, with Brother Billy and Friends at the Pulpit, screaming
in my Ear, and the only Music the Choir Backing Him, isn't My Idea of Heaven!
"I", like the idea of a Peaceful Bend in the River, where I can be at Peace and One with
Nature!
I don't want to live the Aryan, CHRISTIAN WARRIOR, TEMPLAR LIE!
Templar's tore down Terra, looking for the Arc, never understanding about the Fish of the
River, being the Child of JETHRO/Jetrux, Heth.....
The "LIVING ROCK" GOD carved the "LAW" in!!\
Man's HEART!
Damned Hind anyway!
How dare the Fair exist, Laddies of Hel, Boys who Wear Skirts, She Wolf Shape Shifters,
Damned RAVEN TRICkSTERS, Children and Tribe of ELPH or the Elves of Legend itself, the Doc
Alfar, who are the Legends the Lict Alfar only Dream of!
Don't Provoke the Dark Side, but they did it anyway, just to see what happens!
And as in the Movie Serenity, they think the River is finished, yet it hasn't even started
Yet!
All it was doing was absorbing the Spring Fresheth, which is about to Over Flow it's Bank's
and "DESTROY" ALL, Before it!
TAIN, stomps his Enemies 6 Feet in the Dirt!
Pig's taught the Chinese the way of LUM!
TOTEM?
YES!
CAVE BEARS?
YES!
EAGLES?
YES!
DRAGONS TOO!
Puriel, the one called Dagda, is about to say BOO!
Before was just play, to show you, wasn't even trying, but I AM, gonna start, if they keep
going!
MAR's has No Choice BUT to Defend Himself from the ASSAULTS of his ENEMY, Funded by the
Peoples Money Hemorrhaging through the Transportation Department!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 24, 2012, 3:46:16 AM5/24/12
to
Doug Freyburger wrote:
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
> >> > Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> >> >> Darwin123 wrote:
> >> >
> >
> >> 1) Moon
> >> 2) Dawn side of Mercury
> >> 3) Dusk side of Mercury
> >> 4) Dawn side of Venus
> >> 5) Disk side of Venus
> >> 6) Mars
> >> 7) Jupiter
> >> 9) Saturn
> >
> > 1) Why would an ancient astronomer think that the minor planets were
> > doubled (i.e., two Mercury's and two Venuses)?
>
> The dawn and dusk planets are never visible together.
Venus is "Both", the Evening Star AND the Morning Star!
ESPECIALLY AROUND HERE!
The Show, She just put on was intense!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 24, 2012, 3:47:39 AM5/24/12
to
Doug Freyburger
May 24, 2012, 11:46:03 AM5/24/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>... and the Milky Way is Bifrost. The Nine Mothers are
rainbow.
> Not every astronomical metaphor is related to astrology. So the
> frequent mentions of astronomical phenomena should not be always taken
> as astrological symbols. However, I will bet that some tales are
> astronomical mnemonics. Ways to remember important procedures that involve
> astronomy.
> Example of song involving an astronomical mnemonic:
> "Just Follow that Drinking Gourd, Follow, the Drinking Gourd..."
> This mnemonic would probably make more sense down South then in
> Alaska !-)
"Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me" is a common mneumonic among astronomers for
the stellar brightness classes. When I worked at JPL one of the cars in
the parking lot had personallized license plates OBAFGKM. I glanced at
it and burst into laughter. Folks at other places of work might be less
likely to know its meaning at a glance.
>
>... and the Milky Way is Bifrost. The Nine Mothers are
> giantesses of the sea, and the Milky Way leads to Heimdell and the
> Asgard he encircles.
That's one of the two most common views of Bifrost. The other is the
> Asgard he encircles.
rainbow.
> Not every astronomical metaphor is related to astrology. So the
> frequent mentions of astronomical phenomena should not be always taken
> as astrological symbols. However, I will bet that some tales are
> astronomical mnemonics. Ways to remember important procedures that involve
> astronomy.
> Example of song involving an astronomical mnemonic:
> "Just Follow that Drinking Gourd, Follow, the Drinking Gourd..."
> This mnemonic would probably make more sense down South then in
> Alaska !-)
the stellar brightness classes. When I worked at JPL one of the cars in
the parking lot had personallized license plates OBAFGKM. I glanced at
it and burst into laughter. Folks at other places of work might be less
likely to know its meaning at a glance.
drose...@yahoo.com
May 24, 2012, 2:49:28 PM5/24/12
to
acknowledge your point. These three planets would not be known
in ancient times. The people then didn't have telescopes.
I will say a bit on Saturn with respect to ancient peoples.
Saturn is seen from earth. It is one of the seven Wanderers
of ancient lore. It was perceived as the slowest Wanderer in the
sky. The movements of Saturn against the celestial sphere is the
slowest of any planet.
The Babylonians considered this slow motion an indication
of danger. I conjecture that the emotional connection was between
moving slow and death. Maybe it was between slow and sickness.
Maybe the idea is that Saturn could slow down the sun. When the
sun came close to Saturn, there was danger that the sun could
stop. Whatever the reason, Saturn was menacing. One was supposed
to pray that day to avoid the disaster brought on by Saturday.
There is a theory that this was how the Saturday became the
day of rest for the Jewish people. The theory is that the story in
Genesis, where Saturday became the day of rest, was really written
in Babylon. I personally believe this theory. However, in
contradicts some of the stories in Exodus.
Saturday was set to aside to the planet Saturn. One
was not supposed to work on Saturday because it may trigger a
hostile response from the planet Saturn. Saturday then became
a day of rest.
When Hebrews were brought to Babylon, they were subject
to the same restrictions as the rest of Babylon. They adapted
the custom but changed the significance. Their attitude was
"anything that is bad for my enemy is good for me." So they
started to claim that Saturday was a gift from God. Instead
of a day of menace, it became the day of rest. It became the
best day of the Jewish week.
I think the Greeks associated this day with the titan
Kronos because he was the father of Zeus. Zeus leaped out
the stomach of Kronos. I think the idea is that the new
week jumps out of Saturday, the end of the week. The Romans
called the seventh day of the week, Saturday.
The Vikings and Celts would have very much aware of Saturn.
However, it would have been only seen near the horizon like all
the other planets.
The only Wanderers that I have seen in the North regard the sun
and the moon. Both are very important to people up there. However,
I haven't found any legends concerning other celestial bodies. Yet,
four days of the week are named in English by Norse gods (Tyre,
Woden, Thor, Freya). So I wonder:
1) How did the Norse gods get into the days of the week?
2) How come a Roman god, Saturn, get mixed up with four
Norse gods?
3) In Asatru and its predecessor religions, were the four
Norse gods in the week (Tyre, Woden, Thor and Freya) mixed
up with astronomy?
drose...@yahoo.com
May 24, 2012, 3:07:09 PM5/24/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:46:03 AM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Bifrost could have symbolized all three (Milky Way, rainbow,
Aurora Boreolis). It could have meant different things to different
people. They could have had contests assigning different
interpretations to each legend. Or maybe there are three bridges.
I tell stories. I once talked about the War between Aesir
and Vanir. In my version, there were two rainbow bridges, one for
the Aesir and one for the Vanir.
The first order rainbow corresponded to a Aesir Bifrost.
The second order rainbow corresponded to a Vanir Bifrost.
Alexander's band, the darkness between the two rainbows,
corresponded to a deep body of water.
I convinced myself for a while that this was the only logical
interpretation of the original legend. Later, I realized that I
was being too inflexible.
> Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> >... and the Milky Way is Bifrost. The Nine Mothers are
> > giantesses of the sea, and the Milky Way leads to Heimdell and the
> > Asgard he encircles.
>
> That's one of the two most common views of Bifrost. The other is the
> rainbow.
Bifrost may be the Aurora Borealis.
> >
> >... and the Milky Way is Bifrost. The Nine Mothers are
> > giantesses of the sea, and the Milky Way leads to Heimdell and the
> > Asgard he encircles.
>
> That's one of the two most common views of Bifrost. The other is the
> rainbow.
Bifrost could have symbolized all three (Milky Way, rainbow,
Aurora Boreolis). It could have meant different things to different
people. They could have had contests assigning different
interpretations to each legend. Or maybe there are three bridges.
I tell stories. I once talked about the War between Aesir
and Vanir. In my version, there were two rainbow bridges, one for
the Aesir and one for the Vanir.
The first order rainbow corresponded to a Aesir Bifrost.
The second order rainbow corresponded to a Vanir Bifrost.
Alexander's band, the darkness between the two rainbows,
corresponded to a deep body of water.
I convinced myself for a while that this was the only logical
interpretation of the original legend. Later, I realized that I
was being too inflexible.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 25, 2012, 2:57:46 AM5/25/12
to
Maybe, then you could use the Artifacts and Verbiage to open the Gates.
But from what I see, your all still Primates, a Million Years off yet!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 25, 2012, 3:05:49 AM5/25/12
to
> and Pluto.
> However, I
> acknowledge your point. These three planets would not be known
> in ancient times. The people then didn't have telescopes.
How could a man have a Functional Metal Arm Replace his True Arm?
As it was 3500 BCE or Earlier, how could it be made of "SILVER" and be useful?
What kind of Arrow did Rama have or the Dart Apollo gave Abaris, which allowed them to travel so
quickly anywhere in the world they wanted?
What a Joke, we all know such things are Impossible, look around you, you ever hear of such
Nonsense!
>
> I will say a bit on Saturn with respect to ancient peoples.
> Saturn is seen from earth.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 25, 2012, 3:10:18 AM5/25/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:46:03 AM UTC-4, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > Darwin123 wrote:
> > >
> > >... and the Milky Way is Bifrost. The Nine Mothers are
> > > giantesses of the sea, and the Milky Way leads to Heimdell and the
> > > Asgard he encircles.
> >
> > That's one of the two most common views of Bifrost. The other is the
> > rainbow.
> Bifrost may be the Aurora Borealis.
> Bifrost could have symbolized all three (Milky Way, rainbow,
> Aurora Boreolis). It could have meant different things to different
> people.
its Poison Vapors.
You would have to be here, to see Perma Frost, especially in the Winter to
understand Ice Fog, and why Arctic Winters Do Freeze the Poison Vapors from
the Air!
Something Oil Company Gas Vents Heating the Arctic Jet Stream, reduce.
Some Gases, react rather Violently to sudden Heating even!
Darwin123
May 31, 2012, 5:38:16 PM5/31/12
to
On May 24, 11:46 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me" is a common mneumonic among astronomers for
> the stellar brightness classes. When I worked at JPL one of the cars in
> the parking lot had personallized license plates OBAFGKM. I glanced at
> it and burst into laughter. Folks at other places of work might be less
> likely to know its meaning at a glance.
There is that statement "Heimdallr is the Whitest of All
> "Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me" is a common mneumonic among astronomers for
> the stellar brightness classes. When I worked at JPL one of the cars in
> the parking lot had personallized license plates OBAFGKM. I glanced at
> it and burst into laughter. Folks at other places of work might be less
> likely to know its meaning at a glance.
Gods".
Could "whitest" mean that Heimdallr is "most visible"?
Polaris is the highest star in the sky up North. Hence, it
is the most visible. There is no high mountain that can block
Polaris.
Many associate "whitest" with "white race". I
acknowledge that "whitest" could be racial. I know that
there were strong ethnic, even "racial", attitudes back then.
However, the conflicts with Norway and Iceland at that time
largely had nothing to do with skin color. Clans and families
fought each other. A thrall was more likely to come from a
neighboring family as Africa.
There is one four line poem where Heimdallr is described
as whitest. The context of the poem is also regarding fore-sight, not
ancestery. Heimdallar is helping Thor get dressed up in drag
in order to ambush a Jotun who stole his hammer. Heimdallr
is then described as "the whitest of gods, as foresighted
as any Vanir".
"Whitest" here means either "most respected" or "most
regarded." Again, this seems to be associated with his role
as a Watcher. Just like Polaris is the star most used in
navigation, Heimdallr is the most listened to of gods.
Polaris is not Heimdallr. Rather, the star Polaris is
a highly visible analog to the principle that Heimdallr
tries to encourage. Heimdallr wants humans to be
aware of "where they are". Polaris is a star that helps some
people know "where they are". Hence, Polaris presents a useful
symbol for visualizing the values of Heimdallr.
Heimdallr seems in s ome ways like a "god of situational
awareness." He has important knowledge to pass on. However,
it is not deep wisdom as is imparted by Odin. It is a
knowledge of the way things are now. Heimdallr seems to be
a seer of the concrete fact, not of abstract "wisdom".
Darwin123
May 31, 2012, 7:37:38 PM5/31/12
to
On May 24, 3:46 am, "Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole"
<laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
Because it certainly wasn't at Midnight or Noon!
Mercury and Venus can never be seen at Midnight, because
they are inner planets. They never stray too far from the
sun. So there is a gap in appearance that can be separated
by months.
The other planets can sometimes be seen at Midnight,
because they are outer planets. They can appear on the
opposite side of the sky from the sun. So there is no
significant gap in appearance during the year. You can
follow them from the dawn side of the sky to the dusk
side of the sky.
Therefore, it is conceivable that some ancient people
couldn't make the connection between the inner planets dawn
to dusk. That may be how the Evening Star and the Morning Star
got different names.
<laddie'o'lugh@gall's.org> wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
Because it certainly wasn't at Midnight or Noon!
Mercury and Venus can never be seen at Midnight, because
they are inner planets. They never stray too far from the
sun. So there is a gap in appearance that can be separated
by months.
The other planets can sometimes be seen at Midnight,
because they are outer planets. They can appear on the
opposite side of the sky from the sun. So there is no
significant gap in appearance during the year. You can
follow them from the dawn side of the sky to the dusk
side of the sky.
Therefore, it is conceivable that some ancient people
couldn't make the connection between the inner planets dawn
to dusk. That may be how the Evening Star and the Morning Star
got different names.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 31, 2012, 11:46:49 PM5/31/12
to
Darwin123 wrote:
> On May 24, 11:46 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me" is a common mneumonic among astronomers for
> > the stellar brightness classes. When I worked at JPL one of the cars in
> > the parking lot had personallized license plates OBAFGKM. I glanced at
> > it and burst into laughter. Folks at other places of work might be less
> > likely to know its meaning at a glance.
> There is that statement "Heimdallr is the Whitest of All
> Gods".
> Could "whitest" mean that Heimdallr is "most visible"?
> Polaris is the highest star in the sky up North. Hence, it
> is the most visible. There is no high mountain that can block
> Polaris.
> Many associate "whitest" with "white race". I
> acknowledge that "whitest" could be racial. I know that
> there were strong ethnic, even "racial", attitudes back then.
White are Blondes, while
Dark are Reds!
According to some the Whitest of All, would represent the Void, Moon and
Darkness of the Night!
Reds, equal Light Fire and the Sun.
Even in Art "White Lacks Color, Black is the combination of all Colors!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
May 31, 2012, 11:47:47 PM5/31/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 1, 2012, 11:20:09 AM6/1/12
to
On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:47:47 PM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
>
> All Night Long!
This would be impossible for the planet Venus.
> > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
>
> All Night Long!
The orbit of Venus is inside the orbit of the earth.
Therefore, as seen from earth, Venus always appears next
to the sun. Therefore, Venus can not been seen when the sun
is far beneath the horizon. The same goes for Mercury.
Venus can't be seen at midnight. There is a gap in
the appearance of Venus. That is why Venus is both the
Morning Star and the Evening Star. Venus is never called
the Midnight Star!
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 1, 2012, 2:19:36 PM6/1/12
to
On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:47:47, Darwin123 wrote:
>
> > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
>
> All Night Long!
That could not be Venus! It must have been a
>
> > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
>
> All Night Long!
Flying Saucer Spacecraft !-)
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 1, 2012, 4:43:31 PM6/1/12
to
If you mix paints of all colors, one could get black paint.
Each paint absorbs a different wavelength.
However, there is also an additive color scale in art.
If you mix light of different colors, one would get white light.
The sensation of light comes from the sum of light waves of different
wavelengths.
In any case, Heimdall's most outstanding behavior is watching.
Therefore, the "whitest" has to have something to do with watching.
I don't know what the word meant in the original language. One poet
translated the word as "brightest". In English this makes sense, but I
don't know about other languages.
In English, brightest could mean the one with the ability to see
better than the others. Hence, "white" can really be "illuminating" in
the poems original sense. However, you think of white as meaning
"emptiest". That makes sense too. Or maybe white means pure. A person
who is morally pure is "empty of vices".
Maybe "white" means "expressionless". Heimdall tightened Thor's
bridal dress without breaking any expression on his face. The imagery
IS amusing.
1) Does anyone know what word was used that is now translated as
"whitest"?
2) What else could the word "whitest" mean?
Hermerico
Jun 2, 2012, 2:36:49 PM6/2/12
to
On Friday, May 11, 2012 5:45:58 PM UTC-4, drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
> The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
> a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
> arrange the stars in different constellations.
> Different variations on this idea are being examined by me.
> For instance, Heimdall may be associated with Polaris. Polaris
> may be seen as watching over the universe. It also helps guide
> travelers.
> That leaves the question as to who the nine mothers would
> be. I considered the ancient "planets", which for clarity I will
> call the Wanderers. The Wanderers stay on the ecliptic plane, which
> is as far from Polaris as the Vikings would be able to see.
> However, there are only seven Wanderers. There could be nine stars
> located near Polaris that somehow stand out as a group. My cursory
> examination of star charts did not reveal a recognizable group of
> nine.
> Heimdall does not have to be Polaris. Maybe the Rainbow
> Bridge is the Milky Way. In which case, Heimdall and his nine
> mothers could be some constellation on the Milky Way. Or maybe
> Heimdall is the region where the Milky Way and the ecliptic plane
> cross. Then the nine mothers would be the Milky Way, the seven
> Wanderers and the earth.
> 1) Are there any astronomical interpretations of the Nine Mothers
> of Heimdall?
> Maybe the story has no astronomical significance. So,
> 2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
Heimdall = Home-dale. What typically forms a dale? A river. Rivers have tributaries. I suspect that Heimdall's "mothers" were the tributary rivers in a long forgotten valley.
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 2, 2012, 6:37:02 PM6/2/12
to
On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:36:49 PM UTC-4, Hermerico wrote:
>
> Heimdall = Home-dale. What typically forms a dale? A river. Rivers have tributaries. I suspect that Heimdall's "mothers" were the tributary rivers in a long forgotten valley.
Maybe. Heimdall refers to a valley or dale. This conjecture also makes
>
> Heimdall = Home-dale. What typically forms a dale? A river. Rivers have tributaries. I suspect that Heimdall's "mothers" were the tributary rivers in a long forgotten valley.
sense to me.
The sides of a valley can be said to be "looking down" on the
inhabitants. So maybe Heimdall was the local deity or totem of a people
who lived in a valley. The valley was their home. They thought of the
mountains that border their valley as watching and protecting them. The
tributaries may have been the "mothers" of the valley.
Bifrost could be the single river that leads to this ancestral
valley. It is too hot for frost giants to cross because it is warmer
than the freezing point of water. The river seldom freezes over.
Heimdall is also associated in some poems with a sword or a horn. The
sword or horn could be the main river that runs through the valley. It
river could also be the "head" of the valley. This is why the sword and the
head of Heimdell are interchangeable in one ken. There could even be
a mortal watchman set at the head of a river where the valley starts.
So maybe Heimdall is "whitest", as in "white water". The rapids in a
river are white. Or maybe it refers to the pale skin of people that live
in valleys. The "white skin" of "Caucasians" is associated with
Northern valleys, not cold whether.
People who live in deep valleys up north tend to be paler than
other people due to natural selection. The sun doesn't shine for very
long in valleys near the Arctic Circle. The people who have too much
pigmentation in their skin die from rickets, because their bodies can't
manufacture the vitamin D without sunshine. So maybe the people who first
worshiped Heimdall lived in a valley, and were paler than other people.
Your idea that Heimdall symbolizes a valley is very good. I am not
so sure anymore about Heimdall representing Polaris. Some of the poetry
related to Heimdall could be referring to a "valley home".
The two conjectures, Polaris or valley, are not mutually
exclusive. Here I am going to get excessively speculative. However,
can't Heimdall be symbolic of BOTH Polaris and a river valley?
People in a northern valley would be blocked off from most
of the stars. They would never see the planets, but they would see the
stars. The one star that valley people would reliably be able to see
all year long and all night long would be Polaris. So Polaris could
be seen as the "eye" of the valley. Polaris looks out for the people
of the valley, the way that Heimdall looks out for the Aesir.
Other stars (i.e., "gods") disappear from view. However, Polaris
watches over the people who live in valley all night long. The
planets would most easily be seen from the valley along tributaries
to the river. So the "mother" of Heimdall could be both rivers and
Wanderers.
All in all, I am now favoring the conjecture that Heimdall refers
to a "home valley". Thank you!
Hermerico
Jun 2, 2012, 11:50:03 PM6/2/12
to
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 3, 2012, 12:44:53 AM6/3/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:47:47 PM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
>
> > > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
> >
> > All Night Long!
> This would be impossible for the planet Venus.
> The orbit of Venus is inside the orbit of the earth.
> Therefore, as seen from earth, Venus always appears next
> to the sun. Therefore, Venus can not been seen when the sun
> is far beneath the horizon.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 3, 2012, 12:46:21 AM6/3/12
to
But I did see one a few Months back!
Went across the Sky did a 45, and Disappeared into a star!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 3, 2012, 12:47:42 AM6/3/12
to
And White, represents Purity because of the Lack of!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 3, 2012, 12:49:01 AM6/3/12
to
drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:36:49 PM UTC-4, Hermerico wrote:
> >
> > Heimdall = Home-dale. What typically forms a dale? A river.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 3, 2012, 12:50:46 AM6/3/12
to
The One I see, is like the Sierra's to America!
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 3, 2012, 8:41:11 PM6/3/12
to
On Saturday, June 2, 2012 11:50:03 PM UTC-4, Hermerico wrote:
> Have you ever skied the Alps?
No. How is this relevant?
> Have you ever skied the Alps?
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 3, 2012, 9:02:14 PM6/3/12
to
On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:44:53 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
This is true. So I do have a little problem visualizing
the sky during the Arctic winter.
Maybe you are telling me that the Venus sun is never far below
the horizon for a person North of the Arctic circle. The sun during
a diurnal day of the arctic Winter merely circles slightly below the
horizon. If Venus was slightly above the horizon at this time, then
it would be visible.
My problem with this image was the following. Venus, like the other
planets, is on the ecliptic plane. Therefore, I didn't think that Venus
could appear far Northward of the sun. I thought that in the Artic winter,
when the sun is below the horizon, Venus would be below the horizon most
of the diurnal day. At midnight, when the sun is farthest below the horizon,
Venus would also be below the horizon.
I know that the planets are not completely confined to one
plane. Therefore, it is possible that I am wrong about this. So I
have to ask the people here more knowledgeable about astronomy.
1) In the far North, can Venus be visible all night long?
I also have to ask you your experience.
2) Do you really live in or near the Arctic?
3) Do you really watch Venus throughout the Arctic night?
Although I don't have personal experience with the Northern
sky, I do know some "practical" astronomy. If you have more knowledge
and experience, please share it.
Of course, one can never know who one is talking to in the
Internet. I have this image of you huddled in your igloo, looking
through the doorway at Venus and typing on your laptop that is
powered by solar cells !-)
the sky during the Arctic winter.
Maybe you are telling me that the Venus sun is never far below
the horizon for a person North of the Arctic circle. The sun during
a diurnal day of the arctic Winter merely circles slightly below the
horizon. If Venus was slightly above the horizon at this time, then
it would be visible.
My problem with this image was the following. Venus, like the other
planets, is on the ecliptic plane. Therefore, I didn't think that Venus
could appear far Northward of the sun. I thought that in the Artic winter,
when the sun is below the horizon, Venus would be below the horizon most
of the diurnal day. At midnight, when the sun is farthest below the horizon,
Venus would also be below the horizon.
I know that the planets are not completely confined to one
plane. Therefore, it is possible that I am wrong about this. So I
have to ask the people here more knowledgeable about astronomy.
1) In the far North, can Venus be visible all night long?
I also have to ask you your experience.
2) Do you really live in or near the Arctic?
3) Do you really watch Venus throughout the Arctic night?
Although I don't have personal experience with the Northern
sky, I do know some "practical" astronomy. If you have more knowledge
and experience, please share it.
Of course, one can never know who one is talking to in the
Internet. I have this image of you huddled in your igloo, looking
through the doorway at Venus and typing on your laptop that is
powered by solar cells !-)
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 3, 2012, 9:57:00 PM6/3/12
to
On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:46:21 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
"Disappearing into a star" could be a meteor bursting into
a fireball. I conjecture that you saw a fragmented meteor skip on
the atmosphere and then explode.
Meteoroids that hit the atmosphere at an oblique angle can skip,
changing direction while going down. I saw such a thing in New
Mexico during a Perseid shower. They change direction and disappear.
Most meteoroids have a trajectory on the ecliptic plane. So
a meteor coming in near the pole would be hitting the atmosphere
at an oblique angle. So if you live in the arctic, seeing a meteor
skip in the atmosphere isn't surprising.
Meteoroids are not always solid. Some meteoroids are clumps of
loosely attached rocks. When two meteoroids collide, they could be reduced
to rubble. However, most of the rubble comes back together due to gravity.
So comets and meteoroids are not always solid.
A solid meteoroid could burn up all at once. This is what is usually
seen. However, many meteoroids and comets are really just conglomerations
of smaller rocks. They explode in midair.
Fireballs occasionally form from loose clumps of rock.
However, a loosely attached clump of rock can fall apart in the
atmosphere. The separate rocks burn up in the atmosphere, unless they
are large enough to hit the earth.
> Darwin123 wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:47:47, Darwin123 wrote:
> > >
> > > > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
> > >
> > > All Night Long!
> > That could not be Venus! It must have been a
> > Flying Saucer Spacecraft !-)
>
> Not Yet!
BTW: I was joking about the spacecraft.
>
> > On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:47:47, Darwin123 wrote:
> > >
> > > > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
> > >
> > > All Night Long!
> > That could not be Venus! It must have been a
> > Flying Saucer Spacecraft !-)
>
> Not Yet!
> But I did see one a few Months back!
> Went across the Sky did a 45, and Disappeared into a star!
Sounds like a meteor that is skipping the atmosphere.
> Went across the Sky did a 45, and Disappeared into a star!
"Disappearing into a star" could be a meteor bursting into
a fireball. I conjecture that you saw a fragmented meteor skip on
the atmosphere and then explode.
Meteoroids that hit the atmosphere at an oblique angle can skip,
changing direction while going down. I saw such a thing in New
Mexico during a Perseid shower. They change direction and disappear.
Most meteoroids have a trajectory on the ecliptic plane. So
a meteor coming in near the pole would be hitting the atmosphere
at an oblique angle. So if you live in the arctic, seeing a meteor
skip in the atmosphere isn't surprising.
Meteoroids are not always solid. Some meteoroids are clumps of
loosely attached rocks. When two meteoroids collide, they could be reduced
to rubble. However, most of the rubble comes back together due to gravity.
So comets and meteoroids are not always solid.
A solid meteoroid could burn up all at once. This is what is usually
seen. However, many meteoroids and comets are really just conglomerations
of smaller rocks. They explode in midair.
Fireballs occasionally form from loose clumps of rock.
However, a loosely attached clump of rock can fall apart in the
atmosphere. The separate rocks burn up in the atmosphere, unless they
are large enough to hit the earth.
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 4, 2012, 9:39:58 AM6/4/12
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On Saturday, June 2, 2012 11:50:03 PM UTC-4, Hermerico wrote:
> On Saturday, June 2, 2012 6:37:02 PM UTC-4, drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
...
> On Saturday, June 2, 2012 6:37:02 PM UTC-4, drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
So maybe Heimdall is "whitest", as in "white water". The rapids in a
> > river are white. Or maybe it refers to the pale skin of people that live
> > in valleys. The "white skin" of "Caucasians" is associated with
> > Northern valleys, not cold whether.
> > People who live in deep valleys up north tend to be paler than
> > other people due to natural selection. The sun doesn't shine for very
> > long in valleys near the Arctic Circle. The people who have too much
> > pigmentation in their skin die from rickets, because their bodies can't
> > manufacture the vitamin D without sunshine. So maybe the people who first
> > worshiped Heimdall lived in a valley, and were paler than other people.
> > Your idea that Heimdall symbolizes a valley is very good. I am not
> > so sure anymore about Heimdall representing Polaris. Some of the poetry
> > related to Heimdall could be referring to a "valley home".
> > The two conjectures, Polaris or valley, are not mutually
> > exclusive. Here I am going to get excessively speculative. However,
> > can't Heimdall be symbolic of BOTH Polaris and a river valley?
> > People in a northern valley would be blocked off from most
> > of the stars. They would never see the planets, but they would see the
> > stars. The one star that valley people would reliably be able to see
> > all year long and all night long would be Polaris. So Polaris could
> > river are white. Or maybe it refers to the pale skin of people that live
> > in valleys. The "white skin" of "Caucasians" is associated with
> > Northern valleys, not cold whether.
> > People who live in deep valleys up north tend to be paler than
> > other people due to natural selection. The sun doesn't shine for very
> > long in valleys near the Arctic Circle. The people who have too much
> > pigmentation in their skin die from rickets, because their bodies can't
> > manufacture the vitamin D without sunshine. So maybe the people who first
> > worshiped Heimdall lived in a valley, and were paler than other people.
> > Your idea that Heimdall symbolizes a valley is very good. I am not
> > so sure anymore about Heimdall representing Polaris. Some of the poetry
> > related to Heimdall could be referring to a "valley home".
> > The two conjectures, Polaris or valley, are not mutually
> > exclusive. Here I am going to get excessively speculative. However,
> > can't Heimdall be symbolic of BOTH Polaris and a river valley?
> > People in a northern valley would be blocked off from most
> > of the stars. They would never see the planets, but they would see the
> > stars. The one star that valley people would reliably be able to see
> > all year long and all night long would be Polaris. So Polaris could
> Have you ever skied the Alps?
I think that I got it now. Maybe you are suggesting that Heimdall
is the "whitest god" because high mountains have the whitest snow.
People whose home is a valley (Heim-dall) would see their "mountain gods"
as being the purest white. Hence the mountain gods would be the "whitest"
or the purest of the "gods".
Doug Freyburger
Jun 4, 2012, 3:29:51 PM6/4/12
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drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
snow. The snow melts and comes down nine (many) streams. The streams
merge to become one river. The river is in a valley. The home valley
akak Heimdall.
Very nice symbolism.
> Hermerico wrote:
>
>> Have you ever skied the Alps?
>
> I think that I got it now. Maybe you are suggesting that Heimdall
> is the "whitest god" because high mountains have the whitest snow.
> People whose home is a valley (Heim-dall) would see their "mountain gods"
> as being the purest white. Hence the mountain gods would be the "whitest"
> or the purest of the "gods".
Starting at the top of one mountain there is the whitest and brightest
>
>> Have you ever skied the Alps?
>
> I think that I got it now. Maybe you are suggesting that Heimdall
> is the "whitest god" because high mountains have the whitest snow.
> People whose home is a valley (Heim-dall) would see their "mountain gods"
> as being the purest white. Hence the mountain gods would be the "whitest"
> or the purest of the "gods".
snow. The snow melts and comes down nine (many) streams. The streams
merge to become one river. The river is in a valley. The home valley
akak Heimdall.
Very nice symbolism.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 5, 2012, 2:52:04 AM6/5/12
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drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:44:53 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:47:47 PM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
> > > >
> > > > All Night Long!
> > > This would be impossible for the planet Venus.
> > > The orbit of Venus is inside the orbit of the earth.
> > > Therefore, as seen from earth, Venus always appears next
> > > to the sun. Therefore, Venus can not been seen when the sun
> > > is far beneath the horizon.
> >
> > You have never been IN an arctic Winter!
> This is true. So I do have a little problem visualizing
> the sky during the Arctic winter.
> Maybe you are telling me that the Venus sun is never far below
> the horizon for a person North of the Arctic circle.
> The sun during
> a diurnal day of the arctic Winter merely circles slightly below the
> horizon. If Venus was slightly above the horizon at this time, then
> it would be visible.
>
> My problem with this image was the following. Venus, like the other
> planets, is on the ecliptic plane. Therefore, I didn't think that Venus
> could appear far Northward of the sun. I thought that in the Artic winter,
> when the sun is below the horizon, Venus would be below the horizon most
> of the diurnal day.
> At midnight, when the sun is farthest below the horizon,
> Venus would also be below the horizon.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 5, 2012, 2:52:40 AM6/5/12
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drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 12:46:21 AM UTC-4, Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole wrote:
> > Darwin123 wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:47:47, Darwin123 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Was this close to Dawn or close to Dusk?
> > > >
> > > > All Night Long!
> > > That could not be Venus! It must have been a
> > > Flying Saucer Spacecraft !-)
> >
> > Not Yet!
> BTW: I was joking about the spacecraft.
> > But I did see one a few Months back!
> > Went across the Sky did a 45, and Disappeared into a star!
> Sounds like a meteor that is skipping the atmosphere.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 5, 2012, 2:54:15 AM6/5/12
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Not Mutt Blonde!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 5, 2012, 2:55:09 AM6/5/12
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Kinda Kewl!
drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 5, 2012, 9:10:22 PM6/5/12
to
>
>
> > At midnight, when the sun is farthest below the horizon,
> > Venus would also be below the horizon.
>
> Then at 1 or 2, Come Back Up.
AM, right? Assuming this is the "Morning Star" time of year.
>
> > At midnight, when the sun is farthest below the horizon,
> > Venus would also be below the horizon.
>
> Then at 1 or 2, Come Back Up.
Okay, then there is a gap. You were wrong.
Venus is not visible "all night long" even in the
Arctic. There is a gap between 4 PM and 1 AM where Venus
is below the horizon. Furthermore, the asymmetry is caused by the
fact that Venus is not precisely on the ecliptic plane. It is
slightly off.
In any case, I recant (partly) my initial idea that Heimdall
referred to Polaris. I like the idea, introduced by some other
poster, that Heimdall refers to a valley.
Note that story tellers often learn to use the celestial
sphere as a prop. Storytellers often told their stories to
audiences in an outdoor setting. PowerPoint was unavailable to
them.
Even if Heimdall referred to a valley, it is possible that some
storytellers would use the stars and planets as a prop when describing
him. Suppose Heimdall referred to the god of a valley who was always
watching over the inhabitants. It would probably be easier to point to
Polaris then to draw a picture of a god "watching".
For that matter, one could use Venus as a prop. However, it sinks
below the horizon once in a solar day. Therefore, it seems to be an
unlikely symbol for Heimdall.
I go with the "home valley" interpretation of "Heimdall".
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 6, 2012, 2:00:43 AM6/6/12
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drose...@yahoo.com
Jun 7, 2012, 9:30:04 PM6/7/12
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solar disk?
Then it wouldn't be a Morning Star or an Evening Star. It would be
a Shadow Planet!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 9, 2012, 4:24:50 AM6/9/12
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No, you are being Polemic, while I am being Trilmech!/
root
Jun 11, 2012, 11:07:30 AM6/11/12
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>> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
>> a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
>> the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
>> the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
>> The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
>> a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
>> arrange the stars in different constellations.
>
> Good symbolism.
>> occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
>> a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
>> the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
>> the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
>> The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
>> a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
>> arrange the stars in different constellations.
>
>
>> 2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
>
> There's a legend that on the shoreline every nineth wave is a big one.
>> 2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
>
> That's the source I thought of.
I tend towards the mundane explanations on these types of things.
1. The most obvious: His mother, aunts, grandmothers and grand aunts -
all looking after him, all effectively acting as his mother.
2. Various foster mothers
3. Mother -> Grandmother -> Great Grandmother and so on up nine generations
4. Some kind of ancient DNA manipulation mixing from nine different
females (very unlikely)
Or, alternatively (psycological), Heimdall represents various states of
being in the human condition - and acheiving that state of being can
take one of many (or nine) ways - the way to get to that state of being
being a mother of that state.
For example - depression (something I know about - but not necessarily
something Heimdall represents) this state can be arrived at through
various means (symbolically many mothers can give birth to it).
Depression starts with a seed, which grows and gestates and is then born
as a state of being in the mind.
The other alternative is a nature-based reference.
golwg
Matthew
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Jun 12, 2012, 1:16:21 AM6/12/12
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root wrote:
> On 15/05/2012 17:46, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>
> >> I was wondering how Heimdall could have nine mothers. Then it
> >> occurred to me that this may refer to stars. Perhaps there was
> >> a poem concerning Heimdall that helped people navigate with
> >> the stars. Heimdall would be one important star or planet, and
> >> the mothers would be guide points to Polaris.
> >> The nine mothers may refer to a constellation. Not necessarily
> >> a currently recognized constellation. Different groups of people
> >> arrange the stars in different constellations.
> >
> > Good symbolism.
> >
> >> 2) What are your interpretations of the Nine Mothers of Heimdall?
> >
> > There's a legend that on the shoreline every nineth wave is a big one.
> > That's the source I thought of.
>
> I tend towards the mundane explanations on these types of things.
>
> 1. The most obvious: His mother, aunts, grandmothers and grand aunts -
> all looking after him, all effectively acting as his mother.
Like the Mabinogian Legends of the King, born of 2 Fathers!
Had to do the ROFL on that one, my other told me the Idea long ago about us
having a Child, and I Am, a Quinataure!
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