Where Did Frey Get His Antlers?
Darwin123
Frey's favorite weapon was a pair of antlers. Frey killed the
giant, Beli, using these antlers. He once had a magic sword, but he
gave it away to be with his love, Gerd. He replaced the sword with
antlers. However, I haven't found a story where he acquires the
antlers.
There is a legend on how Frey got his magic ship and his magic
boar, but not how he got his magic antlers. I think a story about how
he acquired the antlers would add some credibility to the story.
I want to tell some stories about Frey. However, I want to
arrange them in a way that appears logical to both believers and
nonbelievers.
I realize there are several levels of symbolism in the antlers.
Antlers can represent farming, sex, seasonal change or stone age
technology. I conjecture that it meant all of them to different story
tellers. However, I want the story to have internal consistency. I can
work any symbolism into any self consistent story. However, I would
like it to have self consistency.
I want to tell the story as though I believed it, not as merely
symbolism. If I don't find a traditional tale, I will make up one
myself. I will be respectful, but it will not be an "authentic"
story :-)
Doug Freyburger
>
> Are there any legends saying how Frey acquired his antlers?
None that I know.
> Frey's favorite weapon was a pair of antlers. Frey killed the
> giant, Beli, using these antlers. He once had a magic sword, but he
> gave it away to be with his love, Gerd. He replaced the sword with
> antlers. However, I haven't found a story where he acquires the
> antlers.
On the surface of the story it was a fall back option. Antlers are
everywhere annually where there are plenty of deer and they can be used
martial arts style as weapons similar to how Scots used canes.
> There is a legend on how Frey got his magic ship and his magic
> boar, but not how he got his magic antlers. I think a story about how
> he acquired the antlers would add some credibility to the story.
I think it's more interesting how he uses them. It's a lesson that
mundane objects that are lying around everywhere have uses far beyond
the obvious. That includes objects that are renewed annually.
> I want to tell some stories about Frey. However, I want to
> arrange them in a way that appears logical to both believers and
> nonbelievers.
Myths aren't expected to have a lgical order of events. That's part of
the appeal of myth.
Darwin123
> Myths aren't expected to have a logical order of events. That's >part of the appeal of myth.
It is a personal quirk of mine. This is part of my Asbergers
syndrome. I am disturbed by logical inconsistency. If I can't find a
logical bridge over some parts of the story, I may hesitate. The story
may not flow as smoothly.
I am considering using archaelogy to explain the antlers. I got
the main idea from you, but I will build on it.
Stone age farmers used antlers as picks. Some antlers were
buried in howes, others were sunk into bogs. So I will explain that
they were sacrifices to Freyr, or to the elves.
Another idea is using the idea that the realm of the "light
elves" was a type of afterlife for ancestor worshipers. When some
leaders of farming communities died, they were sometimes resurrected
as elves. This is supposedly how the name Olaf came about. Their
belongings were buried with them. Maybe some of the leaders started
out as farmers. If an antler-pick was buried with them, you would
expect it to be seen in their afterlife.
There must be lots of antler picks in Elf-land, in either
model. Freyr, when his sister was abducted, grabbed the most common
tool that was at hand in Elf-land. This tool was a pair of antlers.
1X2Willows
Doug Freyburger
>
> I am considering using archaelogy to explain the antlers. I got
> the main idea from you, but I will build on it.
> Stone age farmers used antlers as picks.
On that symbolic level he traded his sword that fights by itself
(raiding parties during the winter) for an antler (farming teams during
the planting season).
It works just as well as he traded his sword that fights by itself (a
single existing weapon no matter how powerful) for an antler (which is
used to make edged tools and weapons and whence is the ability to make
tools and weapons so it's an unlimited supply not just a single weapon).
Low till farming methods are becoming popular again. Using an antler as
a spike to plant seeds is about as ancient as it gets so it may be the
original low till farming method.
Darwin123
> Low till farming methods are becoming popular again. Using an antler as
> a spike to plant seeds is about as ancient as it gets so it may be the
> original low till farming method.
I did some research since you first told me about antlers as faring
implements. A lot of antler picks were found at Grime Graves, which is
conjectured to be a flint mine. The archaeologists are claiming that
this shows the presence of prehistoric farmers.
I am conjecturing that these antlers are really mining
implements. I am sure a flint miner would need a pick. If one finds a
lot of picks near a mine, then it is possible these picks were for
mining.
Is it possible that antlers were used as mining implements?
Doug Freyburger
>
> I did some research since you first told me about antlers as faring
> implements. A lot of antler picks were found at Grime Graves, which is
> conjectured to be a flint mine. The archaeologists are claiming that
> this shows the presence of prehistoric farmers.
> I am conjecturing that these antlers are really mining
> implements. I am sure a flint miner would need a pick. If one finds a
> lot of picks near a mine, then it is possible these picks were for
> mining.
> Is it possible that antlers were used as mining implements?
Sure. It's also known that antlers were used for fine chipping. The
mine could have included processing all the way to arrowheads and other
trade products. There would be an advantage to treating the manufacture
of the better tools and weapons as a trade secret to be kept locally.
I think both or all three would have been true. Pick for digging,
pressure point for flaking, spike for planting.
Darwin123
Do you think an antler could be used as a plowshare?
I am thinking of making an ironic moral to the story of Freyr and
Beli. I would like to reverse Issaih's message about "beating swords
into plowshares."
I also want to say, "Antlers were the power tool of the stone
age." It is almost a ken!
Doug Freyburger
>
> Do you think an antler could be used as a plowshare?
A planting spike and a plow share are different tools that serve
similar purposes.
> I am thinking of making an ironic moral to the story of Freyr and
> Beli. I would like to reverse Issaih's message about "beating swords
> into plowshares."
The story of Frey and Gerd does include a trade of a sword for a
planting tool.
Darwin123
> From Cernunnos/Herne/the Green Man, of course.
That is a pretty good conjecture from the anthropological point of
view. I agree that there is some sort of historic connection between
Frey and other fertility gods. However, I was looking for a story that
is actually embedded in the mythology.
When telling the story, I could say that Freyr also went by the
aliases Cernunnos, Herne, the Green Man, and Tyre of Baal. However,
the question could come up as to how Cernunnos, Herne, the Green Man
and Baal of Tyre obtained the antler horns.
When telling the story, I could say that the antlers were a
symbol of fighting over women. That is how the stags use their
antlers. I could say that the antlers were a symbol of sexuality,
since stage mate a lot. This may also be true. However, saying that it
is a symbol is like a naked admission that I don't believe the story.
I want to tell the story as though I were a believer in the
literal story. He came about the antlers in some way. It could be
magic. The best is if I can link it with a superstition. It has to be
rational or pseudorational.
I decided that I don't need to know how he obtained the magic sword
in the story. He probably got it from the dwarfs, who make almost
everything else in Norse mythology. However, the antlers need an
explanation.
I think that I made up an pseudorational explanation for the
antlers, anyway. It involves a little magic, but makes sense in terms
of ritual.
Doug Freyburger
>
> I want to tell the story as though I were a believer in the
> literal story.
Why? It's myth and therefore it's fiction. All myth is fiction
including the myth of the few religions that claim theirs are literally
true.
I repeat tales from Star Wars or comic books or whatever and I don't
believe their literal stories.
robert bowman
> Why? It's myth and therefore it's fiction. All myth is fiction
> including the myth of the few religions that claim theirs are literally
> true.
All representations of the world are fictions.
1X2Willows
I'll discuss these matters with you on the condition you give us a real
name, so any of us here will be empowered to check on who you are
and what you do with the imparted information.
If in doubt, consult with your nearest hassidic Rabbi. He wouldn't
discuss Judaism with an anonymous entity such as "1X2Willows"
either, and righfully so.
Darwin123
I, like many comic book fans, like continuity. In other words, I
like some time of historical consistency in the different stories. The
same goes in my science fiction and fantasy.
Okay, it is fiction. I admit that continuity is a personal taste
that I won't impose on others. However, I like imposing continuity on
myself when I tell the story.
Why do poets still like to write both sonnets or haiku? The
strict form has a certain beauty in it. I think Shelley wrote that the
constraints in the sonnet form offer freedom. He wrote this in the
form of a sonnet, of course ;-)
Darwin123
Since there may be religious sensitivity about my questions, I'll give
the information once.
Name: David L. Rosen
email address: drose...@yahoo.com
I think that is enough.
My story telling is a hobby, not a profession or job. There is
nothing on the net one can find to verify that I am a story teller. I
haven't been able to market it in any way :-(
I don't know how I can assure you of my uses for the information
that you give me. I am not looking to humiliate anybody. I don't know
if you would approve of it.
If you think humor is disrespect, then you won't like my stories. I
do like throwing in humor. I particularly like creative anachronisms.
To me, "Frey's magic sword was an automatic weapon." Odin accuses of
him of "general insubordination and incompetence." Gird refers to
Skinor as "a cute little fellow."
Would you like to know more ?-O
>
> If in doubt, consult with your nearest hassidic Rabbi. He wouldn't
> discuss Judaism with an anonymous entity such as "1X2Willows"
> either, and righfully so.
atheist. And in my darker past, I use to harass a Chassidic Rabbi who
I considered crazy on a Jewish Creationist Website.
I no longer harass anybody. I manage my anger with the help pf
prescription drugs.
Would you like to know more ?-O
Darwin123
to use the information. I gave my real name.
My email address was included. However, it wasn't printed out
fully. I am having difficulty unlocking my email address. The Google
software is giving me a hard time. I have second thoughts about giving
out my email. Do you really need my email address to trust me?
I will add some additional information could be used to
validate that I was once a rational person :-)
I am a physicist. I did research using terbium, spectroscopy, and
time resolved spectroscopy. The abstracts to some of my research
articles could be found on the web.
Doug Freyburger
> Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Why? It's myth and therefore it's fiction. All myth is fiction
>> including the myth of the few religions that claim theirs are literally
>> true.
>
> like some time of historical consistency in the different stories. The
> same goes in my science fiction and fantasy.
Some amount of continuity within a story is important or the tale does
not work. But like books in a library much is lost if too much work is
put into threading different stories together.
> Okay, it is fiction. I admit that continuity is a personal taste
> that I won't impose on others. However, I like imposing continuity on
> myself when I tell the story.
If you impose a single continiuty on the lore you lose much of the
poetic and symbolic impact of the individual stories. Think of the lore
like Twilight Zone or Outer Limits not like Babylon 5 or Jericho. Tell
the story and tell it intensely. Then move on to the next story.
There's a trade off between intensity of the individual tales and the
continuity of the entire library. Unlike the lore in the JCI family,
our lore is much more like Twilight Zone than it's like Babylon 5.
We do have folks who try to impose a single story line on our lore.
Rydberg is often dismissed because as a Victorian delusional because he
did that, though his books are a treasure trove of collected lore if you
discount his theories. This is a point we tend to entrench upon.
Trying to convert our lore from the style of Twilight Zone to the style
of Babylon 5 is a vicious crime to many of us. Do that and it loses as
much poetic and symbolic beauty as the JCI lore lost when theirs was
pushed like that.
> Why do poets still like to write both sonnets or haiku? The
> strict form has a certain beauty in it. I think Shelley wrote that the
> constraints in the sonnet form offer freedom. He wrote this in the
> form of a sonnet, of course ;-)
You should look at the poetry forms in the original Norse. Insanely
strict. Look at the Poetic Edda by Snorri Sturlsson. He wrote it as a
text book on hold to compose epic poems in the ancient tradition. There
are chapters about aliteration (ryhme was a very new invention),
kennings (a broader class than simile), tables of nick names, sound
bites from a wide assortment of stories (for use in new epic poems but
to us it's a dragon's hoard of lore bits).
I rather like the intensity of Twilight Zone as our modern strict form.
The story has to punch and punch hard at the heart of everyone from
children to grannies, fools to geniuses, unlettered to scholars. To do
that the story is free to stand on its own.
Darwin123
> Darwin123 wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Why? It's myth and therefore it's fiction. All myth is fiction
> >> including the myth of the few religions that claim theirs are literally
> >> true.
>
> > I, like many comic book fans, like continuity. In other words, I
> > like some time of historical consistency in the different stories. The
> > same goes in my science fiction and fantasy.
>
> Some amount of continuity within a story is important or the tale does
> not work. But like books in a library much is lost if too much work is
> put into threading different stories together.
>
> > Okay, it is fiction. I admit that continuity is a personal taste
> > that I won't impose on others. However, I like imposing continuity on
> > myself when I tell the story.
>
> If you impose a single continiuty on the lore you lose much of the
> poetic and symbolic impact of the individual stories. Think of the lore
> like Twilight Zone or Outer Limits not like Babylon 5 or Jericho. Tell
> the story and tell it intensely. Then move on to the next story.
>
> There's a trade off between intensity of the individual tales and the
> continuity of the entire library. Unlike the lore in the JCI family,
> our lore is much more like Twilight Zone than it's like Babylon 5.
The story that I am working on at the moment appears to have been
cobbled together by Snorri in terms of a common continuity. Snorri put
together two stories, claiming that they occurred at the same time.
They are the battle between Freyr and Beli, and the wooing of Gird by
Skinor. Both stories are supposed to be occurring simultaneously
during a war brought on by events in still a third story: how Thor
received his hammer.
The first two stories sound like typical "Summer Battles Winter"
stories. They may have started with lyrics to songs during solstice
rituals.
By putting them together in a sort of continuity, Snorri manages
to add emotional meaning to the stories which weren't there before. It
becomes one tale about war and diplomacy, as well as a story about the
seasons.
I am not trying to write a Freyr comic book. I would certainly
buy it if it comes out on the shelf, but I understand there are issues
other than straight entertainment. I am being respectful as I
understand respectful. However, sometimes the way you arrange the
stories means something.
1X2Willows
>>
> Would you like to know more ?-O
No thank you David, this shall do just fine. Appreciated and no hard
feelings, I hope. Forgive me for walking a rather cautious path where
the sharing of information is concerned because, as mentioned before,
the past has taught me some hard lessons in this respect and I would
be a right fool to ignore them.
Back to the subject
> When telling the story, I could say that Freyr also went by the
> aliases Cernunnos, Herne, the Green Man, and Tyre of Baal. However,
> the question could come up as to how Cernunnos, Herne, the Green Man
> and Baal of Tyre obtained the antler horns.
> When telling the story, I could say that the antlers were a
> symbol of fighting over women. That is how the stags use their
> antlers. I could say that the antlers were a symbol of sexuality,
> since stage mate a lot. This may also be true. However, saying that
> it is a symbol is like a naked admission that I don't believe the
> story. I want to tell the story as though I were a believer in the
> literal story. He came about the antlers in some way. It could be
> magic. The best is if I can link it with a superstition. It has to
> be rational or pseudorational.
> I decided that I don't need to know how he obtained the magic sword
> in the story. He probably got it from the dwarfs, who make almost
> everything else in Norse mythology. However, the antlers need an
> explanation.
> I think that I made up an pseudorational explanation for the
> antlers, anyway. It involves a little magic, but makes sense in
> terms of ritual.
Now keep in mind that I know very little about Asatru lore and like
yourself, I'm here to learn more than anything else. There is however
an aspect to this story which strikes me as almost 'universal' - when
compared with other pagan myth - and this is the transition of one of
the characters from a warrior-like identity to one of the spiritual advisor.
Simply put, "laying down the sword and picking up antlers instead"
may literally refer to the rather widespread custom of the time of wearing
a horned (or winged) head-dress or full facial mask for ceremonies
and rites which are probably best described as shamanic.
Don't take my word for it; I'm only guessing as the next guy but there
may be something to it. However, I would never go as far and claim
Freyr to be merely another alias for an alleged archetype which also
goes by the name of Cernunnos, Herne and the Green Man.
This sort of thinking and compartmentalising pre-christian spirituality
is rather a modern phaenomenon, although the foundation for it has
been laid already 2000+ years ago by the approach which is known
as Interpretatio Romana.
1X2Willows
Again, no thank you David, s'all good. Consider it done and please
relax... :-)
Doug Freyburger
>
> Simply put, "laying down the sword and picking up antlers instead"
> may literally refer to the rather widespread custom of the time of wearing
> a horned (or winged) head-dress or full facial mask for ceremonies
> and rites which are probably best described as shamanic.
Good symbolic meaning.
A similar one I usually point out is folks did raids in the winter,
planting in the spring. They did take up the spear when there was no
farming to do and take up the antler when they needed to plant seed.
Both should be valid meanings, as well as other meanings.
Darwin123
Furthermore, Freyr is the favorite god of farmers and the sword
the favorite weapon of raiders. So by taking up antlers, the raider
god is settling down to life as a farmer god.
Gird is making a similar transition. She starts out in the story
as an frost giant, who are raiders. She ends up as a farmers god.
One could call this a happy ending. However, there are some dark
sides to the transition.
1) Freyr ends up having to fight Beli anyway. Freyr kills Beli
with a primitive weapon, the weapons, rather than with a sword. If he
had remained a raider, he would be better prepared for Beli.
2) Freyr is going to die rather badly when Raganork comes. He is
going to wish he hadn't sold the magic sword. If he had remained a
raider, he would be better prepared for Surter.
3) Gird is almost killed by Skirnir, who is using the same magic
sword. She is threatened with black magic. She could have avoided this
if she behaved like a proper Frost Giant. If she had been more
suspicious, less hospital, or just ate him then she wouldn't be faced
with abduction, death and rape.
If I may force some anachronisms into the moral:
a) Disarmament is only a temporary solution.
b) Gun control by itself is not enough.
c) Talk gently but never give up your stick.
1X2Willows
You mentioned this interpretation before and yes, makes a lot of sense.
Needless to say seasonal aspects are always of importance; in fact
"Wotan's wild hunt" between the solar and lunar years (last chance before
the frost consumes everything) is still observed in the Alpine regions on
the European continent. Among those who are so inclined, of course.
> Both should be valid meanings, as well as other meanings.
Absolutely. One of the most appealing qualities of these tales, to me,
is the way they weave and mend oral history (real occurrences in the life
of an ancestor perhaps) with paradigm and hyperbole. They're like the
trout in streaming waters, always present and taunting but virtually
impossible to follow in a consecutive, linear fashion.
Doug Freyburger
>
> Gird is making a similar transition. She starts out in the story
> as an frost giant, who are raiders. She ends up as a farmers god.
> One could call this a happy ending. However, there are some dark
> sides to the transition.
Interesting that you use one of the alternative spellings. Gerd is more
common. There's no rule about using the various spellings just which
one is most common.
> 1) Freyr ends up having to fight Beli anyway. Freyr kills Beli
> with a primitive weapon, the weapons, rather than with a sword. If he
> had remained a raider, he would be better prepared for Beli.
Do you have a good justification for this stance? He switched from the
unproductive life of a raider who takes but does not make, to the
productive life of a farmer who makes. The end result is all of human
industry.
> 2) Freyr is going to die rather badly when Raganork comes. He is
> going to wish he hadn't sold the magic sword. If he had remained a
> raider, he would be better prepared for Surter.
All but a few die. It's not all that big a problem. This is a major
feature of Asatru - As long as we live well dying is not a big deal.
Especially not if we fight the good fight and die well.
> 3) Gird is almost killed by Skirnir, who is using the same magic
> sword. She is threatened with black magic. She could have avoided this
> if she behaved like a proper Frost Giant. If she had been more
> suspicious, less hospital, or just ate him then she wouldn't be faced
> with abduction, death and rape.
Skirnir is Frey's servant. That matters. If the magic of the servant
is to be feared then what of the magic of the master?
> If I may force some anachronisms into the moral:
> a) Disarmament is only a temporary solution.
> b) Gun control by itself is not enough.
> c) Talk gently but never give up your stick.
d) Take the long term approach and replace your stick with a better one,
even if it doesn't look all that impressive at first glance.
Darwin123
> Darwin123 wrote:
>
> Interesting that you use one of the alternative spellings. Gerd is more
> common. There's no rule about using the various spellings just which
> one is most common.
a land property. Therefore, I remember her name by thinking of the
word "Girth", which is the circumference of a persons body. I drop the
"h". I don't know whether this a a true cognate or not.
>
> > 1) Freyr ends up having to fight Beli anyway. Freyr kills Beli
> > with a primitive weapon, the weapons, rather than with a sword. If he
> > had remained a raider, he would be better prepared for Beli.
>
> Do you have a good justification for this stance? He switched from the
> unproductive life of a raider who takes but does not make, to the
> productive life of a farmer who makes. The end result is all of human
> industry.
by stone age farmers. Therefore, Freyr is using an outdated
technology. By the time Snorri wrote the prose Edda, a "real" warrior
used steel swords.
Freyr has to give up his giant killing sword to wed a giant, Gird.
A sword that kills automatically kills giants is a bit dangerous in a
household where the woman is a giant. However, not all giants have
settled down. Beli is still a raider. So, Freyr is forced to kill Beli
using a glorified plow.
I know the two stories probably started out separate. That is how
the stories are usually presented in popular literature. However,
Snorri placed them together. I got a hold of a translation of the
original poem.
Placing the two stories together adds some interest. It looks a
little like the movie, Pulp Fiction. Or like the movie, mystery train.
Several stories are occurring simultaneously in time, but linked by a
chain of causality that the characters are not aware.
I think the chain of causality was manufactured by sophisticated
poets such a Snorri. The stories had been originated in simpler times.
However, Snorri lived in a world that was far too complicated to be
represented by simple "fairy tales". His world in some ways was more
complicated than my world. So I don't think I am misrepresenting
Snorri (much) by telling a convoluted story.
>
> > 2) Freyr is going to die rather badly when Raganork comes. He is
> > going to wish he hadn't sold the magic sword. If he had remained a
> > raider, he would be better prepared for Surter.
>
> All but a few die. It's not all that big a problem. This is a major
> feature of Asatru - As long as we live well dying is not a big deal.
> Especially not if we fight the good fight and die well.
Snorri specifically says that Freyr is going to regret selling
his sword on the day of Raganork. Being run through by Surtur is thus
a down side. So I think I will make an ending emphasizing this down
side. I'll have Odin present the epilog, although the narrator
presents it in the poem. That is what happens when someone is
insubordinate.
I considered ending this story on a happier note. I had Frey
point out that he would have died in Ragnork anyway. This way, he has
lived a happy life at peace with at least one frost giant.
Furthermore, marrying Gird may have saved him. He could have died
before Ragnork, killed by a frost giant, if he hadn't given away his
sword.
I think the moral of the story is a trade off. One makes choices.
Each choice has good and bad aspects. While making good choices is
important, living bravely with ones choices is just as important.
>
> > 3) Gird is almost killed by Skirnir, who is using the same magic
> > sword. She is threatened with black magic. She could have avoided this
> > if she behaved like a proper Frost Giant. If she had been more
> > suspicious, less hospital, or just ate him then she wouldn't be faced
> > with abduction, death and rape.
>
> Skirnir is Frey's servant. That matters. If the magic of the servant
> is to be feared then what of the magic of the master?
The way I think of it, the sword was a problem. The negotiation
was almost self defeating. When proposing to a cute frost giant, maybe
you shouldn't carry a weapon that automatically kills frost giants.
>
> > If I may force some anachronisms into the moral:
> > a) Disarmament is only a temporary solution.
> > b) Gun control by itself is not enough.
> > c) Talk gently but never give up your stick.
>
> d) Take the long term approach and replace your stick with a better one,
> even if it doesn't look all that impressive at first glance.
I'll consider this one.
However, Snorri says that Freyr could have killed Beli with his
bare hands. Maybe Freyr didn't need a stick at all.
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
> Darwin123 wrote:
> > 2) Freyr is going to die rather badly when Raganork comes. He is
> > going to wish he hadn't sold the magic sword. If he had remained a
> > raider, he would be better prepared for Surter.
>
> All but a few die. It's not all that big a problem. This is a major
> feature of Asatru - As long as we live well dying is not a big deal.
> Especially not if we fight the good fight and die well.
To use some "cultural identity theft," one of the lines used by a
Klingon in some Star Trek movie was "It's better to die on your feet
than live on your knees." While true, it's also incomplete. It's
better still to live on your feet than die on your feet. The dead are
done. The living can do more.
It's good to die well, fighting the good fight. It's better still to
kick the bastard in the nads and stab the sumbitch in the back and
come out of the fight alive.
> Skirnir is Frey's servant. That matters. If the magic of the servant
> is to be feared then what of the magic of the master?
Insufficient data. Again, out-of-culture experience: Merlin was
Arthur's "servant," yet Arthur couldn't do dick with magic. Similarly,
history is replete with kings and presidents who have in their employ
scientists and engineers who created all manner of fantastical
weaponry or apparently magical devices. We all know the names
Archimedes and Heron of Alexandria and so on. But who were their
kings?
1X2Willows
Ha! Don't you commit verbal inflation to score a cheap point, lad.
Cultural identity theft aka cultural appropriation means what it means
and surely does not extend to the realm of artistic licence and fiction.
HTH
Dan
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
So... no actual comment on the points raised. Gotcha.
1X2Willows
Depends on whose KoolAid you imbibed.
;-)
1X2Willows
> On May 21, 5:42 pm, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>> scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>>> To use some "cultural identity theft,"
>>
>> Ha! Don't you commit verbal inflation to score a cheap point, lad.
>> Cultural identity theft aka cultural appropriation means what it
>> means and surely does not extend to the realm of artistic licence
>> and fiction.
>
>
> So... no actual comment on the points raised. Gotcha.
Only semantics, correct.
1X2Willows
Those of us who are into Siğr consider Arthur Merlin's bitch.
First he begs for trad support to come to power and then he does
a 180 and jumps the fence, accommodating the intruder's religion.
Sounds like something from tonight's news? Stay tuned!
scottl...@ix.netcom.com
> 1X2Willows wrote:
> > scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >> Merlin was Arthur's "servant,"
>
> > Depends on whose KoolAid you imbibed.
>
>
> First he begs for trad support to come to power and then he does
> a 180 and jumps the fence, accommodating the intruder's religion.
Thus stomping all over Merlin, yes? Who's The Bitch Now???
Darwin123
<scottlowt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On May 20, 2:58 pm, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Darwin123 wrote:
> > > 2) Freyr is going to die rather badly when Raganork comes. He is
> > > going to wish he hadn't sold the magic sword. If he had remained a
> > > raider, he would be better prepared for Surter.
>
> > All but a few die. It's not all that big a problem. This is a major
> > feature of Asatru - As long as we live well dying is not a big deal.
> > Especially not if we fight the good fight and die well.
Ragnork. That is not dying well. Dying well could have been shouting
out the name of Gird as he died. Maybe he realized that he could have
done better.
Obviously, Freyr could have done better. He should have been more
obedient and patient.
He shouldn't have disobeyed Odin by sitting on Odin's throne.
Although he wouldn't have found Gird, he wouldn't have created so many
problems.
Supposing that he was insubordinate anyway, he could have been
more patient. He didn't need to woo Gird right away. Freyr could have
waited until the grown ups got home, confessed to it, and started
negotiations with the Frost Giants. Odin would have found out anyway.
There is a chance that he could have gotten Gird if he worked within
the system. Then, he would still have the sword. He could have
survived Ragnork and helped Gird survive it too.
>
> To use some "cultural identity theft," one of the lines used by a
> Klingon in some Star Trek movie was "It's better to die on your feet
> than live on your knees." While true, it's also incomplete. It's
> better still to live on your feet than die on your feet. The dead are
> done. The living can do more.
>
> It's good to die well, fighting the good fight. It's better still to
> kick the bastard in the nads and stab the sumbitch in the back and
> come out of the fight alive.
>
> > Skirnir is Frey's servant. That matters. If the magic of the servant
> > is to be feared then what of the magic of the master?
fact, it was now Skirnor's sword. It no longer belongs to Freyr. So
Freyr isn't to be feared as much as Skirnor.
Suppose that Gird hadn't fallen in love with Freyr, but had been
frightened into coming with the sword. Once she came to Freyr, she
would be wed to a man that she didn't love. That has been established
as here greatest fear, greater than death itself. It was the fear of
having sex without love, as represented by the magic rune, which made
her try it out.
Gird would learn that her new husband doesn't have the magic
sword. He just has a pair of antlers. He really isn't as dangerous as
Skirnor made out. Her worse fear is being wed to a man she doesn't
love. So she decides to ask her father to kill Freyr. It starts
another war between Aesir and Juton. Or maybe Gird decides to kill
Freyr herself. Maybe she sets fire to Freyr while he sleeps.
This would be an entirely different myth. It would be like one of
those Greek tragedies where everyone is killed. So Freyr should count
his blessings rather than regret. The worse didn't happen to him.
So I agree with Snorri that Freyr has reason to regret. Not with
being infatuated with a Frost Giant. That part worked out fine.
However, he should have been more patient.
I tend to obsess over stories. Maybe I am over analyzing it.
However, I find this an interesting story the way Snorri presents it.
Doug Freyburger
>
> Snorri says that Freyr will regret giving away the sword at
> Ragnork. That is not dying well.
He dies in combat after having won at least one duel. The ancients
viewed that as dying well.
> He shouldn't have disobeyed Odin by sitting on Odin's throne.
Try viewing it as a military observation platform. He took a turn as
lookout when the standard lookout was away on travel.
> Suppose that Gird hadn't fallen in love with Freyr, but had been
> frightened into coming with the sword. Once she came to Freyr, she
> would be wed to a man that she didn't love. That has been established
> as here greatest fear, greater than death itself. It was the fear of
> having sex without love, as represented by the magic rune, which made
> her try it out.
The ancients knew that love grows in arranged marriages. To them the
idea of a marriage as a love match from the start would have been
bizzare. They may have known it to happen on occasion but it was not
the expected status.
> Gird would learn that her new husband doesn't have the magic
> sword.
Depending on which metaphor you use for sword. My statue of him has a
huge erection.
Darwin123
They are really statues of Skirnor. Remember, Skirnor took his
great big "sword." I have seen pictures of those statues, too.
Yes, I fully agree. The earlier versions of the Skirnor/Gerd story
were probably pornographic. It was probably a ritual that ended in a
sex act between Skirnor and Gerd. The sex act was supposed to
stimulate plants to grow by sympathetic magic.
The earlier versions of the Frey/Beli story were also probably
pornographic. It was probably a ritual that ended in a sex act between
Frey and Freya. The sex act was supposed to stimulate plants to grow
by sympathetic magic.
I will leave the weapon in question as a sword. The audience that I
am addressing will probably consider the original versions somewhat
vulgar. The earlier versions are just hypothetical anyway. The Snorri
version says "sword" and a sword it will remain !-)