Wicca-Asatru
Werner G.G. Von Otto
from since, a power problem is happening of wicca influrences contra Asatru,
with all kinds of accuses.
Just wundering, is there more problems on other sides
and orginations too?
Thank you all in advance
Werner Odinauge
Terry
found out that I was advertising in here last year to increase the
number of our seamansguild. You can guess what surfaced the same old
wrong accusations of pedophilia. Well even after it was established that
there was no merit to those accusations the damage was done.
Because of this it is questionable if the freehold survives. The worst
and only charge brought against me was I reported the success and the
activities in alt. asatru. I guess our wiccan spokesman found out and
now he is tearing the organization apart.
The wolf kindred was here before him and will be there after. He can
ride off on his nimbus 2000 broom.
The members do not like to be snooped on by their leaders and are
leaving out of fear because they may have looked at some "pictures"
in sex newsgroups. I advertised there years ago because I thought sex
sells. I resigned from the group to keep the peace. My accuser does not
have a pot to piss in and legal action would just make the Lawyers rich.
Horn's high to the gods
I let them deal with it
Wolfgang
Aemon
<von...@smartt.com> wrote:
>In an Asatru orgination, i am belonged and unsubscribed
>from since, a power problem is happening of wicca influrences contra Asatru,
>with all kinds of accuses.
>Just wundering, is there more problems on other sides
>and orginations too?
First off Asatruar tend to not care for Wicca at all. The reason for
this is that Wicca is contrived.
Bless
Nik
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Werner G.G. Von Otto" <von...@smartt.com> wrote in message
news:v1ukj1p...@corp.supernews.com...
Wiccans do not fit in.
http://www.kith-of-yggdrasil.org/spiritual_overview.htm
FFF
Dirk
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Hail to Heidi
Here a likeminded tribe!
Hail Werner!
Seeing as the Wolf Kindred and Clan Wolf both agree
on the idea of building a traditional community,I thought I
would tell youabout this new list I just joined. Its a US
list but still very interesting!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/asatrutribes/
Hope to see you there !
Mike-Wulfskaar rave...@knet.ca
Ciro
I congratulate you on the restraint it must have taken to describe wicca
only as "contrived."
-C
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Thank you for the URL
http://www.kith-of-yggdrasil.org/spiritualoverview.htm
We using your Havermal for a long time
The best around-Thanks to You!
Here one URL on Wicca-Asatru thema
http://www.servo/com/shea/germusa/walpurgi.htm.
The birthsnight of the Freefold in BC
The Horns High to the Gods
Werner
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Have no URL for this side
The Pentagram and the Hammer
1994 Free Spirit Festival
Devyn Gillette(Wicca) and Lewis Stead of Asatru Today.
Its very interesting
Werner
Dan Miller
Dirk Bruere at Neopax wrote:
> We get around that problem by having a statement of what we believe.
> Wiccans do not fit in.
Hail Dirk!
Curiously, how do you deal with outlaws and oathbreakers?
-Dan
Dan Miller
I would hardly call those anything closely resembling "facts".
-Dan
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E204F8F...@saltspring.com...
We don't, although in theory any complaint can be brought before the Althing
and the perp kicked out by common agreement if that's what the membership
decides.
FFF
Dirk
Hulk A. Hercules
> You can guess what surfaced the same old
> wrong accusations of pedophilia. Well even after it was established that
> there was no merit to those accusations the damage was done.
Do you really wish to re-open this issue? I'm quite willing to drop it
after this post unless provoked- in which case I will post all details
available in public archives. Heidi, I know you view yourself as his
defender, but I would suggest that you let him decide for himself if
he wants it dropped now or dragged back into the light. I will
consider provocational or insulting posts by Schmidt's friends as
reason enough to detail his suspicious activities as revealed by his
own words, at length, in detail, and with full references. Otherwise,
I will simply direct interested parties to research the matter as
below...
For those who wish to judge for themselves whether the "accusations"
of pedophilia (for the most part, these took the form of quoting
Schmidt himself) have been proven to be without merit, a Google search
of Schmidt's previous posts to various newgroups, including explicitly
pedophile newsgroups (sch...@smartt.com and sch...@deepcove.com)
will prove worthwhile (helpful keywords are pedophilia and gay).
In religious organizations as in any, know with whom you are
associating yourself.
Eric
PS- I wasn't involved in the organizational difficulties being
described by Schmidt, and know nothing of this, but I'm not about to
stand by while he asserts that "it was established that there was no
merit to those accusations." His own words (which he calls
"accusations" when quoted by others) stand, and no adequate
explanation has ever been offered to my knowledge.
Terry
in those groups, however there has never been a gay sail cruise in my
lifetime. there has never been any pedophilia on my part. And what ever
I posted is not illegal and what I may have looked at is not illegal. So
please let it be. We have been there 7 month ago.
Terry
Rorik
Interesting? To whom? Asatruar have been laughing at this childish
gibberish for almost a decade now, although Wiccans seem to find it
very profound. So why are you banging the tin drum for Wiccatru,
anyway?
regards,
rorik
Grimner
-Grimner-
Doug Freyburger
>
> from since, a power problem is happening of wicca influrences contra Asatru,
> with all kinds of accuses.
Mix Wicca and Asatru, or Wiccans and Heathens, and this is guaranteed to
happen within a year.
For that matter, it doesn't even take mixing. Put enough Heathens OR Wiccans
together and you are completely certain to get power issues. It goes with
the territory. In fact, the issue isn't unique to religions. It happens in
everything from hobbies through business, it just happens with smaller
populations in those two religions and starting with about 1 person if you
attempt to mix.
> Just wundering, is there more problems on other sides and orginations too?
Every time any type of mixture is attempted, membership or practice.
Note that cross attending events that are explicitly Wiccan or explicitly
Heathen isn't what I mean. There aren't any problems cross attending a
Catholic church event, either. Cross attending isn't mixture. Deliberately
accepting members cross the border is mixing. Deliberately using methods
across the board is mixing.
Note that many use methods across the board as a temporary fix until a
better/more-native method is uncovered or devised. The Wiccan Circle is a
Blot reworked for their own ends. The Hammer Invocation is a Wiccan Circle
reworked for our own ends. Where the border is is a matter of personal
tastes.
Dan Miller
Greetings,
I am Mikhail Heimdallson, elected Freyr for the B.C. Asatru Freehold.
As members of the Freehold have only just become aware of many of the
questions regarding the Freehold and its relationship to Mr. Terry
Schmidt being raised on this and other newsgroups recently and within
the last six to nine months, it has been resolved, with respect to the
parties involved, to shed some light in this subject.
We would otherwise not make the general public privy to details of the
membership status of any member, but Mr. Schmidt's recent statement on
the matter here, and the resurfacing of other questions of import here,
have necessitated this statement.
We would like to make clear that Mr. Schmidt's recent resignation from
the Freehold had nothing directly to do with any findings regarding
allegations or suggestions of sexual impropriety on his part. Nor would
we publicly speculate without legal council as to their validity.
During his tenure among us he has given us no reason to believe any of
said suggestions or allegations of impropriety.
Mr. Schmidt was asked to answer to a number of other very serious
bylaw infractions and chose instead to resign all posts, and his
membership, in the BC Asatru Freehold.
Any suggestion of a heathen-hunt led by witches, or that he is being
again persecuted for his sexual preferences is a baseless hyperbole,
and probably just a vent of frustration on the part of Mr. Schmidt.
Please understand that in our minds THE safety of children has always
been, and will ever be one of our FOREMOST concerns.
If there are any further questions or concerns regarding the Freehold,
do not hesitate to contact me personally.
Mikhail Heimdallson, free...@houseravenspeak.com
Freyr for the B.C. Asatru Freehold, wi...@yahoogroups.com
-(Posted by Dan Ralf Mjolnir, Law Speaker, BCA Freehold)-
Dan Miller
Hailsa Doug!
Interesting observation, but in this specific case, a moot point as the
alleged Wiccan/Asatru conflict appears, to me at least, to rather be
simply a diversionary tactic.
Hale be,
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Werner G.G. Von Otto
It will be a Eyeopener to many in the Asatru
The Horns high to the real Asatru Gods
Wermer Odinauge
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E236F99...@saltspring.com...
Dan Miller
Sure. I was a Wiccan between 1985 and 1988, then I swore Tru. I have
been a practicing Heathen for the last 15 years.
Big honking deal... Big eye-opener anyone?
Werner, you are just trying to divert attention away from the truth.
-Dan
Aemon
<danm...@saltspring.com> wrote:
>Hailsa Doug!
>
>Interesting observation, but in this specific case, a moot point as the
>alleged Wiccan/Asatru conflict appears, to me at least, to rather be
>simply a diversionary tactic.
By whom?
Nik
Dan Miller
Hi Nik,
As described in "From the BC Asatru Freehold (WAS) Re: Wicca-Asatru" a
few posts back...
-Dan
Grimnir
>
> Hailsa Doug!
>
> Interesting observation, but in this specific case, a moot point as the
> alleged Wiccan/Asatru conflict appears, to me at least, to rather be
> simply a diversionary tactic.
>
> Hale be,
> Dan Ralf Mjolnir
>
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
For myself, I started looking into Wiccan literature back in the 80's. It
was interesting for a while, but then I started to question what the
authority for the assertions was. I started to do some research, and found
that the whole thing was a fabrication. That's all good and well, but for
the fact that it is simply another false account of the Heritage of the
people of Europe created to replace the existing one.
Now, perhaps I started with the wrong author. I was reading _Dreaming the
Dark_ but someone who calls herself "Starhawk". But, then I attended a
presentation put on by some Wiccans a few years later. By that time I was
well aquainted with the with the Eddas. The whole presentation was
basically "back in to good old days there was the Goddess". Then came the
Aryans with their "One God the Father". Ironically the people giving the
presentaion asserted they were of mixed Jewish and 'gentile' heritage.
I don't have an issue with that, per se. But for them to come and tell me
that my ancestors were the ones who imposed the One-God-the-Father who
cared naught for the Eather was the hight of perfidy.
In what follows remove the reference to the One-God-the-Father, and take it
as the fundamental starting point for Heathenism:
*************************************************************************
But not the less did JHVH bestow upon them the gifts of the earth: wealth
and happiness, for their enjoyment in the world; IOHVH increased also their
wisdom, so that they knew all earthly matters, and every phase of
whatsoever they might see in the air and on the earth.
One thing they wondered and pondered over: what it might mean, that the
earth and the beasts and the birds had one nature in some ways, and yet
were unlike in manner of life. In this was their nature one: that the earth
was cleft into lofty mountain-peaks, wherein water spurted up, and it was
not needful to dig longer for water there than in the deep valleys; so it
is also with beasts and birds: it is equally far to the blood in the head
and the feet. Another quality of the earth is, that in each year grass and
flowers grow upon the earth, and in the same year all that growth falls
away and withers; it is even so with beasts and birds: hair and feathers
grow and fall away each year. This is the third nature of the earth, that
when it is opened and dug up, the grass grows straightway on the soil which
is uppermost on the earth. Boulders and stones they likened to the teeth
and bones of living beings. Thus they recognized that the earth was quick,
and had life with some manner of nature of its own; and they understood
that she was wondrous old in years and mighty in kind: she nourished all
that lived, and she took to herself all that died. Therefore they gave her
a name, and traced the number of their generations from her. The same
thing, moreover, they learned from their aged kinsmen: that many hundreds
of years have been numbered since the same earth yet was, and the same sun
and stars of the heavens; but the courses of these were unequal, some
having a longer course, and some a shorter.
From things like these the thought stirred within them that there might be
some governor of the stars of heaven: one who might order their courses
after his will; and that he must be very strong and full of might. This
also they held to be true: that if he swayed the chief things of creation,
he must have been before the stars of heaven; and they saw that if he ruled
the courses of the heavenly bodies, he must also govern the shining of the
sun, and the dews of the air, and the fruits of the earth, whatsoever grows
upon it; and in like manner the winds of the air and the storms of the sea.
They knew not yet where his kingdom was; but this they believed: that he
ruled all things on earth and in the sky, the great stars also of the
heaven, and the winds of the sea. Wherefore, not only to tell of this
fittingly, but also that they might fasten it in memory, they gave names
out of their own minds to all things. This belief of theirs has changed in
many ways, according as the peoples drifted asunder and their tongues
became severed one from another. But all things they discerned with the
wisdom of the earth, for the understanding of the spirit was not given to
them; this they perceived, that all things were fashioned of some essence.
************************************************************************
Eorthe Mathir - Written some time before 1990
Spinning cosmic dew-drop
Molten sphere of magic star-dust
Gracefully revolving 'round
A brilliant ball of fire
Fragile eggshell surface
Shrouded in the fabric
Of life's mystic tapestry
Infinite in facets
The deepest mystery
Four billion years behind us
In this instant
We now find us
Waking for the first time
In all our history
On time's line we seek to find out
In mind's eye we only find doubt
Is this to be or not to be
forever...
A wasteland sphere of desert
Forgotten in its orbit
'Round a tiny point of light
In the infinite abyss
Nothing can change
The way I feel
No, this is a nightmare
That just can't be real
The inmates are running
This madhouse of fools
Whimsical tyrants
Who play by no rules
Decadent habits
That tear at the threads
When the weave is unraveled
The morals are dead
Only wanton destructions
Rules life such as this
In the pain and the hunger
Lives true hopelessness
This feeling is growing
Oh, so deep inside
An ill wind is blowing
There's nowhere to hide
Am I just another fool
Fighting for his time to rule
A madman with a master-plan
To turn this garden in to sand
Can you say what I should do
I want to walk the path that's True
To build a dream for me and you
It seems I've walked so far alone
Out here in the danger zone
I fear my heart may turn to stone
Finite yet unbounded
Seems a problem close at hand
Soon to many faces
And far to little land
Must just one of us survive
Provided all the others die
Or can we not somehow reside
All in peace here side-by-side
--
Shield: Azure a chevron ermine between three garbs (wheat staves) or.
Crest: A griffin segreant (in place of golden hind) proper winged gules
holding between the talons a helmet or.
Motto: Nil Conscire Sibi (My conscience does not bother me)
Dan Miller
Hail again Doug!
To take this interesting thread and run with it, as Speaker for the
British Columbia Asatru Freehold I can tell you the Freehold's approach.
I hope my previous cryptic statement did not seem too rude.
We accept anyone who has an Asatru or Heathen member as a sponsor, as a
non-voting member, called "Friend". Freehold Friends promise to abide
by Freehold Law at Freehold events.
Voting Freehold members, called Freeholders, swear or repeat their Oath
of Troth with the Eld Gods as a part of their membership oath. Only
heathens who are sworn Tru may vote on any matter, at Thing, Althing, etc.
The Freehold has numerous Gilds which teach various aspects of Germanic
religion, culture or craft, including the Weoh Gild (for Godhi's,
Gythia's, and Weofodthane's), the Warrior's Gild, the Craftsmans and
Brewers, Skalds and Rune Gilds and so on. Most of these Gilds offer
classes and workshops to anyone, including the public. Nevertheless,
some Gilds require their own Gild Members to be sworn Tru, and certainly
ALL Gild Leadership must be Tru themselves.
All the Gild's Leaders, called Drightens, together make up the Freehold
Witan. Also on the Witan are the Althing-elected Speaker, Hoarder,
Writer and of course our chieftan elect, the Freyr or Freya. All
Freehold Witan swear an additional Oath with all sorts of extraoridinary
responsibilities and consequences, but which include to "keep the
Freehold ever Tru".
Now in terms of how I have found that sworn Heathens and Asatruar, who
alone carry the votes, get along with the very small minority of Wiccans
who happen to be non-voting Friends of the Freehold... I would say
generally fairly well, but I would acknowledge occasional communications
difficulties. Not that I would speak for them, but the Wiccans who
remain as Freehold Friends must be as thick-skinned and stubborn as any
Asatruar to survive the heat anyway... ;^) Actually once it is
established that the Wiccans are Friends of the Freehold and are here in
the most respectful spirit possible, to learn, and once the Heathen
vocabulary and sensibilities are understood, the problems tend to disolve.
Entrenched in Law and Oath is the commitment to ensure the Freehold
retains a purely Germanic focus for all time.
The Freehold's Godhi, who leads our Weoh Gild, or the Freyr, leads blot,
husel and sumble for all the holy-tides. We perform some rites for
Freehold members only, and other rites open to members of the public,
but in any event, the Weoh Gild, Oathsworn to retain is Heathen focus,
the rites experienced at any Freehold blot, husel and sumble will be as
authentically Germanic as humanly possible given our ever increasing understanding.
All the Gilds share that same comittment to the Germanic culture, and
its accurate portrayal, to the best of our present knowledge, for all time.
Thus we believe that we have sufficiently safeguarded the Freehold, with
Law, Oath and the privilege of voting, so that we can rest secure in the
knowledge that our we will not, EVER, be turned into a Wiccan
organization. We have literally a few Wiccans friends, that is true,
but the Freehold is and always shall be forever Tru.
As to "power-struggles" I could not say... My observation would be that
a true Heathen understands that action speaks louder than words, and is
willing to roll up his sleeves and get the job done, and fulfils their
holy oaths, and so on, whereas the less serious minded are more apt to
complain and whine alot, break their promises and make a lot of noise...
but I have noticed these traits in both those who claim to be Wiccan and
those who say they are Asatru, so I would not paint it as an
Asatru-Wicca issue, so much as it is an issue of the difference between
the real-deal or a fallow facimile.
Troth Ever!
Dan Miller,
Law Speaker,
Drighten, Skalds Gild,
Drighten, Weoh Gild,
Hyrde, Warriors Gild
British Columbia Asatru Freehold
Heidi Graw
> [forward]
>
> Greetings,
>
> I am Mikhail Heimdallson, elected Freyr for the B.C. Asatru Freehold.
>
> We would otherwise not make the general public privy to details of the
> membership status of any member, but Mr. Schmidt's recent statement on
> the matter here, and the resurfacing of other questions of import here,
> have necessitated this statement.
>
> We would like to make clear that Mr. Schmidt's recent resignation from
> the Freehold had nothing directly to do with any findings regarding
> allegations or suggestions of sexual impropriety on his part. Nor would
> we publicly speculate without legal council as to their validity.
> During his tenure among us he has given us no reason to believe any of
> said suggestions or allegations of impropriety.
>
> Mr. Schmidt was asked to answer to a number of other very serious
> bylaw infractions and chose instead to resign all posts, and his
> membership, in the BC Asatru Freehold.
My speculative thoughts as I'm watching the events unfold as per posts in
this newsgroup:
And so we have another example of a "Zero-Tolerance" policy for minor human
errors, misjudgements, and otherwise small infractions. One crusader has
successfully managed to cast doubt upon an Asatru member by laying serious
allegations without providing *evidence* that would prove an *indictable
crime.*
Eric succeeded in creating enough of a stir within the B.C. Asatru Freehold,
that the leaders of that org had no choice but to find some trumped up
charges to rid themselves of a doubtful member. Eric's public crusade would
have made it very difficult for BC Freehold to attract new members. So, to
avoid that, they found a few by-law infractions to rid themselves of Terry.
The message: absolute "Zero-Tolerance!" Must be nice to have such a
perfect membership that everyone in it feels comfortable enough that no
other outsider could possibly cast them in a bad light. How does it feel to
have such an unblemished character?
So, let's take a hypothetical member...someone who *is* of questionable
character...you don't know if this person is a real pedophile or not. There
is some doubt. What would be the best way to handle such a situation if you
truly are concerned about the welfare of children? If you retain such a
member, and the leaders are aware of it, these leaders could supervise and
watch that member. He/she remains under that watchful eye. If you cast
this person out and let him/her roam freely around, and such a person truly
is a pedophile, you've just put children outside your community at risk.
What I would have rather seen is the following: Eric had questions about
Terry's character. Rather than malign Terry *publicly*, Eric should have
just contacted Dan or any other B.C. Freehold leader and raise the alert
"privately." B.C. Freehold's public image would then not have been
tarnished. Eric would have to *trust* that Dan would be dealing with the
issue and kept up communication. Watching Terry and putting up tighter
safeguards around B.C. Freehold children, would have allowed Terry
opportunities to participate in wholesome activities, while B.C. Freehold
could have continued to accept more members. Eric's public meddling created
an impossible situation. A *possible* pedophile is now on the loose and
B.C. Freehold allowed an outsider to cast aspersions against its own
members. I don't like the *cure* of what has happened. It greatly saddens
me. May this be a lesson for us all.
Take care,
Heidi
Werner G.G. Von Otto
In your mail monday, june 24, 2002 at 11:34PM
Brockenhof is my place, named after the mountain
or Brocken in Germany where the witches were said to dance around their
fires on Valpurgisnacht(night)(Dan)
Starting Night For the BC-Freehold
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/walpurgi.htm
.
My tuppence: Please done armour before reading
Weas hal!
One former Founding Member of this night, Later:
I would hope that we can salvage something out of all this, by being wise
for a change rather than ingenius,but alot of damage has already been done.
And perhabs
there is too close an association in the minds of some
the Dan and the Freehold are the same, or at least
that the Freehold is Dan's,or that Dan is the "Captain"
of the "USS Freehold". If that perseption is not shed,
I'm sure that the Freehold will be Dan's.... and good
riddance if you catch my meaning here.
H-wolf , Thursday, August 01, 2002 /5:27PM
section 12,Freehold law, which is actually the first bit of law ever voted
upon by the founding members of the
Freehold, all now presenting this list, on our founding blot for
Valpurgisnacht on April 28,2002
So far i know: 1Truhsworn Member and 1 wicca
believing Fosterman attached to Dans household.
Werner
If memory serves, I should have stated clearly that
this was a member's only report and should not be
published, that I was going to create a condensed version for puplication to
post on other list.(35 subscribed)
I through I recall doing so, but now I cannot find it in the archives. If I
didn't then I am in part perhaps also
responsible for the debacle, because I did not
include that disclaimer.
Dan Miller, Saturday, 04, 2003/6:16PM
The Wolf Kindred joined the BC- Asatru-Freehold
at the founding at the Summer Althing,, as full Bloodsworn Members on
August, 10/2252 Runic Time
at Ravensnest, Tynehead Park,BC-CA-Vinland.
The Horns up to our real Gods of the Asatru
and not playacting
Werner Odinauge.
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E237F2F...@saltspring.com...
Werner G.G. Von Otto
From Dan Miller Saturday,January 04, 2003 12:03PM
Hail Werner
A little bait Ilaid out last night, an action Imade unilaterally, although
thesekinds of statements of fact I
have been regularily making on othe(other)lists as a matter
as Speaker.
I am curious to see if anyone tries to bring up any
roumours by our first actual "official" statement on that newsgroup. so far
so good...I'll let you know if
Hercules shows up.
Hele be,
Dan
Wundering what happen to this message, withdrawn?
Not 1 Hit, The message explains it self!
Werner
"Heidi Graw" <heid...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:4BQU9.35428$sV3.1...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Dan Miller
> Wundering what happen to this message, withdrawn?
> Not 1 Hit, The message explains it self!
> Werner
Werner,
So much for drpping the subject.
It explains itself only to a fertile imagination. You provide no context.
The post I was refering to was about Things and Althings, and it was our
first official appearance on this group. I was indeed interested to see
if anyone here remembered the big flap of last summer which Terry
somehow neglected to mention to the rest of us. Terry himself was the
first to bring it up herem since then in fact.
I guess you think it is an honourable thing to do... to forward private
Freehold member communications to a public newsgroup?
All we have ever asked is that he answer to his wrongdoings at Thing.
He refuses. What more can be said? Nothing. His choice. No hunts, no
descrimination, no "zero-tolerance"... that's all, frankly, a bunch of
bologna designed to cloud the real issue.
His choice, if he wishes to come back, is to meet at Thing and settle
the matter like a man instead of grandstanding in front of the world to
see.... it is entirely his choice.
We have made our statement, as posted by Mihail-Freyr, and we stand
behind it with the same commitment we gave our oaths.
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Law Speaker
BC Asatru Freehold
"Werner G.G. Von Otto" wrote:
>
Dan Miller
With all due respect, with so little facts at your disposal, all
speculation and missing major points which, for the sake of causing
Wolfgang any more embarrassment, or violating anyone else's rights, do
not need to be dragged out on this group. Major omissions which
indicate that you are getting a decidedly biased version of the facts.
May I respectfully submit that you investigate other sides of the story
with more vigour before speaking out about events of which you have no
knowledge other than, obviously, what Terry has selectively told you.
We have no reason to repeat what was already stated in Mikhail's post
and which is the truth and we stand by it as sure as by by our Oaths
before the Gods.
His bylaw infractions, and failed oaths, which were far from "minor",
again have nothing to do with his sexuality, implied or in actuality, as
already stated. It is a non-issue.
He was offered the opportunity to answer to the violations according to
tradition, at Thing, and he refused, and quit instead. It was not
"zero-tolerance", as he seems to have led you to beleive, but rather he
choose to leave rather than face his complainants at Thing. Rather than
take any responsibility, he simply left.
As already stated, if he wished to return, he will be asked to take
responsibility for these bylaw infractions and oath-breakings face to
face before the members and before the Gods according to tradition.
We would like to move on and get our work done, which includes serving
the community, teaching workshops, holding the tides. Unless Terry
wishes to come to Thing, which is really our only requirement, I for one
do not wish to spend anymore of my volunteer time on the issue.
We have made our statement, as posted by Mikhail Meimdallson, and stand
by it.
Troth Ever,
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Law Speaker
BCA Freehold
Heidi Graw
> Heilsa Heidi!
>
> With all due respect, with so little facts at your disposal, all
> speculation and missing major points which, for the sake of causing
> Wolfgang any more embarrassment, or violating anyone else's rights, do
> not need to be dragged out on this group. Major omissions which
> indicate that you are getting a decidedly biased version of the facts.
So...don't these major omissions indicate to you that Wolfgang was *not*
divulging your cult's secrets?
>
> He was offered the opportunity to answer to the violations according to
> tradition, at Thing, and he refused, and quit instead.
And good for him! He put the interests of the group ahead of himself.
Besides, why should he submit to your organization's kangaroo court? If he,
in some general terms, wanted to find out from us how to deal with the b.s.
that's going on, why not? That's *part* of the reason we have this
newsgroup....to learn about how better to co-operate with petty fiefdom
keepers.
It also seems to me you guys could stress a little more of the "Free" rather
than the "hold." When are you guys going to put up a web-page and post
minutes and agendas of your meetings so that the general public will know
something about your society? I find there are all too many Asatru *secret*
and closed societies...just what are you hiding? And just what kind of
support to you offer members if they should find themselves falsely accused
by some outsider, a non-member? Offer them Ordeal by Fire?....
Take care,
Heidi
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
>
> >"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3E23EE9C...@saltspring.com...
> > Heilsa Heidi!
> >
> > With all due respect, with so little facts at your disposal, all
> > speculation and missing major points which, for the sake of causing
> > Wolfgang any more embarrassment, or violating anyone else's rights, do
> > not need to be dragged out on this group. Major omissions which
> > indicate that you are getting a decidedly biased version of the facts.
>
> So...don't these major omissions indicate to you that Wolfgang was *not*
> divulging your cult's secrets?
>
> >
> > He was offered the opportunity to answer to the violations according to
> > tradition, at Thing, and he refused, and quit instead.
>
> And good for him! He put the interests of the group ahead of himself.
> Besides, why should he submit to your organization's kangaroo court? If
he,
Because that is the most democratic and fair method we can devise of giving
someone a hearing.
Or maybe you'd simply prefer a 'management decision'?
> in some general terms, wanted to find out from us how to deal with the
b.s.
> that's going on, why not? That's *part* of the reason we have this
> newsgroup....to learn about how better to co-operate with petty fiefdom
> keepers.
>
> It also seems to me you guys could stress a little more of the "Free"
rather
> than the "hold." When are you guys going to put up a web-page and post
> minutes and agendas of your meetings so that the general public will know
> something about your society? I find there are all too many Asatru
*secret*
> and closed societies...just what are you hiding? And just what kind of
> support to you offer members if they should find themselves falsely
accused
> by some outsider, a non-member? Offer them Ordeal by Fire?....
Things are typically open to *all* members.
However, the question of posting the minutes of a Thing can cause legal
problems because they often involve an accusation of impropriety.
FFF
Dirk
Dan Miller
Heidi,
It saddens me that you would jump to such misguided conclusions based on
such an incomplete set of data. If you have seen all the material
involved in this case, you might not be so quick to defend him. To
cover it all would likely take several days and thousands of emails.
I urge you instead to meet with us on neutral ground somewhere on the
Lower Mainland and hear some of the other sides of the story. If you
wish, bring Wolfgang. We have always wanted to meet to work this out
face to face, as opposed to not, which has entirely been Wolfgang's choice.
Unlike some so called Asatruars we take our oaths, and our traditions,
very seriosuly.
There is no kangaroo court. It is called a Thing, and it is where
disputes are traditionally settled which threaten to tear up the
community.
The Freehold is not my "cult" and any suggestion to that effect is pure
fantasy.
We have well over 30 members including families in South-western British
Columbia and are a body governed by traditional thews, and the Freehold
Law which not only did the members themselve write, but they also voted
on, and then swore oaths to uphold. I have one vote, same as any Tru
Freeholder. As Witan both Wolfgang and I swore to uphold high standards
of conduct. Standards which he fell short on, and refuses to own up to.
I myself stepped down off the Witan because Wolfgang's beligerence made
mediation or progress impossible. My mandate, given to me by the vote of
Tru Freeholders, was thereafter re-confirmed by acclaimation. There
have been no complaints or charges filed about my bahaviour, although it
is noted my keyboard can at times more resemble a hammer. I'm working on
that.
My new-flame retardant suit seem to be holding up fairly well, hail the
swartelves who made it! Hair from a woman's beard is said to be the
secret ingredient that is purported to make its wearer incombustable in
a flame war.
The gravity of Wolfgang's violations of Law are weighted by the fact
that he was in a position of authority. Yes we have high standards in
our leaders, who are all elected, and if he at any points chooses to
take responsibility for his actions, we are willing to talk.
What I have done is fulfilled my oaths and upheld Freehold Law.
I can email you our bylaws, because that is probably among the great
quantity of information you are likely missing. I urge you to gather
more data before taking a stand.
Werner too now is forwarding an incomplete set of data regarding recent
events to
the newsgroups, confusingly pasted from a bewildering array of private
member emails dating back six months or more. His biased reporting is
evidently meant to shore up his position, but does little more than
confuse even the initiated reader.
Despite our recent public declarations, actually presenting the truth of
the matter, that it was oath and bylaw infractions, not sexual innuendo,
that are our only matters of concern in regards to Terry's (Wolfgang's)
conduct among us, and all that is requires is a meeting before Thing, it
appears Werner and Wolfgang are still very much on the War Path.
It is ill luck that they have recruited you in their crusade against the
Freehold, and I urge you to soften your heart and gather more factual
information before making such leaps of faith as you have extended to
the story the Wolf Kindred present to you.
I personally have no greviance with you, and was actually hoping to make
you aquaintence one day.
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Elected Law Speaker
BC Asatru Freehold
Terry
before, your mind was made up, the presumption of innocence is foreign
to you. Heidi has the truth and you blow yourself up like a bullfrog,
like you know something more than the truth. Stop your campaign or I
take You
Janice, Mikhail and the freehold to court. I only tolerate so much.
Terry Schmidt
Dan Miller
Wolfgang,
I would urge you not to waste several days of a lawyer's time reading
all the emails, as he would only laugh in your face and send you a bill.
Nothing we have said constitutes libel. As a broadcaster I understand
libel laws in this country better than you do obviosuly, or you would
not threaten to sue everyone in sight everytime you are asked to come to
meeting to try and work this out.
Instead you cowardly hide behind your computer distributing your
mistruths to anyone who will care to listen.
I have nothing further to say to you or Werner, as your posts amount
only to lonely noise and fury and signify nothing.
If you wish to meet like a man and work this out according to the
traditions of our peoples, contact Mikhail-Freyr, otherwise I ask you
politely to get on with your life.
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Happy New Year to the BC-Freehold!
First of all, thanks to all our Gods, to help us getting started. With so
many blods, it is no wunder.Hail D..,
for the major efford to get us going, a extra special
Thank You and for starting the News. Also for
creating the Frear's Wand, this wunderfull work of art,
blesses is the Freehold. Thanks to get invited on the
Summer Solstice, the big push for a greater enlight-
mend. Thank You Wolfgang, to get us as the Wolf-
Kindred, involved with the Freehold.
Also thanks to myself, to the first computer in my life
on my B-Day in April.
Now it is a extention of myself.
What a need to meet you All.
he big welcome of All of You.
I had the feeling, with so many talentedpeoples involved,
that the Freehold will the reallity for All of Us.
Look back, we come so far, with voted laws in place
and so many idees for our future.
The highlite of the Freehold, was the swearing in of the
members at the Summer Thing, on Augut/10th at
Ravens Nest at Thynehead Park a beautyfull place.
House Raven....k, with the big Viking Tent stole the
Show for good. Will never forget this special time,
with the gift of the freyjar, ripping his armrings off and
presenting them to Wofgang and myself, after the
Truhswearing.
Also the First BC Nordic Wedding invitation.
Will allways remember Frey... with her Battleaxe
at the Sacred Fire to watch over us.
The trip up to Halfmoon Bay on the Sunshine Coast,
onboard the Atlantis V to meet up with the Viking-
Wedding-Ship"Munnin".
D.. our Gothy performed the first Heathen Wedding
in BC by the Freehold.
This was another First and will stay in memory for
ever.
Last of all, the Yule Feast by Wolfgang on the
Atlantis V, decorated with a big Odinwheel in
festive lights.
First meeting of Clan W... and the swearing in
of those 2 Members, with little Holl. watching..
The Horns were allways full.
It was special to meet a new Bro& Sis, finally in person.
Happy New Year to All in the in the Freehold
The Horns high to our Gods
Werner
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E23EE9C...@saltspring.com...
Werner G.G. Von Otto
you should joined the church and be off to far off
lands. Ayway keep on doing your stupid behavings
of Grandeur, it will just open the eyes of the reminding
Members in the Freefold.
Posted, January 04, 2003 11:18AM
Subject alt.religion.asatru
Hail "All"Free"holders
This is a good side with a lot off differend opinions.
You have to pick out the good inputs. This is also
a side to find peoples likeminded for the BC-
Asatru"Free"Hold Mayby!
Open to Millers Fishhing Expedition Now, any one want
the big Fish, lots of bait< welcome!
It must be slow on the private Freefold Side.
Werner Odinauge
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E237F2F...@saltspring.com...
Dan Miller
I will not dignify this noise with any further response other than to
say... get over it.
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Heidi Graw
>"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <di...@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:b01i4s$kc0eq$2...@ID-120108.news.dfncis.de...
>
> > > He was offered the opportunity to answer to the violations according
to
> > > tradition, at Thing, and he refused, and quit instead.
> >
> > And good for him! He put the interests of the group ahead of himself.
> > Besides, why should he submit to your organization's kangaroo court? If
> >he,
>Dirk wrote:
> Because that is the most democratic and fair method we can devise of
giving
> someone a hearing.
> Or maybe you'd simply prefer a 'management decision'?
Did Wolfgang kill anyone, did he assault someone, did he steal something?
No? ...Then *everything else* is "trivial" ...petty! Huge issues are made
over by-law infractions! Dan and some of his members thought Wolfgang
*beligerant*...so, beligerance requires a hearing at the "Thing?" Come on!
There are times when making "management" decisions is entirely appropriate.
Filling up the agenda at a Thing with a long list of minor misdemeanors
indicates to me that the members are *not* being kept busy enough on more
constructive and positive works.
Take care,
Heidi
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
I have no idea what the issues were, but when one is a voluntary member of a
community and has signed up to its rules and regulations there can be little
cause for complaint as long as the procedures are carried out fully.
If this was the Kith of Yggdrasil *any member* has the right to bring their
grievance before the Althing.
FFF
Dirk
Heidi Graw
>
(snip)
>Dan wrote:
> The gravity of Wolfgang's violations of Law are weighted by the fact
> that he was in a position of authority.
Did he kill someone? Did he physically assault another person? Did he
steal something? To me, *those* are grave situations...everything else I
consider *minor.* And *minor* issues can be dealt with at the managerial
level.
Dan, it's all fine and well to hold a Thing...But, if the agenda looks a
little too short and slim, I would advise against lengthening it with all
kinds of petty and unimportant charges that would involve the whole
membership. <sigh>
Take care,
Heidi
Michael Heimdallson
>Find yourself another place for your Grandstanding. I told you once
>before, your mind was made up, the presumption of innocence is foreign
>to you. Heidi has the truth and you blow yourself up like a bullfrog,
>like you know something more than the truth. Stop your campaign or I
>take You
>Janice, Mikhail and the freehold to court. I only tolerate so much.
>
>Terry Schmidt
You threaten ME now Terry? I am disappointed. Is that the thanks I get
for inviting you to our wedding? For giving you gifts from my arms?
You overstep yourself Terry.
Freydis and I are trying REALLY hard to keep an open mind here, but
this sort of threat makes it REAL hard.
Mikhail and Freydis Heimdallson.
House Ravenspeak
Elected Freyr of BC Asatru Freehold
Dan Miller
Hi Heidi!
Heidi Graw wrote:
> >Dan wrote:
> > The gravity of Wolfgang's violations of Law are weighted by the fact
> > that he was in a position of authority.
>
> Did he kill someone? Did he physically assault another person? Did he
> steal something? To me, *those* are grave situations...everything else I
> consider *minor.* And *minor* issues can be dealt with at the managerial
> level.
I am not sure about that. But at any rate...
He refuses mediation, not I. You are complaining to the wrong person.
If you wish to drop the subject, let us do so.
> Dan, it's all fine and well to hold a Thing...But, if the agenda looks a
> little too short and slim, I would advise against lengthening it with all
> kinds of petty and unimportant charges that would involve the whole
> membership. <sigh>
Don't worry about that. Our agenda's are usually filled up with more
productive pursuits!
-Dan Mjolnir
Dan Miller
Heidi Graw wrote:
> Filling up the agenda at a Thing with a long list of minor misdemeanors
> indicates to me that the members are *not* being kept busy enough on more
> constructive and positive works.
Agreed! And thanks almost singlehandedly to Wolfgang.
Let's move on.
Dan Mjolnir
Heidi Graw
(snip)
>Dan wrote to Heidi
> I personally have no greviance with you, and was actually hoping to make
> you aquaintence one day.
Dan, I would have loved to meet you, too. I was actually considering
joining Freehold and I'm still leaving that option open. What I'm upset
about is Eric's public crusade against Terry (Wolfgang). If Eric gets the
slightest whiff of Terry being involved in *any* association, and if that
association makes a public announcement to invite people to any sort of
gathering, Eric will slink from behind the cheesebags to accuse Terry of
pedophilia. *No* association can afford to be associated with Terry. Eric
has branded Terry a pedophile and he will continue to bring this up whenever
he has the slightest knowledge that Terry is involved with anything
*anywhere.*...This despite the fact that he has no concrete evidence that
Terry is indeed such a person. It goes against all my deeply held
convictions about "presumption of innocense until proven guilty!" You have
no idea just how low Eric has sunk in my criteria of what I consider
honorable actions. Despite our differences in opinion regarding politics,
social issues, etc., I had pretty much still considered Eric as
honorable...somewhere along the line of 6 out of 10 points. But, with his
branding of Terry without concrete proof...and presuming him guilty before
proven innocent, he has sunk to 10 points *below* zero on my honour scale.
Dan, I recognize the impossible situation you're faced with. And I also
appreciate the fact you made a public announcement that you have found no
inappropriate sexual activities with respect to Terry. Now, imagine if I
were to form an association in which Terry would be a member. Everytime I
would announce a meeting on this newsgroup or anywhere else, Eric would make
sure to step forward to publically villify him, thereby casting aspersions
against my self and my association! There's no way I could afford that if I
wanted to build up my own society.
You have no idea how angry I'm at Eric...there are no words to describe it.
The man is scum!
Take care,
Heidi
Doug Freyburger
>
> I am Mikhail Heimdallson, elected Freyr for the B.C. Asatru Freehold.
I am Douglas Josephsson, heriditary head of the Freyburger Household.
I have no interest in your battle among members and former members, but for
a group of 30 people, I find your vaunted titles hilarious. They are over
the top. Are they for entertainment purposes or in earnest?
Thanks for this thread. It was a nice diversion from the battle between
brain-damaged J.A. who won't even read the Eddas and Dirk B who enjoys the
fray.
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.03011...@posting.google.com...
> Dan Miller wrote:
> >
> > I am Mikhail Heimdallson, elected Freyr for the B.C. Asatru Freehold.
>
> I am Douglas Josephsson, heriditary head of the Freyburger Household.
>
> I have no interest in your battle among members and former members, but
for
> a group of 30 people, I find your vaunted titles hilarious. They are over
> the top. Are they for entertainment purposes or in earnest?
When the Kith of Yggdrasil was created it was decided nobody was going to
get any fancy titles.
Even me as the 'General Secretary' got downtitled to 'Secretary'.
> Thanks for this thread. It was a nice diversion from the battle between
> brain-damaged J.A. who won't even read the Eddas and Dirk B who enjoys the
> fray.
Shooting fish in a barrel.
FFF
Dirk
Grimner
"Thanks for this thread. It was a nice diversion from the battle between
brain-damaged J.A. who won't even read the Eddas and Dirk B who enjoys the
fray."
-Grimner-
>
>
Dan Miller
Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Dan Miller wrote:
> >
> > I am Mikhail Heimdallson, elected Freyr for the B.C. Asatru Freehold.
>
> I am Douglas Josephsson, heriditary head of the Freyburger Household.
>
> I have no interest in your battle among members and former members, but for
> a group of 30 people, I find your vaunted titles hilarious. They are over
> the top. Are they for entertainment purposes or in earnest?
Bear in mind the organization is only nine months old.
The Freehold is in earnest I assure you. And considering the fact that
we consist of numerous different tribes and households and kindreds, all
of who may practice different tribal traditions (For example, Nordic or
Ango-Saxon or Continental what have you) the title reflects that fact we
are a small nation of tribes and Gilds of craft.
I guess you believe it as an honourable thing to do to ridicule
organizations you know next to nothing about and question the integrity
of good heathens you have never even met, much less corresponded with?
I don't suppose you have anything more constructive to contribute.
Dan Mjolnir
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Sworn Members left 5?
Kin to the households or Tribes?
Friends -Lurkers?
30 people?-A big #
Just observing
Werner Odinauge
"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.03011...@posting.google.com...
Dan Miller
Hail Heidi!
Thank you for the reasoned post. Perhaps we can resolve this more
locally, off the newsgroup, sometime.
Any new organization will probably experience some similar problems.
I was formerly Wolfgang's friend. In fact I defended him during other
conflicts he seems to have a knack at getting involved in from time to
time. My son also considers him to be a friend.
As far as Eric goes, if he or anyone else has found anything actionable
they should take it to the police, or if all the have found is innuendo
or suggestion, they should probably just drop the whole thing, as far as
I am concerened.
The members would likely have been fully prepeared to go to bat for
Terry if he had shown *any* responsibility in the matter. Instead he
came out on the attack right out of the gate. That was the clincher
that precipitated the allegation of frith-breaking.
And as stated, anything is forgivable if all parties can set aside
hostilities, recognize mistakes were made, and work together to resolve
the problem. The traditional mechanism of the Thing is an excellent and
fair way to do that.
The whole thing has been quite heartbreaking for me, but despite
suggestions to the contrary, it was not, at the base of it, anything
personal. And as mentioned he is welcomed to return if the issues of
trust can be resolved by addressing the complaints on file.
The Freehold , with its mutli-tribal structure and Gilds of craft, is a
very exciting new development in the organization of heathenry in
Canada. Perhaps Americans can turn up their nose at an organization of
30 people, but it has been a challenging accomplishment here in Canada
where the numbers of heathens are still small. (We have 30 on average
not including all my kindred... my Kindred alone has over 13 - not all
Freehold members but all Freehold Friends amd contributors - that puts
out numbers close over 40). In nine months we have very well.
I do hope we can meet one day... perhaps when we have some more pleasant
memories between this time and that.
Hale be,
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Dan Miller
The membership status is confidential information we do not give out.
Further your information is not accurate.
Enough of your misinformation. Please get over it now.
Dan Mjolnir
"Werner G.G. Von Otto" wrote:
>
Terry
happen. Lets go on with our lives and for the sake of all heathens I
will stop my attacks on you. What do you say?
I apologize to J... you know whom i mean for posting her name. I had no
ill intentions. Please inform Mikhail. I hope you stay on good terms
with Heidi it was my intentions to bring her into the freehold.
Wolfgang
let the gods be the judge
Heidi Graw
(snip)
> I do hope we can meet one day... perhaps when we have some more pleasant
> memories between this time and that.
>
> Hale be,
> Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Dan, that visit just might happen sooner than you think! My mother has a
dear old friend who lives on Saltspring Island. I may tag along with Mom
when she arranges one of her weekend visits there. I've never been to
Saltspring and you being there, too...well...how can I resist? ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>"Terry" <sch...@smartt.com> wrote in message
news:3E24D062...@smartt.com...
Thanks Wolfgang for your confidence in me. I'll be in Richmond at the
beginning of May. Werner mentioned something about "Shanghai." LOL... ;-)
Anyway, I'll be in touch.
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>
(snip)
>
> When the Kith of Yggdrasil was created it was decided nobody was going to
> get any fancy titles.
> Even me as the 'General Secretary' got downtitled to 'Secretary'.
Dirk, I'll tell you a secret...Every time I assumed leadership of any kind
of committee, the first thing I did was toss out its constitutional by-laws
and mandate. I then proceeded to "wing it!" This was always met with grand
approval of the attending membership! They loved my "lawless" style! LOL..
;-)
So...may this serve as a warning to all those who value their
by-laws...DON'T EVER allow Heidi into assuming a leadership role!!! ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Dan Miller
Wolfgang,
Agreed.
Grith,
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Terry wrote:
>
> Dan please lets make peace, we don't have to hug and pretend it did not
> happen. Lets go on with our lives and for the sake of all heathens I
> will stop my attacks on you. What do you say?
...
Dan Miller
> Dan, that visit just might happen sooner than you think! My mother has a
> dear old friend who lives on Saltspring Island. I may tag along with Mom
> when she arranges one of her weekend visits there. I've never been to
> Saltspring and you being there, too...well...how can I resist? ;-)
Heidi Wassail!
You would be most welcomed! It would be a pleasure to meet you!
My father is in India right now, or else I would introduce you to the
Elder of the Millerstead Kindred as well... he casts a long shadow, and
I still have much work to do before I match the likes of him. But there
are many other Kindred members running around, and maybe even crawling
around the island yet, we might bump into.
I guess I fall on the Folkish side of things, just to make small talk.
To be a member of the Millerstead Kindred you have to be related, by
marriage, relationship, breeding, marriage or adoption. The Millerstead
Kindred is an actual "kindred"... a group of kin. While I respect
others ways, I personally do not believe a kindred is like a coven, with
a bunch of random folks not even related to one another.... on the
contrary, as the word reveals, a kindred is a family.
Although perhaps folkish, my family nevertheless is a meeting place many
peoples, mostly Germanic, with veins of Celtic, Native American and
Afro-American marbling through.
All my family members as far out as second cousins, are welcomed to
attend Kindred blots, but 13 members of my family are local to the BC
south-coast and regularily attend Kindred blot and husel.
I can recognize that many heathens today, not being able to invite their
parents or sisters and brothers to blot and sumble, may form kith-bonds
in a proxy kindred by way of a sort of adoption, bound perhaps by oaths,
but that still seems a little coven-like to me.
(And lest anyone confuse my views with that of the Freehold... Freehold
law states every household organizes itself as it sees fit, and not
every member shares my view on this point of finery... just so you know).
But we cannot, in all truthfullness, yet call ourselves a heathen tribe
or theod, as the Christianity starts kicking in around the second
cousins. At around a dozen or so members in four generations of the
family classifies us as a Kindred, to my eye.
The support they have shown me and my endeavours, and the love I feel
for them as their son/brother/uncle/father and friend is the kind of
frith most heathens these days only dream about. To hail the names of
the Gods with my all living kin, toasting the clan's dead at sumble, is
such a feeling I cannot describe! I am proud and honoured to be their
Godhi, and hail my father.
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Millerstead Kindred
Heidi Graw
(snip)
>Dan wrote:
> Heidi Wassail!
>
> You would be most welcomed! It would be a pleasure to meet you!
Thanks, Dan! I'll leave our e-mail exchange out of this. ;-)
> Dan wrote:
> My father is in India right now, or else I would introduce you to the
> Elder of the Millerstead Kindred as well...
Oh...the fascinating stories he could tell!!!
>he casts a long shadow, and
> I still have much work to do before I match the likes of him.
The father/son competition! LOL... I can see that already with my son Billy
and his Dad. It's never easy fill Daddy's shoes...The only thing Billy has
going for himself at this time is that his own shoes are two sizes larger
than his Dad's and he's a whole head taller! Maybe the boy will exceed his
father in deeds and accomplishements somewhere down the road? ;-)
>But there
> are many other Kindred members running around, and maybe even crawling
> around the island yet, we might bump into.
>
> I guess I fall on the Folkish side of things, just to make small talk.
> To be a member of the Millerstead Kindred you have to be related, by
> marriage, relationship, breeding, marriage or adoption. The Millerstead
> Kindred is an actual "kindred"... a group of kin. While I respect
> others ways, I personally do not believe a kindred is like a coven, with
> a bunch of random folks not even related to one another.... on the
> contrary, as the word reveals, a kindred is a family.
That's pretty much how I feel too....kindred as a *family* grouping and kith
as that group of *friends.*
>
> Although perhaps folkish, my family nevertheless is a meeting place many
> peoples, mostly Germanic, with veins of Celtic, Native American and
> Afro-American marbling through.
My family, that kindred, is what I'd have to call *multi-folkish*, there's
no other way of getting around it. Marriage bonds have grafted other *folk*
onto my family tree. I can't just lop off those branches!!! ;-)
(snip)
> (And lest anyone confuse my views with that of the Freehold... Freehold
> law states every household organizes itself as it sees fit, and not
> every member shares my view on this point of finery... just so you know).
Understood!
>
> But we cannot, in all truthfullness, yet call ourselves a heathen tribe
> or theod, as the Christianity starts kicking in around the second
> cousins. At around a dozen or so members in four generations of the
> family classifies us as a Kindred, to my eye.
Same here. There is just one branch of my family which is decidedly *fundy*
Christian. I acknowledge they exist, but avoid them like the plague. As
for the rest of the branches...some are atheist, some agnostic, and some
have very liberal and *partial*-biblical Christian beliefs. My husband
claims he's Heathen, although he has not yet decided how to define it for
himself. He balks at any religious discussions. Quite honestly, I cannot
see him participating in an actual Blot. Both my sons are atheists.
So...that just leaves me! Loving the Eddas and the Gods!
I wish some of my German relatives lived near me. One family, in
particular, I know would be actively involved in practising Asatru. Yet,
there's one thing I would have to discuss in more detail with them. For
example...this one Berlin family....any misfortunes they claim are
punishments from the *Gods* - the Germanic plural Gods. And anything good
and fortunate, they attribute as a blessing from "God" - THE God of the
Christian faith. I have no idea why that is!!!! I'm going to have to
e-mail them about that. I'm wondering just how far spread this practise is
in Germany. Hmm....The Gods punish them for not doing something right...and
God rewards them once they've corrected themselves. Surely the Gods reward
people, too? Could this have anything to do with the "devils" vs. God? The
"devils" punish people, while God rewards them? That's like casting the
Gods as corrections officers, while God acts the a warden and/or parole
officer who rewards people with release upon completion of a sentence or who
offers day-passes for good behavior! LOL... ;-) Perhaps, this family
thinks they live in a kind of prison? Hmm....
>
> The support they have shown me and my endeavours, and the love I feel
> for them as their son/brother/uncle/father and friend is the kind of
> frith most heathens these days only dream about. To hail the names of
> the Gods with my all living kin, toasting the clan's dead at sumble, is
> such a feeling I cannot describe! I am proud and honoured to be their
> Godhi, and hail my father.
Dan, you truly are blessed! Currently, I take every opportunity that
presents itself to inform people about what I'm interested and involved in.
I do that whenever I think the situation is appropriate. It's not quite
like prosethelysing...but more a case of letting people know the Eddas exist
and there is a religion called Asatru which people practise. I guess you
could say, I'm on an "awareness" campaign.
This past Yule, I also managed to introduce a "new" and additional (for us)
custom at the dinner table around which kith and kin were seated. Although
it was about 3 days late, I talked about "Mother's Night" which led to my
family and my guests to talk about their most memorable female ancestors and
we toasted each one! It was such a profound, joyous and moving experience,
we all had tears in our eyes! Hail the Mothers! Then we proceeded to
honour our deceased Fathers and cried some more tears! Hail the Fathers!
And yet, none of us were sad...everyone was *happily* tearful while we
reminisced being among people who are nearest and dearest to us. It was the
best Yule I've had for a long time! ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Doug Freyburger
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > Dan Miller wrote:
>
> > > I am Mikhail Heimdallson, elected Freyr for the B.C. Asatru Freehold.
>
> > I am Douglas Josephsson, heriditary head of the Freyburger Household.
> > are over the top. Are they for entertainment purposes or in earnest?
>
> Bear in mind the organization is only nine months old.
Exactly. You haven't been around long enough to know the mistakes that others
have made before you, nor have you been around long enough to know who to ask
what is likely to be a mistake, why things went wrong in the past or how you
might try to avoid the mistakes of others by doing it differently.
By the way, how long has the most experienced heathen in the group been involved
in group practice on a scale broader than local? If it's under 5 years, your
group is working in a vacuum when you don't need to. There isn't any need to
*join* any of the many umbrella organizations, but it is extremely wise to learn
from their histories. Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it
and that is exactly what is happening to you now. Those who do not learn from
the mistakes of others are doomed to make those same mistakes and learn the hard
way. There's nothing wrong with learning the hard way, but it isn't the wise
course of action.
> The Freehold is in earnest I assure you.
I am sure the members are in earnest and are good people. I am sure the group
is in earnest and is made with good intentions. What you're missing is the
knowledge that so many groups have already been where yours is now, that what is
happening was completely predictable, that your reaction was completely
predictable. What to you right now is a novel experience, many on this
newsgroup have been around long enough to recall many such events in the past.
What is happening now is a been-there-done-that-got-the-teeshirt event or
an oh-yeah-read-about-that-several-times-and-learned-how-to-handle-it event to
very many folks on this group. Vacuums suck, but they also draw material from
others.
> I don't suppose you have anything more constructive to contribute.
I do because I've seen the mistakes that others have learned and I've been able
to learn from some of them. I do because I have seen plenty of mistakes in the
past, made a number of my own to contribute to the catalog of things that
don't work and why they don't. I do because I've watched others make a mistake
and then gone ahead and made the same mistake myself to learn the hard way.
What I haven't done is function in a vacuum without knowing that others have
already been at the point I happen to be at the moment.
Mistakes that others have made before and why they failed:
1) Taking oaths before people are ready. Be a heathen for 5 years *at least*
before swearing an oath. The drop-out rate before that is too high. If folks
take oaths too early, too many leave Asatru and abandon their oaths. The result
is completely predictable bad feelings toward those leaving. Another result is
being called a cult, and it will be an accurate label because raising barriers
to leaving is one of the standard distinctions between cults and non-cultic
religious movements.
2) Taking oaths before people are ready. Be in a group for 5 years *at least*
before swearing an oath to the group. The drop-out rate early on is too high,
so members will innocently take an oath and later not be willing or able to live
up to that oath. The result will be conflicts with former members over their
ill-considered oaths.
3) Writing a standard oath that all should swear. Honestly, this doesn't even
work well for the members of armed forces that have been in existence for
centuries. One size does NOT fit all. Worse, someone is certain to try to
examine the wording of the oath and try to become the interpreter for than oath.
The Odinnic Rite is going through this in addition to BC Freehold. Equally
worse, folks are going to go through the wording of the oath to look for
loopholes.
4) Using ancient words that had specific meaning, but using them incorrectly.
Your use of the word "drighten" is a good exmaple. It means leader or general
of a large group. Your group has 30 members and the word drighten would not
have been used by ancients for a group that small. Longships with 100 crewmen
had captains; a drighten led an entire flottila of longships. A cheftain might
lead a district the size of a modern county; a drighten would be promoted from
among the chieftans to lead a dozen or more counties. The result is folks
thinking your titles are hilarious.
5) Using ancient words that had specific meaning, but using them incorrectly.
Again I offer "drighten". Your group has been in business for less than a year.
Historical drightens took decades to acheive that title.
6) Using fancy job titles in the first place. This is entirely a matter of
tastes, but BC Freehold isn't even the tenth group that I can recall using
fancy titles. Every single one without exception has had people laugh at their
fancy titles. If you want to be laughed at, use fancy titles. Noone is going
to intend anything personal about it. The laughing is an entirely predictable
result of the use of fancy titles irrespective of the sincerity of the group
using them.
7) Airing dirty laundry in public. BC Freehold has done quite well on this
front. It is unavoidable that former members will take their grievances to the
public. What you have done is the best approach. You maintain that the matter
is best dealt with at Thing and you maintain that all of the facts and at least
two sides of the tale will be available to anyone attending the Thing. You let
the former member hang himself in public by taking this reasonable approach.
Other groups haven't been as smart as that, I assure you.
8) Vilifying former members, nonmembers, outsiders. BC Freehold has done quite
well on this front also. Other groups haven't been as smart as that, I assure
you. Some groups have made a habit of vilifying former members, nonmembers and
outsiders. At one point the term "set wretched" became a badge of honor. It
was a badge of honor because the only way to acheive it was to receive it
without asking for it, it was earned the hard way. The group using the term
worked long and hard to develop a reputation for having top quality members and
controvertial stances. When members left, the vilification they received led
to great respect in the Asatru community. More than one group has made a habit
of doing this, and it has been the death nell of every group to do so. They
go from thriving to failing to thrive to failing to a footnote. Please do not
let your group destroy itself by vilifying former members and nonmembers.
Your group has 6 months of experience. At one point I had 6 years of
experience. That point is now at over 6 years old. There are groups that have
been in existance far longer than I've been in heathenry. Look to others.
There's no need to join other organizations, but there is a pressing need to
learn from them what works and what does not. You're already doing some stuff
the right way and that percentage can be increased greatly.
Dan Miller
Doug Wassail!
...
> Exactly. You haven't been around long enough to know the mistakes that others
> have made before you, nor have you been around long enough to know who to ask
> what is likely to be a mistake, why things went wrong in the past or how you
> might try to avoid the mistakes of others by doing it differently.
I find your raft of presumptions to be rather surprising as you know
next to nothing about the organization or the people in it. Your
points, while good one, are really nothing we did not already know.
> By the way, how long has the most experienced heathen in the group been involved
> in group practice on a scale broader than local?
Broader than local? What do you mean by that exactlty?
I have been sworn tru for 15 years, and be serving pagan and heathen
communities in South Western BC for over a decade, with years of
experience in a non-profit society as a director and Godhi. That
society made Canadian history in the mid nineties.
>.... There isn't any need to
> *join* any of the many umbrella organizations, but it is extremely wise to learn
> from their histories. Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it
> and that is exactly what is happening to you now....
Well with all due respect, I have been around long enough and have
enough experience to know what you say is true, although why you presume
I ignorant of these obvious facts I am not sure.
> ... What you're missing is the
> knowledge that so many groups have already been where yours is now, that what is
> happening was completely predictable, that your reaction was completely
> predictable. What to you right now is a novel experience...
Not so. I have been around, being among the most active heathens in BC,
dispite what you may think, it is far from a novel experience for me. In
fact I loath ahving to go through it again and again as all the flakes
in the commuinity self-destruct in huge flame-outs... Not that I am
going to need to prove to you anything, so I won't bother dragging out
all my war-stories.
> I do because I've seen the mistakes that others have learned and I've been able
> to learn from some of them.
That's good! I am gald you are waxing in wisdom. What I am mildly
curious about is why you think I am lacking in it.
When someone spreads lies, I counter with the truth and be done with it.
If they lie more, I speak more truth.
Would you suggest some other course of action... maybe "for a lie give a lie?"
> Mistakes that others have made before and why they failed:
>
> 1) Taking oaths before people are ready. Be a heathen for 5 years *at least*
> before swearing an oath. The drop-out rate before that is too high. If folks
> take oaths too early, too many leave Asatru and abandon their oaths. The result
> is completely predictable bad feelings toward those leaving.
Ask the people who break their oaths about how much experience they
have. I would not know about that. I agree, swear oaths carefully, but
any idiot can grasp what a promise is and even a child can keep one. It
is not rocket science and nor does it require other any moral compass.
It's kid-stuff. And your right. But in thise case a moot point,
really, given the level of experience which I understand was supposdly involved.
>....Another result is
> being called a cult, and it will be an accurate label because raising barriers
> to leaving is one of the standard distinctions between cults and non-cultic
> religious movements.
Respectfully, in regards to the Freehold, you have little to go on. The
"cult" accusation was being thrown as a weapon in the same way as the
term "pedoohilia" was being used as a weapon, in a completely baseless
and honourless fashion. Any intelligent analysis of the facts would
reveal that we are not a cult and that the suggestion was nothing short
of simply ridiculous.
> 2) Taking oaths before people are ready. Be in a group for 5 years *at least*
> before swearing an oath to the group. The drop-out rate early on is too high,
> so members will innocently take an oath and later not be willing or able to live
> up to that oath. The result will be conflicts with former members over their
> ill-considered oaths.
We are also discussing an oath for the directors/trustees of the
society, which can and should carry more weight that the average member.
The Freehold believe it has the divine power of discerning who swears
their oaths in all sincerity and who does not. It is up to the members
to decide and its their sole responsibility to live up to their word.
> 3) Writing a standard oath that all should swear. Honestly, this doesn't even
> work well for the members of armed forces that have been in existence for
> centuries. One size does NOT fit all. Worse, someone is certain to try to
> examine the wording of the oath and try to become the interpreter for than oath.
> The Odinnic Rite is going through this in addition to BC Freehold. Equally
> worse, folks are going to go through the wording of the oath to look for
> loopholes.
How petty.
I actually do not think we are going through what you believe we are.
We had one bad apple who made a mistake and broke an oath.
The Oath is not the Law... Loopholes are to be found in the Law... a
promise is a promise and its meaning is self-revealing to any reasonably
intelligent person.
We will not stupify or dumb-down our oath requirement for the sole
reason of making it more realistic and therefore more sale-able. We
take our religion, which began with our original Oaths of Troth, and
have been built up upon a web of oaths and boats for years since, very seriosly.
We have different oaths for different positions as stated. But I would
say if you are not ready to swear an oath, you are not ready to be a
voting member of the society. That simple. This is not a Mc-Tru
fast-food joint... where we try and grow an organization as fast as
possible with no regard for tradition or common sense.
> 4) Using ancient words that had specific meaning, but using them incorrectly.
> Your use of the word "drighten" is a good exmaple. ...
With all due respect. Have a look at the map. We are in British
Columbia, which is the size of four European countries. There is a lot
of territory here, in which we are free to operate. We claim it. ;^)
Do you to contest that claim? (And if you know any heathen in BC who
would contest it, let me know, as I would like to make their friendly aquatence.)
We are not sticking our nose into your corner... I would guess it is a
united state somewhere... telling you how to run your show, and
ridiculing you before we even learn the first thing about you. In fact,
even if we knew anything about you we would try not to speak down our
nose at you, at any rate.
> 6) Using fancy job titles in the first place. This is entirely a matter of
> tastes, but BC Freehold isn't even the tenth group that I can recall using
> fancy titles. Every single one without exception has had people laugh at their
> fancy titles. If you want to be laughed at, use fancy titles. Noone is going
> to intend anything personal about it. The laughing is an entirely predictable
> result of the use of fancy titles irrespective of the sincerity of the group
> using them.
To be perfectly honest Doug, I could give a flying rat's ass who is
laughing right now and who is not.
I am not walking my path for the applause of the crowd, and their
laughter, if indeed it exists, does not sway me one step. Laugh away, I
could really care less.
It is not for your approvoal that I do what I do.
Is this the state of Asatru today in the USA...? When you are more
concerned with being laughed at that with fulfilling tradition? By the
Gods, all those Theodsmen were right after all... it's threatening to
turn into a white-washed watered down politically correct facsimile when
everyone is more worried about who's laughing at them than anything else...
It astounds me.
Really. :^) Laugh away. I hope all you Americans are feeling all smug
and superior, and are enjoying yourself adequately.
> 7) Airing dirty laundry in public. BC Freehold has done quite well on this
> front. It is unavoidable that former members will take their grievances to the
> public. What you have done is the best approach. You maintain that the matter
> is best dealt with at Thing and you maintain that all of the facts and at least
> two sides of the tale will be available to anyone attending the Thing. You let
> the former member hang himself in public by taking this reasonable approach.
> Other groups haven't been as smart as that, I assure you.
Well, Doug, maybe we can come to common ground here ater all. Thanks
for the good review.
I have learned from harsh experience in the past decade, that it serves
no one to retaliate. You speak facts fairly and stick to them, even if
it means you end up repeating yourself over and over.
> 8) Vilifying former members, nonmembers, outsiders. BC Freehold has done quite
> well on this front also. ...Please do not
> let your group destroy itself by vilifying former members and nonmembers.
Also a good point.
In my view it is the difference between really walking the walk or not.
The proof is in the pudding. etc. etc.
There are, with some heathens, seemingly some deep set resentments...
some hate Wiccans... others Christians... some Jews...
I grow weary of all the spineless whining.
Instead of bellyaching, let's quit the BS and get something positive accomplished.
> Your group has 6 months of experience. At one point I had 6 years of
> experience. That point is now at over 6 years old. There are groups that have
> been in existance far longer than I've been in heathenry. Look to others.
> There's no need to join other organizations, but there is a pressing need to
> learn from them what works and what does not. You're already doing some stuff
> the right way and that percentage can be increased greatly.
I do appreciate the time you have taken to write this out, despite my at
times terse tone, and thank you for your review and advice.
But with all due respect, you underestimate probably both my age and my
experience, and that of the core group of the Freehold. Yes the
Freehold was foundied Nine months ago, but it is the result of two years
work to get to that point. Every step was carefully considered and
continues to be.
Further it is the culmination of a vision I had ten years ago, and every
move in the community here I have made since has been in this direction.
Moreover, there are few or no heathens in this province that I am aware
with more experienece of working with non-profits, and with neo-pagan
and heathen groups, and doing public rituals, and teaching workshops,
and public speaking, and inter-faith diplomacy, so on, than I do. (And
if there are Heathens here with as much or more... hell even less
experience... I want their phone number)
You're talking to an aold war-horse here, Doug, not some spring chicken
who just read the Eddas yesterday. A presumption of my ignorance on
your part might be somewhat insulting, save for it is not that important
to me what you think, so it doesn't really matter. But uncountered, your
email makes us look like a bunch of school-kids.
I invite you to move to BC and do what I did... start from scratch and
build it, one person at a time, until it became a domocracy... and then
watch it like a young bird taking flight out of your hands... under its
own power and by its own volition. If you think you can do the job
better than I, you are welcomed to it.
Good tips for the green-horns though... thanks Doug!
Frith,
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Dan Miller
Ooops! Typo!
I meant to say:
" The Freehold DOES NOT believe it has the divine power of discerning
who swears their oaths in all sincerity and who does not."
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
> The Freehold believe it has the divine power of discerning who swears
> their oaths in all sincerity and who does not. It is up to the members
> to decide and its their sole responsibility to live up to their word.
....
Doug Freyburger
>
> Every time I assumed leadership of any kind
> of committee, the first thing I did was toss out its constitutional by-laws
> and mandate. I then proceeded to "wing it!" This was always met with grand
> approval of the attending membership! They loved my "lawless" style! LOL..
So you're not a Tyrian. The question is are you a Thorian or an Odinian?
Doug Freyburger
>
> > By the way, how long has the most experienced heathen in the group been
> > involved in group practice on a scale broader than local?
>
> Broader than local? What do you mean by that exactlty?
Other Asatru groups that span provences, states and nations.
> I have been sworn tru for 15 years, and be serving pagan and heathen
> communities in South Western BC for over a decade, with years of
> experience in a non-profit society as a director and Godhi. That
> society made Canadian history in the mid nineties.
What I knew in advance is your Usenet history extends back 10 days.
Welcome to the newsgroup.
> Well with all due respect, I have been around long enough and have
> enough experience to know what you say is true
Then you knew that using important sounding names would lead to folks
making jokes about it.
> although why you presume
> I ignorant of these obvious facts I am not sure.
Because it seemed like you were taking it personally when you already
knew it was expected.
> In fact I loath ahving to go through it again and again as all the flakes
> in the commuinity self-destruct in huge flame-outs...
Seems like a never ending cycle, eh? All who have been around have
been through it time after time.
> Would you suggest some other course of action... maybe "for a lie give a lie?"
Nah. That's aloud but it's always better to work from the high ground.
> Is this the state of Asatru today in the USA...? When you are more
> concerned with being laughed at that with fulfilling tradition? By the
> Gods, all those Theodsmen were right after all... it's threatening to
> turn into a white-washed watered down politically correct facsimile when
> everyone is more worried about who's laughing at them than anything else...
Theod makes an excellent example of both what can be right in a group and
what can be wrong in a group. Most of them are excellent folks who have
contributed much. They've been very controvertial and sometimes
controversy is good. When there is enough controversy volume matters, it
tends to pull the quality down.
> > 8) Vilifying former members, nonmembers, outsiders. BC Freehold has done
> > quite well on this front also. ...Please do not
> > let your group destroy itself by vilifying former members and nonmembers.
>
> Also a good point.
That's one bigger lesson to be learned from Theod is villifying former
members is a process that leads rapidly downhill.
I hope to see more of you and your group on ARA.
Hail Asgard!
Doug Freyburger
Heidi Graw
> >
> > Every time I assumed leadership of any kind
> > of committee, the first thing I did was toss out its constitutional
by-laws
> > and mandate. I then proceeded to "wing it!" This was always met with
grand
> > approval of the attending membership! They loved my "lawless" style!
LOL..
> Doug wrote:
> So you're not a Tyrian. The question is are you a Thorian or an Odinian?
Well...I usually don't go a-thundering into situations wielding a hammer.
So, I must be rather more Odinian if I had to choose between the two of
them.
Take care,
Heidi
Dan Miller
Doug Freyburger wrote:
> I hope to see more of you and your group on ARA.
Hail Doug!
To your health, sir!
We'll be poking our nose in from time to time, from now on, to be sure! :^)
I have never been a big usenet fan, hence my ten day history... I am
more a list-serv kind-of-guy...
Hail the Mighty Aesir!
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Dan Miller
Heidi Wassail!
Heidi Graw wrote:
...
> >he casts a long shadow, and
> > I still have much work to do before I match the likes of him.
>
> The father/son competition! LOL... I can see that already with my son Billy
> and his Dad. It's never easy fill Daddy's shoes...The only thing Billy has
> going for himself at this time is that his own shoes are two sizes larger
> than his Dad's and he's a whole head taller! Maybe the boy will exceed his
> father in deeds and accomplishements somewhere down the road? ;-)
I know what you mean about competition, although I am not sure I would
use the word in any way to describe my relationship to my father. He
sets an example of patience, understanding and level-headedness that I
am not even going to try and compete for! Mind you I strive to live up
to it, to be sure.
....
>....For
> example...this one Berlin family....any misfortunes they claim are
> punishments from the *Gods* - the Germanic plural Gods. And anything good
> and fortunate, they attribute as a blessing from "God" - THE God of the
> Christian faith. I have no idea why that is!!!! I'm going to have to
> e-mail them about that. I'm wondering just how far spread this practise is
> in Germany. Hmm....The Gods punish them for not doing something right...and
> God rewards them once they've corrected themselves. Surely the Gods reward
> people, too? Could this have anything to do with the "devils" vs. God? The
> "devils" punish people, while God rewards them? That's like casting the
> Gods as corrections officers, while God acts the a warden and/or parole
> officer who rewards people with release upon completion of a sentence or who
> offers day-passes for good behavior! LOL... ;-) Perhaps, this family
> thinks they live in a kind of prison? Hmm....
Well, Christian strategies for converting Old Germany spanned several
hundred years, as evidenced by surviving church documents, if memory
serves, and it is quite clear to me, having the given the matter some
study a couple years ago, that your example of God rewarding but the
Gods punishing fits to a tee Church propaganda and sermons of the time
(600-800ce) throughout Germany.
> ... To hail the names of
> > the Gods with my all living kin, toasting the clan's dead at sumble, is
> > such a feeling I cannot describe! I am proud and honoured to be their
> > Godhi, and hail my father.
>
> Dan, you truly are blessed! ...
That is indeed how I feel.
....
> This past Yule, I also managed to introduce a "new" and additional (for us)
> custom at the dinner table around which kith and kin were seated. Although
> it was about 3 days late, I talked about "Mother's Night" which led to my
> family and my guests to talk about their most memorable female ancestors and
> we toasted each one! It was such a profound, joyous and moving experience,
> we all had tears in our eyes! Hail the Mothers! Then we proceeded to
> honour our deceased Fathers and cried some more tears! Hail the Fathers!
> And yet, none of us were sad...everyone was *happily* tearful while we
> reminisced being among people who are nearest and dearest to us. It was the
> best Yule I've had for a long time! ;-)
Wow! That does sound like a tear-jerker! (In the best way!) That's
what its about, eh?
Dan Miller
Doug Wassail!
Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Dan Miller wrote:
> >
> > > By the way, how long has the most experienced heathen in the group been
> > > involved in group practice on a scale broader than local?
> >
> > Broader than local? What do you mean by that exactlty?
>
> Other Asatru groups that span provences, states and nations.
The Freehold spans the province of British Columbia.
And if there is anyone in Canada willing, and with the experience, to
volunteer organizing a trans-Canadian Althing, I would be your man. I
have been, however, waiting years for Heathens in other provinces to get
organized, frequenting Canadian lists and founding one of my own 5 years
ago, (now held by the Freehold and moved over to Yahoo at
http://www.yahoogroups.com/groups/canadian_heathen/ a year or two ago)
scouting for groups. Several years ago I dedicided, seeing the general
state of Canadian heathenry, that I wasn't going to hold my breath for
them to do so, and rather decided proceed to continue working within BC
for the time being.
There are several things to consider here when looking at Canadian Heathenry.
Our whole country, which is the second largest in the world, or
something like that, has the population of the Los Angeles basin.
You're dreaming if you imagine even a made in Canada heathen society in
even just three provinces. There are several branches of American
societies back east, at least there were, I understand, but to my
knowledge few if any trade-marked Canuck Heathen societies around (yet).
I think you may overestimate the number of active heathens in Canada.
There is no made in Canada trans-Canadian Althing yet... it's on my
to-do list, but without Heathens with their shite together in each
province, it amounts to a moot pursuit at this point.
Statistics Canada does not give a figure for "Asatru or "Heathenism" on
the government census, our numbers are so small Canada wide. What
statistics do exist is under the self-descriptor "Paganism", whish
apparently has doubled in the last ten years. In Canada, "Paganism" is
the fastest growing "religion" according to the last two census', ten
years apart.
Sorry don't have the census numbers in front of me, but I have been a
fixture in the heathen-scene here in BC for a decade and a half, and I
would say that Asatru's growth has roughly followed the same growth
curve of doubling in the last ten years.
Also, laws in Canada governing non-profits differ considerably than in
the USA. There is no such thing as a "federal" or "national" non-profit
society per-se. Without boring you with reams of beauruecratic
nonsense, while you can register a society name with the feds, a name
only it remains. Societies, according to Canadian Law, are governed
solely by the provinces, and must be registered and name-searched
seperately in each province according to differing provincial laws.
And there is a further distinction here between a non-profit society and
a "charity" which is able to issue tax receipts for donations. A
society which must be registered in one province somewhere, and has a
branch operating there engaging in "charitable activities" as defined
elsewhere in the Taxation acts, may apply to the *federal* government
for "tax-examempt status"
However at no point does any of this make an organization a "national" one.
If you had a plan for a national, multi-provincial organization,
complete with bylaws, you would have to find five directors in each
province and register and name-search seperately in each province...
have your Annual General Meetings and local elections etc. in each
province, and report seperately to each provincial government. There
would likely be a national governing body which would meet in one
province yearly, and it would be that province to which the reports of
the national general meeting would have to be made. And to top it off
"charitable tax free status" is granted on a local *branch* by *branch*
level, meaning that even if the Vancouver branch was tax-exempt, the
Toronto branch would *not* be.
So, long and short, you wouldn't reeally be a national organization at
all, but a condfederation of regional societies who happened to share
more or less the same bylaws from one province to the next and had some
kind of annual meeting and national "head office"
The other thing to consider is the character of the Canadian Heathen.
Anyone with any experience, like ten years a heathen, say for example,
was necessarily likely doing it all on their own for most of that time.
I know I was 15 years ago. This isolation, a decade or two ago in
Canada, likely means they have long become accustomed to faring their
own way quite boldly and feel no need to form into groups and
organizations, prefering rather to wassail the moon from the top of a
mountain in the din of the wolves, or blot the mighty sea with the
sea-lions, or shoeing out over the cripsing snow to light a fire by the
frozen river-bank under the Northern Lights. And most often by
themselves or in small numbers, alone with the Gods and the landwights.
Why? Because they can... the population of Los Angeles basin that I was
referring to, with the exception of Ontario, is spread like a thread
long the trans-Canada highway and its tributaries on about 5% of the
total land-area of the country over 4 and a half thousand miles or so.
We are S P A R S E... with the exception of a handful of major cities...
and by "major" what I mean seems insignificant by American standards...
anything over a million people...
Many Canadian Heathens, and more than a few tat I know personally in BC,
live so far out of civilization as to be inaccessible, prefering to live
off the land and sea, as opposed to be a corporate thrall in the big-shity.
So, to take the long road around in answering your question, when there
is a Canada Wide "'National'" Althing, I'll likely be sitting on the
board. But we are not there yet... not by a long shot.
Also consider the geographic distances and natural barrier. Right now
british Columbia could theoretically break off from Canada and be none
the poorer. In fact we would be richer as an independent nation than as
a Canadian province as we send more of our tax money to the feds than we
get back.
Then there is also the reality of the Rocky and Coastal Mountain ranges,
and then the prairies going east, very much insulates us psychologically
from whatever is going on back east. Toronto may think its the centre
of Canada, but most of us BC'ers could really care less (except maybe
about the tax inequities and the odd issue of impact).
The province of BC is further a huge track of land with several distinct
regions. Traveling across the province is prohibitive to say the least.
We in the BC Asatru Freehold feel that the province of BC is enough for
us, so to speak, and that we can form a complete nation here without
care or heed of what happens in Ontario. Not to say we would not
participate in some Canada wide venture at some point, but we would not
take likely to our local law being dictated by some head offoce back
east, that's for damn sure.
The Freehold is nearly complete unto ourselves, in terms of expertise,
and will be capable of being self-sufficient.
We regard ourselves as a small nation for all the reasons cited.
> > Well with all due respect, I have been around long enough and have
> > enough experience to know what you say is true
>
> Then you knew that using important sounding names would lead to folks
> making jokes about it.
Actually, it never occured to me at all, until you started laughing, to
tell you the truth. I have never been concerned, as mentioned, before,
about all the laughing people. Nor do I believe I should be.
> > although why you presume
> > I ignorant of these obvious facts I am not sure.
>
> Because it seemed like you were taking it personally when you already
> knew it was expected.
Actually, I have this new woven suit some dwarves crafted for me,
containing, it is said, fibres from a woman's beard which render its
wearer incombustible on email... it is working like a charm.
I was not offended, but my heathen thews which I hold dear reveal that I
had reason to be, as you seem, at least sometimes, to think you are able
to read the situation here, which is actually far from your experience.
At any rate, let us put the matter behind us, as we are making better
progress elsewhere.
> > In fact I loath ahving to go through it again and again as all the flakes
> > in the commuinity self-destruct in huge flame-outs...
>
> Seems like a never ending cycle, eh? All who have been around have
> been through it time after time.
It's a process of natural selection I suppose... but man... does it have
to be often so painful for the parties involved?
> > Would you suggest some other course of action... maybe "for a lie give a lie?"
>
> Nah. That's aloud but it's always better to work from the high ground.
I don't know... I think that High Word refers to military strategy, not
necessarily inter-personal conflict resolution.
Too often I have seen passages of the Havamal used as the flimiest
justification for unscrupulous behaviour... "Give a lie for a lie" being
a classic example...
"Well Odhin lied and stole and cheated and broke his word... therefore I
can too and I am being Godly..." To which I reply, "Yeah, but Odhin
lives in Asgard. I have to get along with you right here on earth.
Smarten up!"
Having been involved in various incrnations of the local community over
the last nearly two decades, with neo-pagans at first, as there was no
one else, and then in the last 5 years with more and more heathens, I
have seen that disfunction is not exclusive to the neo-pagans. Many
Heathens love to scape-goat those flakey neo-Wiccans and neo-Pagans,
heaping stinking scorn upon them. Experience has taught me, however,
that Heathens are not immune to the troll-shot being flung around with
impunity during community crisis' and can get just as flakey and
troll-like as the worst neo-pagan... perhaps even more so... usually
having some sort of twisted kamakazi 'warrior' "ethic" compelling them
to take down the whole ship rather than be shown the gang-plank. (And
lest anyone mistaken that I am refering to *any* recent events in all
this I am not... that was *last* year's fiasco... ;^)
Anyway, enough whining about all the belly-achers... let's get back to work.
Hail be,
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Law Speaker,
BC Asatru Freehold,
wi...@yahoogroups.com
Heidi Graw
>
(snip)
>Dan wrote:
> And there is a further distinction here between a non-profit society and
> a "charity" which is able to issue tax receipts for donations. A
> society which must be registered in one province somewhere, and has a
> branch operating there engaging in "charitable activities" as defined
> elsewhere in the Taxation acts, may apply to the *federal* government
> for "tax-examempt status"
Dan, does B.C. Freehold have a tax-exempt status? If not, and if you want
to be involved in charitable works, I have an idea for you to ponder...
If I set up Mission Freehold...a registered society, and if I subscribe to
be a paying member of B.C. Freehold, and if my local Mission Freehold
chapter donates "Heathen" books to needy individuals, children, and adults
as part of my orgs. function, then B.C. Freehold could apply for that tax
exempt status. The donors could then send the money to B.C. Freehold, get a
receipt from you, and those funds can then be sent to my org for the
purchase and distribution of these "Heathen" books. I would be sending
you my annual financial statements and reports. And, if other current
Freehold members want to engage in some charitable works, donated funds can
be collected and disbursed through B.C. Freehold...None of the other
chapters would have to apply seperately for their own tax-exemptions.
Do you think this might work? Feel like discussing this with other Freehold
members?
...Just a thought that was crossing my mind as I was thinking about making
Heathen material more accessable to the masses. Hand out Free Books! And
solicite tax-exempt funding! And with this Free Book program to encourage
literacy and "cultural" education, I could also apply for assorted
government grants as well as grants from other charitable organizations!
The costs of printing and publishing those Free Books could also be covered.
Maybe we could discuss this in more details...pros, cons, potential
obstacles? Good idea, bad idea? Any idea???? ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Doug Freyburger
>
> > 4) Using ancient words that had specific meaning, but using them
> > incorrectly. Your use of the word "drighten" is a good exmaple. ...
>
> With all due respect. Have a look at the map. We are in British
> Columbia, which is the size of four European countries. There is a lot
> of territory here, in which we are free to operate. We claim it. ;^)
> Do you to contest that claim?
I could claim all of North America if I felt like it and have no more authority
to do so than your claim of BC. Canada has freedom of religion so you can't
even claim religious jurisdiction of BC. Someone can and eventually will form
a group that is completely independent of yours. That's okay too. The more the
merrier as far as I'm concerned.
What you CAN claim is 30 members. THAT is good. Having 30 members after 6
months is far more than posturing. 30 members. Actual real people who have
showed up at group events.
Doug Freyburger
>
> We'll be poking our nose in from time to time, from now on, to be sure! :^)
I look forward to it.
> I have never been a big usenet fan, hence my ten day history...
The problem is "Dan" and "Miller" are common names. Doing a web search for
your online history would do me little good.
> I am more a list-serv kind-of-guy...
I've gone through phases on that. Lists have advantages. Lists have focus,
lists can exclude abusers. Unfortunately, lists are also private and that's a
disadvantage. UseNet is the one place that all may contribute or interfere.
None CAN be excluded, to the chagrin of many. The tradeoff between lists and
the group is a judgement call.
Werner G.G. Von Otto
This is a great Idee of yours. Mayby the Freehold
have to take a vote on it now for incorperation.
In my mail to the Freehold rewrithing on the issue
several times to help to get it going.
The Horns high
Werner
"Heidi Graw" <heid...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:tLuV9.44823$sV3.2...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Its one open and free side at least
Werner
"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.03011...@posting.google.com...
Dan Miller
Doug Freyburger wrote:
> I could claim all of North America if I felt like it and have no more authority
> to do so than your claim of BC. Canada has freedom of religion so you can't
> even claim religious jurisdiction of BC. Someone can and eventually will form
> a group that is completely independent of yours. That's okay too. The more the
> merrier as far as I'm concerned.
>
> What you CAN claim is 30 members. THAT is good. Having 30 members after 6
> months is far more than posturing. 30 members. Actual real people who have
> showed up at group events.
Hail Doug!
I think you misunderstand the nature of the Freehold and the nature of
its claim to BC.
I think we recognize that that the First Nations of BC, having never
signed a treaty, lay first claim to most of the province. Unsettled
Native land-claims table right now is something like almost half the
land in BC.
What I am refering to is legal jurisdiction to operate as a non-profit.
We are presently the only home-grown heathen society in BC, and as such
are free to operate anywhere in the province.
Moreover, we are not a kindred or even a tribe, but rather meant to be a
confederation of different tribes. If suddenly a grove of Theodsman was
to crop up in Victoria, say, and incorporate their own society, that
would not disallow the organization itself, or any members within it,
from becoming Freehold members.
Rememeber our main feature is all these Gilds of craft, which are
inter-tribal in nature. Further members can belong to any other
organizations so long as their purposes are not at odds with the Freehold's.
So if, or perhaps more rightly, when another society pops up in BC, I
would invite it to the table.
Dan Miller
Doug Freyburger wrote:
> I've gone through phases on that. Lists have advantages. Lists have focus,
> lists can exclude abusers. Unfortunately, lists are also private and that's a
> disadvantage. UseNet is the one place that all may contribute or interfere.
> None CAN be excluded, to the chagrin of many. The tradeoff between lists and
> the group is a judgement call.
Doug Wassail!
I guess it depends on what you're using them for.
I use lists mainly to get real stuff done in the real world, and
therefore generally lists which include people who are somewhat local to
me. And no, I really do not feel like posting my to-do list, doing group
brainstorming, or even just simply farting around, here, on the
street-corner of the global village.
Simply because I don't stand around speaking in a loud voice for all the
world to read, does not mean I favour closed exclusive groupings and
secret communications. I have nothing to hide, and have been a public
heathen for years.
It's just, as interesting as usenets like this can sometimes be, there
is far too much noise to make it a very useful tool for me. Good place
to put a press release, or engage in a little jaw-wagging with fellow
heathens, or post the odd bit of academic info, but rarely does anything
arise here that has any real impact to me here in BC, doing the work I
am doing. And if it doesn't help me get to where I am going, it is not a
wise use of my time.
That is not to say this newsgroup does not serve a valuable purpose in
the greater scheme of things... it's just I have my hands full working
with folks closer to home and in a more discreet fashion.
Dan Miller
Hail Heidi!
This is truely an excellent idea which completely furthers the purposes
of the British Columbia Asatru Freehold.
I invite you to coorrespond with me in private mail to discuss this
further. We can use another good heathen woman with leadership skills. :^D
On this note, I don't think I am jumping the public-relations gun in
announcing that up until today the Freehold Witan has been all men.
Today we founded a new Healer's Gild and elected a woman with vast
experience to head it up. She will join us as the Freehold first female
Wita (and as such her name will be ever hailed at Althing during a Full
to the opineers of the Freehold). I will make a formal announcement
when she has been duely sworn in and prepares her Gild's statement of purpose.
There is a section of Law involving official "regional branches" of the
society. I know how everybody cringes when I start quoting Freehold Law,
so I'll keep it to a minimum! ;^) But according to the Law members laid
down at Althing '02:
"11. Local Things
"11.1 If three or more Tru Freeholders organize themselves on the local
level, oathing themselves to a sacral head and/or a common Thing, they
may elect a Headman, a Godhi, a Lord, or some form of representative,
whom shall then be recognized by the Witan upon request and duly
installed upon the Freehold Witan."
So you could form a Fraser Valley Thing...
But you need not, on the other hand. For example, the only Freehold
members right now on Saltspring, I am at liberty to say, are members of
my own sizable Kindred and our recognized Kithmates. However, I have
been empowered by my kin, who are not themselves sworn to vote in the
Freehold by choice, but are otherwise are full members under the statute
as Freehold Friends, to stand as their spokesman to the Freehold and let
my single vote represent that of the Kindred. So presently I am the
only sworn Tru Freeholder on the island.
Nevertheless, I undertake all kinds of activities here on behalf of the
Freehold, with its mandate. Most recently, with a grand write-up in the
local newspaper prior to the event and colour photo plate of me in my
Godhi's garb the week after, the Freehold's recent Public Yule Husel was
a geat success, and a shining example of the media and heathenry
actually working in tandem for once. In fact, employees from the
newspaper were among the feasters at the blot in all good faith, even if
they were gathering a story, being very respectful and reverent.
And I have to say that this last Yule, organized and paid for by my
whole kindred on behalf of the Freehold, was among my most succesful
public rite *ever* in the last 13 years since I first hosted public Yule
in a wharehouse in Gastown in 1989 and had hundreds attend a week-long
Yule festival. Also perhaps, when I had a hundred person Midsummer blot
two years ago... roasting a whole pig....
But at any rate, in the last nine months since the Freehold was formed,
Yule certainly was the Freehold's most highly attended event so far.
I know some Americans may balk at small numbers, but rarely since '89
have I seen over 50 people at any traditional Heathen Yuletide Feast,
(which I am prone to be the one organizing at any rate). Fifty folks
from the public, including a dozen different kids, with an interest in
their Viking heritage or what not, feasting along a ten metre bench, all
hailing the Vanir, the Aesir, the Freehold Freyr, and hailing the dead
of their clans before the sacred feast, was a site I that I will
remember on my death-bed.
So, although the number of registered members of the Freehold are quite
small, we serve a community that is much wider than simply our own
members. Something perhaps some of our American cousins may not yet
understand. Same goes for our workshops and classes that have been
attended by dozens, in the last year, who have benefited even though
they are not and may never be Freehold members.
While we do have rites and gatherings and workshops for members only, we
are not an exclusive group. Believing strongly in the thews of being
hospitable and generous to the greater community, an important part of
our purposes is to serve the public at large.
Anyway, getting back to your idea, I think it is a great one, and there
are ways to get around the "branch by branch" tax thing with an
elaborate set of books and the local distribution of funds to areas in
the province, although while perhaps not offical branches, nevertheless
still have members there engaging in charitable activities.
Let's chat further on the sideline. :^)
Hale be,
Dan Ralf Mjolnir
Heidi Graw wrote:
>
> >"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3E264615...@saltspring.com...
> >
> (snip)
>
> >Dan wrote:
> > And there is a further distinction here between a non-profit society and
> > a "charity" which is able to issue tax receipts for donations. A
> > society which must be registered in one province somewhere, and has a
> > branch operating there engaging in "charitable activities" as defined
> > elsewhere in the Taxation acts, may apply to the *federal* government
> > for "tax-examempt status"
>
> Dan, does B.C. Freehold have a tax-exempt status? If not, and if you want
> to be involved in charitable works, I have an idea for you to ponder...
> If I set up Mission Freehold......m
Dan Miller
Dan Miller wrote:
> On this note, I don't think I am jumping the public-relations gun in
> announcing that up until today the Freehold Witan has been all men.
> Today we founded a new Healer's Gild and elected a woman with vast
> experience to head it up. She will join us as the Freehold first female
> Wita ...
Sorry! Or should that be "first female Wite"?
Hale be,
Dan
Dan Miller
To be really free, it is said, one should first be free of his own fear.
Dan
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Witanness, a better Name!
Werner
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E270B7A...@saltspring.com...
Heidi Graw
(snip)
> It's just, as interesting as usenets like this can sometimes be, there
> is far too much noise to make it a very useful tool for me. Good place
> to put a press release, or engage in a little jaw-wagging with fellow
> heathens, or post the odd bit of academic info, but rarely does anything
> arise here that has any real impact to me here in BC, doing the work I
> am doing. And if it doesn't help me get to where I am going, it is not a
> wise use of my time.
Hi Dan,
I guess I don't mind winnowing through the chaff to come to those few
valuable grains. I've found that the private forums, of which I think there
are far too many, don't generate enough fresh ideas for me. I would love it
if these people would come back to a.r.a. so that their posts can be read by
a great many more people. In private forums, there are usually just two or
three people who are most vocal and who tend to rehash the same things over
and over again according to those limited and highly regulated topics and
themes. Yet, with Usenet, we know there are quite a number of lurkers.
They can jump in anytime *freely and without restraint*. So, for me, being
that lone one in Mission, B.C....it has been an invaluable experience to
discuss ideas, share opinions, etc. *right here* in a.r.a. I just wish all
those *special* interest Heathen groups would join a.r.a. and bring in that
diversity of discussion to make a.r.a. much more a discussion group of
"substance", rather than just noise.
This is one of the reasons I hang out here in a.r.a. If I'm inspired with a
brainstorm, I post it here. I'm hoping some of the regulars and the lurkers
will like at least some of what I say and will take that back to their own
kindreds and/or orgs. I think Steven is a valuable contributor to a.r.a.,
even though he's a bit strange and weird...but he searches out historical
tidbits which I find interesting. ;-) Dirk will sometimes post
thought-provoking essays. Doug is always that "voice of reason." I may not
always agree with him...but that's o.k.! Julia and Hannah are those
language experts who make themselves available should we get bogged down
with translation errors. Ingeborg is well-heeled in Lore and Swedish
studies. Then a certain Mr. Goodsalt, a Christian, will occasionally drop
in with thought provoking questions. After the approx. 3 years posting into
a.r.a. and having subscribed to various private forums, I *still* like
a.r.a. best! It's my prefered choice for Asatru discussions.
>
> That is not to say this newsgroup does not serve a valuable purpose in
> the greater scheme of things... it's just I have my hands full working
> with folks closer to home and in a more discreet fashion.
Discretion is a Canadian virtue! ;-) As a first-generation immigrant, I
haven't yet been so completely immersed into Canadianism that I don't mind
being indiscreet *some* of the time! ;-)
So, anyway, Dan...whenever you have time, feel free to add your
perspectives, share ideas, etc. with the rest of the gang here. There's
always room in a.r.a. for intelligent and well-spoken people. The Gods know
we could use more like you *here.* ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>
> Hail Heidi!
>
> This is truely an excellent idea which completely furthers the purposes
> of the British Columbia Asatru Freehold.
>
> I invite you to coorrespond with me in private mail to discuss this
> further. We can use another good heathen woman with leadership skills.
:^D
Dan, I think I'd rather phone you because to write everything down in e-mail
would take way too long. I've got a number of pressing things I need to do
today, but be prepared for a call in the next day or two.
As for my leadership skills....well, those I've acquired over the past 28
years beginning with my involvement in a unionized workshop. I ended up
vice-chair of my local starting out as shop steward, working up to
counsellor, then vice president. I also took some supervisory skills
courses...I was heading towards a management position when hubby derailed me
from that track! LOL...Then, when my brother started out with his own
business, I was quite involved with that, helping with business strategy,
keeping books, etc. And then when the kids started school, I became active
in the school system...participating in various committees both at the
school and distric level, then creating and leading some. Presently, I'm
co-chair of my kids' highschool PAC (Parent Advisory Council.). And, I had
also led a group of neighbours to fight against proposed land-use issues.
During my "leadership" career, I rarely lost. It seems whatever I was
aiming for, I got! Thanks be to the Gods! ;-)
Thanks for the detailed post and your encouragement!!! ;-) We'll talk over
the Telus line!
Anyway...hello Doug...here's an example that if a new Asatru group springs
up, the organizers could very well have had many years of experience working
with people of all stripes and types and have had to deal with some very
difficult *people* issues. Some of the leaders of these new groups, could
indeed know exactly what they're doing! ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Fear of what?
Of myself not waking up in the morning?
Fear of pennyless?
Fear of losing my power?
Free is Free!
Werner
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E2719DF...@saltspring.com...
Dan Miller
Fear of enemies who do not exist?
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Windbag etc.
Hail the tall "Leader"
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E274CAC...@saltspring.com...
Dan Miller
A case in point.
You seem to see demons where there are in fact none. You imagine
enemies where you in fact have friends. You leave suffering in a wake
behind you with your venomous words that you spew without heed or care.
All the while leaving a trail of tasteless emails marking your winding path.
What more can I say?
I have no wish to carry this any further, but you do not seem to be able
to let this go, with your snide remarks and bad attitude. I really have
no further time to waste.
Let's move on now.
Good day.
Dan Mjolnir
Doug Freyburger
> Dan Miller wrote:
>
> > It's just, as interesting as usenets like this can sometimes be, there
>
> I guess I don't mind winnowing through the chaff to come to those few
> valuable grains.
There's an old saying: You may not always get what you pay for but you will
certainly pay for everything you get.
The price of a mailing list is the time to set it up on one of the many free
servers plus the time to maintain it and keep it active. The price of the
newsgroup is winnowing through the trolls and idiots. About the same order
of effort for the list owner, big difference for list members. The price of a
mailing list is an inherrent limit on its population. The newsgroup has no
inherrent limit on its population. You puts down your money and you takes your
chances.
> I would love it if these people would come back to a.r.a. so that their posts
> can be read by a great many more people.
It is a matter of perceived price/benefit tradeoff. The trolls and idiots are
irritating. The haven of a moderated list removes that price.
> Doug is always that "voice of reason."
Always? Has my level of assertiveness gone down that much?
> I may not always agree with him...but that's o.k.!
I'm here to follow the Aesir to the best of my ability. That does not imply
agreeing with people. As you say, that's ok. More is learned by disagreement
that by agreement. I've disagreed with the best folks on numerous occasions.
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Just one Person I am totally dislike, that's is yourself
mon ami Mr. Miller!
Werner
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E277A1D...@saltspring.com...
Heidi Graw
>>Heidi wrote:
> > Doug is always that "voice of reason."
>Doug wrote:
> Always? Has my level of assertiveness gone down that much?
Are you saying highly assertive people are unreasonable? Couldn't they be
both?
> More is learned by disagreement
> that by agreement.
I find that disagreements compell me to look at the weaknesses of my own
argument. They point out the flaws, then I can look for ways to stengthen
it. And when both sides do this, both end up firmly entrenched in their own
positions. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
bowman
dfre...@yahoo.com says...
>
> It is a matter of perceived price/benefit tradeoff. The trolls and idiots are
> irritating. The haven of a moderated list removes that price.
Until the moderator loses interest and leaves town without appointing a
replacement. I just unsubbed from Solitary Asatru after it was invaded by
an asshole and there was no moderator to block him (her, it).
Heidi Graw
>"bowman" <bow...@montana.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1892818eb...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> >Doug wrote:
> > It is a matter of perceived price/benefit tradeoff. The trolls and
idiots are
> > irritating. The haven of a moderated list removes that price.
> bowman wrote:
> Until the moderator loses interest and leaves town without appointing a
> replacement. I just unsubbed from Solitary Asatru after it was invaded by
> an asshole and there was no moderator to block him (her, it).
I'm currently subscribed to one group to which I haven't written for quite
some time. What I noticed is that each time someone new appears and writes
a nice polite and on-topic post, the moderator does a welcome while at the
same times lays down the "LAW!" What a turn-off! The newbies rarely write
a second post. Note: in order to subscribe, the description and code of
conduct is already listed on the introductory page where one needs to go
before signing on! Why not wait until someone does risk veering off a bit?
The moderator doesn't have to release the post if he/she doesn't think it
conforms!
"Welcome! Don't do this...and don't do that...blah, blah, blah...we want to
maintain the integrity of this forum! Go somewhere else if you want to
discuss this, that and the other thing!" Who needs it? <sigh>
Take care,
Heidi
Michael Kouvatsos
Heidi Graw wrote:
>>"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>news:7960d3ee.03011...@posting.google.com...
>
>
>>>Heidi Graw wrote:
>>>
>>>Every time I assumed leadership of any kind
>>>of committee, the first thing I did was toss out its constitutional
>>>
>>>
>by-laws
>
>
>>>and mandate. I then proceeded to "wing it!" This was always met with
>>>
>>>
>grand
>
>
>>>approval of the attending membership! They loved my "lawless" style!
>>>
>>>
>LOL..
>
>
>
>>Doug wrote:
>>So you're not a Tyrian. The question is are you a Thorian or an Odinian?
>>
>>
>
>Well...I usually don't go a-thundering into situations wielding a hammer.
>So, I must be rather more Odinian if I had to choose between the two of
>them.
>
>Take care,
>Heidi
>
Ahhhh.... not quite.... I really cant see Heidi cutting a blood
eagle into someone....
Mike
Michael Kouvatsos
__
Mike
Herulian
Hrothwulf here. That is, H-wulf, aka Jamey Hrolf Martin for any olden day Ring
of Trothers out there.
I don't normally post on this list, and shall refrain from doing so in the
future, but I was told that I was being quoted out of context, and thought I
would have a looksee.
Having done so, and having seen Werners quote, I thought I would say to the
list that what is between me and Dan and the Freehold is between me and Dan and
the Freehold. And I resent being quoted by the good freind of one of the most
worthless and unbecoming heathens I have ever had the misfortune of "meeting"
... Wolfgang.
Werner. I am surprised with you ... though why I am such I do not know. You
will not use my words in your games here. If my words are to be used to inflict
harm, I shall be the one who wields them thusly, not the friend of my enemy.
And not even to hurt a former enemy (if not quite a friend), who sided with
Wolfgang against the Tiowulfing Cynne.
In this conflict between the Freehold and Werner/Wolfgang, I care not who wins
or who losses, or how hard they lose, so long as you all leave me and mine out
of it. If you can't leave me out of it, bring it to my front door. The address
is in the archives for the Freehold list.
Hrothwulf
Hlaford, Tiowulfing Cynne
Terry
kings" of any clan or freehold. My observation is simple Kings and
Freedom are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Also that freedom can not
be defended by laws. There you have it, from the most "unworthy
heathen", but a long time heathen non the less.
Grimnir
> I have more important things to do than get into fights with "would be
> kings" of any clan or freehold. My observation is simple Kings and
> Freedom are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Also that freedom can not
> be defended by laws. There you have it, from the most "unworthy
> heathen", but a long time heathen non the less.
I understand, appreciate and respect your position. Nonetheless, history
does not fully support you on this. Ask an Irishman about Oliver Crumbwad.
--
You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny. - The Brihadaranyaka
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Hail All
The Clan Wolf just left Dan's Miller's Freefold.
The Wolf Kindred send you the aller best.
Deppy is the new elected Drighen of Medicine
and Mike is the Witan of the Warriors
Two of Voting Thruers
The Horns high to good Friends
Werner Odinauge
"Grimnir" <valf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JbadncHQLMs...@speakeasy.net...
Dan Miller
"Werner G.G. Von Otto" wrote:
> The Clan Wolf just left Dan's Miller's Freefold.
First of all, it is not my Freehold. It belongs to the members who are
voting and driving the organization.
More of your propaganda I suppose. Would you kindly just give it up?
Secondly, not that I speak for them, but I am not sure Clan Wolf would
appreciate you issuing a press release on thier behalf.
Your further indiscretion does not in the least suprise me.
-Dan Miller
Terry
was right on. None of us liked it, but we said in the end it will work
out. In retrospect it would have been better, you, Dan and I worked
together dis-assembling the Atlantis diesel motor, rather than to
disassemble the Freehold.
I have finished the disassembly of my motor, are you finished with the
Freehold? I will not install parts which could give me trouble in the
future, I hope you are also very selective with new members. Just a word
from the most unworthy of all heathens (someone you know called me). Now
is the chance for someone to steer the freehold in before unthinkable
directions. Just my 2 cents worth in the great "Schlamassel".
May there be enough mead and beer to keep the horns high, and let our
shoulders and arms never weaken.
Wolfgang
Dan Miller
Terry wrote:
...
> I have finished the disassembly of my motor, are you finished with the
> Freehold? ...
My agenda is only to help the other members build the Freehold, not
deconstruct it.
It is always possible that some folks may have other agendas, and if so,
it may they who in fact threaten to dissemble the organization my
running with purposes which counter those which are clearly stated as
the Freehold's. And yes, if so, they need to be dealt with in some way.
But it is not up to me to dictate who can join this Freehold or not. We
are a body governed by Law sworn to by all voting members before the Gods.
British Columbia Asatru Freehold
1. Purposes of the British Columbia Asatru Freehold
1.1 The British Columbia Asatru Freehold is an organization formed to
create goodwill by contributing in a positive way to local communities.
Freeholders may practice very differently from one another, but all
share a profound reverence for all the Old Gods and Goddesses of the
Germanic, Teutonic, or Nordic tribes, and an interest in or a commitment
to any of the many forms of modern Germanic pagan or heathen
spirituality, especially Asatru.
1.2 The Freehold exists to offer a positive network of support for
individuals and kindreds in their personal pursuit of heathen ways of
life, to promote fellowship and further learning, and foster
communication between individuals and groups in the heathen communities.
1.3 The Freehold will achieve these aims by various means, not the least
of which will be the organization at least one yearly festival; and the
creation of Gilds, as feasible, specializing in various traditional
cultural expressions such as the arts, crafts, language and spiritual practice.
-end quote-
Dan Miller
Werner G.G. Von Otto
Skald Gild of the Freehold.
Werner Odinauge
"Dan Miller" <danm...@saltspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E35E91C...@saltspring.com...
Dan Miller
Werner,
Even if I could, I would not reveal to you the membership status, one
way or the other, of anyone. I will not trust you because you have
proven that you give no heed to holy oaths uttered out of your own mouth
before the very Gods themselves. You alone will have to answer to them
for that. Best of luck.
Please give up your Crusade. Let it go. Forget about it. Get on with
the next thing now. Be done with it. Move on now.
Besides, I hear you're starting your own group now anyway.... so be gone...
Go join your with friends where you can belly-ache and whine together
about the Christians, Jews, Wiccans and New-Agers who make your lives so
miserable and who horribly victimize you- if your stories are to be
believed- you, the brave defenders of free-speech and the One-and-only Tru-Way.
And do tell us, oh Great One, while you're at it, which of the many
Asatru and Heathen organizations bear false prophets, oh Wise and
Discerning Messenger of the Gods, so that we might not fall victim of
their nefarious Judeo-Wiccan conspiracy.
Yeah right. Give me a break.
Save yourself and your friends any further embarassment and LET IT GO.
I look forward to hearing of your groups many accomplishments in th
eyear to come.
Best of luck.
Dan Miller
"Werner G.G. Von Otto" wrote:
>