soc.religion.asatru
Susan Granquist
On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Berry L. Canote wrote:
> The RFD for soc.religion.asatru has finally been posted. Please add your
> comments at news.groups. We need this newsgroup if anything is to
> ocntinue like the once great alt.religion.asatru. The a.r.a. has been
> spamed for weeks now with hate speech and the only way to protect
> against that is a moderated groups. Many from a cross secion of
> Heathenry have spoke in support of a second newsgroup. Please use your
> News Reader or go to a web based reader (like Deja.com) and read the RFD
> for soc.religion.asatru news.groups and post your comments.
Soc.religion.paganism has had an Asatru "section" in it since they began
with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
soc.religion.asatru. There has been very little support at all for
Asatru, although the participation has included a fairly wide spectrum of
Asatruar from time to time. If there is to be a soc.religion.asatru I
would like to see the people who developed the FAQ and who have been
diligently working toward that goal included in the moderation. They
haven't gotten much support.
Quite generally there needs to be a demonstrated readership from a large
mailing list (generally more than five hundred and with heavy traffic).
Is there that to sugest a newsgroup is needed?
A small newsgroup like alt.religion.asatru, which has been unmoderated and
generally speaking worthwhile as an unmoderated forum, hardly demonstrates
any real need for a moderatred one. As was pointed out, putting the
people on ignore and continuing to post or discuss the matters of interest
tend to take care of the problem.
Over the last five years or so since alt.religion.asatru was opened its
served a valuable service, as have the various moderated lists. One of
them is demonstrating people's true nature. Moderation also creates some
problems, but people do tend to stay on track. It is easier in most
newsreading programs to kill a thread, or put a person in a killfile as
they are expected to be high volumen.
The latest "takeover" of alt.religion.asatru is quite interesting. A lot
of the comments by the flamers are very clever digs at quite a few people
that would suggest that they've either been reading the newsgroup for
close to a year (some of the plays on words for various people went back
to then). Nik Warrenson mentioned this in the group as well. There are
"inside" jokes and comments that very few would pick up unless someone has
been active in the community for some time.
Not to demean your efforts, Swain, but it does seem odd that such an avid
demonstration proves the need for a newsgroup.
Regards,
Susan Granquist
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
To be most effective, this article should also have been crossposted to news.groups -Baird
Dirk Bruere
Susan Granquist wrote:
>
>...
> Not to demean your efforts, Swain, but it does seem odd that such an avid
> demonstration proves the need for a newsgroup.
Well, I may be overly suspicious (and even wrong factually) but don't
you have a personal interest in there *not* being a moderated public
forum?
Dirk
Greg Shetler
Susan Granquist wrote:
>
> Soc.religion.paganism has had an Asatru "section" in it since they began
> with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
> soc.religion.asatru. There has been very little support at all for
> Asatru, although the participation has included a fairly wide spectrum of
> Asatruar from time to time. If there is to be a soc.religion.asatru I
> would like to see the people who developed the FAQ and who have been
> diligently working toward that goal included in the moderation. They
> haven't gotten much support.
Well, for my own part, I stopped reading it because I couldn't post to
it. I post from a number of different accounts. The only account that
was ever allowed to post I no longer have. I guess the moderators
consider the other accounts to be "copycat spammers" or something. I've
never gotten a response from them when I've written trying to get this
cleared up. Oh, well.
Joe Harver
read a lot on it and have only touched the tip of the ice burg.I live 30
miles west of richmond,Va.I live in Amelia,Va.My e-mail is
joeh...@webtv.net
Vidar
>
> On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Berry L. Canote wrote:
>
> > The RFD for soc.religion.asatru has finally been posted. Please add your
> > comments at news.groups. We need this newsgroup if anything is to
> > ocntinue like the once great alt.religion.asatru. The a.r.a. has been
> > spamed for weeks now with hate speech and the only way to protect
> > against that is a moderated groups. Many from a cross secion of
> > Heathenry have spoke in support of a second newsgroup. Please use your
> > News Reader or go to a web based reader (like Deja.com) and read the RFD
> > for soc.religion.asatru news.groups and post your comments.
>
> with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
> soc.religion.asatru. There has been very little support at all for
> Asatru, although the participation has included a fairly wide spectrum of
> Asatruar from time to time. If there is to be a soc.religion.asatru I
> would like to see the people who developed the FAQ and who have been
> diligently working toward that goal included in the moderation. They
> haven't gotten much support.
>
> mailing list (generally more than five hundred and with heavy traffic).
> Is there that to sugest a newsgroup is needed?
>
> A small newsgroup like alt.religion.asatru, which has been unmoderated and
> generally speaking worthwhile as an unmoderated forum, hardly demonstrates
> any real need for a moderatred one. As was pointed out, putting the
> people on ignore and continuing to post or discuss the matters of interest
> tend to take care of the problem.
>
> Over the last five years or so since alt.religion.asatru was opened its
> served a valuable service, as have the various moderated lists. One of
> them is demonstrating people's true nature. Moderation also creates some
> problems, but people do tend to stay on track. It is easier in most
> newsreading programs to kill a thread, or put a person in a killfile as
> they are expected to be high volumen.
>
> The latest "takeover" of alt.religion.asatru is quite interesting. A lot
> of the comments by the flamers are very clever digs at quite a few people
> that would suggest that they've either been reading the newsgroup for
> close to a year (some of the plays on words for various people went back
> to then). Nik Warrenson mentioned this in the group as well. There are
> "inside" jokes and comments that very few would pick up unless someone has
> been active in the community for some time.
>
> demonstration proves the need for a newsgroup.
>
> Susan Granquist
>
> ======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> To be most effective, this article should also have been crossposted to news.groups -Baird
I am following the suggestion of the moderator of s.r.p. and
crossposting to news.groups.
While the idea of a moderator for a newsgroup to filter out the clearly
outside of focus posts I have some reservations about how this will
function in RL. I have been dissappointed by s.r.p. and would not want
similar experiences with s.r.a. In the past I have been able to post to
s.r.p. until a few months ago. When I wrote to a moderator about it I
never received any indication as to why my posts weren't making it to
the NG. If there is a question regarding my posting conduct then I
would hope that a moderator would feel confortable enough to privately
discuss any concerns by email. All that I can clearly determine is that
I cannot post directly to s.r.p. If this post makes it to s.r.p. then I
will consider whatever technical problems have occured in the past will
remain in the past.
Siobhan Perricone
>> To be most effective, this article should also have been crossposted to news.groups -Baird
>
> I am following the suggestion of the moderator of s.r.p. and
>crossposting to news.groups.
>
> While the idea of a moderator for a newsgroup to filter out the clearly
>outside of focus posts I have some reservations about how this will
>function in RL. I have been dissappointed by s.r.p. and would not want
>similar experiences with s.r.a. In the past I have been able to post to
>s.r.p. until a few months ago. When I wrote to a moderator about it I
>never received any indication as to why my posts weren't making it to
>the NG. If there is a question regarding my posting conduct then I
>would hope that a moderator would feel confortable enough to privately
>discuss any concerns by email. All that I can clearly determine is that
>I cannot post directly to s.r.p. If this post makes it to s.r.p. then I
>will consider whatever technical problems have occured in the past will
>remain in the past.
I've never successfully posted to srp so I finally gave up. NO one ever
told me what I was doing wrong. None of my posts were controversial. Just
talking to people who were posting. I tried to find out what was wrong and
never got an answer. So I just gave up. I would certainly hope that
moderation on sra wouldn't follow such a terrible example.
Greg Shetler
Greg Shetler wrote:
>
> Well, for my own part, I stopped reading it because I couldn't post to
> it. I post from a number of different accounts. The only account that
> was ever allowed to post I no longer have. I guess the moderators
> consider the other accounts to be "copycat spammers" or something. I've
> never gotten a response from them when I've written trying to get this
> cleared up. Oh, well.
I appears that whatever technical difficulty existed previously has
disappeared. I withdraw any accusations of judgment inherent in my
earlier post. I got a very nice, concerned response from one of the
moderators - who had never received any of the letters I had sent them.
Clearly, the problem was technical, and it has not gone away.
Dux
Swain Wodening
to news.groups -Baird
>
>
One could say the same of listserves, yet we have how many? As for
soc.alt.paganism... I subscribed to it for a long time and found it's
Asatru section quite lacking. The a.r.a was used by many that used none
of the listserves or other means of net communication. Its numbers I
think are sufficent to show the need for a second newsgroup. Too, one
must consider that newsgroups in genertal reach a wider audience than
any other means and are usable by more people. Even folks with text
only browsers like Lynx and old mail systems like Pine can take
advantage of a newsgroup. I think there is more than enough reason for
the s.r.a. esp. when you think about what the a.r.a acomplished in its
time.
Frith!
Swian
--
Haedengyldas
http://haedengyldas.webjump.com
Angelseaxisce Ealdriht Webpage
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6909
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Swain Wodening
Siobhan Perricone <ast...@sover.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 02:29:39 CST, Vidar <love...@flash.net> wrote:
>
crossposted to news.groups -Baird
> >
I cannot speak for the s.r.p. other than to say I was always able to
post to it. I do not see any reason the s.r.a. would suffer the same
problems. For one one if we use filtering software it would be only to
spot posts with fake email accounts or no IP addresses and that would be
it. No individuals would be targeted as long as they were posting from
a legit account. Finally, on the advice of many experienced folks,
including some experienced moderators on manistream religious
newsgroups, I will be reworking the s.r.a's charter to allow more
flexiablity. THis will be to prevent moderators from disallowing posts
that are relevant on some technicality.
Frith!
Swain
Siobhan Perricone
wrote:
>I've never successfully posted to srp so I finally gave up. NO one ever
>told me what I was doing wrong. None of my posts were controversial. Just
>talking to people who were posting. I tried to find out what was wrong and
>never got an answer. So I just gave up. I would certainly hope that
>moderation on sra wouldn't follow such a terrible example.
Ooo poor netiquette but...
Just saw that I actually got posted to srp on this post! Perhaps they have
fixed their moderation process and it might be worth giving them another
go. :)
Bloxy's
>On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 02:29:39 CST, Vidar <love...@flash.net> wrote:
>
>>> To be most effective, this article should also have been crossposted to
> news.groups -Baird
>>
>> I am following the suggestion of the moderator of s.r.p. and
>>crossposting to news.groups.
>>
>> While the idea of a moderator for a newsgroup to filter out the clearly
>>outside of focus posts I have some reservations about how this will
>>function in RL. I have been dissappointed by s.r.p. and would not want
>>similar experiences with s.r.a. In the past I have been able to post to
>>s.r.p. until a few months ago. When I wrote to a moderator about it I
>>never received any indication as to why my posts weren't making it to
>>the NG. If there is a question regarding my posting conduct then I
>>would hope that a moderator would feel confortable enough to privately
>>discuss any concerns by email. All that I can clearly determine is that
>>I cannot post directly to s.r.p. If this post makes it to s.r.p. then I
>>will consider whatever technical problems have occured in the past will
>>remain in the past.
>
>told me what I was doing wrong. None of my posts were controversial. Just
>talking to people who were posting. I tried to find out what was wrong and
>never got an answer. So I just gave up. I would certainly hope that
>moderation on sra wouldn't follow such a terrible example.
They ALL eventially do.
"Power corrupts,
and ABSOLUTE power corrupts absolutely".
Moderation is virtual equivalent of ABSOLUTE power.
Once the moderation is in place,
the number one rule of the virtual dictator of entire
newsnet is:
"YOU NEVER EVER TOPPLE THE SITTING DICTATOR",
aka "moderator".
No matter WHAT the moderator does,
even if he/she engages in the outright censorship
and a denial of a PERFECTLY valid articles,
there is just NOTHING you, or ANYBODY
[but tale] can do about it.
So it has been said:
"You get what you crave for".
Matthew Montchalin
Bloxy's wrote:
| > "YOU NEVER EVER TOPPLE THE SITTING DICTATOR",
| > aka "moderator".
The Grand Wombat wrote:
| And that's really a rule, too. I'm still having trouble believing
| that the Ghods of Usenet actually put forth the idea of moderation
| without any way of removing the moderator.
That is not at all the case.
There are both legal and extralegal means of dealing with undesirables.
For the 'legal' ways, it just takes money, resources, and know-how.
The Grand Wombat
Bloxy's...@hotmail.com (Bloxy's) confessed:
(moderators)
>
> They ALL eventially do.
>
> "Power corrupts,
> and ABSOLUTE power corrupts absolutely".
>
> Moderation is virtual equivalent of ABSOLUTE power.
> Once the moderation is in place,
> the number one rule of the virtual dictator of entire
> newsnet is:
>
> "YOU NEVER EVER TOPPLE THE SITTING DICTATOR",
> aka "moderator".
And that's really a rule, too. I'm still having trouble believing that
the Ghods of Usenet actually put forth the idea of moderation without
any way of removing the moderator.
>
> No matter WHAT the moderator does,
> even if he/she engages in the outright censorship
> and a denial of a PERFECTLY valid articles,
> there is just NOTHING you, or ANYBODY
> [but tale] can do about it.
>
> So it has been said:
> "You get what you crave for".
>
I don't subscribe to any moderated newsgroups. I doubt very much I will.
--
"Far above the ocean, deep under the sea
There's a river runnin' dry because of you and me" - Mercury Rev
mhm 20x10
meow -- wombats r us
Greg Shetler
Grr. Typo - "... and it has now gone away."
Sorry.
Dux
Bloxy's
>
>Bloxy's wrote:
>| > "YOU NEVER EVER TOPPLE THE SITTING DICTATOR",
>| > aka "moderator".
>
>| And that's really a rule, too. I'm still having trouble believing
>| that the Ghods of Usenet actually put forth the idea of moderation
>| without any way of removing the moderator.
>
>
>There are both legal and extralegal means of dealing with undesirables.
>
>For the 'legal' ways, it just takes money, resources, and know-how.
Then what happened to the comp.ai moderator?
Plenty discussions, sufficient information.
His own admission of censorship.
His own admission of black listing
and "evil behavior".
The fact that one of the oldest groups around
was taken over and removed from public access
and made a "private property"?
And a few people from the top elite stated that
the hell will freeze over before you succeeed,
as this is the rule number one of tale on this issue,
and things of that nature?
You DID read pretty much ALL of it, didn't you?
The discussion was pretty engaging and as extensive,
as you can find any place, and what happened?
Did that "moderator" get removed
and the public access get restored,
or the proposals were made CONTINUOUSLY
to "just go some other place"?
Can you provide any references and evidence that
there are precidents of removal of a sitting moderator
in the past?
;)
As to money to waste on removing this power maniac,
how much do you think he is worth?
Bloxy's
>After the investigation was complete, <4zPQ3.612$G51.2...@news.wenet.net>,
> Bloxy's...@hotmail.com (Bloxy's) confessed:
>
>(moderators)
>
>>
>> They ALL eventially do.
>>
>> "Power corrupts,
>> and ABSOLUTE power corrupts absolutely".
>>
>> Moderation is virtual equivalent of ABSOLUTE power.
>> Once the moderation is in place,
>> the number one rule of the virtual dictator of entire
>> newsnet is:
>>
>> aka "moderator".
>
>the Ghods of Usenet actually put forth the idea of moderation without
>any way of removing the moderator.
Those "ghods" just suck worse than a black hole,
at least from what i've seen today.
On one side of their lying mouth
they say "good", which they can not even define,
and on the other side they say
"hey, if you don't like it, go commit suicide".
Hey, not that easy, not that easy, suckazoids.
YOU go first.
Then tell me your royal experiences.
>> No matter WHAT the moderator does,
>> even if he/she engages in the outright censorship
>> and a denial of a PERFECTLY valid articles,
>> there is just NOTHING you, or ANYBODY
>> [but tale] can do about it.
>>
>> So it has been said:
>> "You get what you crave for".
>I don't subscribe to any moderated newsgroups. I doubt very much I will.
Even if you subscribe, those lowest grade
power maniacs will not allow a SINGLE funken
interesting article.
All they do there is a trip of self promotion.
Looking at the shit that is being posted on comp.ai,
or sci.psychology.consciousness,
i do not believe my eyes.
It is WAY beyond the obscenest of ALL obscene.
Just a giant sucking machine
and the ass lickers of the lowest grade,
building a "consensus of opinion",
aka mutual ass licking and pepetuation
of the same old shit,
they are in up to their elefant size ears.
Still flapping those ears,
about to take off to another planet,
as they fucked this one so bad,
you can hardly find a way to fix the
results of their "progress",
based on maximization of the rate of sucking
and exploitation of all that moves,
and does not, for that matter.
And this power hungry sucking "elite",
utterly out of active neurons on line
is sitting here with a pious faces,
peddling guilt and fear,
making all the dudes, trying to create some dinky group,
sweat to the point of complete shame and guilt and sin.
Did you see this suckazoid today
arguing why he voted no on a seti group
while he is interested in participating in it
but does not like the issue of a name space?
Name space?
You stupid bio-robot, programmed into oblivion,
what do you have to say about the name space problems?
Lets see what he says next
about and about and about
hiding behind the idiotic cover of name space problem,
they themselves invented,
pretending to represent the interests
of the holey [with holes] sucking truth.
Name space up your ass!
Manny Olds
> On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Berry L. Canote wrote:
>> The RFD for soc.religion.asatru has finally been posted. Please add your
>> comments at news.groups.
> Soc.religion.paganism has had an Asatru "section" in it since they began
> with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
> soc.religion.asatru. There has been very little support at all for
> Asatru,
There is such a cultural gap between Asatruers and the general run of
Wiccanesque pagans that I find very little to comment on in s.r.p, and
not much fruitful discussions following from what I *do* post. It is not
anything that needs to be fixed in s.r.p, it's just that Asatru gets
lumped in as "pagan" almost as a clerical afterthought. And it is so very
different.
It is worth noting that there is *one* unmoderated soc.religion.*
newsgroup, soc.religion.quaker. They appear to be the only group who is
capable of minding their manners and being interesting at the same time. I
fear that Asatruers have demonstrated time and again that they need frith
rules and enforcers to be able to spend much time together online.
Alas.
--
Manny Olds <old...@clark.net> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
Land of Confusion <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma>
Frigga's Web <http://members.tripod.com/~InFrith/friggas.htm>
Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma/reeves.htm>
Vingolf Fellowship <http://www.vingolf.org/>
Lynn Diana Gazis
[snipped]
: Ooo poor netiquette but...
: Just saw that I actually got posted to srp on this post! Perhaps they have
: fixed their moderation process and it might be worth giving them another
: go. :)
I'd encourage anyone whose posts haven't been accepted by srp in the
past, and who has gotten no response on them, to give them another go,
and, if you still have difficulty, to email the modkin and ask them what
is up. As moderator of another religious newsgroup, I know that we
*want* to know when people are having trouble posting to us (usually
because our group got misconfigured at some ISP); I think the srp modkin
would feel the same.
--
Lynn Gazis-Sax
moderator, soc.religion.mormon
Siobhan Perricone
wrote:
>...I'm still having trouble believing that
>the Ghods of Usenet actually put forth the idea of moderation without
>any way of removing the moderator.
They don't, but it's possible to put such a method into the
charter/moderation FAQ. For instance, anyone who is going to be a
moderator for SSFAM has to agree to being removed if it's agreed they are
abusing their power. There's even a mechanism for removing the entire
moderation panel if necessary.
--
Siobhan Perricone
(proponent and moderator soc.support.fat-acceptance.moderated)
Swain Wodening
>
> "Power corrupts,
> and ABSOLUTE power corrupts absolutely".
>
> Moderation is virtual equivalent of ABSOLUTE power.
> Once the moderation is in place,
> the number one rule of the virtual dictator of entire
> newsnet is:
>
> "YOU NEVER EVER TOPPLE THE SITTING DICTATOR",
> aka "moderator".
>
> even if he/she engages in the outright censorship
> and a denial of a PERFECTLY valid articles,
> there is just NOTHING you, or ANYBODY
> [but tale] can do about it.
>
> So it has been said:
> "You get what you crave for".
>
>
No moderator WOULD ever be allowed to do that kind of censorship though
as we are not talking absolute power. Besides what do you have with the
unmoderated a.r.a. now? Folks trying to decide what gets posted thru
the use of spam, flooding, and ridicule. This in my mind is much a
worse problem. Most Asatruar will no longer post on the a.r.a because
of that. That leaves a choice... 1) Continue with no moderation and
allow outsiders control throught use of spam and other tactics. 2) Start
a moderated forum with clear cut rules on the moderation process and
give control back to the adherants of Asatru. I prefer the second
myself. Granted the charter probabally needs to be reworked, but in the
long run it is the better way.
grimnir
but that's what they wanted. They haven't stopped me from posting. I'm
actually starting to have fun with them. Hel they're the only ones here
anymore. Them and a few who have the tenacity to stick it out. They
tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
types here, but only a few Odinics.
STH
Dirk Bruere
Swain Wodening wrote:
>
> > No matter WHAT the moderator does,
> > even if he/she engages in the outright censorship
> > and a denial of a PERFECTLY valid articles,
> > there is just NOTHING you, or ANYBODY
> > [but tale] can do about it.
> No moderator WOULD ever be allowed to do that kind of censorship though
> as we are not talking absolute power. Besides what do you have with the
> unmoderated a.r.a. now? Folks trying to decide what gets posted thru
> the use of spam, flooding, and ridicule. This in my mind is much a
> worse problem. Most Asatruar will no longer post on the a.r.a because
> of that. That leaves a choice... 1) Continue with no moderation and
> allow outsiders control throught use of spam and other tactics. 2) Start
> a moderated forum with clear cut rules on the moderation process and
> give control back to the adherants of Asatru. I prefer the second
> myself. Granted the charter probabally needs to be reworked, but in the
> long run it is the better way.
I propose another modification to the rules.
The moderator should post his real name and address (and phone number).
I think that should curtail any tendency to abuse within the Asatru
community.
It certainly worked for Roger Williams:-)
Dirk
Vidar
>
> In soc.religion.paganism Susan Granquist <valk...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Berry L. Canote wrote:
>
> >> The RFD for soc.religion.asatru has finally been posted. Please add your
> >> comments at news.groups.
>
> > Soc.religion.paganism has had an Asatru "section" in it since they began
> > with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
> > soc.religion.asatru. There has been very little support at all for
> > Asatru,
I'm not quite sure what this means. A reference in the FAQ?
>
> There is such a cultural gap between Asatruers and the general run of
> Wiccanesque pagans that I find very little to comment on in s.r.p, and
> not much fruitful discussions following from what I *do* post. It is not
> anything that needs to be fixed in s.r.p, it's just that Asatru gets
> lumped in as "pagan" almost as a clerical afterthought. And it is so very
> different.
>
> It is worth noting that there is *one* unmoderated soc.religion.*
> newsgroup, soc.religion.quaker. They appear to be the only group who is
> capable of minding their manners and being interesting at the same time. I
> fear that Asatruers have demonstrated time and again that they need frith
> rules and enforcers to be able to spend much time together online.
>
> Alas.
>
> --
> Manny Olds <old...@clark.net> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
>
> Land of Confusion <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma>
> Frigga's Web <http://members.tripod.com/~InFrith/friggas.htm>
> Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma/reeves.htm>
> Vingolf Fellowship <http://www.vingolf.org/>
You are quite correct in this assessment. Pagans are often confused by
this when they ask how we handle matters that are endemic to many pagan
paths and receive answers far removed from expectation. As I recall
there exists online a script from a talk given at a pagan retreat on
this matter. If you can provide a link to it that might prove to be
handy for pagans uncertain as to the differences between heathens and
pagans.
grimnir
STH
Swain Wodening wrote:
> > No matter WHAT the moderator does,
> > even if he/she engages in the outright censorship
> > and a denial of a PERFECTLY valid articles,
> > there is just NOTHING you, or ANYBODY
> > [but tale] can do about it.
> >
> > So it has been said:
> > "You get what you crave for".
> >
> >
>
> No moderator WOULD ever be allowed to do that kind of censorship though
> as we are not talking absolute power. Besides what do you have with the
> unmoderated a.r.a. now? Folks trying to decide what gets posted thru
> the use of spam, flooding, and ridicule. This in my mind is much a
> worse problem. Most Asatruar will no longer post on the a.r.a because
> of that. That leaves a choice... 1) Continue with no moderation and
> allow outsiders control throught use of spam and other tactics. 2) Start
> a moderated forum with clear cut rules on the moderation process and
> give control back to the adherants of Asatru. I prefer the second
> myself. Granted the charter probabally needs to be reworked, but in the
> long run it is the better way.
>
Rebecca Ore
> In article <4zPQ3.612$G51.2...@news.wenet.net>,
> Bloxy's...@hotmail.com (Bloxy's) wrote:
> >
> > No matter WHAT the moderator does,
> > even if he/she engages in the outright censorship
> > and a denial of a PERFECTLY valid articles,
> > there is just NOTHING you, or ANYBODY
> > [but tale] can do about it.
> >
> > So it has been said:
> > "You get what you crave for".
> >
> >
>
> No moderator WOULD ever be allowed to do that kind of censorship though
> as we are not talking absolute power. Besides what do you have with the
> unmoderated a.r.a. now? Folks trying to decide what gets posted thru
> the use of spam, flooding, and ridicule. This in my mind is much a
> worse problem. Most Asatruar will no longer post on the a.r.a because
> of that. That leaves a choice... 1) Continue with no moderation and
> allow outsiders control throught use of spam and other tactics. 2) Start
> a moderated forum with clear cut rules on the moderation process and
> give control back to the adherants of Asatru. I prefer the second
> myself. Granted the charter probabally needs to be reworked, but in the
> long run it is the better way.
>
Ignore Bloxy's -- he's completely loony.
Good people to listen to in news.groups are Russ Allbery (even if he's
pissed with me now for various things) and any of the regular women.
--
Rebecca Ore
Ivar Wiljonsen
the moderator's personal information ect.
BTW If any of you notice some of the meowers having @home ISPs tell me
because my father happens to be good friends with Milo Medine, president
& founder of that internet provider.
"Thou Shalt Not Think Highly Of Thyself"
- Law of Jante
Ivar Wiljonsen
are responsible and honorable folk who always do their best to provide
the absolutely best researched posts as topics. As men with merit we do
not swear ,spam or post irrelevant issues so there is nothing in my
opinion that we are doing now that we couldn't do in a moderated NG. I
don't see a moderated Asatru taking away anything we already have as a
community.
In frith,
- Ivar
ro...@yolo.com
> Soc.religion.paganism has had an Asatru "section" in it since they
began
> with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
> soc.religion.asatru.
Now there is a *really* scary thought! I would far rather trade witty
repartee with the meowers than subject myself to the catatonic drivel
of the acting-out teenagers on a "pagan" list!
regards,
rorik
Greg Shetler
Swain Wodening wrote:
>
> No moderator WOULD ever be allowed to do that kind of censorship though
> as we are not talking absolute power. Besides what do you have with the
> unmoderated a.r.a. now? Folks trying to decide what gets posted thru
> the use of spam, flooding, and ridicule. This in my mind is much a
> worse problem. Most Asatruar will no longer post on the a.r.a because
> of that. That leaves a choice... 1) Continue with no moderation and
> allow outsiders control throught use of spam and other tactics. 2) Start
> a moderated forum with clear cut rules on the moderation process and
> give control back to the adherants of Asatru. I prefer the second
> myself. Granted the charter probabally needs to be reworked, but in the
> long run it is the better way.
I agree, Swain. And thanks for taking the leadership role in this.
Press on, good man!
Dux
Greg Shetler
grimnir wrote:
>
> I don't see the BFD here. Yea, the Meowers have been a pain it the ass,
> but that's what they wanted. They haven't stopped me from posting. I'm
> actually starting to have fun with them. Hel they're the only ones here
> anymore. Them and a few who have the tenacity to stick it out. They
> tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
> this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
> types here, but only a few Odinics.
Your view and mine on Odin clearly differ. The Wanderer advises me to
pick my fights, and not to bother with arguing with fools. I've taken
most of my posting elsewhere, rather than waste time with the spammers.
If you consider that a sign of weakness, that's your prerogative. I see
it as denying the fleas their supper.
Dux
silverpelican
berser...@webtv.net (Ivar Wiljonsen) wrote:
> I agree with Dirk's proposal to modify information displayed concerned
> the moderator's personal information ect.
>
> BTW If any of you notice some of the meowers having @home ISPs tell me
> because my father happens to be good friends with Milo Medine,
president
> & founder of that internet provider.
>
> - Law of Jante
>
>
every No vote. The last thing ARA needs right now is an image of
netcopping. Pretty gutless thing to do anyway.
--
There is no Lumber Cartel and silverpelican is not unit# 1932.
"It was necessary to destroy the village in order
to save it". Tet,1968
The Vampire LeStat
fangs, the following words from berser...@webtv.net (Ivar
Wiljonsen) gave me pause:
>I agree with Dirk's proposal to modify information displayed concerned
>the moderator's personal information ect.
>
>BTW If any of you notice some of the meowers having @home ISPs tell me
>because my father happens to be good friends with Milo Medine, president
>& founder of that internet provider.
d00d, can you get me an account there? Thanks, bye...
--
_______________________________________________________________________
______ __ __ ____ __ __ ___ ___ ___ ____ __ ____ ____
| || | || || || || || // \\ ||\\//|| || \\ || || \\ ||
|| ||==|| ||== \\ // ||=|| || \/ || ||_// || ||_// ||==
|| || || ||___ `-. \V/ || || || || || || || \\ ||___
)``. __ ____ __ ______ ___ ______
__L \\ || || (( \ | || | // \\ | || |
.-' <---.\\ || ||== \\ || ||=|| ||
. .' ) _.->> ||__| ||___ \_)) || || || ||
\`--.__.<-' //\
|`-< /`-. //( | vji...@hotmail.com
| \ | `-..\|(
| ).-. `-(-} Meow.
| ) _/"
\ /.__.-'/ I would Become a Ljutefjisk Vjiking
\ '' / for Usenet Performance Art.
`-._ _.-'
""" <Fabulous ASCII art by VK, the one&only:)>
_______________________________________________________________________
"Looks like you just found a better class of thug.
My turn now, spammer and desecrator of Asatru."
-Dirk Bruere sets the usenet kook highbar in
<380BDAFE...@kbnet.co.uk>
Download the latest Olive Loaf Hit "Friendship" from
http://www.mp3.com/tincproject/
Soon to be released on the CD "Best of Loaf"
_______________________________________________________________________
遼颠 - The Toast With The Most!
%On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:14:49 -0700 (PDT), as I was filing down my
%fangs, the following words from berser...@webtv.net (Ivar
%Wiljonsen) gave me pause:
%
%>I agree with Dirk's proposal to modify information displayed concerned
%>the moderator's personal information ect.
%>
%>BTW If any of you notice some of the meowers having @home ISPs tell me
%>because my father happens to be good friends with Milo Medine, president
%>& founder of that internet provider.
%
%d00d, can you get me an account there? Thanks, bye...
me too
--
x !
' ! < X
! ! : >
' : > '
! 'L ! 4
' '> : !
! !h ` > > '>
' ! X ` :xx++~""~! :~! !
f ' 4 ' !
~ \
> ':
`~x. f ... ..... ~ .+~`
`\. `\. \'~`M `\' / .:~`
`"x. `%. "~ ' .:~~ .x="
~+:. "+. `%. ..<(..xz@#"~""`
`"*<:. `=: %: **! ::/*%)*"` .:~` .:=
`""+x.`"x!x :f .+"` .x+""`
....::::++++~~!!.:::++- `h ~` ....x-~"
...::>**~""``` .:x~")! f ` =:.. `"<.
.x+"~ %x" : .. ': +../ `"%+x.`"+..
..x-~" .~" %. ~ \ .f "~x. `"~+:.
:*"` .+" `"""" B L U B . `"=:. `"*
:"` `"=x.
" B O W T O M E O W . `~+:.
* * *
Knight of the Ancient Garter of Romath
Anty spaemn adn sleiaz (bagde# hs74j72fr375a)
Dean, Bungmunch University Dept. of Motor Vehicles
Member, Robby Rat's Final Lits
Listed (once) on Scabu's Roll of Shame
http://super-mojo.virtualave.net/blub/
* * * * *
silverpelican
>
> Soc.religion.paganism has had an Asatru "section" in it since they
began
> with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
> soc.religion.asatru. There has been very little support at all for
> Asatru, although the participation has included a fairly wide
spectrum of
> Asatruar from time to time. If there is to be a soc.religion.asatru I
> would like to see the people who developed the FAQ and who have been
> diligently working toward that goal included in the moderation. They
> haven't gotten much support.
>
> Quite generally there needs to be a demonstrated readership from a
large
> mailing list (generally more than five hundred and with heavy
traffic).
> Is there that to sugest a newsgroup is needed?
>
> A small newsgroup like alt.religion.asatru, which has been
unmoderated and
> generally speaking worthwhile as an unmoderated forum, hardly
demonstrates
> any real need for a moderatred one. As was pointed out, putting the
> people on ignore and continuing to post or discuss the matters of
interest
> tend to take care of the problem.
>
> Over the last five years or so since alt.religion.asatru was opened
its
> served a valuable service, as have the various moderated lists. One
of
> them is demonstrating people's true nature. Moderation also creates
some
> problems, but people do tend to stay on track. It is easier in most
> newsreading programs to kill a thread, or put a person in a killfile
as
> they are expected to be high volumen.
>
> The latest "takeover" of alt.religion.asatru is quite interesting.
A lot
> of the comments by the flamers are very clever digs at quite a few
people
> that would suggest that they've either been reading the newsgroup for
> close to a year (some of the plays on words for various people went
back
> to then). Nik Warrenson mentioned this in the group as well. There
are
> "inside" jokes and comments that very few would pick up unless
someone has
> been active in the community for some time.
>
> Not to demean your efforts, Swain, but it does seem odd that such an
avid
> demonstration proves the need for a newsgroup.
>
> Regards,
> Susan Granquist
>
> ======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
> To be most effective, this article should also have been crossposted
to news.groups -Baird
>
>
Not a member of Asatru, or anything for that matter, I would beg to
differ with you. If a RFD demonstrates significant interest, and the
large number of active threads would certainly indicate that, then,
IMHO, a CFV would be justified. Coming suddenly and under some
pressure, actually intense pressure, the usual ritual of mailing lists,
etc, wasn't possible. Much better than any participation in some other
NG, would be traffic stats, mentions of Asatru, etc in a recent time
period. I believe that these traffic counts, on appropriate terms ,
will prove to be quite high.
Certainly there will have to be some changes in the proposed charter,
and perhaps a second RFD. But I am inclined to believe that the
required number of votes, at the end of the day, would be sufficient to
form a NG. Whether there are a sufficient number of "yes" votes remains
to be seen.
silverpelican
Siobhan Perricone <ast...@sover.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 13:50:09 CST, Siobhan Perricone
<ast...@sover.net>
> wrote:
>
ever
> >told me what I was doing wrong. None of my posts were
controversial. Just
> >talking to people who were posting. I tried to find out what was
wrong and
> >never got an answer. So I just gave up. I would certainly hope that
> >moderation on sra wouldn't follow such a terrible example.
>
>
> Just saw that I actually got posted to srp on this post! Perhaps
they have
> fixed their moderation process and it might be worth giving them
another
> go. :)
>
>
Probably just a coincidence though.
Peppe
> Ignore Bloxy's -- he's completely loony.
Ignore him? But by volume he is acting out the monkey joke, and I just
so wish to be there when the new Shakespeare play is out :-)
Peppe [Ok, I probably should ignore him]
--
Preben Guldberg __/-\__ From management:
c92...@student.dtu.dk (o o) "Due to the present financial situation,
---------------------oOOo (_) oOOo the light at the end of the tunnel will
http://www.student.dtu.dk/~c928400 be turned off during weekends..."
Manny Olds
> You are quite correct in this assessment. Pagans are often confused by
> this when they ask how we handle matters that are endemic to many pagan
> paths and receive answers far removed from expectation. As I recall
> there exists online a script from a talk given at a pagan retreat on
> this matter. If you can provide a link to it that might prove to be
> handy for pagans uncertain as to the differences between heathens and
> pagans.
I am away from my bookmarks, but the article is called "The Pentagram and
the Hammer" and it is *under* the page http://www.webcom.com/~lstead. I
frequently recommend it.
--
Manny Olds <old...@clark.net> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
Sometimes you give a guy a fish, sometimes you teach him to fish,
sometimes you establish a fisherman training school, and sometimes you
have to let him find his own solution.
Matthew Montchalin
| Thus wrote Rebecca Ore <rebec...@op.net>
| > Ignore Bloxy's -- he's completely loony.
|
| Ignore him? But by volume he is acting out the monkey joke, and I just
| so wish to be there when the new Shakespeare play is out :-)
|
| Peppe [Ok, I probably should ignore him]
Bloxy uses a Bot to supplement his posts with all kinds of surplusage.
He is a more gifted programmer than he lets on. I just wish he would
experiment back at comp.ai, where people might appreciate it.
Dirk Bruere
Greg Shetler wrote:
>
> > anymore. Them and a few who have the tenacity to stick it out. They
> > tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
> > this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
> > types here, but only a few Odinics.
> Your view and mine on Odin clearly differ. The Wanderer advises me to
> pick my fights, and not to bother with arguing with fools. I've taken
> most of my posting elsewhere, rather than waste time with the spammers.
> If you consider that a sign of weakness, that's your prerogative. I see
> it as denying the fleas their supper.
Odin needs Thor.
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
Manny Olds wrote:
>
> I am away from my bookmarks, but the article is called "The Pentagram and
> the Hammer" and it is *under* the page http://www.webcom.com/~lstead. I
> frequently recommend it.
That's quite an eyeopener in many ways, particularly concerning the
different forms of communication. No wonder I am occasionally
'misunderstood' by my Asian teachers.
Dirk
Rat & Swan
>
> I don't see the BFD here. Yea, the Meowers have been a pain it the ass,
> but that's what they wanted. They haven't stopped me from posting. I'm
> actually starting to have fun with them. Hel they're the only ones here
> tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
> this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
> types here, but only a few Odinics.
I'm still here.
Yes, I had a horredous hard drive crash, but fortunately, my techie
pulled my chestnuts from the blaze and I'm back.
He used 'ghost' a program that copies the entire hard drive contents
from one HD to another. It was amazing to find my system (minus one or
three prgs that got scorched before the transfer) come back up good as
new! Wow!
> Swain Wodening wrote:
> > > >> While the idea of a moderator for a newsgroup to filter out
> > the clearly
> > > >>outside of focus posts I have some reservations about how this will
> > > >>function in RL. I have been dissappointed by s.r.p. and would not
> > want
> > > >>similar experiences with s.r.a. In the past I have been able to
> > post to
> > > >>s.r.p. until a few months ago. When I wrote to a moderator about it
> > I
> > > >>never received any indication as to why my posts weren't making it
> > to
> > > >>the NG. If there is a question regarding my posting conduct then I
> > > >>would hope that a moderator would feel confortable enough to
> > privately
> > > >>discuss any concerns by email. All that I can clearly determine is
> > that
> > > >>I cannot post directly to s.r.p. If this post makes it to s.r.p.
> > then I
> > > >>will consider whatever technical problems have occured in the past
> > will
> > > >>remain in the past.
Sometimes a moderated ng can be mis-handled by an ISP. It took six
months for alt.support.childfree.moderated to be carried *PROPERLY* by
Pacbell! For the dutration of that time, I could *see* the group, but
could not *post* to it.
Until the moderators *knew* I was trying to post, they didn't see my
posts either, and could not helo me.
If you want to try to post to a modgroup, try hitting "post AND email"
on your 'send' command. THAT way, (unless the ISP is REALLY screwed up)
the post will at least reach the mods. THEN they can try to get the
server to recognize the group.
Having been a moderator, I can say that most of us DO ytry to be
impartial, and if we bounce a message, we will try to let the person
know *why*. And we seldom bounce stuff without warnings given first.
> > > >I've never successfully posted to srp so I finally gave up. NO one
> > ever
> > > >told me what I was doing wrong. None of my posts were controversial.
The more I read, the more it sounds like your SERVER was at fault! The
utter silence tells me a lot. Try to post and mail a message. Failing
that, read the group, get an email addy from a moderator, and ASK THEM
if they have seen your posts. An emailed request *should* produce a
result. It may very well be that nobody SAW you. Another thing to try
is to email a post to another poster, requesting that THEY post for you,
once, to see if it gets bounced.
> > Just
> > > >talking to people who were posting. I tried to find out what was
> > wrong and
> > > >never got an answer. So I just gave up. I would certainly hope that
> > > >moderation on sra wouldn't follow such a terrible example.
I would hope so as well. I never encountered problems until a.s.c.m.
and then itseemed the thing was one big endless problem. Servers vary.
Newsfeeds vary. But I'm betting that's the problem, not the mods.
> > No moderator WOULD ever be allowed to do that kind of censorship though
> > as we are not talking absolute power. Besides what do you have with the
> > unmoderated a.r.a. now? Folks trying to decide what gets posted thru
> > the use of spam, flooding, and ridicule. This in my mind is much a
> > worse problem. Most Asatruar will no longer post on the a.r.a because
> > of that. That leaves a choice... 1) Continue with no moderation and
> > allow outsiders control throught use of spam and other tactics. 2) Start
> > a moderated forum with clear cut rules on the moderation process and
> > give control back to the adherants of Asatru. I prefer the second
> > myself. Granted the charter probabally needs to be reworked, but in the
> > long run it is the better way.
The chioldfree groups have the right of it, as do the Babylon 5
groups... There exists rec.arts.scifi.television.babylon-5 and
rec.arts.scifi.television.babylon5-moderated which gives posters TWO
groups, two fora to speak from. If one refuses access, the other does
not, thus NOT preventing persons from speaking. alt.support.childfree
and alt.support.childfree.moderated do the same. They are twin groups,
with cross-posting allowed and people who read one generally read both.
But when the troll-level rises, people go to the modgroup and starve the
trolls out!! I note that the trollage levels have gone WAY down! And the
presence of the UNmoderated group prevents mods from becoming little tin
gods, because if they DO, everyone just shifts back to the UNmoderated
group!
Works like a charm!!
Sigrun
Bufford L. Hatchett
[...]
> The chioldfree groups have the right of it, as do the Babylon 5
> groups... There exists rec.arts.scifi.television.babylon-5 and
> rec.arts.scifi.television.babylon5-moderated which gives posters TWO
> groups, two fora to speak from. If one refuses access, the other does
> not, thus NOT preventing persons from speaking. alt.support.childfree
> and alt.support.childfree.moderated do the same. They are twin groups,
> with cross-posting allowed and people who read one generally read both.
> But when the troll-level rises, people go to the modgroup and starve the
> trolls out!! I note that the trollage levels have gone WAY down! And the
> presence of the UNmoderated group prevents mods from becoming little tin
> gods, because if they DO, everyone just shifts back to the UNmoderated
> group!
>
> Works like a charm!!
Works like a charm for alt.life.sucks and alt.life.sucks.moderated
as well.
Rebecca Ore
> Greg Shetler wrote:
> >
> > > anymore. Them and a few who have the tenacity to stick it out. They
> > > tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
> > > this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
> > > types here, but only a few Odinics.
>
> > Your view and mine on Odin clearly differ. The Wanderer advises me to
> > pick my fights, and not to bother with arguing with fools. I've taken
> > most of my posting elsewhere, rather than waste time with the spammers.
> > If you consider that a sign of weakness, that's your prerogative. I see
> > it as denying the fleas their supper.
>
> Odin needs Thor.
>
Dirk needs Meow.
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> It might have been "fixed" about the time that this RFD posted.
> Probably just a coincidence though.
The problem was repaired a month or more before the RFD was posted.
The only coincidence is that because I know that Manny and a couple of
other Asatruar post on a fairly regular basis to srp (which in turn
suggests the possibility of a larger number of lurking Asatruar and
therefore that there might be some interest), I suggested to the
proponent of the new group that he post a pointer on srp to his proposal
and the newsgroups in which it is being discussed.
Blessed be,
Baird
--
Modkin for soc.religion.paganism,
Modstaff for alt.religion.wicca.moderated
Visit me at <http://newstaffinc.com/stafford>
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> And that's really a rule, too. I'm still having trouble believing that
> the Ghods of Usenet actually put forth the idea of moderation without
> any way of removing the moderator.
It is possible, at least with a moderation panel rather than a single
moderator, to put a mechanism for doing so in the charter of the
newsgroup rather than relying on the Ghods of Usenet.
grimnir
> grimnir wrote:
> >
> > I don't see the BFD here. Yea, the Meowers have been a pain it the ass,
> > but that's what they wanted. They haven't stopped me from posting. I'm
> > actually starting to have fun with them. Hel they're the only ones here
> > anymore. Them and a few who have the tenacity to stick it out. They
> > tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
> > this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
> > types here, but only a few Odinics.
>
> Your view and mine on Odin clearly differ. The Wanderer advises me to
> pick my fights, and not to bother with arguing with fools. I've taken
> most of my posting elsewhere, rather than waste time with the spammers.
> If you consider that a sign of weakness, that's your prerogative. I see
> it as denying the fleas their supper.
>
> Dux
I have neither fed them nor fought them. I have observed them and learned
from them. I must say it went from an annoyance that I tended to ignore to a
curiosity and then a challenge to understand.
The Vampire LeStat
following words from x...@y.com (遼颠 - The Toast With The Most!) gave me
pause:
>Error reading device "The Vampire LeStat" (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail? [ ]
>%On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:14:49 -0700 (PDT), as I was filing down my
>%fangs, the following words from berser...@webtv.net (Ivar
>%Wiljonsen) gave me pause:
>%
>%>I agree with Dirk's proposal to modify information displayed concerned
>%>the moderator's personal information ect.
>%>
>%>BTW If any of you notice some of the meowers having @home ISPs tell me
>%>because my father happens to be good friends with Milo Medine, president
>%>& founder of that internet provider.
>%
>%d00d, can you get me an account there? Thanks, bye...
>
>me too
You can tell the Milster that he can have some of my okra in
exchange..
Bufford L. Hatchett
> > > > tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
> > > > this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
> > > > types here, but only a few Odinics.
> >
> > > Your view and mine on Odin clearly differ. The Wanderer advises me to
> > > pick my fights, and not to bother with arguing with fools. I've taken
> > > most of my posting elsewhere, rather than waste time with the spammers.
> > > If you consider that a sign of weakness, that's your prerogative. I see
> > > it as denying the fleas their supper.
> >
> >
> Dirk needs Meow.
Bufford needs Aspirin.
Just trying to help,
Bufford L. Hatchett
Bufford L. Hatchett
>
> Greg Shetler wrote:
>
> > grimnir wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't see the BFD here. Yea, the Meowers have been a pain it the ass,
> > > but that's what they wanted. They haven't stopped me from posting. I'm
> > > actually starting to have fun with them. Hel they're the only ones here
> > > tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
> > > this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
> > > types here, but only a few Odinics.
> >
> > Your view and mine on Odin clearly differ. The Wanderer advises me to
> > pick my fights, and not to bother with arguing with fools. I've taken
> > most of my posting elsewhere, rather than waste time with the spammers.
> > If you consider that a sign of weakness, that's your prerogative. I see
> > it as denying the fleas their supper.
> >
>
> I have neither fed them nor fought them. I have observed them and learned
> from them. I must say it went from an annoyance that I tended to ignore to a
> curiosity and then a challenge to understand.
As we have learned from you that the yowling, preening, chest
thumping sort of Asatruar are by far the exception. I can now
realize clearly that *every* religious movement under the sun
has its Moons, Falwells, Maharishis, and "Reverend" Phelpses.
of Meow@collective.com The Heimdall Collective
The Vampire LeStat wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:46:24 GMT, as I was filing down my fangs, the
>following words from x...@y.com (遼颠 - The Toast With The Most!) gave me
>pause:
>
>>Error reading device "The Vampire LeStat" (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?
]
>>%On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:14:49 -0700 (PDT), as I was filing down my
>>%fangs, the following words from berser...@webtv.net (Ivar
>>%Wiljonsen) gave me pause:
>>%
>>%>I agree with Dirk's proposal to modify information displayed concerned
>>%>the moderator's personal information ect.
>>%>
>>%>BTW If any of you notice some of the meowers having @home ISPs tell me
>>%>because my father happens to be good friends with Milo Medine, president
>>%>& founder of that internet provider.
>>%
>>%d00d, can you get me an account there? Thanks, bye...
>>
>>me too
>
>You can tell the Milster that he can have some of my okra in
>exchange..
>
I'D GIVE UP EATING LJUTEFISK FOR A MILO MEDINE APPROVED @HOME ACCOUNT
--
The Heimdall Collective
---
ATTENTION VIKINGS OF ALT.RELIGION.ASATRU,
I AM HEIMDALL, A MEOWER,
RESISTANCE IS... FUTILE,
YOUR NEWS GROUP, AS IT HAS BEEN, IS OVER,
FROM THIS TIME FORWARD, DJIRK WILL SERVICE.......LOAF.
Up to 50% off on books on THE HEIMDALL COLLECTIVE at Fatbrain
(www.fatbrain.com)
Paul Murray
>On 25 Oct 1999 05:08:08 GMT, grand...@goplay.com (The Grand Wombat)
>>...I'm still having trouble believing that
>>the Ghods of Usenet actually put forth the idea of moderation without
>>any way of removing the moderator.
>charter/moderation FAQ. For instance, anyone who is going to be a
>moderator for SSFAM has to agree to being removed if it's agreed they are
>abusing their power. There's even a mechanism for removing the entire
>moderation panel if necessary.
But, as was discussed at length, this is still a voluntary proceedure.
If the person who controls the moderation address does not wish to
relinquish it, they cannot be forced to do so.[0] What your group has
done is move that power up a level to someone other than the day to
day moderators.
-Paul Murray
[0]: Technically the moderator relay database could be changed to
institute a new moderator, but there is no evidence that this would be
done.
Nick
> > > Soc.religion.paganism has had an Asatru "section" in it since they began
> > > with the idea that if they got enough support the formation of
> > > soc.religion.asatru. There has been very little support at all for
> > > Asatru,
>
>
There are several mentions of it but no details, I'll happily include
something if someone who knows something will write it
Nick (SRP FAQ keeper)
-----We Solve your Computer Problems---
Founder of the Prolifics User Group
Siobhan Perricone
>But, as was discussed at length, this is still a voluntary proceedure.
>If the person who controls the moderation address does not wish to
>relinquish it, they cannot be forced to do so.[0] What your group has
>done is move that power up a level to someone other than the day to
>day moderators.
>
>-Paul Murray
>[0]: Technically the moderator relay database could be changed to
>institute a new moderator, but there is no evidence that this would be
>done.
This is true enough. What we've done is shift it up a level to a
*disinterested party*. :) Someone we trust to enforce the will of the
people in this matter. Someone who hasn't got any stake in the newsgroup
itself. While it's not perfect, and it *could* lead to problems, it's
still more than no system at all. :)
--
Siobhan Perricone
Inside of me is a thin person struggling to get out.
Fortunately, she's easily sedated with a piece of cheesecake.
The Vampire LeStat
following words from "The Heimdall Collective" <Heimdall of
Me...@collective.com> gave me pause:
>
>The Vampire LeStat wrote in message ...
>>On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:46:24 GMT, as I was filing down my fangs, the
>>following words from x...@y.com (遼颠 - The Toast With The Most!) gave me
>>pause:
>>
>>>Error reading device "The Vampire LeStat" (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?
> ]
>>>%On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:14:49 -0700 (PDT), as I was filing down my
>>>%fangs, the following words from berser...@webtv.net (Ivar
>>>%Wiljonsen) gave me pause:
>>>%
>>>%>I agree with Dirk's proposal to modify information displayed concerned
>>>%>the moderator's personal information ect.
>>>%>
>>>%>BTW If any of you notice some of the meowers having @home ISPs tell me
>>>%>because my father happens to be good friends with Milo Medine, president
>>>%>& founder of that internet provider.
>>>%
>>>%d00d, can you get me an account there? Thanks, bye...
>>>
>>>me too
>>
>>You can tell the Milster that he can have some of my okra in
>>exchange..
>>
>
>
>I'D GIVE UP EATING LJUTEFISK FOR A MILO MEDINE APPROVED @HOME ACCOUNT
I'D STOP HARASSING SCRAPPY FOR A MILO MEDINE APPROVED @HOME ACCOUNT!!!
I'm not listed even ONCE on Scrappy424's list and I'm PISSED OFF!!!!
Teh Vjampire Lestat, soon to be
"BoyToy of the Romathian Ladies Anarchist Club and Terrorist Society"
_______________________________________________________________________
The Grand Wombat
"Bufford L. Hatchett" <buf...@hatttchett.com> confessed:
>> > > > tested the metal of ARA and found it to be rather weak. I hate to say
>> > > > this, but they seem to be victorious here. There's a whole lot of Thor
>> > > > types here, but only a few Odinics.
>> >
>> > > Your view and mine on Odin clearly differ. The Wanderer advises me to
>> > > pick my fights, and not to bother with arguing with fools. I've taken
>> > > most of my posting elsewhere, rather than waste time with the spammers.
>> > > If you consider that a sign of weakness, that's your prerogative. I see
>> > > it as denying the fleas their supper.
>> >
>> >
>> Dirk needs Meow.
>
> Bufford needs Aspirin.
>
--
"Far above the ocean, deep under the sea
There's a river runnin' dry because of you and me" - Mercury Rev
mhm 20x10
meow -- wombats r us
Paul Murray
>>But, as was discussed at length, this is still a voluntary proceedure.
>>If the person who controls the moderation address does not wish to
>>relinquish it, they cannot be forced to do so.[0] What your group has
>>done is move that power up a level to someone other than the day to
>>day moderators.
>*disinterested party*. :) Someone we trust to enforce the will of the
>people in this matter. Someone who hasn't got any stake in the newsgroup
>itself. While it's not perfect, and it *could* lead to problems, it's
>still more than no system at all. :)
Oh I agree, and wasn't trying to attack your system, just making it
clear to the people discussing this group, who presumably weren't
around for your discussion, that in the end it does all come down to a
single person and you have to believe they will act honourably.
-Paul Murray
Ivar Wiljonsen
Hilsen,
- Ivar Wiljonsen
"Thou Shalt Not Think Highly Of Thyself"
- Law of Jante
Ivar Wiljonsen
Rebecca Ore
> Rebecca needs to figure out what side she's on
>
Anti-bot.
Dirk Bruere
RedWolf wrote:
>
> > I'm certainly not the only one who sees Asatru as being something
> > seperate from 'paganism'.
> And this is our weakness. The elitest attitude of Asatruar has got to go.
...
If I may clarify.
Judaism, Xianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism... etc are monotheistic.
However, you don't get adherents running around claiming to be one with
other monotheists and diving into alt(soc).religion.monotheism. They are
not automatically all good friends, same culture, same ideals, same
morality etc. They are Xian, or Islamic... first, and monotheists a very
long distance second.
> > The Gods of the Northern Folk I see as dynamic archetypes with roots in
> > N European culture and genetics which link to me personally via these
> > features. I also have no interest in 'magic', even when spelled with a
> > 'k', since science does a far better job.
> It is your actions and deeds that makes you Asatru, not bloodline or culture
> alone.
I agree that the morality has a lot to do with it, but that comes under
the heading of 'culture'. As for genetics, I think that there is a
strong genetic component involved, certainly when it comes to personal
disposition. However, I'm not claiming that the dividing line falls
sharply between racial groups as commonly understood (although I know
what 'my type' looks like, as no doubt do you).
> I would disagree with you concerning magick but this has nothing to do with
> the series of posts.
If magick exists then it will one day be absorbed into the scientific
worldview.
> May the gods walk with you
You also.
Dirk
RedWolf
Hey, isn't this the way the ARA use to be. : )
Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:381B63CA...@kbnet.co.uk...
>
> If I may clarify.
> Judaism, Xianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism... etc are monotheistic.
> However, you don't get adherents running around claiming to be one with
> other monotheists and diving into alt(soc).religion.monotheism. They are
> not automatically all good friends, same culture, same ideals, same
> morality etc. They are Xian, or Islamic... first, and monotheists a very
> long distance second.
I can agree with what you are trying to say but all of these people worship
a different god. Now for this instance, lets say a person who is Norse
Wiccan or lets say a Norse Pagan is honoring any one of the Aesir or Vanir,
what makes these people so far removed from Asatru, that they could not be a
part of what we believe.
I am not saying that every single person who is Norse Wiccan or Norse Pagan
or any other term that creeps in, is Asatru. I do believe that easily 80 to
90 percent of these people could be Asatru, if the message could reach these
people without insults.
>
>
> > > The Gods of the Northern Folk I see as dynamic archetypes with roots
in
> > > N European culture and genetics which link to me personally via these
> > > features. I also have no interest in 'magic', even when spelled with a
> > > 'k', since science does a far better job.
>
> > It is your actions and deeds that makes you Asatru, not bloodline or
culture
> > alone.
>
> I agree that the morality has a lot to do with it, but that comes under
> the heading of 'culture'. As for genetics, I think that there is a
> strong genetic component involved, certainly when it comes to personal
> disposition. However, I'm not claiming that the dividing line falls
> sharply between racial groups as commonly understood (although I know
> what 'my type' looks like, as no doubt do you).
To a point I can agree. I do not agree that morality comes under the
heading of culture.
>
>
> > I would disagree with you concerning magick but this has nothing to do
with
> > the series of posts.
>
> If magick exists then it will one day be absorbed into the scientific
> worldview.
I am sorry but that is a horrible thought. There are some things that
science does not need to know.
May the gods walk with you
Mike
Dirk Bruere
RedWolf wrote:
>
> Greetings Dirk,
>
> Hey, isn't this the way the ARA use to be. : )
And will be.
> > If I may clarify.
> > Judaism, Xianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism... etc are monotheistic.
> > However, you don't get adherents running around claiming to be one with
> > other monotheists and diving into alt(soc).religion.monotheism. They are
> > not automatically all good friends, same culture, same ideals, same
> > morality etc. They are Xian, or Islamic... first, and monotheists a very
> > long distance second.
> I can agree with what you are trying to say but all of these people worship
> a different god. Now for this instance, lets say a person who is Norse
Not true of the first three (in theory its YHVH).
> Wiccan or lets say a Norse Pagan is honoring any one of the Aesir or Vanir,
> what makes these people so far removed from Asatru, that they could not be a
> part of what we believe.
> I am not saying that every single person who is Norse Wiccan or Norse Pagan
> or any other term that creeps in, is Asatru. I do believe that easily 80 to
> 90 percent of these people could be Asatru, if the message could reach these
> people without insults.
I agree. However, I thought you were referring to 'pagans' in general,
irrespective as to whether the Gods are Greek, Roman, Shinto, Santeria,
Hindu etc. I see very little common ground here.
> > > > N European culture and genetics which link to me personally via these
> > > > features. I also have no interest in 'magic', even when spelled with a
> > > > 'k', since science does a far better job.
> > > It is your actions and deeds that makes you Asatru, not bloodline or
> culture
> > > alone.
> > I agree that the morality has a lot to do with it, but that comes under
> > the heading of 'culture'. As for genetics, I think that there is a
> > strong genetic component involved, certainly when it comes to personal
> > disposition. However, I'm not claiming that the dividing line falls
> > sharply between racial groups as commonly understood (although I know
> > what 'my type' looks like, as no doubt do you).
> To a point I can agree. I do not agree that morality comes under the
> heading of culture.
Then we agree to disagree.
> > If magick exists then it will one day be absorbed into the scientific
> > worldview.
> I am sorry but that is a horrible thought. There are some things that
> science does not need to know.
I see no distiction between 'science' and 'us'. And we certainly need to
know.
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
Tim Doughty wrote:
> It's nice hearing a voice of reason, Mike. I also think that we (Asatruar)
> should focus more on similarities than differences in this argument. Even
> within Asatru there's a wide variance among beliefs: lots of us hold for "hard
> polytheism"; that is, all the gods are distinct personalities, not "aspects" of
> something else, nor personifications of nature, and yet others who call
> themselves Asatruar go for the "archtype" theory, which is a long way off from
> that.
Maybe I'm somewhere in the middle then. I see them as archetypes, but
not of the Jungian variety. More like dynamic beings created/exposed
from/in the psyche of those playing Ouija. In this case, the 'players'
are quite large populations.
> I think that the mutual suspician sometimes encountered between Asatru and
> Wicca, as well as other pagan paths, goes back to old wounds from the past,
I think the animosity, if that is the right word, arises due to having a
very different worldview and morality/ethics. Particularly what might
loosely be termed 'military virtue' versus a (usually) unspoken
pacifism.
> personality conflicts, insecurity, or (dare I say it) old fashioned
> intolerance. Asatruar tend to be opinionated, and we don't always modify our
> behavior successfuly, for my taste anyway, when dealing with others
And why should we? :-)
Seriously, I think Asatru attracts the kind of people who are
forthright, outspoken, rather harsh and determined. (At least more so
than Wicca).
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
sigwyrd wrote:
>
> I'd like to go one further than the last post and add my own two-cents here.
> Personally, I don't care if you practice wicca, santeria or if your
> religion is standing on your head in the corner, what it comes down to is
> that we ALL do NOT fall within the mainstream Judeo-Christian style of
Neither do Hindus or Buddhists, but they don't get the flak because they
are established, coherent systems backed with big numbers.
> worship. One of the main things that caused me to look elswhere was that
> because I chose to look at things differently from others I was wrong. Isn't
> that what is being said when *pagans* aren't as good as *heathens* ?
Essentially, yes. Everyone chooses what they think is the best (if only
for them).
> Yes, I do class heathens and pagans differently. Heathens tend to be
> more scholarly and reconstructionist than pagans. Heathens are also more
> focused, less eclectic than pagans; they tend to want their beliefs to be
> pure strain, and not a generalized grouping of beliefs from varying sources.
> However, the point remains that pagans and heathens have things in common.
Less in common that the monotheistic religions.
> We are generally pantheistic or polytheistic. We are all grouped under
> *satanist* as far as most Judeo-Xian power groups are concerned. We are all
> generally misunderstood by the public. We are often misportrayed in stories,
> movies etc. Last, we are all coming under attack politically.
Now we are talking politics, not religion.
> To me, it is irrelevant whether we like the views another group holds,
> as long as those views are not destructive or in direct conflict to us, our
> beliefs or our lifestyle. Actually, I believe there is much to gain from a
True, to a point. However, 'direct conflict' and 'not destructive' are
rather vague terms.
> sharing or uniting between the groups. When I say uniting, I do not mean an
> absorption of one group by another, I mean more a peace pact to prevent and
> correct attacks. Like it or not, there are politicos trying to abolish the
> practicing of heathen/pagan religions in our military. The attacks are
OK. So, we're mainly talking US politics.
There is no problem with an alliance designed to fight what is, for now,
a common threat using the tools provided - publicity, lobbying, legal
threats and litigation etc
> mainly against Wiccans right now, but if successful against them, who's
> next? What about the efforts of groups like the moral majority trying to get
> their way and outlaw us? Are you going to tell me that the Wiccans,
Outlaw? In what way?
> Santerians, Vodouns, etc, wouldn't make excellent allies if petitions etc
> become necessary? Remember, there are only a few thousand (at most) Asatruar
> in the states, while there are over three million wiccans, etc.
Well, maybe they ought to contribute a dollar a year to a legal fighting
fund designed to harrass the enemy. $3M per year spent in litigation and
palm greasing could work miracles.
> Since the need for allies could potentially be great, why drive them
> away with intolerance, name calling and other generally inhospitable
> actions? If you have some issues with them, then deal with the issues, not
Because that's the nature of all minority sects - splitting and
fratricide. It's easier to get at the heretic sitting next to us that
the real powers far away who seem immune.
> generalizations (like, you worship the northern gods, and have a genetic
> viewpoint on them therefor you are racist - example of generalizing). If you
> feel they abuse the runes, offer to teach. If you feel they are wrong in
> calling upon the Aesir Vanir and the Holy Wights in the ways that they do,
> then deal with it - TEACH!
> Asatru is about freedom, about being tru to the gods/goddesses/wights
> and ancestors. If the Aesir could make peace with the Vanir after an all out
> war, can't we make peace with those we don't necessarily agree with also?
No problems with conditional peace from my POV.
> Did the peace eradicate either the Aesir or the Vanir, or, did it strengthen
> both against the Jotuns ? Would either group have made peace if they still
> felt the need to be better than someone else?
Strength in numbers, esp when it has no religious agenda, only a well
defined political goal.
Dirk
RedWolf
Hey twice in one day, can this be a record. : )
Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:381E2369...@kbnet.co.uk...
> > behavior successfuly, for my taste anyway, when dealing with others
>
> And why should we? :-)
> Seriously, I think Asatru attracts the kind of people who are
> forthright, outspoken, rather harsh and determined. (At least more so
> than Wicca).
>
But their is always one thing that we forget, and that is love. I think we
do a great job banging on our chests and declaring how big and bad we are,
but we do have another aspect and love is one of those aspects. If Frey can
surrender the only weapon that will bring doom to the gods and midgard at
the battle of Ragnarok, for the hand and love of a woman, I think our people
should be able to speak a little bit more on this subject of love.
Mike
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> I think the animosity, if that is the right word, arises due to having a
> very different worldview and morality/ethics. Particularly what might
> loosely be termed 'military virtue' versus a (usually) unspoken pacifism.
If I may interject a word here, I should like to note that not all
Wiccans and by no means all Pagans are can be described as pacifist,
spoken or un-: the Rede is also subject to interpretation (and emotions
sometimes run pretty hot on the subject in the Wiccan community).
I think perhaps one difference may lie in the circumstance that Wicca
has the "do as ye will" clause, which seems to lead more to individual
than to concerted action.
<snip>
> Seriously, I think Asatru attracts the kind of people who are forthright,
> outspoken, rather harsh and determined. (At least more so than Wicca).
Again, this may perhaps be an overly broad generalization. I am
acquainted with a good many militant Wiccans who can and frequently do
come across as being forthright, outspoken, and rather harsh and
determined. I've been told that I do so, myself, on occasion.
Blessed be,
Baird
who would not have inserted himself into a very interesting conversation
had the word "Wicca" not caught his eye....
RedWolf
Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:381D0598...@kbnet.co.uk...
>
>
> RedWolf wrote:
> >
> > Greetings Dirk,
> >
> > Hey, isn't this the way the ARA use to be. : )
>
> And will be.
Hail to that!
>
>
> > I can agree with what you are trying to say but all of these people
worship
> > a different god. Now for this instance, lets say a person who is Norse
>
> Not true of the first three (in theory its YHVH).
Only by our point of view. If you where to pull worshipers in from all
three easily 80% would say they are different gods.
>
> > I am not saying that every single person who is Norse Wiccan or Norse
Pagan
> > or any other term that creeps in, is Asatru. I do believe that easily
80 to
> > 90 percent of these people could be Asatru, if the message could reach
these
> > people without insults.
>
> I agree. However, I thought you were referring to 'pagans' in general,
> irrespective as to whether the Gods are Greek, Roman, Shinto, Santeria,
> Hindu etc. I see very little common ground here.
As far as pagans who do not honor the Norse gods, we do have something in
common. We are all trying to breathe life into beliefs that Christianity
has surplanted. With this in common we need to be united in our stand that
our beliefs exist and are valid.
KATHLEE...@asu.edu
On Sun, 31 Oct 1999, Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
> If I may clarify.
> Judaism, Xianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism... etc are monotheistic.
> not automatically all good friends, same culture, same ideals, same
> morality etc. They are Xian, or Islamic... first, and monotheists a very
> long distance second.
However, although it is the case that Jews, Christians and Muslims
don't always get along they do have quite a bit in common, as a most will
admit. And all three generally agree that the other two, while still not
*right* are closer to the truth than people who are not part of one of the
three religions, after all they all agree that they worship the same
God. Zoroastrians are a bit different, because they are dualists
and on that baisis Jews, Muslims and Christians tend to regard them as being
beyond the pale. Although their are iirc a few Shi'i mullahs who argue in
favor of considering Zoroastrians Ahul Kitab (People of the Book), which is
the category that Jews and Christians are in. > >
Personally, I can see neo-Paganism going in a similar direction, lots
of different groups, with differing degrees of similarity between groups,
united by the general acknowledgement that we have more in common with each
other than with any one else.
-Katie
Dirk Bruere
RedWolf wrote:
> Hey twice in one day, can this be a record. : )
Depends on time zones :-)
> > And why should we? :-)
> > Seriously, I think Asatru attracts the kind of people who are
> > forthright, outspoken, rather harsh and determined. (At least more so
> > than Wicca).
> But their is always one thing that we forget, and that is love. I think we
> do a great job banging on our chests and declaring how big and bad we are,
> but we do have another aspect and love is one of those aspects. If Frey can
> surrender the only weapon that will bring doom to the gods and midgard at
> the battle of Ragnarok, for the hand and love of a woman, I think our people
> should be able to speak a little bit more on this subject of love.
That's probably true.
However, the general 'NewAge' environment is overflowing with gushing
pronouncements of love and brotherhood. However, if you visit any of
their NGs you'll see it being used as a weapon to beat opponents over
the head. The viciousness and hatred that such talk often masks is
sickening.
One of the reasons that I stayed with ARA is that it is the most polite
NG I've encountered, with the best 'feel' to it. Although there are
disagreements there is little of the petty vindictiveness and outright
insanity manifested in other similar NGs. Respect is given to respect.
Love is about doing, not talking.
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
Baird Stafford wrote:
>
> > I think the animosity, if that is the right word, arises due to having a
> > very different worldview and morality/ethics. Particularly what might
> > loosely be termed 'military virtue' versus a (usually) unspoken pacifism.
> If I may interject a word here, I should like to note that not all
> Wiccans and by no means all Pagans are can be described as pacifist,
> spoken or un-: the Rede is also subject to interpretation (and emotions
> sometimes run pretty hot on the subject in the Wiccan community).
That's true, but I'm really addressing stereotypes and generalities.
> I think perhaps one difference may lie in the circumstance that Wicca
> has the "do as ye will" clause, which seems to lead more to individual
> than to concerted action.
I think that may be such a truth as well.
> <snip>
>
> > Seriously, I think Asatru attracts the kind of people who are forthright,
> > outspoken, rather harsh and determined. (At least more so than Wicca).
> Again, this may perhaps be an overly broad generalization. I am
> acquainted with a good many militant Wiccans who can and frequently do
> come across as being forthright, outspoken, and rather harsh and
> determined. I've been told that I do so, myself, on occasion.
Well, I suppose it comes down to percentages, but on the whole we live
in an easy environment for our beliefs. See 'Falun Gong' etc
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
Tim Doughty wrote:
>
> >>Maybe I'm somewhere in the middle then. I see them as archetypes, but
> not of the Jungian variety. More like dynamic beings created/exposed
> from/in the psyche of those playing Ouija. In this case, the 'players'
> are quite large populations.<<<<
> An interesting metaphor. Do you mean that when people play Ouija they
> create/expose beings which then interact with them, and who have no independent
> reality beyond the game, and who then "disappear" when the players leave off?
Just the opposite.
I see no reason why such composite creations should disappear. If I may
use the hologram analogy, when a hologram is broken into several pieces
each piece contains a full image, but with degraded detail.
Human personalities are very multifaceted things. I assume both you and
I, if we want, can 'hear' our mother or father commenting on (say) what
we did today. We carry a quite accurate model of them in our heads, and
such models don't merely run when 'we' (whatever that really is) allow
them to.
> Expanding this to a group of worshippers, do the gods only have form while we
> are worshipping or otherwise attending to them? I'd like to hear more.
You could try alt.memetics
Dirk
RedWolf
Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:381F3F9E...@kbnet.co.uk...
>
>
> That's probably true.
> However, the general 'NewAge' environment is overflowing with gushing
> pronouncements of love and brotherhood. However, if you visit any of
> their NGs you'll see it being used as a weapon to beat opponents over
> the head. The viciousness and hatred that such talk often masks is
> sickening.
In many ways this is true but Asatru is much different from the newage
environment.
>
> One of the reasons that I stayed with ARA is that it is the most polite
> NG I've encountered, with the best 'feel' to it. Although there are
> disagreements there is little of the petty vindictiveness and outright
> insanity manifested in other similar NGs. Respect is given to respect.
He hits the bullseye. I have learned more from reading and responding to
posts on the ARA than any book in print.
>
> Love is about doing, not talking.
I do not agree with this. It is a part of us that should be discussed more.
Manny Olds
> I can agree with what you are trying to say but all of these people worship
> a different god. Now for this instance, lets say a person who is Norse
> Wiccan or lets say a Norse Pagan is honoring any one of the Aesir or Vanir,
> what makes these people so far removed from Asatru, that they could not be a
> part of what we believe.
And it is quite interesting to discuss our gods with others who are
interested in them. But most of the people who post in
soc.religion.paganism are *not* centered on the Norse gods.
And there is not much interest at all here, generally, in discussing the
details of the Asatru religion and community. There is no reason that
there *ought* to be. That kind of discussion would naturally be of much
greater interest to Asatruers than to others, just as discussions of the
Rede are naturally most compelling for Wiccans.
I find my srp-posting energy mostly taken up by "Perhaps that is true for
most Wiccanesque pagans, but it does not apply to Asatru" informational
responses. I know the people here are interested to know that there are
differences, but I don't see much interest in pursuing it further.
In an ideal world, an Asatru newsgroup would be a forum where you could
have all kinds of discussions centered on Asatru, or springing out of
Asatru. And with the conventions of the discussion, the unspoken cultural
biases, also springing out of Asatru. That would be the *best* way for
people to find out what we are about: watch Asatruers being Asatru.
--
Manny Olds <old...@clark.net> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
Land of Confusion <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma>
Frigga's Web <http://members.tripod.com/~InFrith/friggas.htm>
Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web <http://www.clark.net/~oldsma/reeves.htm>
Vingolf Fellowship <http://www.vingolf.org/>
Dirk Bruere
RedWolf wrote:
>
> >
> > Love is about doing, not talking.
> I do not agree with this. It is a part of us that should be discussed more.
Maybe, but I don't see Asatru as a religion of 'love'.
I don't expect Odin to love me, nor any of the other Gods. As for
whether I love them, I think that they may find it irrelevent. Odin, for
example, would prize loyalty above love IMHO. However, I must admit to
being uncertain about the other Gods.
Within the community of Asatruar, then comradeship definately, love
possibly.
Dirk
Steven T. Hatton
c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com
> Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:381F3F9E...@kbnet.co.uk...
> >
> >
> > That's probably true.
> > However, the general 'NewAge' environment is overflowing with gushing
> > pronouncements of love and brotherhood. However, if you visit any of
> > their NGs you'll see it being used as a weapon to beat opponents over
> > the head. The viciousness and hatred that such talk often masks is
> > sickening.
> In many ways this is true but Asatru is much different from the newage
> environment.
<Grrrrrrr>The pagans tend to consider "NewAge" to ryhme with "Sewage", and want little
to do with it. To characterize pagans as "NewAge" is stereotyping at its worst. Yeah,
we have our "peace, love and brown rice" contingent, but the Asatru community has to
deal with the "drunken white supremacist" contingent. Neither group is terribly proud
of it's fringes.
> > One of the reasons that I stayed with ARA is that it is the most polite
> > NG I've encountered, with the best 'feel' to it. Although there are
> > disagreements there is little of the petty vindictiveness and outright
> > insanity manifested in other similar NGs. Respect is given to respect.
> He hits the bullseye. I have learned more from reading and responding to
> posts on the ARA than any book in print.
Then ARA must have changed, because when I was there it was full of flames, racist
trolls, misogynists, and pagan bashers.
Ravan
--
Ravan Asteris rasteris / at \ rahul / dot \ net
(squish "/ and \" to make symbols like "&")
http://www.rahul.net/rasteris/
c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com
> In soc.religion.paganism RedWolf <md...@shore.net> wrote:
> > I can agree with what you are trying to say but all of these people worship
> > a different god. Now for this instance, lets say a person who is Norse
> > Wiccan or lets say a Norse Pagan is honoring any one of the Aesir or Vanir,
> > what makes these people so far removed from Asatru, that they could not be a
> > part of what we believe.
> And it is quite interesting to discuss our gods with others who are
> interested in them. But most of the people who post in
> soc.religion.paganism are *not* centered on the Norse gods.
That's because most non-wiccans run away.
> And there is not much interest at all here, generally, in discussing the
> details of the Asatru religion and community. There is no reason that
> there *ought* to be. That kind of discussion would naturally be of much
> greater interest to Asatruers than to others, just as discussions of the
> Rede are naturally most compelling for Wiccans.
But not to non-Wiccans. Soc.religion.paganism is *NOT* a "Wiccan" newsgroup!! Anyone
who thinks it is needs their head exammined!!
> I find my srp-posting energy mostly taken up by "Perhaps that is true for
> most Wiccanesque pagans, but it does not apply to Asatru" informational
> responses. I know the people here are interested to know that there are
> differences, but I don't see much interest in pursuing it further.
That's because most Asatruar won't "deign" to associate with non-Asatru.
> In an ideal world, an Asatru newsgroup would be a forum where you could
> have all kinds of discussions centered on Asatru, or springing out of
> Asatru. And with the conventions of the discussion, the unspoken cultural
> biases, also springing out of Asatru. That would be the *best* way for
> people to find out what we are about: watch Asatruers being Asatru.
In an Asatru ghetto...?
c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com
> Tim Doughty wrote:
>
> > It's nice hearing a voice of reason, Mike. I also think that we (Asatruar)
> > should focus more on similarities than differences in this argument. Even
> > within Asatru there's a wide variance among beliefs: lots of us hold for "hard
> > polytheism"; that is, all the gods are distinct personalities, not "aspects" of
> > something else, nor personifications of nature, and yet others who call
> > themselves Asatruar go for the "archtype" theory, which is a long way off from
> > that.
> Maybe I'm somewhere in the middle then. I see them as archetypes, but
> not of the Jungian variety. More like dynamic beings created/exposed
> from/in the psyche of those playing Ouija. In this case, the 'players'
> are quite large populations.
To me, the gods are "built" or "separated" from the formless void deity by the belief
and needs of their faithful. They all are still part of the whole, but they also take
on aspects and personalities that are distinct and persistant. No, I'm not Wiccan *or*
Asatru.
> > I think that the mutual suspician sometimes encountered between Asatru and
> > Wicca, as well as other pagan paths, goes back to old wounds from the past,
> I think the animosity, if that is the right word, arises due to having a
> very different worldview and morality/ethics. Particularly what might
> loosely be termed 'military virtue' versus a (usually) unspoken
> pacifism.
Damnit, not all pagans (or even Wiccans) are fluff-bunny pacifists! While it is true
that many of the "newer" varieties still have trouble facing and accepting their own
human "darknesses", there still are those who hold a place for the warrior in their
traditions and ways. Instead of standing with those of us who refuse to be seduced by
the "fluff side", most Asatruar just say "Ewww, Pagans are all just pacifist chicken
shits. I'm a heathen, and won't associate with wimpy pagan paths."
> > personality conflicts, insecurity, or (dare I say it) old fashioned
> > intolerance. Asatruar tend to be opinionated, and we don't always modify our
> > behavior successfuly, for my taste anyway, when dealing with others
> And why should we? :-)
> Seriously, I think Asatru attracts the kind of people who are
> forthright, outspoken, rather harsh and determined. (At least more so
> than Wicca).
Then you obviously don't know many Wiccan or Pagan elders! And Pagan != Wicca (Wicca
is a branch of paganism.)
Steelfoot
Steelfoot wrote in message ...
>
>c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com wrote in message
><7vqp4u$qs5$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
>>In article <F9XT3.38250$Ow5....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, Manny Olds
>(old...@clark.net) wrote:
>>> In soc.religion.paganism RedWolf <md...@shore.net> wrote:
>>
>
>>That's because most Asatruar won't "deign" to associate with non-Asatru.
>>
>
>That is a bit of an exageration. Won't 'deign' to find an excuse not to share
a
>horn - that I can agree with. Won't 'deign' to find an unsuspecting soul to
>trick into filling the horn - that I can agree with. Won't 'deign' to shy away
>from conflict - that I can agree with.
>
>I have a good number of friends who are not 'Asatruar' - and for that matter
>are not Pagan or Wiccan. ***Gasp*** - I even have friends who are mainstream
>Christian. And Family.
>
>So - we go from one war to another? Is that how it is to be?
>
>
>>> In an ideal world, an Asatru newsgroup would be a forum where you could
>>> have all kinds of discussions centered on Asatru, or springing out of
>>> Asatru. And with the conventions of the discussion, the unspoken cultural
>>> biases, also springing out of Asatru. That would be the *best* way for
>>> people to find out what we are about: watch Asatruers being Asatru.
>>
>>In an Asatru ghetto...?
>>
>> Ravan
>
>
>Preferable to many other pit-holes I am familiar with. Such as the one that
>proclaims without becoming.
>
>Steelfoot
>
>
Manny Olds
> That's because most non-wiccans run away.
Well, I hang around, more as an interested guest than as a member of the
group.
> But not to non-Wiccans. Soc.religion.paganism is *NOT* a "Wiccan"
> newsgroup!! Anyone who thinks it is needs their head exammined!!
I think that any regular reader would observe that it is mainly a
community of Wiccanesque neopagans. Most of those who are not explicitly
Wiccan or witches are working off Wiccan-based assumptions. It's true that
it need not be a Wiccan group, but in practice it seems to work out that
way.
> That's because most Asatruar won't "deign" to associate with non-Asatru.
As I originally mentioned, there are some *big* cultural differences. It
can be as frustrating for an Asatruer to try to participate in a
Wiccan-dominated discussion as it is for a Wiccan to jump into an
Asatru-based conversation. The assumptions and conventions are not
automatically compatible. And Asatru is really a completely different
religion from Wiccan and wiccanesque neo-sui-generic paganism.
The burden should be on others to demonstrate why Asatru should be covered
in a generic group rather than in a group of its own. And (aside from
number of believers), why is that situation different from Hinduism or
Sikhism or Shinto or Native American religions?
Really, the discussion should not be on replacing our on-paper srp token
niche with sra.moderated, it should be on replacing our existing ara with
sra.moderated.
> In an Asatru ghetto...?
Usenet is organized by topics. Asatru is a different topic. That is not
ghettoization, it is systematization or taxonomy.
Ideally, I suppose it would be soc.religion.paganism.neopagan.moderated
and soc.religion.paganism.retropagan.moderated (to split into Celtic,
Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Asatru groups as numbers increase). But the
soc.religion hierarchy is set up for soc.religion.specific entries
already.
Remember, just because I insist that Wicca and wiccanesque neopaganism are
*different* from Asatru doesn't mean that I think there is anything wrong
with them. And I don't think that there is anything wrong with srp as it
goes--it is a busy and interesting group that serves its community well
and which behaves decently to guests. I read it every day.
But not all bugs are insects.
--
Manny Olds <old...@clark.net> of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
My two important rules of urban life:
(1) Always be ready to walk a couple of miles or wait a couple of hours.
(2) Never walk past a clean fountain or bathroom without using it.
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> But not to non-Wiccans. Soc.religion.paganism is *NOT* a "Wiccan"
> newsgroup!! Anyone who thinks it is needs their head exammined!!
In point of fact, an Asatruar was a member of the committee that wrote
the Charter for the newsgroup to help insure that srp would not become
strictly Wiccan in nature, and was also a member of the first board of
moderators.
The present board of moderators, although we lack an Asatruar,
represents a wide variety of Pagan faiths including one of African
derivation. In point of fact, I believe (though my memory may be faulty
on this point) that I may be the only Wiccan presently serving as Modkin
- and I am an Elder of one of the initiatory Trads which does not
necessarily subscribe to either the fluffbunny versions of Wicca nor any
of the rosier New Age views.
Which is not to say that no one espousing those views posts here: the
Modkin are limited by the Charter in the kinds of article we may reject
and even the silliest newage sewage is protected. On the other hand,
Asatruar not only are welcome to srp but two have been pre-approved to
post within the past week or so - meaning that articles from them are
not delayed until a Modkin gets around to reviewing them but are
injected directly into the newsgroup.
The reason Manny finds so little discussion of Asatru on srp is that few
Asatruar have availed themselves of the newsgroup and many of us
presently here do not feel ourselves qualified to comment on a religion
about which we know little or nothing (I am certainly among that
number!) - not that Asatruar are unwelcome.
Blessed be,
Baird
Dirk Bruere
c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com wrote:
>
> > In an ideal world, an Asatru newsgroup would be a forum where you could
> > have all kinds of discussions centered on Asatru, or springing out of
> > Asatru. And with the conventions of the discussion, the unspoken cultural
> > biases, also springing out of Asatru. That would be the *best* way for
> > people to find out what we are about: watch Asatruers being Asatru.
> In an Asatru ghetto...?
>
You favour renting us a room in the pagan ghetto? (If we don't make too
much noise).
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
"Steven T. Hatton" wrote:
>
> http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/balder.html#death
>
I think the point is that our Gods don't demand that we love them, nor
that we love our enemies.
Asatru is not a religion of love, as Xianity purports to be.
I would call it a religion of duty and allegience.
Dirk
grimnir
c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com
Distribution:
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
<Grin>Well, the building is already built, you see, so the rent is cheap.
And as far as noise is concerned, if you keep it down to the level of
those Wiccan folk over there, we'll get along fine... And later, if you
want to build your own addition, we can help.. ;-)
Seriously, both Asatruar and Wiccans need to learn to converse and respect
each other. They both have their own alt.* groups, but neither has enough
alone for a big 8 soc.* group.
And s.r.p was designed to be extensible for any time when subgroups wanted
to have specific areas, i.e. soc.religion.paganism.wicca or
soc.religion.paganism.asatru
Ravan
BTW, if people wanted to do srpa and srpw, I would support it.
RedWolf
Asatru is a religion with a full range of emotions and love is one of those
emotions. It has its place at the table just like all the others do.
May the gods walk with you
Mike
Dirk Bruere <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3820A83A...@kbnet.co.uk...
RedWolf
In reading your post, it seems their needs to be some clarification. 1. I
still and will always support the ARA 2. I continue to push to see the SRA
created and will support that also, Hail to the efforts of Swain Wodening!!
You see on SRP what you choose to see. I choose to see people who may have
an interest in our gods or just an interest in those people who are Asatru.
I like the idea of more people being able to say that they have had dialogue
with those of us who are Asatru and be able to say everything that we are
and when it comes time for the racist question, they can say that is
something that we are not. I have never claimed to be a heathen, I am a
Pagan and I am proud of it. I look at other pagans as allies for that is
what they are, they have the courage and strength to follow their beliefs
and stand as a Pagan in a Christian world, this is good enough for me.
A greater dialogue between Asatruar and other Pagans will give strength to
everyone involved. We have much to learn from each other.
RedWolf
>
>
> c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com wrote:
> > In an Asatru ghetto...?
> >
>
> You favour renting us a room in the pagan ghetto? (If we don't make too
> much noise).
>
I need a closet big enough to store mead in.
Mike
Ivar Wiljonsen
willing to be open to Asatru ways, but you can't take the Asatru out of
a man who has troth. As an Asatruar I can't help but feel compelled to
correct nonAsa folk when they abuse and misunderstand a Norse practice
they are using. Some of the
pet peaves I have about universalist misuses of the Nordic ways are:
1) Wiccans and Pagans viewing the Runes as divination tools, and not
realizing their true potential, and not seeing that: "Runes are the
breath of Odin and the building blocks of all elements of the nine
worlds
2) Wiccans and Pagans worshipping our gods while incorporating nonNordic
gods.
THAT'S DISRESPECTFUL TO OUR GODS AND A NO NO IN ASATRU!
3) Wiccans and Pagans viewing Freja as some world goddess i.e.,
mother/maiden/crone ect. THAT'S DISRESPECTFUL TO FREJA!
4) Wiccans and Pagans mixing Norse and Kabbalist traditions such as
astrology and trying to look for a nordic equivelant to eqate it with
that just isn't there!
Most Asartruars on this NG will tell you that's a NO NO!
5) I hate New Age authors who don't back up what they publish with
research with a passion!
6) The lack of sexual equality among the pantheons worshipped among
Wiccans and Pagans. It's always like "The goddess this and the goddess
that!"... Jeez out least the gods in Asatru lore are viewed as sexually
androgenous considering the many examples of Odin, Thor, and Loki
turning into women to learn certain things like Seidr ect. It's very
obvious that in christianity and wicca their gods are not balanced
sexually in their archtypes.
Well I can go on and on, but I think you all can see my points
unbiasedly.
Hilsen,
- Ivar Wiljonsen
"Thou Shalt Not Think Highly Of Thyself"
- Law of Jante
RedWolf
<c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com> wrote in message
news:7vqp4u$qs5$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> In article <F9XT3.38250$Ow5....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, Manny Olds
(old...@clark.net) wrote:
> > In soc.religion.paganism RedWolf <md...@shore.net> wrote:
..
>
> That's because most Asatruar won't "deign" to associate with non-Asatru.
This is what you choose to see. I have hope that you will change from this
point of view and see a more positive reality.
Mike
c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com
Distribution:
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
In article <ZZfU3.41387$Ow5....@dfw-read.news.verio.net>, Manny Olds (old...@clark.net) wrote:
> In soc.religion.paganism c.c.sb...@18.killspam.us.com wrote:
> > But not to non-Wiccans. Soc.religion.paganism is *NOT* a "Wiccan"
> > newsgroup!! Anyone who thinks it is needs their head exammined!!
> I think that any regular reader would observe that it is mainly a
> community of Wiccanesque neopagans. Most of those who are not explicitly
> Wiccan or witches are working off Wiccan-based assumptions. It's true that
> it need not be a Wiccan group, but in practice it seems to work out that
> way.
I am not a "Wiccanesque" neopagan, and not all neopagans are Wiccan or
"Wiccanesque"! Just because we get outnumbered (due to the absence of
Asatruar - hint, hint) on a regular basis doesn't mean we don't exist,
or that the group is only for Wiccanoids!!
> > That's because most Asatruar won't "deign" to associate with non-Asatru.
> As I originally mentioned, there are some *big* cultural differences. It
> can be as frustrating for an Asatruer to try to participate in a
> Wiccan-dominated discussion as it is for a Wiccan to jump into an
> Asatru-based conversation. The assumptions and conventions are not
> automatically compatible. And Asatru is really a completely different
> religion from Wiccan and wiccanesque neo-sui-generic paganism.
And for the most part, both annoy me because they *both* assume that your
worldview is the same as theirs.
> The burden should be on others to demonstrate why Asatru should be covered
> in a generic group rather than in a group of its own. And (aside from
> number of believers), why is that situation different from Hinduism or
> Sikhism or Shinto or Native American religions?
Why? The Asatru are the ones wanting another group to be established,
therefore the burden of proof that is *is not already covered* falls on
them. This group is open to and supportive of Asatruar, and other
pagan/heathen followers. As far as Hindu, Sikh, or Shinto are concerned,
when Asatru has more adherents and content posters than all of the others
covered by this generic group, then it would be appropriate usenet
nomenclature, taxonomy, and allocation of resources to have a
soc.religion.asatru.
> Really, the discussion should not be on replacing our on-paper srp token
> niche with sra.moderated, it should be on replacing our existing ara with
> sra.moderated.
Token? Only if you chose not to participate does it become token.
Essentially, s.r.p does not discriminate or tokenize Asatru, they do it to
themselves by their refusal to hob-nob with "wiccanesque" pagans. Why
don't you do what arw did? They simply added arw.moderated. Quite
frankly, there are lots more of them than either of us, and they didn't go
for big 8 space.
> > In an Asatru ghetto...?
> Usenet is organized by topics. Asatru is a different topic. That is not
> ghettoization, it is systematization or taxonomy.
No, comp.language.* is a different topic. Asatru is a recreated
non-christian religion, just like some other flavors of paganism. It
doesn't matter whether you call yourselves "heathens" and claim that makes
you better that those "fluffy-bunny wiccanesque" prattlers that call
themselves pagan. If you call a turd a rose, it will still stink.
> Ideally, I suppose it would be soc.religion.paganism.neopagan.moderated
> and soc.religion.paganism.retropagan.moderated (to split into Celtic,
> Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Asatru groups as numbers increase). But the
> soc.religion hierarchy is set up for soc.religion.specific entries
> already.
Actually, when the group name was developed, it was intended to become
soc.religion.paganism, with subgroups soc.religion paganism.wicca,
soc.religion.paganism.druid, soc.religion.paganism.asatru,
soc.religion.paganism.stregheria, etc. as interest increased in the
subareas. Also, if you tried to split it along neo-pagan and retro-pagan
lines, you would end up with Wiccans in both, depending on how much of the
"passed down from antiquity" line that some trads spout that they believe!
> Remember, just because I insist that Wicca and wiccanesque neopaganism are
> *different* from Asatru doesn't mean that I think there is anything wrong
> with them.
Then why is it so important to be separated? Why is there only Wicca and
"wiccanesque" neopaganism v.s. Asatru in your map of paganism?
> And I don't think that there is anything wrong with srp as it
> goes--it is a busy and interesting group that serves its community well
> and which behaves decently to guests. I read it every day.
Yet my point is that Asatruar need not be "guests". I realize that a lot
of Wiccans and wiccanesque pagans need to realize that there is life
without the wiccan rede, but when the others shun the group because it
contains Wiccan material it does not help that realization along.
> But not all bugs are insects.
But all insects are still classified as bugs.
Ravan
Ulftonn
>In my experience Manny you can only take the wicca out of a man if he is
>willing to be open to Asatru ways, but you can't take the Asatru out of
>a man who has troth. As an Asatruar I can't help but feel compelled to
>correct nonAsa folk when they abuse and misunderstand a Norse practice
>they are using. Some of the
>pet peaves I have about universalist misuses of the Nordic ways are:
>
>1) Wiccans and Pagans viewing the Runes as divination tools, and not
>realizing their true potential, and not seeing that: "Runes are the
>breath of Odin and the building blocks of all elements of the nine
>worlds
>
Breath of Odin? Building blocks of the elements? You state you expect backing
in research, not that I doubt you but where did these two points come from. I
am not the most read person, I have however read quite a bit and have never
seen any of the older sources refer to them as either?
>2) Wiccans and Pagans worshipping our gods while incorporating nonNordic
>gods.
>THAT'S DISRESPECTFUL TO OUR GODS AND A NO NO IN ASATRU!
>
Hmm as a whole correct politly however the Gods and Goddesses can take care of
any insult they feel quite well themselfs. I do however remember reading that
during the era of conversion there where Norse familys who just added Christ to
the list of Gods they delt with?
>3) Wiccans and Pagans viewing Freja as some world goddess i.e.,
>mother/maiden/crone ect. THAT'S DISRESPECTFUL TO FREJA!
>
Freja is more than capable with dealing with any insult she feels, again a
polite statement about Her not being a all in one Goddess and a polite
discussion of who She is goes a long way.
>4) Wiccans and Pagans mixing Norse and Kabbalist traditions such as
>astrology and trying to look for a nordic equivelant to eqate it with
>that just isn't there!
>Most Asartruars on this NG will tell you that's a NO NO!
>
Hmm most?
>5) I hate New Age authors who don't back up what they publish with
>research with a passion!
>
You see this everywhere. Support the ones that do, they write more.
>6) The lack of sexual equality among the pantheons worshipped among
>Wiccans and Pagans. It's always like "The goddess this and the goddess
>that!"... Jeez out least the gods in Asatru lore are viewed as sexually
>androgenous considering the many examples of Odin, Thor, and Loki
>turning into women to learn certain things like Seidr ect. It's very
>obvious that in christianity and wicca their gods are not balanced
>sexually in their archtypes.
>
You know I dont see this in the Wiccans I am around. Never assume that all or
most Wiccans are Dianics.
>Well I can go on and on, but I think you all can see my points
>unbiasedly.
>
> Hilsen,
> - Ivar Wiljonsen
>
>"Thou Shalt Not Think Highly Of Thyself"
> - Law of Jante
>
Ulftonn
Greg Shetler
Ivar Wiljonsen wrote:
>
> Well I can go on and on, but I think you all can see my points
> unbiasedly.
Followed you up to this point. Didn't agree 100%, but you didn't expect
me to, did you? :)
At this point, though, I balk. Nothing unbiased either in your
statements, or in the audience to which you are pitching them.
Dux
Greg Shetler
RedWolf wrote:
>
> Greetings Dirk,
>
> Asatru is a religion with a full range of emotions and love is one of those
> emotions. It has its place at the table just like all the others do.
I think the key is that we are not commanded to "love our neighbor as we
love ourselves". Rather, by example, we are taught to love our kin, but
with a tough enough heart to recognize wrong-doing and try to correct
it.
That is, "tough-love" to Kin, rather than "universal love" to all.
Dux
Russ Gardener
Wiljonsen) wrote:
>4) Wiccans and Pagans mixing Norse and Kabbalist traditions such as
>astrology and trying to look for a nordic equivelant to eqate it with
>that just isn't there!
>Most Asartruars on this NG will tell you that's a NO NO!
Hi Ivar!
I know that Lavrans is doing some interesting research on this. I am
an astrologer but I don't necessarily think there is a link and I
don't mix the systems when I work.
I'm of the opinion our ancestors probably did not practise astrology
as we know it....there is no evidence that they did. Yet "IF" a
genuine link seems to exist and it is discovered in this age, there is
no reason why it can't become a part of our tradition.
For the moment, though, I'm quite happy to keep it all separate.
By the way, I really don't care for those packs of cards, loosely
based on the tarot which have just cropped up everywhere. They take
in absolutely everything and try and link it all up. A little bit of
knowledge here mixed with a little bit there. All very confusing and
just skimming the surface.
Regards
Russ Gardener
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/5804
Russ Gardener
wrote:
>RedWolf wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Love is about doing, not talking.
>
>> I do not agree with this. It is a part of us that should be discussed more.
>
>Maybe, but I don't see Asatru as a religion of 'love'.
>I don't expect Odin to love me, nor any of the other Gods. As for
>whether I love them, I think that they may find it irrelevent. Odin, for
>example, would prize loyalty above love IMHO. However, I must admit to
>being uncertain about the other Gods.
>
>Within the community of Asatruar, then comradeship definately, love
>possibly.
>
>Dirk
>
Dirk
That's a good one, and something which gets talked about in the MX
Hearth discussion group on the Ostara mythology book.
There does seem to be a tendency to see Odin as many things, but not
necessarily loving.
I think much depends on whether you see the Gods and Goddesses as very
separate from each other or whether you take the view that some hold
that Odin somehow contains all within his own nature. If the latter
is true, then love is very much a part of him. If the former is true,
then I agree that we would probably look more to some of the other
deities for a more readily perceived demonstration of love.
I think you are talking about the compassionate love rather than the
sexual kind of love that we would associate with Freya (not to deny
her other kinds of love).
For me, one of the most obviously loving of the goddesses is Frigga.
As great protector of the family she is our divine pattern of the
all-embracing mother.
For me, I cannot contemplate Ostara as anything other than a being of
complete and total love and joy. I recognise that not all here would
feel a connection with Ostara because she might not be a part of the
pantheon that they recognise. But, I think I might speak for many
British Odinists in saying that there is a special and heartfelt link
to Ostara that borders on the personal and the ecstatic.
I cannot conceive of Thor as anything other than a loving being. He
always was the god of the common man. It's the feeling that he is
like some kind of big brother, watching out for you. There is a
feeling of love about his wife, Sif.
Perhaps some don't get the same feelings as me, but there is great
love inherent in the beings of many of our gods. Perhaps it is there
with all, but maybe more apparent or readily accessible in some more
than others.
Baird Stafford
<snip>
> You favour renting us a room in the pagan ghetto? (If we don't make too
> much noise).
Dunno about Ravan, but I certainly favor renting you a room in the Pagan
ghetto until you can get your own place set up - or until the meowers
get tired of ara and go play somewhere else as has been their pattern
over the years.
Blessed be,
Baird
noting that potential votes for sra do exist on srp when y'all get a
Charter you can agree on....
Grimnir
RedWolf <md...@shore.net> wrote in message
news:8RqU3.110$AT.2...@news.shore.net...
> Greetings Dirk,
>
> Asatru is a religion with a full range of emotions and love is one of
those
> emotions. It has its place at the table just like all the others do.
>
>
> Mike
>
> >
> >
> > RedWolf wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Love is about doing, not talking.
> >
> > > I do not agree with this. It is a part of us that should be discussed
> more.
> >
> > Maybe, but I don't see Asatru as a religion of 'love'.
> > I don't expect Odin to love me, nor any of the other Gods. As for
> > whether I love them, I think that they may find it irrelevent. Odin, for
> > example, would prize loyalty above love IMHO. However, I must admit to
> > being uncertain about the other Gods.
> >
> > Within the community of Asatruar, then comradeship definately, love
> > possibly.
> >
> > Dirk
> >
>
>
Mike,
I am Folkish. You know that. You have been loyal and steadfast. I count
you as folk. I don't know where the future will take this way of belief,
but you are welcome to share it with me. You are welcome to disagree with
my Folkism, and ask that I not think of you this way. I hope you will
accept my view of the way of the Gods. I will respect yours when we differ.
Steve
Flaagg
<art...@kbnet.co.uk> says...
>Asatru is not a religion of love, as Xianity purports to be.
"purports"? "X"ianity? You can't even type the word, Dirk...I thought
you said only Americans spout knee-jerk anti-Christian stuff on
Usenet.
--
Aaron M. Henne -mhm 9x2-
http://www.navicom.net/~flaagg
RedWolf
Greg Shetler <she...@home.com> wrote in message
news:382275EF...@home.com...
>
> I think the key is that we are not commanded to "love our neighbor as we
> love ourselves". Rather, by example, we are taught to love our kin, but
> with a tough enough heart to recognize wrong-doing and try to correct
> it.
I like this, I really do!!!!!
>
> That is, "tough-love" to Kin, rather than "universal love" to all.
I have never accepted the "universal love" idea, but I like to give
individuals the benefit of doubt. I believe we should be more open, but not
so open minded or maybe blinded that we do not take action when we should.
Love is something that happens with you eyes wide open and you see
everything as it is.