They WHAT?
Talesin
Mastiphal wrote in message ...
|> According to the wonderful Rev Franklin Graham, the tragedy of
Littleton
|> never would have happened if prayer had not been outlawed and gawd
was
|> allowed in the class room. They are calling this girl a "martyr for
|> god."
|> Watch out, this is going to turn into a Witch hunt.
|>
|> --
|> Talesin- Priest and Witch
|>
|> AIM name: Tales1n
|
|Going to? It already has. Look at what has been happening with the
|news. They may not blame wiccans or pagans, but they are blaming
|"goths". It's as much of a witch hunt as anything else.
Unfortunately,
|it's not just christians that do this sort of thing. It's a human
trait.
|
|I've recently heard through the "grape-vine" that The Witches Voice web
|site has been preparing a statement about their seperation from "goths"
|and the gothic community. And it makes me sad to hear it. I don't
|recall hearing anyone say they were going to publicly disown single
|mothers because that Susan whats her name killed her 2 children.
|
|
Are you telling me that the Witches Voice, long know for their stance
that the only "true" Witches and Pagans are Wiccans, is actually going
to speak out against Goths? Un believable! They are merely trying to
separate themselves from Goths so their image will not be spoiled. I am
tired of fuckers like this being so sacred of giving "xians" a bad
impression that they will disown parts of our community. They have done
this to Satanists, Traditional Witches, Asatru, and now it looks like
Goths are next on their list.
Time to stand up folks. Time to let them know how much we think this
sucks. That URL is www.witchvox.com
What really sickens me is how everyone with an agenda from Franklin
Graham to the anti-gun lobbies to the media have turned the deaths of
these poor children into a grand stand event to push their own agendas.
--
Talesin- Priest and Witch
AIM name: Tales1n
Dr. Plastik and Delila
>
> Are you telling me that the Witches Voice, long know for their stance
> that the only "true" Witches and Pagans are Wiccans, is actually going
> to speak out against Goths? Un believable! They are merely trying to
> separate themselves from Goths so their image will not be spoiled. I am
> tired of fuckers like this being so sacred of giving "xians" a bad
> impression that they will disown parts of our community. They have done
> this to Satanists, Traditional Witches, Asatru, and now it looks like
> Goths are next on their list.
> Time to stand up folks. Time to let them know how much we think this
> sucks. That URL is www.witchvox.com
> What really sickens me is how everyone with an agenda from Franklin
> Graham to the anti-gun lobbies to the media have turned the deaths of
> these poor children into a grand stand event to push their own agendas.
> --
> Talesin- Priest and Witch
How right you are! I'm sick and tired of certain groups claiming theirs
is the "only" *true* whatever.
I didn't know the witches voice had that stance against traditional
witches, but IMO it's just as silly
as certain satanic organisations saying they and only they are true
Satanists and the rest are fake.
Maybe I'll pay them a visit and tell them how I feel.
Delila
Thrshamer
It is indeed disgusting to see grandstanders turn a tragedy into a
billboard for their cause.
Besides, eveyone knows that if that school was Asatru, this wouldn't have
happened.. (::::::::::Ducking thrown lutefisk::::::)
c.c.sb...@51.killspam.us.com
> How right you are! I'm sick and tired of certain groups claiming theirs
> is the "only" *true* whatever.
> I didn't know the witches voice had that stance against traditional
> witches, but IMO it's just as silly
> as certain satanic organisations saying they and only they are true
> Satanists and the rest are fake.
> Maybe I'll pay them a visit and tell them how I feel.
Be sure you read the site first. Talesin is well known for distorting and
misrepresenting the views of others for his purposes.
At one time, WitchVox was very "wiccacentric", but some of us non-wiccans
have said, "Hey, don't set yourselves up as the only true pagans".
Ravan
--
Ravan Asteris rasteris / at \ rahul / dot \ net
(squish "/ and \" to make symbols like "&")
http://www.rahul.net/rasteris/
Ngilcach
enrage folk. He is a button-pusher.
The Rev. Graham's interview was with Larry King and in it he was remarkable
neutral regarding religion.
The Witches' Voice does not speak out against any Pagan organization that puts
Right and light at its forefront.
In Service ...
Yngona Tyrsvardh
S. M. Hewitt
wrote:
>After taking a look at the headers on this posting, I wonder why Alt.religion.asatru is
>included? As far as I'm concerned, we have absolutely nothing in common with wicca, goddess,
>witchcraft, evl or satanism.
>Include us out, please.
>
...include me with Lavrans....
-- Steve
http://www.n-link.com/~smhewitt
****************************************
Hail the Ęsir and the Vanir, who are are kin!
Hail our warriors and our scholars!
Hail all honest men, everywhere!
*****************************************
L. M.
Rorik
I was hoping somebody else would say this--I've certainly been thinking it.
What the Hel do we care if the Wiccans are are getting themselves worked up
over something? This thread has *NOTHING* to do with Asatru.
regards,
rorik
Talesin
L. M. wrote in message <3728DFBF...@earthlink.net>...
|After taking a look at the headers on this posting, I wonder why
Alt.religion.asatru is
|included? As far as I'm concerned, we have absolutely nothing in common
with wicca, goddess,
|witchcraft, evl or satanism.
|Include us out, please.
|
|
|
|
|
When were YOU appointed to speak for everyone? Don't like the thread,
don't read it.
Talesin
talking about. If people don't believe like you then they have no right
to be Pagan.
--
Talesin- Priest and Witch
AIM name: Tales1n
c.c.sb...@51.killspam.us.com wrote in message
<7gacek$f62$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
Talesin
Rorik
You may not have noticed, but there are *lots* of brain-dead "pagan" lists
that love to have people post juvenile drivel about nothing in particular.
You would feel at home on any one of them. Please go play among your own
species.
Thank you for your consideration,
rorik
Ivar Wiljonsen
crusades like
pentagram bans in schools and fighting for Goth & Wiccan rights ect.
What good would it do us anyway?
Our strength and unity is fighting for our folk and our rights FIRST. We
must keep a vigil isolationist policy and not get involved with ever
nonAsatruar yutz that knocks on the doors of our halls with some crazy
scheme.
Hail the high Aesir and the holy Vanir!
- Ivar Wiljonsen
Ismaî cor sa tsaol. Nî neart go cur le chéile.
Claîon neart ceart. Déanann seîbh såsamh.
Ivar Wiljonsen
come in here and call people dumbasses?
Who do you think you are?
This is not a moderated NG, but most of us here have agreed to a certain
code of netiquette and name calling is a NO NO.
Obviously that Wiccan Rede of yours doesn't teach you much netiquette.
Ravenreape
>Graham to the anti-gun lobbies to the media have turned the deaths of
>these poor children into a grand stand event to push their own agendas.
>Talesin- Priest and Witch
>
>AIM name: Tales1n
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
This is one statement that reflects how I feel exactly.
Ngilcach
like
pentagram bans in schools and fighting for Goth & Wiccan rights ect.>>
<<What good would it do us anyway?>>
Heathen) are religious freedoms. Something we all should be concerned with.
<<Our strength and unity is fighting for our folk and our rights FIRST.>>
** As a warrior I can say that when it comes to a fight there is strength in
numbers.
<<We must keep a vigil isolationist policy and not get involved with ever
nonAsatruar yutz that knocks on the doors of our halls with some crazy
scheme.>>
** I for one refuse to live in a vacuum. Let me see ... shootings and
bombings at abortion clinics are non-AsaTru; as are environmental concerns, our
presidents ever increasing impetus to spread thin our armed forces while
engaged in police actions; gun control, etc.
Think local, act global, be Tru.
S. M. Hewitt
wrote:
>
>L. M. wrote in message <3728DFBF...@earthlink.net>...
>|After taking a look at the headers on this posting, I wonder why
>Alt.religion.asatru is
>|included? As far as I'm concerned, we have absolutely nothing in common
>with wicca, goddess,
>|witchcraft, evl or satanism.
>|Include us out, please.
>|
>
>When were YOU appointed to speak for everyone? Don't like the thread,
>don't read it.
>
...as it just so happened he said what other people were
thinking...and I agree with him. Can't live with that?
This sort of an attitude is sowing just the sort of division you speak
against.
deeps...@my-dejanews.com
In article <3729940...@news.n-link.com>,
smhe...@n-link.com (S. M. Hewitt) wrote:
> >|Include us out, please.
> >
> >When were YOU appointed to speak for everyone? Don't like the thread,
> >don't read it.
> >
>
> ...as it just so happened he said what other people were
> thinking...and I agree with him. Can't live with that?
Though I'd like to see the "They WHAT" thread dry out on alt.religion.asatru
myself, I really do think Talesin has a point -
*oh asatru folk, don't read stupid threads!*
(I only read myself it because I saw so many good posters' names popping up on
what I would otherwise consider thoroughly worthless babbliny and --- egads,
now MY name is on the thread too!!!!).
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Rorik
>Ivar wrote <<We Asatru Do Not want to get involved in petty New Age
crusades
>like
>pentagram bans in schools and fighting for Goth & Wiccan rights ect.>>
>and
><<What good would it do us anyway?>>
>** That pentagram could well be a hammer.
I'm glad to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Ivar on this one. *IF* that
pentagram were a hammer we should be concerned. But it's not a hammer, it's
nonsense.
>Pagan rights (to include Wiccan and Heathen) are religious freedoms.
Something we all should be concerned with.
I disagree again. We have no reason to be concerned with teenage girls
sqautting around a candle whispering mumbo-jumbo and giggling. Being told
to break it up and do the dishes is not an infringement on their "religious
freedoms."
><<Our strength and unity is fighting for our folk and our rights FIRST.>>
>** As a warrior I can say that when it comes to a fight there is strength
in
>numbers.
Depends on numbers of *what.* You don't strengthen your position by making
indiscriminate alliances with every ditz you meet in the occult book shop.
>** I for one refuse to live in a vacuum. Let me see ... shootings and
>bombings at abortion clinics are non-AsaTru; as are environmental concerns,
our
>presidents ever increasing impetus to spread thin our armed forces while
>engaged in police actions; gun control, etc.
Good for you. I hope you will post your concerns about abortion to an
abortion ng, your concerns about the environment to an environmental ng,
your concerns about the president and foreign policy to one of the infinite
number of political ngs, etc. That's not what we subscribe to a.r.a for.
regards,
rorik
Talesin
Laura Wilson wrote in message <7gbce4$f8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>...
|
|Talesin <Witc...@psynet.net> wrote in message
|news:EdZV2.288$I11....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
|>
|> Mastiphal wrote in message ...
|> |> According to the wonderful Rev Franklin Graham, the tragedy of
|> Littleton
|> |> never would have happened if prayer had not been outlawed and gawd
|> was
|> |> allowed in the class room. They are calling this girl a "martyr
for
|> |> god."
|> |> Watch out, this is going to turn into a Witch hunt.
|> |>
|> |> Talesin- Priest and Witch
|> |>
|> |> AIM name: Tales1n
|> |
|> |news. They may not blame wiccans or pagans, but they are blaming
|> |"goths". It's as much of a witch hunt as anything else.
|> Unfortunately,
|> |it's not just christians that do this sort of thing. It's a human
|> trait.
|> |
|> |I've recently heard through the "grape-vine" that The Witches Voice
web
|> |site has been preparing a statement about their seperation from
"goths"
|> |and the gothic community. And it makes me sad to hear it. I don't
|> |recall hearing anyone say they were going to publicly disown single
|> |mothers because that Susan whats her name killed her 2 children.
|> |
|> |
|>
|> that the only "true" Witches and Pagans are Wiccans, is actually
going
|> to speak out against Goths? Un believable! They are merely trying to
|> separate themselves from Goths so their image will not be spoiled. I
am
|> tired of fuckers like this being so sacred of giving "xians" a bad
|> impression that they will disown parts of our community. They have
done
|> this to Satanists, Traditional Witches, Asatru, and now it looks like
|> Goths are next on their list.
|> Time to stand up folks. Time to let them know how much we think this
|> sucks. That URL is www.witchvox.com
|> Graham to the anti-gun lobbies to the media have turned the deaths of
|> these poor children into a grand stand event to push their own
agendas.
|> --
|> Talesin- Priest and Witch
|>
|> AIM name: Tales1n
|>
other
|links at The Witche's Voice for almost three years now (usually weekly,
|except during festival time) and *nothing* I've read there has ever
given me
|the impression that Wicca was the "one true way." In fact, many of the
|alerts and Wren's Nest articles have been about religious persecution
and
|supression of other groups, be they Satanist, Wiccan, Trad-fam, Asatru,
or
|from one of the so-called "mainstream religions."
|
|Fritz and Wren *have* said, like many others in the Pagan community
that
|Witches are not "Satan worshippers," but the intended audience for such
|comments (Christians) equates the term with Satan as described in the
KJV
|Bible, i.e., the "evil advesary/antithesis" of their god. (*You* try
|arguing the fine points of theology with any group which insists on
naming
|their god "God." You'd have as much luck convincing a toddler who has
just
|learned the word "dog" that the four-legged, furry pet she *insists* on
|calling "dog" is actually a cat!) For myself, I consider Satanists
members
|of the magickal community of which I am also a part and, if I could get
the
|average Ridlin-deprived Christian to sit still for five minutes after
just
|hearing the word "Satanist," I would tell them that.
|
Well guess what Miss Fluffy, somw WItches ARE Satan worshippers, some
drink blood, and I imagine a few out there even fuck goats. WHoa re you
or Witchvox to set the standard?
|As for "disowning" the Asatru, what can I say about the worth of that
|statement except to point out that several posters from
alt.religion.asatru
|have already voiced their opinion that this thread doesn't even concern
|their community and to leave them out of it (which I have by not
copying
|this post to them). And, for the record, I have no problem with
Asatru;
|some of my fondest childhood memories are of reading myths of the Aesir
and
|the Frost Giants. What I *do* have a problem with is the use of Asatru
by
|pathetic little neo-nazis to help spread their racial and cultural
|prejudices, or a few kids going out to the woods late at night,
|torturing/killing dogs and cats, and calling themselves Satanists,
Witches,
|etc. *Those* are the people I don't want to be associated with in any
way,
|shape or form.
This is not about YOU (typical Wiccan egocentrisim). You may think as
you wish but you may determine what others are allowed t think and read.
I can see why you on so well with Wiccianity.
You better go back and check out the definition they endorsed for the
meaning of the word "Pagan"- the one that was sent to all the major
publishers. Basically, by the time it sets the standards for Pagans it
leaves out everyone but Wiccans. will attempt to find the original post
in Deja News.
As much as you think they need you protection, Asatru do have a part in
this as they have a part in our community (despite the efforts of
Witchvox) so they are now back in.
Hnikar
he doesn't think the thread is of interest to the people who frequent
this newsgroup, and wonders why it is being cross-posted here. He has a
good point.
Hnikar
AOR/AFA/Raven Kindred (Asatru Alliance)
Hni...@dock.net or Cr...@webtv.net
Hnikar's Folkish Asatru Page:
http://www.geocities.com/~Hnikar (including Odin's Nation News)
Talesin
|statement except to point out that several posters from
alt.religion.asatru
|have already voiced their opinion that this thread doesn't even concern
|their community and to leave them out of it (which I have by not
copying
|this post to them). And, for the record, I have no problem with
Asatru;
|some of my fondest childhood memories are of reading myths of the Aesir
and
|the Frost Giants. What I *do* have a problem with is the use of Asatru
by
|pathetic little neo-nazis to help spread their racial and cultural
|prejudices, or a few kids going out to the woods late at night,
|torturing/killing dogs and cats, and calling themselves Satanists,
Witches,
|etc. *Those* are the people I don't want to be associated with in any
way,
|shape or form.
|
|
|Amalthea
|-- who knows that her mundane name is what appears in the sender
column, but
|doesn't believe that hiding her identity is the point of a magickal
name,
|anyway.
|
|
|
Here ya go. Please note definition and who the signatories are:
Pagan Leaders Send Definitions to Dictionary Editors (from 1997)
Leaders of some of the best-known Pagan organizations in the US sent a
letter
to six major dictionary publishers in December, urging the adoption of
new
definitions for Neo-Paganism and Witchcraft. Accompanying the letter
was a
resource packet including etymologies, estimates of the number of Pagans
in the
US, historical documents from the movement's early days, and extensive
documentation of the use of Pagan and related terms in all media.
The recommended definitions were created through cooperative effort via
e-mail.
The recommended definition for Neo-Paganism is: Collection of diverse
contemporary religions rooted in indigenous traditions or deriving
inspiration
therefrom, characterized by a belief in the interconnection of all life,
personal autonomy, and immanent divinities. Often nature-centered and
supportive of gender equity.
The recommended definition for Witchcraft is: A Neo-Pagan religion,
loosely
organized in autonomous traditions, honoring masculine and/or feminine
divinities and practicing magic and folk traditions for benevolent ends,
such
as healing, and the mystical development of the self; ***wicca***.
The effort, coordinated by the Pagan Educational Network, was supported
by the
Aquarian Tabernacle Church, Elizabeth Barrette, the Brideswell
Collective, the
Celtic Traditionalist Order of Druids, Church of All Worlds, Circle
Sanctuary,
Covenant of the Goddess, the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans,
Ellen
Evert Hopman, Holy Order of Mother Earth, Howling Wolf Coven, Janes
Tidings,
Ozark Avalon, Reclaiming, The Summerlands, The Third Road, Unhewn Stone
Press,
United Pagan Ministries, Wiccan Community Fund, The Wicked Word, Witches
League
for Public Awareness, ****The Witches Voice****, and WyrdWeavers
Collective.
Shez
>> |
>>
>> Are you telling me that the Witches Voice, long know for their stance
>> that the only "true" Witches and Pagans are Wiccans, is actually going
>> to speak out against Goths? Un believable! They are merely trying to
>> separate themselves from Goths so their image will not be spoiled. I am
>> tired of fuckers like this being so sacred of giving "xians" a bad
>> impression that they will disown parts of our community. They have done
>> this to Satanists, Traditional Witches, Asatru, and now it looks like
>> Goths are next on their list.
>> Time to stand up folks. Time to let them know how much we think this
>> sucks. That URL is www.witchvox.com
>> What really sickens me is how everyone with an agenda from Franklin
>> Graham to the anti-gun lobbies to the media have turned the deaths of
>> these poor children into a grand stand event to push their own agendas.
>> --
>> Talesin- Priest and Witch
>
>is the "only" *true* whatever.
> I didn't know the witches voice had that stance against traditional
>witches, but IMO it's just as silly
> as certain satanic organisations saying they and only they are true
>Satanists and the rest are fake.
> Maybe I'll pay them a visit and tell them how I feel.
>
>
Delila check first to make sure that Talesin is telling the truth, he
has a bad reputation for lying to suite his own ends, no doubt he would
like every pagan here hitting the witches voice, but I would want to be
an awful lot more sure, I don't take talesins word for anything.
Don't just react to something you have heard on the ng.
as far as I know the witches voice doesn't have any problem with
traditional witches. so I would start to ask about the rest.
--
Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
Greg Shetler
Ivar Wiljonsen wrote:
>
> I concure! We Asatru Do Not want to get involved in petty New Age
> crusades like
> pentagram bans in schools and fighting for Goth & Wiccan rights ect.
Um, Ivar - their rights are our rights. I fight for my rights, whether
it is myself that is being violated, or another.
If you think that anybody who would ban pentagrams won't be just as
happy to ban valknuts or Thor's hammers, you're living in a different
world than am I.
Violations of human rights are an offense to us all. At the same time,
I don't want to see a newsgroup dedicated to things essentially Asatru
to devolve into a subsidiary forum for others' religious debates.
Talesin, and some others, live to stir up strife and dissention. They
have very little else in their lives to point to and say, "see, I had an
affect. I *do* exist." Ignore them, and they turn to stone.
Dux
Greg Shetler
Rorik wrote:
>
> >Pagan rights (to include Wiccan and Heathen) are religious freedoms.
> Something we all should be concerned with.
>
> I disagree again. We have no reason to be concerned with teenage girls
> sqautting around a candle whispering mumbo-jumbo and giggling. Being told
> to break it up and do the dishes is not an infringement on their "religious
> freedoms."
As you well know, that is not the reference of the previous post. The
reference is to banning the wearing of pentagrams (non-Christian holy
symbols) in schools.
> >** As a warrior I can say that when it comes to a fight there is strength
> in
> >numbers.
>
> Depends on numbers of *what.* You don't strengthen your position by making
> indiscriminate alliances with every ditz you meet in the occult book shop.
I am sure you are well aware that this is also not what the previous
poster was refering to.
>
> >** I for one refuse to live in a vacuum. Let me see ... shootings and
> >bombings at abortion clinics are non-AsaTru; as are environmental concerns,
> our
> >presidents ever increasing impetus to spread thin our armed forces while
> >engaged in police actions; gun control, etc.
>
> Good for you. I hope you will post your concerns about abortion to an
> abortion ng, your concerns about the environment to an environmental ng,
> your concerns about the president and foreign policy to one of the infinite
> number of political ngs, etc. That's not what we subscribe to a.r.a for.
And she doesn't advocate posting them in a.r.a. She *does* say that
life issues affect us all, and that pretending that they don't affect us
because they aren't Asatru is ridiculous. Discussion of Asatru
viewpoints on life issues is very germaine to the purpose of this
newsgroup, as Asatru is a part of our lives.
Dux
Rorik
>
>Rorik wrote:
>>
>> >Pagan rights (to include Wiccan and Heathen) are religious freedoms.
>> Something we all should be concerned with.
>>
>> I disagree again. We have no reason to be concerned with teenage girls
>> sqautting around a candle whispering mumbo-jumbo and giggling. Being
told
>> to break it up and do the dishes is not an infringement on their
"religious
>> freedoms."
>
>As you well know, that is not the reference of the previous post. The
>reference is to banning the wearing of pentagrams (non-Christian holy
>symbols) in schools.
You seem to have missed the point yet again, so allow me to spell it out for
you. It is a source of acute embarrassment to me that airheaded
fluffbunnies like those who began this thread believe they have *anything*
in common with Asatruar. The only thing more embarrassing is Asatruar like
you who feel the same way.
regards,
rorik
Nate Perry
>
> In article <JNEW2.627$Ny1....@newsfeed.slurp.net>, Talesin
> <Witc...@psynet.net> writes
> >
> >Shez wrote in message <4cHTvRCb...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>...
>
> You talesin, it seems you have been trying to cause a lot of problems
> based on nothing, I checked out that web site, your were as usual
> letting your imagination run away with your mouth
From someone who is neither a Wiccan nor a Pagan, I checked out that
site and saw nothing similar to his statements either. If I had, it
wouldn't have been the first time I've been irritated by a Wiccan page,
but I saw nothing like what he described.
Shez
>AIM name: Tales1n
Shez
>"Talesin" <Witc...@psynet.net> wrote:
>>>these poor children into a grand stand event to push their own agendas.
>
>applauding the violence itself--they just don't approve of it being
>aimed at these particular people.
>
>Blaming all this on too little Christianity just floors me--every clip
>I've seen of the kids is littered with crosses everywhere and now
>they'd have us believe these kids were being kept from worshipping
>Christ in school?
but the argument can easily be turned around are the Christians saying
that because god was not worshiped in School, that he sent a couple of
boys with guns and bombs to destroy the school, for its lack of
Christian worship......? that he would kill children for not worshiping
him if that's true who wants a God like that.
its a stupid argument. and the people using it are not thinking
straight, its almost a threat, if you don't worship our god, he will
send evil teenagers to kill your children,
Now that rings a bell, want it originally Angels and Egyptians....? :)
Mark Holmes
information as "the grapevine" - isn't that the least accurate method
of determining fact? Anyone that jumped on the 'opportunity' to email
and flame WVOX should take a step back and ask themselves if they really
have enough information to go on, or if they just got riled up just the
way that many people like to do to others. One person posts their
grapevine story, which may or may not have basis in fact; then others
further the story with panic, and after a few days a lot of people
look like complete idiots.
I read the original post, and saw the source as "the grapevine" - and
pushed it to the back of my mind to wait for evidence. That grapevine
tells a lot of stories. WVOX making a public separation from Goths
just doesn't make sense to me. Sorry, I need more factual information.
Like so many others who responded, I found no mention of any
'separation' on the website. Unless we have definitive proof, like a
public statement or a webpage URL on WVOX's site, I strongly feel that
this thread should end now, lessons learned.
I also find it curious that this thread started out as being posted to:
alt.religion.wicca, alt.pagan, alt.religion.goddess, alt.witchcraft,
alt.evil, alt.religion.asatru, and alt.satanism - why in the hell would
Satanists
or Asatru (or even the readers of alt.evil) CARE about this topic in
the first place?
S. M. Hewitt
wrote:
>but the argument can easily be turned around are the Christians saying
>that because god was not worshiped in School, that he sent a couple of
>boys with guns and bombs to destroy the school, for its lack of
>Christian worship......? that he would kill children for not worshiping
>him if that's true who wants a God like that.
>its a stupid argument. and the people using it are not thinking
>straight, its almost a threat, if you don't worship our god, he will
>send evil teenagers to kill your children,
>Now that rings a bell, want it originally Angels and Egyptians....? :)
>--
>Shez
..."this is a stupid argument". That is the statement with which most
stupid replies start.
I have read many of the statements that others here have read, that it
wasn't the availablity of guns, or violent "learn how to murder"
videos, or sensationalist film, or that sort of shit that got Eric and
Kyle to go bugfuck in school, but that it was because they couldn't
pray in school.
*And*, we should probably give credit to our christian brothers for
believing as strongly in their worldview as we do in ours...even if
many of them believe that they have some patent on the truth.
What *has* been raised, and by some of the same people, most certainly
is true: religion is an anchoring factor in a person's life, and it
is exiled from public discourse at our peril.
Let's stop reacting to the christians and listen to what they mean, if
not to what they say verbatim.
And, in the wake of one damned incident, let's not all join the
wailing chorus of "Woe is America!". This incident is being used to
prove preconceived notions on the left (gun control, more central
control of society), on the right (more control over the film and
broadcast entertainment industry, prayer in schools)...and right here
(that christians suck).
It's positively ghoulish.
Shez
link.com> writes
>On Sun, 2 May 1999 01:53:10 +0100, Shez <sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>but the argument can easily be turned around are the Christians saying
>>that because god was not worshiped in School, that he sent a couple of
>>boys with guns and bombs to destroy the school, for its lack of
>>Christian worship......? that he would kill children for not worshiping
>>him if that's true who wants a God like that.
>>its a stupid argument. and the people using it are not thinking
>>straight, its almost a threat, if you don't worship our god, he will
>>send evil teenagers to kill your children,
>>Now that rings a bell, want it originally Angels and Egyptians....? :)
>>--
>>Shez
>
>..."this is a stupid argument". That is the statement with which most
>stupid replies start.
>
>I have read many of the statements that others here have read, that it
>wasn't the availablity of guns, or violent "learn how to murder"
>videos, or sensationalist film, or that sort of shit that got Eric and
>Kyle to go bugfuck in school, but that it was because they couldn't
>pray in school.
And is that the answer, no of course it isn't, which is why it can so
easily be turned around, the opposite way.
>
>*And*, we should probably give credit to our christian brothers for
>believing as strongly in their worldview as we do in ours...even if
>many of them believe that they have some patent on the truth.
I don't care what people believe, that is their spiritual choice, I do
care however when a bunch of fanatics decide to tell the whole world
this would not have happened if the school had prayers and religious
teaching, Christian of course.
>
>What *has* been raised, and by some of the same people, most certainly
>is true: religion is an anchoring factor in a person's life, and it
>is exiled from public discourse at our peril.
Rubbish religion doesn't belong in schools, except as theology and that
means all religions, should be discussed. not just one, that is where
the problems start, when children are brainwashed into religion, and it
doesn't matter what the religion is.
their should be a separation of church and state what person in his
right mind wants to force people back into religion like it or not, and
to force children into praying, and worshiping some god or other,
In my own school many years ago, their were quite a few Jews, and
several JWs and they still had to stand their and listen to the prayers,
even when their parents objected.
we all giggled and laughed, so did everyone else, you cant force
children to believe as you believe you have to allow them to find their
own spiritual way, and that means allowing them to understand and
appreciate the many religions of the world.
In most schools today their will be an even bigger percentage of none
Christians, Why should they be pushed out, because the religious nuts
want more prayer and worship in schools, that's what churches, temples
and homes are for
Many parents don't want their children indoctrinated into religion in
schools. , they would rather teach them themselves.
>
>Let's stop reacting to the christians and listen to what they mean, if
>not to what they say verbatim.
I know a lot of great Christians, who say live and let live, but then
you have the fanatics who have to make everyone believe , act and do as
they do, we as a world could well do without them, they over the
centuries have caused untold harm. and they were not all Christians,
fanatics in any religion cause trouble.
Spiritually believing in any God should be a personal choice, not a
brainwashing technique.
>
>And, in the wake of one damned incident, let's not all join the
>wailing chorus of "Woe is America!". This incident is being used to
>prove preconceived notions on the left (gun control, more central
>control of society), on the right (more control over the film and
>broadcast entertainment industry, prayer in schools)...and right here
>(that christians suck).
Christians as a whole don't suck, only the fundamentalist idiots who
want to force their religion, their morality, their dogma, and their way
of life on everyone. now that is ghoulish.
I am not saying Woe is America, I am British. not American please note
Uk in addy.
>
>It's positively ghoulish.
Life is positively ghoulish, and people always discuss such things, it
would be stupid to think they don't, People are fascinated by tragedy,
and pretending they are not is ignoring the obvious.
Fanatics are in every religion, I was talking about a Christian Fundi
who said that if the schools still said prayers, and had god as part of
its teaching this sort of thing would not have happened,
The idea obviously is stupid, and it can easily be turned around to look
like god was in fact punishing the school for not saying prayers and
worshiping him.
I don't believe that worship or prayer in school would make a dam bit of
difference, most of us older posters probably went to school and were in
morning assembly when such prayers were normal, it was just a good time
to plot mischief or sing the wrong words,
Take a look at what you have written are you relay advocating religion
be taught in schools, and forced prayer meetings assembly's that even
the teachers don't want, should again be mandatory. and it doesn't
matter what the religion is, its still wrong, it would be just as wrong
if it were pagan.
>
>-- Steve
>
>http://www.n-link.com/~smhewitt
>
>****************************************
>
>Hail the Ęsir and the Vanir, who are are kin!
>Hail our warriors and our scholars!
>Hail all honest men, everywhere!
>
>*****************************************
--
Shez
writes
>> >
snip
>> >|>> Goths are next on their list.
>> >|>> Time to stand up folks. Time to let them know how much we think this
>> >|>> sucks. That URL is www.witchvox.com
>> >|>> What really sickens me is how everyone with an agenda from Franklin
>> >|>> Graham to the anti-gun lobbies to the media have turned the deaths
>> >of
>> >agendas.
>> >|>> Talesin- Priest and Witch
>> >|>
>> >|> How right you are! I'm sick and tired of certain groups claiming
>> >theirs
>> >|>is the "only" *true* whatever.
>> >|> I didn't know the witches voice had that stance against traditional
>> >|>witches, but IMO it's just as silly
>> >|> as certain satanic organisations saying they and only they are true
>> >|>Satanists and the rest are fake.
>> >|> Maybe I'll pay them a visit and tell them how I feel.
>> >|>
>> >|> Delila
>> >|>
>> >|
>> >|Delila check first to make sure that Talesin is telling the truth, he
>> >|has a bad reputation for lying to suite his own ends, no doubt he would
>> >|like every pagan here hitting the witches voice, but I would want to be
>> >|an awful lot more sure, I don't take talesins word for anything.
>> >|
>> >|Don't just react to something you have heard on the ng.
>> >|as far as I know the witches voice doesn't have any problem with
>> >|traditional witches. so I would start to ask about the rest.
>> >|
>> >|Shez sh...@oldcity.demon.co.uk
>> >|The 'Old Craft' lady http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/shez/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> You talesin, it seems you have been trying to cause a lot of problems
>> based on nothing, I checked out that web site, your were as usual
>> letting your imagination run away with your mouth
>
>site and saw nothing similar to his statements either. If I had, it
>wouldn't have been the first time I've been irritated by a Wiccan page,
>but I saw nothing like what he described.
>
Talesin is well know for his imagination, and his lying, he really
doesn't understand what factual or true means, which is why I warned the
poster to check first,
I don't think I was the only one to put out such a warning
Talesin is well known for trying to cause trouble, he loves to start a
fight and then sit back and watch it escalate, if he had been believed
then the witches voice might well have been swamped by irate Wiccans and
pagans. fortunately most pagans and Wiccans have the sense to check for
themselves.
Talesin
c.c.sb...@51.killspam.us.com wrote in message
<7gj035$r05$1...@samba.rahul.net>...
|Organization: a2i network
|Distribution:
|X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
|
|In article <1ntW2.1935$bV5....@news7.ispnews.com>, Rorik
(ro...@yolo.com) wrote:
|
|> But I have no reason not to show what little respect I have for
"other
|> pagans," since I do not in fact respect them. And the word is
"spoiled."
|
|Rorik, you an arrogant prick, and an uninformed idiot to boot.
|
|1) not all witches are Wiccans, thank you. That is as bad as saying
all
|"heathens" are white supremacists.
You got this one right.
|2) Asatruar are pagan, but not Wiccan. However, thay are not "neo-"
pagan,
|since the Asatru beliefs and practices survived in a few pockets.
Are they? What makes them Pagan? Most definitions (including the
Witchvox one) say "Earth based" and they are not that. If you say they
just because they are not xians, I know a lot of Jews that would
disagree with you.
|3) When the fundies come around with the "convert or die" routine, they
won't
|care if it's a pentacle or a Thor's hammer around the person's neck.
I disagree. Just say "Witch" to any uninformed (read:xianized) person
and they will think of Devil worship and human sacrfice and kids being
thrown into ovens. Everyone (especially school admins) think the
Pentacle is a sign of Satan.
If you say "I am an Asatruar" most people would say "What?" My
girlfriend has a tattoo of a Thor's Hammer on her leg ansd some idiots
have even asked her if it is an airplane. I think Asatru are safe.
Ironic since Asatru is the trad founded on battle and conquering
enemies.
|
| RavEn
--
Talesin- Priest and Witch
AIM name: Tales1n
Greg Shetler
Rorik wrote:
>
> >As you well know, that is not the reference of the previous post. The
> >reference is to banning the wearing of pentagrams (non-Christian holy
> >symbols) in schools.
>
> You seem to have missed the point yet again, so allow me to spell it out for
> you. It is a source of acute embarrassment to me that airheaded
> fluffbunnies like those who began this thread believe they have *anything*
> in common with Asatruar. The only thing more embarrassing is Asatruar like
> you who feel the same way.
As usual, you ascribe motivations and emotions to me which I do not
have.
The only way in which I feel that non-Asatruar have anything in common
with Asatruar is that they are also human beings who have the same
rights.
Your embarassment at their continual insistence that their religion is a
"superset" of ours does not in any way invalidate any of the rights they
have, as human beings. If you choose not to defend their rights, that
is your prerogative.
But choosing not to defend their rights is not the same as saying that
they don't have those rights, just because they are embarassing in their
refusal to understand the difference between your religion and theirs.
Dux
Martha Hughes
>
> Rorik wrote:
> >
> > >As you well know, that is not the reference of the previous post. The
> > >reference is to banning the wearing of pentagrams (non-Christian holy
> > >symbols) in schools.
> >
> > You seem to have missed the point yet again, so allow me to spell it out for
> > you. It is a source of acute embarrassment to me that airheaded
> > fluffbunnies like those who began this thread believe they have *anything*
> > in common with Asatruar. The only thing more embarrassing is Asatruar like
> > you who feel the same way.
>
> As usual, you ascribe motivations and emotions to me which I do not
> have.
>
> The only way in which I feel that non-Asatruar have anything in common
> with Asatruar is that they are also human beings who have the same
> rights.
I quite agree. I am not religious myself, although I do believe in many
of the credes of Asatru, as I also agree with much of the philosophy of
Satanism. The only way people will be able to maintain a relative level
of freedom is to not give up their rights. By telling a kid not to wear
a specific type of jewelry is just as bad as outlawing trenchcoats. As
soon as they banned them, I wanted one.
Steelfoot
>Shez wrote in message ...
Somesuch -
I could care less - it is a simple tragedy for all of us.
A tradgedy which is likely to grow...
Steelfoot
Laura Wilson
>
> Laura Wilson wrote in message <7gbce4$f8$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net>...
> |
> |Talesin <Witc...@psynet.net> wrote in message
> |news:EdZV2.288$I11....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> |>
> |> Mastiphal wrote in message ...
<Previous posts snipped for brevity.>
This doesn't sound like it's leaving anyone out to me. How about the rest
of you folks on this thread? What exactly are you objecting to here,
Talesin?
> The recommended definition for Witchcraft is: A Neo-Pagan religion,
> loosely
> organized in autonomous traditions, honoring masculine and/or feminine
> divinities and practicing magic and folk traditions for benevolent ends,
> such
> as healing, and the mystical development of the self; ***wicca***.
Duh, Talesin, but I believe that the semi-colon here denotes Wicca as one of
several definitions of Witchcraft and not the *only* one (else, why would
Druids have signed off on this? *They're* not Wiccan.)
> The effort, coordinated by the Pagan Educational Network, was supported
> by the
> Aquarian Tabernacle Church, Elizabeth Barrette, the Brideswell
> Collective, the
> Celtic Traditionalist Order of Druids, Church of All Worlds, Circle
> Sanctuary,
> Covenant of the Goddess, the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans,
> Ellen
> Evert Hopman, Holy Order of Mother Earth, Howling Wolf Coven, Janes
> Tidings,
> Ozark Avalon, Reclaiming, The Summerlands, The Third Road, Unhewn Stone
> Press,
> United Pagan Ministries, Wiccan Community Fund, The Wicked Word, Witches
> League
> for Public Awareness, ****The Witches Voice****, and WyrdWeavers
> Collective.
Oh, my! The Witches Voice supported this! Ergo, it *must* be part of the
Wiccan Plot to Take over the World! (WICCA: Wiccans In Control of Churches
Anywhere!) Yeah, like we're organized enough to do that! Jeez.
BB,
Amalthea
Robert S. Gau
Let's erase the previous messages as we write new ones.
As I read these long responses, I get confused as to what is new and what's
old.
And from past experience, I know I am not alone.
Again, I am just trying to make things better.
If the vote of everyone is against me, I don't care and I won't mention it
again.
OK!!!!!!
This witch thing. Without trying to be totally insulting, most witches I
have even been in a room with are.......well.........spacey?
No...........um.........morons.
Sorry. Before you jump all over that, I am prepared to except that maybe I
live in a Wiccan-deprived area and I certainly know that Wicca is valid and
that many if not most Wiccans are great, sincere people and not morons.
However, I think we can go ahead and ass u me that these latter mention ones
are morons. So let's kill them.
Just kidding. No, I agree with what the 2nd post said, let's let them know
that we are angry about it.
ROB
Caedric
person here <though I am not done with the messages> who has some spark of
intellegence. Merrily Met, good fellow.
--
Caedric Al'Rassan
cae...@teleport.com
ICQ#:36864142
Robert S. Gau
Do you know who this Rhyannon chic is?
She was totally rude to me for no reason.
Talesin
--
Talesin- Priest and Witch
PLEASE! Don't drink and park. Accidents cause people.
AIM: Tales1n
Robert S. Gau wrote in message <7hsb5h$3kt$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
Rorik
regards,
rorik
Robert S. Gau
Damn!
Rorik wrote in message ...
c.c.sb...@51.killspam.us.com
Distribution:
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
In article <Mzp03.217$jb....@newsfeed.slurp.net>, Talesin (Witc...@psynet.net) wrote:
> That's who she is. And we love her.
You would. The mirror approaches, Tales.
Ravan
> Robert S. Gau wrote in message <7hsb5h$3kt$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
> |Well met,
> |
> |Do you know who this Rhyannon chic is?
> |She was totally rude to me for no reason.
> |
> |
> |
--
Ravan Asteris rasteris / at \ rahul / dot \ net
(squish "/ and \" to make symbols like "&")
http://www.rahul.net/rasteris/
Ivar Wiljonsen
should invite her back to scare taliesin off. Hehehehe
Hail the high Aesir and the holy Vanir!
-Ivar Wiljonsen
"Old soldiers never die; They just fade away." - General Douglas
MacArthur
dirtybird...
something worth flaming??...
jeepers.... she musta been bored that night then.... *G*...
ya know... you should consider doing something better than what you actually
did... give her a purpose at least... she just wasted her talents on you...
jeeecsshh
OOOO X OOO to rhyannon... hee hee...
Care
Robert S. Gau <gun...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7hsb5h$3kt$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
Robert S. Gau
dirtybird... wrote in message ...