New e-list: Huggy Heathens
Ingeborg S. Nordén
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/huggyheathens
For Heathens who prefer the softer, friendlier side of Asatru to the
warrior-wannabe, "blood and vengeance" mentality. Cyberhugs, happy news from
fellow Heathens, and light inspirational stories in a Germanic pagan vein
are all welcome here. (Discussing personal problems is OK too, but prepare
to get a lot of "awwww...*HUG*" responses when you ask for support and
advice!) As long as you keep the language polite and clean, most messages
are acceptable here. Unfortunately, having to announce the list policy isn't
as light-hearted or cuddly as the messages I hope to see here...so I've
included it in a separate file to send to new members. Gods Bless and HUGS!
----
Ingeborg S. Nordén
(rune...@chorus.net)
Ek Ingwibergo stabaz fahišo
bowman
> Huggy Heathens
Say it ain't so, Joe. Say there ain't really an alt.cuddle that I'm
cross-posting to. Hug at your own risk -- watch out for the spear!
Scott Lowther
>
> Huggy Heathens
>
> http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/huggyheathens
>
> For Heathens who prefer the softer, friendlier side of Asatru to the
> warrior-wannabe, "blood and vengeance" mentality. Cyberhugs, happy news from
> fellow Heathens, and light inspirational stories in a Germanic pagan vein
> are all welcome here. (Discussing personal problems is OK too, but prepare
> to get a lot of "awwww...*HUG*" responses when you ask for support and
> advice!) As long as you keep the language polite and clean, most messages
> are acceptable here.
Urp. That's just about the most hurl-inducing thing I've read since
someone put the words "President" and "Al Gore" together...
--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
"Any statement by Edward Wright that starts with 'You seem to think
that...' is wrong. Always. It's a law of Usenet, like Godwin's."
- Jorge R. Frank, 11 Nov 2002
Heidi Graw
>"bowman" <bow...@montana.com> wrote in message
news:aqv3ss$dirl1$1...@ID-159066.news.dfncis.de...
>> Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
>
> > Huggy Heathens
> bowman wrote:
> Say it ain't so, Joe. Say there ain't really an alt.cuddle that I'm
> cross-posting to. Hug at your own risk -- watch out for the spear!
You call that a spear? LOL..... ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>"Ingeborg S. Nordén" <rune...@chorus.net> wrote in message
news:2UDA9.11578$Hs2.1...@kent.svc.tds.net...
> Huggy Heathens
>
>
> http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/huggyheathens
>
> For Heathens who prefer the softer, friendlier side of Asatru
Awe, Ingeborg....BIG HUGS! Cuddle, cuddle...
I just gave hubby a hug before I sent him off to bed. The boys, too, are
down for the night. FINALLY my quiet time! Now I can settle down to answer
some of the posts which have been accumulating throughout the day. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>"Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3DD320...@ix.netcom.com...
(snip)
>
> Urp. That's just about the most hurl-inducing thing I've read since
> someone put the words "President" and "Al Gore" together...
Ah, yer jest jealous 'cause no-one in their right mind would hug you!!!
Heidi
Dirk Schmitt
"Ingeborg S. Nordén" <rune...@chorus.net> wrote in message
news:2UDA9.11578$Hs2.1...@kent.svc.tds.net...
Hugs is fine... can we just ensure that huggy does not equate to fluffy ;)
Thanks
Ulfrikr - Huggy but NOT Fluffy by any stretch of the imagination.
AET
Picko
> someone put the words "President" and "Al Gore" together...
One hurl-inducing president's only as good as another hurl-inducing
president...
Picko
Scott Lowther
Some are worse. Commie rat bags are especially bad, and commie rat bags
who pretend to sensitivity and hugginess, as the afore mentioned human
log did, are vastly worse.
bowman
> You call that a spear? LOL..... ;-)
Well, it was a spear before Siegfried took a whack at it with Nothung :)
Doug Freyburger
> Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
>
> > Huggy Heathens
>
Based on Ingeborg's track record of keeping folks in line with the Lore, I
feel confident of it. She's been a rock on that for many years.
Doug Freyburger
> Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
>
>
> Urp. That's just about the most hurl-inducing thing I've read since
> someone put the words "President" and "Al Gore" together...
So says the manly heathen male who somehow never found a manly heathen female
for a wife, chuckle. Heathenry has been male dominated and lopsided for too
many years. There are as many goddesses as gods, folks. There should be as
many heathen does as heathen bucks, if only so we can raise the next
generation as something other than people who go to church with their mothers
and wonder what the heck dad does when he takes his drinking horn to those
meetings.
Heathenry needs to deliver that type of value. Heathenry has value for a
lot of men. Adventure tales for boys. Warrior shtick for the physical men who
are still growing up emotionally. Responsibility lessons for the fathers.
Varied options to judge the value of your life and chances of afterlife in the
for elderly men.
What value does heathenry offer to women? Equality to men in a male context.
Sure we offer that but how many women want that particular value? What do we
have to offer the girls, adventure tales. How many girls want that? What do
we have to offer to young women while they're still single, warrior shtick.
How many young single women want that? Asatru doesn't have obvious feminine
value that I know about until motherhood, and that's far to late for many
women.
If Ingeborg is to build up the house of heathenry, I am happy to see her do
it by making heathenry more hospitable to women and if you go to any web
discussion site that is intended to be soft and supportive, they are filled
with women. Clearly women like that sort of stuff more than men do.
I *know* Asatru offers as much feminine value as it does masculine value, but
I am *positive* I'm clueless to dredge feminine value from the Lore, from UPG,
from women's group activities. If I tried to do all this stuff I'd end up
with something sincere but clueless and hence worthless.
Hail the Goddesses!
Doug Freyburger
Heidi Graw
>"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.02111...@posting.google.com...
> Dirk Schmitt wrote:
> > Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
> >
> > > Huggy Heathens
> >
> > Hugs is fine... can we just ensure that huggy does not equate to fluffy
> Doug wrote:
> Based on Ingeborg's track record of keeping folks in line with the Lore, I
> feel confident of it. She's been a rock on that for many years.
I've had a few telephone conversations with Ingeborg. She's a kind and
affectionate person, but she is also very strong and determined. Mess with
her and you're in for it! ;-) I really like Ingeborg and I'm glad we've
established a frienship...and yes, we give each other cyber and telephone
hugs! I hope one day to meet her and be able to give her a real hug. I
also appreciate her willingness to act as "keeper of the lore" and clear up
things that I'm confused or unsure of. Imo, she is a much valued
contributor to Asatru. Thank you, Ingeborg, for being who you are and doing
what you do!!!! ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Picko
> > > someone put the words "President" and "Al Gore" together...
> > > Scott Lowther, Engineer
> >
> > One hurl-inducing president's only as good as another hurl-inducing
> > president...
>
> Some are worse. Commie rat bags are especially bad, and commie rat bags
> who pretend to sensitivity and hugginess, as the afore mentioned human
> log did, are vastly worse.
>
Gosh, what an anachronism. Haven't heard that quaint phrase "Commie" for a
quite a few years. I thought it died out with those other quaint old
attributes : jingoism, xenophobia, paranoia and nazism. Apparently not. What
an amazing coincidence to find such an example inhabiting a Germanic faith
newsgroup. I'm sure your fellow Asatrans salute you as a shining example.
Picko
Ingeborg S. Nordén
Greetings, everyone!
I am hardly a Communist as some members of this forum accused me of being,
nor am I a "Wiccatru fluffbunny" as others have accused me of being in the
past. I am simply a Heathen who believes that there IS a legitimate place
in Asatru for sensitivity, hugs, and non-violent feelings/activities.
(Those things shouldn't dominate the religion, of course--but they shouldn't
be swept under the rug either!)
Too many female friends who hear that I am Asatru immediately think: "Why
would a woman--and especially a kind, caring woman like you--follow a
patriarchal religion full of war gods?" The patriarchy I wouldn't deny
(it's all over the lore); the war-gods part is true only up to a point.
Remember Baldr being loved by all the gods and by most other beings in the
Nine Worlds too? Remember the two versions of Freyr--one willing to give up
his sword for Gerd, and the other praised by the Swedes as a bringer of
peace and prosperity? Remember Freyja weeping and wandering all over
Midgard, looking for the husband she lost through her own foolishness? The
lore does have stories centered on something other than violence, vengeance
and destruction...which means that those other things have a place in our
lives as Heathens too!
Even flesh-and-blood Norsemen did do things besides pillage, burn, kill, and
get drunk at feasts afterwards. Remember Hrafnkel's saga, with Thorbjorn
having to explain why his son needs to move away: "It's not that I don't
love you; I've just gotten so poor that supporting you is hard"? Remember
Egil's saga, with the bloodthirsty berserker *and* his daughter crying over
a relative's death? (Even a big, tough warrior needs a hug sometimes, it
would seem...<g>) Remember the Volsunga saga, with Gudrun so choked up over
Sigurd's death that she couldn't cry?
Based on those bits of lore, it appears that older Germanic culture truly
did have a friendly, soft side which modern Heathens overlook or disparage.
It's in the spirit of that overlooked lore that I created the Huggy Heathens
list--not to "fluff up" ALL Heathen experiences, nor to further any kind of
political cause.
BelieveNoOne
war and killings... But at the same time he also had a huge aversion to war and
killing...
-Grimner-
"Ingeborg S. Nordén" wrote:
> Ek Ingwibergo stabaz fahiðo
--
ÐÏ à¡± á
Scott Lowther
>
> > > > Urp. That's just about the most hurl-inducing thing I've read since
> > > > someone put the words "President" and "Al Gore" together...
> > > > Scott Lowther, Engineer
> > >
> > > One hurl-inducing president's only as good as another hurl-inducing
> > > president...
> >
> > Some are worse. Commie rat bags are especially bad, and commie rat bags
> > who pretend to sensitivity and hugginess, as the afore mentioned human
> > log did, are vastly worse.
> >
> > Scott Lowther, Engineer
>
> Gosh, what an anachronism. Haven't heard that quaint phrase "Commie" for a
> quite a few years.
Yeah, it's rare, but as they're still around, the phrase still pops up.
I thought it died out with those other quaint old
> attributes : jingoism, xenophobia, paranoia and nazism. Apparently not.
Godwin! I win!
What
> an amazing coincidence to find such an example inhabiting a Germanic faith
> newsgroup.
Ah. So I take it that all people of Germanic faith are supposed to be
leftists? How odd!
Brian Gislason
My 33rd great grandfather had the nickname of Hairy Breaches. Due to the
face that his wife made him pants out of skins. I guess that gave him a bit
of the warm fuzzies. He was also a great heathen and a good leader. He
killed all the way to his death in an English snake pit. Wich I am guessing
didn't give him the warm fuzzies.
I am guessing that he wouldn't mind anyone that was part of a Huggy Heathens
group as long as they met alot. You know big meetings that take a good part
of the day. That makes it easier to plunder while everyones away. Heck, if
its a pleasant day he might even take a little spare time to lock everyone
in their meeting place and light her up. Hey it worked with the xtians.
Brian
"BelieveNoOne" <Pan...@Attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DD39DF1...@Attbi.com...
Ingeborg S. Nordén
OK, I've rewritten the list description so that I don't get mistaken for
either a fluffbunny or a Communist; how does this version sound?
========
For Heathens who believe that hugs, love, friendship, and compassionate
support are an important part of their religion; who know that the Eddas and
sagas teach more than just vengeance, destruction and "warrior ideals". If
you want to share cyberhugs, good news, funny Heathen-themed stories, or
kind words and support for a friend's personal problems--this is the place
for you. As long as you keep the language polite and clean, most messages
are acceptable here. Keep in mind, though, that a few things AREN'T
"huggy"--racism, sexism, sermons meant to de-convert people from Asatru, and
insults against specific people or their religions. Gods Bless and HUGS!
========
Dirk Schmitt
"Picko" <an...@p1ck0.eatyourspam.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ar1dki$ei2$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
What is more astonishing, is the desire to paint Asafolk as all of the same
ideological thought pattern... kindly show your proof positive for this
attribute thanks. Shall we have a look at facts here, the word Commie,
short for Communist, is not an anachronism... Communism still exists within
the world, certainly not to the degree it once did, but it hasn't completely
died, and as an ideology, there are certainly enough folk around who
idealise the Communist manifesto to consider them to be Communists, ergo...
Commies. By the way, it might come as an interesting co-incidence to find
the same quaint old attributes being bandied about on many religious
newsboards and groups which have nothing to do with Germanic faith. And
what is perhaps most interesting is that you desire to paint us all the
same, regardless of who we are as individuals, and if that is not
jingoistic, xenophobic, and paranoid, then I don't know what is...
Ulfrikr
AET
www.aetaustralia.org
Dirk Schmitt
"Ingeborg S. Nordén" <rune...@chorus.net> wrote in message
news:Pd0B9.11890$Hs2.1...@kent.svc.tds.net...
Much better Ingeborg, albeit I still cringe at the concept of Cyberhugs ;)
The good news, funny stories, and kind words is a great concept.
Ulfrikr
AET
www.aetaustralia.org
Aemon
<rune...@chorus.net> wrote:
>Huggy Heathens
>
>
>http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/huggyheathens
>
>For Heathens who prefer the softer, friendlier side of Asatru to the
>warrior-wannabe,
What of those who really are warriors?
Bless
Nik
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Picko wrote:
>>
>> > Urp. That's just about the most hurl-inducing thing I've read since
>> > someone put the words "President" and "Al Gore" together...
>> > Scott Lowther, Engineer
>>
>> One hurl-inducing president's only as good as another hurl-inducing
>> president...
>
>Some are worse. Commie rat bags are especially bad, and commie rat bags
>who pretend to sensitivity and hugginess, as the afore mentioned human
>log did, are vastly worse.
I do hope that you're not trying to suggest that the USA has EVER had
any sort of Communist President, or are you?
Nik
Picko
> > attributes : jingoism, xenophobia, paranoia and nazism. Apparently not.
>
> Godwin! I win!
No, you don't. You'd do a lot to get there if you bothered to make any
sense.
> What
> > an amazing coincidence to find such an example inhabiting a Germanic
faith
> > newsgroup.
>
> Ah. So I take it that all people of Germanic faith are supposed to be
> leftists? How odd!
And I take it the definition of 'Huggy Heathenism' includes fascism does it?
Even more odd. Got a pair of furry jack-boots have we? Heil!
Picko
Ingeborg S. Nordén
"Aemon" <repub...@email.com> wrote in message
news:eae9tusdfoi6kb5lg...@4ax.com...
people's lives aren't wannabes, of course; my old description of the group
isn't meant to put down the real thing, although it is still going to
emphasize the non-warrior aspects of the religion.
By "warrior wannabe" I mean ultra-macho men who have never gotten into a
fight more serious than SCA combat practice, but still fancy themselves
warriors and/or Vikings. I also mean those who obsess over the violent
aspects of Asatru--pretending that Norsemen never did anything but raid,
destroy, wench and get drunk. Not every Heathen has that obsession, true;
but those who do have it are unfortunately vocal and give the religion a bad
name to outsiders.
--
Ingeborg S. Nordén
> And I take it the definition of 'Huggy Heathenism' includes fascism does
it?
> Even more odd. Got a pair of furry jack-boots have we? Heil!
> Picko
"Ve haff vays of making you schnuggle"...you're not the first one to come up
with imagery along those lines. *LOL* In all seriousness, though: I am
neither a Communist, a fascist, a Nazi, a xenophobe, nor any of the other
nasty things people have taken to calling each other here. My politics may
be slightly left of center, but I don't force them on anybody--and I don't
go around claiming that right-wingers are the root of all evil, either.
As for my stance on racism and foreigners: most regulars here can do a
Google search to learn that I think Hitler was a power-mad nithling, and
that I consider his ideology pure evil which has no legitimate place in
Asatru. I have repeatedly argued *against* metagenetics or belief in a folk
soul--let alone the existence of a superior race. (A search will show those
old messages too, so I won't waste bandwidth quoting them here.)
"Jingoism" hardly describes my attitudes either. First, I generally oppose
war except as a last resort. Second, I am not ultra-patriotic: if anything,
I often feel that I'm in the *wrong* country. I would indeed emigrate from
here to Sweden permanently, if my health and finances allowed.
Finally--the fact that I decided to start an e-list about friendly,
non-violent aspects of the Asatru religion should not have led anyone to
conclude anything about my political or racial stance. My wording in the
old description may have been too "fluffy", but that does not make me a
stereotypical fluffbunny. It makes me a Heathen who'd rather snuggle up and
share a horn with a good friend, than get into a brawl. It makes me a
Heathen who draws more inspiration from Freyr's *sacrificing* a weapon for
love, than from Odin's *wielding* one in the name of fear and hate. The
lore does mention both, yes...but not everyone values the same parts of
Germanic culture for the same reasons. Understood?
--
Aemon
>Picko
Not I.
Nik
Dirk Bruere
In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should be
free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to need
not money.
FFF
Dirk
bowman
>
> In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should be
> free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to
> need not money.
Yeah, but 'Commie rat bag' sounds like a bit of rhetoric from a YAF rally,
circa 1965. Except for the North Korean Nutcase, even the commies have
freshened up their style.
Dirk Bruere
"bowman" <bow...@montana.com> wrote in message
news:ar330r$eqe1i$1...@ID-159066.news.dfncis.de...
Something about China the West will never admit - that is, the Commies have
actually turned into National Socialists.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me of any differences between the modern
Chinese political system and that of Nazi Germany (apart from the Chinese
one running more efficiently).
FFF
Dirk
Scott Lowther
>
> > I thought it died out with those other quaint old
> > > attributes : jingoism, xenophobia, paranoia and nazism. Apparently not.
> >
> > Godwin! I win!
>
> No, you don't.
Yes, I do, by definition of Godwin's Law.
> > What
> > > an amazing coincidence to find such an example inhabiting a Germanic
> faith
> > > newsgroup.
> >
> > Ah. So I take it that all people of Germanic faith are supposed to be
> > leftists? How odd!
>
> And I take it the definition of 'Huggy Heathenism' includes fascism does it?
Where did your deluded mind dream THAT up from?
Scott Lowther
> In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should be
> free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to need
> not money.
Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
Dirk Bruere
"Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3DD51A...@ix.netcom.com...
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
> > In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should
be
> > free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to
need
> > not money.
>
> Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
> actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
> take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
> I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh? Even though we
vote for such a system.
Guess we're just more Commies...
FFF
Dirk
Doug Freyburger
> Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
>
> >warrior-wannabe,
>
> What of those who really are warriors?
Plenty of support already in place from several groups. You could run
a mailing list for them if you like to supply another.
There are warriors in Asatru. Some currently serving in the military.
Some who didn't stop being warriors just because they took an honorable
discharge and grew their hair out.
There are also wannabe warriors in Asatru. Ranging from "I went on a
vision quest and now I'm a Crystal Warrior" through the more common chest
thumpers.
We also have non-warriors. Just because you enlisted doesn't mean you're
a warrior.
Doug Freyburger
>
> I am guessing that he wouldn't mind anyone that was part of a Huggy Heathens
> group as long as they met alot. You know big meetings that take a good part
> of the day. That makes it easier to plunder while everyones away. Heck, if
> its a pleasant day he might even take a little spare time to lock everyone
> in their meeting place and light her up. Hey it worked with the xtians.
You're young and single. You'll fit in fine on ARA. The young part will take
care of itself. Expect a lot of the single part until you get over your big
bad viking warrior wannabe phase.
Barry T Dallmann
> >
> > > I thought it died out with those other quaint old
> > > > attributes : jingoism, xenophobia, paranoia and nazism. Apparently
not.
> > >
> > > Godwin! I win!
> >
> > No, you don't.
>
> Yes, I do, by definition of Godwin's Law.
No, you don't. IF Godwin's Law applied, all it says is that the other guy
loses, not that you win. There can always be the result of "no winner" in a
conflict. Of course, I don't believe that Godwin's Law applies in this
case, and rarely on this thread, as Nazi"ism" is, unfortunately, a relevant
topic.
Dirk Bruere
"Barry T Dallmann" <btdal...@rrt.net> wrote in message
news:UBbB9.97$Sh3....@news.uswest.net...
FFF
Dirk
Rorik
> Gosh, what an anachronism. Haven't heard that quaint phrase "Commie" for a
> quite a few years.
You obviously haven't spent much time around an American university
lately.
>I thought it died out with those other quaint old
> attributes : jingoism, xenophobia, paranoia and nazism.
If you seriously believe only Nazis are aware of the existence of the
contemporary radical Left, you've simply taken yourself out of the
realm of relevance.
> What an amazing coincidence to find such an example inhabiting a Germanic
> faith newsgroup.
Why a coincidence? Example of what? Perhaps if you calmed down and
cleared your head before posting, you might be able to express
yourself more clearly.
>I'm sure your fellow Asatrans salute you as a shining example.
I have certainly never heard anyone speak ill of him. (Other than the
occasional looney who sees Nazis under every bed, that is.)
regards,
rorik
Brian Gislason
Thanks for the reply, its always good to hear from people in the group. I by
the way am a bit older although I don't think I am to old. I am going to be
36 in a few days. I have two gread kids and an incredible wife. I do have to
admit that I do love stories of the Vikings.
Have a great one!
Brian
"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.02111...@posting.google.com...
Raab
"Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com>
> Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
> actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
> take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
> I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
No.. what you are defining is a communistic police state, not a true
communistic state.
Raab
We always just call them soldiers.
Scott Lowther
>
> "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3DD51A...@ix.netcom.com...
> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >
> > > In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should
> be
> > > free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to
> need
> > > not money.
> >
> > Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
> > actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
> > take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
> > I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
>
> Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
Scott Lowther
What, there's a difference? What communist state wasn't/isn't a police
state?
Scott Lowther
>
> I am going to be 36 in a few days.
Ah, optimism.
Scott Lowther
> >I'm sure your fellow Asatrans salute you as a shining example.
>
> I have certainly never heard anyone speak ill of him. (Other than the
> occasional looney who sees Nazis under every bed, that is.)
Stick around long enough and you'll see people get all pissed off at me.
Hell, this thread is a good start. Heh, for a good laugh, go to Google
and waste a few hours reading soem of the arguements between Heidi and
m'self...
BelieveNoOne
Communistic Dream state, Since that kind of Communist nation has only existed
in the Idealistic mind of Karl Marx, and as he himself said, In many branches
of tribalism.
I think the historical verdict is out, that a Communist type of society can
exist successfully on A small Scale. But there is no way that something like
that can exist in an area the size of Russia without it becoming the police
state.
When you get that big, there is too much of a division in peoples thoughts,
about what the different groups want.
Thus, the two methods to ensure equality on a large scale Is democracy, or the
police state, or a combination of both.
-Grimner-
Raab wrote:
--
邢 唷��
Scott Lowther
> I think the historical verdict is out, that a Communist type of society can
> exist successfully on A small Scale.
Only sometimes. One of the dirty little secrets of american history is
that "Thanksgiving" wasn't the Pilgrims giving thanks for the Injuns
showing up and teaching them how to grow food, or for God giving them a
break on the winter... it was giving thanks for waking the hell up from
their prior communist utopia - which wasn't working. They were starving
until they decided to privatise, and then all of a sudden people started
worked better and smarter and harder.
Communism on a small scale? Only whne it's already culturally
ingrained,a dn there's little penetration of other notions into the
group.
But there is no way that something like
> that can exist in an area the size of Russia without it becoming the police
> state.
One other lesson of history: legal or otherwise, capitalism survives
everywhere. There is always a black market. Communism, on the other
hand, cannot survive as a subset of a capitalist society.
Heidi Graw
(snip)
>. Heh, for a good laugh, go to Google
> and waste a few hours reading soem of the arguements between Heidi and
> m'self...
You missed me that much, huh? Well, well..well...Didn't like the silent
treatment I gave you, eh?
Btw, as a note to lurkers: I put the man into my killfile for a few months
and I find he ends up perusing passed discussion! LOL. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Scott Lowther
>
> >"Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3DD5B8...@ix.netcom.com...
> (snip)
>
> >. Heh, for a good laugh, go to Google
> > and waste a few hours reading soem of the arguements between Heidi and
> > m'self...
>
> You missed me that much, huh?
No. I have no need to reread your racist, anti-American drivel. I simply
know that it is there, and that Google can dredge it up.
>Well, well..well...Didn't like the silent treatment I gave you, eh?
Actually, it was bliss.
> Btw, as a note to lurkers: I put the man into my killfile...
... and missed me so much you took me back out of the killfile. Feh.
Don't even have the courage of your convictions enough to be honest
abotu killfiling someone...
Heidi Graw
(snip)
> I *know* Asatru offers as much feminine value as it does masculine value,
Awesome post, Doug. Thank you! :-)
Take care,
Heidi
Dirk Bruere
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >
> > "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:3DD51A...@ix.netcom.com...
> > > Dirk Bruere wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare
should
> > be
> > > > free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according
to
> > need
> > > > not money.
> > >
> > > Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
> > > actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker
to
> > > take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not."
But
> > > I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
> >
> > Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
>
> Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
Same as the US I imagine, but without the guns.
FFF
Dirk
Heidi Graw
> Heidi Graw wrote:
> >
> > >"Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:3DD5B8...@ix.netcom.com...
> > (snip)
> > >. Heh, for a good laugh, go to Google
> > > and waste a few hours reading soem of the arguements between Heidi and
> > > m'self...
> > Heidi wrote:
> > You missed me that much, huh?
> Scott wrote:
> No. I have no need to reread your racist, anti-American drivel. I simply
> know that it is there, and that Google can dredge it up.
...and you spent *hours* going over our past discussions! Why?
> >Heidi wrote:
> >Well, well..well...Didn't like the silent treatment I gave you, eh?
> Scott wrote:
> Actually, it was bliss.
Ah, fess up...You missed arguing with me! You couldn't stand my not
replying to any of your miserable and hatefilled posts! It pissed you off
that I was ignoring you!!!
>
>>Heidi wrote:
> > Btw, as a note to lurkers: I put the man into my killfile...
> Scott wrote:
> ... and missed me so much you took me back out of the killfile. Feh.
Nope, I got a new computer and haven't bothered stuffing you back into my
killfile. Thought I'd see whether or not you changed your tune in any way.
But, I can see you have not!
> Don't even have the courage of your convictions enough to be honest
> abotu killfiling someone...
...ah...poor widdle Scottie....how many wings off flies have you torn off
while I was ignoring you? Ah, nevermind....back into the killfile you go...
[...PLOINK...]
Heidi
Scott Lowther
>
> >"Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3DD5F7...@ix.netcom.com...
> > Heidi Graw wrote:
> > >
> > > >"Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3DD5B8...@ix.netcom.com...
> > > (snip)
> > > >Scott wrote:
> > > >. Heh, for a good laugh, go to Google
> > > > and waste a few hours reading soem of the arguements between Heidi and
> > > > m'self...
>
> > > Heidi wrote:
> > > You missed me that much, huh?
>
> > Scott wrote:
> > No. I have no need to reread your racist, anti-American drivel. I simply
> > know that it is there, and that Google can dredge it up.
>
> ...and you spent *hours* going over our past discussions!
Originally, way back when. I've not looked at it since.
> > >Heidi wrote:
> > >Well, well..well...Didn't like the silent treatment I gave you, eh?
>
> > Scott wrote:
> > Actually, it was bliss.
>
> Ah, fess up...You missed arguing with me!
Hardly. I like a good arguement with a witty opponent. You, in
contrast...
Scott Lowther
> > > Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
> >
> > Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
>
> Same as the US I imagine, but without the guns.
You governemnt officials (cops and whatnot) don't have guns? Well, I
guess in a pussified, disarmed nation, they can enforce stealing your
money with billyclubs...
Dirk Bruere
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
> > > > Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
> > >
> > > Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
> >
> > Same as the US I imagine, but without the guns.
>
> You governemnt officials (cops and whatnot) don't have guns? Well, I
> guess in a pussified, disarmed nation, they can enforce stealing your
> money with billyclubs...
It is enforced by common agreement.
FFF
Dirk
Aemon
wrote:
>"bowman" <bow...@montana.com> wrote in message
>news:ar330r$eqe1i$1...@ID-159066.news.dfncis.de...
>> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> >
>> > In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should
>be
>> > free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to
>> > need not money.
>>
>> Yeah, but 'Commie rat bag' sounds like a bit of rhetoric from a YAF rally,
>> circa 1965. Except for the North Korean Nutcase, even the commies have
>> freshened up their style.
>
>Something about China the West will never admit - that is, the Commies have
>actually turned into National Socialists.
When I was last in China, I watched some of the state TV, it had
little kids singing a song with lyrics "One country, two systems la la
la" - political expediency of the most blatant kind. If a political
system is good for one part of the country why isn't it good for the
other part?
>Perhaps someone can enlighten me of any differences between the modern
>Chinese political system and that of Nazi Germany (apart from the Chinese
>one running more efficiently).
Their uniforms aren't as stylish?
Nik
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
>> In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should be
>> free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to need
>> not money.
>
>Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
>actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
>take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
>I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
The central 'secular' theme of the Sagas is, as I understand it, the
balance between individual freedoms and the constraints on those
freedoms imposed by the realities of living as a member of a community
in ancient Northern Europe. For instance, one was obliged to feed
travellers, Havamal, Outlawry was one of the worst non-execution type
penalties for crimes committed because it meant that no-one could
shelter you without themselves becoming outlaws and the consequences
of that in a Northern Winter are harsh enough...whilst there is and
was a resistance to paying Taxes to the central body, in the case of
health care to not pay your part towards the central state's health
care system is, to my mind, the equivalent to not feeding travellers
as mentioned in the Havamal.
I serve Odin, I pay my part of the national health care costs.
That, is not communism.
Bless
Nik
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Dirk Bruere wrote:
>>
>> "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:3DD51A...@ix.netcom.com...
>> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> >
>> > > In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should
>> be
>> > > free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to
>> need
>> > > not money.
>> >
>> > Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
>> > actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
>> > take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
>> > I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
>>
>> Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
>
>Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
One becomes an outlaw.
Nik
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Raab wrote:
>>
>> "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com>
>> > Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
>> > actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
>> > take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
>> > I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
>>
>> No.. what you are defining is a communistic police state, not a true
>> communistic state.
>
>What, there's a difference? What communist state wasn't/isn't a police
>state?
The Paris Commune, Chile in 1973 before Allende was executed by the
CIA, Nicaragua before the US funded the Contras
Nik
Aemon
wrote:
>Aemon wrote:
>> Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
>>
>> >For Heathens who prefer the softer, friendlier side of Asatru to the
>> >warrior-wannabe,
>>
>> What of those who really are warriors?
>
>Plenty of support already in place from several groups. You could run
>a mailing list for them if you like to supply another.
>
>There are warriors in Asatru. Some currently serving in the military.
>Some who didn't stop being warriors just because they took an honorable
>discharge and grew their hair out.
Have a look at this:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5346/me.html
>There are also wannabe warriors in Asatru. Ranging from "I went on a
>vision quest and now I'm a Crystal Warrior"
Sad days.
> through the more common chest thumpers.
>
>We also have non-warriors. Just because you enlisted doesn't mean you're
>a warrior.
Indeed, we still need cooks, drivers, electronics technicians,
teachers, farmers, law enforcers...
Bless
Nik
Aemon
wrote:
>Brian Gislason wrote:
>>
>> I am guessing that he wouldn't mind anyone that was part of a Huggy Heathens
>> group as long as they met alot. You know big meetings that take a good part
>> of the day. That makes it easier to plunder while everyones away. Heck, if
>> its a pleasant day he might even take a little spare time to lock everyone
>> in their meeting place and light her up. Hey it worked with the xtians.
>
>You're young and single. You'll fit in fine on ARA. The young part will take
>care of itself. Expect a lot of the single part until you get over your big
>bad viking warrior wannabe phase.
I don't know about that one. There are women out there who like 'big
Viking warrior wannabe's.
Not that I know...honestly...you must believe me ;)
Nik
Scott Lowther
Errr... that's a little surprising. Are anti-rape laws also "enforced by
common agreement?" Or do you have people whose job it is to hunt down
offenders and lock 'em away, using whatever force needed to do the job?
Or are you saying that all EUers are sufficiently brainwashed robots
that they ALL fork over their taxes without question, and the notion of
not paying taxes simply never occurs?
Aemon
<rune...@chorus.net> wrote:
>"Aemon" <repub...@email.com> wrote in message
>news:eae9tusdfoi6kb5lg...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:29:18 GMT, "Ingeborg S. Nordén"
>> <rune...@chorus.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Huggy Heathens
>> >
>> >
>> >http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/huggyheathens
>> >
>> >For Heathens who prefer the softer, friendlier side of Asatru to the
>> >warrior-wannabe,
>>
>> What of those who really are warriors?
>>
>Those who actually do serve in the military or otherwise fight to protect
>people's lives aren't wannabes, of course; my old description of the group
>isn't meant to put down the real thing, although it is still going to
>emphasize the non-warrior aspects of the religion.
>
>By "warrior wannabe" I mean ultra-macho men who have never gotten into a
>fight more serious than SCA combat practice, but still fancy themselves
>warriors and/or Vikings.
I know more than a few of these.
> I also mean those who obsess over the violent
>aspects of Asatru--pretending that Norsemen never did anything but raid,
>destroy, wench and get drunk. Not every Heathen has that obsession, true;
>but those who do have it are unfortunately vocal and give the religion a bad
>name to outsiders.
I concur.
Nik
bowman
>
> Their uniforms aren't as stylish?
For all their other shortcomings, the Nazis and the Catholics had a good
sense of theater. Given their general uselessness, at least politicians
could provide some decent entertainment. Other than inadvertantly tripping
over their pricks, that is.
Scott Lowther
> I serve Odin, I pay my part of the national health care costs.
>
> That, is not communism.
Yes, it is (socialism, anyway), when you do not have a say in how much
you pay and to what. Especially given that nationalized health care is
one of the elast efficient ways of goign about it... the best being: you
break your arm, YOU pay the doctor. The concept of personal
responsibility seems to be vanishing.
Aemon
<rune...@chorus.net> wrote:
>
>"Picko" <an...@p1ck0.eatyourspam.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ar2f3p$icc$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>> And I take it the definition of 'Huggy Heathenism' includes fascism does
>it?
>> Even more odd. Got a pair of furry jack-boots have we? Heil!
>> Picko
>
>
>"Ve haff vays of making you schnuggle"...you're not the first one to come up
>with imagery along those lines. *LOL* In all seriousness, though: I am
>neither a Communist, a fascist, a Nazi, a xenophobe, nor any of the other
>nasty things people have taken to calling each other here. My politics may
>be slightly left of center, but I don't force them on anybody--and I don't
>go around claiming that right-wingers are the root of all evil, either.
Aren't they?
>As for my stance on racism and foreigners: most regulars here can do a
>Google search to learn that I think Hitler was a power-mad nithling, and
>that I consider his ideology pure evil which has no legitimate place in
>Asatru.
Absolutely. I wish that we didn't even have to mention that ideology
even if its only to distance ourselves from it.
> I have repeatedly argued *against* metagenetics or belief in a folk
>soul--let alone the existence of a superior race. (A search will show those
>old messages too, so I won't waste bandwidth quoting them here.)
>
>"Jingoism" hardly describes my attitudes either. First, I generally oppose
>war except as a last resort. Second, I am not ultra-patriotic: if anything,
>I often feel that I'm in the *wrong* country. I would indeed emigrate from
>here to Sweden permanently, if my health and finances allowed.
I love Sweden, it is so beautiful. I've only been to Bohuslan but that
was really awesome.
>Finally--the fact that I decided to start an e-list about friendly,
>non-violent aspects of the Asatru religion should not have led anyone to
>conclude anything about my political or racial stance. My wording in the
>old description may have been too "fluffy", but that does not make me a
>stereotypical fluffbunny. It makes me a Heathen who'd rather snuggle up and
>share a horn with a good friend, than get into a brawl.
They have their places.
> It makes me a
>Heathen who draws more inspiration from Freyr's *sacrificing* a weapon for
>love,
Absolutely fair enough.
> than from Odin's *wielding* one in the name of fear and hate.
Fear and hate? I think not. Care to expand on that one?
> The lore does mention both, yes...but not everyone values the same parts of
>Germanic culture for the same reasons. Understood?
I understand. You did step on a few toes with your characterisation
but I do understand what you're getting at and I have to say, good on
you, we can do with the diversity within Asatru.
Bless
Nik
Scott Lowther
And in modern society, that means federal agents holding a gun to the
head of the outlaw and hauling him off to jail.
So, we're back to enforced nationalized health care = commie police
state.
BelieveNoOne
minority to kill? Oh yeah... i forgot they have falun gong, as well as the Dalai
Llama to worry about.
FREE TIBET, Dammit.
-Grimner-
Aemon wrote:
--
邢 唷��
Scott Lowther
> >What, there's a difference? What communist state wasn't/isn't a police
> >state?
>
> The Paris Commune
That was a state? or was it a small community within a larger,
non-communist community that protected it from reality?
bowman
>
> The central 'secular' theme of the Sagas is, as I understand it, the
> balance between individual freedoms and the constraints on those
> freedoms imposed by the realities of living as a member of a community
> in ancient Northern Europe.
Does anyone have a reference regarding the expected conduct at feasts?
Specifically, Saxo describes Gram killing off most of the guests and the
groom at a wedding feast without comment. My feeling is that would have
been very much outside of the mores of Saxo's society, but I can't find any
concrete citation.
Dirk Bruere
> Aemon wrote:
>
> > I serve Odin, I pay my part of the national health care costs.
> >
> > That, is not communism.
>
> Yes, it is (socialism, anyway), when you do not have a say in how much
> you pay and to what. Especially given that nationalized health care is
> one of the elast efficient ways of goign about it... the best being: you
The admin overheads in our healthcare system are about 2%.
In the private US system I understand they run at about 10%.
> break your arm, YOU pay the doctor. The concept of personal
> responsibility seems to be vanishing.
And if you are short of cash don't even think of expecting a family member
to help you out.
Or even give you a ride to hospital if you can't pay for the fuel and
vehicle depreciation.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
> On 15 Nov 2002 09:13:40 -0800, dfre...@yahoo.com (Doug Freyburger)
> wrote:
>
> >Aemon wrote:
> >> Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
> >>
> >> >For Heathens who prefer the softer, friendlier side of Asatru to the
> >> >warrior-wannabe,
> >>
> >> What of those who really are warriors?
> >
> >Plenty of support already in place from several groups. You could run
> >a mailing list for them if you like to supply another.
> >
> >There are warriors in Asatru. Some currently serving in the military.
> >Some who didn't stop being warriors just because they took an honorable
> >discharge and grew their hair out.
>
> Have a look at this:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5346/me.html
>
> >There are also wannabe warriors in Asatru. Ranging from "I went on a
> >vision quest and now I'm a Crystal Warrior"
>
> Sad days.
True.
Being a Crystal Warrior today isn't like it was in our time.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
> >
> > "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:3DD66F...@ix.netcom.com...
> > > Dirk Bruere wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
> > > > >
> > > > > Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
> > > >
> > > > Same as the US I imagine, but without the guns.
> > >
> > > You governemnt officials (cops and whatnot) don't have guns? Well, I
> > > guess in a pussified, disarmed nation, they can enforce stealing your
> > > money with billyclubs...
> >
> > It is enforced by common agreement.
>
> Errr... that's a little surprising. Are anti-rape laws also "enforced by
> common agreement?" Or do you have people whose job it is to hunt down
> offenders and lock 'em away, using whatever force needed to do the job?
Yes - by common agreement.
One is also expected to do ones civic duty by reporting such crime.
> Or are you saying that all EUers are sufficiently brainwashed robots
> that they ALL fork over their taxes without question, and the notion of
> not paying taxes simply never occurs?
Generally throughout Europe we see our taxes working in society.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
> > >> > > In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare
should
> > >> be
> > >> > > free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be
according to
> > >> need
> > >> > > not money.
> > >> >
> > >> > Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that
"free"
> > >> > actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a
worker to
> > >> > take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or
not." But
> > >> > I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
> > >>
> > >> Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
> > >
> > >Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
> >
> > One becomes an outlaw.
>
> And in modern society, that means federal agents holding a gun to the
> head of the outlaw and hauling him off to jail.
No, they just clean out your bank account.
So much more civilised in Europe.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
>
> > It makes me a
> >Heathen who draws more inspiration from Freyr's *sacrificing* a weapon
for
> >love,
>
> Absolutely fair enough.
>
> > than from Odin's *wielding* one in the name of fear and hate.
>
> Fear and hate? I think not. Care to expand on that one?
Quite possibly fear - and for good reason since he can see what's coming.
FFF
Dirk
BelieveNoOne
what it costs to go into the hospital for a while to get something major
done?
In that system, we suffer and die, or... we must sell the house or farm to
get treatment so we can feel better and buy the doc a new limo.
Im not exactly sure of the details, but in Heathen society, wouldnt a shaman
generally heal someone for something reasonable, such as being invited over
for dinner or being given a cow and a few chickens?
Whens the last time a doctor visit was affordable to the average joe without
insurance? or even for that matter... with insurance?
I would gladly pay taxes for free healthcare.
-Grimner-
Scott Lowther wrote:
--
邢 唷��
Rune Bjørnsen
>
>
> I don't know about that one. There are women out there who like 'big
> Viking warrior wannabe's.
>
> Not that I know...honestly...you must believe me ;)
>
> Nik
I actually have photographic evidence to prove this...
http://forn-sed.no/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album02&id=aam
Rune
Rune Bjørnsen
>
>
> Does anyone have a reference regarding the expected conduct at feasts?
> Specifically, Saxo describes Gram killing off most of the guests and the
> groom at a wedding feast without comment. My feeling is that would have
> been very much outside of the mores of Saxo's society, but I can't
> find any
> concrete citation.
>
Try Haavamal.
Rune
Rune Bjørnsen
> "Rune Bjørnsen" wrote in message
> news:EJxB9.260$oC3....@news01.chello.no...
> So who's the big girl with the long hair?
I don't know, you tell me ;-)
Rune
Dirk Bruere
"Rune Bjørnsen" <sop...@chello.no> wrote in message
news:EJxB9.260$oC3....@news01.chello.no...
> >
> >
> >
So who's the big girl with the long hair?
Dirk
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Aemon wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:11:31 -0800, Scott Lowther
>> <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:3DD51A...@ix.netcom.com...
>> >> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > In the US a 'commie' is defined as anyone who thinks healthcare should
>> >> be
>> >> > > free at the point of delivery and any rationing should be according to
>> >> need
>> >> > > not money.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, that's a decent definition... so long as you add that that "free"
>> >> > actually means "federal agents holding a gun to the head of a worker to
>> >> > take money from him to fund the program whether he likes it or not." But
>> >> > I guess that would make the definition a bit cumbersome...
>> >>
>> >> Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
>> >
>> >Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
>>
>> One becomes an outlaw.
>
>And in modern society, that means federal agents holding a gun to the
>head of the outlaw and hauling him off to jail.
>
>So, we're back to enforced nationalized health care = commie police
>state.
You've got a problem with living as part of a society with societal
needs. If one does not pay these costs via taxes someone somewhere
pays, people have to live.
Nik
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Aemon wrote:
>
>> I serve Odin, I pay my part of the national health care costs.
>>
>> That, is not communism.
>
>Yes, it is (socialism, anyway), when you do not have a say in how much
>you pay and to what. Especially given that nationalized health care is
>one of the elast efficient ways of goign about it.
Crap.
>.. the best being: you break your arm, YOU pay the doctor. The concept of personal
>responsibility seems to be vanishing.
Personal responsibilty is grand but when someone, say, drives their
car into you and then drive off, who should pay? If one happens to be
poor through no fault of your own:
48
The generous and bold have the best lives, Are seldom beset by cares,
But the base man sees bogies everywhereAnd the miser pines for
presents
It is not generous to refuse to pay one's part of the Healthcare
burden of the state.
61
Clean and fed shall he rid to the Ting, even though poorly clad
None need feel shame over patches on shoes nor over inferior mount.
75
He knows not who little knows that many are fools to others,
One may be rich another poor. No blam attaches to this.
With regards to the cental secular theme of the Sagas and the Havamal
being the maximisation of individual freedoms with the constrictions
that being part of a society implies, you, Scott Lowther, are out of
balance. You don't believe in the existence of the Gods and here you
are speaking against the statements of the Havamal and the Sagas, what
makes you think that you are Asatru again?
I don't think that you are.
Nik
You're out of balance,
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Aemon wrote:
>
>> I serve Odin, I pay my part of the national health care costs.
>>
>> That, is not communism.
>
>Yes, it is (socialism, anyway), when you do not have a say in how much
>you pay and to what. Especially given that nationalized health care is
>one of the elast efficient ways of goign about it... the best being: you
>break your arm, YOU pay the doctor. The concept of personal
>responsibility seems to be vanishing.
I hope that you fall foul of the uncaring attitude that you express
some stage and wakeup Scott.
Nik
Aemon
wrote:
Hahahaha. That was a very special day, Mid Sommer on Oslo Fjord 2002.
The first legally binding Heathen wedding in Norway since 1030 A.D.
Norway is beautiful and the people are nice.
Bless
Nik
Aemon
wrote:
>
Yeah, who's the big girl with the long hair and the beard? I'll kick
his arse.
Nik
Aemon
wrote:
>"Aemon" <repub...@email.com> wrote in message
Granted.
Nik
Doug Freyburger
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Just because you enlisted doesn't mean you're a warrior.
>
> We always just call them soldiers.
I was a supply clerk in the Navy. It would be insane to call me a warrior,
and I'll have none of that Crystal Warrior stuff for myself, having met actual
warriors. But it would also be unreasonable to call me a soldier even back
when I was in the Navy. Just because you enlisted doesn't mean you're a
soldier any more than it makes you a warrior.
It's interesting that Asatru has traditional patrons of soldiers and warriors.
Thor and his practical smith-like hammer getting up and defending the
farmstead against invaders is more of a soldier than a warrior in my view. Of
course his farmstead is all the worlds of Yggdrazil. Frey rising up with an
antler and fighting against invaders with it during Raganok is also a paton
for soldiers in my view.
Odin and Tyr, they have plenty of stress on people whose calling is war,
warriors who go out of their way to find the finding as opposed to soldiers
who go there because they've been ordered to.
Scott Lowther
>
> "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3DD698...@ix.netcom.com...
> > Dirk Bruere wrote:
> > >
> > > "Scott Lowther" <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3DD66F...@ix.netcom.com...
> > > > Dirk Bruere wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
> > > > >
> > > > > Same as the US I imagine, but without the guns.
> > > >
> > > > You governemnt officials (cops and whatnot) don't have guns? Well, I
> > > > guess in a pussified, disarmed nation, they can enforce stealing your
> > > > money with billyclubs...
> > >
> > > It is enforced by common agreement.
> >
> > Errr... that's a little surprising. Are anti-rape laws also "enforced by
> > common agreement?" Or do you have people whose job it is to hunt down
> > offenders and lock 'em away, using whatever force needed to do the job?
>
> Yes - by common agreement.
> One is also expected to do ones civic duty by reporting such crime.
So... when you report the crime, the criminals turn themselves over to
the courts?
> > Or are you saying that all EUers are sufficiently brainwashed robots
> > that they ALL fork over their taxes without question, and the notion of
> > not paying taxes simply never occurs?
>
> Generally throughout Europe we see our taxes working in society.
So, again, it comes down to the government taking your monety whether
you want them to or not. But it also coems down to a tacit admission
that all EUers really are drones, all thinking the same way. Creepy.
Scott Lowther
>
> Yet as much as we want to do that... Most often we simply cannot. Ever see
> what it costs to go into the hospital for a while to get something major
> done?
Yes. That's why nationalized healthcare is a disastrous notion...
medicine can solve - with enough effort and cash - damned near
anything... and people are expectign that service to be their right.
> In that system, we suffer and die, or...
Or get money from friends, family or charity organizations. And in none
of these cases is there an army of people ready to swoop down and arrest
people for not paying up.
we must sell the house or farm to
> get treatment so we can feel better
And if you don;t have any food, you'll have to either get a job or sell
stuff for the money to buy it. Or is Nationalized Food Care next?
> and buy the doc a new limo.
That's a separate matter. But in the Stateas, you're more likely
spending money to make sutre that the doctor's malpractice lawyers can
buy a new limo.
> Im not exactly sure of the details, but in Heathen society, wouldnt a shaman
> generally heal someone for something reasonable, such as being invited over
> for dinner or being given a cow and a few chickens?
Probably. And would that same shaman expend a large fraction of the
village's funds to treat EVERYTHING? And would the shaman go door to
door with the local brute squad to amke sure people pay up every year?
> Whens the last time a doctor visit was affordable to the average joe without
> insurance?
Well, now, lemme think... I had severe bronchitis about 2.5 years ago,
while enemployed and uninsured. I seemed to pull through, WITH
assistance from the medical establishement.
Some peopel seem to think that if you're poor and uninsured, that there
is no good health care to be had. That's bunk.
> I would gladly pay taxes for free healthcare.
That's nice. What about those people who wouldn't?
Dirk Bruere
> > > > > > > > Just like they hold guns to our heads in most of Europe eh?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Same as the US I imagine, but without the guns.
> > > > >
> > > > > You governemnt officials (cops and whatnot) don't have guns? Well,
I
> > > > > guess in a pussified, disarmed nation, they can enforce stealing
your
> > > > > money with billyclubs...
> > > >
> > > > It is enforced by common agreement.
> > >
> > > Errr... that's a little surprising. Are anti-rape laws also "enforced
by
> > > common agreement?" Or do you have people whose job it is to hunt down
> > > offenders and lock 'em away, using whatever force needed to do the
job?
> >
> > Yes - by common agreement.
> > One is also expected to do ones civic duty by reporting such crime.
>
> So... when you report the crime, the criminals turn themselves over to
> the courts?
Crimes should be reported and the witnesses should be willing to testify in
court.
> > > Or are you saying that all EUers are sufficiently brainwashed robots
> > > that they ALL fork over their taxes without question, and the notion
of
> > > not paying taxes simply never occurs?
> >
> > Generally throughout Europe we see our taxes working in society.
>
> So, again, it comes down to the government taking your monety whether
> you want them to or not. But it also coems down to a tacit admission
> that all EUers really are drones, all thinking the same way. Creepy.
It's called 'the caring society'.
Nobody has to starve here, or go without education, or die because they are
too poor to afford medical care, or live on the street (even though some
do).
We *vote* for such a society because the majority of us want it that way,
It's called 'democracy' and for once the will of the people really is
implemented.
FFF
Dirk
Scott Lowther
> It is not generous to refuse to pay one's part of the Healthcare
> burden of the state.
Uh-huh. And the questuion is... what should that burden actually be?
There's a difference between emergency responce, and womb-to-tomb life
support. In heathen days, making it to forty was surprising, and sixty
was damned near unheard of. Now people are shocked when relatives die
younger than 75. What do we do when science gets to the point where
anybody can be kept alive and sorta functional forever... just really
expensively? At what point do we say that "enough is enough?"
And at what point to do peopel who believe thety are so morally superior
realize that if they require armed troops to take money from others less
able to pay for their pet moralities... maybe they AREN'T so morally
superior?
Scott Lowther
What the hell are you blathering about? When I was sick and uninsured, I
paid the doctor and got better. When I was quite young and dirt poor
(during the magical Carter era), and my family had nothing, we still got
medical care, even though we didn't glom onto the taxpayers licks ticks.
Scott Lowther
> > > >Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
> > >
> > > One becomes an outlaw.
> >
> > And in modern society, that means federal agents holding a gun to the
> > head of the outlaw and hauling him off to jail.
>
> No, they just clean out your bank account.
> So much more civilised in Europe.
And if you don;t have a bank account? Or you have an account
inaccessible to your local Gestapo?
Scott Lowther
> >So, we're back to enforced nationalized health care = commie police
> >state.
>
> You've got a problem with living as part of a society with societal
> needs.
So how much (percentage) are you willing to spend on general healthcare?
Is 60% of your paycheck enough? How about 90%? Because, according to
you, if the governemnt comes along and says 90%, and you don't pay up,
then you are an unfeeling troll.
When did being Asatru become equated with being an unthinking minion of
government bureaocracy?
> If one does not pay these costs via taxes someone somewhere pays,
Or, nobody pays.
> people have to live.
Indeed. And people live quite well without stealing other people's
money.
Dirk Bruere
> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>
> > > > >Try not paying your taxes. What happens?
> > > >
> > > > One becomes an outlaw.
> > >
> > > And in modern society, that means federal agents holding a gun to the
> > > head of the outlaw and hauling him off to jail.
> >
> > No, they just clean out your bank account.
> > So much more civilised in Europe.
>
> And if you don;t have a bank account? Or you have an account
> inaccessible to your local Gestapo?
If you cannot pay the tax people are normally quite understanding.
If you won't pay and do not have a bank account they will take the money
from whatever income you do have.
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere
> Aemon wrote:
>
> > >So, we're back to enforced nationalized health care = commie police
> > >state.
> >
> > You've got a problem with living as part of a society with societal
> > needs.
>
> So how much (percentage) are you willing to spend on general healthcare?
> Is 60% of your paycheck enough? How about 90%? Because, according to
> you, if the governemnt comes along and says 90%, and you don't pay up,
> then you are an unfeeling troll.
In Britain IIRC its 7.5%
FFF
Dirk
Aemon
wrote:
>
This counter argument is pathetically beside the point and where have
I said that "if the governemnt comes along and says 90%, and you don't
pay up, then you are an unfeeling troll." I'll answer you, no fucking
where.
Nik
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Aemon wrote:
>
>> It is not generous to refuse to pay one's part of the Healthcare
>> burden of the state.
>
>Uh-huh. And the questuion is... what should that burden actually be?
According to you completely user pays.
>There's a difference between emergency responce, and womb-to-tomb life
>support. In heathen days, making it to forty was surprising, and sixty
>was damned near unheard of. Now people are shocked when relatives die
>younger than 75. What do we do when science gets to the point where
>anybody can be kept alive and sorta functional forever... just really
>expensively? At what point do we say that "enough is enough?"
>
>And at what point to do peopel who believe thety are so morally superior
>realize that if they require armed troops to take money from others less
>able to pay for their pet moralities... maybe they AREN'T so morally
>superior?
Healthcare - pet morality??? Where do you get off man?
I honestly hope that you fall foul of the uncaring attitude that you
express here, or your mother or father or one of your other relatives
who one day is hit by a hit and run driver but is currently out of
work, through no fault of their own and then requires health care to
survive.
Your view is called "Social Darwinism" and it is the feature of
humanity indeed the very definition of the term 'humane' that includes
the idea that humans might actually care for one another.
You tell me what does:
2. Hail, ye Givers! a guest is come;
say! where shall he sit within?
Much pressed is he who fain on the hearth
would seek for warmth and weal.
3. He hath need of fire, who now is come,
numbed with cold to the knee;
food and clothing the wanderer craves
who has fared o'er the rimy fell.
4. He craves for water, who comes for refreshment,
drying and friendly bidding,
marks of good will, fair fame if 'tis won,
and welcome once and again.
mean to you? Is it an exhortation to help others? I think it is.
Are you Asatru? I think not.
Nik
Nik
Aemon
<lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Aemon wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:15:29 -0800, Scott Lowther
>> <lex...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Aemon wrote:
>> >
>> >> I serve Odin, I pay my part of the national health care costs.
>> >>
>> >> That, is not communism.
>> >
>> >Yes, it is (socialism, anyway), when you do not have a say in how much
>> >you pay and to what. Especially given that nationalized health care is
>> >one of the elast efficient ways of goign about it... the best being: you
>> >break your arm, YOU pay the doctor. The concept of personal
>> >responsibility seems to be vanishing.
>>
>> I hope that you fall foul of the uncaring attitude that you express
>> some stage and wakeup Scott.
>
>What the hell are you blathering about? When I was sick and uninsured, I
>paid the doctor and got better.
Good luck that you actually had SOME money. What of those who have
none through no fault of their own?
Evil is that which causes suffering, going without needed medical
treatment causes suffering. A state policy of denying medical care to
those who cannot pay is therefore, evil.
> When I was quite young and dirt poor
>(during the magical Carter era), and my family had nothing, we still got
>medical care,
According to you this is wrong. If you had nothing then you couldn't
have afforeded user pays.
> even though we didn't glom onto the taxpayers licks ticks.
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Nik
Aemon
Who paid?
>Some peopel seem to think that if you're poor and uninsured, that there
>is no good health care to be had. That's bunk.
You're contradicting yourself.
>> I would gladly pay taxes for free healthcare.
>
>That's nice. What about those people who wouldn't?
They can go and form their little country, 'Selfishland' off somewhere
else. Your attitude makes me sick AND it is contrary to the Havamal
and the central theme of the Sagas.
What is it, again, that makes you Asatru Scott?
Nik