Information On Asatru
Stephen
enough information to make me want to be part of the faith, but now I am
looking for more indepth information. I would like to know more of the
ceremony(s), how do I dedicate myself to Odin, for example. I have not been
able to find a "kindred" or "tribe" in my area, so I am looking for some
help. I live in the Southern Ontario area.
Stephen
Michael Kouvatsos
Gods, Goddesses, Wights, men, tribes, or Kindreds until you've been
Asatru for several years. As for the other information, some of us can
help.
First tip of the day: Stay away from Edred Thorrson's and Freya Aswynn's
books, as well as anything published by Llywellyn's Publications.
___
Michael
Raab
"Michael Kouvatsos" <heathe...@verizon.net> wrote
> First tip of the day: Stay away from Edred Thorrson's and Freya Aswynn's
> books, as well as anything published by Llywellyn's Publications.
But keep in mind that some of us will recommend books by those two authors
to you. Some of the material is good.
Grimner
about, Since we often make promises long before we have enough
information to know that we cant possibly go through with it, or that we
may somehow break it...
I would say, wait until you have massive confidence in the issue at hand
before taking on an oath.
-Grimner-
Michael Kouvatsos
Nope .... not really.... I've read a few of his and her works ....
Thorrson does seem to have his HISTORY good, but his theories are
heavily biased from his history and involvement in hermetic orders (i'm
softening up the truth here).
As for Aswynn, (aka Ass-wind), her works just SUCK. There is NO other
way to put it .... it ... just ... SUCKS.
__
Michael
>
>
Steven T Abell
> have found enough information to make me want to be part of the
> faith, but now I am looking for more indepth information.
Read the mythology in as many translations as you can get.
Then give yourself some time to digest it all.
I first heard the stories when my age was in single digits.
I'm 47 now and still learning from them.
> I would like to know more of the
> ceremony(s), how do I dedicate myself to Odin, for example.
Personally,
I think that people who go looking for Odin are either very stupid,
or else very smart in ways that I'm not and don't wish to be.
If he wants you, he'll find you, and you might not enjoy the result.
Get to know some of the other gods really well.
Then, if Bolverk shows up at your door,
you might have some idea what to do with him.
Don't get hung up on ceremonies.
They're nice, but they're not what does it.
And don't be in such a hurry.
Our friends will still be here next week, next month, next year.
The real question is: will you be?
No ceremony will change the answer to that.
> I have not been able to find a "kindred" or "tribe" in my area
From what I hear,
many de facto heathens read the books,
discover that they know the gods,
and think they are alone.
I was one of those.
I know some other heathens these days,
but most of my involvement is still solitary.
If you find a kindred, great.
If not, you can still do this by yourself.
Steve
Tiwazsson
Michael Kouvatsos schrieb:
> First off, do *not* dedicate yourself to anyone or anything; including
> Gods, Goddesses, Wights, men, tribes, or Kindreds until you've been
> Asatru for several years. As for the other information, some of us can
> help.
>
> First tip of the day: Stay away from Edred Thorrson's
Why?
Tiwazsson
Michael Kouvatsos schrieb:
> First off, do *not* dedicate yourself to anyone or anything; including
> Gods, Goddesses, Wights, men, tribes, or Kindreds until you've been
> Asatru for several years. As for the other information, some of us can
> help.
>
> First tip of the day: Stay away from Edred Thorrson's
Why?
and Freya Aswynn's
> books, as well as anything published by Llywellyn's Publications.
> ___
> Michael
>
> Stephen wrote:
>
>> I have been looking ito Asatru over the last couple of months and have
>> found
>> enough information to make me want to be part of the faith, but now I am
>> looking for more indepth information. I would like to know more of the
>> ceremony(s), how do I dedicate myself to Odin, for example. I have
>> not been
>> able to find a "kindred" or "tribe" in my area, so I am looking for some
>> help. I live in the Southern Ontario area.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Ihre bevorzugten Shops, hilfreiche Einkaufs-Hilfen und groflartige
Geschenk Ideen. Erleben Sie das Vergn經en online einzukaufen mit
Shop@Netscape! http://shopping.netscape.de/shopping/
Tiwazsson
Michael Kouvatsos schrieb:
> First off, do *not* dedicate yourself to anyone or anything; including
> Gods, Goddesses, Wights, men, tribes, or Kindreds until you've been
> Asatru for several years. As for the other information, some of us can
> help.
>
> First tip of the day: Stay away from Edred Thorrson
Why?
Michael Kouvatsos
Tiwazsson wrote:
> Michael Kouvatsos schrieb:
>
>> First tip of the day: Stay away from Edred Thorrson's
>
>
> Why?
In a nut shell, he sucks, but I'll go into more detail....
First let me say, that even though i dont like him, I do give credit
where it is due. His background history, and the EXAMPLES he gives, are
good. But ... that's it.
He was part of a self proclaimed satanic hermetic group, and that
clearly shows in his works. His description of Yggdrasil, showing it to
be like the Kaballistic Tree of Life, and his numberology, are examples
of his bias. Also, acording to him, nearly half the Gods, from Loki to
Heimdall, are all aspects of Odin. His theory is more based in
middle-eastern Kaballa then in actual Norse practice.
My recomendation is Bernard King's "The Elements of the Runes." Its
not flawless, but it gives the basic meanings of the runes, and most of
my own interpretations of the numbers and their meaning come from him,
although I dont agree with some of his (he has 4 meaning discomfort,
wereas I see it as being the Cardinal points, et al).
___
Michael
Grimner
Sofar, i wasted money on Thorssens books. I guess its a good thing i
havent heard of asswynd. And with my quenching of historical knowledge,
i only buy so many books at a time because i really dislike and cant
afford crap.
-Grimner-
Michael Kouvatsos
because they have less shit then the others.
Helrunar, by Jan Fries
Elements of the Runes, by Bernard King
And, of course, Poetic Edda and Egil's Saga.
The rest I refer to as the "funny pages." Especially Ass-wind's works.
claiming that EVERY rune is femenine, possessing color and zodiac and
tarot (and she's suppose to be an Asatru Shamaness? HA!). She claims
Inguz, a rune named after a God who has a statue representing him with
an erect penis (Freyr), is a rune of FEMALE fertility. And that
Perthro, whose rune poem speaks of warriors playing dice in the
beer-hall, ORIGINALLY spoke of women playing with babies in the birthing
hall, and that perthro is a rune of giving birth.
Of course, she also speaks of casting circles during magic...
<sarcasm>
The fact that she was a wiccan before hand (and in my not so humble
opinion is still a Wiccatru) has nothing to do with her theories.
</sarcasm>
I can go on and on about her .... she really is my most hated author.
Her book reads like a "OH LOOK AT ME, I'm a SHAMAN, look at what I
know, and what I can do, I dress up in silly skins" type shit. Just
take a look at her picture and try and not to laugh; i dare you. She
really tries to hard.
I need to finish organising and writing out my own book .... it should
be done sometime before Ragnarok .....
__
Michael
Aemon
Welcome to Asatru Stephen.
I wish you luck in your search. You've made an important first step.
Best wishes
Nik Warrensson
New Zealand Asatru Fellowship
Aemon
Which bits? I've read some awful made up tripe in some of the new age
bookshops about the place.
The safest bet is to stay the Hel away from the sort of material that
inhabits the shelves of New Age bookshops.
Anything written by Hilda Ellis-Davidson and Kevin Crossley-Holland on
these matters is worth reading.
Bless
Nik
Raab
"Aemon" <repub...@email.com> wrote in message
news:pto93v0rqcejfrbn4...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 16:19:29 -0500, "Raab"
> <raven(seventhreetimesinnumeric)@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Michael Kouvatsos" <heathe...@verizon.net> wrote
> >> First tip of the day: Stay away from Edred Thorrson's and Freya
Aswynn's
> >> books, as well as anything published by Llywellyn's Publications.
> >
> >But keep in mind that some of us will recommend books by those two
authors
> >to you. Some of the material is good.
>
> Which bits? I've read some awful made up tripe in some of the new age
> bookshops about the place.
I've not read any of Aswynn's stuff, but "Thorsson" seems to know what he is
talking about as long as you don't take his theories as fact. But anyway,
he is better for beginners to read than the guy who made up the 'wyrd rune'
(he shall remain nameless)
>
> The safest bet is to stay the Hel away from the sort of material that
> inhabits the shelves of New Age bookshops.
And keep in mind that just because something says 'runes' on it, or
something that sounds Asatru related, does not mean it is.
Doug Freyburger
>
> I've not read any of Aswynn's stuff, but "Thorsson" seems to know what he is
> talking about as long as you don't take his theories as fact. But anyway,
> he is better for beginners to read than the guy who made up the 'wyrd rune'
> (he shall remain nameless)
Steven Flowers aka Edred Thorsson seems to know his stuff because he does.
He earned a PhD in Germanic religion the hard way, but years of dedicated
study.
I hesitate to recommend his books to rank beginners because he has such an
overwhelming agenda. It's easy to filter out his agenda from his facts,
but I doubt it's worth it for the beginner. After a couple of years in
heathenry I think it's worth plowing through some of his work. Know in
advance you likely won't want to plow through *all* of his work, though.
As he got more and more involved in the Temple of Set leadership his books
got stranger and stranger. He went from comparing runes actually found on
stones in Europe with runes used by several older civilizations in his older
books to runic yoga posses of the runes in his newer books. Guess which
folks tend to favor ... Since he has become inactive in the Temple of Set
I don't know of any more books he's written so there isn't any reverse
trend of newer-still books getting better.
Nonetheless, if faced with the choice of a book by someone clueless like
Blum who didn't even know that words were separated by one dot "." and
grammatical stops (any punctuation) where represented by two dots ":", or
someone well versed like Thorsson, I'm inclined to go with well versed.
I don't particuarly like any of the choices available on runes. Some are
too dry and academic, some too clueless, some too whooshy, and some too
irritating to filter out the agendas. What I do like is surfing Sweden
and Norwegian image sites and looking at photographs of real historic rune
stones, but that doesn't do much for teaching me meaning.
Doug Freyburger
> Stephen wrote:
>
> > I would like to know more of the
> > ceremony(s), how do I dedicate myself to Odin, for example.
>
> Gods, Goddesses, Wights, men, tribes, or Kindreds until you've been
> Asatru for several years.
I reitterate this advice for two reasons:
1) Swearing an oath to anything in the first five years is a *bad* idea.
The dropout rate for religious converts is high in the first five years, but
oaths don't care if you lose interest. Swearing and oath and then going
back on it lessens your worth as a person. Having the wisdom to wait until
you have settled into the religion before swearing an oath increases your
worth as a person. I waited 6 years before swearing allegiance to the Aesir.
2) Historically very few people dedicated themselves to a single diety, so
in very many cases the urge to do so is a sign of newbie-ness not a sign
that that one diety insists. Note that for dedicants it is the god that
does the selection not the person. If you want to dedicate to Odin because
you like the idea, don't, period. If you were called to Asatru by Odin and
that's your reason, think of the traditional draft telegram. Does the person
drafted into the military swear to follow the orders of the draft board or
of the entire military command structure? That's right, a call BY a god is
not automatically a call TO that god. If Odin wants you, he'll insist.
Don't worry, if he insists it will be clear to you that is what's happening.
There are people here who were indeed called to follow Odin in specific, but
the number is small once you get past the first 5 years of newbieness.
Hail Asgard!
Doug Freyburger
Aemon
wrote:
Were you aware, Doug, that Dirk Bruere and I have been to Bohuslan and
viewed the real thing carved into the living rock?
I take it you've also seen this website:
http://forn-sed.no/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album02
Bless
Nik
Michael Kouvatsos
>I don't particuarly like any of the choices available on runes. Some are
>too dry and academic, some too clueless, some too whooshy, and some too
>irritating to filter out the agendas. What I do like is surfing Sweden
>and Norwegian image sites and looking at photographs of real historic rune
>stones, but that doesn't do much for teaching me meaning.
>
>
I will say this... R.I. Page, even though he doesn't beleive or speak of
magic in any of his books, is still an excellent author, and CERTAINLY
worth reading, even if he is dry and academic. Look for his book
entitled simply "Runes."
Mike
Aemon
Sounds really good to me. Do you have an ISBN number?
Bless
Nik
Michael Kouvatsos
uuuuughhhh....... ? huh?
Mike the confused...... ?
Steven T Abell
Steve
Doug Freyburger
> Aemon wrote:
>
> > > I will say this... R.I. Page, even though he doesn't beleive or speak of
> > > magic in any of his books, is still an excellent author, and CERTAINLY
> > > worth reading, even if he is dry and academic. Look for his book
> > > entitled simply "Runes."
>
> >Sounds really good to me. Do you have an ISBN number?
>
International Standard Book Numbering system. All books published for several
decades have an ISBN number near the front of them on the same page as the
copyright notice, and most have them on the cover as well.
Something like this: ISBN 0-89435-390-x
Different publishers will put the dashes between different digits.
Many bookstores take an ISBN and tell you what shelf to find it. Most
bookstores can do a special order using only the ISBN to identify it.
Michael Kouvatsos
Well, look at that, I learned something new...
__
Mike
Aemon
wrote:
>ISBN: 0520061144
Thanks
Nik
Tiwazsson
Acknowledgements he states "I am especially grateful for the
inspiration and encouragement offered by Freya Aswynn" plus later on
page 2 "Much of the original research I undertook has since been
duplicated and published by others, with Freya Aswynn and Edred Thorsson
being among the most notable." I'm not sure what you are getting at -
that reading Aswynn and Thorsson will turn you away from the authentic
ASATRU and into the path of "Satan". If that is true what do you
consider the Authentic path?
Michael Kouvatsos
Tiwazsson,
Perhaps he does acknowledge them, but his work is certainly
different.
As for the "Satanic" path you are speaking of, i have no
clue where you are getting that from. If you are refering to the
comments made about Thorsson, Edred Thorsson himself admits to
being part of a Satanic cult called the Temple of Set. I am not
making it up, the information is out there.
Thorsson's books reflect his background; he mixes Norse
mythology with Hermetic and Kaballic concepts. The Kabala is
Hebrew, and the Hermetic Order is based on Hebrew and Egyptian
traditions. I am sure you would agree that neither of those have
a place in Asatru.
As for what I concider the true path of Asatru... That's
simple. The path our spiritual Ancestors walked. Which is not
what Aswynn nor Thorsson write of.
____
In Frith,
Michael Kouvatsos
Grimnir
From what I've gathered, Page is probably the best 'scientific' source on
Runes. I guess his work may be a bit dated. I really don't know if there
has been more archaeological material discovered bearing Runes.
What date does page give for the earliest Runes? What's he base it on?
--
You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny. - The Brihadaranyaka
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Michael Kouvatsos" <heathe...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3E388C2D...@verizon.net...
It's a small world.
I met Bernard King a few years ago.
He was a friend of my sister's first husband.
He was also Freya Aswynn's boyfriend and a Chaos Magician (member of the
IOT).
FFF
Dirk
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <di...@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:b1aqlk$11di5l$1...@ID-120108.news.dfncis.de...
> > Tiwazsson,
> > Perhaps he does acknowledge them, but his work is certainly
> > different.
> > As for the "Satanic" path you are speaking of, i have no
> > clue where you are getting that from. If you are refering to the
> > comments made about Thorsson, Edred Thorsson himself admits to
> > being part of a Satanic cult called the Temple of Set. I am not
> > making it up, the information is out there.
> > Thorsson's books reflect his background; he mixes Norse
> > mythology with Hermetic and Kaballic concepts. The Kabala is
> > Hebrew, and the Hermetic Order is based on Hebrew and Egyptian
> > traditions. I am sure you would agree that neither of those have
> > a place in Asatru.
> > As for what I concider the true path of Asatru... That's
> > simple. The path our spiritual Ancestors walked. Which is not
> > what Aswynn nor Thorsson write of.
>
> It's a small world.
> I met Bernard King a few years ago.
> He was a friend of my sister's first husband.
> He was also Freya Aswynn's boyfriend and a Chaos Magician (member of the
> IOT).
Only other thing of note is that when he was talking to me he kept a gun on
his desk:-)
[Which might be quite usual for America, except it was in Britain]
FFF
Dirk
Grimnir
>
> Only other thing of note is that when he was talking to me he kept a gun
> on his desk:-)
> [Which might be quite usual for America, except it was in Britain]
Nope. That counts as a nutcase even in the USA.
> FFF
> Dirk
Julia A M Simon
dfre...@yahoo.com (Doug Freyburger) writes:
[snip snip]
> International Standard Book Numbering system. All books published for several
> decades have an ISBN number near the front of them on the same page as the
> copyright notice, and most have them on the cover as well.
>
> Something like this: ISBN 0-89435-390-x
>
> Different publishers will put the dashes between different digits.
Just in case anyone's interested: the second group of numbers indicates the
publisher and the third some kind of publisher-specific reference number
for the book in question. Since an ISBN is supposed to have ten digits, no
more, no less, you can usually tell from the length of the third group just
how large -- or small -- a publishing house is: the larger (or actually:
the more proliferous) the publisher, the longer the third group and the
shorter the second.
The very first group indicates either the country in which the book was
published or the language, I forget... Here, too, smaller
countries/languages will have longer numbers because they need fewer digits
later on (far more books published in the US than in, say, Lithuania).
(Of course this information won't be of much use to most of us in those
cases where people give an ISBN without the dashes... It still uniquely
identifies a book, though, with or without dashes.)
> Many bookstores take an ISBN and tell you what shelf to find it. Most
> bookstores can do a special order using only the ISBN to identify it.
Every bookseller worth his or her salt should be able to do this, but,
well, we're not living in a perfect world... ;-)
CU,
Julia 8-)
(booksellers' genes from both sides of the family)
--
Julia Simon --- Hyppääjätär --- Sprachen-Freak vom Dienst
_@" schn...@iki.fi, http://www.iki.fi/~schnecki/ "@_
"Where linguists gather, madness abounds" --- story of my life
Michael Kouvatsos
<snip>
>
> From what I've gathered, Page is probably the best 'scientific' source on
> Runes. I guess his work may be a bit dated. I really don't know if there
> has been more archaeological material discovered bearing Runes.
>
> What date does page give for the earliest Runes? What's he base it on?
He dates the earliest to 200 CE, or "perhaps a little later."
His base as you put it, are from the excavations of bogs in
Schleswig, Fyn, Sjaelland, Jylland, Skane.
bowman
> Nope. That counts as a nutcase even in the USA.
I don't know if I'd go that far. I think I've got one buried under the
books, magazines, CD-R's, radios, kleenex and other shit on my desk.
Horizontal surfaces collect stuff, and I have no reason to maintain a
kid-safe environment.
otoh, if it was a fashion statement, then that is pushing the nutcase level.
Grimnir
> Grimnir wrote:
>
>> Nope. That counts as a nutcase even in the USA.
>
> I don't know if I'd go that far. I think I've got one buried under the
> books, magazines, CD-R's, radios, kleenex and other shit on my desk.
> Horizontal surfaces collect stuff, and I have no reason to maintain a
> kid-safe environment.
In that case, I think it becomes a question of whether the f'n thing's
loaded and off safety.
Michael Kouvatsos
> bowman wrote:
>
>
>>Grimnir wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Nope. That counts as a nutcase even in the USA.
>>
>>I don't know if I'd go that far. I think I've got one buried under the
>>books, magazines, CD-R's, radios, kleenex and other shit on my desk.
>>Horizontal surfaces collect stuff, and I have no reason to maintain a
>>kid-safe environment.
>
>
> In that case, I think it becomes a question of whether the f'n thing's
> loaded and off safety.
>
>
>
My room is decorated with knives. I've got at least one on ever
wall. Infact, I have two right above my computer monitor within
easy reach should I stand up. ;) But I'm not the best model of
sanity... My girfriend will attest to that.
I've got a question, btw; Lets say hypothetically, I set up a
room to be my "hof" so to speak. Nothing but an altar, and
ritual tools (sacred sledge hammer, elagant wine glass, arm ring,
etc). Now ... Would it be "wrong" to have the room decorated
with knives? I know hofs are traditionally kept free of weapons,
but mind you, Valhalla is decorated with swords; infact, they are
used to provide light. The "Torches of Valhalla." On the other
hand, Valhalla is not a hof, but a hall. Does anyone else have
or have thought of having their sacred enclosure decorated with
weapons?
btw, I KNOW I'll have a hammer pendant hanging in the center of
each wall...
--
Stephen
my runes here and do most of my reading here. I have the 25th anniversary
heavy metal sword hanging on the wall...
Stephen
"Michael Kouvatsos" <heathe...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3E39F421...@verizon.net...
Doug Freyburger
> bowman wrote:
> > Grimnir wrote:
>
> > > Nope. That counts as a nutcase even in the USA.
>
> > I don't know if I'd go that far. I think I've got one buried under the
> > books, magazines, CD-R's, radios, kleenex and other shit on my desk.
Buried on desk, in a drawer. Neither makes it a visible item. The only
time I recall a visible pistol on a desk was in the home of a single woman
living on her own. I'm not sure that was a good enough reason to disqualify
her from being a nutcase. What good would it do out? Fighten away her
invited guests? It's not like uninvited ones would be able to tell if it
was out beforehand.
> In that case, I think it becomes a question of whether the f'n thing's
> loaded and off safety.
If I haven't physically inspected it and looked into its chamber, it IS
loaded and off safety. That's the second rule of firearms, after Never
point a gun, loaded or not, at a person you aren't willing to shoot.
Rorik
> I took a look at King's "The Elements of the Runes". In his
> Acknowledgements he states "I am especially grateful for the
> inspiration and encouragement offered by Freya Aswynn" plus later on
> page 2 "Much of the original research I undertook has since been
> duplicated and published by others, with Freya Aswynn and Edred Thorsson
> being among the most notable."
Actually, there are *two* important lessons to be learned here. (1)
When someone with no formal training or background in a discipline
offers to share his "original research" with you, run the other way.
(2) When someone with no formal training or background in a discipline
acknowledges his intellectual debt to someone else with no formal
training or background in the discipline, run faster.
:^},
rorik
Grimnir
Seems you've pretty much invalidated the development of thermodynamics here.
--
Grimnir
Oh, I should have added a bit here. Not that I hold his views in high
regard. I really haven't read his work, so I'm not in a position to judge.
But Edred Thorsson *does* have a Ph.D. in linguistics, and did his Ph.D.
disertation on Rune Magic. As I've said, I'm not trying to affirm the
reliability of SEF's work. I'm merely attempting to demonstrate the worth
of your opinions as to what a reliable source might be. Thus far, I've
come to the conclusion that Rorix thinks a reliable source is one that
supports what Rorix has to say. Any other source is unreliable according
to Rorix.
Rorik
> Rorik wrote:
>
> > Tiwazsson <Tiwa...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> > news:<3E3865...@netscape.net>...
> >> I took a look at King's "The Elements of the Runes". In his
> >> Acknowledgements he states "I am especially grateful for the
> >> inspiration and encouragement offered by Freya Aswynn" plus later on
> >> page 2 "Much of the original research I undertook has since been
> >> duplicated and published by others, with Freya Aswynn and Edred Thorsson
> >> being among the most notable."
> >
> > Actually, there are *two* important lessons to be learned here. (1)
> > When someone with no formal training or background in a discipline
> > offers to share his "original research" with you, run the other way.
> > (2) When someone with no formal training or background in a discipline
> > acknowledges his intellectual debt to someone else with no formal
> > training or background in the discipline, run faster.
> >
> > :^},
> > rorik
> Seems you've pretty much invalidated the development of thermodynamics here.
LOL! Look, Stevie, if you want to go on record as equating the
amateurish mystical mumbo-jumbo of King and Aswynn with "the
development of thermodynamics," be my guest! I wouldn't have thought
it possible for you to make a greater joke of yourself than you
already have, but with this kind of diligence, who knows?
:^D,
rorik
Rorik
Which pretty much reinforces what was already obvious about the value
of your speculative, uninformed "conclusions." As for Flowers' rather
limited body of serious work, I imagine I am considerably more
familiar with it than you. (Ever heard of Societas Magica? I doubt
it.) It would also be clear too the average 10-year-old that neither
King's acknowledgment nor my post had anything to do with this
material. Stick to what you're good at, and stop making a fool of
yourself replying to posts that are not directed to you.
regards,
rorik
Michael Kouvatsos
Even though King mentions Aswynn and Thorsson, his work and
descriptions in his book are nothing like what they refer too.
Again, in all the books i've read, and I have a collection, his
was the only one that seemed good. Like I said before, his
number system is sound, but his ideas of what each number meant I
found to be a little off; that's my only complaint.
Grimnir
QED
Grimnir
> Grimnir <valf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<lu2dne6DMa9...@speakeasy.net>...
>> Rorik wrote:
> As for Flowers' rather
> limited body of serious work, I imagine I am considerably more
> familiar with it than you. (Ever heard of Societas Magica? I doubt
> it.)
> rorik
No, can't say I've ever heard of it. I tend to stear clear of the section
of the bookstore. Just going of the top of the stacks of books sitting by
my desk for an example of the authors I tend to read: Polome,
Cavalli-Sforza, Simon Blackburn, Pierre Riche, Jaan Puhvel, H. R. E.
Davidson, Herwig Wolfram, Peter S. Wells, J.P. Mallory, Snorri Sturlason,
Steven Wolfram, John A. Wheeler, Arnold Golsing and Holmes, R. P. Feynman,
Roman Maeder, Barry Cunliffe, Siddharth Gautama, and
http://www.speakeasy.org/~hattons/
"For profit and salutary instruction , admonition and pursuit of
wisdom, reason and good manners: also for contempt and punishment
of folly, blindness, error, and stupidity of all stations and kinds
of men: with special zeal, earnestness, and labor compiled
at Basel by Sebastian Brant, doctor in both laws."
Ship of Fools - Robert Plant
On waves of love my heart is breaking
And stranger still my self control
I can't rely on anymore
New tides surprise my world it's changing
Within this frame an ocean swells
Behind this smile I know it well
Beneath a lover's moon I'm waiting
I am the pilot of the storm Adrift in pleasure I may drown
I built this ship it is my making
And furthermore my self control I can't rely on anymore
I know why I know why
Crazy on a ship of fools Crazy on a ship of fools
Turn this boat around back to my loving ground Oh no, oh no
Who claims that no man is an island
While I land up in jeopardy
More distant from you by degrees
I walk this shore in isolation
And at my feet eternity tries ever sweeter plans for me
I know why I know why
Crazy on a ship of fools
Oh, crazy on a ship of fools
Turn this boat around back to my loving ground
Oh no, oh no Ship of fools
Turn this boat around back to my loving ground Oh no,
oh Crazy on a ship of fools Oh, crazy on a ship of fools
Turn this boat around back to my loving ground Oh no, oh no Ship of fools
Rorik
Grimnir wrote in message ...
Rorik wrote:
> Grimnir <valf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<lu2dne6DMa9...@speakeasy.net>...
>> Rorik wrote:
> As for Flowers' rather
> limited body of serious work, I imagine I am considerably more
> familiar with it than you. (Ever heard of Societas Magica? I doubt
> it.)
> rorik
>No, can't say I've ever heard of it. I tend to stear clear of the section
>of the bookstore.
I think that rather makes my point. Your solipsistic pretensions of
erudition are belied both by the superficiality of your purported analysis
and by your glaring ignorance of the serious work in the field. Stick to
album liners.
regards,
rorik
Grimnir
Well, I can't say I've ever had much to criticize in you what you've
produced. Not for the quality of the material, but rather for the lack of
it. I'm very impressed with you ability to use a thesaurus. Do you know
what those big words mean?
And what has "Societas Magica" to do with pre-Christian Indo-European
culture? Is this you new source of reliable information on all matters
Asatru?
Rorik
>
> Even though King mentions Aswynn and Thorsson, his work and
> descriptions in his book are nothing like what they refer too.
> Again, in all the books i've read, and I have a collection, his
> was the only one that seemed good. Like I said before, his
> number system is sound, but his ideas of what each number meant I
> found to be a little off; that's my only complaint.
What are your criteria for a "sound number system?" What is the basis
in Asatru lore for associating the runes with numbers?
regards,
rorik
Rorik
>produced. Not for the quality of the material, but rather for the lack of
>it. I'm very impressed with you ability to use a thesaurus. Do you know
>what those big words mean?
Are you having some sort of contest with yourself to see if you can keep
saying something stupider every time you open your mouth? I secured
publication of 13 scholarly articles last year alone, none of which, I
suspect, you would understand.
>And what has "Societas Magica" to do with pre-Christian Indo-European
>culture? Is this you new source of reliable information on all matters
>Asatru?
It's only new to you, apparently. Everyone who has a serious scholarly
interest in runic magic -- which was the subject under discussion until you
injected your commentary -- is well aware of this group, of which I am a
member.
Stick to album liners.
regards,
rorik
--
Michael Kouvatsos
> Grimnir wrote in message ...
>
>>Well, I can't say I've ever had much to criticize in you what you've
>>produced. Not for the quality of the material, but rather for the lack of
>>it. I'm very impressed with you ability to use a thesaurus. Do you know
>>what those big words mean?
>
>
> Are you having some sort of contest with yourself to see if you can keep
> saying something stupider
stupider?
> every time you open your mouth? I secured
> publication of 13 scholarly articles last year alone, none of which, I
> suspect, you would understand.
>
>
>>And what has "Societas Magica" to do with pre-Christian Indo-European
>>culture? Is this you new source of reliable information on all matters
>>Asatru?
>
>
> It's only new to you, apparently. Everyone who has a serious scholarly
> interest in runic magic -- which was the subject under discussion until you
> injected your commentary -- is well aware of this group, of which I am a
> member.
>
It was founded in 1995. Its ... fairly new. "Everyone who has a
serious scholarly interest in runic magic..." And the society
has a latin name. Yep ... good place to go to learn rune magic
:)
Michael Kouvatsos
Its obvious you never read the book. He doesn't assosiate the
runes with numbers; THAT is why I say it is sound. Because, as
you point out, there IS NO BASIS in the lore for the Runes to
have number value themselves. Its the NUMBERS themselves that
have meaning. Ex: Two is the number of servitude; when ever you
see mention of a pair, it more than likely shows service to
another. Odin has two ravens that serve him, and two wolves that
acompany him. Thor has two goats, and two servant-children.
Gerd's hall is protected by two wolves. "Tyr is to be twice
named" ... thereby giving the power of victory in YOUR hands,
under YOUR control. That is the kind of number-lore I see in
Asatru lore. Everything from 1-9. I've even seen a reference in
a Saga, to explain a length of time as seven half-seasons. Not
three and a half winters, or three and a half years, but seven
half seasons. Seven from what I've gathered, being the number
that represents the effort and time to GET to your goal (which is
represented by 8. The fruit of your goal is 9). Sure enough,
the lady mentioned to stayed someplace for seven half-seasons,
was traveling someplace else... and she left at seventh half season.
--
Grimnir
> Grimnir wrote in message ...
>>Well, I can't say I've ever had much to criticize in you what you've
>>produced. Not for the quality of the material, but rather for the lack of
>>it. I'm very impressed with you ability to use a thesaurus. Do you know
>>what those big words mean?
>
> Are you having some sort of contest with yourself to see if you can keep
> saying something stupider every time you open your mouth? I secured
> publication of 13 scholarly articles last year alone, none of which, I
> suspect, you would understand.
>
>>And what has "Societas Magica" to do with pre-Christian Indo-European
>>culture? Is this you new source of reliable information on all matters
>>Asatru?
>
> It's only new to you, apparently. Everyone who has a serious scholarly
> interest in runic magic -- which was the subject under discussion until
> you injected your commentary -- is well aware of this group, of which I am
> a member.
>
> Stick to album liners.
>
> regards,
> rorik
>
Now and Zen they've been known to get it right.
Grimnir
> Grimnir wrote in message ...
>>Well, I can't say I've ever had much to criticize in you what you've
>>produced. Not for the quality of the material, but rather for the lack of
>>it. I'm very impressed with you ability to use a thesaurus. Do you know
>>what those big words mean?
>
> Are you having some sort of contest with yourself to see if you can keep
> saying something stupider every time you open your mouth? I secured
> publication of 13 scholarly articles last year alone, none of which, I
> suspect, you would understand.
>
>>And what has "Societas Magica" to do with pre-Christian Indo-European
>>culture? Is this you new source of reliable information on all matters
>>Asatru?
>
> It's only new to you, apparently. Everyone who has a serious scholarly
> interest in runic magic -- which was the subject under discussion until
> you injected your commentary -- is well aware of this group, of which I am
> a member.
>
You made a statement about a general approach to scholarship which I found
misguided. I merely noted an instance where your proposed means of
assessing the worth of a person's ideas would lead to the rejection of a
large body of good science.
"Everyone who has a serious scholarly interest in runic magic"
Scratching head...hmmm....OK.
Doug Freyburger
> Grimnir wrote:
> > Rorik wrote:
>
> > > Actually, there are *two* important lessons to be learned here. (1)
> > > When someone with no formal training or background in a discipline
> > > offers to share his "original research" with you, run the other way.
> > > (2) When someone with no formal training or background in a discipline
> > > acknowledges his intellectual debt to someone else with no formal
> > > training or background in the discipline, run faster.
>
> > here.
>
> mystical mumbo-jumbo of King and Aswynn with "the development of
> thermodynamics," be my guest!
Have you actually learned how the science of thermodynamics was developed?
It was one of the most backward and amateurish processes in all of scientific
history. For it to make any sense at all the order of events has to be
rewritten completely. From the time quantum mechanics was suggested as an
explanation for entropy to the time most physicists understood that
implication, there was a maze of random events. It took a long time to sort
it out and the sequence depicted in most freshman/sophomore texts is completely
revisionist.
Lot's of advances have been made by people without formal training in that
field. It isn't an a priori reason to discard a piece of work. It is an
a priori reason to view the work with suspicion.
From what I've read on the runes, *evrything* that goes beyond alternative
phonetic values and alternative stave shapes should be viewed with suspicion.
Deciding on magical intent is *always* a guess, even when the original author
can be interviewed in person.
Tim Doughty
>phonetic values and alternative stave shapes should be viewed with suspicion.
>Deciding on magical intent is *always* a guess, even when the original author
>can be interviewed in person.
>
That's why that one should stop and take a breath before pissing on Ralph Blum.
There's another thread on runes going where his name came up, so this is
apropo. I don't mind at all being a champion for Blum. Not that I think is
book is "good", but because he's way too easy to trash.
No, I don't necessarily put Blum's book in the same category as others written
by heathen authors, and no, I don't use the blank rune anymore.
But what's the big deal? Using the runes for magic and divination as we do it
today is almost a totally modern application. In my view, it's practically an
act of blind faith to assume that Thorsson has got it right and Blum is full of
crap. Thorsson comes at it from a Germanic viewpoint and has done some
research to back it up. That counts for something. But is there any evidence
at all in written records of early heathens doing rune yoga, for example?
That's as much Thorsson's invention as the blank rune is Blum's invention.
We are confident that the early Germanics practiced divination with' symbols'
carved on wooden slips. There is no evidence that the Elder Futhark, the
Younger Futhark, or any of the rune rows we know of are the symbols which were
the ones used. They could have been any combination of these, any set of other
symbols, or pictures, or words, or painted colors, or blanks. We don't know.
Blum had the balls to write a book about what he didn't know. So did Thorsson,
so did Aswynn, and all of their imitators. Pick the one you like best, but own
up to the fact that you're doing based upon personal preferance and little
else.
Tim
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Tim Doughty" <tsdo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030206125144...@mb-mo.aol.com...
What it comes down to is who we want to inherit the future - because that is
what is being created.
FFF
Dirk
Rorik
> Rorik wrote:
>
> > It's only new to you, apparently. Everyone who has a serious scholarly
> > interest in runic magic -- which was the subject under discussion until you
> > injected your commentary -- is well aware of this group, of which I am a
> > member.
> >
>
> It was founded in 1995. Its ... fairly new. "Everyone who has a
> serious scholarly interest in runic magic..." And the society
> has a latin name. Yep ... good place to go to learn rune magic
>
> :)
> ____
> In Frith,
> Michael Kouvatsos
I take it that, like Grimnir, you have no knowledge of the Societas or
the scope of its research? I'm always amused at how total ignorance
has never been known to prevent the expression of opinions in these
forums!
LOL,
rorik
Tim Doughty
>What it comes down to is who we want to inherit the future - because that is
>what is being created.
That's a good way to put it. On several levels I feel better about going into
the future with some of Blum's ideas than some of Thorsson's. (I don't mean to
cast this debate in terms of
Thorsson vs. Blum, but it's convenient.) And that's purely personal. Like
many other people, Blum's book is what got me into runes, and from there I
found Asatru. For that alone I owe him a debt.
Blum's approach is mainly to make the runes into another form Tarot, which is
what most of the writers out there are doing. To me this also falls into the
"why not" category, since not many runesters I know are doing divination the
way it's described in Tacitus -- our only real source of info as far as I know.
Tim
Michael Kouvatsos
I see you didn't refute anything I said, so then it really was
made in 1995. Like I said, its a relatively new society. It
seems to be about magic in general, as used during the middle
ages. That's what their website says. Runes were before the
middle ages. By the time the middle ages came into being, it was
mostly a form of kaballa.
Why is this new society SOOO important to the study of the runes?
--
Grimnir
Because Rorix is a MEMBER.
Michael Kouvatsos
Pun intented? ;)
Grimnir
I just stumbled across this while looking for some stuff on UTF-8 so I could
transcribe an excerpt from Puhvel;
http://www.ragweedforge.com/poems.html
IMO, any and all worthy work on the Runes will make extensive use of the
historical Rune Poems. It will also involve a careful study of ancient
alphebets with a view toward identifying the best candidates for having
influenced the formation of Runic.
I believe SEF did some fairly good work in this regard. Though I will
acknowledge I have not focused on the Runes. I don't believe I have a
sufficient background to effectively analyse the Rune Poems in their
original form.
If Rorik's gang are taking this kind of approach to studying the Runes, then
their work may be of merit. If I were to undertake a study of the Runes at
this point I would begin with Page's book. I would also review the work of
Gordon. I would then work through the Rune Poems with as many good
dictionaries of the relevant languages as I could get my hands on.
At the same time, I would make an effort to try to determine what context
the available Runic inscriptions were recorded in. That is, what kind of
culture were the people living in? What kinds of events surrounded the
instance of their being recorded, etc. Much of this kind of information
can only be gleened rather speculatively from archaeological and historical
evidence.
At this point, I am completely at a loss for a good context in which to
place the earliest Futhark. The best opinion anyone seems to have
regarding the origin of the Germani is that expressed by Todd. To
summarize what Todd said in a paraphrase: 'we might be able to possibly
speculate that some of the evidence indicates a culture may have existed at
some time before the historical record, but that would realy be pushing the
evidence. There may have been a proto-germanic culture somewhere up north,
at some time, but anybody who would make a definite claim to having
identified the acutal proto-germanic archeological complex would be
introducing a degree of certainty into the corpus of evidence not justified
by the current state of the study. i.e., 'beats the sh!t out of me!'
Michael Kouvatsos
Agreed; that would be concidered part of the lore, and the Lore
has presidence over anything any modern day author can come up with.
Grimnir
This is what bugs me so much about having my ideas dismissed as worthless
just because they aren't found in some academic journal. I put a real
effort into selecting reliable, useful, and factual information. I've been
at this for years.
Just a few days ago I was engaged in a discussion with someone regarding the
relationship between the Germanic and other ancient religions. I suggested
that the Chinese Sky Father Ti is the Indo-European Sky Father we know as
'Týr'. The response was a 1200 word insult. I merely responded by posting
a link to contemporary academic literature on the subject. In another post
I mentioned a 21st century text written by an Anthropology Professor. The
subject of the book was "Archaeology and Identity in Iron Age Europe". The
owner of the so-called 'Forn-Sed' list explicitly stated these posts were
"off-topic". I immediately removed myself from the list. The list owner
comes with a reputation for intolerance and bigotry which I was in no mood
to deal with.
Unfortunately he is representative of a good many of the people who pretend
to be learned and trustworthy in an academic sense as regards Asatru. And
what is more unfortunate is these people are often accepted as authorities
by both Asatruar, and by government agencies. This last point is extremely
dangerous in that they actually have the ability to cause others to come
under investigation, etc.
What I find discouraging is that these people are simply unwilling to
discuss these issues honestly, and to address the information presented in
support of ideas such as I have forwarded. I don't know what all the facts
are regarding thse topics, but I do know that these people are doing their
best to enforce a de facto lie.
Aemon
>>From what I've read on the runes, *evrything* that goes beyond alternative
>>phonetic values and alternative stave shapes should be viewed with suspicion.
>>Deciding on magical intent is *always* a guess, even when the original author
>>can be interviewed in person.
>>
>
>That's why that one should stop and take a breath before pissing on Ralph Blum.
<pissing>Ralph Blum</pissing>
> There's another thread on runes going where his name came up, so this is
>apropo. I don't mind at all being a champion for Blum. Not that I think is
>book is "good", but because he's way too easy to trash.
Hes a castle made of sand.
>No, I don't necessarily put Blum's book in the same category as others written
>by heathen authors,
I would hope not.
> and no, I don't use the blank rune anymore.
>
>But what's the big deal? Using the runes for magic and divination as we do it
>today is almost a totally modern application. In my view, it's practically an
>act of blind faith to assume that Thorsson has got it right and Blum is full of
>crap.
Errr...who's claiming that Thorsson is completely right. If you'd been
around a.r.a. long enough you would be aware that Thorsson is held in
considerable suspicion because he has other religious agendas and
affiliations that, to him, are more important than Asatru.
That you don't already know this indicates, to me, your lack of
knowledge.
> Thorsson comes at it from a Germanic viewpoint and has done some
>research to back it up. That counts for something.
It counts for a lot, generally. I will go with good research over
wishful thinking anyday.
> But is there any evidence
>at all in written records of early heathens doing rune yoga, for example?
I doubt it.
>That's as much Thorsson's invention as the blank rune is Blum's invention.
Well, y'know, there's a lot that Asatru has in common with Hindu.
>We are confident that the early Germanics practiced divination with' symbols'
>carved on wooden slips. There is no evidence that the Elder Futhark, the
>Younger Futhark, or any of the rune rows we know of are the symbols which were
>the ones used. They could have been any combination of these, any set of other
>symbols, or pictures, or words, or painted colors, or blanks. We don't know.
>Blum had the balls to write a book about what he didn't know. So did Thorsson,
>so did Aswynn, and all of their imitators. Pick the one you like best, but own
>up to the fact that you're doing based upon personal preferance and little
>else.
There's always good hard research done by one's self.
Nik
Grimnir
> On 06 Feb 2003 17:51:44 GMT, tsdo...@aol.com (Tim Doughty) wrote:
>> But is there any evidence
>>at all in written records of early heathens doing rune yoga, for example?
>
> I doubt it.
>
There is Snorri's discussion of Odin in the Yingling Saga. Not quite Runic
Yoga, but sure does seem like some dude sittin' up on a mountain doin' the
OOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMM thing, or something similar.
> Nik
Aemon
wrote:
>Aemon wrote:
>
>> On 06 Feb 2003 17:51:44 GMT, tsdo...@aol.com (Tim Doughty) wrote:
>
>>> But is there any evidence
>>>at all in written records of early heathens doing rune yoga, for example?
>>
>> I doubt it.
>>
>
>There is Snorri's discussion of Odin in the Yingling Saga. Not quite Runic
>Yoga, but sure does seem like some dude sittin' up on a mountain doin' the
>OOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMM thing, or something similar.
Yeah well, I did say that I think that there's more than a passing
resemblance between Asatru and the Hindu religion.
Nik
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
"Aemon" <repub...@email.com> wrote in message
news:ff474v0bskopl03lj...@4ax.com...
And on to the topic of rune stances as exercise and meditation postures eg
algiz etc
FFF
Dirk
Grimnir
There's an interesting discussion in Tacitus about the Germani in Chapter
10:
"To the use of lots and auguries, they are addicted beyond all other
nations. Their method of divining by lots is exceedingly simple. From a
tree which bears fruit they cut a twig, and divide it into two small
pieces. These they distinguish by so many several marks, and throw them at
random and without order upon a white garment. Then the Priest of the
community, if for the public the lots are consulted, or the father of a
family about a private concern, after he has solemnly invoked the Gods,
with eyes lifted up to heaven, takes up every piece thrice, and having done
thus forms a judgment according to the marks before made. If the chances
have proved forbidding, they are no more consulted upon the same affair
during the same day: even when they are inviting, yet, for confirmation,
the faith of auguries too is tried."
I believe you may be familiar with Capra's _The Turning Point_, and his
discussion of the I-Ching(sp)? Perhaps there is something of the same
nature going on in what Tacitus describes.
I'll have to be honest, I am not one for consulting auguries, etc. I have
been known to flip a coin when stuck on make a boolean choice. I'm not
really trying to knock what someone else gets into. The Runes are a very
interesting subject from a purely 'scientific' approach. I believe
understanding what we can about the Runes can teach us a good deal about
the concerns of our ancestors who used them. That's one of the reasons I
am interested in historical accounts of magic. By knowing the kinds of
things people attempted to apply magic to, we learn what they felt they
could not control by 'ordinary' means. It goes much deeper, but that's a
pointer to what a purly scientific approach might expose through a study of
magic. The people who genuinely study the Runes may believe in things I
don't believe in, but they are also knowledgeable about things I wish I
knew more about.
I can't even name all the Runes, for shame on me.
Rorik
Michael Kouvatsos wrote in message <3E42F555...@no-spam.verizon.net>...
<shrug>
Grimnir seems to be happy with the character he has created as an acting-out
schoolboy with intellectual pretensions. If you're content with that image
too, more power to you. In any case, it's pretty clear that neither of you
have any serious interest in runes, so who cares? Like Tim D. says, you
should be equally happy with Blum, or Aswynn, or Thorsson, or King. Leave
scholarship to the scholars -- a vast array of album liners remain untapped!
:^},
rorik
Michael Kouvatsos
I have yet to see you make any commentary about the runes. Other
then King sucks (in a nutshell). But you have yet to explain how
this latin-named society that was created in 1995 is so important
to the study of Runes. What about the people who studied runes
before 95 .... they were all amatures? I suppose Egil
Skalagrimson was an Amature? I am in agreance with Grimnir, in
that the most important place to learn runes are the poems, the
sagas, the eddas, and actual examples on artifacts. What I see
from you, however, is just a string of insults. OOOOOH, you
belong to a society .... of what? People. Just like everyone who
isn't in the society. People. Societies mean jack shit.
Grimnir
> <shrug>
> Grimnir seems to be happy with the character he has created as an
> acting-out schoolboy with intellectual pretensions. If you're content
> with that image too, more power to you. In any case, it's pretty clear
> that neither of you have any serious interest in runes, so who cares?
> Like Tim D. says, you should be equally happy with Blum, or Aswynn,
> or Thorsson, or King. Leave scholarship to the scholars -- a vast array
> of album liners remain untapped!
>
> :^},
> rorik
So what is written here in Runic?
http://www.northcoast.com/~aboomer/bandb.jpg
Michael Kouvatsos
> Rorik wrote:
>
>
>
>><shrug>
>>Grimnir seems to be happy with the character he has created as an
>>acting-out schoolboy with intellectual pretensions. If you're content
>>with that image too, more power to you. In any case, it's pretty clear
>>that neither of you have any serious interest in runes, so who cares?
>>Like Tim D. says, you should be equally happy with Blum, or Aswynn,
>>or Thorsson, or King. Leave scholarship to the scholars -- a vast array
>>of album liners remain untapped!
>>
>>:^},
>>rorik
>
>
> So what is written here in Runic?
> http://www.northcoast.com/~aboomer/bandb.jpg
I could decifer that .... if I wasn't eating a bowl of porage at
the moment, but just to show I can .... (dont worry, I wont post
it, I want to see if Rorik can too)
Just for the record, I dislike the anglo saxon futhorc...
Grimnir
> Rorik wrote:
[Insults]
> I have yet to see you make any commentary about the runes. Other
> then King sucks (in a nutshell). But you have yet to explain how
> this latin-named society that was created in 1995 is so important
> to the study of Runes. What about the people who studied runes
> before 95 .... they were all amatures? I suppose Egil
> Skalagrimson was an Amature? I am in agreance with Grimnir, in
> that the most important place to learn runes are the poems, the
> sagas, the eddas, and actual examples on artifacts. What I see
> from you, however, is just a string of insults. OOOOOH, you
> belong to a society .... of what? People. Just like everyone who
> isn't in the society. People. Societies mean jack shit.
> ____
> In Frith,
> Michael Kouvatsos
I find it interesting that he did not bother to acknowledge your reference
to Page's book, nor my Reference to E. V. Gordon's work. I guess these
fall outside the realm of Magickal Society's opinion of 'scholarly' works.
I have to wonder how he manages to categorize your study of the Runes with
my lack of study of the same. I have acknowledged that I am weak in this
area. I've also described what I consider a realistic approach to the
subject. He has completely ignored the sources I mentioned when throwing
around his insinuations.
I can honestly say, I have not seen Rorik make any significant contributions
to the serious discussions either here or on his list. At best, he names
sources. But when confronted with a genuine request for content, he is
invariably silent. The reason I have not studied the Runes is because I am
working on establishing a sense of foundation which, by all accounts of
people such as J.P. Mallory, Peter S. Wells, Jaan Puhvel, Edgar Polome,
Mircea Eliade, Malcolm Todd, Victor Mair, Elizabeth W. Barber, and etc., is
a very difficult and elusive goal.
The recent discoveries in Archaeology have truly upset the mid-20th Century
weltanshauung. I asked a very simple question, and Rorik seemed completely
unable to address it. Where the vast majority of Germani in Northern
Europe in the second century BCE? And the follow-on seemed equally beyond
his knowledge. What evidence is there to place a hypothetical Germanic
Urheimat in any give geographical region?
As recently as 2 months ago, I took it to be a foregone conclusion that the
Germani were living in Northern Europe from as early as 700 BCE. When I
honestly assessed my reasons for holding that opinion, and contrasted it
with the alternatives, I came to realize that I don't have any good reason
to favor the Germanic Urheimat in Germania. If he really is as well
informed as he pretends, then is must really be a selfish and arrogant twit
not to share what he knows.
I do all I can to share information. Sometimes I'm reserved about making
certain sources known because I don't want to call adverse attention ot
ongoing research. Beyond that, I really try to share everything I find
which is of interest. And I believe I've shared a lot. Perhaps the people
of the Tarim Basin were not connected with the Germani in the past 4000
years. Nonetheless, they are clearly related. The speculations and
opinions I've been forwarding regarding climate models for central Eurasia
seem to have been ahead of the main body of researchers who are now
beginning to rethink these issues. I could really use some positive
feedback from people who know this subject. All I tend to get are
injunctions from moderators against presenting information that is
'off-topic', and insults from most directions.
I'm happy to say some people who used to lay into me, have now come to
realize that things aren't nearly as cut and dried as they once appeared.
Grimnir
I have no idea, but if you figure it out: hattons at speakeasy dot net.
Rorik
Bravo! <clapping hands in delight>
As I've often noted, I come here to be entertained, and so far you're doing
quite well! I mean, I know irony is probably beyond you. but really --
think about it! Here we have a thread that started out with some newby
asking for information on Asatru and being referred to a bunch of
occult-shop paperbacks, and now it's come down to a couple of unread,
uninformed amateurs dissing a scholarly society that neither one of them
ever heard of before! And to think, some say anti-intellectualism is dead!
But yes, by all means, do carry on about what you have learned from your
"original research" into Egils saga! This is heady stuff!
ROFL!!
rorik
Heidi Graw
>"Rorik" <ro...@yolo.com> wrote in message
news:WXV0a.104$n5...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
(snip)
>Rorik wrote:
> As I've often noted, I come here to be entertained,
So...you're not here to contribute anything contructive to the discussions?
You just want to be entertained. That's too bad, Rorik. A.r.a is about the
only open and unmoderated forum where anyone who has an interest can get
their first glimpse into Asatru. We all might try a bit harder to
demonstrate to lurkers that Asatru is indeed a community of intelligent
people who are serious about advancing their studies, share their ideas and
perhaps enlighten one another.
Now, since you claim to be so smart, perhaps you can add a little something
to the thread titled "Story Chronology." In the Hymir Poem, is Egil the
peasant or is that a reference to a king or some other noble man? What about
the Egil of the Volund Saga? A Prince? I've come across information which
claims the Egil in the Hymir Poem is a sea-giant. Have you any thoughts of
your own you could add? I'd appreciate it.
Thanks, ;-)
Heidi
Grimnir
>
>>"Rorik" <ro...@yolo.com> wrote in message
> news:WXV0a.104$n5...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> (snip)
>
>>Rorik wrote:
>> As I've often noted, I come here to be entertained,
>
> So...you're not here to contribute anything contructive to the
> discussions? You just want to be entertained.
That is pretty much the definition of a Troll. I'd say Rorik has some
integrity issues he would do well to ammend. I think Michael hit the nail
on the head when he pointed out that Rorik's Magical Society is just a
group of _people_, just like the _people_ on a.r.a. Perhaps a bit of
mutual respect would get Rorik a lot further than his arrogant
condescension.
As I've always said: Humility is very important. You know how I know that?
I know everything! ;-)
> Heidi
Grimnir
Did you get it? If I didn't have this huge stack of books, I might give it
a shot. I've never found an interpretation of those inscriptions. Ian has
his feet planted firmly on either side of the Heathen/Christian line. I
take it he likes the Christian music, or something. I doubt there is a
directly religious message there, but I'd be interested to know. If you
want to challenge *me* to get it myself, that would certainly be fair after
all the in-your-face I gave you by posting in Old Norse. I can't say I
will be able to work on it anytime soon, however.
Michael Kouvatsos
<snip>
> I do all I can to share information....And I believe
> I've shared a lot.
> who know this subject.
I try to read most of what you post, and once in a while make an
obviously uneducated reply or two ... you see, whereas you're
weak in the study of runes, I'm braindead when it comes to
geography and archiology %} But, you are correct; you have
shared a lot, and I dare-say without your posts, this newsgroup
would be hard pressed to have new topics.
Grimnir
> Grimnir wrote:
> <snip>
>> I do all I can to share information....And I believe
> > I've shared a lot.
> > I could really use some positive feedback from people
> > who know this subject.
>
> I try to read most of what you post, and once in a while make an
> obviously uneducated reply or two ... you see, whereas you're
> weak in the study of runes, I'm braindead when it comes to
> geography and archiology %}
To be honest, I find archaeology to be rather boring reading when to comes
to really analysing the data of what kind of pots were found at a certain
location with a certain kind of etching. The Scythian gold, and related
meterial is much more interesting. What I really want is a big database
that would allow me to pull up data accoring to attributes such as where
the object was found, and what period it was attributed to. Pictures speak
to me much more effectively than do words.
Oh, and I hate the way archeologist use terms such as 'neolithic', 'bronze
age' etc. The terms are meaningful when used in certain contexts, but can
be very misleading. For example, suppose someone found a 'stone aged'
population living on some remote island in the Pacific. The tools these
people threw in the trash yesterda would be classified as 'neolithic'. But
now you've got National Geographic with satellite communications, and
spaceage cameras taking tittie shots of the 'stone age' people. Is it
still a stone age culture?
Or try to figure out whether the Neolithic complex of the Elbe valey is
contemporary with the Iron age complex of Anatolia. It can really get
confusing.
On geography, I bought a map of the world about 15 years ago, and I've had
it on my wall ever since. I also have a fairly decent globe. If there is
any investment in learning materials a person should have on hand a globe
is it.
Don't forget about http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/
This can be a real b!tch as well. The names of places change over time, and
the borders move. People often talk about rivers what aren't named on the
maps I have on hand.
> But, you are correct; you have
> shared a lot, and I dare-say without your posts, this newsgroup
> would be hard pressed to have new topics.
What are you talking about? I didn't introduce the topic of Nik's fluff
bunny undies! :-) I'm not the only one to contribute.
____
> In Frith,
> Michael Kouvatsos
--
Grimnir
What do you know about this?
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/23erils2/Jutehorn.GIF
Rorik
Heidi Graw wrote:
>
>>"Rorik" <ro...@yolo.com> wrote in message
> news:WXV0a.104$n5...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> (snip)
>
>>Rorik wrote:
>> As I've often noted, I come here to be entertained,
>
> So...you're not here to contribute anything contructive to the
> discussions? You just want to be entertained.
>That is pretty much the definition of a Troll. I'd say Rorik has some
>integrity issues he would do well to ammend. I think Michael hit the nail
>on the head when he pointed out that Rorik's Magical Society is just a
>group of _people_, just like the _people_ on a.r.a. Perhaps a bit of
>mutual respect would get Rorik a lot further than his arrogant
>condescension.
Stop it! You guys are cracking me up!
Wheee . . . <pauses to catch breath, still holding sides from peals of
laughter>
So, let's see . . . a guy who just a few days ago was proven to be a liar on
this very newsgroup now proclaims others have "integrity issues" because
they find him to be entertaining? Come on -- it just doesn't get any better
than that!
As for not entering into serious discussions with you, what's to discuss?
Do you think the North Etruscan theory survived Mees' critique? What is the
language of the Maeshowe inscriptions? Do you agree with Elliot or with
Barnes on the proper subject of runic inquiry? It's quite easy to pat
yourselves on your backs for your collective ignorance, while dismissing my
"references" as beneath your notice. The point you overlook, however, is
that if you ever buckled down and did the hard work of following up on those
references, you would actually be able to participate in an intelligent
discussion of these topics -- which as things now stand, you can't.
But what the hey, there's still plenty to be said about the comparative
significance to Asatru of Plant's Immigrant Boat Song versus Belafonte's
Banana Boat Song -- just pull out those album liners and everybody sing
along! LOL!
regards,
rorik
Heidi Graw
>"Grimnir" <valf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:M9WdnckXjoh...@speakeasy.net...
(snip)
>
> As I've always said: Humility is very important. You know how I know
that?
> I know everything! ;-)
LOL....Oh sure... :-) You know what I really miss? *Class*...it's pretty
difficult to live in a classless society. No-one has any class! And if I
wanted to act classy, I risk getting ridiculed. And look at what is pawned
off on us to be that classy society...rich people who have no morals and/or
good manners...the movie stars, politicians and CEO's! I've met peasants
who act more classy than most those wealthy and high society folk. <sigh>
I had a good chuckle at my Vedic Horoscope. It claims I'm of that Brahamin
class...a first class lady! The Siddha yoga that applies to me is of that
perfected actualized type. I'm that inspired sage...a great saint!!!!
Now....to live up to that kind of potential....sheez!
Oh well...I have to make do with my Kshatria hubby...a level *below* mine.
... a second class, though regal military type...auspicious and blessed. No
wonder he cedes to my good advice in *all* things!
You really should try out that Vedic horoscope...just for fun! I've been
trying to convince my hubby that he is indeed regal and should try not to
behave too much like a thrall. He's not living up to his potential!!! Stop
lumbering around on his knuckles, but walk tall and straight! Man...do I
have my work cut out for me! Thank goodness Bill has a sense of humour! I
really don't think anyone else could put up with the likes of me. Heck, I
even have barbarians arriving at my hall all dressed up, slick, neat and
trim....They know if they want to bask in my presence they have to look
half-way human...at least that! But what can I expect in the Canadian
wilderness!!! Animals...all animals...even the bi-peds. What was my Dad
thinking when he put us here!!! ;-)
Take care,
Heidi <...an animal trainer among her many other jobs. ;-)
bowman
> now it's come down to a couple of unread,
> uninformed amateurs dissing a scholarly society that neither one of them
> ever heard of before!
I don't have a dog in this fight, but just out of curiousity is the
scholarly society of which you speak the same as the one that had the web
page with links to a couple of newletters in 1996, and no activity
thereafter?
bowman
> What is the language of the Maeshowe inscriptions?
"Thorni f*cked. Helgi carved"
"Ingigerth is the most beautiful of all women"
Um, early Compton?
Grimnir
> Grimnir wrote in message ...
> Heidi Graw wrote:
>
>>
>>>"Rorik" <ro...@yolo.com> wrote in message
>> news:WXV0a.104$n5...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
>> (snip)
>>
>>>Rorik wrote:
>>> As I've often noted, I come here to be entertained,
>>
>> So...you're not here to contribute anything contructive to the
>> discussions? You just want to be entertained.
>
>>That is pretty much the definition of a Troll. I'd say Rorik has some
>>integrity issues he would do well to ammend. I think Michael hit the nail
>>on the head when he pointed out that Rorik's Magical Society is just a
>>group of _people_, just like the _people_ on a.r.a. Perhaps a bit of
>>mutual respect would get Rorik a lot further than his arrogant
>>condescension.
>
> Stop it! You guys are cracking me up!
> Wheee . . . <pauses to catch breath, still holding sides from peals of
> laughter>
>
> So, let's see . . . a guy who just a few days ago was proven to be a liar
> on this very newsgroup now proclaims others have "integrity issues"
> because
> they find him to be entertaining? Come on -- it just doesn't get any
> better than that!
I was never proven to be a liar. You posted a message that I had originally
posted to your Asatru Studies list, and claimed it was the offense that got
me put on moderation. That proves nothing but that you are petty beyond
belief.
> As for not entering into serious discussions with you, what's to discuss?
> Do you think the North Etruscan theory survived Mees' critique? What is
> the
> language of the Maeshowe inscriptions?
Do you, perchance mean Maes Howe? Quite an interesteding structure. I'm at
least as interested in who built it as I am in who Thorni fucked.
> Do you agree with Elliot or with Barnes on the proper subject of
> runic inquiry?
I'm not sure what your point is. There have been several discussions on
issues such as the possible Etruscan origins of the Runes. I don't recall
any input from you.
> It's quite easy to pat
> yourselves on your backs for your collective ignorance, while dismissing
> my "references" as beneath your notice.
Liar! I did no such thing. The most derogatory comment I made about your
references - if you are referring to the Societas Magica of which you are a
member - was that I tend to steer clear of that section of the bookstore.
The more serious comment I made regarding the subject was:
***************************************************************
IMO, any and all worthy [I should have said comprehensive] work on the Runes
will make extensive use of the historical Rune Poems. It will also involve
a careful study of ancient alphebets with a view toward identifying the
best candidates for having influenced the formation of Runic.
I believe SEF did some fairly good work in this regard. Though I will
acknowledge I have not focused on the Runes. I don't believe I have a
sufficient background to effectively analyse the Rune Poems in their
original form.
[NOTE WELL]
If Rorik's gang are taking this kind of approach to studying the Runes, then
their work may be of merit.
If I were to undertake a study of the Runes at this point I would begin with
Page's book. I would also review the work of Gordon. I would then work
through the Rune Poems with as many good dictionaries of the relevant
languages as I could get my hands on.
**************************************************************************
So for you to say I dismissed your references is simply a lie. Or I could
take the more generous and respectful stance I normally do in such a
situation and suggest that you might be mistaken.
Trust me. It wasn't the "Societas Magica" I was insulting and deriding, it
was _you_.
> The point you overlook, however, is
> that if you ever buckled down and did the hard work of following up on
> those references, you would actually be able to participate in an
> intelligent discussion of these topics -- which as things now stand, you
> can't.
Do you have any idea how pathetically obnoxious that statement sounds? I am
focussed on a different area of research. I do work hard at what I'm
investigating. I believe it's extremely presumptuous of you do proclaim
that anybody who has a serious interest in the Runes is a member of your
Societas Magica. I suspect there are people who are seriously interested
in the Runes who have never heard of it for one reason or another. It's a
big world Rorik. For you to proclaim that of the over 6,000,000,000 people
on this planet, the only ones who have a serious interest in the Runes are
members of the Societas Magica, is silly.
> But what the hey, there's still plenty to be said about the comparative
> significance to Asatru of Plant's Immigrant Boat Song versus Belafonte's
> Banana Boat Song -- just pull out those album liners and everybody sing
> along! LOL!
I believe a better comparison there would have been D'yer Mak'er. No matter:
California sunlight, sweet Calcutta rain Honolulu starbright
the song remains the same.
> regards,
> rorik
Do what thou wilt.
Michael Kouvatsos
It says:
ek hlewagastir : holtijar : horna : tawido
which, if my LIMITED languages skills are correct...
"I am Hlewagastir. Holtijar, the horn, made.
--
Grimnir
>
>>"Grimnir" <valf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:M9WdnckXjoh...@speakeasy.net...
> (snip)
>>
>> As I've always said: Humility is very important. You know how I know
> that?
>> I know everything! ;-)
>
> LOL....Oh sure... :-) You know what I really miss? *Class*...it's
> pretty
> difficult to live in a classless society. No-one has any class! And if I
> wanted to act classy, I risk getting ridiculed. And look at what is
> pawned off on us to be that classy society...rich people who have no
> morals and/or
> good manners...the movie stars, politicians and CEO's! I've met peasants
> who act more classy than most those wealthy and high society folk. <sigh>
There is a rather funny, but insightful book, written Paul Fussell called
_Class_. In his model a school teacher with a modest income can outclass a
nuvo riche CEO worth billions.
> I had a good chuckle at my Vedic Horoscope. It claims I'm of that
> Brahamin
> class...a first class lady! The Siddha yoga that applies to me is of
> that
> perfected actualized type. I'm that inspired sage...a great saint!!!!
> Now....to live up to that kind of potential....sheez!
Aeton
> Oh well...I have to make do with my Kshatria hubby...a level *below* mine.
> ... a second class, though regal military type...auspicious and blessed.
> No wonder he cedes to my good advice in *all* things!
Charle
> Animals...all animals...even the bi-peds. What was my Dad
> thinking when he put us here!!! ;-)
Perhaps the question assumes more than it should? ;-)
> Take care,
> Heidi <...an animal trainer among her many other jobs. ;-)
Unfortunately there really is no refuge for the likes of us.
Rorik
Rorik wrote:
Could be; I've never been to the web site. Newsletters come out fairly
regularly, allthough most communication is by e-mail. Members of the
Societas have been getting together annually for nine years now, to put on
presentations at the International Medieval Congress. Again, my point in
bringing this up was simply to note that a person who has never heard of
this group should not be holding himself out as qualified to say anything at
all on current scholarly studies in the field of magic.
regards,
rorik
Rorik
>> The point you overlook, however, is
>> that if you ever buckled down and did the hard work of following up on
>> those references, you would actually be able to participate in an
>> intelligent discussion of these topics -- which as things now stand, you
>> can't.
>Do you have any idea how pathetically obnoxious that statement sounds? I am
>focussed on a different area of research. I do work hard at what I'm
>investigating.
I understand that your research into album liners takes up all your time.
However, you might consider the depth of your ignorance outside that
specialty the next time you feel like flinging your snide ad hominems into a
thread such as the one on runes.
>I believe it's extremely presumptuous of you do proclaim
>that anybody who has a serious interest in the Runes is a member of your
>Societas Magica.
You have serious reading comprehension problems, don't you? What I said was
anyone with a serious *scholarly* interest in the subject (which obviously
excludes you at the outset) would at least have heard of the Societas.
>For you to proclaim that of the over 6,000,000,000 people
>on this planet, the only ones who have a serious interest in the Runes are
>members of the Societas Magica, is silly.
It's hard to say whether you respond in this way because you know you are
unable to reply to the point I actually made, or if you are just so mentally
sloppy you don't notice gradations in words and meanings. In any case, we
agree that there's something very silly going on here.
regards,
rorik
Grimnir
> Grimnir wrote in message ...
>>Rorik wrote:
>
>>> The point you overlook, however, is
>>> that if you ever buckled down and did the hard work of following up on
>>> those references, you would actually be able to participate in an
>>> intelligent discussion of these topics -- which as things now stand, you
>>> can't.
>
>>Do you have any idea how pathetically obnoxious that statement sounds? I
>>am
>>focussed on a different area of research. I do work hard at what I'm
>>investigating.
>
> I understand that your research into album liners takes up all your time.
> However, you might consider the depth of your ignorance outside that
> specialty the next time you feel like flinging your snide ad hominems into
> a thread such as the one on runes.
It was return fire.
>>I believe it's extremely presumptuous of you do proclaim
>>that anybody who has a serious interest in the Runes is a member of your
>>Societas Magica.
>
> You have serious reading comprehension problems, don't you? What I said
> was anyone with a serious *scholarly* interest in the subject (which
> obviously excludes you at the outset) would at least have heard of the
> Societas.
>
>>For you to proclaim that of the over 6,000,000,000 people
>>on this planet, the only ones who have a serious interest in the Runes are
>>members of the Societas Magica, is silly.
>
> It's hard to say whether you respond in this way because you know you are
> unable to reply to the point I actually made, or if you are just so
> mentally
> sloppy you don't notice gradations in words and meanings. In any case, we
> agree that there's something very silly going on here.
>
> regards,
> rorik
See Mallory's _In Search of the Indo-Europeans_, Plate #16.
Grimnir
> Grimnir wrote:
>> Michael Kouvatsos wrote:
>> What do you know about this?
>>
>> http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/23erils2/Jutehorn.GIF
>
> It says:
>
> ek hlewagastir : holtijar : horna : tawido
>
> which, if my LIMITED languages skills are correct...
>
> "I am Hlewagastir. Holtijar, the horn, made.
>
Hey good work. I see you got the other as well. I'm willing to let the
other issues drop if the other guy is. But from what I've seen, you are the
current Rune Master!
What do you know about _The Book of Taliesyn_?
Greg Shetler
were erected in heathen times. There was the judgement circle, and
there were frithsteads, and there was the Thing, and various other
spaces set aside by staking them out with hazel rods and string as
places of no weapons - not all of them considered holy. Not all holy
spaces are so dedicated to peace, either - as you noted regarding
Valhalla. Similarly, the space created for holmgang by staking it out
with hazel rods was considered sacred, as well as protected by law - but
it certainly wasn't dedicated to peace!
It's very educational to read through the Sagas of the Icelanders paying
special attention to mention of sacred or special spaces... not at all
what some would have us believe :)
So - you do with your sacred space whatever you want to do with it. If
it's dedicated to peace, then don't put weapons in it. If it's not so
dedicated, then I would think keeping weapons close to hand to be a good
idea :)
Dux
Michael Kouvatsos wrote:
> Grimnir wrote:
>
>> bowman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Grimnir wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Nope. That counts as a nutcase even in the USA.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know if I'd go that far. I think I've got one buried under the
>>> books, magazines, CD-R's, radios, kleenex and other shit on my desk.
>>> Horizontal surfaces collect stuff, and I have no reason to maintain a
>>> kid-safe environment.
>>
>>
>>
>> In that case, I think it becomes a question of whether the f'n thing's
>> loaded and off safety.
>>
>>
>>
>
> My room is decorated with knives. I've got at least one on ever wall.
> Infact, I have two right above my computer monitor within easy reach
> should I stand up. ;) But I'm not the best model of sanity... My
> girfriend will attest to that.
>
> I've got a question, btw; Lets say hypothetically, I set up a room to be
> my "hof" so to speak. Nothing but an altar, and ritual tools (sacred
> sledge hammer, elagant wine glass, arm ring, etc). Now ... Would it be
> "wrong" to have the room decorated with knives? I know hofs are
> traditionally kept free of weapons, but mind you, Valhalla is decorated
> with swords; infact, they are used to provide light. The "Torches of
> Valhalla." On the other hand, Valhalla is not a hof, but a hall. Does
> anyone else have or have thought of having their sacred enclosure
> decorated with weapons?
> btw, I KNOW I'll have a hammer pendant hanging in the center of each
> wall...
DaRC
> The Runes are a very
> interesting subject from a purely 'scientific' approach. I believe
> understanding what we can about the Runes can teach us a good deal about
> the concerns of our ancestors who used them. That's one of the reasons I
> am interested in historical accounts of magic. By knowing the kinds of
> things people attempted to apply magic to, we learn what they felt they
> could not control by 'ordinary' means. It goes much deeper, but that's a
> pointer to what a purly scientific approach might expose through a study of
> magic
<snip>.
I may have mentioned this, but have you read 'The Real Middle-Earth'
by Brian Bates?
The book is about the Northern tribes mind-set much of it about hwo
magic imbued their lives.
Cheers, Dave.
Grimnir
> Um - there's not really good solid evidence that temples as buildings
> were erected in heathen times. There was the judgement circle, and
> there were frithsteads, and there was the Thing, and various other
> spaces set aside by staking them out with hazel rods and string as
> places of no weapons - not all of them considered holy. Not all holy
> spaces are so dedicated to peace, either - as you noted regarding
> Valhalla. Similarly, the space created for holmgang by staking it out
> with hazel rods was considered sacred, as well as protected by law - but
> it certainly wasn't dedicated to peace!
>
> It's very educational to read through the Sagas of the Icelanders paying
> special attention to mention of sacred or special spaces... not at all
> what some would have us believe :)
>
> So - you do with your sacred space whatever you want to do with it. If
> it's dedicated to peace, then don't put weapons in it. If it's not so
> dedicated, then I would think keeping weapons close to hand to be a good
> idea :)
>
> Dux
>
I find this interesting. I need to find more time to read the Sags, and
other material from the early historical Germanic era. What little I have
read from the Sagas was very enlightening.
I find what you say about sacred ground consistent with what Tacitus says.
That is, the Germani believed the Gods were too mighty to be held within
walls. Also of interest is his statement that the Germani did not make
images of our Gods. I know this isn't completely true of the Viking era,
but there doesn't seem to be a great wealth of statuary from the Roman era
depicting the Gods.
bowman
> Also of interest is his statement that the Germani did not make
> images of our Gods. I know this isn't completely true of the Viking era,
> but there doesn't seem to be a great wealth of statuary from the Roman era
> depicting the Gods.
Makes you wonder if Adam of Bremen's description of Uppsala, with Freyr
having pride of place, represents a devolution after contact with another
culture with a heritage of idol making.
Grimnir
Are you thinking of the plane where the Twelve met with Odin in the earliest
of times?
Rune Bjørnsen
Or perhaps we where a bit different up here than those soft southerners
those Italians came in contact with ;-)
Rune