Don't bears have sinews?

[Darwin123]

Gleipner was made of things that no longer exist in this world.
This includes "beard of woman" and "footfall of cats". However, it
also contains "sinew of bear."
Bears have sinews. So why is it on the list of ingredients for
Gleipner?
Someone suggested the the "sinew of a bear" means nerves or
sensibilities. However, don't bears have nerves? And what is this
"sensibility" ?-)

[1X2Willows]

Makes me wonder if this could refer to times so far back in history that
possession of bear sinews was a "normal" thing for the regular household.

No idea but they're probably superior to elk sinews and such, which became
more popular after human-bear encounters grew thin in Scandinavia et al.

Leaning out the window... yes

[drose...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:44:29 PM UTC-5, 1X2Willows wrote:

> Makes me wonder if this could refer to times so far back in history that
> possession of bear sinews was a "normal" thing for the regular household.
>
> No idea but they're probably superior to elk sinews and such, which became
> more popular after human-bear encounters grew thin in Scandinavia et al.

Why does a household need animal sinews at all?

>
> Leaning out the window... yes

Here is a speculation.
Maybe bear sinews were part of a ritual for whatever cult worshiped Tyre. The others links are jokes. However, bear sinews were the real deal. Maybe it was part of an initiation stunt. The worshiper had to walk with his feet bound together by bear sinews.
Which brings up another question: Why does Vidar use a boot to beat Fenris?
Maybe the boot became the new ritual. That is, initiates were expected to hop around with both feet confined in a boot. So Tyre, the old ritual, was supplanted by his son Vidar, the new ritual. Sinews were replaced by boots.
I leaned out the window and fell out!

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

drose...@yahoo.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:44:29 PM UTC-5, 1X2Willows wrote:
>
> > Makes me wonder if this could refer to times so far back in history that
> > possession of bear sinews was a "normal" thing for the regular household.
> >
> > No idea but they're probably superior to elk sinews and such, which became
> > more popular after human-bear encounters grew thin in Scandinavia et al.
> Why does a household need animal sinews at all?
> >
> > Leaning out the window... yes
> Here is a speculation.
> Maybe bear sinews were part of a ritual for whatever cult worshiped Tyre. The others links are jokes. However, bear sinews were the real deal. Maybe it was part of an initiation stunt. The worshiper had to walk with his feet bound together by bear sinews.
> Which brings up another question: Why does Vidar use a boot to beat Fenris?

Cause "Only the Boots made from the Skin of the GREAT PIG, sewn especially for that purpose", can Defeat Fenris!
Rev 11:3, isn't until Man tries to Murder the Beast, Satan gets Covenant against Man!

[Doug Freyburger]

drose...@yahoo.com wrote:

> 1X2Willows wrote:
>
>> No idea but they're probably superior to elk sinews and such, which became
>> more popular after human-bear encounters grew thin in Scandinavia et al.
>
> Why does a household need animal sinews at all?

Best spring material known until spring steel became plentiful after the
Bessemer process was invented.

The problem with bear sinew is strands of it are short and that makes it
inpractical for making ropes.

[scottl...@ix.netcom.com]

On Feb 29, 8:23 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The problem with bear sinew is strands of it are short and that makes it
> inpractical for making ropes.

That might be the answer. With linguistic drift, it may be that a
millenium ago "sinew" meant more than just "sinew." Perhaps it mean
"sinew long enough to be useful for practical applications." Or just
"sinew that's useful."

They might have noticed that bear sinew was all kinds of strong, but
being too short to be useful, that might have been seen as sort of a
joke by the gods, or just a cruel irony of nature.

[drose...@yahoo.com]

So Gleipner was made partly from the LONG sinews of bears. The short sinews were left on the bear.
I like that answer. I consider my question answered. Thank you!
Maybe if I tell the story it would sound like this:
"The dwarves made Gleipner out of the LONG sinews of a bear, honor among thieves, free trade and military intelligence."
Or maybe I

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

Pig's however had "Impenetrable Armor!
"Thick Skinned", lil "Wild BORES" who love Crashing the Party!
as you hunt the bore to make a new Brush for your Vanity.
The PIG, is the Wild Card born of "The LAW"!
The Law Givers, "ONLY", go off when NECESSARY!
Beat the Dumb Ox all you want, it rebels, because the wheel is broken!
Get off your ass and fix the wheel, and we can all continue the ride.
But the "GODS" are to Good, to get their feet dirty with Mud, like some Primate
BEAST!

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

"scottl...@ix.netcom.com" wrote:

> On Feb 29, 8:23 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem with bear sinew is strands of it are short and that makes it
> > inpractical for making ropes.
>
> That might be the answer. With linguistic drift, it may be that a
> millenium ago "sinew" meant more than just "sinew." Perhaps it mean
> "sinew long enough to be useful for practical applications." Or just
> "sinew that's useful."

How about like the Lake, it meant the "Fiber" which binds the Meat together.

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

drose...@yahoo.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 8:55:59 PM UTC-5, scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> > On Feb 29, 8:23 am, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The problem with bear sinew is strands of it are short and that makes it
> > > inpractical for making ropes.
> >
> > That might be the answer. With linguistic drift, it may be that a
> > millenium ago "sinew" meant more than just "sinew." Perhaps it mean
> > "sinew long enough to be useful for practical applications." Or just
> > "sinew that's useful."
> >
> > They might have noticed that bear sinew was all kinds of strong, but
> > being too short to be useful, that might have been seen as sort of a
> > joke by the gods, or just a cruel irony of nature.
> So Gleipner was made partly from the LONG sinews of bears. The short sinews were left on the bear.
> I like that answer. I consider my question answered. Thank you!
> Maybe if I tell the story it would sound like this:
> "The dwarves made Gleipner out of the LONG sinews of a bear, honor among thieves, free trade and military intelligence."
> Or maybe I

Why Banshee are "Badb" of THE PEOPLE, not the Sovereign, or Church Militant!

[Doug Freyburger]

scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> They might have noticed that bear sinew was all kinds of strong, but
> being too short to be useful, that might have been seen as sort of a
> joke by the gods, or just a cruel irony of nature.

Consider the joke that Christians need to believe a dozen impossible
things before breakfast. It may be a joke aimed at any Christians in
the audience. Comparing this with the Lokasenna I'm certain that's
the case.

The Lokasenna is like several of the other poems of the Eddas that show
off the Lore knowledge of the composer. Each stanza pair is a summary
of a tale that the audience should have known. Some are still known
others are not. The fun part is the pairs of stanzas go back and forth
making jokes on the behalf of the Christians in the audience and the
Heathens in the audience mocking their theoretical sensibilities back
and forth.

Here's a way to view the Lokasenna that few have probably considered -
It's the wedding feast for Loki and Sigyn. They aren't invited guests
because they are the guests of honor. They go around table to table
joking with their guests like any of us have done at our own weddings.
When Thor arrives he used Mjollnir to bless them like any other wedding.
When Loki is bound it's by the bonds of matrimony. Sigyn then keeps him
on his best behavior but every so often he goes out with the boys
raising cane and that's when earthquakes happen.

Anyways, I think the chain that holds Fenris is a sort of counterpoint
to the chains that hold Loki. Made of ingredients that are an inside
joke and symbolic not literal.

[1X2Willows]

drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:44:29 PM UTC-5, 1X2Willows wrote:
>
>> Makes me wonder if this could refer to times so far back in history
>> that possession of bear sinews was a "normal" thing for the regular
>> household.
>>
>> No idea but they're probably superior to elk sinews and such, which
>> became more popular after human-bear encounters grew thin in
>> Scandinavia et al.
>
> Why does a household need animal sinews at all?

Weapons (bows), ties and laces superior to mere leather strips, later on
musical instruments (first harps and such).

> I leaned out the window and fell out!

heh ;)

[drose...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, March 1, 2012 11:41:19 AM UTC-5, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> scottl...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> > They might have noticed that bear sinew was all kinds of strong, but
> > being too short to be useful, that might have been seen as sort of a
> > joke by the gods, or just a cruel irony of nature.
>
> Consider the joke that Christians need to believe a dozen impossible
> things before breakfast. It may be a joke aimed at any Christians in
> the audience. Comparing this with the Lokasenna I'm certain that's
> the case.
>
> The Lokasenna is like several of the other poems of the Eddas that show
> off the Lore knowledge of the composer. Each stanza pair is a summary
> of a tale that the audience should have known. Some are still known
> others are not. The fun part is the pairs of stanzas go back and forth
> making jokes on the behalf of the Christians in the audience and the
> Heathens in the audience mocking their theoretical sensibilities back
> and forth.

What I read was that the Flyting was an actual ritual used to officially declare war. The one declaring war, a guest, would insult the people that he was declaring war on. The targets of these jests would insult back. Other people at the party would be listening. The jests would sometimes be in song. They were often funny.
This was a serious ritual. It probably made sense in the context of what was going on. It sounds strange, but some modern day customs seem equally strange.
Sometimes choosing sides on the basis of the insults. A really good insult implies intelligence. One wants to be on the side of intelligent people, because they may win. Or the insult may be very true. It may be the real reason that the war is being declared. It may remind listeners of a very real scandal, that everyone but the victim is trying to forget.
My conjecture is that some of these are based on real events. Maybe the writer of "Loki's Flyting" had to deliver a Flyting or two to his enemy. Maybe Snorri had to really deliver a marriage proposal to a princess, just like Skirmir had to deliver a marriage proposal to Gerda.
So I doubt that "Loki's Flyting" was really mocking Christians. In fact, it have been written by a Christian mocking heathens. It is the god's who are being insulted, after all. Probably not.
I get the impression that practically everything in the Northern world had to be delivered as either song or poetry. Maybe a little dance, too. Not everyone was literate. Songs and poems are easier to remember than prose. Also, a lot of these people were suspicious of the written word. Remember, runes had magic powers. Sami and other nomadic people resisted the written word.

>
> Here's a way to view the Lokasenna that few have probably considered -
> It's the wedding feast for Loki and Sigyn. They aren't invited guests
> because they are the guests of honor. They go around table to table
> joking with their guests like any of us have done at our own weddings.
> When Thor arrives he used Mjollnir to bless them like any other wedding.
> When Loki is bound it's by the bonds of matrimony. Sigyn then keeps him
> on his best behavior but every so often he goes out with the boys
> raising cane and that's when earthquakes happen.

The true story of "Loki's Flyting" has finally surfaced.

>
> Anyways, I think the chain that holds Fenris is a sort of counterpoint
> to the chains that hold Loki. Made of ingredients that are an inside
> joke and symbolic not literal.

I think that the bounds of his children correspond to the bonds that trap Loki. When Ragnork comes, all the bounds of the earth are broken simultaneously. The guts that bind Loki, Gleipner, the Midgard Serpent (who strangely is his own chain) and Hel are broken.
One interpretation is that all these fasteners represent moral restraints. When Ragnork comes, all the moral restraints in the world will be broken at the same time. The natural world will be in upheaval. However, natures fury will be small compared to the social unrest that will be unleashed.
I agree the elements in the chain were placed there for humor. I just wanted to get the joke a little better, is all. Sometimes, the meaning of a joke can reveal something interesting about the people who make them.
Freud was wrong. I think joke interpretation is a lot more meaningful than dream interpretation. Dreams are usually about what is obvious when people are awake. Real denial, fear and dark urges are revealed in a person's jokes.

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

Castle Guards at Windsor Castle, Still Wear HATS, made of "BEAR Hair", to
symbolize the connection to the Bears, as well as the teachings of those
Weasels of the Ermine Cape!

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

Then Think Again!
Murder Yourself, so ROME, can RULE the Sheeple!
Return America to the Madness of King George and his Puritan Bible Thumpers!
Fuck the French Puritani, how dare they claim to have been there first!

[Doug Freyburger]

drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> So I doubt that "Loki's Flyting" was really mocking Christians.

It makes fun of their theoretical prudery throughout.. The problem is
all present would have known that Christians in court do not live by
those standards no matter their talk.

> In fact, it have been written by a Christian mocking heathens.

It makes fun of their theoretical sexual looseness throughout. The
problem is all present would have known that such claims are made up by
the Christians and they do not reflect how Heathens in court actually
lived.

> It is the god's who are being insulted, after all.

That's a very close minded reading. I get that people have historically
done close minded readings but it doesn't make any sense when teh
audience of the time was considered. The tales don't insult the gods
they insult the sensibilities of the people in the audience. And that
means it's written in terms of "all the world's a stage" no matter that
statement was made famous centuries later.

[drose...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, March 2, 2012 4:03:51 PM UTC-5, Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > It is the god's who are being insulted, after all.
>
> That's a very close minded reading. I get that people have historically
> done close minded readings but it doesn't make any sense when teh
> audience of the time was considered. The tales don't insult the gods
> they insult the sensibilities of the people in the audience. And that
> means it's written in terms of "all the world's a stage" no matter that
> statement was made famous centuries later.

You convinced me.
I knew that the Poetic Edda was written by Christians. Somehow, it didn't occur to me that it was meant to mock heathens. I guess my slip is showing.
It is interesting that a Christian would identify with Loki. So can I interpret this as a Christian declaration of "war" against the heathens?

[Doug Freyburger]

drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
>Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>> > It is the god's who are being insulted, after all.
>
>> That's a very close minded reading. I get that people have historically
>> done close minded readings but it doesn't make any sense when teh
>> audience of the time was considered. The tales don't insult the gods
>> they insult the sensibilities of the people in the audience. And that
>> means it's written in terms of "all the world's a stage" no matter that
>> statement was made famous centuries later.
>
> You convinced me.
> I knew that the Poetic Edda was written by Christians.

The oldest known copy of the Lokasenna was probably penned by a
Christian. That's not the same thing as saying it was composed by a
Christian nor is it the same thing as saying all of the poems were
written by Christians. To me it is clear that the writer of the
Lokasenna knew that nearly every audience would be mixed. And remember
that this thread started about the Volspa. The Volspa may parallel
Revelation in several ways but it is very heathen in outlook.

> Somehow, it didn't occur to me that it was meant to mock heathens.

It seems that it still doesn't occur to you that it is equally meant to
mock Christians. In every other stanza it goes back and forth mocking
one and the other, all the while giving brief summaries of stories that
do not have problematic meanings when inspected in terms of their
symbolism.

> It is interesting that a Christian would identify with Loki.

It's simple minded to be sure. Heathens who are anti-Loki seem to me to
be the ones still stuck in the simple minded "good or evil no ambiguity"
viewpoint and thus still not free of their Christian roots. They can't
yet process the ambiguity that pervades the Eddas.

It may be simple minded but it is most assuredly not a stupid strategy.
There's much more to it than being so ill informed about the lore they
don't know that Surt is the main enemy. Setting aside the fact that
Surt will eventually win and is therefore a stronger enemy than the
Christian's Devil thre's the fact that Surt is comparatively unambiguous
in driving for the destruction of the universe. Linking Loki with the
Devil focuses on their ambiguity. To the Christians amibuity itself
appears to be evil. Loki is unaligned and mostly uncontrolled. He has
Thor as a regular companion to partially keep him from going off half
cocked but it rarely works. Thor is there more to repair any damage and
to keep the other Aesir informed than to actually keep Loki from taking
risks.

Asatru is morally ambiguous. That causes people to think. In modern
practice this actually leads to less use of combat magic - Compare
against the endless "witch wars spelled with a b" that happen among the
Wiccans and eclectics. Christianity dislikes ambiguity so three's a PR
campaign against it. It's an intelligent and effective move.

> So can I interpret this as a Christian declaration of "war" against the
> heathens?

This as in either the Volspa or Lokasenna? I don't think so. One
mostly predates the arrival of the missionaries. The other assumes that
all audiences are mixed Christian and Heathen. Both are from a time
when Christianity was first acting as a self replicating virus but
beofre it had reached the majority necessary to start using brute force.

The Old Testament is filled with what happened when the Hebrews reached
a local majority. Religious wars galore. And yet Judaism is a folkish
heathen relidion in so many ways. History from after the New Testament
is filled with what happened when the Christians reached a local
majority. Inquestitions and Crusades and intersect religious wars
galore. The book is still open on times when Islam reaches local
majorities.

[drose...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, March 3, 2012 3:43:35 PM UTC-5, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >>
> >> > It is the god's who are being insulted, after all.
> >
> >> That's a very close minded reading. I get that people have historically
> >> done close minded readings but it doesn't make any sense when teh
> >> audience of the time was considered. The tales don't insult the gods
> >> they insult the sensibilities of the people in the audience. And that
> >> means it's written in terms of "all the world's a stage" no matter that
> >> statement was made famous centuries later.
> >
> > You convinced me.

When I wrote this, I misunderstood what you were saying.
In any case it has been a nice conversation.

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

YEP, and you as the Avatar of your Story, must Live Your Life!
You way of looking at it affects the world around you.
YOU are the Image of God Walking, after all!

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

Doug Freyburger wrote:

> drose...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >>
> >> > It is the god's who are being insulted, after all.
> >
> >> That's a very close minded reading. I get that people have historically
> >> done close minded readings but it doesn't make any sense when teh
> >> audience of the time was considered. The tales don't insult the gods
> >> they insult the sensibilities of the people in the audience. And that
> >> means it's written in terms of "all the world's a stage" no matter that
> >> statement was made famous centuries later.
> >
> > You convinced me.
> > I knew that the Poetic Edda was written by Christians.
>
> The oldest known copy of the Lokasenna was probably penned by a
> Christian.

Doesn't matter, Rome penned em all, that is why the world has the translations
and why so many fit sorta kinda Bible teachings to!
Well known fact "EASTER", is a Conversion of the Celebration of Estrus
dedicated to Caesar's Mother, and the 12 Days of Christmas was Rome's
Celebration of the Winter Solstice!!