Is the Media Bewitching ? (html format)
The DataRat
Ken T. Rice wrote:"A new television show is about to begin a season, 'Charmed' with
Alyssa Milano, Shanon Doherty and some other uh...er...'lady' whose name
escaped me. They portray three sisters who are witches, having inherited
supernatural powers from their mothers. During the preview, the
implication is their occult powers re-unite them and help them fend off an
attacker who would, it appears, try to rob and/or rape and/or kill them.
Additionally, a new move with Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock is
due out in theaters soon, 'Practical Magic', which also seems to present
witchcraft in a very favorable light (during the previews, the voice that
says the title has a very audible smile, like you're hearing 'Disney's
Little Mermaid Part II, Return to the Deep' or something like that. Like
it's real wholesome.Your commentary, Bro. Ratr, on an area on which we can agree (for
a change) would be most welcome."The Reformed Rodent replies:What can one say about a popular culture in devolution ?First the media foists acceptance of homosexuality onus. Now, witchcraft.Deuteronomy 18:10-11 says:"There shall not be found among you anyone ...whopractices witchcraft" (NASB).But, we've accepted murdering babies and acceptedsodomy, so why not witchcraft also ? This is "post-Christian America", afterall !It seems to the Genevan Rodent that the real questionis what comes after baby-killing, sodomy, and (now)witchcraft ? Allow Bro. Rat to make a prediction: It'llbe Satanism !No, not hardcore demon-possessed Satanism. Rather"nice Satanism" ( i.e., Satan as a practical principle oflife ...an anthropomorphic "Satan" who represents theprinciples of enlightened self-interest and benignhedonism -ala Anton LaVey ).THAT is how they've presented witchcraft, right ?Now, as for our Catholic-Protestant disputes:Someone once wrote ( and the Reformed Rodentdoesn't know who it was ):"The days when Protestants and Catholics were ateach other's throats was not the best of times. But atleast they knew what they believed !"In this post-modern world of absolute tolerance andall-inclusiveness, people ask -much like Pilate did-"What is truth ?". And, like Pilate, they're ready tokill anyone bringing 'em the truth. ( In the name of"tolerance", though ! )The DataRat
Candle Jack
>Deuteronomy 18:10-11 says,
>"There shall not be found among you anyone ...who practices
witchcraft" (NASB).
And yet look at the number of Christians, some of them quite devout,
who practice numerology and other forms of divination.
--
Regards,
Candle "Cursing the darkness cause candles is pricey" Jack
The DataRat
"...some of them quite devout, who practice numerology
and other forms of divination."
Sounds like a contradiction in terms to the Genevan
Rodent !
DR
Astalis
Candle Jack wrote:
> The DataRat wrote in message ...
> >Deuteronomy 18:10-11 says,
> >"There shall not be found among you anyone ...who practices
> witchcraft" (NASB).
>
> And yet look at the number of Christians, some of them quite devout,
> who practice numerology and other forms of divination.
Does it make going against what Scripture states any less
wrong when it's done by one who professes to be a follower
of Jesus Christ? Or, as Paul once stated, "Shall we sin that
grace may abound?" Certainly not on both counts.
The point? :-)
Astalis
--
"And yet there is a time
For everything that's under heaven.
A time to run, a time to stand and fight.
So in the face in cold despair,
No matter what seems right,
Remember darkness drives us to the light..."
**from Michael Card's "Under the Sun"**
-----------------------
astalis at epsi dot net
morning_light at juno dot com
ICQ! Num: 2453141#
-----------------------
Kevin T Rice
At least we are brothers in our mutual love of Christ and our
divinely given contempt of the zeitgeist.
In His Love,
Kevin
Kevin T Rice
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Candle Jack wrote:
> The DataRat wrote in message ...
> >Deuteronomy 18:10-11 says,
> >"There shall not be found among you anyone ...who practices
> witchcraft" (NASB).
>
> And yet look at the number of Christians, some of them quite devout,
> who practice numerology and other forms of divination.
That IS sobering. And yes, I have seen this.
Astalis
Christopher Adams wrote:
> > What can one say about a popular culture in devolution ?First the media foists
> > acceptance of homosexuality on us. Now, witchcraft. Deuteronomy 18:10-11 says: "There
> > shall not be found among you anyone ...who practices witchcraft" (NASB). But, we've
> > accepted murdering babies and accepted sodomy, so why not witchcraft also ? This is
> > "post-Christian America", afterall !
> >
> Not to be nasty or anything, Brother Rat, but it really kills you that you can't dictate to the rest
> of America (or the world) what they should be allowed to say, see, hear, and perhaps even think,
> doesn't it...?
Just as you can't really dictate on where he stands either.
It can't be one sided. By your thinking, if he can't dictate
on how he views the issue...then neither are you completely able
to dictate on how you view the issue...or how he should view the
issue.
But then, if I'm reading this thread right...it wasn't on how individuals
view the issues anyway...but rather on what God Himself
has stated and declared on those issues as stated within His
Word.
Perhaps it best to speak with the One who has the final say
on the matter rather than trying to silence those who are merely
repeating what was already stated....
Christopher Adams
> acceptance of homosexuality onus. Now, witchcraft. Deuteronomy 18:10-11 says: "There
> shall not be found among you anyone ...whopractices witchcraft" (NASB). But, we've
> accepted murdering babies and acceptedsodomy, so why not witchcraft also ? This is
> "post-Christian America", afterall !
>
Not to be nasty or anything, Brother Rat, but it really kills you that you can't dictate to the rest
of America (or the world) what they should be allowed to say, see, hear, and perhaps even think,
Let me, uh, clue you in. America is not now, nor has it ever been, a Christian country. This is not
a Christian planet. Christians make up less than thirty percent of the world's population. Besides,
Brother Rat, you probably know as well as I do that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and
variants of the same is really a complete mistranslation from the Hebrew, where the word is
"poisoner."
In the end, though, it doesn't matter. You cannot censor anyone's thoughts according to any lights
of yours, no matter where they derive from. I know it must really irk you to not be allowed to
dictate to the masses as you would like to do, but I guess that's just a terrible consequence of
living in a democracy, rather than a Christian theocracy.
I remain, always, a servant of the Lord and the Lady.
(Please note: This is posted from alt.religion.apologetics, but I am retaining the cross-post to
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic so as to ensure the attentions of our dear Brother Rat.)
--
Chris Adams
Mhac de Bhandia
*Magic Code*
MWI W++ S N PCE++/GR++/EG++
A a+ C G Q 666-- Y
Boy: Oxygen - running out!
Skinner: Yes, you should have thought of that *before* you made that paper aeroplane!
faranno dei cimiteri le loro cattedrali
e delle citta le vostre tombe.
Christopher Adams
> enlightened self-interest and benignhedonism -ala Anton LaVey ).
>
me clear something up for you.
Satanism is the LaVeyan religion, founded in 1966. You, Brother Rat, seem to have a fair grasp of
what that entails.
Diabolism is your so-called "hardcore demon-possessed Satanism." The term Satanism is wholly
incorrect when applied to actual Satan-worship. The correct term is diabolism, which is the
Christian heresy of actually worshipping, honouring, adoring, serving, et cetera ad nauseam, the
Devil, Satan.
Just a note. :)
I remain a servant of the Lord and the Lady,
GoldRush
Christopher Adams <ad...@comcen.com.au> wrote in article
<361D465B...@comcen.com.au>...
> > No, not hardcore demon-possessed Satanism. Rather"nice Satanism"
( i.e., Satan as a
> > practical principle oflife ...an anthropomorphic "Satan" who
represents theprinciples of
> > enlightened self-interest and benignhedonism -ala Anton LaVey ).
> >
> Oh, and yeah. Leaving aside the same issues of theocratic censorship as I
dealt with previously, let
> me clear something up for you.
>
> Satanism is the LaVeyan religion, founded in 1966. You, Brother Rat, seem
to have a fair grasp of
> what that entails.
>
> Diabolism is your so-called "hardcore demon-possessed Satanism." The term
Satanism is wholly
> incorrect when applied to actual Satan-worship. The correct term is
diabolism, which is the
> Christian heresy of actually worshipping, honouring, adoring, serving, et
cetera ad nauseam, the
> Devil, Satan.
>
> Just a note. :)
>
> I remain a servant of the Lord and the Lady,
>
> --
> Chris Adams
> Mhac de Bhandia
>
<snipped>
Mr. Adams,
Satanism and witchcraft is not appreciated by
the Christians covered with the blood of Christ
who participate on these NGs.
Be gone with you.
There are other forums for the like of you.
Go to your own kind.
Ronda Rush
Candle Jack
| and other forms of divination."
|
|Rodent !
No disagreement here. Of course many people profess to be devout. I
guess that devotion is, like many things, relative.
--
Regards,
Candle "Contains 30% less fat" Jack
Candle Jack
|Candle Jack wrote:
|> The DataRat wrote in message ...
|> >"There shall not be found among you anyone ...who practices
|> witchcraft" (NASB).
|>
devout,
|> who practice numerology and other forms of divination.
|
|wrong when it's done by one who professes to be a follower
|of Jesus Christ?
Of course not. I think you may have missed my point. I was merely
showing an element of hypocrisy prevalent amongst some groups of
Christians. Perhaps I should have said,"...some of then who profess
to be quite devout".
--
Regards,
Candle "Made with 100% vegetable oil shortening" Jack
Candle Jack
|Mr. Adams,
|Satanism and witchcraft is not appreciated by
|the Christians covered with the blood of Christ
|who participate on these NGs.
|Be gone with you.
|There are other forums for the like of you.
|Go to your own kind.
Satanism and Witchcraft(to a lesser degree) are very much a part of
Christianity. In TV terms I guess you could say they are spinoffs.
You don't find too many Buddhist Satanists.
--
Regards,
Candle "Edited for brevity" Jack
Rev. Frank
> GoldRush wrote:
> |Mr. Adams,
> |Satanism and witchcraft is not appreciated by
> |the Christians covered with the blood of Christ
> |who participate on these NGs.
> |Be gone with you.
> |There are other forums for the like of you.
> |Go to your own kind.
>
Candle Jack wrote:
> Satanism and Witchcraft(to a lesser degree) are very much a part of
> Christianity.
You mean apart from Christianity!
(Mat 16:23 KJV) But he{Jesus} turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee
behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not
the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
(Luke 4:8 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind
me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and
him only shalt thou serve.
--
Peace Be With You
Rev. Frank
Visit:
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/i/n/t/intmismin/index1.html
The DataRat
"Of course many people profess to be devout. I
guess that devotion is, like many things, relative."
We're all sinners. And only the Most High knows
with certainty who is of the Elect and who is not.
But, the Genevan Rodent would have a lot of trouble
considering someone regenerate who consulted
psychics and mediums. The Biblical injunction is
so plain. Difficult to see any wiggle room (exceptions,
mitigating circumstances, exigencies, etc.) on this
one. Maybe a new Christian...
Of course, perhaps someone hadn't noticed the
proscription in the Bible. This takes us to another
thought Bro. Rat has: Can't buy into the regeneration
of somebody who says they're "Christian" but
~doesn't~ know Scripture. Again, maybe a new
Christian. But anyone who has been born again for
even three or four years should have a good working
knowledge of what God's Word says. The Holy Spirit
would have sent them there to study.
Alot of weeds growing among the wheat.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"Not to be nasty or anything, Brother Rat, but it really kills
you that you can't dictate to the rest of America (or the world)
...doesn't it?"
No.
Everything is in God's hands. As Martin Luther once
wrote: "Even the Devil is God's Devil." On earth, the
Most High punishes the wicked with the consequences
of their own sin. The Reformed Rodent would ~never~
wish to stand in the way of God's providence.
You've got The DataRat confused with fundamentalists
-and more specifically- Kingdom Now Theologists.
Bro. Rat is Reformed. ( No, he didn't stop drinking recently !
"Reformed" as in The Reformation. )
While we believe in Calvin's Third Use of the Law, we
also believe in the sovereignty of God's providence.
The Lord had a covenant with the nation of Israel in
the Old Testament. But the covenant which followed
that was with people ...not a nation.
The United States was nominally Christian for most of
it's existence. For that it was blessed and allowed to
rise to become preeminent among nations. But the
New Covenant ISN'T with the U.S.A. Just as God
employed America's power for His purposes, God may
utilize it's weakness and dissolution in the same fashion.
Sure, the Reformed Rodent would like to see the U.S.
return to God. Don't look like it's going to happen,
though. The Creator of the Universe won't be any worse
off for that. Indeed, it no doubt fits precisely into His
Plan.
So, Bro. Rat watches in horror as the rate of violent
crime has ~quadrupled~ over the past 30 years. What
you may not understand is that he can recall a time when
one NEVER heard of anybody under the age of 13
committing premeditated murder. A day when 15 year
olds ~didn't~ kill their parents, then go to school to
shoot their teachers and classmates. A time when
"driveby shootings" were something you saw only on
the Untouchables television series. Etc. Etc.
Don't fear. You'll be allowed to continue in your
degenerate ways. Absolute freedom will triumph over
any sense of personal responsibility for now. And no
one shall force you to obey God's law.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"Brother Rat, you probably know as well as I do that
'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' and variants of
the same is really a complete mistranslation from the
Hebrew..."
Cite your verse and we'll discuss it.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"...if I'm reading this thread right...it wasn't on how individuals
view the issues anyway...but rather on what God Himself
has stated and declared on those issues as stated within His
Word."
Exactly.
It is "alt.bible", et. al., afterall !
The DataRat
The DataRat
"Just a note."
Thanx, but don't try too hard to impress us.
"Satanism" applies just as well.
From the Random House Electronic Dictionary:
Sa-tan-ism (sayt'n iz uhm) n.
1. the worship of Satan or the powers of evil.
2. a travesty of Christian rites in which
Satan is worshiped.
3. diabolical or satanic disposition,
behavior, or activity; diabolism;
deviltry.
[1555-65]
Derived words
--Sa'tan-ist, n.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"You don't find too many Buddhist Satanists."
While Buddhism doesn't worship Satan per se,
it is a doctrine of demons.
The DataRat
Christopher Adams
> > > witchcraft" (NASB).
> >
> > who practice numerology and other forms of divination.
>
> Does it make going against what Scripture states any less
> wrong when it's done by one who professes to be a follower
> grace may abound?" Certainly not on both counts.
While I understand the point that you all have here, please remember that the bible does not, ever,
define what witchcraft is. You would have to go back to the Hebrew culture of the time and their
definition of witchcraft . . . oh, but wait!
It's mistranslated from "poisoner" anyway!
No commandments against witchcraft at all, then? Hmm . . .
--
Chris Adams
Mhac de Bhandia
*Magic Code*
Christopher Adams
> It can't be one sided. By your thinking, if he can't dictate
> on how he views the issue...then neither are you completely able
> to dictate on how you view the issue...or how he should view the
> issue.
> view the issues anyway...but rather on what God Himself
> has stated and declared on those issues as stated within His
> Word.
> on the matter rather than trying to silence those who are merely
> repeating what was already stated....
While I acknowledge that perhaps my answer was a little dogmatic, my point still stands. *My* dogma
extends only to deliberately *not* dictating to others what they can think, say, or feel . . .
As for the issue of asking God, I think it's pretty clear that I don't believe in the bible. Once again,
I'm posting this in alt.religion.apologetics.
In any case, it's mistranslated.
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Fri, 09 Oct 1998
18:33:32 +1000, Christopher Adams <ad...@comcen.com.au> intoned:
Christopher Adams:
>While I understand the point that you all have here, please remember that
the bible does not, ever,
>define what witchcraft is. You would have to go back to the Hebrew culture
of the time and their
>definition of witchcraft . . . oh, but wait!
>
>It's mistranslated from "poisoner" anyway!
Sorry, Chris -- that's incorrect, based on poor scholarship in the
Murray - Gardner - Valiente "school."
The word used in the following verse (quoted from DataRat's post)
>Deuteronomy 18:10-11
>"There shall not be found among you anyone ...who practices
>witchcraft" (NASB).
is usually translated "chasaph." (sorry -- I don't remember the Heb.
charachters). It means "One who murmers" -- i.e. magical
incantations. Connotative associations with potions led to the
(erroneous) translation as "pharmakeia" in the Septuigent.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
wiccahome <AT> geocities <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
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Taliesin of Earthstar
[Posted from alt.religion.apologetics and CC'ed]
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on 9 Oct 1998 04:08:28
GMT, "GoldRush" <jrr...@mlode.com> intoned:
>
>Satanism and witchcraft is not appreciated by
>the Christians covered with the blood of Christ
>who participate on these NGs.
>
>Be gone with you.
>
>There are other forums for the like of you.
>
>Go to your own kind.
Begging your pardon, but I am posting from alt.religion.apologetics.
The term "apologetics" is not limited to Christianity.
I personally do not feel moved to defend Satanism, Diabolism, or any
similar path -- but I do, as is my right, defend Wicca, which is my
own path. The original message, as posted by DataRat, was cross-
posted to a variety of fora, some members of which might also resent
your presence.
I, for one, do not resent your presence: however, might I request
that if you intend to debate the point of the posts, that you attack
the post, not the poster. Ad hominem attacks present a poor witnes
for Christ, and a poor defense for Christianity.
As a friend of mine says "It is difficult to accept 'the love of God'
when it is delivered with the back of the hand."
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
wiccahome <AT> geocities <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
above address enters you into the agreement that you
accept a charge of $50 U.S. for proof-reading, grammar,
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The DataRat
"...please remember that the bible does not, ever,
define what witchcraft is."
Presume you are referencing Exodus 22:18.
The KJV translates the Hebrew kashaph as "witch"
in that verse.
Scripture doesn't define ~every~ word it uses.
Most have sufficiently plain meanings to dispense
with restating the obvious. Thus, Strong's defines
kashaph as:
1) (Piel) to practice witchcraft or sorcery, use witchcraft
1a) sorcerer, sorceress (participle)
"It's mistranslated from 'poisoner' anyway!"
It is the NT which employs the Greek term
pharmakeia for "witchcraft" (KJV, NIV), or
"sorcery" (NKJ, NASB).
Here we have to consider the etymology of pharmakeia.
It would appear that the Greeks had no concept akin
to the Hebrew kashaph. This is NOT surprising for a
pagan society. Unfortunately in that regard, the NT is
in ~Greek~.
So, the closest word describing the concept of kashaph
had to be chosen. Nothing unusual here. Old words
are frequently employed to describe new concepts.
The British refer to an automobile hood as a "bonnet",
but nobody thinks women wear car hoods on their heads !
The reason "pharmakeia" was chosen was that,
sometimes, witches would use drugs to cast spells.
So, the term has nothing at all to do with "poisoners"
as used in Scripture ! ( Albeit "poisoner" or "druggist"
is the original Greek meaning. )
Words change. For example, the Old English of
the King James Bible uses the word "lease". It has
nothing to do with the rental of property. "Lease"
back then meant deceit.
The NT writers employed pharmakeia to express a
concept there was no other, better word for. And
-in context of Scripture- it means "witchcraft" rather
than poisoning.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"The word used in the following verse (quoted from
DataRat's post) ...Deuteronomy 18:10-11... witchcraft"
(NASB). is usually translated 'chasaph.'..."
The Hebrew word translated (KJV) in that verse as
"witch" is kashaph.
The KJV "divination" is the Hebrew qecem, "enchanter"
nachash, "wizard" yidd@`oniy, "necromancer" darash,
and "charmer" chabar.
Immediately we see the wealth of Hebrew words for
occult practices / practitioners. This from a relatively
unsophisticated language known for it's paupacy of
synonyms.
In contrast, Greek -a language rich in words of all flavors
and shades of meanings- has little to choose from in the
area of the occult. Thus, the ~NT~ writers had to employ
the Greek pharmakeia to put across the concept of
witchcraft ...although it only referenced the drug aspect
used in some witchcraft practices.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"At least we are brothers in our mutual love of Christ
and our divinely given contempt of the zeitgeist."
Post-Modernism is despicable to all thinking men.
But it is no surprise, that moral relativism has now
devolved into intellectual relativism !
Our dispute -between catholics and Christians- is
of the old order: When truth was ~not~ plastic.
Neither of us, Mr. Rice, are a modern Pilate asking
"What is truth ?". ( We'll leave that question to the
New Agers. ) We both think we know what is true,
it remains for us to sort out which one of us is right.
Your Friend,
The DataRat
Candle Jack
|Candle Jack wrote:
|> Satanism and Witchcraft(to a lesser degree) are very much a part of
|> Christianity.
|
|You mean apart from Christianity!
|
|(Mat 16:23 KJV) But he{Jesus} turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee
|behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not
|the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
|
|(Luke 4:8 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind
|me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God,
and
|him only shalt thou serve.
Quoting scripture only reinforces my point. Satan is a character in
the Christian mythology.
--
Regards,
Candle "Nine out of Ten Dentists Agree" Jack
The DataRat
"I do, as is my right, defend Wicca, which is my
own path."
The Reform Rodent believes that Jim and Ronda
were probably requesting you delete Christian headers
in your newsgroup replies.
His belief is that -if Wicca is mentioned- Wiccans
have a right to defend their position. Personally,
Bro. Rat feels that we're better off talking to you than
burning you at the stake. ( We can always reserve that
for later ).
Scripture teaches zero tolerance for witchcraft. But
that was in ancient Jewish society. This is post-Christian
America, and Wicca isn't going to be outlawed anytime
soon.
The Genevan Rodent will be frank with you: He firmly
agrees with the Bible that witchcraft is destructive to a
society. Yet, it looks like we're going to have to live
with it. And -in THAT contingency- it's better to talk
with Wiccans than ignore them.
If Jim and Ronda affirm that they are offended by the
cross-posts to Christian newsgroups, Bro. Rat will be
glad to trim his headers for this discussion.
The DataRat
Candle Jack
|
|While Buddhism doesn't worship Satan per se,
|it is a doctrine of demons.
And? My point was that Satanism as it is being discussed in this NG
is a construct of the Christian mythos. I doubt many Christians would
get as worked up about someone espousing the worship of Vishnu as they
do Satan.
--
Regards,
Candle "Uses AA batteries" Jack
The DataRat
"I doubt many Christians would get as worked up
about someone espousing the worship of Vishnu
as they do Satan."
Yeah, Vishnu isn't mentioned as "the Enemy" in
Scripture. Like any idol, this Hindu god has no
objective reality. He's a statute of wood or stone.
So, of course, Christians aren't going to get "as
worked up" over Vishnu !
The DataRat
Astalis
Candle Jack wrote:
> GoldRush wrote in message <01bdf339$fbf70fc0$b53587d0@default>...
> |Mr. Adams,
> |Satanism and witchcraft is not appreciated by
> |the Christians covered with the blood of Christ
> |who participate on these NGs.
> |Be gone with you.
> |There are other forums for the like of you.
> |Go to your own kind.
>
> Satanism and Witchcraft(to a lesser degree) are very much a part of
> Christianity. In TV terms I guess you could say they are spinoffs.
> You don't find too many Buddhist Satanists.
May be better to say they're the oppisite of
Christianity rather than "a part of" or spinoffs
then since, by their very nature, they defy
everything Christianity proclaims.
brendan
>It is the NT which employs the Greek term
>pharmakeia for "witchcraft" (KJV, NIV), or
>"sorcery" (NKJ, NASB).
>Here we have to consider the etymology of pharmakeia.
>It would appear that the Greeks had no concept akin
>to the Hebrew kashaph. This is NOT surprising for a
>pagan society. Unfortunately in that regard, the NT is
>in ~Greek~.
Why is this NOT surprising? Are you saying that Greeks had no concept of
magic? No words for those who practice magic? That's a stretch.
>The NT writers employed pharmakeia to express a
>concept there was no other, better word for. And
>-in context of Scripture- it means "witchcraft" rather
>than poisoning.
I disagree. I think the usage is deliberate. To boot, there are many examples
of things modern Westerns would call "magic" that were common everyday
practices among the ancient (and premodern) Jews. I feel that we cannot rely
entirely on our own definitions of things, but must go to the context... which
fits nicely with my next point:
The whole "not suffering a witch to live" stuff was written under specific
circumstances and referred to specific people. I do not think that we can
apply it to our pluralistic culture in today's US. BUT, I would like to see
how it can, or should be used.
>The DataRat
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Fri, 09 Oct 1998
15:53:09 GMT, "The DataRat" <dat...@home.com> intoned:
>
>"I do, as is my right, defend Wicca, which is my
>own path."
>
>The Reform Rodent believes that Jim and Ronda
>were probably requesting you delete Christian headers
>in your newsgroup replies.
As is their right to request -- though I will admit that I have seen
more polite requests in my day. Indeed, DataRat, if we are to call a
spade a spade, the "request" was an order -- imperative, impolite,
and incorrect in its inferrences.
However, I grow increasingly tired of being lumped with Satanists.
Satanism (by whatever term it is called) is another path altogether --
one which I do not agree with, for what that is worth. Stipulated,
both are manifestly NON-Christian, and some Satanists are professedly
ANTI-Christian (also an important distinction), but we and they are
not the same, any more than the Satanists can say "Oh, you both
follow rules and ethics -- you're all the same."
Bah! I have striven to be polite and respectful in all of my dealings
with Christians on the internet -- and, though I have not always
succeeded in the past, I will continue to strive so. But even
politeness and courtesy avail nothing in the face of such deliberate
ignorance of the facts.
Stipulated, Jim and Rhonda are COMPLETELY within their rights to post
their opinion -- but what would their reaction be if they -- or some
other Christian -- were to post on a Wiccan or Pagan newsgroup, and I
were to respond in the same fashion. What would Jim and Rhonda's
opinion be then?
>Personally,
>Bro. Rat feels that we're better off talking to you than
>burning you at the stake. ( We can always reserve that
>for later ).
Jokes aside (and I did appreciate it <g>) with reactions like this,
what is the point? Who would listen? Many Christians who expect us to
listen will not listen in return. Many Christians who expect us to
respect them will not respect us in return.
You expect us to "believe" your authoritative book -- and yet you
tear down anything that doesn't agree. You expect us to have "faith"
in your god -- and yet you call ours either "false gods" or "demons."
You expect us to respect Christianity -- and yet, look at all the
lies that are being told about us, in the very name of Christ, whom
you claim to revere.
Please don't get me wrong -- I most certainly do NOT believe that the
majority of the people reading this post are guilty of such behavior.
But enough are that I, for one, would be reticent to come back to
Christianity, were I interested in leaving Wicca.
Which I am not.
Is it impossible to believe that I, who once practiced Christianity,
found it lacking? Is it impossible to believe that I found, in Wicca,
what I did not find within Christianity?
And is it impossible to respect the person, even if you disagree with
the beliefs? I know it is not impossible -- for I respect many of the
Christians I meet on these NG's. Yes, I disagree -- but I can still
show respect, and courtesy, to those Christians that I meet.
Yet courtesy does NOT mean standing still for slander.
Those of you, who are willing to tell lies about us, who are willing
to hate, and to hurt, beware. We will find out. We will respond --
not by "curses" or "magic spells," but by exposing lies in public
fora. Disagree with us if you will -- but lie about us at the risk of
your own reputation.
I shall stand for the defense of my faith -- much like Martin Luther,
"I can do naught else."
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
fidei <DOT> defensor <AT> bigfoot <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
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Alan Craft
>You've got The DataRat confused with fundamentalists
>-and more specifically- Kingdom Now Theologists.
>Bro. Rat is Reformed. ( No, he didn't stop drinking recently !
>"Reformed" as in The Reformation. )
Rather, "DEformed" as in the DEformation.
Alan
Alan Craft
>Scripture doesn't define ~every~ word it uses.
Ahhh, the rat makes an admittance.
Kevin T Rice
And may the one who is right, by the grace of God, prevail. I
think we can both agree on that prayer.
A Friend and Separated Brother,
Kevin
Kevin T Rice
On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, The DataRat wrote:
>
>
> "I do, as is my right, defend Wicca, which is my
> own path."
>
>
>
> The Reform Rodent believes that Jim and Ronda
> were probably requesting you delete Christian headers
> in your newsgroup replies.
>
> His belief is that -if Wicca is mentioned- Wiccans
> have a right to defend their position. Personally,
> Bro. Rat feels that we're better off talking to you than
> burning you at the stake. ( We can always reserve that
> for later ).
Philosopher Peter Kreeft has suggested (with his tongue very
much in cheek) that we should take advantage of modern-day cryogenic
technology. Instead of burning witches and heretics we should freeze
'em! Then God can thaw them out on Judgement Day.
:)
Candle Jack
|Yeah, Vishnu isn't mentioned as "the Enemy" in
|Scripture. Like any idol, this Hindu god has no
|objective reality. He's a statute of wood or stone.
|So, of course, Christians aren't going to get "as
|worked up" over Vishnu !
No objective reality to non-Hindus. No more than the Cross or a
Crucifix has to non-Christians.
--
Regards,
Candle "Convient a une poubelle de 77L" Jack
Candle Jack
| May be better to say they're the oppisite of
|Christianity rather than "a part of" or spinoffs
|then since, by their very nature, they defy
|everything Christianity proclaims.
Satanism and Witchcraft(to a lesser degree) have no context apart from
Christianity. We can discuss Buddhism, Taoism, North American Native
animism without a reference to Christianity but not Satanism. They
exist in the same space.
--
Regards,
Candle "Adult Supervision Required" Jack
Candle Jack
|However, I grow increasingly tired of being lumped with Satanists.
|Satanism (by whatever term it is called) is another path
altogether --
| one which I do not agree with, for what that is worth. Stipulated,
|both are manifestly NON-Christian, and some Satanists are professedly
|ANTI-Christian (also an important distinction), but we and they are
|not the same, any more than the Satanists can say "Oh, you both
|follow rules and ethics -- you're all the same."
It's not altogether inaccurate to draw comparisons between Wiccanism
and Satanism especially given the shared history.
Wicca and other neo-pagan religions as they are practiced today
emulate many of the ceremonies and rituals devised by Aleister
Crowley(a notorious Satanist) and the Hermetic Order of the Golden
Dawn.
--
Regards,
Candle "Load 16 tonnes and what do you get?" Jack
Astalis
Candle Jack wrote:
> Astalis wrote in message <361E3B40...@epsi.net>...
> | May be better to say they're the oppisite of
> |Christianity rather than "a part of" or spinoffs
> |then since, by their very nature, they defy
> |everything Christianity proclaims.
>
> Satanism and Witchcraft(to a lesser degree) have no context apart from
> Christianity. We can discuss Buddhism, Taoism, North American Native
> animism without a reference to Christianity but not Satanism. They
> exist in the same space.
I think I understand what you're stating in regards to
ChristianitySatanism but cannot agree in that an opposite does not
exactly cause the two halves to be joined as is illustrated within the
Eastern yin-yang thought.
If you want to be technical...practicing Wiccans would
heavily dispute that...and I know some who have. They
would state they are of the old Craft that has nothing to do
with Christianity. I have heard of some Satanists, such as
Levey, who have stated that those who claim to practice
"White/Good" magik are hypocrites since they deny who it
is they really worship and serve.
At least from my P.O.V. I guess I'm looking at the
specific teachings of Satanism and Witchcraft...and
how they contrast heavily with the teachings found
within Christianity.
But then, seen in that light it could be said
Christianity is in direct contrast with every other belief
system. "By grace we are saved, through faith. Not of
works..." Whereas in other belief system outside of
Christianity you either are "saved" provided the belief
professes you have something to be saved from, or attain a
"higher level" of life and existance by what you do -- your
works.
Stephanie Rendino
Candle Jack <nospamf...@geocities.com> wrote:
>It's not altogether inaccurate to draw comparisons between Wiccanism
>and Satanism especially given the shared history.
Which is--?
>Wicca and other neo-pagan religions as they are practiced today
>emulate many of the ceremonies and rituals devised by Aleister
>Crowley(a notorious Satanist) and the Hermetic Order of the Golden
>Dawn.
Er, no. You're confusing Wicca and ritual magick, and there is a HUGE
difference! I would argue that Wicca is a religion and ritual magick is
not. One of the foremost practioners of the Golden Dawn was Dion Fortune,
an Anglican.
Kevin T Rice
On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 fidei.d...@bigfoot.NOSPAM.com wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Fri, 09 Oct 1998
> 15:53:09 GMT, "The DataRat" <dat...@home.com> intoned:
>
> >
> >"I do, as is my right, defend Wicca, which is my
> >own path."
> >
> >The Reform Rodent believes that Jim and Ronda
> >were probably requesting you delete Christian headers
> >in your newsgroup replies.
>
> As is their right to request -- though I will admit that I have seen
> more polite requests in my day. Indeed, DataRat, if we are to call a
> spade a spade, the "request" was an order -- imperative, impolite,
> and incorrect in its inferrences.
>
> However, I grow increasingly tired of being lumped with Satanists.
> Satanism (by whatever term it is called) is another path altogether --
> one which I do not agree with, for what that is worth. Stipulated,
> both are manifestly NON-Christian, and some Satanists are professedly
> ANTI-Christian (also an important distinction), but we and they are
> not the same, any more than the Satanists can say "Oh, you both
> follow rules and ethics -- you're all the same."
>
> Bah! I have striven to be polite and respectful in all of my dealings
> with Christians on the internet -- and, though I have not always
> succeeded in the past, I will continue to strive so. But even
> politeness and courtesy avail nothing in the face of such deliberate
> ignorance of the facts.
>
> Stipulated, Jim and Rhonda are COMPLETELY within their rights to post
> their opinion -- but what would their reaction be if they -- or some
> other Christian -- were to post on a Wiccan or Pagan newsgroup, and I
> were to respond in the same fashion. What would Jim and Rhonda's
> opinion be then?
>
> >Personally,
> >Bro. Rat feels that we're better off talking to you than
> >burning you at the stake. ( We can always reserve that
> >for later ).
>
> Jokes aside (and I did appreciate it <g>) with reactions like this,
> what is the point? Who would listen? Many Christians who expect us to
> listen will not listen in return. Many Christians who expect us to
> respect them will not respect us in return.
>
> You expect us to "believe" your authoritative book -- and yet you
> tear down anything that doesn't agree.
That is because we really do believe that book that we "expect you
to believe". We would be be terribly hypocritical if we did not. And if
we did not "tear down anything that" didn't agree, that would mean we did
not believe what we say we believe, for we cannot rationally hold two
contradictory beliefs.
> You expect us to have "faith"
> in your god -- and yet you call ours either "false gods" or "demons."
That is because we really have faith in the God (capital G,
believe me it makes all the difference - there is only on capital G god)
so of course we call your false gods false gods and demons. It would be
very odd if we did not. You are making it seem like this is is
inconsistencey on our parts. It would be inconsistent if we behaved any
differently.
> You expect us to respect Christianity -- and yet, look at all the
> lies that are being told about us, in the very name of Christ, whom
> you claim to revere.
>
> Please don't get me wrong -- I most certainly do NOT believe that the
> majority of the people reading this post are guilty of such behavior.
> But enough are that I, for one, would be reticent to come back to
> Christianity, were I interested in leaving Wicca.
>
> Which I am not.
>
> Is it impossible to believe that I, who once practiced Christianity,
> found it lacking? Is it impossible to believe that I found, in Wicca,
> what I did not find within Christianity?
I went from Christianity to the occult too, Wicca included (I
dipped my fingers into everything). Is it impossible to to believe that I
found ALL occultism lacking and when I returned to Christianity, felt like
I had come home again?
Candle Jack
|Precisely WHAT shared history?
Many of the rituals and iconography of the Neo-Pagan movement have
their genesis in Crowley's Golden Dawn. I will endeavour to provide
some specific examples soon. The only one that comes to mind is the
creation of Invoking and Banishing Pentacles(both are created the same
way).
|Wicca was developed in the early 20th century (earliest probable date
|is 1939) by Gerald B. Gardner -- and was DESIGNED as being separate
|from Satanism. Right from the beginning -- Gardner's first non-
|fiction witchcraft book, _Witchcraft Today_ (London: Riders, 1954)
|makes that distinction clear.
The fact that Gardner feels the need to make a distinction makes me
suspect, but I have not read the book so I cannot really give an
informed opinion. You happen to have the ISBN? I must say that I am
heartened by the fact that you did not put forth Wicca as an 'old
religion'. Many Neo-Pagans are completely ignorant of the
contemporary origins of their belief systems.
|On the other hand, Satanism, in one form or another, has been reputed
|to have been extant since medieval times -- however, much of the
|documentation is suspect, as it was obtained under torture.
I would expect that as long a Judeo-Christianity has been around,
people have been accused of following Satan.
|Christianity and Islam "emulate" many of the principals of Judaism --
|so we shall assume that all of these are Jewish religions?
They do share a common ancestry. Like a tree with a variety of
branches(e.g.Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.).
|POI: Aliester Crowley was many things -- a mountain climber, a poet,
|an author, a social rebel -- and an egotist, who would use the
|symbolism of "Satan" to gain attention. None of these things make him
|"a Satanist," unless you define ALL non-Christians as Satanists. (He
|was also a twit, as far as I can tell from his writings, but that is
|just my opinion).
All Satanists are Judeo-Christians, just a different branch of the
tree.
As for Crowley, what in your eyes would qualify him as a Satanist?
I would posit that using Satanic symbolism in a ritual/ ceremonial
context would qualify him as one.
--
Regards,
Candle "Great Horned Gawd" Jack
Stephanie Rendino
Candle Jack <nospamf...@geocities.com> wrote:
>Taliesin of Earthstar wrote in message
><361d663e...@news.clt.bellsouth.net>...
>|Precisely WHAT shared history?
>
>Many of the rituals and iconography of the Neo-Pagan movement have
>their genesis in Crowley's Golden Dawn. I will endeavour to provide
>some specific examples soon. The only one that comes to mind is the
>creation of Invoking and Banishing Pentacles(both are created the same
>way).
Pentacles are a very, very old symbol. They were used by Christians up
until the middle ages, as were unicorns for that matter. Cf the old poem
"Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" in which Gawain has a pentacle on his
shield to show that he is a perfect Christian knight.
The Golden Dawn was not founded by Crowley alone, either.
>|Wicca was developed in the early 20th century (earliest probable date
>|is 1939) by Gerald B. Gardner -- and was DESIGNED as being separate
>|from Satanism. Right from the beginning -- Gardner's first non-
>|fiction witchcraft book, _Witchcraft Today_ (London: Riders, 1954)
>|makes that distinction clear.
>
>
>The fact that Gardner feels the need to make a distinction makes me
>suspect, but I have not read the book so I cannot really give an
>informed opinion. You happen to have the ISBN? I must say that I am
>heartened by the fact that you did not put forth Wicca as an 'old
>religion'. Many Neo-Pagans are completely ignorant of the
>contemporary origins of their belief systems.
Many forms of Wicca (which I don't practice by the way) are very different
from anything Gardner wrote up. One friend of mine walked out of a
Gardnerian ritual in disgust at its patent sexism. She's a Wiccan.
>|On the other hand, Satanism, in one form or another, has been reputed
>|to have been extant since medieval times -- however, much of the
>|documentation is suspect, as it was obtained under torture.
This is an important point, don't ignore it!
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Fri, 9 Oct 1998
17:07:16 -0400, "Candle Jack" <nospamf...@geocities.com> intoned:
>
>It's not altogether inaccurate to draw comparisons between Wiccanism
>and Satanism especially given the shared history.
(Minor POI; the term "Wiccanism" is poor grammar -- technically, it
would translate as "the worship of Wicca." The word Wicca is
grammatically correct.)
Precisely WHAT shared history?
Wicca was developed in the early 20th century (earliest probable date
is 1939) by Gerald B. Gardner -- and was DESIGNED as being separate
from Satanism. Right from the beginning -- Gardner's first non-
fiction witchcraft book, _Witchcraft Today_ (London: Riders, 1954)
makes that distinction clear.
On the other hand, Satanism, in one form or another, has been reputed
to have been extant since medieval times -- however, much of the
documentation is suspect, as it was obtained under torture.
Historically, Satanism is usually seen in one of two formats, and the
two seem to be mutually exclusive:
1: Satanism as the "Grand Party."
Satanism is commonly seen as an orgiastic cult, motivated by
outrageous debauchery far more than any "black magic." Common
examples of this type of Satanism include the Hellfire Clubs of the
seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and the modern (LaVeyan) Church
of Satan. For the most part, Satan is not believed in as an entity,
but is seen as a great excuse to throw a blow-out party.
The earliest example of this being in Medieval France, where the
serfs were living under crushing conditions, strictly controlled by
both Church and King. At the time, the thought seemes to be that
"Freedom is of the Devil; sexual enjoyment is of the Devil; even
music and dancing are of the devil -- then let us invoke the Devil!"
Satan was referred to as "_Le Grande Serf Revolte_" -- the "Great
Serf in Revolt." (Valiente, 42)
The modern Church of Satan, founded by Anton Lavey in 1969, is
another one of this type. While heaping abuse and derision on "white
witches," LaVey founded a church with no "god" save the worshipper.
2: Satanism as the "Secret Underground."
Many sources (partial list below) speak of an "underground
conspiracy" of evil, child-murdering Satanists. Lauren Stratford,
Mike Warnke, "Elaine," and many others tell of having been a part of
that conspiracy -- sometimes even claiming to have met with important
world leaders. ("Elaine" claims to have met with the Pope, at one
point). There have been claims of up to 50,000 victims per year.
"Elaine" (and her partner "Dr." Rebecca Brown) was exposed by
Personal Freedom Outreach (http://www.pfo.org/), Lauren Stratford and
Mike Warnke by Cornerstone Magazine (no known URL -- the articles are
on several places on the Internet). And the very concept of
"organized Satanic ritual murderers" has been blasted out of the
water by Keith Lanning, Special Supervisory Agent, FBI. (Lanning)
>Wicca and other neo-pagan religions as they are practiced today
>emulate many of the ceremonies and rituals devised by Aleister
>Crowley(a notorious Satanist) and the Hermetic Order of the Golden
>Dawn.
Christianity and Islam "emulate" many of the principals of Judaism --
so we shall assume that all of these are Jewish religions?
POI: Aliester Crowley was many things -- a mountain climber, a poet,
an author, a social rebel -- and an egotist, who would use the
symbolism of "Satan" to gain attention. None of these things make him
"a Satanist," unless you define ALL non-Christians as Satanists. (He
was also a twit, as far as I can tell from his writings, but that is
just my opinion).
- ---------- Footnotes ----------
Lanning, Keith, "Satanic, Occult Ritualistic Crime: A Law Enforcement
Perspective," 1989. Publication information is unknown, but a copy of
the article can be found in many places on the Internet.
Valiente, Doreen. ABC of Witchcraft, An.(Custer, WA. Phoenix
Publishing, Inc.) 1973.
- ----- List of "Satanist Conspiracy" sources -----
"Cutting Edge" website
http://www.cuttingedge.org
Claims that witches are involved (along with Roman Catholics, Masons,
and the "New World Order") in a deliberate plan of subverting the
United States, and other, governments.
Ritchie, Tammie, "Perilous Times" website.
http://www.sounddoctrine.com/ptimes/index.htm
Claims that Wiccans worship Satan, and are trying to take over the
world political scene.
Van Natten, Steve, "Baalam's Ass" website,
http://www.balaams-ass.com/
Claims that Wiccans "cannot be a real witch unless she has
sacrificed animals, at least, to Satan."
(http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/warnings/cabot.htm)
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
fidei <DOT> defensor <AT> bigfoot <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
above address enters you into the agreement that you
accept a charge of $50 U.S. for proof-reading, grammar,
and spelling correction. This agreement does not apply
to requested information.
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AWB
>Taliesin of Earthstar wrote in message
>|However, I grow increasingly tired of being lumped with Satanists.
>|Satanism (by whatever term it is called) is another path
>altogether --
>| one which I do not agree with, for what that is worth. Stipulated,
>|both are manifestly NON-Christian, and some Satanists are professedly
>|ANTI-Christian (also an important distinction), but we and they are
>|not the same, any more than the Satanists can say "Oh, you both
>|follow rules and ethics -- you're all the same."
>
>
>It's not altogether inaccurate to draw comparisons between Wiccanism
>and Satanism especially given the shared history.
>
>Wicca and other neo-pagan religions as they are practiced today
>emulate many of the ceremonies and rituals devised by Aleister
>Crowley(a notorious Satanist) and the Hermetic Order of the Golden
>Dawn.
>--
>Regards,
>Candle "Load 16 tonnes and what do you get?" Jack
>
>
Surely the "shared history" of Wicca and Satanism pales besides the
shared history of Christianity and Satanism - which, of course, only
exists because of christianity. You might as well condemn christianity
because satanic ritual emulates christian ritual.
Was Crowley a Satanist? I thought he was a Thelamist (you might not
like it, but not exactly satanism) - or, more likely, just a nutter
who thrived on controversy and the overreactions of those, both
religious and non-religious, who surrounded him.
AWB
The DataRat
"And may the one who is right, by the grace of
God, prevail. I think we can both agree on that
prayer."
Not sure, sir, whether the right one among us will
prevail in any given debate. But we can be assured
that God shall prevail in the end. Bro. Rat prays
( as he is certain you do ), that we carefully listen for
His will in our lives.
Your Buddy,
The DataRat
The DataRat
"I have striven to be polite and respectful in all of my dealings
with Christians on the internet"
Indeed you have. The Reformed Rodents compliments
to you.
"Satanism (by whatever term it is called) is another
path altogether"
From your perspective, but NOT from ours. Would be
glad to discuss this with you, if you'd like.
"Jokes aside"
It wasn't entirely a joke, my friend.
"Many Christians who expect us to
listen will not listen in return."
The Genevan Rodent will listen.
"You expect us to 'believe' your authoritative book --
and yet you tear down anything that doesn't agree."
Those who "expect" you to believe aren't Calvinists.
We Calvinists expect you NOT to believe.
As for "tearing down anything that does not agree":
We are not relativists. Unlike you, we believe in
exclusive truths. If "A" is correct, then mutually exclusive
"B" ~must~ be wrong.
"Is it impossible to believe that I found, in Wicca,
what I did not find within Christianity?"
No surprising at all. There is much in Wicca which
can't be found in Christ. That's why it's "Wicca" and
not "Christianity". The issue is one of truth, not menu.
Anyway, you may be surprised to learn that Bro. Rat
has found it difficult to locate intelligent, sincere pagans
to have discussions with in these newsgroups.
Your Friend,
The DataRat
Rev. Frank
> Is it impossible to believe that I, who once practiced Christianity,
> what I did not find within Christianity?
No, not really.
Not everyone will find Christianity fulfilling. God must 'fill' the
person FIRST! With what? You may ask. FAITH!
(Acts 6:8 KJV) And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders
and miracles among the people.
What is FAITH?
(Heb 11:1 KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the
evidence of things not seen.
Where can I get FAITH?
(Rom 10:17 KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the
word of God.
(Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Does everyone have FAITH, this gift of God?
(2 Th 3:2 KJV) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and
wicked men: for all men have not faith.
(Heb 4:2 KJV) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto
them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with
faith in them that heard it.
Can FAITH be taken away?
(1 Tim 4:1 KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits,
and doctrines of devils;
Can I have more FAITH?
(2 Th 1:3 KJV) We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as
it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity
of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
What is the relationship between charity and FAITH?
(1 Cor 13:2 KJV) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand
all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I
could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
(1 Cor 13:13 KJV) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three;
but the greatest of these is charity.
So, what does FAITH do for me?
(Rom 5:1 KJV) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with
God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Gal 3:26 KJV) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ
Jesus.
--
Peace Be With You
Rev. Frank
Visit:
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/i/n/t/intmismin/index1.html
Christopher Adams
>
> Sorry, Chris -- that's incorrect, based on poor scholarship in the
> Murray - Gardner - Valiente "school."
>
> The word used in the following verse (quoted from DataRat's post)
> >Deuteronomy 18:10-11
> >"There shall not be found among you anyone ...who practices
> >witchcraft" (NASB).
> is usually translated "chasaph." (sorry -- I don't remember the Heb.
> charachters). It means "One who murmers" -- i.e. magical
> incantations. Connotative associations with potions led to the
> (erroneous) translation as "pharmakeia" in the Septuigent.
Well, it appears I was wrong. I apologise.
My point still stands - the bible does not define what "witchcraft" is.
--
Chris Adams
Mhac de Bhandia
*Magic Code*
MWI W++ S N PCE++/GR++/EG++
A a+ C G Q 666-- Y
Boy: Oxygen - running out!
Skinner: Yes, you should have thought of that *before* you made that paper aeroplane!
faranno dei cimiteri le loro cattedrali
e delle citta le vostre tombe.
Christopher Adams
The DataRat wrote:
> "...please remember that the bible does not, ever,
> define what witchcraft is."
>
> Presume you are referencing Exodus 22:18.
> The KJV translates the Hebrew kashaph as "witch"
> in that verse.
>
> Scripture doesn't define ~every~ word it uses.
> Most have sufficiently plain meanings to dispense
> with restating the obvious. Thus, Strong's defines
> kashaph as:
>
> 1) (Piel) to practice witchcraft or sorcery, use witchcraft
> 1a) sorcerer, sorceress (participle)
Yes, indeed, Brother Rat (and please note my apology as to the whole "poisoner" thing) but what *is*
this witchcraft?
Christopher Adams
> ( i.e., Satan as a
> > > practical principle oflife ...an anthropomorphic "Satan" who
> represents theprinciples of
> > > enlightened self-interest and benignhedonism -ala Anton LaVey ).
> > >
> > Oh, and yeah. Leaving aside the same issues of theocratic censorship as I
> dealt with previously, let
> > me clear something up for you.
> >
> > Satanism is the LaVeyan religion, founded in 1966. You, Brother Rat, seem
> to have a fair grasp of
> > what that entails.
> >
> > Diabolism is your so-called "hardcore demon-possessed Satanism." The term
> Satanism is wholly
> > incorrect when applied to actual Satan-worship. The correct term is
> diabolism, which is the
> > Christian heresy of actually worshipping, honouring, adoring, serving, et
> cetera ad nauseam, the
> > Devil, Satan.
> >
> > Just a note. :)
> >
> > I remain a servant of the Lord and the Lady,
> >
> > --
> > Chris Adams
> > Mhac de Bhandia
> >
>
> Mr. Adams,
>
> Satanism and witchcraft is not appreciated by
> the Christians covered with the blood of Christ
> who participate on these NGs.
>
> Be gone with you.
>
> There are other forums for the like of you.
>
> Go to your own kind.
a). The subject was brought up by DataRat, who is a Christian.
b). I am posting in alt.religion.apologetics, and am merely retaining the cross-posts so as to
ensure that DataRat gets my reply.
Christopher Adams
> |Satanism and witchcraft is not appreciated by
> |the Christians covered with the blood of Christ
> |who participate on these NGs.
> |Be gone with you.
> |There are other forums for the like of you.
> |Go to your own kind.
>
> Christianity. In TV terms I guess you could say they are spinoffs.
> You don't find too many Buddhist Satanists.
Satanism has nothing to do with Christianity, except that it sets itself up as an opposing moral
source and adopts certain figures from the Christian mythos to annoy and scare Christians.
Witchcraft is completely unrelated, referring as it does to the magical practices usually concerned
with harnessing natural energies, spirits, what have you.
Christopher Adams
> Christianity. We can discuss Buddhism, Taoism, North American Native
> animism without a reference to Christianity but not Satanism. They
> exist in the same space.
Just making the point a second time.
Satanism is unconnected to Christianity. You are mistakenly referring to the Christian heresy of
diabolism as Satanism, which it is not.
Witchcraft is wholly unconnected.
Captain Spith
> It's not altogether inaccurate to draw comparisons between Wiccanism
> and Satanism especially given the shared history.
I guess it is not innaccurate, then, to draw comparisons between
christians, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons, especially given their
shared history....
> Wicca and other neo-pagan religions as they are practiced today
> emulate many of the ceremonies and rituals devised by Aleister
> Crowley(a notorious Satanist) and the Hermetic Order of the Golden
> Dawn.
Likening two things due simply to superficial similarites is
moronic. The level of ritual in the Catholic Church yields quite a
level of similarity to the level of ritual commonly attributed to
Wicca. Does this make them analogous?
> --
> Regards,
> Candle "Load 16 tonnes and what do you get?" Jack
--
-Reverend Spith
"I used to be a heathen, but then I saw the Light. Now I'm a pagan"
-Anonymous
Candle Jack
|Satanism has nothing to do with Christianity, except that it sets
itself up as an |opposing moral source and adopts certain figures from
the Christian mythos to |annoy and scare Christians.
That seems to imply a relationship to me. Satanism has everything to
do with Christianity. It could not exist without it.
|Witchcraft is completely unrelated, referring as it does to the
magical practices |usually concerned with harnessing natural energies,
spirits, what have you.
The Neo-Pagan movement is a contemporary set of belief systems
subscribed to/ created by primarily White
Judeo-Christians(recovering). Granted, the relationship is not so
clear as Satanism, but it is there.
--
Regards,
Candle "Monica who?" Jack
The DataRat
"...but what *is* this witchcraft?"
The word "witchcraft" is neither Greek nor
Hebrew, so it's not found in Scripture. That
term is a translation from Greek and Hebrew
words having the same meaning, though.
Since it is an English word, let's go to the
Random House Electronic Dictionary:
witch-craft (wich'kraft , -kräft ) n.
1. the art or practices of a witch; sorcery;
magic.
2. magical influence; witchery.
Scholars who have researched the etymology of
"kashaph" and "pharmakeia" assure us that Scripture
uses those terms within the above meaning.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"That IS sobering. And yes, I have seen this."
Sobering. But it shouldn't be surprising.
Scripture has warned us that the Adversary has
planted weeds among the wheat.
The DataRat
Candle Jack
|Er, no. You're confusing Wicca and ritual magick, and there is a
HUGE
|difference! I would argue that Wicca is a religion and ritual magick
is
|not. One of the foremost practioners of the Golden Dawn was Dion
Fortune,
|an Anglican.
What is the difference? I have a book of Wiccan ritual magic on my
desk. How is the content substantively different from 'ritual
magick'?
--
Regards,
Candle "My Karma ran over your Dogma" Jack
Captain Spith
> On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, The DataRat wrote:
> > Ken T. Rice wrote:
> >
> > "A new television show is about to begin a season, 'Charmed' with
> > Alyssa Milano, Shanon Doherty and some other uh...er...'lady' whose name
> > escaped me. They portray three sisters who are witches, having inherited
> > supernatural powers from their mothers. During the preview, the
> > implication is their occult powers re-unite them and help them fend off an
> > attacker who would, it appears, try to rob and/or rape and/or kill them.
> > Additionally, a new move with Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock is
> > due out in theaters soon, 'Practical Magic', which also seems to present
> > witchcraft in a very favorable light (during the previews, the voice that
> > says the title has a very audible smile, like you're hearing 'Disney's
> > Little Mermaid Part II, Return to the Deep' or something like that. Like
> > it's real wholesome.
> > Your commentary, Bro. Ratr, on an area on which we can agree (for
> > a change) would be most welcome."
> > The Reformed Rodent replies:
> > What can one say about a popular culture in devolution ?
> > First the media foists acceptance of homosexuality on
> > us. Now, witchcraft.
Of course, if these movies/shows were about devout christian girls
banding together to fend off viscious attacks from pagans, I'm sure you
would heartily applaud. Witchcraft, as popularized in society and the
media, holds its legitimate roots in the deeply held beliefs in various
pagan religions. The fact that our society is acknowledging the
existance of positive displays of non-christian religions, should
actually be seen as a culturally positive move, even to christians. The
ability for one group to suppress the expression of alternate religions
would only set the scene for the eventual possibility of suppressing
YOUR religion.
Perhaps we are all doomed to go to hell when we die, but within the
secular world, the openness with which witchcraft and legitimized
homosexuality is allowed to be expressed - ironically - is the very same
dynamic which protects your right to speak out against it.]
On the other hand, all of these 'offensive' displays of 'evil' are
completely avoidable to those who are offended by them. Don't see the
movie. Don't watch the TV show. If you have children, you have failed
in your job of parenting if they have not been given enough grounding in
your family's moral and ethical code to withstand what they may still be
exposed to through commercials and other ads.
My daughter is confronted in one way or another with christianity all
the time, but has been solidly grounded in truth, so that she is able to
view it simply as 'someone else's idea' without succumbing to the
cultural barrage it presents.
The DataRat
"Instead of burning witches and heretics we should freeze
'em! Then God can thaw them out on Judgement Day."
A good analogy for what actually happens.
The DataRat
Candle Jack
|Surely the "shared history" of Wicca and Satanism pales besides the
|shared history of Christianity and Satanism - which, of course, only
|exists because of christianity. You might as well condemn
christianity
|because satanic ritual emulates christian ritual.
I am not interested in condemning any belief system. I would be at it
forever. Insofar as religion goes, consider me an interested
bystander. After all, isn't religion the only thing that really
distinguishes humans from the rest of the beasties?
|Was Crowley a Satanist? I thought he was a Thelamist (you might not
|like it, but not exactly satanism) - or, more likely, just a nutter
|who thrived on controversy and the overreactions of those, both
|religious and non-religious, who surrounded him.
None of which refutes the idea that many of the rituals and belief
structure he 'designed' are at the core of most Neo-Paganism sects.
There are a lot of 'nutters' whose ideas have struck a cord in the
imagination of the populace (e.g. The Rev.Jones)
--
Regards,
Candle "Hey, this Kool-Aid tastes funn..." Jack
Candle Jack
|Pentacles are a very, very old symbol. They were used by Christians
up
|until the middle ages, as were unicorns for that matter. Cf the old
poem
|"Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" in which Gawain has a pentacle on
his
|shield to show that he is a perfect Christian knight.
It wasn't the shape of the pentacle that I was referring to, it was
the method with which it is created.
|The Golden Dawn was not founded by Crowley alone, either.
No argument there. Crowley was simply the most prolific.
|Many forms of Wicca (which I don't practice by the way) are very
different
|from anything Gardner wrote up. One friend of mine walked out of a
|Gardnerian ritual in disgust at its patent sexism. She's a Wiccan.
Good point. Wiccans come in all flavours. I am most familiar with
the Goddess-Feminist type which is just as sexist.
--
Regards,
Candle "Degage les mecanismes collants" Jack
Captain Spith
>
> Stephanie Rendino wrote in message <6vmfe7$q...@stratus.CAM.ORG>...
> |Er, no. You're confusing Wicca and ritual magick, and there is a HUGE
> |difference! I would argue that Wicca is a religion and ritual magick is
> |not. One of the foremost practioners of the Golden Dawn was Dion Fortune,
> |an Anglican.
>
> What is the difference? I have a book of Wiccan ritual magic on my
> desk. How is the content substantively different from 'ritual
> magick'?
One book does not universal canon make. Unless you're Christian, I
guess....
Let me give an analogy you might understand. Wicca is a religion.
In that light, it contains a set of deeply held beliefs about truth and
spirituality. The analogous Christian dynamic is having a personal
relationship with Jesus Christ.
Ritual Magic _MAY_ be practised by Wiccans, but is not the same
thing. One who practises ritual magic from a book is simply trying to
go through the motions to create a result requiring a basis in faith or
belief. The Christian analog is the 'Sunday Christian' who goes to
church and says his/her "Hail Mary"s, but pays little more attention to
God the rest of the time, aside from praying for three bars on the Slot
Machine. There is no true relationship with his/her faith, simply a
desire to 'get something out of it'.
Additionally, just as I'm SURE that there are many purportedly
'Christian' books out that fly in the face of many Christians' beliefs,
so are there many books out there inaccurately presenting Wicca, or even
simply trying to cash in on the neo-pagan movement. Just as with your
own book(s), Wiccan references must be judged with the discerning eye of
faith and knowledge.
> --
> Regards,
> Candle "My Karma ran over your Dogma" Jack
--
Rev. Illuminatus Maximus
risk <fidei.defens...@REMOVETHISbigfoot.com> wrote:
<snip>
> None of these things make him
> "a Satanist," unless you define ALL non-Christians as Satanists.
<snip>
Now you are starting to understand the fundamentalist mentality. 8-)
All non-Christian religions are false religions and all non-Christian gods
are demons!
Of course, Judaism doesn't count, because the early Church based it's
authority in part on appropriated Jewish prophecies and scripture...
But every one else has been influenced by Satan's unseen hand. ESPECIALLY
Christian groups with whom I disagree! They are worse, because they CLAIM
to be Christian, but they have different views from me!!!
And if you disagree with any of this, it's just more proof of your
unwitting bandage to the Prince of Darkness! Nice Catch-22, huh?
Regards,
Rev. Illuminatus Maximus
Supreme Chief, Gnostic Friends Network
--
Gnostic Friends Network: http://www.enemies.com/
The Gnostic Ring: http://members.tripod.com/~TempleOfGnosis/join.html
Candle Jack
| I guess it is not innaccurate, then, to draw comparisons between
|christians, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons, especially given their
|shared history....
Same Yhwh isn't it? None of the groups you mentioned were formed by
dissatisfied Buddhists were they? Mormon's are just Christians with
an extra book of scripture aren't they?
| Likening two things due simply to superficial similarites is
|moronic. The level of ritual in the Catholic Church yields quite a
|level of similarity to the level of ritual commonly attributed to
|Wicca. Does this make them analogous?
Who do you think started the Neo-Pagan movement?
Could it have been dissatisfied Judeo-Christians?
Where do you think they bastardized their rituals from?
Could it be...the Church? Would that explain the similarities in some
rituals?
I seldom get personal with these post, but just this once...bite me.
--
Regards,
Candle "My mom like me" Jack
Candle Jack
| One book does not universal canon make. Unless you're Christian,
I
|guess....
I wasn't suggesting that. I was merely point out an 'at-hand'
example. For interest's sake, the book is, "Spiral Dance" by
Starhawk. How it found it's way onto my desk I do not
know...ooooooohhhh....
| Let me give an analogy you might understand. Wicca is a religion.
|In that light, it contains a set of deeply held beliefs about truth
and
|spirituality. The analogous Christian dynamic is having a personal
|relationship with Jesus Christ.
I've never really bought that whole 'personal relationship' schtick.
The rituals really define the religion in the sense that they unite
the community. Aside from providing explanations for worldy
phenomena, isn't the point of a religion to give a central reference
point to a community? Belief outside of the context of the community
is more a personal set of superstitutions.
| Ritual Magic _MAY_ be practised by Wiccans, but is not the same
|thing. One who practises ritual magic from a book is simply trying
to
|go through the motions to create a result requiring a basis in faith
or
|belief. The Christian analog is the 'Sunday Christian' who goes to
|church and says his/her "Hail Mary"s, but pays little more attention
to
|God the rest of the time, aside from praying for three bars on the
Slot
|Machine. There is no true relationship with his/her faith, simply a
|desire to 'get something out of it'.
|
| Additionally, just as I'm SURE that there are many purportedly
|'Christian' books out that fly in the face of many Christians'
beliefs,
|so are there many books out there inaccurately presenting Wicca, or
even
|simply trying to cash in on the neo-pagan movement. Just as with
your
|own book(s), Wiccan references must be judged with the discerning eye
of
|faith and knowledge.
Can you be a Wiccan if you do not participate in the rituals? My
understanding is that an important part of being Wiccan is forming
into a Coven for the express purpose of worship through ritual.
Solitary Witches are the exception. An anaolgy would be a Catholic
who does attend Church. Are they still a Catholic? Many would say
no.
I am confident the the value of the books I have at hand. I have had
the wasted many hours on books I would consider of suspect scientific
value. By now I can hopefully tell the difference.
My agenda, if any, is for people to understand the relationships of
their belief systems. I do not subscribe to any system of beliefs
that any might consider 'religious', I am merely a bystander
interested in the human condition.
--
Regards,
Candle "" Jack
Stephanie Rendino
Candle Jack <nospamf...@geocities.com> wrote:
>Stephanie Rendino wrote in message <6vmllf$t...@stratus.CAM.ORG>...
>|Pentacles are a very, very old symbol. They were used by Christians
>up
>|until the middle ages, as were unicorns for that matter. Cf the old
>poem
>|"Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" in which Gawain has a pentacle on
>his
>|shield to show that he is a perfect Christian knight.
>
>
>It wasn't the shape of the pentacle that I was referring to, it was
>the method with which it is created.
What do you mean by that?
>|The Golden Dawn was not founded by Crowley alone, either.
>
>
>No argument there. Crowley was simply the most prolific.
Your point being---?
>|Many forms of Wicca (which I don't practice by the way) are very
>different
>|from anything Gardner wrote up. One friend of mine walked out of a
>|Gardnerian ritual in disgust at its patent sexism. She's a Wiccan.
>
>
>Good point. Wiccans come in all flavours. I am most familiar with
>the Goddess-Feminist type which is just as sexist.
Yes, but Dianic Wicca is not meant for *you*.
Stephanie Rendino
Candle Jack <nospamf...@geocities.com> wrote:
>Stephanie Rendino wrote in message <6vmfe7$q...@stratus.CAM.ORG>...
>|Er, no. You're confusing Wicca and ritual magick, and there is a
>HUGE
>|difference! I would argue that Wicca is a religion and ritual magick
>is
>|not. One of the foremost practioners of the Golden Dawn was Dion
>Fortune,
>|an Anglican.
>
>
>What is the difference? I have a book of Wiccan ritual magic on my
>desk. How is the content substantively different from 'ritual
>magick'?
Ritual magick is NOT a religion. Wicca IS. Wicca is a "close-to-the-
earth", DIY, nature-based religion. Ritual magick is intellectual, super
expensive to practice, based on long rituals. I think you're willfully not
"getting it".
Stephanie Rendino
Candle Jack <nospamf...@geocities.com> wrote:
>I seldom get personal with these post, but just this once...bite me.
>--
>Regards,
>Candle "My mom like me" Jack
Hey, "bite me" is MY line in this ng (alt.religion.christian.roman
-catholic)! Nobody uses it here without my express permission!
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Fri, 9 Oct 1998
23:13:35 -0400, "Candle Jack" <nospamf...@geocities.com> intoned:
>Taliesin of Earthstar wrote in message
><361d663e...@news.clt.bellsouth.net>...
>|Precisely WHAT shared history?
>
>Many of the rituals and iconography of the Neo-Pagan movement have
>their genesis in Crowley's Golden Dawn.
Friend, it is not "Crowley's" Golden Dawn -- the G.D. was started by
S. L. MacGregor-Mathers, William Wescott, and one other man (whose
name I can't remember) in the 1880's. Crowley was a mere lad at the
time.
Crowley did join the G.D. later -- and was kicked out a few years
after that.
>I will endeavour to provide
>some specific examples soon. The only one that comes to mind is the
>creation of Invoking and Banishing Pentacles(both are created the same
>way).
Not exactly the same, but quite similar -- and you fail to take into
account the changes in Wiccan ritual since the 1950's.
>|Wicca was developed in the early 20th century (earliest probable date
>|is 1939) by Gerald B. Gardner -- and was DESIGNED as being separate
>|from Satanism. Right from the beginning -- Gardner's first non-
>|fiction witchcraft book, _Witchcraft Today_ (London: Riders, 1954)
>|makes that distinction clear.
>
>The fact that Gardner feels the need to make a distinction makes me
>suspect, but I have not read the book so I cannot really give an
>informed opinion.
Does the fact that some of the earliest Christian apologists had to
dispel the rumors of blood sacrifice make them "suspect?" Does the
fact that Jewish apologists STILL have to defend against accusations
of using the blood of unbaptised infants in the paschal bread make
them "suspect?"
It's called "blood libel" -- accusations of ritual sacrifice. At a
more basic level it's the connotative definition of "propoganda" --
if you "demonize" your enemy, you make it easier to deny him the
right to live in peace.
And do we live in peace?
Do we live in peace when the likes of Jesse Helms tries to take away
our status as a recognized religion under American law?
Do we live in peace when we are denied the right, in America, to
worship in public places?
Do we live in peace when the practice of our religion is STILL
illegal in Queensland, Australia?
Do we live in peace when the Department of Social Services come for
our children? (As has almost happened to me and my wife.)
>You happen to have the ISBN?
The ISBN is 0806500026 -- the book is out of print.
>I must say that I am
>heartened by the fact that you did not put forth Wicca as an 'old
>religion'. Many Neo-Pagans are completely ignorant of the
>contemporary origins of their belief systems.
>
>|On the other hand, Satanism, in one form or another, has been reputed
>|to have been extant since medieval times -- however, much of the
>|documentation is suspect, as it was obtained under torture.
>
>
>I would expect that as long a Judeo-Christianity has been around,
>people have been accused of following Satan.
As far as "accused of," in all probability most of those accused in
the so-called "Burning Times" were innocent -- that doesn't make them
any less dead.
>
>|Christianity and Islam "emulate" many of the principals of Judaism --
>|so we shall assume that all of these are Jewish religions?
>
>
>They do share a common ancestry. Like a tree with a variety of
>branches(e.g.Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.).
But are they the same?
After all, that is what you say of Wicca and Satanism.
>
>|POI: Aliester Crowley was many things -- a mountain climber, a poet,
>|an author, a social rebel -- and an egotist, who would use the
>|symbolism of "Satan" to gain attention. None of these things make him
>|"a Satanist," unless you define ALL non-Christians as Satanists. (He
>|was also a twit, as far as I can tell from his writings, but that is
>|just my opinion).
>
>
>All Satanists are Judeo-Christians, just a different branch of the
>tree.
A point frequently made in the writings of Neo-Pagans, who dispute
the comparison with Satanists. See Isaac Bonewitz's essay "The
Enemies of Our Enemies" at http://www.neopagan.net/Enemies.HTML .
>
>As for Crowley, what in your eyes would qualify him as a Satanist?
>I would posit that using Satanic symbolism in a ritual/ ceremonial
>context would qualify him as one.
What qualifies one as a Christian? The use of Christian symbolism in
a ritual/ ceremonial context? If so, by your own statement above
about Satanists being a "different branch of the [Christian] tree,"
then Satanists are Christians!
Preposterous, of course, but how do we come up with such logical
absurdities? Because some Christians call anyone who is "different" a
Satanist.
Satanism is, like Christianity, a religion -- it has rules, it has
doctrine. To be a Satanist, one must identify oneself as such, follow
the "doctrines" and the "rules."
Crowley was many things, as I have said before. He was pagan --
meaning that he "worshipped" non-Christian Gods -- but he was NOT a
Satanist. From his writings, he seems to have viewed the entire
Christian culture -- INCLUDING the concept of "Satan" -- with
contempt.
I have, since becomming Wiccan, attempted to always treat Christians
with respect -- I cannot, of course, expect respect if I do not give
it in turn. Part of that respect has been to know the nature of
Chrisitanity, and to not tell lies or spread mis-information.
Is it too much to ask that Christians treat me in the same manner?
Taliesin of Earthstar
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The DataRat
"All non-Christian religions are false religions and all
non-Christian gods are demons!"
The Reformed Rodent would agree on the first part.
All non-Christian religions are false religions. ( That's
NOT necessarily "fundamentalist mentality", Max.
Bro. Rat is Reformed and not Fundamentalist. ) It's
the Christian position expressed by God in Scripture.
As for the second part- "all non-Christian gods are
demons": Maybe the Fundamentalists believe ~that~.
Bro. Rat believes that Deuteronomy 5:35 & 39, Isaiah
41:21-24, and 1 Corinthians 8:4, teach us that these
gods of false religions are hollow idols ...symbols
without any corresponding reality.
The demon part comes in because the teachings
behind those idols are "doctrines of demons"
( 1 Timothy 4:1 NASB ).
"...the early Church based it's authority in part on
appropriated Jewish prophecies and scripture..."
You meant to write "fulfilled Jewish prophecies and
scripture", didn't you, Max ?
The DataRat
cego...@geocities.com
cpts...@teleport.com wrote:
> Candle Jack wrote:
>
> > It's not altogether inaccurate to draw comparisons between Wiccanism
> > and Satanism especially given the shared history.
>
> christians, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons, especially given their
> shared history....
>
> > emulate many of the ceremonies and rituals devised by Aleister
> > Crowley(a notorious Satanist) and the Hermetic Order of the Golden
> > Dawn.
>
> moronic. The level of ritual in the Catholic Church yields quite a
> level of similarity to the level of ritual commonly attributed to
> Wicca. Does this make them analogous?
Gerald Gardner was a IV° member of Crowley's OTO. His original rituals
contained much Crowley/OTO material. Even after the editing/removal of this
material by Doreen Valiente, the Gardnerian Great Rite still contains
word-for-word quotes from Crowley's _Gnostic Mass_; and Bill Heidrick, one of
OTO's top three officers, has stated that Gardnerian cord rituals contain
word-for-word quotations of OTO degree initiation rites.
Comparing Wicca with Crowley is by no means superficial, particularly the
Gardnerian variety of Wicca.
Furthermore, not only Gardnerian Wicca, but many other flavors as well, have
a strong influence from Ceremonial Magick that goes beyond Aleister Crowley.
Much of Gardner's material came from, for example, the Keys of Solomon. The
practice of calling the Watchtowers can hardly be said to derive from Celtic
agrarian religion.
Inasmuch as various Satanic traditions also draw upon the traditions of
Ceremonial Magick and/or the works of Aleister Crowley specifically, the
comparison with Wicca is not superficial.
Larry
---
cego...@geocities.com * ICQ: 1709079
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9306/
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on 10 Oct 1998 07:26:44
GMT, en...@no.spam.enemies.com (Rev. Illuminatus Maximus) intoned:
>In article <361d663e...@news.clt.bellsouth.net>, Spam me at your own
>risk <fidei.defens...@REMOVETHISbigfoot.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> None of these things make him
>> "a Satanist," unless you define ALL non-Christians as Satanists.
>
><snip>
>
>Now you are starting to understand the fundamentalist mentality.
Friend, I had all to great an understanding when I attended a
conservative Christian university in Greenville, SC.
>8-)
(P.S. -- I like the "shades." <g>)
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
02:33:51 -0400, "Candle Jack" <nospamf...@geocities.com> intoned:
>Stephanie Rendino wrote in message <6vmfe7$q...@stratus.CAM.ORG>...
>|Er, no. You're confusing Wicca and ritual magick, and there is a
>HUGE
>|difference! I would argue that Wicca is a religion and ritual magick
>is
>|not. One of the foremost practioners of the Golden Dawn was Dion
>Fortune,
>|an Anglican.
>
>
>What is the difference? I have a book of Wiccan ritual magic on my
>desk. How is the content substantively different from 'ritual
>magick'?
>--
Substantively different?
Ritual magic can be (and, frequently is) performed in a wide variety
of religious contexts, or even non-religious. Also, there is a
movement within Wicca that practices NO magic (called "Celebratory
Wicca") -- my practice of Wicca can be defined as Celebratory.
In Wicca, magic is a tool -- not unlike healing by "laying on of
hands" in certain branches of Christianity. Magic is not "central" to
the definition of Wicca.
(If you honestly feel that the context does not affect the "message,"
perhaps you should drop by alt.magick and tell them that -- but I
don't recommend it! <g> The crowd at alt.flame tends to be less
insulting.)
>Candle "My Karma ran over your Dogma" Jack
Hey, I thought that was a joke from our side of the fence <g>.
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Fri, 9 Oct 1998
22:39:59 -0400, Kevin T Rice <kr...@ic.sunysb.edu> intoned:
>
>
>On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 fidei.d...@bigfoot.NOSPAM.com wrote:
>
>>
>> You expect us to "believe" your authoritative book -- and yet you
>> tear down anything that doesn't agree.
>
> That is because we really do believe that book that we "expect you
>to believe". We would be be terribly hypocritical if we did not. And if
>we did not "tear down anything that" didn't agree, that would mean we did
>not believe what we say we believe, for we cannot rationally hold two
>contradictory beliefs.
I have no problem with the fact that Christians believe their sacred
book. I also have no problem that -- in accord with the teachings in
that book -- Christians attempt to tell others about the Christian
faith.
I have a great deal of problem with the fact that some "Christians,"
in the process of telling others about Christianity, accuse us of
monstrous acts. I have a great deal of problems with the fact that
some "Christians," in the process of telling others about
Christianity, accuse us of lies, murder, rape, cruelty, diabolism,
perversity, subversion of the state, subversion of the Christian
church, and general anti-sociability.
Why do these "Christians" tell lies about us?
>> You expect us to have "faith"
>> in your god -- and yet you call ours either "false gods" or "demons."
>
> That is because we really have faith in the God (capital G,
>believe me it makes all the difference - there is only on capital G god)
>so of course we call your false gods false gods and demons. It would be
>very odd if we did not. You are making it seem like this is is
>inconsistencey on our parts. It would be inconsistent if we behaved any
>differently.
Actually, no, I am neither suprised nor offended when Christians act
in accord with their scriptures.
I am quite suprised -- and offended -- when "Christians" do things
that are NOT in accord with their scripture.
The lies -- listed above, documentation is available upon request.
Harrasment, persecution, assault, destruction of property,
discrimination in employment, deliberate insults, slander, and hate.
Are these acts in accord with the Christian scriptures?
Are these act censured by the Christian community? When and where?
These actions -- done, supposedly, "in Jesus' name" -- are a flagrant
violation of Christian doctrine -- yet they seem to be largely
ignored by the Christian community. Why? Is it that we are not
Christians, and therefore not "important enough?"
Or is it that, as one "Christian" I know has speculated, there will
be a war against Wiccans, and we shall be killed -- in violation not
only of secular law, but of your scripture?
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
02:44:57 GMT, "The DataRat" <dat...@home.com> intoned:
[Quoted from a previous post by DataRat:
Message-ID: <FjqT1.206$EK2.7...@news.rdc1.az.home.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:53:09 GMT]
>>Personally,
>>Bro. Rat feels that we're better off talking to you than
>>burning you at the stake. ( We can always reserve that
>>for later ).
>"Jokes aside"
>
>It wasn't entirely a joke, my friend.
And how, precisely, am I to interpret that?
Would you burn me at the stake -- or (more correctly) "stone" me?
Could you do that?
And should I be worried about you -- or others like you -- coming to
my house in order to do that some dark night?
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
04:12:32 GMT, "Rev. Frank" <jfmj...@usa.net> intoned:
>(Taliesin of Earthstar) wrote:
>
>> Is it impossible to believe that I, who once practiced Christianity,
>> found it lacking? Is it impossible to believe that I found, in Wicca,
>> what I did not find within Christianity?
>
>
>No, not really.
>
>Not everyone will find Christianity fulfilling. God must 'fill' the
>person FIRST! With what? You may ask. FAITH!
>
<snip several Bible referrences>
Though you did drift away a tad from the main thrust of my post, I
would like to say this.
In light of the obvious concern for my soul that you have just
demonstrated, your actions provide a classic example as to why,
though I disagree with Christianity, I have a great deal of respect
for Christians.
Would that there was a way that Christians and Neo-Pagans could
actually "dialog" from a common ground -- unfortunately, it seem that
the best we can do is to debate -- hopefully with respect to each
other.
I salute you, friend, for -- to the best of my understanding -- you
"walk the walk."
Taliesin of Earthstar
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The DataRat
"...accuse us of lies, murder, rape, cruelty, diabolism,
perversity, subversion of the state, subversion of the
Christian church, and general anti-sociability."
Taliesin, some of this is not as irrational as it sounds.
If Wicca is indeed a false religion, then Wiccans are
guilty of lying. If Wicca is actually a doctrine of demons
( 1 Timothy 4:1 NASB ), then it is "diabolism".
If Wiccan ideas weaken the national character, and
are adopted by government, in that sense the State
is subverted. If those with Wiccan belief systems
infiltrate the church, then the Church is subverted.
The Reformed Rodent will pass on "general
anti-sociability" and the remainder.
"Are these acts in accord with the Christian scriptures?"
Scripture condemns vigilantism. Anyone practicing
~that~ is not a Christian.
As for "discrimination in employment": By law,
religious organizations can not be forced to hire people
who hold contrary beliefs. Otherwise, it is illegal to
discriminate on the basis of religion. Real Christians
obey the Biblical injunctions to follow the law ( Titus 3:1,
1 Peter 2:13-16, Romans 13:1 ).
Regarding "deliberate insults, slander, and hate":
What you may consider an insult may actually be truth-telling.
Please provide an example.
Again, provide an example of the "slander" you
reference. In what you have stated so far, some of it may
indeed be slander, but much of it is merely relating what
Scripture says about false religions.
Real Christians hate sin while loving the sinner. Might
you be confused about the distinction ?
"...a war against Wiccans, and we shall be killed
-- in violation not only of secular law, but of your scripture?"
As stated above, actual Christians will NOT violate
the secular law. But let's not fool ourselves. This
planet isn't big enough for both of us. The Reformed
Rodent doesn't think for a minute that post-modern
"tolerance" will long allow the Body of Christ to remain
peacefully. New Age, Wiccan, Post-Modern, Liberal,
et. al., pluralism DOESN'T include Christians.
We're engaged in a life-and-death struggle. Here on
earth, and for eternity.
Your Friend,
The DataRat
The DataRat
"Would you burn me at the stake -- or (more
correctly) 'stone' me? Could you do that?"
The Bible clearly teaches against such private
action. Vigilantism is proscribed by Scripture.
A Christian government, however, does not
tolerate false gods or false religions. Witches
are to be executed by the civil authorities.
But don't sweat it. It appears extremely unlikely
that the United states will have Christian government
any time soon.
The DataRat
The DataRat
"Would that there was a way that Christians and
Neo-Pagans could actually 'dialog' from a common
ground"
It's hard to imagine any "common ground" between
Wicca and Christianity. Maybe we both believe in
treating dogs and cats with kindness. We're diametrically
opposed on all essential issues.
Nothing wrong with debate, though. Unless you believe
truth is relative. In that case, debate is irrelevant and
silly. We believe in absolute truth, however, and -from
that perspective- ideas can contend.
The DataRat
Candle Jack
|>It wasn't the shape of the pentacle that I was referring to, it was
|>the method with which it is created.
|
|What do you mean by that?
In both religions, an invoking pentacle starts at the top and is
formed in a counterclockwise motion whereas a banishing pentacle
starts in the lower left hand corner and is formed in a clockwise
motion. I admitted that this was an off the cuff example and probably
not the strongest evidence of a shared link or genesis. I will
endeavour to provide a stronger example.
|Your point being---?
No more nebulous than your own...
|>Good point. Wiccans come in all flavours. I am most familiar with
|>the Goddess-Feminist type which is just as sexist.
|
|Yes, but Dianic Wicca is not meant for *you*.
I didn't claim to practice it I just said I was most familiar with it.
As a point of fact I don't consider -any- religion for me.
--
Regards,
Candle "" Jack
Astalis
Candle Jack wrote:
> Captain Spith wrote in message <361EF1...@teleport.com>...
> | I guess it is not innaccurate, then, to draw comparisons between
> |christians, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons, especially given their
> |shared history....
>
> Same Yhwh isn't it? None of the groups you mentioned were formed by
> dissatisfied Buddhists were they? Mormon's are just Christians with
> an extra book of scripture aren't they?
Actually, no since they deny even the basic doctrines/teachings
of Christianity and instead use their own. It should also be
noted that since they deny the Trinity they do not even
profess to worship the same God.
Astalis
--
"And yet there is a time
For everything that's under heaven.
A time to run, a time to stand and fight.
So in the face in cold despair,
No matter what seems right,
Remember darkness drives us to the light..."
**from Michael Card's "Under the Sun"**
-----------------------
astalis at epsi dot net
morning_light at juno dot com
ICQ! Num: 2453141#
-----------------------
Kevin T Rice
On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Candle Jack wrote:
> Taliesin of Earthstar wrote in message
> <361d663e...@news.clt.bellsouth.net>...
> |Precisely WHAT shared history?
>
> Many of the rituals and iconography of the Neo-Pagan movement have
> their genesis in Crowley's Golden Dawn. I will endeavour to provide
> some specific examples soon. The only one that comes to mind is the
> creation of Invoking and Banishing Pentacles(both are created the same
> way).
>
>
> |Wicca was developed in the early 20th century (earliest probable date
> |is 1939) by Gerald B. Gardner -- and was DESIGNED as being separate
> |from Satanism. Right from the beginning -- Gardner's first non-
> |fiction witchcraft book, _Witchcraft Today_ (London: Riders, 1954)
> |makes that distinction clear.
>
>
> The fact that Gardner feels the need to make a distinction makes me
> suspect, but I have not read the book so I cannot really give an
> informed opinion. You happen to have the ISBN? I must say that I am
> heartened by the fact that you did not put forth Wicca as an 'old
> religion'. Many Neo-Pagans are completely ignorant of the
> contemporary origins of their belief systems.
>
> |On the other hand, Satanism, in one form or another, has been reputed
> |to have been extant since medieval times -- however, much of the
> |documentation is suspect, as it was obtained under torture.
>
>
> I would expect that as long a Judeo-Christianity has been around,
> people have been accused of following Satan.
>
>
> |Christianity and Islam "emulate" many of the principals of Judaism --
> |so we shall assume that all of these are Jewish religions?
>
>
> They do share a common ancestry. Like a tree with a variety of
> branches(e.g.Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.).
>
> |POI: Aliester Crowley was many things -- a mountain climber, a poet,
> |an author, a social rebel -- and an egotist, who would use the
> |symbolism of "Satan" to gain attention. None of these things make him
> |"a Satanist," unless you define ALL non-Christians as Satanists. (He
> |was also a twit, as far as I can tell from his writings, but that is
> |just my opinion).
>
>
> All Satanists are Judeo-Christians, just a different branch of the
> tree.
>
> As for Crowley, what in your eyes would qualify him as a Satanist?
> I would posit that using Satanic symbolism in a ritual/ ceremonial
> context would qualify him as one.
Crowley himself identifies his "Holy Guardian Angel", Aiwass,
with, and this is a quote "Shaitan (Satan), or Set". That comes from his
"Congressus Con Daemonae" in his magnum opus "Magick". It's the part of
Book 4 where he explains the Prelimanary Invocation of the Bornless One in
the Goetia.
My fingers are burning from writing this vile crap. Please keep
Crowley out of these NGs, I beg you. It is bad enough my soul was stained
with his despicable influence once. I'd like to keep him away from my
brothers and sisters. I love them and don't want them to make the same
mistakes I've made.
> --
> Regards,
> Candle "Great Horned Gawd" Jack
>
>
>
>
Candle Jack
|Friend, it is not "Crowley's" Golden Dawn -- the G.D. was started by
|S. L. MacGregor-Mathers, William Wescott, and one other man (whose
|name I can't remember) in the 1880's. Crowley was a mere lad at the
|time.
Point taken.
|Not exactly the same, but quite similar -- and you fail to take into
|account the changes in Wiccan ritual since the 1950's.
I would expect that any ritual may change over the course of time.
Could you briefly elaborate on the changes? Are they less or more
similar?
|Does the fact that some of the earliest Christian apologists had to
|dispel the rumors of blood sacrifice make them "suspect?" Does the
|fact that Jewish apologists STILL have to defend against accusations
|of using the blood of unbaptised infants in the paschal bread make
|them "suspect?"
Like I said I haven't read the book. I am a skeptic by nature and am
always suspicious when someone makes an effort to point out
distinctions between themselves and another group.
|And do we live in peace?
Who does? How much peace do you think I have as the atheist son of a
minister? We choose our paths and must be willing to accept the
tribulation with the joy.
|As far as "accused of," in all probability most of those accused in
|the so-called "Burning Times" were innocent -- that doesn't make them
|any less dead.
I wasn't suggesting they were anything but accused. Accusing someone
of WItchcraft or Satanism was a convenient charge. A modern analogy
would be a charge of Pedophilia. No evidence is required, often the
accusation is sufficient proof of guilt in the public's eye.
I don't understand how you can feel a strong connection to the
"Burning Times" when the Neo-Pagan movement wasn't formed until this
century. I have the feeling that many Neo-Pagans have the need to be
portrayed as victims.
|After all, that is what you say of Wicca and Satanism.
I didn't say they were the same. I have never said they were the
same. But they are related in the same way that Christianity is
related to Judaism.
|What qualifies one as a Christian? The use of Christian symbolism in
|a ritual/ ceremonial context? If so, by your own statement above
|about Satanists being a "different branch of the [Christian] tree,"
|then Satanists are Christians!
Satanists are indeed Judeo-Christians. I have always said that.
Satanism does not exist outside of the context of Judeo-Christianity.
--
Regards,
Candle "Two turntables and a microphone" Jack
Candle Jack
| Actually, no since they deny even the basic doctrines/teachings
|of Christianity and instead use their own. It should also be
|noted that since they deny the Trinity they do not even
|profess to worship the same God.
The particulars of their brand of Judeo-Christianity takes nothing
from they fact that they are a sect of Judeo-Christianity. Like I
said, the sect didn't arise from dissatisfied Buddhists.
--
Regards,
Candle "inhalation directe du produit peut etre nocive" Jack
GoldRush
Kevin T Rice <kr...@ic.sunysb.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.96.981009223322.16241K-100000@sparky>...
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 fidei.d...@bigfoot.NOSPAM.com wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Fri, 09 Oct 1998
> > 15:53:09 GMT, "The DataRat" <dat...@home.com> intoned:
<snipped>
> > >The Reform Rodent believes that Jim and Ronda
> > >were probably requesting you delete Christian headers
> > >in your newsgroup replies.
Taliesin replies:
> > As is their right to request -- though I will admit that I have seen
> > more polite requests in my day. Indeed, DataRat, if we are to call a
> > spade a spade, the "request" was an order -- imperative, impolite,
> > and incorrect in its inferrences.
Jim and Ronda did not make a request. Ronda rebuked evil.
Ronda had no intention of being polite, but rather, to strongly
oppose the postings from "principalities, powers, and the rulers
of the darkness of this age; spiritual hosts of wickedness . ."
[Ephesians 6:12]
Taliesin states:
> > However, I grow increasingly tired of being lumped with Satanists.
> > Satanism (by whatever term it is called) is another path altogether --
> > one which I do not agree with, for what that is worth. Stipulated,
> > both are manifestly NON-Christian, and some Satanists are professedly
> > ANTI-Christian (also an important distinction), but we and they are
> > not the same, any more than the Satanists can say "Oh, you both
> > follow rules and ethics -- you're all the same."
There are only two kinds of people. Christians and non-Christians.
Saved or unsaved. Sinners or repentant sinners. Vessels of wrath
or vessels of mercy. [Romans 9:22&23]
A person serves one of two masters; Jesus Christ or the devil. You
may not practice diabolic rites, but you do serve Satan, as "white"
witches. You are "wolves in sheep's clothing" and I oppose you for
the sake of readers on these NGs. I will not let you deceive, and
convince others that your practices are harmless.
<snipped>
> > >Personally,
> > >Bro. Rat feels that we're better off talking to you than
> > >burning you at the stake. ( We can always reserve that
> > >for later ).
DataRat, you are not their brother (I hope!) and "what communion
has light with darkness?" [II Cor. 6:14b]
Taliesin replies:
> > Jokes aside (and I did appreciate it <g>) with reactions like this,
> > what is the point? Who would listen? Many Christians who expect us to
> > listen will not listen in return. Many Christians who expect us to
> > respect them will not respect us in return.
False teachers do not deserve a Christian's respect.
You are to be rebuked, with the hope you will learn that
your sorceries are sinful, and repent of your practices.
Taliesin states:
> > You expect us to "believe" your authoritative book -- and yet you
> > tear down anything that doesn't agree.
Kevin replies:
> That is because we really do believe that book that we "expect you
> to believe". We would be be terribly hypocritical if we did not. And if
> we did not "tear down anything that" didn't agree, that would mean we did
> not believe what we say we believe, for we cannot rationally hold two
> contradictory beliefs.
Amen, Kevin. If a Christian will not demand faith in the Word of God,
he is useless and without foundation himself! Anyone who does not
believe the Scriptures, but teaches that other gods and goddesses
exist, is a danger, an idolator, and a liar; thus a child of the devil.
Taliesin states:
> > You expect us to have "faith"
> > in your god -- and yet you call ours either "false gods" or "demons."
Kevin replies:
> That is because we really have faith in the God (capital G,
> believe me it makes all the difference - there is only on capital G god)
> so of course we call your false gods false gods and demons. It would be
> very odd if we did not. You are making it seem like this is is
> inconsistencey on our parts. It would be inconsistent if we behaved any
> differently.
Yes, there is only one God. The triune God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
All other gods are false, and are the product of the devil. Thus, Satanic.
No Christian is required to be "nice" to the devil or his issue.
Taliesin states:
> > You expect us to respect Christianity -- and yet, look at all the
> > lies that are being told about us, in the very name of Christ, whom
> > you claim to revere.
You attempt to
deceive good Christians on these NGs that your "religion" is compatible
with Christianity, and you are to be accepted as harmless . . .
(Like a serpent!!)
<snipped>
Taliesin states:
> > Is it impossible to believe that I, who once practiced Christianity,
> > found it lacking? Is it impossible to believe that I found, in Wicca,
> > what I did not find within Christianity?
First, Christianity is not something that is practiced. Christianity
is following the Savior, Jesus Christ, who brings His children out
of darkness, into light. [I Pet. 2:9] Once a Christian, always a
Christian. If you
left Christianity, you were never brought out of darkness to start with.
What you find in Wicca, is the self-satisfaction of wielding powers. You
defy
the power of God, by attempting to establish yourself as supernatural and
practicing rites of darkness. You have lists of gods and goddesses that
you idolize.
If you would repent of this desire to wield power;
confess the sinfulness of these sorceries, and cast yourself upon
the mercy of the true God, and beg for forgiveness for your evil past from
the Lord Jesus Christ, I would rejoice. Otherwise, you are the
enemy and I will rebuke you publically in order that you do not deceive.
<snipped>
Taliesin asks:
> > And is it impossible to respect the person, even if you disagree with
> > the beliefs? I know it is not impossible -- for I respect many of the
> > Christians I meet on these NG's. Yes, I disagree -- but I can still
> > show respect, and courtesy, to those Christians that I meet.
You can afford to respect Christians, because they can do you no harm.
We cannot respect you, though, because you can do harm to those
reading these posts, who you would deceive and keep enslaved to Satan.
We oppose and rebuke you for the sake of God's children who might
consider you harmless.
I would not be so harsh, except that I had my own experiences with the
occult, and "white magick." I also experienced a terrible episode of
extreme evil as a result of playing games with supposed "nice" witchcraft.
The evil was so real and so terrifying, that for the first time I realized
that
the opposite spirit world must be reality, too. This was when God revealed
Himself to me, and I fled the evil to the good! I found the true God in
the
Bible, and in gratitude for what Scriptures saved me from, will always
stand for the
truth found, therein.
Your practices are not to be accepted as a religious, nice activity. They
are false, evil and sinful, and I must warn the others. I truly regret you
were
ever drawn onto these Christian NGs, and would suggest that if you do not
like opposition, you stop posting here.
<snipped>
Ronda Rush
--
GoldRush
For Scriptures & Christian Studies
visit . .http://www.mlode.com/~jrrush
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
16:10:47 GMT, "The DataRat" <dat...@home.com> intoned:
>
>
>"...accuse us of lies, murder, rape, cruelty, diabolism,
>perversity, subversion of the state, subversion of the
>Christian church, and general anti-sociability."
>
>Taliesin, some of this is not as irrational as it sounds.
>If Wicca is indeed a false religion, then Wiccans are
>guilty of lying.
Cripes, DataRat, will you please stop and listen to yourself? Most
Christians *at the very least* allow for the possibility of being
deceived.
What of you -- do you accuse me of lying?
>If Wicca is actually a doctrine of demons
>( 1 Timothy 4:1 NASB ), then it is "diabolism".
In that case, I assume that you consider Buddhism to be diabolism?
DataRat, you may feel free to re-design the English language to suit
your particular concept of truth -- but I fear that your definition
would receive short shrift in most circles -- including Christians.
>
>If Wiccan ideas weaken the national character, and
>are adopted by government, in that sense the State
>is subverted.
Do they? In what ways -- documentation is requested.
>If those with Wiccan belief systems
>infiltrate the church, then the Church is subverted.
Again, I request documentation.
And for both of these, please consider this. If Wiccans are on a
course to DELIBERATELY "infiltrate" church and state with these
doctrines, then I will gladly state that yes, this would be
subversion. If the State and the Church are adopting similar
doctrines, but NOT THROUGH the actions of Wiccans, then I am afraid
that any accusation of "subversion" rings somewhat hollow.
>
>The Reformed Rodent will pass on "general
> anti-sociability" and the remainder.
>
So you will "pass on" the fact that some (who claim to be Christian)
accuse me -- me PERSONALLY, mind, as well as Wiccans as a class -- of
murder, rape, cruelty, and perversity?
Admittedly, DataRat, you don't know me -- have (by all odds) never
met me before in your life, and (again, by all odds) never will. Of
course you have no basis upon which to gauge my behavior or
proclivities.
Even under the laws of Kingdom-era Judaism (a much stricter code of
law, I am sure you will agree, than modern American law, in many
respects), a person was not judged as guilty without the word of at
least two witnesses.
Will you refuse to tolerate false witness, supposedly "in Jesus'
name?" Will you stand up to dispute those who lie about us?
Or will you stand by and say "It does not affect me -- this evil does
not come to my door."
>"Are these acts in accord with the Christian scriptures?"
>
>Scripture condemns vigilantism. Anyone practicing
>~that~ is not a Christian.
>
>As for "discrimination in employment": By law,
>religious organizations can not be forced to hire people
>who hold contrary beliefs.
Which law I have absolutely no argument with.
>Otherwise, it is illegal to
>discriminate on the basis of religion. Real Christians
>obey the Biblical injunctions to follow the law ( Titus 3:1,
>1 Peter 2:13-16, Romans 13:1 ).
Will you permit me to spring a hypothetical situation on you?
Let us say that you are in a managierial job -- personell <sp?>
department for a large retail chain. Let us say that you have two
candidates for the job -- equally qualified, splendid resumes, the
whole nine yards. One wears a small "cross" as a tieclasp, the other
a small "pentacle." Whom do you hire?
OK, unfair question, I know. But it happens, DataRat, it happens.
>Regarding "deliberate insults, slander, and hate":
>
>What you may consider an insult may actually be truth-telling.
>Please provide an example.
Provided in separate post on this thread. Please note that the
examples provided are NOT exhaustive.
>Real Christians hate sin while loving the sinner. Might
>you be confused about the distinction ?
No, I am quite aware of the distinction -- and, indeed, I have no
fear of "Real" Christians -- it is the false ones, those who are
willing to violate the law and resort to vigilanteism, that concern
me.
The problem is, those who are willing to violate the law also
consider themselves to be real Christians.
>"...a war against Wiccans, and we shall be killed
> -- in violation not only of secular law, but of your scripture?"
>
>
>As stated above, actual Christians will NOT violate
>the secular law. But let's not fool ourselves. This
>planet isn't big enough for both of us. The Reformed
>Rodent doesn't think for a minute that post-modern
>"tolerance" will long allow the Body of Christ to remain
>peacefully. New Age, Wiccan, Post-Modern, Liberal,
>et. al., pluralism DOESN'T include Christians.
>
>We're engaged in a life-and-death struggle. Here on
>earth, and for eternity.
The question is -- am I your enemy?
I am quite aware of the doctrines as stated in Eph. 6:12 -- but how
often do Christians remember that "their battle is NOT against flesh
and blood...."
I have never declared myself as the enemy of any Christian. If there
is a war, it is not of my choosing. Yes, in the interest of accuracy,
I do believe that Christianity is factually wrong on some points -- I
do not discuss them unless directly asked, and then only with persons
I know very well.
Does it matter to me that Christianity is factually wrong? Not
particularly. Does it matter that Christans attempt to convert me to
their (IMO incorrect) beliefs? not at all, especially since it means
that they are truly walking their path.
But it does matter to me that some few Christians think Wicca is
wrong, and BECAUSE we are wrong, that they can lie about us, slander
us, threaten us, shoot at us, arrest us (without just cause, as
defined by the laws of the state), harass us, and so on. It's not the
premise, DataRat, it's the progression from logic to action.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
fidei <DOT> defensor <AT> bigfoot <DOT> com
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
16:10:47 GMT, "The DataRat" <dat...@home.com> intoned:
>Regarding "deliberate insults, slander, and hate":
>
>What you may consider an insult may actually be truth-telling.
>Please provide an example.
"Cutting Edge" website
http://www.cuttingedge.org
Claims that witches are involved (along with Roman Catholics, Masons,
and the "New World Order") in a deliberate plan of subverting the
United States, and other, governments.
Ritchie, Tammie, "Perilous Times" website.
http://www.sounddoctrine.com/ptimes/index.htm
Claims that Wiccans worship Satan, and are trying to take over the
world political scene.
Van Natten, Steve, "Baalam's Ass" website,
http://www.balaams-ass.com/
Speaking of Laurie Cabot, "She is NOT any sort of genuine witch
unless she has sacrificed animals minimum to Satan or Lucifer. That
is a fact well known to the Craft, and they hate for this story to be
exposed."
(http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/warnings/cabot.htm)
Speaking of Tammy Ritchie: "WITCHES BITTERLY HATE
A COMMITTED CHRISTIAN WOMAN SINCE WITCHCRAFT DIRTIES
FEMINITY AND KILLS BABY GIRLS." (caps are his)
(http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/warnings/witchcrf.htm)
"Cohen" G. Reckart, Thunder Ministries website
http://www.thunderministries.com/IJN/wicca.html
Claims that "all" Wiccans are currently involved in perversity
(exhibitionism and pedophilia); claims "hundreds of Wicca & Satanic
occult killings in America" (unsolved, supposedly, because of
infiltration into law enforcement, medical fields, and the courts).
SIDE NOTE: This particular page also claims that all female witches
die their hair red.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
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Rev. Frank
> Though you did drift away a tad from the main thrust of my post, I
> would like to say this.
>
> In light of the obvious concern for my soul that you have just
> demonstrated, your actions provide a classic example as to why,
> though I disagree with Christianity, I have a great deal of respect
> for Christians.
If I have shown any Christ-like love and compassion it is NOT of me but
He who dwells in me!
(Col 1:26-28 KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and
from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God
would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among
the Gentiles; which IS CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory: Whom we preach,
warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may
present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
>
> I salute you, friend, for -- to the best of my understanding -- you
> "walk the walk."
And as it is said above "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching
every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ
Jesus:"
I MUST warn you and do so with wisdom and prayerful hope that YOU may be
perfect in Christ Jesus. But I will let GoldRush speak for me. They
wrote as I feel...
GoldRush wrote:
> A person serves one of two masters; Jesus Christ or the devil. You
> may not practice diabolic rites, but you do serve Satan, as "white"
> witches. You are "wolves in sheep's clothing" and I oppose you for
> the sake of readers on these NGs. I will not let you deceive, and
> convince others that your practices are harmless.
>
>
> You are to be rebuked, with the hope you will learn that
> your sorceries are sinful, and repent of your practices.
>
> Your practices are not to be accepted as a religious, nice activity. They
> are false, evil and sinful, and I must warn the others.
--
Peace Be With You
Rev. Frank
Visit:
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/i/n/t/intmismin/index1.html
Rev. Frank
sinner"!
Most Christians prior to conversion did ALL sort of evil and despicable
things seemingly worse then the practice of wicca. You have the complete
and full right to do or practice as you please without fear of
civil/State reprisal.
Just wanted to make my position clear. Also to share with you *MY*
Christian beliefs.
I believe in the God of Abraham.
I believe in God's Son, Jesus the Christ.
I believe I'm justified by the 'free' gift of grace through Christ
thereby becoming a child of God.
I believe as a child of God I must obey Christ's commands.
#1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul
and with all your mind.
#2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
#3. In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you.
#4. Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one
another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you
love one another.
Astalis
Candle Jack wrote:
> Astalis wrote in message <361FA9A8...@epsi.net>...
> | Actually, no since they deny even the basic doctrines/teachings
> |of Christianity and instead use their own. It should also be
> |noted that since they deny the Trinity they do not even
> |profess to worship the same God.
>
> The particulars of their brand of Judeo-Christianity takes nothing
> from they fact that they are a sect of Judeo-Christianity. Like I
> said, the sect didn't arise from dissatisfied Buddhists.
I'll grant that they took certain ideas and such from
Christianity and twisted them to form their own brand
of a belief system...but that doesn't make them Christian
any more than a practioner of witchcraft can be classified
as a Hindu for taking some of their ideas and making them
their own.
At least, that's the point were I'm coming from...
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
15:10:29 -0400, "Candle Jack" <nospamf...@geocities.com> intoned:
>|Not exactly the same, but quite similar -- and you fail to take into
>|account the changes in Wiccan ritual since the 1950's.
>
>
>I would expect that any ritual may change over the course of time.
>Could you briefly elaborate on the changes? Are they less or more
>similar?
As this is off topic for these NG's, I'll respond in e-mail.
>|And do we live in peace?
>
>
>Who does? How much peace do you think I have as the atheist son of a
>minister? We choose our paths and must be willing to accept the
>tribulation with the joy.
OK, "peace" may be a bit to ask for.
Perhaps I should have asked "When do the 'Christians' declare war
against Wicca, or do we just wait for the car-bomb."
And please note -- as DataRat said, and I agree: "Real Christians "
do not engage in vigilanteism. However, the pseudo-Christians who are
willing to violate secular law also see themselves as "Christians."
>|As far as "accused of," in all probability most of those accused in
>|the so-called "Burning Times" were innocent -- that doesn't make them
>|any less dead.
>
>
>I wasn't suggesting they were anything but accused. Accusing someone
>of WItchcraft or Satanism was a convenient charge. A modern analogy
>would be a charge of Pedophilia. No evidence is required, often the
>accusation is sufficient proof of guilt in the public's eye.
>
>I don't understand how you can feel a strong connection to the
>"Burning Times" when the Neo-Pagan movement wasn't formed until this
>century. I have the feeling that many Neo-Pagans have the need to be
>portrayed as victims.
I don't, personally, except as an example of religious persecution,
and that it is NOT relevant to either Neo-Pagan or modern Christian
cultures. Simply the biggest example I could think of that would be
fairly universally remembered and understood.
>|After all, that is what you say of Wicca and Satanism.
>
>I didn't say they were the same. I have never said they were the
>same. But they are related in the same way that Christianity is
>related to Judaism.
Point taken. I *disagree* concerning Wicca, but have insufficient
documentation. (Gotta hate it when that happens).
>|What qualifies one as a Christian? The use of Christian symbolism in
>|a ritual/ ceremonial context? If so, by your own statement above
>|about Satanists being a "different branch of the [Christian] tree,"
>|then Satanists are Christians!
>
>Satanists are indeed Judeo-Christians. I have always said that.
>Satanism does not exist outside of the context of Judeo-Christianity.
Oh, boy, are we gonna get flamed for this one <g>
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
14:57:30 -0400, Kevin T Rice <kr...@ic.sunysb.edu> intoned:
>
> Crowley himself identifies his "Holy Guardian Angel", Aiwass,
>with, and this is a quote "Shaitan (Satan), or Set". That comes from his
>"Congressus Con Daemonae" in his magnum opus "Magick". It's the part of
>Book 4 where he explains the Prelimanary Invocation of the Bornless One in
>the Goetia.
> My fingers are burning from writing this vile crap. Please keep
>Crowley out of these NGs, I beg you. It is bad enough my soul was stained
>with his despicable influence once. I'd like to keep him away from my
>brothers and sisters. I love them and don't want them to make the same
>mistakes I've made.
>
Kevin, in all reality I did not come here to defend Crowley -- and I
had no clue that you had had a problem with this field.
I shall endevor to refrain from bringing him up again -- however, I
cannot guarantee that the topic will not come up, as the topics are
somewhat connected. You might wish to consider "ignoring" or kill-
filing this thread, friend.
Please realise that I had no intent to bring back painful memories.
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on 10 Oct 1998 20:19:03
GMT, "GoldRush" <jrr...@mlode.com> intoned:
>Jim and Ronda did not make a request. Ronda rebuked evil.
>Ronda had no intention of being polite, but rather, to strongly
>oppose the postings from "principalities, powers, and the rulers
>of the darkness of this age; spiritual hosts of wickedness . ."
>[Ephesians 6:12]
Mrs. Rush, the verses that you quote begins with "For we wrestle not
against flesh and blood, ...." I assure you, madam, I am quite
corporeal.
>
>Taliesin states:
>> > However, I grow increasingly tired of being lumped with Satanists.
>> > Satanism (by whatever term it is called) is another path altogether --
>> > one which I do not agree with, for what that is worth. Stipulated,
>> > both are manifestly NON-Christian, and some Satanists are professedly
>> > ANTI-Christian (also an important distinction), but we and they are
>> > not the same, any more than the Satanists can say "Oh, you both
>> > follow rules and ethics -- you're all the same."
>
>There are only two kinds of people. Christians and non-Christians.
>Saved or unsaved. Sinners or repentant sinners. Vessels of wrath
>or vessels of mercy. [Romans 9:22&23]
>
>A person serves one of two masters; Jesus Christ or the devil. You
>may not practice diabolic rites, but you do serve Satan, as "white"
>witches. You are "wolves in sheep's clothing" and I oppose you for
>the sake of readers on these NGs. I will not let you deceive, and
>convince others that your practices are harmless.
>
>Taliesin replies:
>> > Jokes aside (and I did appreciate it <g>) with reactions like this,
>> > what is the point? Who would listen? Many Christians who expect us to
>> > listen will not listen in return. Many Christians who expect us to
>> > respect them will not respect us in return.
>
>False teachers do not deserve a Christian's respect.
>
> You are to be rebuked, with the hope you will learn that
> your sorceries are sinful, and repent of your practices.
And, having been "rebuked," do you propose that I will curl up by the
fronds? Stop posting? Go away?
Frankly, I am less than concerned with what Christian doctrine has to
say about the religion of Wicca. I am greatly concerned with the
accusations, made by a minority of Christians, of ritual murder,
ritual rape and child molestation.
And I am somewhat concerned about when some pseudo-Christian will
take it into their head to come over to my house with a cross and a
can of gasoline. Or with a gun.
>Taliesin states:
>> > You expect us to respect Christianity -- and yet, look at all the
>> > lies that are being told about us, in the very name of Christ, whom
>> > you claim to revere.
>
>You attempt to
>deceive good Christians on these NGs that your "religion" is compatible
>with Christianity, and you are to be accepted as harmless . . .
>(Like a serpent!!)
I have never said that Wicca is compatable with Christianity.
>Taliesin asks:
>> > And is it impossible to respect the person, even if you disagree with
>> > the beliefs? I know it is not impossible -- for I respect many of the
>> > Christians I meet on these NG's. Yes, I disagree -- but I can still
>> > show respect, and courtesy, to those Christians that I meet.
>
>You can afford to respect Christians, because they can do you no harm.
So what weapon shall I use against the (false, IMO) "Christian" who
threatens to "kill the Satanist [deleted obscenity]?" Harsh language?
>Your practices are not to be accepted as a religious, nice activity. They
>are false, evil and sinful, and I must warn the others. I truly regret you
>were
>ever drawn onto these Christian NGs, and would suggest that if you do not
>like opposition, you stop posting here.
Dear lady, I have absolutely no problem with opposition.
I have a great deal of problem with lies, threats, and attempts at
violence.
Do you want me to stop posting on these NG's? Then perhaps Christians
should start policing their own. I know -- it wont work: the problem
with that proposal is that "church discipline" is difficult to
enforce beyond the level of the local church -- there are similar
problems in Wicca, as there is no "centralized authority."
Do you believe that I am a spiritual danger to others? That is your
priveledge. But do not believe -- even for one minute -- that I shall
refrain from exposing the lies, poor scholarship, and overly
credulous nature of those "Christians" who claim that Wiccans are
murderers, rapists, and kidnappers.
As for your rebuke -- I have never, and shall never, attempt to
dissuade a Christian from their path. But I shall expose lies -- no
matter the source -- and I defy any to say "Hold, it is enough."
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
22:51:17 GMT, "Rev. Frank" <jfmj...@usa.net> intoned:
>
>I MUST warn you and do so with wisdom and prayerful hope that YOU may be
>perfect in Christ Jesus. But I will let GoldRush speak for me. They
>wrote as I feel...
>
>GoldRush wrote:
>
>>
>> You are to be rebuked, with the hope you will learn that
>> your sorceries are sinful, and repent of your practices.
Then perhaps you should also read my response to Mrs. Rush's rebuke.
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sat, 10 Oct 1998
16:16:00 GMT, "The DataRat" <dat...@home.com> intoned:
>"Would you burn me at the stake -- or (more
>correctly) 'stone' me? Could you do that?"
>
>The Bible clearly teaches against such private
>action. Vigilantism is proscribed by Scripture.
>A Christian government, however, does not
>tolerate false gods or false religions. Witches
>are to be executed by the civil authorities.
If you use this standard as a definition, then America never has had -
- - though there was a local example (the original Massachusets colony
charter).
>But don't sweat it. It appears extremely unlikely
>that the United states will have Christian government
>any time soon.
No, DataRat, it does not. But there are those who would bring back
such a government -- the technical (secular) term for such a
government is an "eclesiocracy. Such a government would, literally,
require scrapping the current Constitution, or at least the Bill of
Rights. Do you advocate such a move?
If you ever have the opportunity, might I recommend a novelette by
Robert Heinlein called "If this goes on...."
Taliesin of Earthstar
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Rev. Frank
You asked me to read your response to GoldRush. So I will answer here as
well.
(Taliesin of Earthstar) wrote:
> And, having been "rebuked," do you propose that I will curl up by the
> fronds? Stop posting? Go away?
NO, NO, NO.
> Frankly, I am less than concerned with what Christian doctrine has to
> say about the religion of Wicca. I am greatly concerned with the
> accusations, made by a minority of Christians, of ritual murder,
> ritual rape and child molestation.
And we should ALL be! People who do these things for any reason should
be dealt with quickly and harshly.
> And I am somewhat concerned about when some pseudo-Christian will
> take it into their head to come over to my house with a cross and a
> can of gasoline. Or with a gun.
And we ALL should be concerned for your civil rights and mine.
> I have never said that Wicca is compatable with Christianity.
And because of this is why I tell you, look to Christ!
> I have a great deal of problem with lies, threats, and attempts at
> violence.
You will NOT find this from me!
> Do you want me to stop posting on these NG's?
You may do as you please. However I will from time to time remind you of
the love and grace of Christ Jesus.
> Do you believe that I am a spiritual danger to others?
Maybe?! However you may lead someone to seek the TRUTH.
(John 14:6 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.