Learning to Love the Homosexuals in Your Life
Jim Upchurch
condoning sin. We are indeed to not only love our brothers, but
our enemies as well. However there is a very real danger in accepting
a sin, whatever it may be, into our lives. We are then following ourselves
instead of the Lord and justifying our actions. This in no way excludes
anybody who is seeking the truth. Once we accept that truth and
say it is what we turn our lives over to we are expected adopt a higher
standard of behavior as put forth in Scripture. If we don't we are still
living in the old flesh and possibly corrupting a brother along with ourselves.
It would not be good for the Church to let this happen, hense the stern warnings
in Scripture.
Disagreeing or not accepting something that you know is false is not hate.
Your point is often made by homosexuals. They say "Jesus is about love".
Well, yes He most certainly is, but it would be reckless to not realize that He
is also about separating the sheep from the goats for His Kingdom.
--
Jim Upchurch
remove x in name to reply
Dolf Boek
the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if
you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax
collectors do the same?" [Matthew 5:45-46]
Jesus demonstrated the bestowal of grace as God's favour, in the various
gospel stories concerning the healing of the blind. And in so doing, drew
upon a very important concept in facilitating communication with people.
Despite it being immediately apparent to him that they were blind, Jesus
still asked a question, "What is lacking in your life, which, when given,
would restore your dignity?" In other words, he stopped, asked and listened:
"So Jesus stood still and called them, and said, 'What do you want me to do
for you?'" [Matthew 20:32, Mark 10:51, Luke 18:41]
This story ties together two proclamations by an incapable humanity,
portrayed by the blind man, as an example of faith and forgiveness in
anticipation of God's imperial rule: "Have mercy on us, O Lord, son of
David" and "Lord, that our eyes may be opened". His proclamation is one of
faith because he recognises that the Lord has promised one day to restore
humanity's decomposed dignity. The multitudes could not put to silence his
proclamation of regard and hope in the realisation of God's promise.
Jesus was here illustrating a very important principle concerning the
commandment "To regard another as yourself." It's all about understanding
the concept of 'self.'. It is not about imposing your concept of self upon
another. In other words it doesn't mean: "if it's alright for me, it's good
enough for them." Nor does it mean that "you overwhelm another with your
generosity." It's not actually about imposing your values on another. It's
actually quite the opposite. Its about their concept of 'self' and meeting
that concept of 'self'. At the very least, it means: ensuring that we do not
infringe another's dignity. And it has as it's opposite boundary, the limits
of what we can endure concerning our own concept of 'self.' The two can be
said to become one only when neither boundaries are infringed. In other
words, when another person's concept of 'self' is matched to my concept of
'self', we have one mind as one spirit: "Be of the same mind towards one
another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble.
Do not be wise in your own opinion." [Romans 12:16]
As the story of the blind man (and who of us isn't) teaches us, it is
vitally important within communications, to show respect for the things
which dignify the other person. These are the very same things, by which we
would continue to show regard to ourselves. When we understand what
dignifies a person, then we can begin to understand the best approach to
communication. When such dialogue also falls within your own concept of
'self,' then you can be said to have arrived at a concept of unity which is
mandated by the commandment I've heard paraphrased this way-"Do unto others
as you would have them do unto you."
This same principle applies to loving our enemies. The Lord's commandment
here is to "do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return." How would you
know what to lend (as a gift for a debt), unless they made it known to you
first? "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in
return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest.
For he is kind to the unthankful and evil." [Luke 6:35]
And again, Jesus in another place, gave instruction on what it is to reflect
the perfection of the Father. I'm not sure why the Pharisees disliked the
tax collectors so much, [Matthew 9:10-11] but an interesting observation can
be made from the following gospel story: "And if you greet your brethren
only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do
so?" [Matthew 5:47]
It simply isn't enough for the Pharisees to salute their brethren and the
tax collectors salute their brethren mutually exclusive of one another. If
the Pharisees were to fulfill the spirit of the commandment, it would be to
identify what is important to the tax collector's concept of 'self.' In this
case it would be to salute. Since saluting does not fall outside the
Pharisees own value system, the most desirable outcome here is the giving of
a salute to the tax collector as though it was given by one of their own.
And so we get to the point which I wanted to address. That being, the nature
of our dialogue which exists between the Christian community of faith and
those gay men and lesbians presently excluded from participation within it.
I'd like to present two scenarios for your consideration: Judy is a recent
participant to your Internet community of faith, which is an electronic
discussion group.
Judy readily identifies as an intersexed person. According to the normal
conventions of language, Judy would be afforded the use of a pronoun which
reflected the gender characteristics of her name. The use of a male pronoun
in this instance, is disrespectful to her sense of 'self,' as her epicentre
of dignity.
George has been a participant in the life and vitality of your local church
for many years but remains an intensely private individual. One day he
brings his male friend to church. There is unmistakably a bond of affection
between them. George announces that he and his partner of 10 years standing,
want to conduct a celebratory union ceremony at the church, as a public
declaration of their commitment towards each other. The natural principle of
our Christian faith is built on commitment, which is derived from God's
continued regard for us, despite our incapable humanity. Your church gives
consent because they value the virtue of union/marriage which has it's
foundation in commitment and not in heterosexuality. Even heterosexuals who
exist outside the community of faith are "marrying and given in marriage"
[Matthew 24:38]
If we are to give due regard to God's imperial rule--to regard your
neighbour as yourself, we would recognise that it, rather than our
prejudice, is the foundation principle and guidance within our spiritual
life of faith. It is the key of practicality to understanding each of these
scenarios and is applied equitably and universally. Whether the activity, is
the executing of a righteous judgement, [Matthew 18:16] which looks not on
the outward appearance, [John 7:24] or the 'gathering' together [Matthew
18:20] of others for whatever honorable purpose. We need to recognise that
whenever two or three are joined together, in compliance to this testimony
of commitment, as the law of faith, the Lord is part of that union.
To give compliance to God's imperial rule, means we live with a clear
conscience according to the liberty of the Lord's commandment: "Assuredly, I
say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever
you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you if two you
agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them
by my Father in heaven." [Matthew 18:18-19]
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one
mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Greet
one another with an holy kiss. All the saints salute you. The grace of the
Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost,
be with you all. Amen." [2 Corinthians 13:11-14]
Dolf Boek
Winner: 1997 Rainbow Community Award - "Leadership by gay male"
Author: 'Androgynous Christian' http://www.netlink.com.au/~dolf
Email: do...@netlink.com.au
Please note I do not want unsolicited email which promotes or sells a good
or service.
Dolf Boek
Abraham, Moses and David all had one thing in common--fidelity to the
covenant obligations resulted in the blessing in the abundance of
fruitfulness and multiplicity as progeny. You may care to check the biblical
references for yourself: [Genesis 1:27-28, Genesis 9:1-2, Genesis 17:20-21,
Genesis 22:17-18, Genesis 26:4-5, Deuteronomy 7:12-14, 2 Samuel 7:8-17]
The fulfilment of this abundance is manifested in the covenant established
by Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit "That the blessing of Abraham might
come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise
of the Spirit through faith." [Galatians 3:14]
Earlier in this discussion thread, I raised the point about Christians
committing 'spiritual onanism' and I don't think you caught the gravity of
what I was saying. Let me therefore explain it for you:
"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the
LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and
marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed
should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's
wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his
brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew
him also." [Genesis 38:10 KJV]
Onan, in believing his brother Er was evil, attempted to excuse his failure
to fulfill his covenant obligations towards him which as the firstborn, were
granted by the promise of birthright. Onan preferred to go through the
motions of covenant procreational fidelity, but instead, at the critical
moment caused his seed to be spilled onto the ground as an act of
defilement.
There is no doubt that within the New Testament, as I have already shown,
the bestowal of abundance and the hope for perpetuity is manifested by the
Holy Spirit. In the following text, the Holy Spirit is actually referred to
as 'sperma' as in male sperm. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not
his brother." [1 John 3:10]
Given, that image, I'd like to return to my previous comment "Of course you
are more than welcome. Since the Holy Spirit, as our hope for eternity,
transcends our gender, I would hope that my friends here will show abundance
in regard to the needs and dignity of others in Christ. We are not given to
that gnostic practice of spiritual onanism here."
I urge you not to turn from your solemn covenant oath as to the obligation
of a Christian to 'love all people unconditionally.' Especially so, as God
has shown it to be design for all humanity. No matter, how you care to
rationalise it, an act of judgment made against humanity on the basis of
their humanity, stands at variance to the covenant obligation and is an act
of grievance of the Holy Spirit through committing an act of 'spiritual
onanism.'
The measure of judgment which you make in your breach of the covenant oath,
will most assuredly give rise to them being returned to you. Do not be
tempted to judge, thinking your prejudice is in accord with Scripture.
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater,
he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and
multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he
obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for
confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more
abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his
counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it
was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have
fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have
as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into
that within the veil;" [Hebrews 6:13-19]
--
Dolf Boek
Winner: 1997 Rainbow Community Award - "Leadership by gay male"
Author: 'Androgynous Christian' http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek
Email: dolf...@bigpond.com
ICQ Pager: 377...@pager.mirabilis.com
"Refresh a sole today -- wash someone's feet"
Please note I do not want unsolicited email which promotes or sells a good
or service.
Jim Upchurch <ran...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
Jim Upchurch
, I would hope that my friends here will show abundance
>in regard to the needs and dignity of others in Christ. We are not given to
>that gnostic practice of spiritual onanism here."
>
>I urge you not to turn from your solemn covenant oath as to the obligation
>of a Christian to 'love all people unconditionally.' Especially so, as God
>has shown it to be design for all humanity. No matter, how you care to
>rationalise it, an act of judgment made against humanity on the basis of
>their humanity, stands at variance to the covenant obligation and is an act
>of grievance of the Holy Spirit through committing an act of 'spiritual
>onanism.'
>Dolf Boek
Oh I got ypuir point alright. I'd like to know where you get off telling
people that by not accepting an unbiblical lifestyle they are committing the
equivalent of spiritual Onanism ? You seem to mention genitals and sperm
alot to make your "finer" points. As I stated earlier, remaining steadfast
to what we are called to be is not the equivalent of hate, Onanism,
homophobia, or any other tactic you care to throw out there. I realize this
is against the wisdom of the world, but I don't worship the world.
What does the Bible have to say about morality for Christians ?
How about 1 Peter 1:14 ?
As obedient children do not be conformed to the former lusts which
were yours in your ignorance.
15 But like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in
all your behavior 16 because it is written " You shall be holy, for I am
Holy."
Or Ephesians 5:5 ?
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person
or covetous man, who is an idolator, has an inheritance in the Kingdom
of Christ and God.
6 Let no one decieve you with empty words, for because of these things
the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
And Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey
Him the source of eternal salvation.
I would say that it is you who are guilty of spiritual Onanism. You are taking
the fruits of the Lord and going through the motions without the commitment.
joinernow
contraversy. Whatever, it is still true that" while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for our sins." Whatever the sin,
God has it covered, and is willing for anyone to accept Him, and turn from
this and into
His Kingdom. God bless....
Dolf Boek wrote in message ...
>Jim Upchurch <ran...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Disagreeing or not accepting something that you know is false is not hate.
>Your point is often made by homosexuals. They say "Jesus is about love".
>Well, yes He most certainly is, but it would be reckless to not realize
that
>He is also about separating the sheep from the goats for His Kingdom.
>
>Do show me one example where Jesus pointed to the sins of others and made a
>proclamation of judgment. The only example you are likely to find is where
>religionists like you were condemned.
>
>
>
>--
>
>Dolf Boek
>
>Winner: 1997 Rainbow Community Award - "Leadership by gay male"
>Email: dolf...@bigpond.com
>ICQ Pager: 377...@pager.mirabilis.com
>
>"Refresh a sole today -- wash someone's feet"
>
Dolf Boek
Disagreeing or not accepting something that you know is false is not hate.
Your point is often made by homosexuals. They say "Jesus is about love".
Well, yes He most certainly is, but it would be reckless to not realize that
He is also about separating the sheep from the goats for His Kingdom.
DOLF BOEK RESPONDS:
Do show me one example where Jesus pointed to the sins of others and made a
proclamation of judgment. The only example you are likely to find is where
religionists like you were condemned.
--
Dolf Boek
Winner: 1997 Rainbow Community Award - "Leadership by gay male"
Author: 'Androgynous Christian' http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek
Email: dolf...@bigpond.com
ICQ Pager: 377...@pager.mirabilis.com
"Refresh a sole today -- wash someone's feet"
Please note I do not want unsolicited email which promotes or sells a good
or service.
Dolf Boek
Oh I got ypuir point alright. I'd like to know where you get off telling
people that by not accepting an unbiblical lifestyle they are committing
the equivalent of spiritual Onanism ? You seem to mention genitals and sperm
alot to make your "finer" points. As I stated earlier, remaining steadfast
to what we are called to be is not the equivalent of hate, Onanism,
homophobia, or any other tactic you care to throw out there. I realize this
is against the wisdom of the world, but I don't worship the world. What
does the Bible have to say about morality for Christians ?
DOLF BOEK RESPONDS:
My dear fellow, the Kingdom of Heaven is all about the sovereignty of the
individual. It is not about imposing your beliefs upon another as
proclamation of your virtue and their diminishment as the world seeks to do.
How then are you any different to the world?
Rowland Croucher
neither liberal nor conservative. See our website, and type 'Homosexuality'
in the keyword search...
Shalom! Rowland Croucher (rowl...@mira.net)
John Mark Ministries (resources for pastors/leaders)
Worldwide F.W.Boreham Trading Post
Website (1900 articles) - http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm
List: clergy-...@pastornet.net.au (SUBSCRIBE on subject-line)
Dolf Boek wrote in message ...
>Jim Upchurch <ran...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Disagreeing or not accepting something that you know is false is not hate.
>Your point is often made by homosexuals. They say "Jesus is about love".
>Well, yes He most certainly is, but it would be reckless to not realize
that
>He is also about separating the sheep from the goats for His Kingdom.
>
>DOLF BOEK RESPONDS:
>Do show me one example where Jesus pointed to the sins of others and made a
>proclamation of judgment. The only example you are likely to find is where
>religionists like you were condemned.
>
>
>
>--
>
>Dolf Boek
>
>Winner: 1997 Rainbow Community Award - "Leadership by gay male"
>Author: 'Androgynous Christian' http://www.users.bigpond.com/dolfboek
>Email: dolf...@bigpond.com
>ICQ Pager: 377...@pager.mirabilis.com
>
>"Refresh a sole today -- wash someone's feet"
>