Re: Monkfish
Adonis
"Sanity's Little Helper" <elv...@noshpam.org> wrote in message
news:i5nn4rqekcvv$.1kwj2clywhcva$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Think you're clever? Then why are you riding shotgun for a psychopathic
> troll? If you continue to interject in threads that are none of your
> business with nothing but stupid questions that betray your ignorance and
> stupidity, then you will get a slapping down with increasing severity and
> increasing frequency. That's dependent on your behaviour, think about it,
> get a clue and modify it accordingly. It's up to you.
>
> --
> David Silverman
> aa #2208
> Defender of Civilisation
> Lord Mayor of Dis
> Lawful copyright holder of the term "Earthquack".
>
> Not authentic without this signature.
If you pay attention to his headers and search other groups you'll find him all
over the place. Just look for messages with a header ID with *@ptd.net in it.
The messages always follow the same pattern and same writing style. The only
thing that has really changed is that he does not use as many names or
fictitious e-mail address.
monkfish
I can make up hundreds of email addresses
and also use many Google accounts.
But if you are looking for me to talk about theology,
you can simply post here: alt.christnet.theology.
--
monkfish
* The followup-to header is set to alt.christnet.theology.
** alt.atheism is removed from the groups header.
Adonis
"monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
news:PeGdnTuQCpsf8bLV...@ptd.net...
> Adonis wrote:
>
>>
>> "Sanity's Little Helper" <elv...@noshpam.org> wrote in message
>> news:i5nn4rqekcvv$.1kwj2clywhcva$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>> Think you're clever? Then why are you riding shotgun for a psychopathic
>>> troll? If you continue to interject in threads that are none of your
>>> business with nothing but stupid questions that betray your ignorance and
>>> stupidity, then you will get a slapping down with increasing severity and
>>> increasing frequency. That's dependent on your behaviour, think about it,
>>> get a clue and modify it accordingly. It's up to you.
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Silverman
>>> aa #2208
>>> Defender of Civilisation
>>> Lord Mayor of Dis
>>> Lawful copyright holder of the term "Earthquack".
>>>
>>> Not authentic without this signature.
>>
>> If you pay attention to his headers and search other groups you'll find
>> him all over the place. Just look for messages with a header ID with
>> *@ptd.net in it. The messages always follow the same pattern and same
>> writing style. The only thing that has really changed is that he does not
>> use as many names or fictitious e-mail address.
>
>
> I can make up hundreds of email addresses
> and also use many Google accounts.
Yes Mike, I know, you have been doing so for many years now.
bob young
It shouldn't matter too much,
the painful style will show thru, regardless of how many he uses.
monkfish
My questions are painful to you
mainly because of your blind faith.
Atheists have blind faith in their ability
to already know of all actual and possible ways
to prove anything actual or possible.
They cannot even dream of the possibility that
there could be physical forces not yet discovered
if not in this world than in other possible worlds.
They cannot even dream of the possibility that
there could be many more dimensions not yet discovered
if not in this world than in other possible worlds.
Can you tell the difference between
"I don't be believe in any god" and
"There is no god of any kind whatsoever"?
Do you think people would like you
if you keep on telling them
"Your father is a liar and
you are a fool to believe him"?
Especially when you have never met their father
and have no idea who he is?
Pastor Frank
> Sanity's Little Helper wrote:
>> monkfish <monkfish@nowhere> barked:
>>> Sanity's Little Helper wrote:
>>>
>>>> Think you're clever? Then why are you riding shotgun for a psychopathic
>>>> troll? If you continue to interject in threads that are none of your
>>>> business with nothing but stupid questions that betray your ignorance
>>>> and stupidity, then you will get a slapping down with increasing
>>>> severity and increasing frequency. That's dependent on your behaviour,
>>>> think about it, get a clue and modify it accordingly. It's up to you.
>>>
>>> Do you have any interest in theology?
>>
>> Civilisation has an interest in theology. It's survival rests on
>> eradicating it.
>
> You seem to be confusing theology with blind faith.
> Our survival could well rest on reducing blind faith.
> Atheists have blind faith in their ability
> Therefore, they cannot understand anything
> outside their narrow-minded scheme of things.
> The only way to talk to them is to show that
> what they believe has some internal inconsistency.
>
Atheism is only "internally consistent" if one discounts all alternative
models a priori.
Thom Madura
Blind faith is almost the very definition of faith in religion. The
religious have been indoctrinated with things that they KNOW cannot be
proven even at a very basic level and believe even in the shadow of
mountains of evidence against their claims. They never use logic to test
religions claims and ignore what is going on around them.
Even when the Largest Christian denominations have recognized evolution
as the origin of the species - they continue to hold to a model of
creation that simply doesn't make sense based on the proof of evolution.
WE have proof the earth revolves around the sun, and the earth is NOT
the center of the universe(You do beleive that - dont you - even if the
church killed people for saying it at one time)- which means the
religion can be wrong. Why are you not willing to test your beliefs in
the real world and recognize that much of it doesn't hold water.
SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
Andrew
Only in the atheist dictionary. In real religion (the kind outside your
closed little mind) the phrase "blind faith" is meaningless.
> The religious have been indoctrinated with things that they KNOW cannot
> be proven even at a very basic level and believe even in the shadow of
> mountains of evidence against their claims.
No. I'm religious because I choose to be. Nobody indoctrinated me -
certainly not my atheist mother and agnostic father. I was an atheist
myself until I was 24.
> They never use logic to test religions claims and ignore what is going
> on around them.
Piffle. Logic and reason have been mainstays of the Christian faith
since its inception. And if you had an education rather than a set of
unanalysed prejudices you'd know that.
>
> Even when the Largest Christian denominations have recognized evolution
> as the origin of the species - they continue to hold to a model of
> creation that simply doesn't make sense based on the proof of evolution.
WHAT ON EARTH are you talking about?? If "the largest Christian
denominations have recognized evolution as the origin of the species"
who is this "they" you're talking about?
> WE have proof the earth revolves around the sun, and the earth is NOT
> the center of the universe(You do beleive that - dont you - even if the
> church killed people for saying it at one time)- which means the
> religion can be wrong. Why are you not willing to test your beliefs in
> the real world and recognize that much of it doesn't hold water.
What makes you assume we don't? Why do you think theology changes? Why
do you think the Christian understanding of the Bible has changed?
You say "much of our beliefs [don't] hold water, but you've
demonstrated little grasp of what we actually believe.
>
> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
Especially yours.
monkfish
That's the beauty of the invisible God.
Christians are keenly aware of their faith.
Atheists are not aware of their blind faith.
Do you believe in the equality of all human beings?
monkfish
Faith is blind if you are not aware of it.
Christians are keenly aware of their faith
to the point of doubting God occasionally.
Atheists are never in doubt
because they are not aware of their blind faith.
Thom Madura
Then I will ask you the same questions I have asked over and over again
Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
blamed for sins of another - right?
Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)? Silence means
Consent. If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice
must happen before he will do something?
Andrew
>> Especially yours.
>>
>>
>
>
> Then I will ask you the same questions I have asked over and over again
>
> Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
> have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
> autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
> blamed for sins of another - right?
Bad things happen. Get over it. In a world without magic, without dei
ex machinae, without the saccharinous endings of Hollywood; in the real
world governed by the laws of nature that God initiated, where things
happen according to logic - the only kind of world where there can be
freedom and moral responsibility - things aren't always fair and they
aren't always nice. Try to actually UNDERSTAND the Christian faith
rather than sloganising. Why do you think our symbol is a Cross and its
central figure is the Son of God dying in agony entirely unjustly?
>
> Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
> happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)?
Or the work of the atheists in Revolutionary France, who managed to
outdo the atrocities of 300 years of witch burnings across the whole of
Europe in 3 years in France alone. OK - point taken
> Silence means Consent.
Does it? So all those Jews who kept their heads down while the Nazis
were rounding folk up consented to it?
> If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice must
> happen before he will do something?
God works through human beings. Yeah, you can throw as many atrocities
as you like at me, but I look around me at the country where I live
(Scotland). I look at the absence of slavery - a product of deeply
religiously commited men. I look at the universal schooling that the
church initiated. I look at the hospitals that grew out of religious
foundations. I look at the humanitarian laws that have been enacted
over the last 150 years that sprang from the belief that before God we
are all his children. I look at the decent housing we now have because
Church of Scotland ministers went around measuring people's houses and
drawing the squalour that some were living in to the attention of
government. I look at the work that was done to inoculate people
against TB in this century - a campaign fought by the Church. And I
look in recent years at the campaign to get farmers in 3rd world
countries a decent price for their work (the 'FairTrade' movement) that
took off in any number of church halls long before it became
'fashionable'.
The bigger question than "what magnitude of injustice must happen
before [God] will do something?" is "what magnitude of injustice must
happen before I will do something?" That's the question that real faith
- not blind at all, but rooted in the real world where really evil
things happen - challenges us with every day. It's the world God has
given us for us to grow up in. The notion you have of 'loving God' is a
childish one that looks for a kind of 'SuperDaddy' who will fix all the
things we break. Such a notion is about as far from what Christianity
is really about as it is possible to be.
Thom Madura
I asked you to explain god's love - you religious say god is love. IF
bad things happen - get over it - is how you explain god;'s love - then
god IS NOT love.
Adions
"Andrew" <thec...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2008052017111216807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
The phrase "blind faith" has meaning. Belief that does not rest on logical proof
or material evidence
>> The religious have been indoctrinated with things that they KNOW cannot be
>> proven even at a very basic level and believe even in the shadow of mountains
>> of evidence against their claims.
>
> No. I'm religious because I choose to be. Nobody indoctrinated me - certainly
> not my atheist mother and agnostic father. I was an atheist myself until I was
> 24.
>
>> They never use logic to test religions claims and ignore what is going on
>> around them.
>
> Piffle. Logic and reason have been mainstays of the Christian faith since its
> inception. And if you had an education rather than a set of unanalysed
> prejudices you'd know that.
>
That my friend you are in error. What is the logic and reasoning on the catholic
teaching on birth control? What about the evangelistic point of view on playing
cards? What about the widely varied views on drinking alcohol? It is widely
varied from one denomination to another on dancing. It is very hotly argued on
abortion both for and against depending on the religious flavor. What about the
amish or mennonites views on using modern for lack of a better word "stuff".
Where is the logic that says it's ok to teach children lies, when the "good
book" says a liar will not inherit the kingdom? Where is the logic with some
many flavors of christendom, when you all use the same book to base your belief?
How can you have so many varied ideas from one book?
monkfish
What makes you think
all dishes prepared following the same recipe
should taste the same?
And, yes, the secret ingredient is love.
monkfish
It's all our fault.
Bad things happen because of our sins,
our misunderstandings, our false expectations,
our failure to obey God, our failure to love our neighbor,
our failure to love our enemies, and our failure to love God.
bob young
I agree. Here are some examples :
The universe revolves around the earth.
Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
The world is flat (and on pillars)
Bats are a kind of bird.
Rabbits chew their cud.
There is enough water to flood the entire planet
Women were created from a man's rib
Rainbows are a promise from God
[Acknowledgements to 'James, Seattle'
>
> >
> > Even when the Largest Christian denominations have recognized evolution
> > as the origin of the species - they continue to hold to a model of
> > creation that simply doesn't make sense based on the proof of evolution.
>
> WHAT ON EARTH are you talking about?? If "the largest Christian
> denominations have recognized evolution as the origin of the species"
> who is this "they" you're talking about?
>
> > WE have proof the earth revolves around the sun, and the earth is NOT
> > the center of the universe(You do beleive that - dont you - even if the
> > church killed people for saying it at one time)- which means the
> > religion can be wrong. Why are you not willing to test your beliefs in
> > the real world and recognize that much of it doesn't hold water.
>
> What makes you assume we don't? Why do you think theology changes? Why
> do you think the Christian understanding of the Bible has changed?
The interpetation of the Bible changes because it has no
option
in the face of modern scientific discovery.
bob young
Andrew wrote:
>
> On 2008-05-20 22:44:15 +0100, Thom Madura <Tomm...@optonline.net> said:
>
> >> Especially yours.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Then I will ask you the same questions I have asked over and over again
> >
> > Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
> > have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
> > autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
> > blamed for sins of another - right?
>
> Bad things happen. Get over it. In a world without magic, without dei
> ex machinae, without the saccharinous endings of Hollywood; in the real
> world governed by the laws of nature that God initiated,
GROAN GROAN GROAN. a logical paragraph suddenly changes
into more mythology
where things
> happen according to logic - the only kind of world where there can be
> freedom and moral responsibility - things aren't always fair and they
> aren't always nice.
Yes a good description of a godless world. The word we live in.
As a preacher Andrew try taking a trip to Central China
where over 40,000 have just died in an earthquake and 50,000
are still missing. Rescue workers are tirelessly trying to
dig out children buried under the rubble.
Go there and try lecturing those rescue workers about the
love of god..... etc. etc., and if you take a cross with you
take care since they may be sorely tempted to shove it
somewhere unmentionable.
The Bible you mentioned earlier claims god created heaven
and earth. Garbage, 'He' created an earth 'created' with
tectonic plates, typhoons, volcanoes, droughts, floods....................?!!!!!!
Try to actually UNDERSTAND the Christian faith
> rather than sloganising. Why do you think our symbol is a Cross and its
> central figure is the Son of God dying in agony entirely unjustly?
>
> >
> > Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
> > happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)?
>
> Or the work of the atheists in Revolutionary France, who managed to
> outdo the atrocities of 300 years of witch burnings across the whole of
> Europe in 3 years in France alone. OK - point taken
>
> > Silence means Consent.
>
> Does it? So all those Jews who kept their heads down while the Nazis
> were rounding folk up consented to it?
>
> > If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice must
> > happen before he will do something?
>
> God works through human beings.
Not quite correct.
Man has their god working on their behalf. A VERY
DIFFERENT THING
bob young
Because humans love to create gods
and manipulate them to their heart's content.
Pastor Frank
news:4833471f$0$25051$607e...@cv.net...
>
> Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to have
> been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs, autism -
> etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be blamed for sins
> of another - right?
> Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
> happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)? Silence means
> Consent. If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice
> must happen before he will do something?
>
opportunity to improve the human condition and give us a reason for living.
Without this adversity we would have no work nor mind. Therefore it is not
a question whether "he will do something", but rather whether we will do
something constructive, motivated by love and care.
Pastor Frank
> Thom Madura wrote:
>>
>> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
>
> That's the beauty of the invisible God.
> Christians are keenly aware of their faith.
> Atheists are not aware of their blind faith.
> Do you believe in the equality of all human beings?
>
indivisible God, for our Christian God is both knowable and visible. See
below
Pastor Frank
Jesus explains further in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the
way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If
ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE
KNOW HIM AND HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the
Father, and it sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long
time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME
HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words
that I speak unto you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN
ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS."
Pastor Frank
>
> I asked you to explain god's love - you religious say god is love. IF bad
> things happen - get over it - is how you explain god;'s love - then god IS
> NOT love.
>
clueless as to what something is. So, if God is not love, then what is God?
Atheists will likely say, that God is an invisible ogre in the sky. But to
Christ the word meant a quality of being, an ideal of perfection, such as
love which He proved on the cross of Calvary.
As to the subject above, I would hate to see blind faith disappear. I
like to have blind faith in my loved ones, don't you?
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>> news:zuOdnY4U-6B0LbLV...@ptd.net...
>>>
>>> Our survival could well rest on reducing blind faith.
>>> Atheists have blind faith in their ability
>>> to know of all actual or possible ways to prove anything.
>>> Therefore, they cannot understand anything
>>> outside their narrow-minded scheme of things.
>>> The only way to talk to them is to show that
>>> what they believe has some internal inconsistency.
>>
>> Atheism is only "internally consistent" if one discounts all
>> alternative models a priori.
>
> Blind faith is almost the very definition of faith in religion. The
> religious have been indoctrinated with things that they KNOW cannot be
> proven even at a very basic level and believe even in the shadow of
> mountains of evidence against their claims. They never use logic to test
> religions claims and ignore what is going on around them.
> Even when the Largest Christian denominations have recognized evolution as
> the origin of the species - they continue to hold to a model of creation
> that simply doesn't make sense based on the proof of evolution.
> WE have proof the earth revolves around the sun, and the earth is NOT the
> center of the universe(You do beleive that - dont you - even if the church
> killed people for saying it at one time)- which means the religion can be
> wrong. Why are you not willing to test your beliefs in the real world and
> recognize that much of it doesn't hold water.
> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
>
of course all nonsense, that is unless you are an extreme atheist. Of
course love is blind. That's just a truism. Our Christian God is love and
we have faith in God, meaning we have faith in love. Only extreme atheists
investigate their potential spouses thoroughly before marriage. Most people
put faith into their loves and go by instinct. Don't you? If you're
normal, you will be very keen on proving your love to your beloved, which
amounts to the same as proving your God.
Pastor Frank
news:nsmdnVHIkcfo_q7V...@comcast.com...
> "Andrew" <thec...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:2008052017111216807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...
>> On 2008-05-20 13:09:43 +0100, Thom Madura <Tomm...@optonline.net> said:
>>>
>>> Blind faith is almost the very definition of faith in religion.
>>
>> Only in the atheist dictionary. In real religion (the kind outside your
>> closed little mind) the phrase "blind faith" is meaningless.
>
> The phrase "blind faith" has meaning. Belief that does not rest on logical
> proof or material evidence
>
demand, that their loved ones be ready to prove their love and fidelity
beyond doubt at all times. It makes normal human relationships impossible,
for this is pure paranoia, and who would desire to survive in that kind of
world?
Thom Madura
How horrendous does an act have to be before this "loving god" of your
will act.
Some adversity? Killing millions of jews because of their beliefs!
Some adversity? Killing in the name of god for belief of things that
were actually true!(The inquisition)
Some adversity - killing thousands of innocent children in natural
disasters - almost every day lately.
And all of this is motivated by "love and care"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So love and care is - your defintions
Allowing the holocaust
Allowing the Inquisition in his name
Allowing innocent children to be killed in natural disasters
Allowing children to be born badly disabled or diseased.
And he expect us to love him for this.
F*** him.
monkfish
There are many ways to "see" God.
Have you seen God with your own eyes?
Andrew
>> The bigger question than "what magnitude of injustice must happen
>> before [God] will do something?" is "what magnitude of injustice must
>> happen before I will do something?" That's the question that real faith
>> - not blind at all, but rooted in the real world where really evil
>> things happen - challenges us with every day. It's the world God has
>> given us for us to grow up in. The notion you have of 'loving God' is a
>> childish one that looks for a kind of 'SuperDaddy' who will fix all the
>> things we break. Such a notion is about as far from what Christianity
>> is really about as it is possible to be.
>>
>>
>
>
> I asked you to explain god's love - you religious say god is love. IF
> bad things happen - get over it - is how you explain god;'s love - then
> god IS NOT love.
Love does not mean "stopping bad things happening". It means "being
with those who suffer when bad things happen". God is present in his
Creation and is present with all those who suffer offering his support
through difficult times. He does this partly through inspiring us to
love and care for one another.
Andrew
>
>
> Andrew wrote:
>>
>> On 2008-05-20 22:44:15 +0100, Thom Madura <Tomm...@optonline.net> said:
>>
>>>> Especially yours.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then I will ask you the same questions I have asked over and over again
>>>
>>> Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
>>> have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
>>> autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
>>> blamed for sins of another - right?
>>
>> Bad things happen. Get over it. In a world without magic, without dei
>> ex machinae, without the saccharinous endings of Hollywood; in the real
>> world governed by the laws of nature that God initiated,
>
> GROAN GROAN GROAN. a logical paragraph suddenly changes
> into more mythology
>
> where things
>> happen according to logic - the only kind of world where there can be
>> freedom and moral responsibility - things aren't always fair and they
>> aren't always nice.
>
> Yes a good description of a godless world. The word we live in.
>
> As a preacher Andrew try taking a trip to Central China
> where over 40,000 have just died in an earthquake and 50,000
> are still missing. Rescue workers are tirelessly trying to
> dig out children buried under the rubble.
Bob, much as I'd like to it's a little impractical. I have, however
seen something similar when somebody dropped a jumbo jet on my town.
And I also remember how important the love of God was at that time.
>
> Go there and try lecturing those rescue workers about the
> love of god..... etc. etc., and if you take a cross with you
> take care since they may be sorely tempted to shove it
> somewhere unmentionable.
I wouldn't be so crass.
>
> The Bible you mentioned earlier claims god created heaven
> and earth. Garbage, 'He' created an earth 'created' with
> tectonic plates, typhoons, volcanoes, droughts,
> floods....................?!!!!!!
Yes. He did. That would be a world that changes.
monkfish
I can tell you miss God so much.
God is still here with us.
It's you who left God.
Come back.
--
monkfish
Andrew
>
> Yes a good description of a godless world. The word we live in.
>
> As a preacher Andrew try taking a trip to Central China
> where over 40,000 have just died in an earthquake and 50,000
> are still missing. Rescue workers are tirelessly trying to
> dig out children buried under the rubble.
>
> Go there and try lecturing those rescue workers about the
> love of god..... etc. etc., and if you take a cross with you
> take care since they may be sorely tempted to shove it
> somewhere unmentionable.
And entirely rightly. Anyone going into such a situation with a
pleasant little sermon, rather than a willingness to wade in and get on
with the work deserves as much and more. It would be as crass as using
such events for a little point-scoring on UseNet.
As to those rescue workers, you seem to forget that a great many of
them are people of religious faith and are there out of a sense of the
love of God - they are the last people who would need such a lecture.
Some years ago - when I was training - we had a talk from a guy who'd
been involved in relief missions. I think he'd been at the Armenian
earthquake. To him the love of God was a living reality and his
experiences had strengthened his faith - though had not left it
unchanged.
> The Bible you mentioned earlier claims god created heaven
> and earth. Garbage, 'He' created an earth 'created' with
> tectonic plates, typhoons, volcanoes, droughts,
> floods....................?!!!!!!
Yes. Tectonic plates and volcanoes - the things that give this planet
its rich diversity of geology and rock types, its atmosphere, its
mineral wealth. Typhoons and floods - the flip side of the forces that
bring us rain and inundate flood plains with soil and minerals that
enrich agricultural land.
Andrew
>> Piffle. Logic and reason have been mainstays of the Christian faith
>> since its inception. And if you had an education rather than a set of
>> unanalysed prejudices you'd know that.
>>
>
> That my friend you are in error. What is the logic and reasoning on the
> catholic teaching on birth control?
That the purpose of sexual relations is procreation and that artificial
contraception therefore runs contrary to the purpose of sex. It's
entirely logical. I may not agree with the premise, but the deduction
is entirely logical.
> What about the evangelistic point of view on playing cards?
Games of chance encourage gambling. This causes all sorts of social
ills, from family breakdowns to murder.
> What about the widely varied views on drinking alcohol?
What about them?
> It is widely varied from one denomination to another on dancing.
Indeed. That is because there is no single cut and dried argument on
the matter.
> It is very hotly argued on abortion both for and against depending on
> the religious flavor.
Again, because different logical arguments can be presented based on
different entirely reasonable assumptions. The ariety of viewpoint is
not evidence of irrationality.
> What about the amish or mennonites views on using modern for lack of a
> better word "stuff".
Again, what about them?
> Where is the logic that says it's ok to teach children lies, when the
> "good book" says a liar will not inherit the kingdom?
I don't know of any religious viewpoint that says it's alright to teach lies.
> Where is the logic with some many flavors of christendom, when you all
> use the same book to base your belief? How can you have so many varied
> ideas from one book?
Because life isn't simple. When you grow up you'll realise that.
Andrew
> I agree. Here are some examples :
>
> The universe revolves around the earth.
> Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
> The world is flat (and on pillars)
> Bats are a kind of bird.
> Rabbits chew their cud.
> There is enough water to flood the entire planet
> Women were created from a man's rib
> Rainbows are a promise from God
>
> [Acknowledgements to 'James, Seattle'
Been through that bollocks with you before Bob
Thom Madura
And you still have not answered my question - in fact you snipped out
everything I said - except for the question.
I asked how this shows GOD's love - and if I interpret your answer
correctly it that is DOESNT. IF that Monkfish bot continues to say that
god is "love' - that is not true.
Andrew
>>> I asked you to explain god's love - you religious say god is love. IF
>>> bad things happen - get over it - is how you explain god;'s love - then
>>> god IS NOT love.
>>
>> Love does not mean "stopping bad things happening". It means "being
>> with those who suffer when bad things happen". God is present in his
>> Creation and is present with all those who suffer offering his support
>> through difficult times. He does this partly through inspiring us to
>> love and care for one another.
>>
>
>
> And you still have not answered my question - in fact you snipped out
> everything I said - except for the question.
>
> I asked how this shows GOD's love - and if I interpret your answer
> correctly it that is DOESNT.
No, you're right. It doesn't. You are applying a rather infantile
concept of love. In saying that I am not attributing intantilism to
you, rather that you are unconsciously (I think) attributing it to
Christians. God's love shows in his presence with us through bad times
and through the care for strangers that he inspires in people.
Thom Madura
Prove that.
Andrew
No, you presumptuous troll.
monkfish
After you show us how to prove that love exists.
Thom Madura
Because you can't - as usual
bob young
Nice side ste. did gou consult all of the bereived before
making that claim?
And having made it, what on earth has it to do with
projected 60,000 dead in China due to what the insurance
industry term.......... 'An act of God'
p
>
> >
> > Go there and try lecturing those rescue workers about the
> > love of god..... etc. etc., and if you take a cross with you
> > take care since they may be sorely tempted to shove it
> > somewhere unmentionable.
>
> I wouldn't be so crass.
>
> >
> > The Bible you mentioned earlier claims god created heaven
> > and earth. Garbage, 'He' created an earth 'created' with
> > tectonic plates, typhoons, volcanoes, droughts,
> > floods....................?!!!!!!
>
> Yes. He did. That would be a world that changes.
He made it with all those faults listed above that are
capable of wiping out thousands of innocents?
And i bet you still wonder why there are atheists !
>
> >
> > Try to actually UNDERSTAND the Christian faith
> >> rather than sloganising. Why do you think our symbol is a Cross and its
> >> central figure is the Son of God dying in agony entirely unjustly?
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
> >>> happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)?
> >>
> >> Or the work of the atheists in Revolutionary France, who managed to
> >> outdo the atrocities of 300 years of witch burnings across the whole of
> >> Europe in 3 years in France alone. OK - point taken
> >>
> >>> Silence means Consent.
> >>
> >> Does it? So all those Jews who kept their heads down while the Nazis
> >> were rounding folk up consented to it?
> >>
> >>> If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice must
> >>> happen before he will do something?
> >>
> >> God works through human beings.
> >
> > Not quite correct.
100% correct. Show in verifiable terms any single exception
to that claim I just made.
bob young
Andrew wrote:
>
> On 2008-05-21 06:22:21 +0100, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
>
> >
> > Yes a good description of a godless world. The word we live in.
> >
> > As a preacher Andrew try taking a trip to Central China
> > where over 40,000 have just died in an earthquake and 50,000
> > are still missing. Rescue workers are tirelessly trying to
> > dig out children buried under the rubble.
> >
> > Go there and try lecturing those rescue workers about the
> > love of god..... etc. etc., and if you take a cross with you
> > take care since they may be sorely tempted to shove it
> > somewhere unmentionable.
>
> And entirely rightly. Anyone going into such a situation with a
> pleasant little sermon, rather than a willingness to wade in and get on
> with the work deserves as much and more. It would be as crass as using
> such events for a little point-scoring on UseNet.
>
> As to those rescue workers, you seem to forget that a great many of
> them are people of religious faith and are there out of a sense of the
> love of God - they are the last people who would need such a lecture.
Groan
> Some years ago - when I was training - we had a talk from a guy who'd
> been involved in relief missions. I think he'd been at the Armenian
> earthquake. To him the love of God was a living reality and his
> experiences had strengthened his faith - though had not left it
> unchanged.
Yes earthquakes. They remind me of the stupidity of
religious beliefs. It was about ten years ago I remember it
well. The earthquake was in northern Afghanistan and the
BBC went there with cameras soon after.
The commentary spoke about an old man on camera who, it
said, had lost his entire family of ten people. They went
up to him on camera and through an interpreter asked him
"How did you feel about being pulled out of the rubble alive
and finding you are the only one left in your entire family
"?
His answer......................... "I gave thanks to Allah"
I never forgot that blithering idiot and his pathetic
illustration of how the human brain can be infected by
religious dogma.
>
> > The Bible you mentioned earlier claims god created heaven
> > and earth. Garbage, 'He' created an earth 'created' with
> > tectonic plates, typhoons, volcanoes, droughts,
> > floods....................?!!!!!!
>
> Yes. Tectonic plates and volcanoes - the things that give this planet
> its rich diversity of geology and rock types, its atmosphere, its
> mineral wealth. Typhoons and floods - the flip side of the forces that
> bring us rain and inundate flood plains with soil and minerals that
> enrich agricultural land.
Yes - you too have been well and truly indoctrinated.
Next you will be telling me that mosquitos, killing off
millions in Africa, are doing some kind of good!
What good do mosquitos do?
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> "Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4833471f$0$25051$607e...@cv.net...
> >
> > Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to have
> > been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs, autism -
> > etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be blamed for sins
> > of another - right?
> > Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
> > happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)? Silence means
> > Consent. If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice
> > must happen before he will do something?
> >
> God loves us enough to give us some adversity in life, to provide us the
> opportunity to improve the human condition and give us a reason for living.
Pathetic religious crap
> Without this adversity we would have no work nor mind.
Pathetic religious crap
Therefore it is not
> a question whether "he will do something", but rather whether we will do
> something constructive, motivated by love and care.
Pathetic religious crap
bob young
Thom Madura wrote:
>
> Pastor Frank wrote:
> > "Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> > news:4833471f$0$25051$607e...@cv.net...
> >>
> >> Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
> >> have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
> >> autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
> >> blamed for sins of another - right?
> >> Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
> >> happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)? Silence means
> >> Consent. If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of
> >> injustice must happen before he will do something?
> >>
> > God loves us enough to give us some adversity in life, to provide us
> > the opportunity to improve the human condition and give us a reason for
> > living. Without this adversity we would have no work nor mind.
> > Therefore it is not a question whether "he will do something", but
> > rather whether we will do something constructive, motivated by love and
> > care.
>
> How horrendous does an act have to be before this "loving god" of your
> will act.
It matters not how horrendous. They are so imbibed by the
religious inculcation they received from others that
appealed to them, no amount of common sense will have them
think outside the box. Outside of these boxes there is no
power and influence to sop their raging insecurity - and we
can't have that.
bob young
What a perfect example of how disingenuous religionists can
be when they are stuck for a logical reply.
This what the post was, NOW ADDRESS IT:
>Andrew:
> Piffle. Logic and reason have been mainstays of the Christian faith
> since its inception. And if you had an education rather than a set of
> unanalysed prejudices you'd know that.
I agree. Here are some examples :
The universe revolves around the earth.
Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
The world is flat (and on pillars)
Bats are a kind of bird.
Rabbits chew their cud.
There is enough water to flood the entire planet
Women were created from a man's rib
Rainbows are a promise from God
[Acknowledgments to 'James, Seattle'
You are becoming a wee bit o' a bad loser Andrew
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
> news:raSdnadwIJrNia7V...@ptd.net...
> > Thom Madura wrote:
> >>
> >> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
> >
> > That's the beauty of the invisible God.
> > Christians are keenly aware of their faith.
> > Atheists are not aware of their blind faith.
> > Do you believe in the equality of all human beings?
> >
> What "invisible God" are you talking about? You probably meant
> indivisible God, for our Christian God is both knowable and visible. See
> below
You nutters can't even agree among yourselves.
God did a lousy job 'creating' you !
Andrew
No. I can't. It's a belief. A judgement. If you think it's wrong you
can either prove it to be wrong, or join me in accepting that sometimes
life's like that - it doesn't always offer certainties and you just
have to make the best call you can. Or is it you with the 'blind faith'
here?
Andrew
>
>
> Andrew wrote:
>>
>> On 2008-05-21 06:22:21 +0100, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes a good description of a godless world. The word we live in.
>>>
>>> As a preacher Andrew try taking a trip to Central China
>>> where over 40,000 have just died in an earthquake and 50,000
>>> are still missing. Rescue workers are tirelessly trying to
>>> dig out children buried under the rubble.
>>>
>>> Go there and try lecturing those rescue workers about the
>>> love of god..... etc. etc., and if you take a cross with you
>>> take care since they may be sorely tempted to shove it
>>> somewhere unmentionable.
>>
>> And entirely rightly. Anyone going into such a situation with a
>> pleasant little sermon, rather than a willingness to wade in and get on
>> with the work deserves as much and more. It would be as crass as using
>> such events for a little point-scoring on UseNet.
>>
>> As to those rescue workers, you seem to forget that a great many of
>> them are people of religious faith and are there out of a sense of the
>> love of God - they are the last people who would need such a lecture.
>
> Groan
Translation "I've got no answer to that"
>
>> Some years ago - when I was training - we had a talk from a guy who'd
>> been involved in relief missions. I think he'd been at the Armenian
>> earthquake. To him the love of God was a living reality and his
>> experiences had strengthened his faith - though had not left it
>> unchanged.
>
> Yes earthquakes. They remind me of the stupidity of
> religious beliefs. It was about ten years ago I remember it
> well. The earthquake was in northern Afghanistan and the
> BBC went there with cameras soon after.
>
> The commentary spoke about an old man on camera who, it
> said, had lost his entire family of ten people. They went
> up to him on camera and through an interpreter asked him
> "How did you feel about being pulled out of the rubble alive
> and finding you are the only one left in your entire family
> "?
>
> His answer......................... "I gave thanks to Allah"
>
> I never forgot that blithering idiot and his pathetic
> illustration of how the human brain can be infected by
> religious dogma.
Why do you find that so hard to understand Bob? Maybe it's your brain
that's 'infected'. Either way it fairly undermines your original point
about the earthquake victims in China.
>>
>>> The Bible you mentioned earlier claims god created heaven
>>> and earth. Garbage, 'He' created an earth 'created' with
>>> tectonic plates, typhoons, volcanoes, droughts,
>>> floods....................?!!!!!!
>>
>> Yes. Tectonic plates and volcanoes - the things that give this planet
>> its rich diversity of geology and rock types, its atmosphere, its
>> mineral wealth. Typhoons and floods - the flip side of the forces that
>> bring us rain and inundate flood plains with soil and minerals that
>> enrich agricultural land.
>
> Yes - you too have been well and truly indoctrinated.
>
> Next you will be telling me that mosquitos, killing off
> millions in Africa, are doing some kind of good!
>
> What good do mosquitos do?
None as far as I can see. But why should they? They are the products of
evolution and the harm they do is the consequence of their life cycle.
Is it evolution you're raging at here. Best of luck with that.
Andrew
>
>
> Andrew wrote:
>>
>> On 2008-05-21 06:13:09 +0100, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
>>
>>> I agree. Here are some examples :
>>>
>>> The universe revolves around the earth.
>>> Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
>>> The world is flat (and on pillars)
>>> Bats are a kind of bird.
>>> Rabbits chew their cud.
>>> There is enough water to flood the entire planet
>>> Women were created from a man's rib
>>> Rainbows are a promise from God
>>>
>>> [Acknowledgements to 'James, Seattle'
>>
>> Been through that bollocks with you before Bob
>
> What a perfect example of how disingenuous religionists can
> be when they are stuck for a logical reply.
>
> This what the post was, NOW ADDRESS IT:
Why? You've posted it at least a dozen times before and I've addressed
it every time. If you're memory's failing to such a degree I'm sorry.
Just to help you out, though, I'll take one of the points from James's
bilgewater.
"Bats are a kind of bird". Bats are only not a kind of bird because of
the way we choose to define and classify birds and - in this case -
mammals. There is nothing innately illogical about describing bats as
birds in a society that defines birds as 'animals with wings'.
As for the rest, the early chapters of Genesis - especially the
Creation narratives - have been held to be allegorical by mainstream
Christians for at least 1500 years going back to Augustine of Hippo at
the latest. Do try to keep up.
monkfish
Thanks.
If you are aware of your faith,
what you have is not blind faith.
Faith does not have to be logical
not to be called blind.
If God is going to force us to believe in Him,
He would not have bothered to create us in His image.
bob young
flooding the entire planet
man from a womans's rib
rainbows a promise from god
world is flat and on pillars.
Just ilustrating the lack of logic in religion..
.......these are all mythological things from The Bible
monkfish
> flooding the entire planet
> man from a womans's rib
> rainbows a promise from god
> world is flat and on pillars.
>
> Just ilustrating the lack of logic in religion..
>
> .......these are all mythological things from The Bible
You really should read the Bible to the end and in context.
Would you like to know how to live well?
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>>
>> Bad things happen because of our sins,
>> our misunderstandings, our false expectations,
>> our failure to obey God, our failure to love our neighbor,
>> our failure to love our enemies, and our failure to love God.
>
> So - to recap
> You said that your god was loving, fair and just.
> He would not blame someone for the sins of another.
> Yet - he is blaming an innocent newborn child for YOUR sins.
> Yet - he ignores atrocities because of YOUR sins.
> SO - the conclusion is that he talks one way and does another - another
> true hypocrite.
> You have managed to prove that your god is not all loving, fair, or just.
> He is a masochistic monster.
>
If all who produce staged realism not to your liking are "masochistic
monsters", then why do you, and near everyone else prefer watching crime,
blood and gore on TV, if not all via other media, and thus support their
productions? Do you ever stop to think what a world without adversity would
be like? Would you like to live in such a world? It's called heaven, and to
date only religionists would enjoy it. Atheists on the other hand prefer
stark reality, warts and all, and that's why the world is in such a mess.
Make up your mind, whether you will devote your life to advancing the
Kingdom of God, or Satan's kingdom of hell.
Andrew
Do you understand the concept of "story", Bob. I know that might be
taxing your intellect a little, but I'll try to explain it to you.
Sometimes, when somebody wants to put over an idea, they don't simply
do it using a sequence of facts. Sometimes they tell what we call a
"story". Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.
OK. Now, sometimes these stories contain strange things that might
surprise you. These can be called "symbols" or "metaphors" or "poetic
imagery". These are not meant to be taken literally. Doing so, or
arguing about their "logic" is as asinine as criticising the telephone
directory for its lack of plot and characterisation.
Pastor Frank
>>>
>>> Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
>>> have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
>>> autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
>>> blamed for sins of another - right?
>>> Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
>>> happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)? Silence means
>>> Consent. If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice
>>> must happen before he will do something?
>>>
>> God loves us enough to give us some adversity in life, to provide us
>> the opportunity to improve the human condition and give us a reason for
>> living. Without this adversity we would have no work nor mind. Therefore
>> it is not a question whether "he will do something", but rather whether
>> we will do something constructive, motivated by love and care.
>
> How horrendous does an act have to be before this "loving god" of your
> will act.
>
much love you are willing to demonstrate.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>> news:raSdnadwIJrNia7V...@ptd.net...
>>> Thom Madura wrote:
>>>>
>>>> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
>>>
>>> That's the beauty of the invisible God.
>>> Christians are keenly aware of their faith.
>>> Atheists are not aware of their blind faith.
>>> Do you believe in the equality of all human beings?
>>>
>> What "invisible God" are you talking about? You probably meant
>> indivisible God, for our Christian God is both knowable and visible. See
>> below
>>
>> the
>> way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
>> If
>> ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth
>> YE KNOW HIM AND HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the
>> Father, and it sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long
>> time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN
>> ME
>> HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father?
>> Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The
>> words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT
>> DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS."
>
> Have you seen God with your own eyes?
>
I think we all see God without knowing it. To see God in all things is
a gift of God bestowed on them who love him.
Pastor Frank
news:200805211815478930-thecroft@macunlimitednet infantile
and private infantile fantasies. He appears to be an anti-Semite, for his
complaints are mostly against the Jewish Tanakh.
Pastor Frank
accept?
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>>> news:raSdnadwIJrNia7V...@ptd.net...
>>>> Thom Madura wrote:
>>>>> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
>>>> That's the beauty of the invisible God.
>>>> Christians are keenly aware of their faith.
>>>> Atheists are not aware of their blind faith.
>>>> Do you believe in the equality of all human beings?
>>>>
>>> What "invisible God" are you talking about? You probably meant
>>> indivisible God, for our Christian God is both knowable and visible.
>>> See
>>> below
>>>
>>> Jesus explains further in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am
>>> the
>>> way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
>>> If
>>> ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also, and from
>>> henceforth
>>> YE KNOW HIM AND HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us
>>> the
>>> time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN
>>> ME
>>> HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father?
>>> Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The
>>> words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT
>>> DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS."
>>
>> There are many ways to "see" God.
>> Have you seen God with your own eyes?
>
> Do you believe in your bible?
>
The above quotes are those of Jesus telling us, that we know and have
seen God. I believe Jesus. I also believe that being able to see God is a
gift of God, meaning most of us look at God all the time, yet cannot see
Him.
Pastor Frank
monkfish
I agree.
Let's not get hung up on words
and concentrate on the message.
bob young
You are 'fast' all right. I could accept your pathetic
argument for maybe one of the above, but for all nine of
them !?
You people sometimes treat posters like members of
congregations. The big difference is congregations 'want'
to hear without question, whilst we 'want' facts and proofs,
not silliness and pettiness.
>
> OK. Now, sometimes these stories contain strange things that might
> surprise you. These can be called "symbols" or "metaphors" or "poetic
> imagery". These are not meant to be taken literally. Doing so, or
> arguing about their "logic" is as asinine as criticising the telephone
> directory for its lack of plot and characterisation.
Ok even if we accept that then explain the point of claiming
'the universe revolves around the earth',
'a woman was created from a man's' rib?
WHAT EXACTLY was the imbecile who wrote the latter trying
to teach us using 'metaphor' ?
Pastor Frank
news:48353A4A...@netvigator.com...
"doing something constructive, motivated by love and care" "Pathetic
religious crap".
Pastor Frank
make the connection between Christ and "earthquakes".
Pastor Frank
would YOU have said in his place? So far we have seen nothing that earns
your approval. It's always nothing but complaints. "blithering idiot"
indeed!!!!!
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>> news:raSdnadwIJrNia7V...@ptd.net...
>> > Thom Madura wrote:
>> >>
>> >> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
>> >
>> > That's the beauty of the invisible God.
>> > Christians are keenly aware of their faith.
>> > Atheists are not aware of their blind faith.
>> > Do you believe in the equality of all human beings?
>>
>> What "invisible God" are you talking about? You probably meant
>> indivisible God, for our Christian God is both knowable and visible. See
>> below
>
> You nutters can't even agree among yourselves.
> God did a lousy job 'creating' you !
>
You better find something or someone to praise and worship, while you still
can.
Pastor Frank
LOL Ancient Semitic poetic idiom and allegory confusing Bob again? How
droll!!! Or is it you don't like Semites?
Andrew
>> Do you understand the concept of "story", Bob. I know that might be
>> taxing your intellect a little, but I'll try to explain it to you.
>> Sometimes, when somebody wants to put over an idea, they don't simply
>> do it using a sequence of facts. Sometimes they tell what we call a
>> "story". Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.
>
> You are 'fast' all right. I could accept your pathetic
> argument for maybe one of the above, but for all nine of
> them !?
Why is the number difficult. They're all from the same part of the
Bible. Oh - and why do you think a rainbow cannot be both a visual
phenomenon caused by refraction of light through moisture in the air
AND a promise from God?
>
> You people sometimes treat posters like members of
> congregations. The big difference is congregations 'want'
> to hear without question, whilst we 'want' facts and proofs,
> not silliness and pettiness.
Then it might be just ideal to avoid reposting parrot-fashion stuff
you've picked up and filed away without thinking about them critically
just because they concur with your own religious prejudices. And try
turning what you've said round - what makes you think we're happy to
read stuff you post here without question? Ultimately that's all I'm
doing - questioning your dogmas.
>
>
>>
>> OK. Now, sometimes these stories contain strange things that might
>> surprise you. These can be called "symbols" or "metaphors" or "poetic
>> imagery". These are not meant to be taken literally. Doing so, or
>> arguing about their "logic" is as asinine as criticising the telephone
>> directory for its lack of plot and characterisation.
>
>
> Ok even if we accept that then explain the point of claiming
> 'the universe revolves around the earth',
> 'a woman was created from a man's' rib?
>
> WHAT EXACTLY was the imbecile who wrote the latter trying
> to teach us using 'metaphor' ?
A number of possibilities spring to mind. The close relationship
between men and women in marriage - particularly given the joining of
sperm and egg in creating new life. Perhaps it's associated with the
notion of humanity as whole being disobedient to God and suffering
banishment from Eden together.
Thom Madura
On all insurance policies =- Earthquakes are considered "Acts of god"
Thom Madura
Do believe in the Egyptian book of the dead?
Thom Madura
>>
>> I asked you to explain god's love - you religious say god is love. IF
>> bad things happen - get over it - is how you explain god;'s love -
>> then god IS NOT love.
>>
> clueless as to what something is. So, if God is not love, then what is
> God? Atheists will likely say, that God is an invisible ogre in the
> sky. But to Christ the word meant a quality of being, an ideal of
> perfection, such as love which He proved on the cross of Calvary.
You are still quoting the christ - and have yet to provide SOURCE
material for the quotes. A reference book like the bible is NOT a source
- it only refers to other documents. Surely a powerful god as yours
would have made sure this documentation is available for all to see in
his wonder and exclaim his truth. What - no source material - Oh well -=
more fiction.
> As to the subject above, I would hate to see blind faith disappear.
> I like to have blind faith in my loved ones, don't you?
Do you have blind faith in your christ
According to his web site
" Easter time in 1935, Jesus appeared to the young Sun Myung Moon as he
was praying in the Korean mountains. In that vision, Jesus asked him to
continue the work which he had begun on earth nearly 2,000 years before.
Jesus asked him to complete the task of establishing God's kingdom on
earth and bringing His peace to humankind."
If you do - you must believe in Rev. Moon.
Thom Madura
> Thom Madura wrote:
>
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> "Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>> Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
>>>> have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
>>>> autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
>>>> blamed for sins of another - right?
>>>> Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
>>>> happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)? Silence means
>>>> Consent. If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of
>>>> injustice must happen before he will do something?
>>>>
>>> God loves us enough to give us some adversity in life, to provide us
>>> the opportunity to improve the human condition and give us a reason for
>>> Therefore it is not a question whether "he will do something", but
>>> rather whether we will do something constructive, motivated by love and
>>> care.
>>
>> will act.
>>
>> Some adversity? Killing in the name of god for belief of things that
>> were actually true!(The inquisition)
>> Some adversity - killing thousands of innocent children in natural
>> disasters - almost every day lately.
>>
>> And all of this is motivated by "love and care"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> So love and care is - your defintions
>>
>> Allowing the holocaust
>> Allowing the Inquisition in his name
>> Allowing innocent children to be killed in natural disasters
>> Allowing children to be born badly disabled or diseased.
>>
>> And he expect us to love him for this.
>>
>> F*** him.
>
>
> I can tell you miss God so much.
> God is still here with us.
> It's you who left God.
> Come back.
>
>
Sorry - I did not leave god - I left religion.
Evolution IS the basis for the creation of the universe. And yes - you
are correct - it is possible that a "higher power" gave the spark that
started the process. However - we have no reason to believe that a
"higher power" has any further involvement - or wants to - or cares -
or loves, or is allmighty, or all knowing, all good or all bad or both,
all just, all fair, all voluptuous, all intelligent - or even all energy.
Religion was not my choice - I was baptized and brought up to believe -
not by choice. That is probably the case with virtually all religious.
However - religion has proven to be bankrupt of reality and reason.
I can tell you need reassurance in your belief - why don't you question
it more?
What would it take for the christ to do to convince you to follow the
REV moon? After all - the christ told him to take over and finish his
job. If the christ told him - it should be good enough for you.
monkfish
You are trying too hard to confuse yourself.
Let me help you.
Just answer several simple questions, please.
Do you know God?
monkfish
You can tell by the fruit.
So you tasted some bad ones.
Become a good one yourself.
Live in love.
Not hate.
Thom Madura
Obviously - you are wrong then.
God chooses not to act - of which there is plenty of evidence.
Where is religion? Why do they not act?
People have to learn to act on their own -
For example-
American Slavery. Supported by the Southern Conservative Christians and
their churches.
Ended by the only American president who never belonged to a religion -
Abraham Lincoln.
Thom Madura
>
> Andrew wrote:
>> On 2008-05-21 06:22:21 +0100, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>>> On 2008-05-20 22:44:15 +0100, Thom Madura <Tomm...@optonline.net> said:
>>>>
>>>>>> Especially yours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I will ask you the same questions I have asked over and over again
>>>>>
>>>>> Explain "god's love" in the creation of a newborn child too young to
>>>>> have been able to sin - born with AIDS, cancer, MD, missing limbs,
>>>>> autism - etc? If your god is truly just and fair - you would not be
>>>>> blamed for sins of another - right?
>>>> ex machinae, without the saccharinous endings of Hollywood; in the real
>>>> world governed by the laws of nature that God initiated,
>>> GROAN GROAN GROAN. a logical paragraph suddenly changes
>>> into more mythology
>>>
>>> where things
>>>> happen according to logic - the only kind of world where there can be
>>>> freedom and moral responsibility - things aren't always fair and they
>>>> aren't always nice.
>>> Yes a good description of a godless world. The word we live in.
>>>
>>> As a preacher Andrew try taking a trip to Central China
>>> where over 40,000 have just died in an earthquake and 50,000
>>> are still missing. Rescue workers are tirelessly trying to
>>> dig out children buried under the rubble.
>> seen something similar when somebody dropped a jumbo jet on my town.
>> And I also remember how important the love of God was at that time.
>
> Nice side ste. did gou consult all of the bereived before
> making that claim?
>
> And having made it, what on earth has it to do with
> projected 60,000 dead in China due to what the insurance
> industry term.......... 'An act of God'
>
> p
>>> Go there and try lecturing those rescue workers about the
>>> love of god..... etc. etc., and if you take a cross with you
>>> take care since they may be sorely tempted to shove it
>>> somewhere unmentionable.
>>
>>> The Bible you mentioned earlier claims god created heaven
>>> and earth. Garbage, 'He' created an earth 'created' with
>>> tectonic plates, typhoons, volcanoes, droughts,
>>> floods....................?!!!!!!
>> Yes. He did. That would be a world that changes.
>
> He made it with all those faults listed above that are
> capable of wiping out thousands of innocents?
>
> And i bet you still wonder why there are atheists !
>
>>> Try to actually UNDERSTAND the Christian faith
>>>> rather than sloganising. Why do you think our symbol is a Cross and its
>>>> central figure is the Son of God dying in agony entirely unjustly?
>>>>
>>>>> Explain your "gods love" in standing by and allowing the holocaust to
>>>>> happen (or the inguisition - or the witch burnings)?
>>>> outdo the atrocities of 300 years of witch burnings across the whole of
>>>> Europe in 3 years in France alone. OK - point taken
>>>>
>>>>> Silence means Consent.
>>>> Does it? So all those Jews who kept their heads down while the Nazis
>>>> were rounding folk up consented to it?
>>>>
>>>>> If god is truly watching over us - what magnitude of injustice must
>>>>> happen before he will do something?
>>> Not quite correct.
>
> 100% correct. Show in verifiable terms any single exception
Easy.
American slavery
An institution SUPPORTED by Southern Religious Conservatives and their
Christian religions and god.
Abolished by the only American President who NEVER was a member of a
religion - Abraham Lincoln.
You cannot show that a god had anything to do with Mr. Lincoln's part in
this. To do so you would need to prove a god exists first - preferably
by presenting him/it in person. I will settle for a TV interview though.
Now you provide testable and verifiable evidence that a god had worked
THROUGH a person to do anything. In order to do so - you will need to
prove will again need to prove a god exists.
> to that claim I just made.
>>> Man has their god working on their behalf. A VERY
>>> DIFFERENT THING
>>>
>>> Yeah, you can throw as many atrocities
>>>> as you like at me, but I look around me at the country where I live
>>>> (Scotland). I look at the absence of slavery - a product of deeply
>>>> religiously commited men. I look at the universal schooling that the
>>>> church initiated. I look at the hospitals that grew out of religious
>>>> foundations. I look at the humanitarian laws that have been enacted
>>>> over the last 150 years that sprang from the belief that before God we
>>>> are all his children. I look at the decent housing we now have because
>>>> Church of Scotland ministers went around measuring people's houses and
>>>> drawing the squalour that some were living in to the attention of
>>>> government. I look at the work that was done to inoculate people
>>>> against TB in this century - a campaign fought by the Church. And I
>>>> look in recent years at the campaign to get farmers in 3rd world
>>>> countries a decent price for their work (the 'FairTrade' movement) that
>>>> took off in any number of church halls long before it became
>>>> 'fashionable'.
>>>>
>>>> The bigger question than "what magnitude of injustice must happen
>>>> before [God] will do something?" is "what magnitude of injustice must
Thom Madura
>
> Andrew wrote:
>>
>>> I agree. Here are some examples :
>>>
>>> The universe revolves around the earth.
>>> Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
>>> The world is flat (and on pillars)
>>> Bats are a kind of bird.
>>> Rabbits chew their cud.
>>> There is enough water to flood the entire planet
>>> Women were created from a man's rib
>>> Rainbows are a promise from God
>>>
>>> [Acknowledgements to 'James, Seattle'
>> Been through that bollocks with you before Bob
>
> What a perfect example of how disingenuous religionists can
> be when they are stuck for a logical reply.
>
> This what the post was, NOW ADDRESS IT:
>
>> Piffle. Logic and reason have been mainstays of the Christian faith
>> since its inception. And if you had an education rather than a set of
>> unanalysed prejudices you'd know that.
>
>
> The universe revolves around the earth.
> Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
> The world is flat (and on pillars)
> Bats are a kind of bird.
> Rabbits chew their cud.
> There is enough water to flood the entire planet
> Women were created from a man's rib
> Rainbows are a promise from God
>
>
>
> You are becoming a wee bit o' a bad loser Andrew
No - Andrew has stated things that religion has supported - that are not
true.
For instance
If a creator/god did indeed create the universe (No matter how many
days) - that god would have known that the earth is NOT the center of
the universe - so why did religion kill people who said otherwise?
Thom Madura
>
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "monkfish" <monkfish@nowhere> wrote in message
>> news:raSdnadwIJrNia7V...@ptd.net...
>>> Thom Madura wrote:
>>>> SO - why do you question blind faith when religion IS blind faith?
>>> That's the beauty of the invisible God.
>>> Christians are keenly aware of their faith.
>>> Atheists are not aware of their blind faith.
>>> Do you believe in the equality of all human beings?
>>>
>> What "invisible God" are you talking about? You probably meant
>> indivisible God, for our Christian God is both knowable and visible. See
>> below
>
> You nutters can't even agree among yourselves.
>
> God did a lousy job 'creating' you !
>
>
>>
>> Jesus explains further in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the
>> way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If
>> ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE
>> KNOW HIM AND HAVE SEEN HIM." Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the
>> Father, and it sufficeth us." Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long
>> time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME
>> HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father?
>> Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words
>> that I speak unto you I speak not of myself, but the FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN
>> ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS."
>>
And you believe this person.
You are just inept mentally.
If there was a such thing as a god - with an ego so big that he wanted
to be worshipped and loved by everyone - why is it that he doesn't just
appear to everyone and say it. Why do these ALMIGHTY super beings always
hide themselves in a grotto with a bunch of kids, or high on a mountain
in a burning plant - etc.
If a god really wanted to show his love =- why send his son - why not
come himself?
I do not understand why the killing was needed too. ALl he had to do was
appear in the clouds and say "I forgive you". More important - if he
really loved everyone - why appear at all in a small backwards
population of people - when the majority of the worlds population at the
time would never even find out about it.
If the christ was a god - and more importantly - part of the christian
god - the christian god has no beginning and no end - it is said at
every mass - if you have not heard it - maybe you should listen at one
instead of sleeping. If a god has no beginning and no end- he was not
born in bethlehem - nor did he die on a cross.
If he wanted everybody to believe he rose from the dead - why didn't he
appear to the people in Jerusalem rather than to nobody in the crypt. If
he really rose to heaven - why not in front of Herod or Caesar - which
would have been recorded.
Quoting the christian propaganda book is useless as proof. It was made
up by believers to support their belief - and even they did a really
rotten job of it - there are so many errors, contradictions, and
outright fictions in the bible as to call into question any of it.
The book itself is a reference book - that is what a bible is. It is
only as good as the validity of its source material. At the time it was
written - it is likely that there was NO source material for the old
testament at all. ANd - with the exception of a few apostolic letters -
which can be dated but not authenticated if their dates could work -
there exists no source material to authenticate the bible - so when you
quote the bible - you may as well be quoting a comic book.
At the same time - how many quotes will a Muslim have to make out of the
Koran - or a Jew from a Torah - to convince you their religion is
correct? Do you honestly think quoting your bible is any different - or
settles anything.
If a person had actually parted the Red Sea - you would expect the
Greeks and the Egyptians to have recorded such a world shattering event.
Yet - there is no mention of it in the historical record outside the bible.
THe basis for all of this is the main statement of Christianity
My god loved me so much that he sent his ONLY son down to earth to die
on the cross so that sins may be forgiven.
Translation
My god cared so little that instead of settling the problem himself -
which he could have done just by saying he forgave people of a sin that
no person living at the time had committed to begin with - he sent
Junior down in a human costume to trick the people into believing that
he could die and it was a great sacrifice - but since he was a god - he
really couldn't die - only the costume. May as well take the costume
back up to heaven to remove the evidence too.
I know - I'll start a new religion at the same time - one that will
torture, maim, and kill people for disagreeing with the religion even
when they are right - so as to extend the fear that they will pass off
as gods love. Thankfully - the people are not educated so they will
believe what they are told without question. That way - my religion can
collect hoards of money to build huge Cathedrals lined with gold idols
and statues and all manner of naked people in pictures on the walls -
and a huge bell to toll when it is time to bring the money. Once inside
the church - we will perform rituals where they will have to stand up,
sit down , kneel down, bow their heads, stamp their feet, shout amen,
sing Hallelujah, clap their hands, drink the wine which I will convince
them is my blood even though a god doesn't have blood - and spout all
manner of prayers to me in languages they don't understand.
The idiots - I will send all manner of tragedies upon them - and they
will actually THANK ME for it - we will teach them to believe this is
what LOVE is.
And my ministers will have Gold encrusted Carriages, Mercedes Benzes,
Rolls Royces, pope mobiles, Jet aircraft - and all manner of expensive
vestments to buy with the money they collect from the starving masses.
And YOU believe this - because god loves you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Talk about blind faith - and deaf and dumb too.
Pastor Frank
> Andrew wrote:
>> On 2008-05-23 23:07:31 +0100, Thom Madura <Tomm...@optonline.net> said:
>> > monkfish wrote:
>> >> bob young wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> flooding the entire planet
>> >>> man from a womans's rib
>> >>> rainbows a promise from god
>> >>> world is flat and on pillars.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just ilustrating the lack of logic in religion..
>> >>>
>> >>> .......these are all mythological things from The Bible
>> >>
>> >> Would you like to know how to live well?
>> >
>> > I suppose someone could live well with the money they get from selling
>> > their daughter into slavery - somewhere.
>> >
>> > Thankfully - the only non-religious US president - Abraham Lincoln -
>> > outlawed slavery - against the wishes of the Southern Conservative
>> > Christians and their churches - both of whom even fought to keep it in
>> > effect. So much for christian values.
>
> Lincoln was not quite the only one:
> I have recently been examining all the known superstitions
> of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition
> (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike,
> founded on fables and mythology.
> [Thomas Jefferson]
>
Is that why Jefferson as the nation;s superintendant of schools,
mandated all schools to teach reading and writing via the Bible?
Pastor Frank
>
Praise the Lord for the message. Yet, I'm sure you will excuse me if I
quote Christ at every opportunity, for I find churches ignore His holy and
inerrant words, in favour of those of Paul, who btw never quotes Christ.
Pastor Frank
exist. Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested
in
Jesus Christ giving His life for us sinners on the cross of Calvary. We
therefore know our God and have seen Him through Jesus Christ, our Lord and
Saviour. (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
Atheists don't know our God and therefore can't see manifestations of
love and care in human beings, and to the death if need be, such as we see
in Jesus Christ. (Jesus in John 3:3)
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Thom Madura" <Tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:48335f7f$0$25027$607e...@cv.net...
>>>
>>> I asked you to explain god's love - you religious say god is love. IF
>>> bad things happen - get over it - is how you explain god;'s love - then
>>> god IS NOT love.
>>>
>> Typical atheist again to know what something is not, but apparently
>> clueless as to what something is. So, if God is not love, then what is
>> God? Atheists will likely say, that God is an invisible ogre in the sky.
>> But to Christ the word meant a quality of being, an ideal of perfection,
>> such as love which He proved on the cross of Calvary.
>
> You are still quoting the christ - and have yet to provide SOURCE material
> for the quotes. A reference book like the bible is NOT a source - it only
> refers to other documents. Surely a powerful god as yours would have made
> sure this documentation is available for all to see in his wonder and
> exclaim his truth. What - no source material - Oh well -= more fiction.
>
The whole point about believing is faith, and documentation does not produce
faith.
>
>> As to the subject above, I would hate to see blind faith disappear. I
>> like to have blind faith in my loved ones, don't you?
>
> Do you have blind faith in your christ
> According to his web site
> " Easter time in 1935, Jesus appeared to the young Sun Myung Moon as he
> was praying in the Korean mountains. In that vision, Jesus asked him to
> continue the work which he had begun on earth nearly 2,000 years before.
> Jesus asked him to complete the task of establishing God's kingdom on
> earth and bringing His peace to humankind."
> If you do - you must believe in Rev. Moon.
>
They are not the invention of Rev. Moon.
Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
> monkfish wrote:
>> bob young wrote:
>>>
>>> flooding the entire planet
>>> man from a womans's rib
>>> rainbows a promise from god
>>> world is flat and on pillars.
>>> Just ilustrating the lack of logic in religion..
>>> .......these are all mythological things from The Bible
>>
>> You really should read the Bible to the end and in context.
>> Would you like to know how to live well?
>
> I suppose someone could live well with the money they get from selling
> their daughter into slavery - somewhere.
> Thankfully - the only non-religious US president - Abraham Lincoln -
> outlawed slavery - against the wishes of the Southern Conservative
> Christians and their churches - both of whom even fought to keep it in
>
You sure love to spout prejudice and hate, don't you? It was the church
who forming the underground railway, giving sanctuary to escaping black
slaves, not atheists. It also was the church who fought to abolish slavery.
Look up the noted churchman and politician Wilberforce. There as no atheist
fighting for the abolition of slavery.
bob young
There is none you blithering Idiot. Earthtquakes exist [see
China today.
[What is the coun now? 80,000 dead and still counting - all
the work of your loving god?]
bob young
Blithering Idiot. Insurance policies and bibles are written
by the same specie.
The first serves a purpose, the second saps the brain; as
you never tire of demonstrating
monkfish
> bob young wrote:
>> Andrew wrote:
>>> bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
>>>> Andrew wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> God works through human beings.
>>>> Not quite correct.
>>
>> 100% correct. Show in verifiable terms any single exception
>
> Easy.
>
> American slavery
>
> An institution SUPPORTED by Southern Religious Conservatives and their
> Christian religions and god.
>
> Abolished by the only American President who NEVER was a member of a
> religion - Abraham Lincoln.
>
> You cannot show that a god had anything to do with Mr. Lincoln's part in
> this. To do so you would need to prove a god exists first - preferably
> by presenting him/it in person. I will settle for a TV interview though.
>
> Now you provide testable and verifiable evidence that a god had worked
> THROUGH a person to do anything. In order to do so - you will need to
> prove will again need to prove a god exists.
I'm getting tired of your simplistic approach
to the spirituality of people, famous or otherwise.
[quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_religion
Following their emancipation, some former slaves in Maryland presented
Lincoln with a gift of a Bible. Lincoln reportedly replied:
In regard to this great book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God
has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was
communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from
wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are
to be found portrayed in it.
.... .... ....
Lincoln was a man of deep faith.
[/quote]
monkfish
Some people abuse religion.
bob young
Yes so 'He' demonstrated in China and Burma this last couple
of weeks. Combined it is soon going to be 150,000 dead, a
goodly proportion of them innocent children.
Kindy explain your love god's logic. Thank you.
monkfish
Are you jealous?
bob young
The Church were the last to finally accept slavery as wrong.
It is well documented
bob young
Andrew wrote:
>
> On 2008-05-24 06:19:02 +0100, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
>
> >> Do you understand the concept of "story", Bob. I know that might be
> >> taxing your intellect a little, but I'll try to explain it to you.
> >> Sometimes, when somebody wants to put over an idea, they don't simply
> >> do it using a sequence of facts. Sometimes they tell what we call a
> >> "story". Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.
> >
> > You are 'fast' all right. I could accept your pathetic
> > argument for maybe one of the above, but for all nine of
> > them !?
>
> Why is the number difficult. They're all from the same part of the
> Bible. Oh - and why do you think a rainbow cannot be both a visual
> phenomenon caused by refraction of light through moisture in the air
> AND a promise from God?
the universe revolves around the earth',
THAT Biblical quote is clear, it tells primitives where they
came from
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> "Andrew" <thec...@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
> news:200805211815478930-thecroft@macunlimitednet infantile
> > On 2008-05-21 06:13:09 +0100, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
> >>
> >> I agree. Here are some examples :
> >> The universe revolves around the earth.
> >> Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
> >> The world is flat (and on pillars)
> >> Bats are a kind of bird.
> >> Rabbits chew their cud.
> >> There is enough water to flood the entire planet
> >> Women were created from a man's rib
> >> Rainbows are a promise from God
> >> [Acknowledgements to 'James, Seattle'
> >
> > Been through that bollocks with you before Bob
> >
> Bob Young prefers to waste his life lambasting his very own, personal
> and private infantile fantasies. He appears to be an anti-Semite, for his
> complaints are mostly against the Jewish Tanakh.
Clutching at straws again I see.
bob young
Methinks man creates his gods and then manipulates them to
his heart's content.,
Pester Frank is a prime example.
Definition of a Christian........
"Anyone psychotic enough to believe in a make-believe
creator of the universe who had a mortal son".
I think that includes every single Christian in the world.
[Al Klein]
"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the
universe nor immovable, but
moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both
philosophically and theologically
false, and at the least an error of faith."
[Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei]
monkfish
The Church?
Some clueless Christians, you mean?
monkfish
It would be much more accurate to say that we find God.
bob young
You conjure up the vision of 'a pretty wild pair'
[LOL]
Andrew
>
>
> Andrew wrote:
>>
>> On 2008-05-24 06:19:02 +0100, bob young <alasp...@netvigator.com> said:
>>
>>>> Do you understand the concept of "story", Bob. I know that might be
>>>> taxing your intellect a little, but I'll try to explain it to you.
>>>> Sometimes, when somebody wants to put over an idea, they don't simply
>>>> do it using a sequence of facts. Sometimes they tell what we call a
>>>> "story". Stop me if I'm going too fast for you.
>>>
>>> You are 'fast' all right. I could accept your pathetic
>>> argument for maybe one of the above, but for all nine of
>>> them !?
>>
>> Why is the number difficult. They're all from the same part of the
>> Bible. Oh - and why do you think a rainbow cannot be both a visual
>> phenomenon caused by refraction of light through moisture in the air
>> AND a promise from God?
>
> the universe revolves around the earth',
A perfectly rational and logical position for a person writing before
Copernicus. Try it yourself. Lie in a field for a day and a night - you
can watch the universe revolve around you. Any number of rational,
logical people - scientists included - held exactly that view on the
basis of evidence for thousands of years. Again, though, the image is
poetic.
> 'a woman was created from a man's' rib?
See below
It's a creation narrative Bob. You were expecting what, exactly? You
make the assumption, though, that those who told this story regarded in
a literal sense. Such an approach would have made little sense to
people of the time. Creation myths existed not to explain in any
scientific sense the beginning of the universe, rather to encapture the
society's sense of place, identity and purpose.
Andrew
>> I agree. Here are some examples :
>>
>> The universe revolves around the earth.
>> Stars are pinpricks in the heavens.
>> The world is flat (and on pillars)
>> Bats are a kind of bird.
>> Rabbits chew their cud.
>> There is enough water to flood the entire planet
>> Women were created from a man's rib
>> Rainbows are a promise from God
>>
>> [Acknowledgments to 'James, Seattle'
>>
>>
>> You are becoming a wee bit o' a bad loser Andrew
>
> No - Andrew has stated things that religion has supported - that are not true.
>
> For instance
>
> If a creator/god did indeed create the universe (No matter how many
> days) - that god would have known that the earth is NOT the center of
> the universe - so why did religion kill people who said otherwise?
What God knows and what religions know are two entirely different
things. Since you speak of killing people who thought the earth was the
centre of the universe, you're probably referring to Galileo et al. A
lot of that comes down to politics and power rather than belief.
Thom Madura
Jefferson - however - was a deist.
Thom Madura
Money always enters the picture somewhere!
Thom Madura
So - what you are saying is that you don't believe in Rev. Moon
WHY