Organizations for Recovery
ob...@shadow.net
The following is a list of secular and Christian organizations,
groups, clinics etc. to assist you or someone you love in recovery.
THIS LIST IS NOT COMPLETE AND IS NOT A ENDORSEMENT OF OR
RECOMMENDATION FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING.
SECULAR RECOVERY GROUPS
Addicts Anonymous
P.O. Box 057394
West Palm Beach FL 33405
Adrenaline Addicts Anonymous
P.O. Box 1207
Cambria, CA 93428
1-800-262-2278
New 12 Step Organization based on idea that what we call
"stress" (in all forms) is an addiction (often unconcious) to
adrenaline. Adrenaline, like "speed", cocaine, even caffine,
helps repress underlying feelings of loss, abandonment, and
disconnection at an essential level.
Adult Children of Alcohoics
Central Service Board
P.O. Box 3216
Torrence, CA 90505
Adult Children of Disfunctional Families
P.O. Box 462
Fond du Lac, WI 54935
(414-921-6991)
Adult Chilren of Sexual Dysfunction
P.O. Box 8084 Lake Street Station
Minneapolis MN 55408
Alcoholics Anonymous
P.O. Box 459
Grand Central Station
New York, NY 10163
212-870-3400
AA Grapevine Editors: gved...@aol.com
*-=E-Mail Addresses Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Offices=-*
Conference Coordinator & Eastern Canada Region Correspondance
10233...@compuserve.com (Richard B.)
Coperation W/T Professional Community & S.E. Region Correspondance
10233...@compuserve.com (Eileen G.)
Correctional Facilities & SW Region Correspondance
10233...@compuserve.com (Sarah P.)
Group Services & West Central Region Correspondance
73410...@compuserve.com (Helen T.)
International & All Overseas Correspondance
10233...@compuserve.com (Joanie M.)
Literature & Western Canada Region Correspondance
76245...@compuserve.com (Pat R.)
Public Information & NE Region Correspondance
10233...@compuserve.com (Valerie O.)
Regional Forums and East Central Region Correspondance
10233...@compuserve.com (Lois F.)
Spanish Services & Spanish Language Correspondance, U.S./CANADA
1023...@compuserve.com (Danny M.)
Staff Coordinator and Eastern Canada Region Correspondance
1023...@compuserve.com (John G.)
Treatmanet Facilities, Loners/Internationalists & Pacific Region Correspondance
10233...@compuserve.com (Susan U.)
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc.
P.O.Box 182
Madison Square Station
New York, NY 10159
1-800-356-9996
Offers self-help recovery program for families and friends of
alcoholics whether or not the aldoholic seks help or even
recognizes the existence of a drinking problem.
American Anorexia/Bulemia Association (AA/BA)
418 E. 76th Street
New York, NY 10021
(212)734-1114
American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM)
Suite 409
5225 Wisconsin Avenue
Washington, DC 20015
(202) 244-8948
Anorexia Nervosa & Related Eating Disorders (ANRED)
P.O. Box 5102
Eugene, OR 97405
(503)344-1144
Batterers Anonymous
8485 Tamarind Ave., Suite D
Fontana, CA 92335
(909-355-1100)
Center for Stress & Anxiety Disorders
1535 Western Ave.
Albany, NY 12203
Chemically Dependent Anonymous
P.O. Box 423
Severna Park, MD 21146
(301-647-7060)
Clutterers Anonymous
PO Box 25884
Santa Ana, CA 92799-5884
Cocaine Anonymous
Box 1357
Culver City, CA 90232
(213)839-1141
CoDA Co-Dependents Anonymous, Inc.
P.O. Box 33577,
Phoenix, Arizona 85067-3577
(602) 277 7991
CoDA Co-Dependents Anonymous
P.O. Box 1292
London N4 2XX
England
tel +44 71 409 0029
COSA-(Co-Dependants of Sex Addicts)
P.O. Box 14537
Minneapolis, MN 55414
(612-537-6904)
Debtors Anonymous
P.O. Box 20322
New York, NY 10025
212-642-8220
Depressed Anonymous
1013 Wagner Ave.
Louisville, KY 40217
(502-969-3359)
Dual Disorders Anonymous
P.O. Box 4045
Des Plaines, IL 60016
(708-462-3380)
Emotional Health Anonymous
P.O. Box 429
Glendale CA 91202
(310-679-2671)
Emotions Anonymous
P.O. Box 4245
St. Paul, MN 612-647-9712
Families Anonymous, Inc.
Post Office Box 3475
Culver City, CA 90231
800-736-9805
Betty Ford Center (Treatment Center)
California
800-854-9211
Gamblers Anonymous
P.O. Box 17173
Los Angeles, CA 90017
213-386-8789
Gam-Anon Family Groups (a fellowship of husbands, wives, relatives, and friends
P.O. Box 157 of compulsive gamblers)
Whitestone, NY 11357
(718-352-1671)
http://www.gamblersanonymous.org
GROW
209A Edgeware Road
Marrickville NSW 2204 Australia
ph (02) 516 3733
GROW's Program of Personal Growth, Group MEthod, and CAring and Sharing
Community have all been developed from the findings of former mental
sufferers in the course of rebuilding their lives after mental breakdown.
USA GROW National Centre
PO Box 3667
Champaign, IL 61826-0667
ph (217) 352-6989
GROW Canada
c/o Eileen Voisin
70 Lawndale Crescent
Brampton, ON L6S3L4
ph (905)-453-0771
GROW United Kingdom
c/o Mrs. Zena Stokes
68 Stoke Green
Covnetry
ph (0203) 455 707
Hazelden Foundation (Treatment Center)
P.O. Box 11
CO3
Center City, Minn. 55012-0011
1-800-257-7810
http://www.hazelden.com
Impotents Anonymous & Al-Anon
P.O. Box 5299
Maryville, TN 37802
(615-983-6064)
Incest Survivors Anonymous
P.O. Box 5613
Long Beach, CA 90805
(310-422-1632)
Isolators Anonymous
130 W. 75th St.
New York, NY 10023
(212-877-1808)
Marijuana Anonymous
World Service Office
P.O. Box 2912
Van Nuys, CA 91404
(800) 766-6779
Marriage Savers Institute
9500 Michael's Court
Bethesda, MD 20817
The Meadows (Treatment Center)
Arizona
800-621-4062
Mental Illness Anonymous
1895 Laurel Ave.(Mary Episcopal Church)
St. Paul MN 55106
(612-646-6175)
Moderation Management
PO Box 6005
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48106-6005
Narcotics Anonymous
P.O. Box 9999
Van Nuys, CA 91409
818-780-3951
Nar-Anon Family Group
P.O. Box 2562
Palos Verdes, CA 90274
(310-547-5800)
National Anorexic Aid Society (NAAS)
5796 Karl Road
Columbus, OH 43229
(614)436-1112
National Association for Children of Alcoholics
11426 Rockville Pike, Suite 100
Rockville, MD 20852
301-468-0985
National Association of Anorexia Nervosa & Associated Disorders (ANAD)
Box 7
Highland Park, IL 60035
(708)831-3438
National Clearinghouse for Alcohol Information
P.O. Box 1908
Rockville, MD 20850
National Council on Alcoholism; Drug Dependence (NCADD)
12 West 21st Street
New York, NY 10010
212-206-6770
National Self-Help Clearing House
City University Graduate Center
25 West 43rd Street
Room 620
New York, NY 10036
(212)642-2944
Nicotine Anonymous World Services
2118 Greenwich St.
San Francisco, CA 94123
(415)922-8575
Obsessive-Compulsive Anonymous
P.O. Box 215
New Hyde Park, NY 11040
(516-741-4901)
Overcomers Outreach
2290 W. Whittier Blvd.
Suite D
La Habra, CA 90631
213-697-3994
800-310-3001
Overeaters Anonymous World Service Office
P.O. Box 44020
Rio Rancho, NM 87174-4020
505-891-2664
Palmetto Addiction Recovery Center
86 Palmetto Road
Rayville, Louisiana 71269
800-203-6612
http://www.palmettocenter.com/
Pill Addicts Anonymous
P.O. Box 278
Reading, PA 19603
(215)-372-1128
RCA - Recovering Couples Anonymous
PO Box 11872
St. Louis, MO 63105
(314)830-2600, FAX 830-2670 Email
INTERNET:rca...@AOL.COM
RCA is twelve step group for couples. All are welcome. The only
requirement for membership is the desire to remain in a committed
relationship.
Rational Recovery
P.O. Box 800
Lotus, CA 95651
916-621-4374
S-Anon International Family Groups (for spouses or friends of sexaholics)
Central Office
P.O. Box 111242
Nashville, TN 37222-1242
(615) 833-3152
Secular Organizations for Sobriety
5521 Grosvenor Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90066
Phone: (310) 821-8430
Sex Addicts Anonymous
International Service Organization
P.O.Box 70949
Houston, Tx 77270
(713) 869-4902
Sex and Love Addicts Anonumous (SLAA)
The Augustine Fellowship
Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, Fellowship Wide Services
PO Box 119 New Town Branch
Boston, MA 02258
(617) 332-1845
Sexaholics Anonymous
Central Office
P.O. Box 111910
Nashville, TN 37222-1910
(615) 331-6230
S-Anon International Family Groups (for spouses or friends of sexaholics)
Central Office
P.O. Box 111242
Nashville, TN 37222-1242
(615) 833-3152
Sexual Compulsives Anonymous
P.O. Box 1585, Old Chelsea Station
New York, NY 10011
1-800-977-HEAL
Web -- http://www.sca-recovery.org/
Email: in...@sca-recovery.org
SMART Recovery
3500 Chardon Road
Willoughby, Ohio 44094
(216) 975-1144
Society of Americans for Recovery (SOAR)
Suite 500
1317 F Street N.W.
Washington, DC 20004
202-347-4257
(Founder & Chair: U.S. Senator Harold Hughes, Ret.)
Women For Sobriety
P.O. Box 618
Quakerstown, PA 19851
WFSob...@aol.com
http://www.mediapulse.com/wfs/
CHRISTIAN and other Religious RECOVERY GROUPS
12 Steps to Freedom (Alcohol/Drug Abuse)
3100 S.E. 68th Ave. #19
Camas, WA 98607
(360) 944-1296
Alcoholics for Christ
N. Campbell Drive
Royal Oak, MI 48067
(800) 441-7877
Alcoholics for Christ
Box 964
Poway, CA 92064
(619) 486-2320
Alcoholics Victorious
National Headquarters
IUGM
1045 Swift Street
Kansas City, MO 64116
Phone: (816) 471-8020 FAX (816) 471-3718
Beauty For Ashes (Sexual Abuse)
4410 Alexis Rd.
Toledo, OH 43623
(419)473-2300
Changing Lives Ministries
8196 Grapewin
P.O. Box 2325
Corona, CA 91718
714-734-4300
Christian Affiliated Network (Alcohol/Drug Abuse)
Knoxvile St.
San Diego, CA
(619) 275-5729
Christian Alcoholics
Rehabilitation Association
FOA Road
Pocahontas, Mississippi 39072
Christians in Recovery
http://www.goshen.net/cir
Christians United Against Sexual Abuse
Oak Brook Christian Center
3100 Midwest Center
Oak Brook, IL 60521
(708) 257-8755
Confident Kids
720 West Whittier Blvd. #H
LaHabra, CA 90631
310-690-9701
Confident Kids is a support group program for pre-school
through pre-teen age children from 'high-stress' homes.
It is designed to teach basic life skills in a supportive,
encouraging, and grace-full environment.
Ephesians 5:18 Life Ministries (Alcohol/Drugs)
1620 Elton Road #204
Silver Spring, MD 20903
(301) 439-7191
Exodus International (people seeking to establish a heterosexual identity)
P. O. Box 2121
San Rafael, CA 94912
Phone: 415-454-1017
FAX: 415-454-7826
The Florida Net (Drug & Alcohol Abuse)
C/O Ron Ross
Park Ave. Baptist Church
Titusville, FL 32780
(407) 269-6702
Free to Care Ministries (Sexual Abuse)
P.O. Box 1491
Placentia, CA 92670
(714) 528-5413
Freedom From Eating Disorders
1352 N.E. Ray Ct.
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503) 640-0380
Institute for Christian Living/Renewed life Resources
P.O. Box 47482
Plymouth, MN 55447
(612) 593-1791
International Union of Gospel Missions (IUGM)
1045 Swift Street
Kansas City, MO 64116
Phone: (816) 471-8020 FAX (816) 471-3718
The IUGM is an assocation of over 250 rescue missions and other
inner city ministries that are helping the homeless, the poor,
disadvantaged youth, and the addicted in urban centers thoughout
the world.
JACS (Jewish Alcoholics, Chemically Dependent Persons and Significant Others)
426 West 58th Street
New York, NY 10019
02112)489-6229
JACS (Jewish Alcoholics, Chemically Dependent Persons and Significant
Others) is a Jewish recovery organization that supports information for
and outreach to alcoholic and chemically dependent jews. It is a program
of the New York Jewish Family and Children Services.
http://www.shamash.org/health/jacs
Living Free
5422 Rebolla Lane
San Diego, CA 92124
619-275-6639
National Association for Christian Recovery
PO Box 11095
Whittier, CA 90603
310-697-6201.
The NACR is a membership organization for people who are
interested in growing in their Christian faith while in the
recovery process. Finding Christians who understand recovery
can sometimes be difficult. And finding people in recovery
who understand Christianity can also be difficult. The NACR
was founded in 1990 both to help encourage individuals in
recovery and to encourage the development of recovery ministries
in the Christian community. It's principal goal is networking
- connecting people who are feeling isolated from the larger
Christian recovery movement.
New Chapter Recovery Ministries (Eating Disorders)
P.O. Box 11247
Ft. Wayne, IN 46856
(219) 489-5565
Overcomers, Inc.
4235 Mt. Sterling Ave.
Titusville, FL 32780
407-264-0757
Overcomers Outreach, Inc.
2290 West Whittier Blvd.
La Habra, CA 90631
213-697-3994
Prison Fellowship International
PO Box 17434
Washington, DC 20041
Voice: 1(703)481-0000
Fax: 1(703)481-0003
email in...@pfi.org
Recovery Works
c/o Church of the Good Shepherd
805 S.E. Ellsworth Ave.
Vancouver, WA. 98664
206-893-7770
S.A.V.E. (Substance Abuse Volunteer Efforts)
2568 Washinton Blvd.
Ogden, Utah 84401
(801) 621-SAVE
http://www.nicoh.com/heritage/SAVE/
mailto:SAV...@aol.com
S.A.V.E. respects the spiritual principles of the LDS
Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints)
as well as those from Alcoholics Anonymous, A1-Anon and
ACOA. However, SAVE claims no official sanction from any
of these groups.
Substance Abuse Victorious
One Cascade Plaza
Akron, OH 44308
Theis Enterprises (Sexual Abuse)
P.O. Box 5093
Woodbridge, IL 60517
(708) 515-0696
Victim to Victor Ministries, Inc. (Sexual Abuse)
P.O. Box 700-Victor
Redondo Beach, CA 90277
(310) 543-2672
CHRISTIAN RECOVERY CLINICS & CENTERS
AlphaCare Therapy Services, Inc.
2550 Windy Hill Rd. #321
Marietta, GA 30067
(800) 916-2020
Behavioral Medicine Center
1710 Barton Rd.
Redlands, CA 92373
(800) 752-5999
Calvary Ranch
13610 Willow Road
Lakeside, CA 92040
(800) 404-2258 9am til 4pm pct, mon thru fri
Calvary Ranch is a 12 step christian program with over 25 years of powerful
service to the Lord. Both men and woman can find tremndous help here.
Adults only no youth as of yet.
Dunklin Memorial Camp
3342 SW Hosannah Lane
Okeechobee, FL 34974
407-597-2841
International Union of Gospel Missions (long term/low cost treatment resource)
1045 Swift St.
N. Kansas City, MO 64116-4127
(800) 624-5156
e-mail: iu...@fileshop.com
Minirth-Meier Clinic (This is problably THE Christian Clinic for
2100 N. Collins Blvd. recovery of all kinds). There are associated
Richardson, TX 75080 clinics in: Chicago, Ill
214-669-1733 Little Rock, Arkansas
800-NEW-LIFE Washington, D.C.
Los Angeles, CA
New Life Clinic (part of above) Laguna Hills, CA
7080 Clodus Fields Dr. Newport Beach, CA
Dallas, TX 75251 Orange, CA Palm Springs, CA
214-387-4200 Longview, TX Ft. Worth, TX
Sherman, TX San Antonio, TX
Mungadze Association (specializing in ritual abuse, dissociative disorders)
2350 W. Airport Freeway, #250
Bedford, Texas 76022
800-388-1838
New Life Treatment Center
P.O. Box 38
Woodstock, MN 56186
Pacific Hills Treatment Center
32244 Paseo Adelanto #E
San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675
1-800-NO-ABUSE
Pine Rest Christian Hospital
300 68th St. SE
Grand Rapids, MI 49501
(800) 678-5500
Rapha Treatment centers
5500 Interstate Pkwy N STE 515
Atlanta, GA 30328
800-383-HOPE
Remuda Ranch (treatment for anorexia and bulimia)
P.O. Box 2481
Wickenburg, AZ 85358
(800) 445-1900
Salvation Army (long term/low cost treatment resources)
South (404) 728-1243
Midwest (708) 294-2188
West (310) 534-7113
Northeast (914) 620-7459
Victory Outreach (long term /low cost treatment resource)
454 Cobera Ave.
La Puente, CA 91746
(818) 961-4910
Yellowstone Treatment Centers
1732 72nd Street W
Billings, Montana 59106-3599
800-726-6755
EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN RECOVERY
Sininauhaliitto (Finnish Blue Ribbon)
PB 12 (H=E4meentie 12, 5th fl.)
FIN-00551 Helsinki
FINLAND
int. code+358-(9)0-7260 600 operator
int. code+358-(9)0-7260 591 telefax
The Finnish Blue Ribbon is a federation for Christian
prevention and rehabilitation organizations working among
alcohol and drug abusers as well as the homeless.
The Blue Ribbon, or Blue Band, was founded in 1936 and
ten years ago it gathered together over 60 Christian
organizations working in the same field. These organizations
are in charge of day centres, accomodation, care, and
rehabilitation units. In homes and institutions they are
able to place as many as 900 customers. Pathological
gamblers have their own special programmes.
If any of the above information is incorrect or needs to be updated
please e-mail: ob...@shadow.net
Updates to this file and further information on recovery is available
at: http://www.goshen.net/cir
Software for Recovering People
http://www.shadow.net/~obie
_________________________________________________________________
Copyright 1995, 1996 S. O. Brennan All Rights Reserved
This data file is the sole property of S. O. Brennan. It may not be altered
or edited in any way. It may be reproduced only in its entirety for
circulation as "freeware," without charge. All reproductions of this data
file must contain the copyright notice (i.e., "Copyright 1995 by S. O. Brennan)
This data file may not be used without the permission of S. O. Brennan
for resale or the enhancement of any other product sold.
Jed
ob...@shadow.net wrote:
| The following is a list of secular and Christian organizations,
| groups, clinics etc. to assist you or someone you love in recovery.
| THIS LIST IS NOT COMPLETE AND IS NOT A ENDORSEMENT OF OR
| RECOMMENDATION FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING.
|
| SECULAR RECOVERY GROUPS
|
| Addicts Anonymous
| P.O. Box 057394
| West Palm Beach FL 33405
There are NO "Anonymous" read 12 Step groups that are secular. They are
all based on Christianity. Please stop misinforming people.
| Adrenaline Addicts Anonymous
> P.O. Box 1207
> Cambria, CA 93428
> 1-800-262-2278
> New 12 Step Organization based on idea that what we call
> "stress" (in all forms) is an addiction (often unconcious) to
> adrenaline. Adrenaline, like "speed", cocaine, even caffine,
> helps repress underlying feelings of loss, abandonment, and
> disconnection at an essential level.
This is the most idiotic group I think I have ever read about.
>
> Adult Children of Alcohoics
> Central Service Board
> P.O. Box 3216
> Torrence, CA 90505
>
No, I was wrong. THIS is the most absurd group I have ever heard of.
> Adult Children of Disfunctional Families
> P.O. Box 462
> Fond du Lac, WI 54935
> (414-921-6991)
I was wrong again! This group sounds just plain idiotic!
> Alcoholics Anonymous
> P.O. Box 459
> Grand Central Station
> New York, NY 10163
> 212-870-3400
Goes without saying...
>
> AA Grapevine Editors: gved...@aol.com
The Propoganda 12 Step machine
> Clutterers Anonymous
> PO Box 25884
> Santa Ana, CA 92799-5884
Let me guess...It's a disease, right?
> Debtors Anonymous
> P.O. Box 20322
> New York, NY 10025
> 212-642-8220
You've got to be kidding.
> Emotions Anonymous
> P.O. Box 4245
> St. Paul, MN 612-647-9712
Feelings are just symptoms of an underlined disease I'll bet.
> Betty Ford Center (Treatment Center)
> California
> 800-854-9211
Betty Ford should be in prison for the kind of stuff mindfucking that is
being done to people at her 12 Step Prison.
> Gamblers Anonymous
> P.O. Box 17173
> Los Angeles, CA 90017
> 213-386-8789
I'll bet you fifty bucks they all got a disease too!Praise Brother Bill!
> Hazelden Foundation (Treatment Center)
> P.O. Box 11
> CO3
> Center City, Minn. 55012-0011
> 1-800-257-7810
http://www.hazelden.com
Don't EVEN get me started.
> National Council on Alcoholism; Drug Dependence (NCADD)
> 12 West 21st Street
> New York, NY 10010
> 212-206-6770
A front organization for AA.
> Sexaholics Anonymous
> Central Office
> P.O. Box 111910
> Nashville, TN 37222-1910
> (615) 331-6230
You mean doin' the nasty is a disease too?
> Alcoholics for Christ
> N. Campbell Drive
> Royal Oak, MI 48067
> (800) 441-7877
Isn't that what AA is?
Reese
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:34:27 -0800, Jed <anon...@no.com> wrote:
>ob...@shadow.net wrote:
>
>| The following is a list of secular and Christian organizations,
>| groups, clinics etc. to assist you or someone you love in recovery.
>| THIS LIST IS NOT COMPLETE AND IS NOT A ENDORSEMENT OF OR
>| RECOMMENDATION FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING.
<list of organizations--snipped>
Do any of these outfits encourage lying like Rational Recovery does in
it's literature?
Reese
G. Allen Perry
Jed <anon...@no.com> wrote:
>| SECULAR RECOVERY GROUPS
>|
>| Addicts Anonymous
>| P.O. Box 057394
>| West Palm Beach FL 33405
>There are NO "Anonymous" read 12 Step groups that are secular. They are
>all based on Christianity. Please stop misinforming people.
>> Alcoholics for Christ
>> N. Campbell Drive
>> Royal Oak, MI 48067
>> (800) 441-7877
>Isn't that what AA is?
I don't know about you captain Jed, but where I come from, everybody
in the meetings hates christians. It seems to me, you might be
involved in a little misinformation.
Don't give me any of this story about AA starting from some group of
rabid christians cause I have already heard it. Thats really beside
the point. The United States was formed by a bunch of rich white guys
(many of whom owned slaves) but soon they will be a minority. Nobody
in government today believes in slavery or owns slaves. Deal with the
reality today when you offer information. The reality where I live is
that people in the fellowship are actually rabid christian haters.
Greg P.
----------------------------
I want to feel what Mary felt when God spent his seed.
Derek M.
Yo Jed,
obie has been posting this and several others for a very long time now.
He/she I never bothered to check has broken these down into several
categories, this is only one of them. He even posts how to get to the IRC
recovery chat rooms listing the currently active channels by name and net.
this is provided as a service so that individuals can find whatever path
in recovery they wish. We don't have to agree with any of these resources
to respect the hard work that obie has done for years or the fact that not
everyone wants recovery the same way we do.
--
"It is better to be wrong for the right reasons than to be right for the
wrong reasons."
Derek M.
Jed <anon...@no.com> wrote in article <331628...@no.com>...
: ob...@shadow.net wrote:
:
: | The following is a list of secular and Christian organizations,
: | groups, clinics etc. to assist you or someone you love in recovery.
: | THIS LIST IS NOT COMPLETE AND IS NOT A ENDORSEMENT OF OR
: | RECOMMENDATION FOR ANY OF THE FOLLOWING.
: |
: | SECULAR RECOVERY GROUPS
: |
: | Addicts Anonymous
: | P.O. Box 057394
: | West Palm Beach FL 33405
:
: There are NO "Anonymous" read 12 Step groups that are secular. They are
: all based on Christianity. Please stop misinforming people.
:
:
: | Adrenaline Addicts Anonymous
: > P.O. Box 1207
: > Cambria, CA 93428
: > 1-800-262-2278
: > New 12 Step Organization based on idea that what we call
: > "stress" (in all forms) is an addiction (often unconcious) to
: > adrenaline. Adrenaline, like "speed", cocaine, even caffine,
: > helps repress underlying feelings of loss, abandonment, and
: > disconnection at an essential level.
:
: This is the most idiotic group I think I have ever read about.
:
: >
: > Adult Children of Alcohoics
: > Central Service Board
: > P.O. Box 3216
: > Torrence, CA 90505
: >
:
: No, I was wrong. THIS is the most absurd group I have ever heard of.
:
: > Adult Children of Disfunctional Families
: > P.O. Box 462
: > Fond du Lac, WI 54935
: > (414-921-6991)
:
: I was wrong again! This group sounds just plain idiotic!
:
:
: > Alcoholics Anonymous
: > P.O. Box 459
: > Grand Central Station
: > New York, NY 10163
: > 212-870-3400
:
: Goes without saying...
: >
: > AA Grapevine Editors: gved...@aol.com
:
: The Propoganda 12 Step machine
:
:
: > Clutterers Anonymous
: > PO Box 25884
: > Santa Ana, CA 92799-5884
:
: Let me guess...It's a disease, right?
:
: > Debtors Anonymous
: > P.O. Box 20322
: > New York, NY 10025
: > 212-642-8220
:
: You've got to be kidding.
:
: > Emotions Anonymous
: > P.O. Box 4245
: > St. Paul, MN 612-647-9712
:
: Feelings are just symptoms of an underlined disease I'll bet.
:
: > Betty Ford Center (Treatment Center)
: > California
: > 800-854-9211
:
: Betty Ford should be in prison for the kind of stuff mindfucking that is
: being done to people at her 12 Step Prison.
:
: > Gamblers Anonymous
: > P.O. Box 17173
: > Los Angeles, CA 90017
: > 213-386-8789
:
: I'll bet you fifty bucks they all got a disease too!Praise Brother Bill!
:
:
: > Hazelden Foundation (Treatment Center)
: > P.O. Box 11
: > CO3
: > Center City, Minn. 55012-0011
: > 1-800-257-7810
: http://www.hazelden.com
:
: Don't EVEN get me started.
:
: > National Council on Alcoholism; Drug Dependence (NCADD)
: > 12 West 21st Street
: > New York, NY 10010
: > 212-206-6770
:
: A front organization for AA.
:
: > Sexaholics Anonymous
: > Central Office
: > P.O. Box 111910
: > Nashville, TN 37222-1910
: > (615) 331-6230
:
: You mean doin' the nasty is a disease too?
:
: > Alcoholics for Christ
: > N. Campbell Drive
: > Royal Oak, MI 48067
: > (800) 441-7877
:
: Isn't that what AA is?
:
G. Allen Perry
Jed is not real smart
He does not know the diff'rence
Between simple words
Anonymous and christian
Don't mean the same thing round here
Chris!
G. Allen Perry wrote:
::snipped::
>..but where I come from, everybody in the meetings hates christians...
> ...The reality where I live is
> that people in the fellowship are actually rabid christian haters...
Now I am curious. Then why do you use Christian ideology (12 Steps,
etc.) as a way of life and foundation for sobriety?
G. Allen Perry wrote:
Reuben Muns
"Chris!" <mlt...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>Now I am curious. Then why do you use Christian ideology (12 Steps,
>etc.) as a way of life and foundation for sobriety?
>
Now *I* am curious. The 12 steps are Christian ideology?????? I
haven't seen them in the King James or any other version of the
Bible.
Reuben
G. Allen Perry
Sure seems obvious
No-one knows it's christian thought
Read my god thoughts post
Ask them about it yourself
They are the christian haters
Mikey
G Allen Perry
Makes a non haiku posting
What happened G.P.?
Mikey
--
God, grant me the serenity of Droopy D.
G. Allen Perry
Chris can enlighten
us all about history
of the Oxford Group
problem it's got no bearing
on the fellowship today
G. Allen Perry
Tanka ain't haiku
It is properly labeled
Has two extra lines
They're seven syllables each
Rhyme neither required nor banned
Derek M.
Because christianity has never had the corner stone on spirituality. The
12 & 12 can be correlated with almost every religion. Religion is
irrelevant to recovery. You will be assimilated....;}
--
"It is better to be wrong for the right reasons than to be right for the
wrong reasons."
Derek M.
Chris! <mlt...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
<331734...@sprintmail.com>...
: G. Allen Perry wrote:
:
: ::snipped::
: >..but where I come from, everybody in the meetings hates christians...
: > ...The reality where I live is
: > that people in the fellowship are actually rabid christian haters...
:
: Now I am curious. Then why do you use Christian ideology (12 Steps,
: etc.) as a way of life and foundation for sobriety?
:
: G. Allen Perry wrote:
:
Reese
On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:38:00 -0800, "Chris!" <mlt...@sprintmail.com>
wrote:
>G. Allen Perry wrote:
>
>::snipped::
>>..but where I come from, everybody in the meetings hates christians...
>> ...The reality where I live is
>> that people in the fellowship are actually rabid christian haters...
>
>Now I am curious. Then why do you use Christian ideology (12 Steps,
>etc.) as a way of life and foundation for sobriety?
Why do you think people use the 12 Steps?
I'll give you a little hint since it looks like you need one: it's
not because they don't work.
Reese
Philip Demarco
Perfect idiom. and meter. Well done.
Great form.
--
Philip Demarco
WYSIWYG.
Chris
Reuben Muns wrote:
>
> "Chris!" <mlt...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Now I am curious. Then why do you use Christian ideology (12 Steps,
> >etc.) as a way of life and foundation for sobriety?
> >
> haven't seen them in the King James or any other version of the
> Bible.
>
> Reuben
Sometimes I can't believe how some AAers deny the obvious. I don't know
whether they are completely ignorant of history, religion and their own
goup and it's origins or they simply enjoy playing a game of "I know I
am so what are you?"
Reub, AA originally used the King James version of the Bible before
replacing it with the AA bible, the Big Book. The 12 Steps are
obviously lay the foundation for a Christian way of life.
Why would you want to mislead people?
Chris!
TArthur
In article <5f84i7$7...@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com>,
on Sat, 01 Mar 1997 02:34:03 GMT,
G. Allen Perry <gap...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>Chris can enlighten
>us all about history
>of the Oxford Group
>problem it's got no bearing
>on the fellowship today
Herr Perry makes us sit through
--
For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
he...@anon.twwells.com -- for an automatically returned help message
ad...@anon.twwells.com -- for the service's administrator
ano...@anon.twwells.com -- anonymous mail to the administrator
G. Allen Perry
Odd how few ever build on this "foundation." Around here the quickest
way to get yelled at in a meeting or called down is to quote from the
Bible or mention the word jesus even in a pasing comment. Where I
live, christians are (this aint right, but it is true) discriminated
against in the meetings. I'm beginning to think you read all this in a
book Chris, cause you seem to have no concept of how the people in the
meetings really act.
They're all fucked up in the head in 12 step fellowships around here.
They are all rebellious people who can't wait to break the first rule
anybody in the program tries to set for them. They all regularly get
in arguments with their sponsors and end up getting new ones until
they finally find one who tells them what they already believe and
want to hear. They all run around and fuck each other like there is no
tomorrow and as if there are no diseases such as AIDS. They sure
aren't waiting and asking their sponsor's permission before they date.
Nobody ever puts money in the basket when it gets passed around
because they don't trust the group t spend the money the way they want
it spent. When new people need a ride to a meeting, they usually have
to call thirty or forty people before they find one who is willing to
help. Most people won't go five minutes out of their way to give a new
person a ride. Hell most people aren't even willing to talk with them
on the phone for five minutes.
All that stuff you accuse us of is based on things you have read. We
are supposed to try and be nice and help others and all that stuff,
but as far as what we actually do, we do about 10% of it. Many people
who aren't substance abusers are more dedicated to their bowling teams
than people in 12 step groups are devoted to their fellowships.
Reese
On Sat, 01 Mar 1997 13:19:10 -0800, Chris <mlt...@sprintmail.com>
wrote:
>Why would you want to mislead people?
Why would you want to mislead people by denying that the AMA
recognizes alcoholism/addiction as a disease?
Reese
Frank J. Kadel, D.O.
G. Allen Perry wrote:
>The reality where I live is
> that people in the fellowship are actually rabid christian haters.
>
Where exactly was that, again? While a number of people I have
met in NA have a tendency to avoid organized religion, I know of
none who have stood over a Christian with an upraised sword asking
the question "Allah?", or who have extracted confessions in the
manner of the Grand Inquisitors (now, didn't they call themselves...
lets see..., Oh yeah, -Christians!-), or who have bombed out the
infidels like the Shiites and the Sikhs. We might be accurately
although simplistically described as averse to religions, but in
light of what the worlds organized religions have been doing to
each other for the past two or three thousand years, referring to
oneself as a recovering Catholic can hardly be considered aggressive!
Chris
G. Allen Perry wrote:
Dude I am confused, are you Reese? You both have the same last line
about god's seed thang?
::major snippage::
> All that stuff you accuse us of is based on things you have read.
Wrong again. It is based on about 20 years of experience, membership,
research, and I worked in the field for over 10 years.
> who aren't substance abusers are more dedicated to their bowling teams
> than people in 12 step groups are devoted to their fellowships.
But they aren't mislead when they join the bowling team. Nor do they
"come to believe" that they would die if they quit.
> I want to feel what Mary felt when God spent his seed.
I don't.
Chris!
Chris
Reese wrote:
> >Why would you want to mislead people?
>
> Why would you want to mislead people by denying that the AMA
> recognizes alcoholism/addiction as a disease?
They have defined it as so with a great deal of controversy since they
have yet to prove such a thing exists. Have you read the definition?
It's pretty funny. Alot of well informed scientists and lay folks felt
the AMA lost alot of credibility after that since they couldn't prove
their definition.
Have you found any , I mean ANY medical/scientific evidence that proves
this theory yet? I would love to read any research that proves the
"disease" exists.
Chris!
Li Peng
Frank,
Oh man, if you ever came down to Lexington and quoted the Bible or
said the word jesus you would never want to come back. I've never seen
people act like such jerks in a meeting as they do in NA in Lexington
when they hear that stuff. They're sitting across the room saying
"shut up" and "take your outside issue home" real loud. Then they
corner the poor guy after the meeting and give them that phony "loving
and caring" BS about not talking about religion in the meetings. They
will sit there for hours talking about the "Great Spirit" or whatever
and how much peace and serenity it has given them, but then they will
act like a bunch of spastic children if someone says jesus. It's like
they have radar. They haven't broken out swords or started the Jihad
yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
Greg P.
ps; They seem to like it when you say you are a "recovering catholic."
G. Allen Perry
Chris <mlt...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>G. Allen Perry wrote:
>Dude I am confused, are you Reese? You both have the same last line
>about god's seed thang?
He must have quoted the end of one of my posts.
>> All that stuff you accuse us of is based on things you have read.
>Wrong again. It is based on about 20 years of experience, membership,
>research, and I worked in the field for over 10 years.
Well you must have been asleep on the job. I guarantee you that if I
left the fellowship tomorrow, no one would know the difference except
me. Nobody is intimidating me into staying here.
>> who aren't substance abusers are more dedicated to their bowling teams
>> than people in 12 step groups are devoted to their fellowships.
>But they aren't mislead when they join the bowling team. Nor do they
>"come to believe" that they would die if they quit.
Clearly you missed my point, but I will address your point. I'm not
misleading anyone into coming here. I don't tell people they have a
problem. If they ask, I tell them I don't know. All I do is offer to
help them work this program if they want to. I don't want them here if
they don't want to be here. I don't even care about the people who
want to keep using or don't want to come here because they don't think
they have a disease. It's none of my business what they do. I told the
last guy that told me he didn't have a problem any more to get on with
his life if he didn't have a problem.
>> I want to feel what Mary felt when God spent his seed.
>I don't.
Its a sig file Chris and it ain't changin.
----------------------------
Reese
>G. Allen Perry wrote:
>>The reality where I live is
>> that people in the fellowship are actually rabid christian haters.
>>
>> Greg P.
>
>Where exactly was that, again? While a number of people I have
>met in NA have a tendency to avoid organized religion, I know of
>none who have stood over a Christian with an upraised sword asking
>the question "Allah?", or who have extracted confessions in the
>manner of the Grand Inquisitors (now, didn't they call themselves...
>lets see..., Oh yeah, -Christians!-), or who have bombed out the
>infidels like the Shiites and the Sikhs. We might be accurately
>although simplistically described as averse to religions,
Yep, but we don't mind meeting in churches, do we?
>but in
>light of what the worlds organized religions have been doing to
>each other for the past two or three thousand years, referring to
>oneself as a recovering Catholic can hardly be considered aggressive!
Yep, they've messed up pretty bad, haven't they? I wonder why they
allow NA and AA to meet at their facilities? And as evil and as bad
as churches are, what are we doing meeting there?
Reese
Derek M.
: Have you found any , I mean ANY medical/scientific evidence that proves
: this theory yet? I would love to read any research that proves the
: "disease" exists.
:
: Chris!
I doubt it.
But regardless if addiction exists or not. Do you have any experience to
share in how to stay clean AND live a happy productive life?
Now that would be something to see.
Jim Norman
>They're all fucked up in the head in 12 step fellowships around here.
>They are all rebellious people who can't wait to break the first rule
>anybody in the program tries to set for them. They all regularly get
>in arguments with their sponsors and end up getting new ones until
>they finally find one who tells them what they already believe and
>want to hear. They all run around and fuck each other like there is no
>tomorrow
>snip stuff
>Nobody ever puts money in the basket when it gets passed around
>snip stuff
>Most people won't go five minutes out of their way to give a new
>person a ride. Hell most people aren't even willing to talk with them
>on the phone for five minutes.
>snip stuff
> Many people who aren't substance abusers are more dedicated to
>their bowling teams
>than people in 12 step groups are devoted to their fellowships.
>
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. It sounds
like my first AA group, that I still consider "home" but I no longer
attend.
I haven't been around AA as long as some, but in the last 11 years
I've had the chance to observe how groups go through various cycles
(both good and bad). The common thing I've observed is that when the
emphasis moves away from sobriety and toward personal agendas and
selfishness...the groups wither and in some cases fold up and die.
In another respect...this is part of the "magic of the message".
When you have real recovery and an adherance to the traditions, the
groups always seem to prosper. When people start dragging their pet
issues into the deal....you begin to see all the crap you described
in your post.
My home group (when I first came to AA) was huge. There were 4 o 5
meetings each day and always at least 50 to 100 people in attendence
for each. There were scores of people with good, long-term sobriety
and those people helped save my life.
About 6 years ago some of the things you describe began to take root
in the group and over the next two or three years, most of the "good
sobriety" checked out and moved on to other groups. Today, my "home
group" is lucky to have 10 people at a meeting. They can't pay their
bills and it depressing to even walk in the door.
The reason I'm sharing this is to make a point. My "home" group is a
dead duck, but AA is still alive and well! There have been at least 6
new groups formed out of the original group and the six new groups
still carry the message of recovery to the alcoholic who suffers. The
new six represent what AA is about...not my old "home" group.
I believe that AA as a whole will prosper as long as it carries the
recovery message. However, We need to realize that it will begin to
fall apart if personal agendas ever become the norm.
---------------------
Jim Norman
Southlake, Texas
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Sometimes the responsibility is awesome, just
knowing that millions of people are hanging on my
every word."
-The Rev Jesse Jackson
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Reese
On Sat, 01 Mar 1997 22:01:13 -0800, Chris <mlt...@sprintmail.com>
wrote:
>Reese wrote:
>
>> >Why would you want to mislead people?
>>
>> Why would you want to mislead people by denying that the AMA
>> recognizes alcoholism/addiction as a disease?
>
>They have defined it as so with a great deal of controversy since they
>have yet to prove such a thing exists. Have you read the definition?
>It's pretty funny. Alot of well informed scientists and lay folks felt
>the AMA lost alot of credibility after that since they couldn't prove
>their definition.
If the AMA has no credibility in your judgement (or lack of
judgement), then I doubt anything else would have any credibility
either.
>Have you found any , I mean ANY medical/scientific evidence that proves
>this theory yet? I would love to read any research that proves the
>"disease" exists.
I've read some of the far fetched articles you and others have
referred to. But I don't guess you know of any articles published
in refereed medical journals that claim alcoholism/addiction is not a
disease or you would have made reference to them long before now.
So, as far as the scientific evidence goes, what we have is the AMA on
one side and on the other side we have a few articles or statements
written by some crackpot psychologists.
Reese
C Toby
Chris <mlt...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
<surgically snipped with a sterile keyboard>
|
| Sometimes I can't believe how some AAers deny the obvious. I don't know
| whether they are completely ignorant of history, religion and their own
| goup and it's origins or they simply enjoy playing a game of "I know I
| am so what are you?"
|
| Reub, AA originally used the King James version of the Bible before
| replacing it with the AA bible, the Big Book. The 12 Steps are
| obviously lay the foundation for a Christian way of life.
|
| Why would you want to mislead people?
|
| Chris!
|
Now, for your information, I am *not* ignorant of my own goup. In fact, I
use it every day.
It's Loreal....because...I'm *worth* it!
....and it originated in France, so there > :ş
Carla
<don't hate me because I'm beautiful mode>
Reuben Muns
gap...@ix.netcom.com (G. Allen Perry) wrote:
>Well you must have been asleep on the job. I guarantee you that if I
>left the fellowship tomorrow, no one would know the difference except
>me.
>
Not entirely correct, I think. If I were to leave the fellowship
tomorrow, I'd get phone calls in a week or two from other members
of my home group, checking to see if I'm sick or otherwise
needing help.
(Especially since I'm the group treasurer!!)
Reuben
Dan J.
C Toby wrote:
>
> Now, for your information, I am *not* ignorant of my own goup. In fact, I
> use it every day.
> It's Loreal....because...I'm *worth* it!
> ....and it originated in France, so there > :ş
>
> Carla
> <don't hate me because I'm beautiful mode>
LOL. That was funny.
Dan
>
Frank J. Kadel, D.O.
Reese wrote:
> Yep, they've messed up pretty bad, haven't they? I wonder why they
> allow NA and AA to meet at their facilities? And as evil and as bad
> as churches are, what are we doing meeting there?
>
> Reese
My home group does not meet in a church
FrankK
Mindy
J. Mileham wrote:
>
> >chris!
> >Have you found any , I mean ANY medical/scientific evidence that proves
> >this theory yet? I would love to read any research that proves the
> >"disease" exists.
>
>
> putting all your marbles in with the folks who once thought the earth was
> flat and the center of the universe, eh? the folks who once said there
> was no way life could exist anywhere else in this galaxy, the same folks
> who gave us the nuclear bombs? this is kind of amusing, although it's
> getting a bit old.
This is so absurd I can't begin to respond.
Mindy
Reese wrote:
> Why do you think people use the 12 Steps?
>
> I'll give you a little hint since it looks like you need one: it's
> not because they don't work.
>
> Reese
Reese, you are so smart! You read the following Bill W quotes and YOU
tell us why people work the steps?
Bill Wilson, founder of AA wrote to the fellowship and newcomers in the
AA Conferance Approved Book called AA Comes of Age.
"Happily for us, we found we need no human authority...We have two
authorities which are far more effective...There is God, our Father, who
very simply says, "I am waiting for you to do my will." The other
authority is named John Barleycorn, and he says, "You had better do
God's will or I will kill you." And sometimes he does kill. So, when
the chips are down, we conform to God's will or perish. At this level
the death sentence hangs over the A.A. member, his group, and A.A. as a
whole. Therefore we have the full benefits of the murderous political
dictatorships of today but none of their liabilities. So there is
authority enough, love enough, and punishment enough, all without any
human being clutches the handles of power...FOr us it is do or die."
-Bill Wilson, pages 105-106
Often we hear "AA doesn't make anyone do anything, you can take what you
want and leave the rest..." Let's see what Bill W has to say on that
subject. In the 12 and 12 he wrote:
"First Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe in
anything. All of [A.A.'s] Twelve Steps are but suggestions." page 26
Now on page 174 of the sam book Bill goes on:
"Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our
suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own
death warrant."
In the Twelve Concepts of A.A. Bill said,
"We very well know that the penalty for extensive disobedience to [the
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions] is death for the individual." p
"So we of A.A. do obey spiritual principles, first because we must, and
ultimately because we love the kind of life such obedience brings." 12
and 12 pg 174
And then there is my personal favorite,
"Now we come to another kind of problem: the intellectually
self-sufficient man or woman." 12 and 12 pg 29
And people ask me "why do you speak critically of AA?"
Chris!
Philip Demarco
> Reese, you are so smart! You read the following Bill W quotes and YOU
> tell us why people work the steps?
I think that some of the people work the steps because for some of the
people they work.
--
Philip Demarco
WYSIWYG.
Bob
I always suspected Bill W was a closet authoritarian. Wasn't the founder
of the Oxford movement a Nazi sympathizer?
Bob
Derek M.
: >Well you must have been asleep on the job. I guarantee you that if I
You have one of those homegroups too? Makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy
inside...;}
Dan J.
Jesus Christ, who fucking cares? The pope was also a Nazi sympathizer,
as was Henry Ford. Gonna sell the car and the rosary, too?
Dan
Philip Demarco
> I always suspected Bill W was a closet authoritarian. Wasn't the founder
> of the Oxford movement a Nazi sympathizer?
> Bob
My sponsor is a Republican. That doesn't make me one.
--
Philip Demarco
WYSIWYG.
Reese
On Tue, 04 Mar 1997 10:33:54 -0800, Mindy <mlt...@sprintmail.com>
wrote:
>Reese wrote:
>
>> Why do you think people use the 12 Steps?
>>
>> I'll give you a little hint since it looks like you need one: it's
>> not because they don't work.
>>
>> Reese
>
>Reese, you are so smart! You read the following Bill W quotes and YOU
>tell us why people work the steps?
>
People work the 12 Steps because they work. You can be as critical of
AA and NA as you please, dude, but the 12 Steps work. They can work
for anybody.
Reese
Mikey
Bob wrote:
>
> I always suspected Bill W was a closet authoritarian. Wasn't the founder
> of the Oxford movement a Nazi sympathizer?
> Bob
The Oxford Group endorsed the philosophy of German National Socialism.
In 1943 they changed their minds, but it was too late and that was the
end of the Oxford Group.
Because of this and because of the demise of a pre-civil war self-help
group (Washingtonians(sp?) or something like that) that folded because
they endorsed the abolition of slavery (good idea, but not for them),
Bill wrote the traditions to protect his fellowship. It made since to
the early NA members, so they adopted those same traditions (with a few
words changed).
Mikey
--
God, grant me the serenity of Droopy D.
Chris!
Bob wrote:
>
> I always suspected Bill W was a closet authoritarian. Wasn't the founder
> of the Oxford movement a Nazi sympathizer?
> Bob
Authoritarians are most concerned with obedience and conformity. They
use coercion and exhortion as their primary means of gaining
(ideological) dominance.
Much of AAs writings reeks of this.
Chris!
Reese
On 1 Mar 1997 05:07:25 GMT, "Derek M." <der...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Because christianity has never had the corner stone on spirituality. The
>12 & 12 can be correlated with almost every religion. Religion is
>irrelevant to recovery. You will be assimilated....;}
So you admit that the principles found in the 12 Steps can be found in
the writings of "almost every religion"?
Reese
Joe
The 12 steps are not "...Christian ideology"...they have been proven
compatible with Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and many other faiths, backed up
by written confirmation from many religious leaders.
Joe
Joe
Those who are still convinced that 12 Steps and Christianity are one would
benefit from seeing the JACS website. JACS is Jewish Alcoholics, Chemicaly
Dependent and Significant others....with prominent Rabbis involved, it is
firmly rooted in 12-Steps.Joe.
markus
So, would you agree with the following thread Joe?
markus wrote:
>
> Reese wrote:
>
>
> > The 12 Steps are about God, but now there's a program for those who do
> > not want to acknowledge God: it's called Rational Recovery.
>
> Excuse me Mr. Reese, hope you don't mind me butting into your thread here, but
> your statement about RR is misleading. RR's program makes no reference to god in
> its preamble. Point blank. We in RR welcome people of all religions, we just ask
> that religion not be a point of discussion during a meeting. I have talked with
> many stoutly religious persons who chose to attend RR because they were insulted
> by the perverse religion of 12 step programs. Just because RR's foundation isn't
> based on religion doesn't mean only atheists will benifit from it.
>
> > And you think this is what they do in AA? Where do you think we got
> > the "as we understood him" phrase from?
> >
> > Reese
>
> As I understand "as we understood him" is to mean anyone from any religion can
> replace the word god with their meaning of the word god, ex; messiah, allah, etc..
> Since the emphasis is on ...anyone from any religion, then yes, I too am saying
> the steps were created strictly for a person of religion. (notice how I left the
> word 'agree' out of this? you can thank me later..dude. :-)
>
> -Markus
>
> _____________________
>
> Its a fact: The very first bomb dropped by the Allies on Berlin during World War
> II killed the only elephant in the Berlin Zoo.
Grace
> Authoritarians are most concerned with obedience and conformity. They
> use coercion and exhortion as their primary means of gaining
> (ideological) dominance.
>
> Much of AAs writings reeks of this.
>
> Chris!
Chris,
Could you give some specific examples? I don't think of Bill Wilson as
being particularly authoritarian or coercive in his writings; on the
contrary, I was attracted to his writings because, despite the cultural
context in which he lived, I thought that he attempted to avoid
proselytyzing. Look at his writings on sex in the BB. He have taken on
the Ted W. stance and denounced fornicators and homosexuals. Instead he
left it up to each person to follow his or her own conscience.
Believe me, I'm not a blind follower of the BB; there is a lot in it that
I find sexist and racist. I just don't find it (or other AA writings) to
be demanding "obedience or conformity". If it did that, I wouldn't have
stuck around!
Is there stuff between the lines that I'm missing?
Grace
portland, OR
Robert F. Hale
admission of faults (confession, step 5), asking for forgiveness (step
7) and restitution (step 9) are found in the major religions that I am
familiar with.
Robert F. Hale
Even newcomers should know better. How could atheist get sober if you
had to be a christian to get sober. that's silly. We are talking about a
disease. Lots of christians die from lots of diseases.
Ace Renegade
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>In article <331F00...@sprintmail.com>, mlt...@sprintmail.com wrote:
>
>> Authoritarians are most concerned with obedience and conformity. They
>> use coercion and exhortion as their primary means of gaining
>> (ideological) dominance.
>> Much of AAs writings reeks of this.
"Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism, hence, we
may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership depend on
money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for the
purpose of sobriety may call themselves and AA group, provided that, as a
group, they have no outside affiliation."
Chris reeks of dishonesty and missinformation...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.1
iQCVAwUBMyMtiVZWwu/DCZYlAQHwLgP9H1xOS/yKSxuwV+BMAcNFRxA3Rotyz3v1
TILGYnJhiFoW8WJ3exYG0O70liAVZ/vE/ftcE5/3+kOLwrir93EeplYKV6GCpeQ7
rNnN/XTrfmUt5hv1bX3JjAB9mr89qy1xJS9gIHghh2KLn5DpfTAyB6Zj6T5XaqWT
3GZmCwyJ+xA=
=QTQQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
US Out Of Cyberspace!!! Join EFF Today!!! *email <in...@eff.org>*
"When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!" JPB
PGP fingerprint = B4 C5 9C D4 FD 51 BA 06 A2 86 BE C3 CC CA F0 B8
Chris!
Grace wrote:
>
::snipped::
> Could you give some specific examples? I don't think of Bill Wilson as
> being particularly authoritarian or coercive in his writings; o
You know, I *have* given numerous examples and I am always accused of
taking things out of context. Why don't you simply get your BB and
other AA approved literature and go through it with a highlighter. Mark
each sentence that says or implies "you must do X or else." Or the
kinder genttler approach, "*we* found that if we didn't do X we would
cease to exist." X is always working the program or following some
"universal spiritual truth" which Bill always seemed to have an uncanny
grasp of.
Highlight any sentence that uses the terms, "must, have to, obediance,
submit, submission," etc. And decide for yourself. Over and over Bill
(AA) writes of the necessity of obediance, and submission to god and the
AA way (12 Steps, 12 Traditions).
I am tired of reading the BB topeople, especially those who have never
read it here.
I have posted several examples from Bill's writings that said this.
> Believe me, I'm not a blind follower of the BB; there is a lot in it that
> I find sexist and racist.
That's great how you are able to see through alot of the AA dogma.
> I just don't find it (or other AA writings) to
> be demanding "obedience or conformity".
Read the AA literature.
> If it did that, I wouldn't have
> stuck around!
Most AAers would probably agree with you, but they overlook or deny the
authoritarian nature of AA in order to justify their membership.
> Is there stuff between the lines that I'm missing?
Yes, but don't take my word for it. Read the AA literature and use the
old highlighter.
Thanks for the note, Grace
Chris!
Lech K. Lesiak
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Chris! wrote:
> Authoritarians are most concerned with obedience and conformity. They
> use coercion and exhortion as their primary means of gaining
> (ideological) dominance.
>
> Much of AAs writings reeks of this.
IMHO, little of AA's writing reeks of this. The stuff, as I read it,
seems to be over backwards so as not to appear dogmatic. Many meetings,
OTOH, do reek of it.
Cheers,
Lech
Steve N.
Chris! wrote:
> >I want to feel how Lois felt when Bill spent his seeds.
> > Authoritarians are most concerned with obedience and conformity.
On the one hand, Chris! tells us he craves the experience of Bill's
seed, then in another breath, he speaks of Bill as requiring strict
obedience. Chris!, can you spell "B&D"?
There are twelve step programs for strange fetishes too! Visit one
soon!
Steve
--
Tote Water, Split Wood
advance bionics
Just my experience (plus what I've been told), many/most alcoholics (I)
need discipline. I fought against it my whole life -still do. I hate
being told what to do or when to do it. There's a little something
regarding lives being run on self-will in the Big Book. :) I don't know
if anyone else can identify with that.
Obedience and conformity is saving my ass today. It's part of becoming
more humble. I've had a (very lucky) lifetime of disobedience and
non-conformity. It quit working.
Dave
5.30.95
Sean
Joe wrote:
Interestingly enough, this is just not true. For instance, some catholic
priests have a problem with AA's taking a step five that is not a
sanctioned confessional done with a priest.
And of course there is the whole "what the big bopok says vs. what most
groups actualy do" thing. I know many Jews who have dropped out of AA
because many group members told them that they HAD TO pray on their
knees. So much for "God as we understood him".
The whole higher power thing is TOTALLY incompatible with Buddhism,
which teaches that there is no ultimate authority outside of ones self.
(in other words, as far as spiritual matters go, YOU YOURSELF are the
highest power there is). I know of a Buddhist who dropped out of AA
because the group was pressuring him to pray, which his seefu (I think
the word is chinese for teacher - in this case a soert of 'guru')
forbad him to do, since his lineage of Buddhism teaches that looking
for spiritual help outside oneself to much will hamper spirtitual
developement!
Sean
Sean
Robert F. Hale wrote:
How can athiests get sober if they must believe in a spiritual higher
power (aka: God)?
I got fed up and left AA after about the 1000th ignoarnt grouper
insisted that I was destined for yet another relapse unless I started
getting humble and started praying...
Amazingly enough, after 5+ years in and out of the rooms with a few
relapses, I found that only AFTER I left AA was I able to remain sober.
Furthermore, contrary to public opinion, WSO and GSO propaganda, and
conventional wisdom, addiction is NOT A DISEASE, is rarely progressive
(with the possible exception of some "hard drugs"), and is usualy
NOT terminal. I will post a list of the studies that back my claims up
here later, since I don't have my refernces here now.
Sean
advance bionics
Grace wrote:
>
> Is there stuff between the lines that I'm missing?
Yes, Grace. Tons! LOL!=8-D
Dave
5.30.95
Chris!
advance bionics wrote:
::snipped::
> Obedience and conformity is saving my ass today. It's part of becoming
> more humble. I've had a (very lucky) lifetime of disobedience and
> non-conformity. It quit working.
Thank you for telling the truth.
Chris!
Sean
Philip Demarco wrote:
>
> I think that some of the people work the steps because for some of the
> people they work.
Ya. And for some people Narcanon (the addiction recovery program of the
Church of Scientology) works. Are these people any less misguided simply
because there program seems to work?
Sean
Sean
Bob wrote:
>
> I always suspected Bill W was a closet authoritarian. Wasn't the founder
> of the Oxford movement a Nazi sympathizer?
> Bob
Yes, Frank Buchanan was a Nazi symapthiser. He was once quoted as
saying:
"I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of
defense againt the anti-christ of Communism..."
Sean
Sean
Ace Renegade wrote:
> "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism, hence, we
> may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership depend on
> money or conformity.
If only most AA groups actually practised what the Big Book preaches....
This may be what the big book says AA should be, but it sure as hell
ain't what it is in reality!
Sean
Sean
advance bionics wrote:
> I don't know if anyone else can identify with that.
> more humble. I've had a (very lucky) lifetime of disobedience and
> non-conformity. It quit working.
Hmmm. I dunno bout that. For me, I was only able to quit drinking
alcoholcally and taking every imaginable substance to excess only AFTER
I gave up trying to be obediant and trying to conform. Different strokes
for different folks, I guess.
Sean
Sean
Reese wrote:
> People work the 12 Steps because they work. You can be as critical of
> AA and NA as you please, dude, but the 12 Steps work. They can work
> for anybody.
There is a big difference between "can" and "will". Anyone can win the
lotto, too. Does that mean EVERYONE will? or even most? Nope.
Scientology will keep you from drinking as well. You wanna join them?
Sean
Sean
rover wrote:
> What's your point?
>
> Do you read it to rip it apart? Because you can do that and I won't
> lose any sleep. Or do you read it because you're ripped apart?
>
> rover
Maybe he reads it to be able to point out to the misguided where what it
says is fallacy.....
Maybe some of us like to look at things critically before jumping in.
Sean
"a life without self will is not worth living"
advance bionics
Sean wrote:
>
> Scientology will keep you from drinking as well. You wanna join them?
>
Aha! I see the difference now. You're only interested in "not drinking"
and that's not what A.A.'s about. It's about learning to live life on
life's terms, that is, to be comfortable in my own skin. Believe me, if
all I got out of A.A. was "not drinking" I'd go out and start drinking
again. Drinking wasn't my problem. Things got shitty when I didn't
drink. Now, if that doesn't register to you, either you're not alcoholic
like I am, or you ain't tired of pulling your own pud!
Dave
5.30.95
Reuben Muns
Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>This may be what the big book says AA should be, but it sure as hell
>ain't what it is in reality!
>
Are you bullshitting from the vantage point of having been to
enough AA meetings to know this from experience? Or are you just
bullshitting ad lib?
Reuben
Chris!
Derek M. wrote:
::ALL SNIPPED::
Derek, you see how easy it is to "cross post" on a subject that isn't
related to another newsgroup? You just did. I admit I have done the same
thing often, replied without realizing all the groups that will get the
post. You remind me of it often. I a try to cut off the groups that
aren't related when I post now or when I start a new thread I will
duoble check that it relates to whichever group.
I suggest you do the same especially if you continue to holler at me
about it. I am not cutting off any groups concerning this post because
It will illustrate how this happens and how it can be changed.
Your pal,
chris!
Derek M.
: Hmmm. I dunno bout that. For me, I was only able to quit drinking
: alcoholcally and taking every imaginable substance to excess only AFTER
: I gave up trying to be obediant and trying to conform. Different strokes
: for different folks, I guess.
:
: Sean
Wait a minute. Am I reading this right? I get from the above that you
still drink and use other drugs. Are you saying that you are a controlled
user? Or that you have your using under control? granted there are
millions of people who can have a couple drinks and they are not addicts.
But in "my" experience moderation management does not work for "this"
addict.
Total abstinence works best for me.
p.s. I hope you have flame proof suit, you know what's gonna happen next...
--
"It is better to be wrong for the right reasons than to be right for the
wrong reasons."
Derek M.
Derek M.
I apologize for not checking the header on this cross posted thread.
--
"It is better to be wrong for the right reasons than to be right for the
wrong reasons."
Derek M.
Derek M. <der...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<01bc2daf$500590c0$638979a8@default>...
: : Hmmm. I dunno bout that. For me, I was only able to quit drinking
:
Derek M.
This has nothing to with NA.
--
"It is better to be wrong for the right reasons than to be right for the
wrong reasons."
Derek M.
Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote in article
<332498...@mail.idt.net>...
:
Derek M.
:
: There is a big difference between "can" and "will". Anyone can win the
: lotto, too. Does that mean EVERYONE will? or even most? Nope.
: Scientology will keep you from drinking as well. You wanna join them?
:
: Sean
:
No, I have no desire to join the group. But everyone else is free to
choose to do so as I am free to choose NA.
What's your point?
Derek M.
Sean,
Your saying that everyone else is misguided is just a round about way of
saying that your way is the only way and everyone else is wrong. Who's
posting close-minded stuff?
And who is the one "preaching one way is the only way?"
--
"It is better to be wrong for the right reasons than to be right for the
wrong reasons."
Derek M.
Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote in article
<33249C...@mail.idt.net>...
:
Reese
Are people in NA any less clean because the Steps work?
Reese
Reese
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:41:13 -0500, Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>Maybe some of us like to look at things critically before jumping in.
You know, maybe some of us ain't too picky about the life boat we jump
on.
Reese
Reese
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:44:46 -0500, Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>Reese wrote:
>
>> People work the 12 Steps because they work. You can be as critical of
>> AA and NA as you please, dude, but the 12 Steps work. They can work
>> for anybody.
>
>There is a big difference between "can" and "will". Anyone can win the
>lotto, too. Does that mean EVERYONE will? or even most? Nope.
This is a game everybody can win. At least everybody who wants it.
>Scientology will keep you from drinking as well. You wanna join them?
No, I'll stick with NA.
Reese
Derek M.
Making an honest mistake is one thing. Intentionally doing it is another.
It does not matter if the topic appears to "relate" it is not appropriate
to cross messages at any time.
Come back to reality guy.
--
"It is better to be wrong for the right reasons than to be right for the
wrong reasons."
Derek M.
Chris! <mlt...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
<33250F...@sprintmail.com>...
:
Lech K. Lesiak
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Sean wrote:
> Ace Renegade wrote:
>
> > "Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism, hence, we
> > may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership depend on
> > money or conformity.
>
> If only most AA groups actually practised what the Big Book preaches....
>
> This may be what the big book says AA should be, but it sure as hell
> ain't what it is in reality!
Actually, that's pretty much the way it works, in my experience. I'm
certainly no 'Billy', and have received my share of icy stares for
contradicting AA dogma, but no one has ever told me that I didn't belong,
or that I shouldn't come to meetings - the latter only happened in RR.
I'm beginning to wonder if maybe some of those who dump on AA for
relatively minor faults are just social misfits who can't get along with
anyone. That would certainly explain the unreasonable hostility.
Cheers,
Lech
Lech K. Lesiak
On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, advance bionics wrote:
> Aha! I see the difference now. You're only interested in "not drinking"
> and that's not what A.A.'s about. It's about learning to live life on
> life's terms, that is, to be comfortable in my own skin. Believe me, if
Yup, that's what AA is all about for me - not drinking. I had a pretty
good idea of how to live life before I got to AA, and if I needed further
lessons AA is one of the last places I would look to for advice. I don't
know if Scientology, Mormonism, or any other belief system could have
helped me to not drink, but AA sure did - and it's a lot more tolerant of
my iconoclasm than most. Much less expensive as well.
Cheers,
Lech
daniel
In article <3324B4...@ni.net>, advance bionics <abu...@ni.net> wrote:
>Sean wrote:
>
>>
>> Scientology will keep you from drinking as well. You wanna join them?
>>
>
>
>Aha! I see the difference now. You're only interested in "not drinking"
>and that's not what A.A.'s about. It's about learning to live life on
>life's terms, that is, to be comfortable in my own skin. Believe me, if
>all I got out of A.A. was "not drinking" I'd go out and start drinking
>again. Drinking wasn't my problem. Things got shitty when I didn't
>drink. Now, if that doesn't register to you, either you're not alcoholic
>like I am, or you ain't tired of pulling your own pud!
>
>Dave
>5.30.95
You got that right, Mojamba!
daniel
daniel
Twe...@mail.idt.net wrote:
>"a life without self will is not worth living"
>Sean
I wonder if you're aware that 12 step work is not interested in
getting rid of self will (as if we could). It's actually about being
aware of what you put your will behind.
What do you put your will behind, Sean?
daniel
c...@aol.com
>Thank you for telling the truth.
Why is it that you only say things like that in reference to people
who agree with you?
Why is it that when someone does *not* agree with you, instead
of accepting that different people have different ideas, and different
ways of working a program (or not) etc., etc....... the implication by
you is that they're LYING???
Just an observation...
Cheryl
Sean
Derek M. wrote:
>
> Making an honest mistake is one thing. Intentionally doing it is another.
> It does not matter if the topic appears to "relate" it is not appropriate
> to cross messages at any time.
If it is never appropriate, then why is it a built in function in almost
all newsreaders?
Sean
Sean
Hmmm. Then you might get into trouble If i'm on a sinking ship, I want
to be DAMNsure that the lifeboat I jump into is not worse off than the
sinking ship i'm already on (not that the 12 steps are sinking... they
sure as hell works for a lot of folks...I just wonder at what price?)
Sean
advance bionics wrote:
> Aha! I see the difference now. You're only interested in "not drinking"
> and that's not what A.A.'s about. It's about learning to live life on
> life's terms, that is, to be comfortable in my own skin. Believe me, if
> all I got out of A.A. was "not drinking" I'd go out and start drinking
> again. Drinking wasn't my problem. Things got shitty when I didn't
> drink. Now, if that doesn't register to you, either you're not alcoholic
> like I am, or you ain't tired of pulling your own pud!
>
> Dave
> 5.30.95
OK, yes. I agree. There is more to it than not drinking. For ME, my life
got shittier when I tried to conform it to AA's twelve steps and
spirituality. We each have different experiences.
Sean
Sean
Derek M. wrote:
>
> Sean,
> Your saying that everyone else is misguided is just a round about way of
> saying that your way is the only way and everyone else is wrong. Who's
> posting close-minded stuff?
>
> And who is the one "preaching one way is the only way?"
I am not saying my way is the only way! Most of you out there are living
proof that my way is not the only way! I am syaing that the people who
say their way is are misguided.
Sean
Sean
Derek M. wrote:
> No, I have no desire to join the group. But everyone else is free to
> choose to do so as I am free to choose NA.
>
> What's your point?
My point is just because something works, it is not neccessarily the
best solution. Sure they don't drink, but I think that Scientologist are
wasting their lives. I don't think that strongly of 12 step groups, but
I do think that there is a better way for some of us.
Sean
Sean
No, my point is that Narcanon people are just as "clean" as NA people. I
assumed that we would all be in agreement that a member of Scientology
is misguided. In my opinion, the 12 steps are also misguided (ESPECIALLY
3!), maybe just not to the same extreme.
It is about more than not drinking, using, or whatever. It is about
quality of life, which for me, under the constraints of 12 step
programs, frankly sucked.
Sean
Sean
Reese wrote:
>
> This is a game everybody can win. At least everybody who wants it.
>
> Reese
OK, this is the type of statement that I have been refering to. IT IS
NOT a game that everybody can win. I myself am living proof of this. I
did want it. I tried. I was even more miserable from it.
IT DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE!!!!!
So, all of you out there saying that no-one is saying 12 steps work for
everyone, here is at least one example!
Sean
Reuben Muns wrote:
>
> Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>
> >This may be what the big book says AA should be, but it sure as hell
> >ain't what it is in reality!
> >
> enough AA meetings to know this from experience? Or are you just
> bullshitting ad lib?
>
> Reuben
I'm not bullshitting at all. I have been scores of different groups over
a 10 yr period (*although all in the same geographic area). This is what
my experience has shown me. I am far from being alone in this
experience. Others have noticed the same thing.
Sean
Dan J.
Sean wrote:
> Hmmm. Then you might get into trouble If i'm on a sinking ship, I want
> to be DAMNsure that the lifeboat I jump into is not worse off than the
> sinking ship i'm already on (not that the 12 steps are sinking... they
> sure as hell works for a lot of folks...I just wonder at what price?)
Let's see, it cost me a lifetime of cynicism, dishonesty, angst, agony,
misery, familial disharmony, fear, self-loathing, and a dollar a meeting
(when I have it).
Oh, yeah, and I had to forgo the early death.
Just For Today,
Dan
Chris!
Reese wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:48:01 -0500, Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>
> >It is about more than not drinking, using, or whatever. It is about
> >quality of life, which for me, under the constraints of 12 step
> >programs, frankly sucked.
>
> that. But for me the 12 Steps are hardly constraints.
>
> Reese
I think the hardest thing for AAers to understand is that one man's
freedom is another's straight jacket.
Chris!
Chris!
GO SEAN!
Grace
In article <33261f45...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, xy...@ix.netcom.com
(Reese) wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:35:30 -0500, Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
Is this the Twilight Zone??
I just got home from a long day of school and jobhunting - hungry, lonely,
and tired (not so angry). So I get into alt, recovery.aa. and find 200
posts, about half of which are the same threads with different names. And
they are all about how AA is an authoritarian, Nazi loving cult of
jackbooted brain dead geeks whose only joy in life is to ostracize Chris!,
Sean, and Ken.
Well, honestly, if you guys spout off the same trash you are talking here,
is it any wonder no one in meetings would talk to you? Why don't you
boys get a copy of Dale Carnegie's "How to Make Friends and Influence
People". You're giving me a case of PMS that won't quit!
Love,
Grace
--
Wherever you go there you are.
Reese
Reese
On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:35:30 -0500, Sean <Twe...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>Hmmm. Then you might get into trouble If i'm on a sinking ship, I want
>to be DAMNsure that the lifeboat I jump into is not worse off than the
>sinking ship i'm already on (not that the 12 steps are sinking... they
>sure as hell works for a lot of folks...I just wonder at what price?)
The only price for me was giving up a lot of misery. I'm glad to pay
that price.
Reese
daniel
AA has no monopoly on spirituallity or sobriety. What does woek for
you? I'd be interested in knowing.
daniel
George Cathcart
Sean told us:
> OK, yes. I agree. There is more to it than not drinking. For ME, my life
> got shittier when I tried to conform it to AA's twelve steps and
> spirituality. We each have different experiences.
>
> Sean
"Some of us exclaimed, 'What an order! I can't go through with it...'"
--
George Cathcart
Phoenix, AZ
Writer
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9643
daniel
In article <33264...@sprintmail.com>, mlt...@sprintmail.com wrote:
>I think the hardest thing for AAers to understand is that one man's
>freedom is another's straight jacket.
>
>Chris!
Yesterday, a friend of mine was blaming me for something i was
not responsible for, when suddenly in a heated moment she called me John.
Her ex-boyfriend is John. It was an embarrassing moment for her and an
enlightening one for me.
At any rate, it's clear to me that you have lumped me into some
general mish mash that isn't accurate. If i could, i would untie your
straight jacket, even at the cost of my AA beliefs.
daniel
Libby H.
Grace <gr...@europa.com> wrote...
> Well, honestly, if you guys spout off the same trash you are talking
here,
> is it any wonder no one in meetings would talk to you? Why don't you
> boys get a copy of Dale Carnegie's "How to Make Friends and Influence
> People". You're giving me a case of PMS that won't quit!
with
a much more comprehensive understanding of manipulation and dishonesty.
Imagine my surprise when the people at AA didn't flock to me like sheep...
*L*
For the PMS, I've found a nice stiff cup of raspberry tea works wonders...
> Love,
> Grace
Sure do...love it a lot!
--
With a light heart and open mind...
Libby (2/15/89)
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~lhedlger/personal.html
Sean
Sorry, *I* did not mean to lump anyone into any group. I flamed a lot of
people when I jumped in here without realy stopping to take the time to
see whhat everyones ideas are. I'm getting my bearings now, and
hopefully getting to know through observation something about the
individual personalites behind the posts.
I do still tend to lump the behavior of individual groups together. To
me, if they all claim to be AA, then AA is not only what the Big Book
says, but what the majority of the groups actually do. I have a very
limited experience geographically speaking, but in my area most groups
tend to have way to many overly vocal members who preach their own
experience as gospel truth, and who can be down right snotty and
condescending to any one who does not see things their way (kinda like
my posts looked 2 days ago...) ;)
Sean
Sean