Questions for Ken Ragge about his book.
Topher
I was reading Chapter 3: The Disease Theory. On page 34, second
paragraph, you wrote, "Rush's ideas were picked up by the growing
Temperance Movement." Could you elaborate which Temperance Movement
you're meaning? Are you speaking of the Washingtonians? Just curious
because it seems you skipped over the American Temperance Movement.
They served as a model for the Washingtonians, just curious as to why
there is no mention of them?
The very next paragraph, you wrote:
"Of great significance is that, apparently, through the centuries of
colonial America, no one ever reported loss of control until one
person did so in 1795. Prior to that date, when people drank too much,
it was because they wanted to."
Where did you get that information from, as I noticed there was no
citation?
I understand you wrote your book more than almost 17 years ago, no
rush in answering.
Thanks for taking your time.
Topher
Ken
In saying "Temperance Movement" I was referring to "all" of it in
general From my perspective, the Temperance Movement itself was not so
important as the social change and social breakdown that came with the
Industrial Revolution which led to the problems that various
organizations through the 1800s and 1900s set out to solve in their
sometime related and sometime different ways. It spanned from Benjamin
Rush arguing that alcoholism was a disease characterized by "loss of
control" and required abstention from distilled spirits all the way to
modern-day 12-Step treatment centers that believe that Binaca or Rum
Cake can be a "trigger" for a binge with a switch to alcohol being
capable of causing disease in anyone to "only certain people" can
"become alcoholics." But going into detail on the Temperance Movement
would have been another topic and another book or several volumes even,
something which I never wanted to do. It would have diverted me from
writing about A.A. and its effects on its members and members of the
culture at large. So yes, I suppose one could say I "skipped over" the
Temperance Movement. But since the book isn't on the Temperance
Movement, I'll let someone else write it. :-) But then I don't believe
that they were very important to the development of A.A. other than
"Let's not do that" and setting the general background for tying
alcohol to disease and disease to spiritual disease and the conversion
process. The basics of the conversion process and the bulk of the
"program" came from Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group.
I probably got the reference on no one ever losing control in Colonial
America in either Stanton Peele's "The Meaning of Addiction" or his
"Diseasing of America" but it was a long time ago so I'm not sure My
original editors thought I went overboard with citations of sources and
rightfully so. I suppose I got rid of a few I shouldn't have but I so
rarely get asked for one that I don't have that I probably did ok.
In the same vein as "loss of control" and cultural attitudes, there is
an excerpt of an old program from well before everyone "got educated"
about alcoholism by A.A. and the NCA/NCADD that I managed to hunt down
after hearing late at night years ago. The link is at the bottom of an
introduction titled, "A Blast from the Past."
http://www.morerevealed.com/audio/radio.html
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/
Topher
This is rather neat that I get to speak to an author of a book online.
Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it and think it's
awesome.
Ken, may, I ask what type of degree you have? If that is okay? Your
book doesn't state what type of degree you have or what College/
University you graduated from. Many books I've read gives a background
on the author. Your book does not have that. I could be missing some
parts of your book but I am not sure. I got an used copy off of
amazon. They are expensive, I must say that.
I apologize for not responding faster. I'm slow on the internet. My
responses will be scattered or interspersed within your response, I
hope that is ok. I hope I do it right so it is coherent. I'll just
put a bunch of spaces in between lines just in case I don't do it
right :-).
> Topher,
>
> In saying "Temperance Movement" I was referring to "all" of it in
> general From my perspective, the Temperance Movement itself was not so
> important as the social change and social breakdown that came with the
> Industrial Revolution which led to the problems that various
> organizations through the 1800s and 1900s set out to solve in their
> sometime related and sometime different ways.
What dates/years are you using for the Industrial Revolution? You seem
to imply all of the 1800's and 1900's was when the Industrial
Revolution occurred. Many in the USA consider the Industrial
Revolution occurred in latter part of the 1800's and early 1900's.
Many disagree and believe the Industrial Revolution occurred earlier
in the1800's, around 1860-70's. Depends on who you ask. Although, in
the United Kingdom the Industrial Revolution began at a different time
than in the USA. Either way, it's unclear which time frame you are
meaning.
I see from your perspective, you believe that the Temperance Movement
were not that important for social change within the USA, correct?
Which Temperance Movement do you mean? Or do you mean all of the
Temperance Movements. I'm just interested in which particular
Temperance Movement mean or if you mean all of the Temperance
Movements?
One of the Temperance Movements were abolitionists and believed in
women's rights.
There was more than one temperance movement and beliefs.
>It spanned from Benjamin
> Rush arguing that alcoholism was a disease characterized by "loss of
> control" and required abstention from distilled spirits all the way to
> modern-day 12-Step treatment centers that believe that Binaca or Rum
> Cake can be a "trigger" for a binge with a switch to alcohol being
> capable of causing disease in anyone to "only certain people" can
> "become alcoholics."
What your wrote above doesn't make any sense. It does not follow, with
what you wrote as a whole.
>But going into detail on the Temperance Movement
> would have been another topic and another book or several volumes even,
> something which I never wanted to do. It would have diverted me from
> writing about A.A. and its effects on its members and members of the
> culture at large. So yes, I suppose one could say I "skipped over" the
> Temperance Movement. But since the book isn't on the Temperance
> Movement, I'll let someone else write it. :-)
That is true, your book is not about the "Temperance Movement" or the
"Oxford Group". The "Temperance Movements" was one of the precursors
to the Oxford Group. One of the "Temperance Movements" even had a book
that one was to follow or else. Similar to AA's book. I thought it
would of been interesting if you explored the Temperance Movement
topic a little more deeply.
> But then I don't believe
> that they were very important to the development of A.A. other than
> "Let's not do that" and setting the general background for tying
> alcohol to disease and disease to spiritual disease and the conversion
> process. The basics of the conversion process and the bulk of the
> "program" came from Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group.
All the Temperance Movements were important before and as guidance for
the Oxford Group/AA creation. They both mimic areas of all the
Temperance Movements.
> I probably got the reference on no one ever losing control in Colonial
> America in either Stanton Peele's "The Meaning of Addiction" or his
> "Diseasing of America" but it was a long time ago so I'm not sure My
> original editors thought I went overboard with citations of sources and
> rightfully so. I suppose I got rid of a few I shouldn't have but I so
> rarely get asked for one that I don't have that I probably did ok.
It's safe to say, that, your statement in your book about no one ever
claiming to lose control before 1790 something is inaccurate?
Why did they think you went overboard on citations? That seems weird
to me. You would think they would want you to keep them in there. If
your book is meant as a self help type of book, I can understand.
Those self help book, like, the big book never cite anything. The
books just make claims that are unfounded. But if it was meant to be
more informative on AA and more, then I would think you and editors
would of agreed to leave citations in.
> In the same vein as "loss of control" and cultural attitudes, there is
> an excerpt of an old program from well before everyone "got educated"
> about alcoholism by A.A. and the NCA/NCADD that I managed to hunt down
> after hearing late at night years ago. The link is at the bottom of an
> introduction titled, "A Blast from the Past." http://www.morerevealed.com/audio/radio.html
>
> Ken Raggehttp://www.morerevealed.com/
Thank you for the link. It does not seem to work, my browser (firefox)
says I need a plugin. I install the plugin my browser claims to need
but it is not working at this moment. I tried both the mp3 and aif
link. I use a linux distro and believed I had all the important codecs
to play mp3's, not sure what type of file an .aif is? Perhaps it is
just firefox or I need to do something to my OS.
My apologizes for coming of as confrontational or rude when responding
to you. I did have another question for you but that will have to wait
until next time.
Thank you for your time.
Topher
Tex
<badb...@hushmail.com> wrote:
>Ken, may, I ask what type of degree you have? If that is okay? Your
>book doesn't state what type of degree you have or what College/
>University you graduated from. Many books I've read gives a background
>on the author. Your book does not have that.
Bad -bad questions! These questions only tip your hand as to being yet
another one who wishes to discredit or attack Ken. It's the message
that counts and not the messenger.
The book is a 'public service' book...much like the Surgeon General's
Warnings on the side of a pack of cigarettes.
Bob
>
> The "Temperance Movements" was one of the precursors to the Oxford
> Group.
Where on earth did you get that crazy notion? Citation please
One of the "Temperance Movements" even had a book
> that one was to follow or else. Similar to AA's book.
Seems obvious you haven't read AA's book
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_20.htm
"Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely
if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone.
Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit
badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may
cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently
strong reason - ill health, falling in love, change of environment,
or the warning of a doctor - becomes operative, this man can also
stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome
and may even need medical attention."
him.http://tinyurl.com/Hats-off
If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the
right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to
him.http://tinyurl.com/Hats-off
>
>
> All the Temperance Movements were important before and as guidance
> for the Oxford Group/AA creation. They both mimic areas of all
> the Temperance Movements.
Citations please
>
> Why did they think you went overboard on citations? That seems
> weird to me.
Really?
>
> Thank you for the link. It does not seem to work, my browser
> (firefox) says I need a plugin. I install the plugin my browser
> claims to need but it is not working at this moment. I tried both
> the mp3 and aif link. I use a linux distro and believed I had all
> the important codecs to play mp3's, not sure what type of file an
> .aif is? Perhaps it is just firefox or I need to do something to
> my OS.
I'm using a linux box, which with the xine plugin does play .aif
audio files, but not the file on Ken's site. Only other format I saw
on his link was .wav which although a bandwidth hog with dialup
connections, most any operating system should handle were the file
downloadable. Maybe for ken thats akin to confession. ;-)
It was fun for a moment listening to Ken squirming around
http://tinyurl.com/Within-us without confessing, but Kens makes no
secret of his horror at mere mention of confession
--
Bob
Calling alcoholism 'a disease' is
the politically correct substitute for 'a self induced insanity.'
Ken
Comment interspersed below.
Topher wrote:
> Hi Ken,
>
> This is rather neat that I get to speak to an author of a book online.
> Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it and think it's
> awesome.
>
> Ken, may, I ask what type of degree you have? If that is okay? Your
> book doesn't state what type of degree you have or what College/
> University you graduated from. Many books I've read gives a background
> on the author. Your book does not have that. I could be missing some
> parts of your book but I am not sure. I got an used copy off of
> amazon. They are expensive, I must say that.
>
If the book was expensive, you paid far too much, that is of course, if
you got it in the U.S.
One reason why I didn't put any background about me in the book was
because I wanted to keep the attention focused on the material, not on
me. As far as eduction, I have far, far more education than Abraham
Lincoln and Jesus and a few other noted individuals. I can read, write
and research.
The Temperance Movement was important re social change in the U.S.
However, it really had nothing to do with A.A. Frank Buchman, who was
Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob's spiritual leader in 1936 had for more to do
with anything under the rubric of sin than simple temperance. The
techniques that Wilson and Dr. Bob learned from Frank B. and the Oxford
Group had much more to do with what Buchman learned from wheedling
confessions of masturbation from young men. It was Frank B's
"everything is a sin" (including women wearing makeup) and his idea that
one could and should thinking God's thoughts rather than their own that
were fundamental to shaping the Step groups.
> One of the Temperance Movements were abolitionists and believed in
> women's rights.
>
Yes, there is more than one type of fish in the sea.
> There was more than one temperance movement and beliefs.
>
Maybe you should write a book on it. :-)
>
>> It spanned from Benjamin
>> Rush arguing that alcoholism was a disease characterized by "loss of
>> control" and required abstention from distilled spirits all the way to
>> modern-day 12-Step treatment centers that believe that Binaca or Rum
>> Cake can be a "trigger" for a binge with a switch to alcohol being
>> capable of causing disease in anyone to "only certain people" can
>> "become alcoholics."
>>
>
> What your wrote above doesn't make any sense. It does not follow, with
> what you wrote as a whole.
>
How so? I thought you were more concerned with what I didn't write anyway.
>
>> But going into detail on the Temperance Movement
>> would have been another topic and another book or several volumes even,
>> something which I never wanted to do. It would have diverted me from
>> writing about A.A. and its effects on its members and members of the
>> culture at large. So yes, I suppose one could say I "skipped over" the
>> Temperance Movement. But since the book isn't on the Temperance
>> Movement, I'll let someone else write it. :-)
>>
>
> That is true, your book is not about the "Temperance Movement" or the
> "Oxford Group". The "Temperance Movements" was one of the precursors
> to the Oxford Group. One of the "Temperance Movements" even had a book
> that one was to follow or else. Similar to AA's book. I thought it
> would of been interesting if you explored the Temperance Movement
> topic a little more deeply.
>
A.A's Big Book was an Oxford Group book. It was written when Bill W.
Dr. Bob and "the first 100" were all members of the Oxford Group. They
were the Oxford Group's "Alcoholic Squad." Oxford Group believed in
"like working with like". It was better for winning converts.
>
>> But then I don't believe
>> that they were very important to the development of A.A. other than
>> "Let's not do that" and setting the general background for tying
>> alcohol to disease and disease to spiritual disease and the conversion
>> process. The basics of the conversion process and the bulk of the
>> "program" came from Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group.
>>
>
>
> All the Temperance Movements were important before and as guidance for
> the Oxford Group/AA creation. They both mimic areas of all the
> Temperance Movements.
>
And how so?
>
>
>> I probably got the reference on no one ever losing control in Colonial
>> America in either Stanton Peele's "The Meaning of Addiction" or his
>> "Diseasing of America" but it was a long time ago so I'm not sure My
>> original editors thought I went overboard with citations of sources and
>> rightfully so. I suppose I got rid of a few I shouldn't have but I so
>> rarely get asked for one that I don't have that I probably did ok.
>>
>
> It's safe to say, that, your statement in your book about no one ever
> claiming to lose control before 1790 something is inaccurate?
>
No. It seems it would be easy enough for someone to have found such a
reference in colonial publications if such was the case.
> Why did they think you went overboard on citations? That seems weird
> to me. You would think they would want you to keep them in there.
Because it made the book difficult to read. I had citations for
practically every phrase in vast parts of the book and rather than
having a few pages of endnotes I would have had chapters worth of
endnotes.
> If
> your book is meant as a self help type of book, I can understand.
> Those self help book, like, the big book never cite anything.
The Big Book never cites anything because it was taken out of thin air.
There are not citations for "revealed truth" from "Quiet Time."
> The
> books just make claims that are unfounded. But if it was meant to be
> more informative on AA and more, then I would think you and editors
> would of agreed to leave citations in.
>
I could have had a time machine and been able to send people back in
time to see what I wrote and it still wouldn't have convinced most of
the modern-day groupers of anything. The reason why the modern-day
groupers have so much trouble with it is the same reason that
Scientologists have trouble with criticisms of Scientology. There is
ample documentation to back up the basic assertions most perturbing to
Steppers.
>> In the same vein as "loss of control" and cultural attitudes, there is
>> an excerpt of an old program from well before everyone "got educated"
>> about alcoholism by A.A. and the NCA/NCADD that I managed to hunt down
>> after hearing late at night years ago. The link is at the bottom of an
>> introduction titled, "A Blast from the Past." http://www.morerevealed.com/audio/radio.html
>>
>> Ken Raggehttp://www.morerevealed.com/
>>
>
> Thank you for the link. It does not seem to work, my browser (firefox)
> says I need a plugin. I install the plugin my browser claims to need
> but it is not working at this moment. I tried both the mp3 and aif
> link. I use a linux distro and believed I had all the important codecs
> to play mp3's, not sure what type of file an .aif is? Perhaps it is
> just firefox or I need to do something to my OS.
>
I don't know. I have windows Vista and they both the .aif and mp3 work
on my computer. I don't know what to suggest.
Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/
Topher
> Topher wrote:
>
> > The "Temperance Movements" was one of the precursors to the Oxford
> > Group.
>
> Where on earth did you get that crazy notion? Citation please
>
of my behind and typed it on here.
I ad to reinstall some plugin to get Ken's radio links to work.