''To Be Always Teachable''
David James Polewka
written by a famous doctor and ordained Rabbi, Abraham J. Twerski, MD.
He is a psychiatrist who founded the Gateway Rehabilitation Center in
Pittsburgh in 1972 (www.gatewayrehab.org), which Forbes magazine
ranks in the top 12 in the U.S.:
''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the fruits
of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that some of
these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits of an
invaluable recovery program. Much that the AA program offers could be of
value to nondrinkers, and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
The corollary to this is: We should not conclude that the only thing to be
gained from AA is abstinence from alcohol. True, abstinence is a great
enough accomplishment, and without it, nothing good can happen; but the
advantages of the program are far beyond this.
I have the Serenity Prayer affixed to the telephone in my office.
I have successfully survived many a day only by being repeatedly reminded
that there are indeed things I may be able to alter, but there are others
beyond my capability to change. A mistake in either direction would result
in either allowing a remediable condition to progress unchecked, or beating
my head against a brick wall in futile waste of time and energy. One must
look for the wisdom to make this distinction.
It appears quite true that in life one either grows or deteriorates.
There is little stagnation; indeed, stagnation soon turns into deterioration.
I have found the AA method extremely helpful in maintaining growth. Although
human beings can be very powerful, the wise and constructive use of our powers
cannot occur until we realize that we are at the same time quite helpless.
Standing alone, we are *completely* helpless. When we invoke a higher power,
and when we begin to form sincere relationships with other human beings, that
is when our potential can be realized. The need for sincerity, for self-
awareness, for an inventory, for sharing with another person -- all these are
as important to the nonalcoholic's personality growth as they are to the
alcoholic's.
These comments are addressed to AAs because I have observed some
people in the program becoming smug with their sobriety after a while,
feeling they no longer have the great need for AA that they previously did.
This is a disastrous mistake, for several reasons.
First, the denial that underlies alcoholism does not go away when one
stops drinking. It constantly reasserts itself, and as far as I am concerned,
the person with, say, ten years of sobriety who drifts away from AA is in
much the same position as the one who gives lip service to the fact of his
alcoholism, but rejects AA or any other help because he can "do it alone."
The "Look, Ma, no hands" bit is a childish reaction, rather harmless when one
is riding a bike at age eight, and all that is being risked is a scraped shin
if the bike hits a rock. When the stakes are life itself -- one's own life
and the lives of many others -- this attitude is foolish. It is no less
foolish after ten years of sobriety than before day number one. Drifting
away from AA because of a long period of sobriety is inviting relapse, and
the person who feels that he is safe because he knows he is different -- well,
we have all heard that one before.
In addition to the continued need for AA for sheer sobriety, however,
there is the personality growth that one can achieve in the program. To the
AA member convinced that he no longer has any need for growth, I suggest
starting at the First Step all over again. Only God has no need for growth,
and the idea that one no longer needs to grow is reminiscent of the
pathological feeling of omnipotence that helped start the whole thing in the
first place. As for the member who doesn't think AA can contribute to his
growth, I suggest doing a Fifth Step again.
Another comment I wish to make is in regard to those people who
relapse after a long period in the AA program. My observation has been that
successful reentry into the program is quite difficult. This is not due to
the shame of having failed, because I have seen people who have swallowed
their pride. Rather, it appears to be due to the disappointment that occurs
when they do not find the same thing in AA on reentry that they found the
first time around.
It should be apparent that growth is not a uniform phenomenon. A
newborn infant will have tripled his weight by the end of the first year of
life. If he were to continue at that rate, a child of three years would
weigh two hundred pounds! Obviously, the weight gain is proportionately very
great at the beginning, and then proceeds slowly, sometimes coming in spurts.
Similarly, in learning, a child in the first and second grades acquires
access to whole new worlds of knowledge and communication as he learns to
read and write. Such dramatic revelations never recur. The knowledge
acquired in graduate school may move significantly beyond that acquired by
undergraduates, but this advance does not have the dramatic quality that
characterizes learning how to read.
The first experience of sobriety is something that cannot be equaled.
As one stays in the program, a great deal of growth occurs. If there is a
relapse, one cannot expect to have the first-growth thrill again, simply
because one is no longer a beginner. The expectation on reentry must be of
a qualitatively different type of experience.
Another difficulty on reentry after relapse following long sobriety
in the program is that there are relatively few other people capable of
bringing their personal experience to bear as a source of help. One of the
great sources of strength for the beginner in AA is the wealth of experience
from others who have been there. But the number of people who have
successfully reentered after relapse following years of good sobriety is
comparatively small.
One day in the operating room, a surgeon ran into some unexpected
complications, and asked his assistant to check in the surgeon's lounge to
see whether anyone there could help him out. The assistant returned with the
report that the chief of the surgical department, a surgeon of great
excellence, was available. "Hell no," the operating surgeon said, "He can't
be of any help. He's never gotten himself into a mess like this."
In other situations, too, the only person who can help is someone who
has worked his way out of a mess. There are many who can help the newcomer
in AA. But when someone relapses after ten years of sobriety, a person with
twenty unbroken years of sobriety may not be able to offer much help; and the
people who have been in that particular mess seem so few that it may be
difficult to find even one.
If that observation is correct, I would like to suggest that there be
a national pooling of resources, in order to make available for AAs in each
community the experiences of members in other communities. Perhaps, in one
community, no AA is qualified to bring a personal experience of successful
reentry to the aid of a fellow alcoholic who has relapsed after extended
sobriety. In such a case, there should be a way of bringing from other
communities persons who have made successful reentry, to lead at several
meetings, and to help local members or sponsors with the problems of the
person who is in reentry now.
I have heard someone say that the AA program cannot help these people.
I strongly disagree, and suggest that we recognize where the difficulties lie,
so that the person can again recover within the program, although his needs
now may be far different from those he felt on his first entry.
AA generally does things so well that it hardly needs advice from
outsiders. But it is precisely my high regard for the program that leads me
to a suggestion for making it of even greater application to all, veterans
as well as neophytes.
--
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
dmar...@my-deja.com
n., pl. her搪新ies.
1.a.An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious
beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic
dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
b.Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
first of all this is SPAM to this newsgroup. it is also one of the
scariest examples of cult thinking i have ever seen. but at same
time it is an excellent resource for demonstrating the cult mentality
of aa members. i woudlnt have expected anything less from you
david.
> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>
> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
fruits
> of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
> problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
some of
> these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
of an
> invaluable recovery program.
this man is insane and full of self righteousness. one of pope's
once was critical of pain killers for those who wer e dying, because
the pain is what allowed people to find god. how pathetic that god
need to be found in human suffering rather than in human joy. but
there is a reason for this, people dont seek answer for why when
they re doing well, but when we suffer we want to know why, which
leads door open for people like this to try to sell us anything.
Much that the AA program offers could be of
> value to nondrinkers, and it is a shame that they cannot benefit
from it.
they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
the most vulnerable place of their lives and with their least ability to
protect themselves from cult members.
> Standing alone, we are *completely* helpless. When we invoke
a higher power,
> and when we begin to form sincere relationships with other
human beings, that
> is when our potential can be realized.
AA preaching of powerless. its bad enough they say we are
powerless over an inanimate substance, but he wants all humans
to admit they are "powerless " over everyday life. if eh can do that,
he can introduce the "answer" in the steps.
its sad and scary that he isn't able to sincerely care for others
without god. how pathetic.
> First, the denial that underlies alcoholism does not go away
when one
> stops drinking.
sez who EXACTLY? him? bill wilson? this pretty much goes
against all concepts of psychology, human growth and potential
and i suspect even several religious philosophies as well. But it
smacks of original sin and religious fundamentalism. he is
claiming all people who become sober are as sick as they were
when they drank. they cant have personal growth which would
allow themselves to grow past the person they were when they
were addicted. disgusting. but once again, he has to invent a
problem and a need so he may introduce the "answer"
> It constantly reasserts itself, and as far as I am concerned,
yes, as far AS HE is concerned. as far as i am concerned, he is
full of shit
> the person with, say, ten years of sobriety who drifts away from
AA is in
> much the same position as the one who gives lip service to the
fact of his
> alcoholism, but rejects AA or any other help because he can "do
it alone."
once again, sober ten years without AA =drunk. the only true
sobriety is in AA. this is the cult mechanics of one "true" answer
> The "Look, Ma, no hands" bit is a childish reaction, rather
harmless when one
> is riding a bike at age eight, and all that is being risked is a
scraped shin
> if the bike hits a rock. When the stakes are life itself -- one's own
life
> and the lives of many others -- this attitude is foolish. It is no
less
> foolish after ten years of sobriety than before day number one.
Drifting
> away from AA because of a long period of sobriety is inviting
relapse, and
> the person who feels that he is safe because he knows he is
different -- well,
> we have all heard that one before.
now leaving AA is called childish and foolish. those who leave are
threatened to relapse and perhaps death. the person who leaves
is heretical to cult beliefs and must be discredited. heretic by the
way means choice in dictionary.
> In addition to the continued need for AA for sheer sobriety,
however,
> there is the personality growth that one can achieve in the
program.
unless they decide to leave. once again, one "true" answer
To the
> AA member convinced that he no longer has any need for
growth, I suggest
> starting at the First Step all over again.
have a different belief about what is best for your own well being
than that of cult?, NO SOUP FOR YOU! back to square one.
Only God has no need for growth,
> and the idea that one no longer needs to grow is reminiscent of
the
> pathological feeling of omnipotence that helped start the whole
thing in the
> first place.
i dont know, seems like stagnation ot me. to leave AA is to grow, to
stay is regurgitation.
As for the member who doesn't think AA can contribute to his
> growth, I suggest doing a Fifth Step again.
why does continue to promote the steps as the solution to a
non-existent problem when they already by his admission have
dismissed the steps? because thats the problem , there is no
problem with those who leave, but with himself, he has defined the
problem as heretically thinking you dont need AA. he has also
narrowly, and self servingly defined growth as being in AA (one
true answer again), never mind its obvious these people have
grown beyond AA ( how can you grow beyond god?) he doesn't
really care about what is in these peoples best interest, only that
they perpetually be imprisoned to justify his belief system.
in fact the only one who isn't teachable is him, he isn't able to see
beyond the box of his own beliefs, and is so fearful to even
contemplate doing for himself, those who dismiss his beliefs or
growth beyond them are childish, foolish, sick and threatened with
death and self destruction. very scary how selfish he is.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
dmar...@my-deja.com
regurgitation
of the same dogma over and over. when in last 60 years has AA's
Program
showed that it has evolved and had any interest in incorporating
ANYTHING which the world has learned about alcoholism in last
60 years?
AA is the most anti intellectual, anti-growth organization i heave
ever
seen or experienced in my life. its about as open to change as any
other
fundamentalist religion on planet.
AA is about traditions and faith healing belief systems, anything
which
weakens that dependency in belief and faith , such science, facts,
contradictory research or even AA's own survey which show its 5%
first
year member retention rate, is buried under the traditions. hell,
when i
was in AA, they were still telling me and over newcomers the myth
about
eating chocolates to help fight cravings. this was total bullshit
because that does the opposite by swinging the newly sober
alcoholics
blood sugar topsy turvy and make them more likely to want to
drink..
to be "teachable"? what does that mean? does that mean merely
being
totally open and empty like a computer hard drive or a sponge and
allow
yourself to be filled with the thoughts and will others have for you?
does that mean to turn off your ability to think critically,
rationally, intelligently and make decisions for yourself?
AA's slogans strive for that and make that intent clear: "Don't
analyze, utilize, Don't think, stinking thinking, anyone's will is
better for you than your own, Shut up, sit down and learn
something,
STUPID!, Keep it simple stupid, that's a sign of your disease
talking!,
IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!, You best thinking got You here, I
NEVER MET ANYONE TOO STUPID TO GET THIS PROGRAM,
BUT I HAVE SEEN PLENTY
OF PEOPLE TOO SMART TO GET IT, think......think.......think =
Drink...Drink...Drink, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in
your mouth, ego=edge god out,
no, "teachable" isn't much of ability, a dog is teachable. but asking
questions and questioning what you are told, to critically think for
yourself, to discover new ways and things that others before you
never
even thought of, to find your own words rather than parroting the
words
of "elders", now that's something to strive for. people who are
allowed
do that will grow and expand their minds.
AA has no interest in anything like that which didn't come straight
from
bill Wilson's plagiarism of the bible and oxford group.
"Believers tend to insist on open-mindedness except when it
applies to
themselves. It is not some noble notion of intellectual fairness
which these people promote. The open-mindedness argument is
simply an
appeal to sympathy made by those who have no good evidence in
their
support and no good response to criticism. It's whining...nothing
more."
Tommy kins
<dmar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8q0lrn$h76$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> her·e·sy (hr-s)
> n., pl. her·e·sies.
>
> 1.a.An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious
> beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic
> dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
> b.Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
>
> first of all this is SPAM to this newsgroup. it is also one of the
> scariest examples of cult thinking i have ever seen. but at same
> time it is an excellent resource for demonstrating the cult
mentality
> of aa members. i woudlnt have expected anything less from you
> david.
>
> > ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
> >
> > As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
> fruits
> > of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
> > In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
> > problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted
that
> some of
> > these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
> of an
> > invaluable recovery program.
>
> Much that the AA program offers could be of
> > value to nondrinkers, and it is a shame that they cannot benefit
> from it.
>
> they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
> the most vulnerable place of their lives and with their least
ability to
> protect themselves from cult members.
Dya'know, sometimes when these posts scratch over here from arf12's
and arna-heads, I get scared, literally speaking. I mean the 'body
language' of hate is so strong, contempt I suppose I understand,
ridicule I'd be able to live with, but pure hatred. oooh, and I'd bet
some (I know some) are quite reasonable when discussing other things.
Makes me more open somehow, see I believed (my conscious thoughts
wanted to) that AA was for losers and Winos. Yet funnily or fecking
grudgingly I began to see that these guys had something I couldn't
comprehend.
Where did that leave me. God, ahmm well okay I suppose there may be
bit of an exercise there, not too much effort needed to deny I was
one. Disease, could be, maybe, perhaps- but one thing was sure and
certain, I was suffering. Cure, recovery, or latent religious
fervour, definitely none. Life just throws a whole heap of learning
at me. Makes me want to rattle a few heads together and tell folks
to get on with it, may work different on me than on you. But to hate
someone because ot the choice they make to follow a chosen path, and
quite likely I'm prone to say that the AA path is the least harmful
one in my case. I stopped drinking, reclaimed my 'life', renewed my
spirit, yeah I wonder did I do it on my own, but again and take this
as hindsight, most meetings or AA folks I listened to were 'all about'
the work that 'I' had to do. Asking an 'imagined deity' for help -
well hindsight again - it did help at the time.
Now about Bill Wilson, when did he get canonised. Figure about the
same time as the AMA and the great philosophers. Cautious note and I
speak for Tommy, I believe the big book, and particularly the 12 steps
and specifically the 12 traditions were written with alcoholics in
mind, and alcoholics who might step on the path of recovery by
utilising these very same books. 'Tis a very broad stretch of the
imagination to expect that everyone would agree. I now have two
choices, recover with the help of AA, or recover without AA. The
third choice is I suppose, complain about either (or both).
Cheerio and godbless
--
Tommy K (Dublin)
tomm...@indigo.ie take out INSurance to reply
Wisterio Podgoski
and its pervasive omnipresence in so many forms of recovery methods, the
courts, television and popular culture. It's human nature to resent
having something continually rammed down one's throat! Maybe I'm wrong,
but I've yet to see a alt.recovery-from-Taoism newsgroup!
Tommy kins wrote:
>
> <dmar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8q0lrn$h76$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > her搪新y (hr-s)
> > n., pl. her搪新ies.
> >
Wisterio Podgoski
stay sober, but I've certainly met many too smart!" I'll just leave that
statement alone as I believe it speaks perfectly for itself!
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
Is his insanity documented in a peer-reviewed publication?
>> Much that the AA program offers could be of value to nondrinkers,
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
>the most vulnerable place of their lives...
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
Remove AA's To Email
David James Polewka <imb...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8q1rqm$g2c$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> dmar...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
> >newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
> >cravings.
>
> Were you ever in the psych ward?
>
>
Gemini
He is only familiar with 12 steppers, and they remain in complete
denial about thier drinking, scapegoating a mythical disease, it wasnt
them drinking, its the disease talking, thinking drinking.
> > It constantly reasserts itself, and as far as I am concerned,
> yes, as far AS HE is concerned. as far as i am concerned, he is
> full of shit
>
12 steppers never assume responsibility for anything, just displace
their drinking with obsession with 12 stepping, and thus the obsession
with another reality remains always reasserting itself whether they
stay sober in the unreal 12 stepping world, or start their drinking
again, or graduate to gaming, they never leave the path they were on to
begin with, just become more narcissitic, egotistical, selfserving,
manipulative, controlling abusive, and better liars.
AA incited a new word to be created in english languange, Co-
dependency! The codependency of a drinking person is nothing compared
to how sophisticated efforts made to form codependent relations,
standing on anothers back when they stop their drinking, and are more
of a force to be reckoned with. 12 steppin reinforces all the worse
personality traits of the substance abuser, reinforces codependency in
relationship and these 12 steppers using and standing on others backs
for their codependent needs.
Personality growth, BS, codependent personality growth, masters degree
in manipulating others into no win codependent relations, yes.
All 12 steppers are scary and need to be exiled to a colony on a island
all to themselves where the only people they can screw over, are people
like themselves.
Linda
David James Polewka
> hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and
>over newcomers the myth about
>eating chocolates to help fight cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
--
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
David James Polewka
>> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>>
>> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
>>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
>> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
>>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
>>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits
>>of an invaluable recovery program.
>
>this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
>
>they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
[reposted because of HipClone cancel]
>hell, when i was in AA, they were still telling me and over
>newcomers the myth about eating chocolates to help fight
>cravings.
Were you ever in the psych ward?
--
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
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cancelled for trolling
Sue
Will you plese stop posting everything you say 15 times? Once is more
than enough, trust me.
> Were you ever in the psych ward?
>
> --
dmar...@my-deja.com
just FYI, as you can see below Questioner is the forever deceptive
and trolling David James Polewka. it became clear to me because
he was cancled for trolling under both his names. not to mention
the inanity of his writng.
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dmar...@my-deja.com
blund...@my-deja.com
imb...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I found an interesting article in the December, 1975 A.A. Grapevine,
> written by a famous doctor and ordained Rabbi, Abraham J. Twerski, MD.
> He is a psychiatrist who founded the Gateway Rehabilitation Center in
> Pittsburgh in 1972 (www.gatewayrehab.org), which Forbes magazine
> ranks in the top 12 in the U.S.:
>
> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
Thanks for posting that. It is the most concise proof I've seen that
AA is a self-serving cult.
You will NEVER see me in an AA meeting ever again. I've been to about
8 AA meetings in my life, and read that freaking big book about 3
times - and I can't believe it took me so long to see the truth.
Fuck AA.
blund...@my-deja.com
imb...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some
observations.
> >> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
> >>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
> >>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the
benefits
> >>of an invaluable recovery program.
> >
> >this man is insane and full of self righteousness.
>
> Is his insanity documented in a peer-reviewed publication?
>
> >> Much that the AA program offers could be of value to nondrinkers,
> >> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
> >
> >they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
> >the most vulnerable place of their lives...
>
> They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
You fucking asshole! So that gives you the right to FUCK with their
minds???!!! FUCK YOU and FUCK AA!
What the human race needs is less AA, and more personal responsibility.
When someone finally does comes to the realization that they are beaten
by alcohol - the last fucking thing they need is to be indoctrinated
into a cult. What they do need is to understand that they have to
commit to never drinking again - and be PERSONALLY responsible for
following thru with the commitment.
With the Internet, we are FINALLY starting to see the beginning of the
end of the AA cult - a true blight on human culture worldwide.
Craig S.
news:8riil7$ig5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> What they do need is to understand that they have to
> commit to never drinking again - and be PERSONALLY responsible for
> following thru with the commitment.
That's what I've always understood AA to be about... one day at a time. So
I'm not sure where we differ in philosophy.
blund...@my-deja.com
With AA, they make you THINK that you don't take PERSONAL
responsibility - you get your mind screwed with so you think you have
to rely on the group to stop drinking(even though it WAS your
decision). The "one day at a time" thing is a perfect example of AA
doublespeak - which makes you think you have to "keep coming back" to
the group. Just quit drinking FOREVER, and done with it.
Craig S.
news:8risqi$s1n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
I do understand where you are coming from, but the philosophy of "one day at
a time" tends to extend far beyond not taking a drink, at least in my own
experience. The "one day at a time" idea is a useful tool when first
quitting because it seems to take aways the overwhelming idea of moving past
an old standby, booze, that was such a big part of our lives. I doubt many
people with long term sobriety, when asked whether they will be drinking
next week, will say, "Oh, I'm really not sure, I only take it one day at a
time." This is nonsense. From my viewpoint, the notion of "one day at a
time" still comes into play when I realize that as long as I continue to do
on a daily basis what I have done today, then I will likely be able to
maintain sobriety indefinitely. The responsibility for this rests squarely
on my own shoulders.
Craig
Fr.Thomas
> That's cool. So why do you need the group?
>
> I going to stick by my statements - the XA culture and language has
> evolved into a self-preserving entity. I don't have a qualm with the
> goal of AA to get problem drinkers to stop drinking - I do have a
> problem when the price is a lifetime commitment to a support group.
You seem more attached than most of the AAer's I know. If you're so
devoted to independence and pragmatism why don't you just move on?
Fr.
Craig S.
>That's cool. So why do you need the group?
Need? Nah. I see a difference between and desire. I have generally
enjoyed my association with the fellowship. At one time I attended a lot of
meetings. I go maybe once a week now. I don't believe not attending
meetings would affect my commitment to not drink.
blund...@my-deja.com
That's cool. So why do you need the group?
I going to stick by my statements - the XA culture and language has
evolved into a self-preserving entity. I don't have a qualm with the
goal of AA to get problem drinkers to stop drinking - I do have a
problem when the price is a lifetime commitment to a support group.
I can see how the AA culture has perpetuated itself. If the group
wasn't there, then there would be no place for newcomers to turn(at
least this was the case up until recently). So the group evolved a
doctrine that kept its "members" coming back indefinately. This may
have been helpful in the 1950's - but this is the year 2000. People
simply need to be given the information that if they "discover" they
have a drinking problem, then it is only reasonable that they need to
quit drinking now, and forever.
For many, AA actually prolongs the decision to quit drinking.
The "disease" theory has evolved into a "not my fault" scenario,
playing to a drunk's inner desire to get ripped... because, hey, its
not MY fault - I've got a "disease". While a drunk may have
reprogrammed his brain by continually getting drunk and experiencing
intense pleasure, thereby setting up a juvenile "irresistable" desire
to relive past perceived pleasurable experiences - I'm not sure it can
be called a disease. It is more like "human nature", and "bad
habits". The best way to resist the juvenile "irresistable urge" is
with reason. Grow up, take responsibility, make a commitment to quit
drinking forever and then avoid beginning sequences of events that in
the past have lead to drinking(old, bad habits). We are creatures of
habit. The trick is to make it your habit NOT to drink. But if your
habit of not drinking involves needing to go to meetings - it is like
you've replaced one bad habit with another(albiet probably a better
habit).
> Craig
David James Polewka
>> >they cant because AA's program is designed to target the those in
>> >the most vulnerable place of their lives...
>>
>> They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
>
>You fucking asshole! So that gives you the right to FUCK with their
>minds???!!! FUCK YOU and FUCK AA!
No, the fact that they are a MENACE TO SOCIETY gives us
the right to FUCK with their minds! And YOU are a MENACE
TO SOCIETY, TOO! Get with the Program,...............or.....
W E W I L L B U R Y Y O U . . . . A L I V E ! !
Yo Mama
......The trick is to make it your habit NOT to drink. > > Craig
<SNIP>
Boy, he sure makes it sound easy, huh?
LMAO
vermin
diana
love - living on victorious emotions
hate - healing all things egregiously
In article <8pvae2$oh4$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
imb...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I found an interesting article in the December, 1975 A.A. Grapevine,
> written by a famous doctor and ordained Rabbi, Abraham J. Twerski, MD.
> He is a psychiatrist who founded the Gateway Rehabilitation Center in
> Pittsburgh in 1972 (www.gatewayrehab.org), which Forbes magazine
> ranks in the top 12 in the U.S.:
>
> ''To Be Always Teachable'' -- by Abraham J. Twerski, MD
>
> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
fruits
> of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some observations.
> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients
with
> problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
some of
> these did not drink, because they are losing out on the benefits of
an
> invaluable recovery program. Much that the AA program offers could
be of
> value to nondrinkers, and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from
it.
> The corollary to this is: We should not conclude that the only thing
to be
> gained from AA is abstinence from alcohol. True, abstinence is a
great
> enough accomplishment, and without it, nothing good can happen; but
the
> advantages of the program are far beyond this.
> I have the Serenity Prayer affixed to the telephone in my
office.
> I have successfully survived many a day only by being repeatedly
reminded
> that there are indeed things I may be able to alter, but there are
others
> beyond my capability to change. A mistake in either direction would
result
> in either allowing a remediable condition to progress unchecked, or
beating
> my head against a brick wall in futile waste of time and energy. One
must
> look for the wisdom to make this distinction.
> It appears quite true that in life one either grows or
deteriorates.
> There is little stagnation; indeed, stagnation soon turns into
deterioration.
> I have found the AA method extremely helpful in maintaining growth.
Although
> human beings can be very powerful, the wise and constructive use of
our powers
> cannot occur until we realize that we are at the same time quite
helpless.
> Standing alone, we are *completely* helpless. When we invoke a
higher power,
> and when we begin to form sincere relationships with other human
beings, that
> is when our potential can be realized. The need for sincerity, for
self-
> awareness, for an inventory, for sharing with another person -- all
these are
> as important to the nonalcoholic's personality growth as they are to
the
> alcoholic's.
> These comments are addressed to AAs because I have observed
some
> people in the program becoming smug with their sobriety after a
while,
> feeling they no longer have the great need for AA that they
previously did.
> This is a disastrous mistake, for several reasons.
> First, the denial that underlies alcoholism does not go away
when one
> stops drinking. It constantly reasserts itself, and as far as I am
concerned,
> the person with, say, ten years of sobriety who drifts away from AA
is in
> much the same position as the one who gives lip service to the fact
of his
> alcoholism, but rejects AA or any other help because he can "do it
alone."
> The "Look, Ma, no hands" bit is a childish reaction, rather harmless
when one
> is riding a bike at age eight, and all that is being risked is a
scraped shin
> if the bike hits a rock. When the stakes are life itself -- one's
own life
> and the lives of many others -- this attitude is foolish. It is no
less
> foolish after ten years of sobriety than before day number one.
Drifting
> away from AA because of a long period of sobriety is inviting
relapse, and
> the person who feels that he is safe because he knows he is
different -- well,
> we have all heard that one before.
> In addition to the continued need for AA for sheer sobriety,
however,
> there is the personality growth that one can achieve in the program.
To the
> AA member convinced that he no longer has any need for growth, I
suggest
> starting at the First Step all over again. Only God has no need for
growth,
> and the idea that one no longer needs to grow is reminiscent of the
> pathological feeling of omnipotence that helped start the whole thing
in the
> first place. As for the member who doesn't think AA can contribute
to his
> growth, I suggest doing a Fifth Step again.
> Another comment I wish to make is in regard to those people who
> relapse after a long period in the AA program. My observation has
been that
> successful reentry into the program is quite difficult. This is not
due to
> the shame of having failed, because I have seen people who have
swallowed
> their pride. Rather, it appears to be due to the disappointment that
occurs
> when they do not find the same thing in AA on reentry that they found
the
> first time around.
> It should be apparent that growth is not a uniform phenomenon.
A
> newborn infant will have tripled his weight by the end of the first
year of
> life. If he were to continue at that rate, a child of three years
would
> weigh two hundred pounds! Obviously, the weight gain is
proportionately very
> great at the beginning, and then proceeds slowly, sometimes coming in
spurts.
> Similarly, in learning, a child in the first and second grades
acquires
> access to whole new worlds of knowledge and communication as he
learns to
> read and write. Such dramatic revelations never recur. The
knowledge
> acquired in graduate school may move significantly beyond that
acquired by
> undergraduates, but this advance does not have the dramatic quality
that
> characterizes learning how to read.
> The first experience of sobriety is something that cannot be
equaled.
> As one stays in the program, a great deal of growth occurs. If there
is a
> relapse, one cannot expect to have the first-growth thrill again,
simply
> because one is no longer a beginner. The expectation on reentry must
be of
> a qualitatively different type of experience.
> Another difficulty on reentry after relapse following long
sobriety
> in the program is that there are relatively few other people capable
of
> bringing their personal experience to bear as a source of help. One
of the
> great sources of strength for the beginner in AA is the wealth of
experience
> from others who have been there. But the number of people who have
> successfully reentered after relapse following years of good sobriety
is
> comparatively small.
> One day in the operating room, a surgeon ran into some
unexpected
> complications, and asked his assistant to check in the surgeon's
lounge to
> see whether anyone there could help him out. The assistant returned
with the
> report that the chief of the surgical department, a surgeon of great
> excellence, was available. "Hell no," the operating surgeon
said, "He can't
> be of any help. He's never gotten himself into a mess like this."
> In other situations, too, the only person who can help is
someone who
> has worked his way out of a mess. There are many who can help the
newcomer
> in AA. But when someone relapses after ten years of sobriety, a
person with
> twenty unbroken years of sobriety may not be able to offer much help;
and the
> people who have been in that particular mess seem so few that it may
be
> difficult to find even one.
> If that observation is correct, I would like to suggest that
there be
> a national pooling of resources, in order to make available for AAs
in each
> community the experiences of members in other communities. Perhaps,
in one
> community, no AA is qualified to bring a personal experience of
successful
> reentry to the aid of a fellow alcoholic who has relapsed after
extended
> sobriety. In such a case, there should be a way of bringing from
other
> communities persons who have made successful reentry, to lead at
several
> meetings, and to help local members or sponsors with the problems of
the
> person who is in reentry now.
> I have heard someone say that the AA program cannot help these
people.
> I strongly disagree, and suggest that we recognize where the
difficulties lie,
> so that the person can again recover within the program, although his
needs
> now may be far different from those he felt on his first entry.
> AA generally does things so well that it hardly needs advice
from
> outsiders. But it is precisely my high regard for the program that
leads me
> to a suggestion for making it of even greater application to all,
veterans
> as well as neophytes.
>
> --
> =======================
> "Endeavor to persevere"
> =======================
>
>
Moragan
> imb...@mindspring.com wrote:
> > dmar...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > >>
> > >> As an outsider, but one who has been privileged to enjoy the
> > >>fruits of the AA Fellowship, I would like to offer some
> observations.
> > >> In my psychiatric practice, I have occasion to see patients with
> > >>problems other than alcohol. I have often sincerely regretted that
> > >>some of these did not drink, because they are losing out on the
> benefits
> > >>of an invaluable recovery program.
> > >
> >
> > Is his insanity documented in a peer-reviewed publication?
> >
> > >> and it is a shame that they cannot benefit from it.
> > >
> > >the most vulnerable place of their lives...
> >
> > They won't listen any other time. Just ask their families...
>
> You fucking asshole! So that gives you the right to FUCK with their
> minds???!!! FUCK YOU and FUCK AA!
>
>
> When someone finally does comes to the realization that they are beaten
> by alcohol - the last fucking thing they need is to be indoctrinated
> commit to never drinking again - and be PERSONALLY responsible for
> following thru with the commitment.
>
> end of the AA cult - a true blight on human culture worldwide.
>
>
> Before you buy.
hey look the trimpy cultists are back. funny thing about trimpy's putting
an end to the 12 step movement, the 12 step meetings are not growing fewer
in number. Yet there is still no rational recovery available outside of the
for profit franchises.
go figure.
Remove AA's To Email
AA members that the best they can hope for is a reprieve from their disease
today so concentrate on not drinking today don't worry about tomorrow you
can deal with that when it becomes today and you're not worrying about
anything but not drinking today.
It's a circular argument that serves to keep you trapped in disease fighting
mode and since you can't do that without AA Wallah it keeps you going back
to AA. I don't know where you attended meetings but I've hit them in three
states and several cities and I've heard plenty of long time abstinent
people saying the one day at a time and explaining that they could drink
tomorrow. Like you I agree it's nonsense and from what I've experienced
from old timers in the rewms it probably had nothing to do with what they
actually believed because frankly most of the ones I knew secretly believed
they would never drink again but spouted the AA party line about the day at
a time hogwash anyway.
Craig S. <cspu...@mtneer.net> wrote in message
news:8riugo$ema$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
>
> I do understand where you are coming from, but the philosophy of "one day
at
> a time" tends to extend far beyond not taking a drink, at least in my own
> experience. The "one day at a time" idea is a useful tool when first
> quitting because it seems to take aways the overwhelming idea of moving
past
> an old standby, booze, that was such a big part of our lives. I doubt
many
> people with long term sobriety, when asked whether they will be drinking
> next week, will say, "Oh, I'm really not sure, I only take it one day at a
> time." This is nonsense. From my viewpoint, the notion of "one day at a
> time" still comes into play when I realize that as long as I continue to
do
> on a daily basis what I have done today, then I will likely be able to
> maintain sobriety indefinitely. The responsibility for this rests
squarely
> on my own shoulders.
>
> Craig
>
>
Remove AA's To Email
attending a lot of meetings? I think steppers truly do use different
dictionaries then the rest of society if you think 104 or 52 meetings, for
that matter, is anything less than a 'shit load' of meetings. And I mean
that both literally and figuratively.
Craig S. <cspu...@citynet.net> wrote in message
news:8rjfkg$2eh$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> blund...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8rj4qp$2me$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >That's cool. So why do you need the group?
>
>
Remove AA's To Email
original. Ya RIGHT!
Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DD20F0...@earthlink.net...
> blund...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > That's cool. So why do you need the group?
> >
> > I going to stick by my statements - the XA culture and language has
> > evolved into a self-preserving entity. I don't have a qualm with the
> > goal of AA to get problem drinkers to stop drinking - I do have a
> > problem when the price is a lifetime commitment to a support group.
>
Remove AA's To Email
Where one, of two opposing groups charges up to 900% more than the other
for AA approved literature. And guess which group is being supported by
AAWS? Lets just say it's not the less expensive one.
Moragan <moragan1璉T鐠@theemeraldisle.com> wrote in message
news:8rkt15$u6$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
Yo Mama
That's right...no argument there...all I have is a daily reprieve.
> It's a circular argument that serves to keep you trapped in disease
fighting
> mode <SNIP>
Bullshit. It isn't about fighting. I've done that all my life..fought this
disease with denial. It's about surrender...NOT fighting anymore. And what
a sweet relief that is...to NOT fight everything and everyone anymore.
Yo Mama
blund...@my-deja.com
"Fr.Thomas" <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> blund...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > That's cool. So why do you need the group?
> >
> > I going to stick by my statements - the XA culture and language has
> > evolved into a self-preserving entity. I don't have a qualm with
the
> > goal of AA to get problem drinkers to stop drinking - I do have a
> > problem when the price is a lifetime commitment to a support group.
>
Attached to what?
> If you're so
> devoted to independence and pragmatism why don't you just move on?
I already have - I encountered this thread on alt.recovery.from-12-
steps - you seem to have encountered it on alt.recovery.aa; it isn't my
fault that it is cross-posted.
> Fr.
The Blunderbuss
(-@------/
(--------\
//
blund...@my-deja.com
Then why did you post an argumentative reply? Asshole.
The original AA wanker who cross-posted this thread to both ARAA, and
ARF12S was the one looking for a fight. So - you've got it then. If
you don't want fights, stay out of ARF12S, and tell your wanking
friends to stay out of ARF12S too - OK? As long as you groupers
continue to post and reply to ARF12S - we will reply in kind. I don't
see any of us starting shit in your newsgroup. Remember - you cult
assholes started this cross-thread.
alt.recovery.addiction.alcohol is the place to bicker - because that is
where newcomers come looking for information on recovery options. But
you cult assholes are always on your best behaviour in there - serving
up sweetness while trolling for new members to indocrinate into your
cult. Then you try to come in here and pollute ARF12S with your swill.
Anyway, have a nice, sober, cultish day. I'll just take the sober
part. Life is tough - live with it.
> Yo Mama
Remove AA's To Email
Yo Mama <magic...@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:ZpqD5.41298$M%3.45...@quark.idirect.com...
>
> That's right...no argument there...all I have is a daily reprieve.
that's right...no argument there....as long as you believe that...that's all
you'll ever have is a daily temporary relief from what you believe diseases
you To bad you don't recognize it's AA diseasing you and not the alcohol..
> > It's a circular argument that serves to keep you trapped in disease
> fighting
> > mode <SNIP>
>
> Bullshit. It isn't about fighting. I've done that all my life..fought
this
> disease with denial. It's about surrender...NOT fighting anymore. And
what
> a sweet relief that is...to NOT fight everything and everyone anymore.
Not much I can say to rabid AA internalized dialogue. I would say have fun
but fear is about all you're going to get out of AA.
Fr.Thomas
>
> In article <39DD20F0...@earthlink.net>,
> "Fr.Thomas" <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > blund...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I going to stick by my statements - the XA culture and language has
> > > evolved into a self-preserving entity. I don't have a qualm with
> the
> > > goal of AA to get problem drinkers to stop drinking - I do have a
> > > problem when the price is a lifetime commitment to a support group.
> >
>
> Attached to what?
>
> > If you're so
> > devoted to independence and pragmatism why don't you just move on?
>
> I already have - I encountered this thread on alt.recovery.from-12-
> steps - you seem to have encountered it on alt.recovery.aa; it isn't my
> fault that it is cross-posted.
You didn't have to jump in did you? Admit it you're hooked on
conflict. Think you're going to save the world from 12 step programs?
Can't find anyplace to engage the real world? Talk about wasting time.
BTW your name is the perfect Freudian slip, blunderbuss: firearm with
short barrel and flaring muzzle, a blundering person. LOL
Fr.
Fr.Thomas
>
> lol I've seen this argument recently on another list. But don't worry it's
> original. Ya RIGHT!
Truth hurt? Little grade school comments. Ya
Fr.
>
> Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > That's cool. So why do you need the group?
> > >
> > > I going to stick by my statements - the XA culture and language has
> > > evolved into a self-preserving entity. I don't have a qualm with the
> > > goal of AA to get problem drinkers to stop drinking - I do have a
> > > problem when the price is a lifetime commitment to a support group.
> >
> > You seem more attached than most of the AAer's I know. If you're so
> > devoted to independence and pragmatism why don't you just move on?
> > Fr.
Fr.Thomas
>
> attending a lot of meetings? I think steppers truly do use different
> dictionaries then the rest of society if you think 104 or 52 meetings, for
> that matter, is anything less than a 'shit load' of meetings.
I take you *have* a dictionary. Look up fellowship. Tough concept for
some I know.
Fr.
Fr.Thomas
>
>
> Where one, of two opposing groups charges up to 900% more than the other
> for AA approved literature. And guess which group is being supported by
> AAWS? Lets just say it's not the less expensive one.
If you want to be the keeper of useless financial trivia you could find
something more interesting I'm sure. Anything else your not hooked on?
Fr.
Remove AA's To Email
Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DE42EE...@earthlink.net...
Remove AA's To Email
Religion
Religious
Spiritual
sobriety
lies
half truths
Responsibility
Mental Disorder
Disease
oops I forgot no cheating you can't use Billy W's 12 steppen Dictionary
Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DE416A...@earthlink.net...
> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
> >
Remove AA's To Email
It's not original that's all. Don't be upset just get some arguments less
used which actually mean something.
Truth hurt didn't it!
Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DE40A2...@earthlink.net...
> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
> >
Remove AA's To Email
> You didn't have to jump in did you? Admit it you're hooked on
> conflict.
Admit you're hooked on AA and perpetual recovery. LOL.
> Think you're going to save the world from 12 step programs?
Yes but mostly the world will save itself.
> Can't find anyplace to engage the real world?
hmmm. If recent memory serves you're also involved in this dialogue, if one
can call conversation with steppers dialogue. I mean I know you steppers
like to hide things from yourselves (the truth) but this is carrying it a
bit far.
> Talk about wasting time.
Yes dialogue, if one can call it that, with steppers is frequently limited
by their propensity for self mendacity.
> BTW your name is the perfect Freudian slip, blunderbuss: firearm with
> short barrel and flaring muzzle, a blundering person. LOL
Very droll I'm sure, to someone somewhere without a clue.
>
> Fr.
Fr.Thomas
>
Keep us posted on what the human race needs will ya?
Fr.
Remove AA's To Email
with this concept. Besides I'm much better at identifying what I don't need
like AA.
Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DE4648...@earthlink.net...
Fr.Thomas
>
> It's not original that's all. Don't be upset just get some arguments less
> used which actually mean something.
>
> Truth hurt didn't it!
You mean that you're hooked on conflict? Seems that is does.
Fr.
dmar...@my-deja.com
dont forget
cult
proselytization
white wash
double speak
insanity
creator
god
will
ego
"Remove AA's To Email" <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
> Got a dictionary? Look up:
>
> Religion
> Religious
> Spiritual
> sobriety
> lies
> half truths
> Responsibility
> Mental Disorder
> Disease
>
> oops I forgot no cheating you can't use Billy W's 12 steppen
Dictionary
>
> Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:39DE416A...@earthlink.net...
> > Remove AA's To Email wrote:
> > >
> > > You attend maybe 104 or 52 times a year and you don't
consider this
> > > attending a lot of meetings? I think steppers truly do use
different
> > > dictionaries then the rest of society if you think 104 or 52
meetings,
> for
> > > that matter, is anything less than a 'shit load' of meetings.
> >
> > I take you *have* a dictionary. Look up fellowship. Tough
concept for
> > some I know.
> >
> > Fr.
>
>
Remove AA's To Email
> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
> >
Stepper 101: Immediately above you will note a very transparent attempt to
twist reality. This is your first lesson in Stepper theory. Twist and
subvert reality at every opportunity. The more idiotic it sounds and
farther from the truth you can make it the better.
Fr.Thomas
> Admit you're hooked on AA and perpetual recovery. LOL.
LOL yourself. I'm not a member of AA
> > Think you're going to save the world from 12 step programs?
>
> Yes but mostly the world will save itself.
>
> > Can't find anyplace to engage the real world?
>
> hmmm. If recent memory serves you're also involved in this dialogue, if one
> can call conversation with steppers dialogue. I mean I know you steppers
> like to hide things from yourselves (the truth) but this is carrying it a
> bit far.
Not a member of AA never done steps.
> > Talk about wasting time.
> Yes dialogue, if one can call it that, with steppers is frequently limited
> by their propensity for self mendacity.
Yet you continue?
Fr.
Fr.Thomas
> Stepper 101: Immediately above you will note a very transparent attempt to
> twist reality.
You're reality is twisted enough.
> This is your first lesson in Stepper theory. Twist and
> subvert reality at every opportunity. The more idiotic it sounds and
> farther from the truth you can make it the better.
You know more about the steps than I, how is that?
Fr.
Moragan
"Remove AA's To Email" <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote in message
news:AkqD5.45222$g6.17...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> You attend maybe 104 or 52 times a year and you don't consider this
> attending a lot of meetings? I think steppers truly do use different
> dictionaries then the rest of society if you think 104 or 52 meetings, for
> that both literally and figuratively.
I know people who attend church a hell of lot more than this. Will you
attempt to save them as well?
>
>
> Craig S. <cspu...@citynet.net> wrote in message
> news:8rjfkg$2eh$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > blund...@my-deja.com wrote in message
<8rj4qp$2me$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> > >That's cool. So why do you need the group?
> >
> >
Fr.Thomas
>
> Sorry I tend not to speak for anyone but myself. I note you have difficulty
> with this concept. Besides I'm much better at identifying what I don't need
> like AA.
When it comes to identifying what you *don't* need I'll bet it's not
limited to AA. So many windmills so little time. Recovery from
substance abuse makes sense. Recovery from a volunteer program is
absurd.
Fr.
Remove AA's To Email
Moragan <moragan1˙ćŁTôę@theemeraldisle.com> wrote in message
news:8rlhoe$65c$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> "Remove AA's To Email" <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote in message
> news:AkqD5.45222$g6.17...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > You attend maybe 104 or 52 times a year and you don't consider this
> > attending a lot of meetings? I think steppers truly do use different
> > dictionaries then the rest of society if you think 104 or 52 meetings,
for
> > that matter, is anything less than a 'shit load' of meetings. And I
mean
> > that both literally and figuratively.
>
> I know people who attend church a hell of lot more than this. Will you
> attempt to save them as well?
>
up.
Remove AA's To Email
> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
>
> > Stepper 101: Immediately above you will note a very transparent attempt
to
> > twist reality.
>
> You're reality is twisted enough.
Not really it was what you were attempting to do.
> > This is your first lesson in Stepper theory. Twist and
> > subvert reality at every opportunity. The more idiotic it sounds and
> > farther from the truth you can make it the better.
>
> You know more about the steps than I, how is that?
good so you acknowledge the truth of what I previously posted. LOL. So why
are you still defending AA?
Remove AA's To Email
> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
>
>
> LOL yourself. I'm not a member of AA
hmmm.. My bad you sure do sound like on though. Are you a stepper?
>
> > > Think you're going to save the world from 12 step programs?
> >
> > Yes but mostly the world will save itself.
> >
> > > Can't find anyplace to engage the real world?
> >
> > hmmm. If recent memory serves you're also involved in this dialogue, if
one
> > can call conversation with steppers dialogue. I mean I know you
steppers
> > like to hide things from yourselves (the truth) but this is carrying it
a
> > bit far.
>
> Not a member of AA never done steps.
Counselor perhaps. Member of any other step organization. One doesn't come
by the arguments you use with out some form of connection with steppers.
> > > Talk about wasting time.
> > Yes dialogue, if one can call it that, with steppers is frequently
limited
> > by their propensity for self mendacity.
>
> Yet you continue?
Yes it's funny watching steppers run like wildfire from the truth. I
thought you said you weren't a stepper.
Remove AA's To Email
> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
> >
difficulty
> > with this concept. Besides I'm much better at identifying what I don't
need
> > like AA.
>
> When it comes to identifying what you *don't* need I'll bet it's not
> limited to AA.
You're often stuck with a loosing hand I'm sure.
> So many windmills so little time.
So many steppers so few willing to accept responsibility for their
behaviors.
> Recovery from substance abuse makes sense.
Stopping abusive alcohol or drug intake when it's apparent it's become
harmful makes sense. Becoming a member of a religious organization in the
hope of changing a behavior when you can do that for yourself is just plain
stoooooooopid.
> Recovery from a volunteer program is absurd.
Recovery from AA would be showing a level of intelligence that most children
show an innate capacity for. Too often AA attendance is coerced which it
should take responsibility for by virtue of it's signing slips. I won't
hold my breath for that as AA and AA's don't take responsibility for
anything much less their behavior.
Moragan
"Remove AA's To Email" <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote in message
sorry dude, you were cracked long before I ever replied to one of your
posts. Don't blame me for your damaged mental state.
Remove AA's To Email
See what I mean Fr. Thomas? They're really funny.
Moragan <moragan1˙ćŁTôę@theemeraldisle.com> wrote in message
news:8rlihq$h8b$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> "Remove AA's To Email" <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote in message
> sorry dude, you were cracked long before I ever replied to one of your
blund...@my-deja.com
"Moragan" <moragan1璉T鐠@theemeraldisle.com> wrote:
> hey look the trimpy cultists are back.
Wrong on three counts...
1) While "trimpy" has some good ideas - I speak for myself
2) AA="cult", "trimpy" seems to oppossed to groups and cults
3) I've NEVER been here before, will be moving on to other things quite
shortly, and will be replaced by others with similar independent ideas
that are anti-cult.
> funny thing about trimpy's putting
> an end to the 12 step movement, the 12 step meetings are not growing
fewer
> in number.
That won't last for long; what with the Internet, and recent "cult
exposure" books hitting the shelves.
> Yet there is still no rational recovery available outside of the
> for profit franchises.
You poor fool. You just don't get it. Once you've stopped drinking,
that's it! There isn't anything more. You can get on with your life.
I feel like I owe humanity something, so I will spread the word here
for a little while - but we've got lives, Bub.
> go figure.
Yes. YOU go figure - then get yourself out of that cult, and start
thinking for yourself.
--
The Blunderbuss, http://www.geocities.com/blunderbuss7/index.html
(-@------/
(--------\
//
blund...@my-deja.com
"Remove AA's To Email" <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
> OMG. I've just been called cracked by someone with a Mental
Disorder. lol.
Yes - they have "diseased" minds, you know ;^)
Fr.Thomas
> good so you acknowledge the truth of what I previously posted. LOL. So why
> are you still defending AA?
I'm not defending AA I just can't stand your intolerance. :)) Get
it??????
Fr.
blund...@my-deja.com
Get out of here, and stay on a.r.aa - I've developed an acute aversion
to both you AND alcohol. You aren't going to recruit ANYONE here.
Your pro-active recruiting only strengthens our resolve to battle your
cult-expansion mentality.
> Fr.
Remove AA's To Email
intolerance for steppers. It's fair that way. Besides it's not like AAs,
for the most part, don't claim that AA is the only way to abstinence so
attacking my intolerance is a bit, how shall we say it? 'one sided' don't
you think?
Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DE531A...@earthlink.net...
> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
>
> > good so you acknowledge the truth of what I previously posted. LOL. So
why
> > are you still defending AA?
>
> I'm not defending AA I just can't stand your intolerance. :)) Get
> it??????
>
> Fr.
Pete
to hurt one of your original arf-12ers.
When I was young and young in AA, one night a teenager told us some
stories about what happened to him across the Hudson. With me were:
an ex navy seal who did field interrogations of the NVA and Cong he
captured, an ex-clocker of major scary proportions before sobriety,
and a woman who was the clinical director of a rehab.
She had brought him to us because he was in his second time around
rehab, had a propensity for violence (and he had real reason to be
angry), and she wanted him to be around some people who had
experienced violence and learned to put it aside when we got sober.
We did what we could for him, which was mostly listen, and tell as
best we could how we had learned to value sobriety more than getting
even, and she took him back to the rehab.
After he left, the three of us were so angry at what we had heard that
we actively started planning a little visit to the asshole across the
river. The woman came back and talked us out of it; but I will tell
you that after fifteen years I still feel a black sort of anger about
the fact that he walked the world without a limp. That man is a
galling perversion of everything I believe in. But rough justice makes
me no better than him. So I do what I must, not what I can. It makes
me feel quite strange, sometimes, to contemplate the difference; but
I'm still sober.
It was with the encouragement of some people here that still post that
one of your founders became active in arf-12. It was one of those
quiet things. Nobody, not in AA or MM or RR or RET or any therapy you
want to name, much likes talking about the emotional vampires that
occasionally take some vulnerable person under their "wing" under the
guise of a "program" and mess with them till they're bored and look
for another sucker. But you'll find people in *all* the programs that
recognize that happens and do their best to counter it...
Under certain circumstances I would not hesitate at all to send
someone to your side of the fence. Whatever it takes to give someone
a chance to live without the chains of an active addiction. I won't
ever believe what you do, and most likely vice-versa. That doesn't
mean we can't deal when it's the right thing to do.
I post as Pete. It's my real name. It's not hard at all to figure out
my real addy, either. Think about what I've said, if you would, and
contact me if there's ever a need . Best of luck with your own road.
Pete
On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 21:27:57 GMT, "Remove AA's To Email"
<AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
>No just heard the exact same argument on another list and many other places.
>It's not original that's all. Don't be upset just get some arguments less
>used which actually mean something.
>
>Truth hurt didn't it!
>
>Fr.Thomas <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:39DE40A2...@earthlink.net...
>> Remove AA's To Email wrote:
>> >
Remove AA's To Email
<blund...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8rlkcc$131$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Moragan" <moragan1璉T鐠@theemeraldisle.com> wrote:
> You poor fool. You just don't get it. Once you've stopped drinking,
> that's it! There isn't anything more. You can get on with your life.
> I feel like I owe humanity something, so I will spread the word here
> for a little while - but we've got lives, Bub.
They do seem to have great difficulty with this concept don't they? But of
course if you ask them about it they'll deny a dependency on their 12 step
group. They really can't envision living their lives without their
"dependency on their 12 step group" errrr excuse me their fellowship.
Which makes you wonder if the religion, errr excuse me, the "fellowship"
isn't the whole purpose of the thing.
Well actually I think we know it is but I do try to make it more palatable
for them sometimes.
Pete
<AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
>Actually the one day a time hogwash is hogwash because it's used to remind
>AA members that the best they can hope for is a reprieve from their disease
>today so concentrate on not drinking today don't worry about tomorrow you
>can deal with that when it becomes today and you're not worrying about
>anything but not drinking today.
>
>It's a circular argument that serves to keep you trapped in disease fighting
>mode and since you can't do that without AA Wallah it keeps you going back
>to AA. I don't know where you attended meetings but I've hit them in three
>states and several cities and I've heard plenty of long time abstinent
>people saying the one day at a time and explaining that they could drink
>tomorrow. Like you I agree it's nonsense and from what I've experienced
>from old timers in the rewms it probably had nothing to do with what they
>actually believed because frankly most of the ones I knew secretly believed
>they would never drink again but spouted the AA party line about the day at
>a time hogwash anyway.
>
Hmmmm -- on my news client, the first poster in this thread is an
arf-12 person who posted to both groups. So from my perspective,
wasn't us that crossposted. Could It Possibly Have To Do With The
Cancels On Both NG's? You know -- discord for someone else's
enjoyment than posters in either group? Think about it some.
Pete
>Craig S. <cspu...@mtneer.net> wrote in message
>news:8riugo$ema$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>>
>>
>> I do understand where you are coming from, but the philosophy of "one day
>at
>> a time" tends to extend far beyond not taking a drink, at least in my own
>> experience. The "one day at a time" idea is a useful tool when first
>> quitting because it seems to take aways the overwhelming idea of moving
>past
>> an old standby, booze, that was such a big part of our lives. I doubt
>many
>> people with long term sobriety, when asked whether they will be drinking
>> next week, will say, "Oh, I'm really not sure, I only take it one day at a
>> time." This is nonsense. From my viewpoint, the notion of "one day at a
>> time" still comes into play when I realize that as long as I continue to
>do
>> on a daily basis what I have done today, then I will likely be able to
>> maintain sobriety indefinitely. The responsibility for this rests
>squarely
>> on my own shoulders.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>
Pete
>In article <39DD20F0...@earthlink.net>,
> "Fr.Thomas" <conn...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> blund...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> > That's cool. So why do you need the group?
>> >
>> > I going to stick by my statements - the XA culture and language has
>> > evolved into a self-preserving entity. I don't have a qualm with
>the
>> > goal of AA to get problem drinkers to stop drinking - I do have a
>> > problem when the price is a lifetime commitment to a support group.
>>
>> You seem more attached than most of the AAer's I know.
>
>Attached to what?
>
>> If you're so
>> devoted to independence and pragmatism why don't you just move on?
>
>I already have - I encountered this thread on alt.recovery.from-12-
>steps - you seem to have encountered it on alt.recovery.aa; it isn't my
>fault that it is cross-posted.
>
>> Fr.
>
>The Blunderbuss
>(-@------/
>(--------\
>//
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Whoah -- on my news client, *you* are the originator of this thread.
and of the crosspost.
Pete
Kimba
>Whoah -- on my news client, *you* are the originator of this thread.
>and of the crosspost.
Nope - it was that Polewka guy. He says he's one of us, but I'd be
willing to trade him for Sean <g>
Kimba
"You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did better."
---Maya Angelou
Reese
<AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
>Stopping abusive alcohol or drug intake when it's apparent it's become
>harmful makes sense. Becoming a member of a religious organization in the
>hope of changing a behavior when you can do that for yourself is just plain
>stoooooooopid.
Yep, it was only when I got real stupid that things started working
out.
>> Recovery from a volunteer program is absurd.
>
>Recovery from AA would be showing a level of intelligence that most children
>show an innate capacity for. Too often AA attendance is coerced which it
>should take responsibility for by virtue of it's signing slips. I won't
>hold my breath for that as AA and AA's don't take responsibility for
>anything much less their behavior.
Part of the Steps involves taking responsibility.
In fact, the Steps are about taking responsibility.
Reese
Reese
<AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
>
>
><blund...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:8rlkcc$131$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> "Moragan" <moragan1璉T鐠@theemeraldisle.com> wrote:
>
>> You poor fool. You just don't get it. Once you've stopped drinking,
>> that's it! There isn't anything more. You can get on with your life.
>> I feel like I owe humanity something, so I will spread the word here
>> for a little while - but we've got lives, Bub.
>
>They do seem to have great difficulty with this concept don't they? But of
>course if you ask them about it they'll deny a dependency on their 12 step
>group.
I've been to about a dozen meetings this year, so I guess I'm
dependent.
>They really can't envision living their lives without their
>"dependency on their 12 step group" errrr excuse me their fellowship.
>Which makes you wonder if the religion, errr excuse me, the "fellowship"
>isn't the whole purpose of the thing.
Some people think this, mistakenly. Some people on araa think this.
Reese
Pete
>In article <onjstskrh7g4ovgvh...@4ax.com>,
> Pe...@qis.net wrote:
>
>> Under certain circumstances I would not hesitate at all to send
>> someone to your side of the fence. Whatever it takes to give someone
>> a chance to live without the chains of an active addiction.
>
>Cool. I would do the same.
>
>> I won't
>> ever believe what you do, and most likely vice-versa. That doesn't
>> mean we can't deal when it's the right thing to do.
>
>You sound reasonable. I can see where some people might benefit from a
>group environment. There are some parts to AA literature that I find
>helpful. The things I abhor are the "cult-like" expansion and
>recruiting methods. The "powerless", "higher power", and "AA is the
>only way" messages are useless for me.
>
>Now, if AA, or some other group method, is the only way for an
>individual to kick his habit, then so be it - but trying to fit
>everyone into the same mold is flawed, at best.
>
>You would think that when we are dealing with such an important thing
>like this, that both sides could reach some kind of tolerance of the
>other side. But I think that they are all hell-bent on expansion.
>
>There seems to be problems on "both sides of the fence", as you say. I
>don't think Jack Trimpey feels that anyone should get involved in a
>group in order to recover. My feeling is that they should try their
>darndest to do it by themselves, because I think they will be a better
>human being in the end. However, if someone really needs a group(I
>suppose there are those that do), then so be it. Both sides have to
>stop trying to "score points", and think more about what is important
>for each individual, and for society as a whole.
>
>For those that have acheived sobriety with a 12-step group - I'm not
>going to go out of my way to actively try to talk them into going it
>alone. That is up to them.
>
>But remember - the original poster cross-posted this message to both
>newsgroups. Why? For what purpose? To stir up an argument? Was it a
>troll? I've made this point NUMEROUS times in this thread, and the
>AAers NEVER respond. Why hasn't even one AAer chastised this
>individual for his cross-post? So I submit to you that this is
>evidence of the expansionist bent of the typical a.r.aa'er. While
>a.r.f12s'ers aren't perfect, I don't see them trying to harrange the
>other side in their own newsgroup. In fact - I would flame anyone that
>did.
>
>I would like to see AAers stop using "candy-coated" deceptive
>recruiting methods in a.a.r.a - this would go a LONG way to changing
>the attitude that AA is a cult(part of the definition of a cult is that
>they use deceptive recruiting methods).
>
>> Pete
Hell, I'm in a quandary here -- there's reasonability (I like to
mangle and make up words -- a cross between reasonableness and
responsibility) here, so I'll crosspost and reply in kind.
Who the hell made the original post? Agent sees you as starting the
thread. It's a RE: and I can't find the original -- probably because
I saw it as a flame and deleted it.
There's a couple of people on both newsgroups that delight in stirring
up shit. There's a couple of servers out there that have both ng's
posts back to May and June. I pulled about 4000 of yours a month ago
to collect header information to compare with cancels, and noticed
something; Not all of the time, but better than half the time, some
inexperienced posters would pull a particularly amusing post from the
middle of an araa thread, post it on arf12 with both ngs in the
headers for you guys to play with, and things went from there. On
both ngs, there are 2 or 3 posters who do that deliberately. I don't
think any of these people have an investment on either side; they just
get off on stirring up shit. Pull the articles yourself --
tigger.scc.uni-weimar.de has loads of them, and it's free -- and take
a gander. It'll take time -- there's about 30,000 for araa -- and do
some analysis. You won't see canceled posts, tho, unless the usenet
white hats reposted them.
I can respect your viewpoint about recruitment. I came into AA just
as the DUI and prison mandated referrals were beginning. What I can
tell you is that damn near half the membership was for resisting that.
The WSO waffled and left it up to the "group conscience" of individual
meetings. What happened was a compromise; most groups signed slips in
open meetings and refused them in closed meetings. As an individual I
was then and am now opposed to slips; I won't sign them. I fervently
hope that the courts will nix any form of mandated AA, not because I
see AA as religious (which I don't), but because it works best when
it's voluntary. Hell, if the courts had told me I *had* to go to AA
before I *wanted* to, I probably would be in prison now, or dead. I
have always had an immense respect for the guys who said "put me in
jail then" (And I was in "let's make a deal" docket meetings for two
years and saw it happen). That's really living by your convictions,
benighted as they might be.
My early AA wasn't sugar coated. I grew up in a street meeting that
was 3/4 ex-cons, hardcases, and street people and 1/4 government
workers from the nearby State offices. 52 people died from drinking
that I knew to shake hands with in the first 5 years I was sober. I
knew AA didn't work for some people. But it did for a good number of
those who voluntarily bought in. And I will guarantee you that most
of those people didn't give much of a rat's ass for organized
religion, tho some did. And they couldn't survive the streets with
too much emphasis on real-world powerlessness, except when it came to
drinking. Yatata.
To a man or woman, the people I knew and was close to would have given
their eyeteeth to get sober by themselves. Most of them tried. I
did, way more than once. Count yourself blessed if you have;
something goes out of you traveling the road to AA that's real hard to
put back for some after they get there. Like anywhere else, some of
those people grab AA far beyond reason. Just like some in desperate
straits grab religion, or a political philosophy, or membership in a
gang (or a country club), or whatever. That's part of freaking human
nature. It's part of who those people are. Not my way, maybe, or
yours, but those people have just as much freaking right to live by
their beliefs as you and I do, and if it makes us a little lonelier,
that's the price we pay for our "independence". Fucking with peoples'
beliefs is a dangerous, dangerous thing.
But hell, that's just me talking. A 57 year old unreconstructed
hippie with a love for John Wayne and Louis Lamour westerns, happy
with that irreconcilable dichotomy, and freaking amazed and delighted
at approaching two and a half decades of sobriety.
Think about what's happened. You guys say you got pissed at a single
crossposter. So you come over here and essentially address the
*entire group* as a bunch of cultist assholes. You get some reflexive
responses from some people who are now also pissed off for being
attacked for no reason they can see, and the original crossposter's
probably laughing his or her ass off.
You want to flame the original poster to death, address him or her
directly, feel free. I won't stand in your way. If it's one of our
perennial flamers, I'll probably help. All attacking all of us,
attacking the core beliefs of some of us, does is serve that person's
purpose. And ditto for us to you.
Pete
blund...@my-deja.com
blund...@my-deja.com
Pe...@qis.net wrote:
> >> If you're so
> >> devoted to independence and pragmatism why don't you just move on?
> >
> >I already have - I encountered this thread on alt.recovery.from-12-
> >steps - you seem to have encountered it on alt.recovery.aa; it isn't
my
> >fault that it is cross-posted.
> Whoah -- on my news client, *you* are the originator of this thread.
> and of the crosspost.
Nope - David James Palewka was the originator of the cross-post.
Why? For what purpose? To stir up an argument? Was it a troll? I've
made this point NUMEROUS times in this thread, and you are the first
AAer to even respond(but with incorrect information). Why hasn't even
one AAer chastised this individual for his cross-post? So I submit to
you that this is evidence of the expansionist bent of the typical
a.r.aa'er. While a.r.f12s'ers aren't perfect, I don't see them trying
to harrange the other side in their own newsgroup. In fact - I would
flame anyone that did. We are going to get the last word on this, and
deservedly so, until an apology is made for the crosspost. Then we can
all go back to our respective corners.
You would think that when we are dealing with such an important thing
like this, that both sides could reach some kind of tolerance of the
other side. Whatever method works for a given individual is fine, as
long as they stop drinking. I think that both AA and RR are hell-bent
on expansion. However, I'm not a devout RRer, and I not sure anyone
else here on a.r.f12s is either. Nobody on this newsgroup really gives
a shit about "scoring points" for getting individuals involved
in "their" method. What I abhor are the deceptive recruiting
techniques that many AAers use - as well as their active antagonism,
which has been proved by the reluctance of ANY AAer to denounce the
original flame-bait.
Remove AA's To Email
Reese <blac...@weeklyworldnews.net> wrote in message
news:fvostsogc0hclkim5...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 22:09:11 GMT, "Remove AA's To Email"
> <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
>
> >Stopping abusive alcohol or drug intake when it's apparent it's become
> >harmful makes sense. Becoming a member of a religious organization in
the
> >hope of changing a behavior when you can do that for yourself is just
plain
> >stoooooooopid.
>
> Yep, it was only when I got real stupid that things started working
> out.
>
> >> Recovery from a volunteer program is absurd.
> >
> >Recovery from AA would be showing a level of intelligence that most
children
> >show an innate capacity for. Too often AA attendance is coerced which it
> >should take responsibility for by virtue of it's signing slips. I won't
> >hold my breath for that as AA and AA's don't take responsibility for
> >anything much less their behavior.
>
> Part of the Steps involves taking responsibility.
>
> In fact, the Steps are about taking responsibility.
avoidance. I mean if they were about responsibility the first one would
have been:
1. You've been drinking irresponsibly, Stop that!.
Period no need for any more steps. But no not bily w and the disease crew.
They went and plagiarized the conversion process from the oxford group for
your responsibility avoiding alcoholic little hearts. Because they figured
most of you would feel bad and want to avoid responsibility they gave you a
disease you can blame your behavior on.
So I'd have to say:
The steps are About taking Responsibility my backside.
Remove AA's To Email
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 23:22:56 GMT, "Remove AA's To Email"
> <AAArr...@AAhomeAA.com> wrote:
> >They do seem to have great difficulty with this concept don't they? But
of
> >course if you ask them about it they'll deny a dependency on their 12
step
> >group.
>
> I've been to about a dozen meetings this year, so I guess I'm
> dependent.
I don't know. Can you stop going all together and mantain your abstinance
or sobriety or what ever you want to call it? If you can no. If you can't
yes.
> >They really can't envision living their lives without their
> >"dependency on their 12 step group" errrr excuse me their fellowship.
> >Which makes you wonder if the religion, errr excuse me, the "fellowship"
> >isn't the whole purpose of the thing.
>
> Some people think this, mistakenly. Some people on araa think this.
12 steps - Oxford Group - Religion - Hello!
Remove AA's To Email
Pete <Pe...@qis.net> wrote in message
news:apusts8bvv6855h0i...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2000 00:09:44 GMT, blund...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Hell, I'm in a quandary here -- there's reasonability (I like to
> mangle and make up words --
We know most steppers have a propensity for this. Very few and far between
do I find one honest enough to admit it. So in that sense I've got to give
you your props.
> a cross between reasonableness and
> responsibility) here, so I'll crosspost and reply in kind.
Stop crossposting.
We really don't want to hear what you've got to say because in one way or
another we've heard it before. Bottom line if you're in AA or any of the
other A's then you're into denial of responsibility in favor of the
'disease' easier softer way. As a result, you really don't have anything
worth while to offer.
Hey I know it's difficult for you to understand, or accept, that eventually
most people reject the 12 step groups but trust me when I say this. Just
because you think you may have something interesting to share with us
doesn't mean we think it's either interesting, relevant or that we want to
hear it.
Moragan
> that's it! There isn't anything more. You can get on with your life.
> I feel like I owe humanity something, so I will spread the word here
> for a little while - but we've got lives, Bub.
>
>
> Yes. YOU go figure - then get yourself out of that cult, and start
> thinking for yourself.
>
> The Blunderbuss,
so just like the rest of the RR cultists, your not there for the addict who
comes after you looking for help.
Moragan
Craig S.
>You attend maybe 104 or 52 times a year and you don't consider this
>attending a lot of meetings? I think steppers truly do use different
>dictionaries then the rest of society if you think 104 or 52 meetings, for
>that matter, is anything less than a 'shit load' of meetings. And I mean
>that both literally and figuratively.
That is an interesting question. How about this one. If someone watches TV
for one hour each week, at the end of one year they will have watched 52
hours of TV. Over a year's time, would you consider what they had watched
as a 'shit load' of television programming? (Especially considering that
some people watch this much television in a *week*!) Suppose you spend 5
minutes on the toilet each day. At the end of a year, you would have spent
over 30 hours on the toilet. Do you consider that to be a 'shit load' of
shitting? There are 168 hours in a week. If I spend one hour each week in
a meeting, would you consider one out of 168, 0.595%, to be a shitload? It
appears that *you* might be using the funny dictionary.
Remove AA's To Email
Craig S. <cspu...@citynet.net> wrote in message
news:8rnjoo$38i$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Remove AA's To Email wrote in message ...
>
> >You attend maybe 104 or 52 times a year and you don't consider this
> >attending a lot of meetings? I think steppers truly do use different
> >dictionaries then the rest of society if you think 104 or 52 meetings,
for
> >that matter, is anything less than a 'shit load' of meetings. And I mean
> >that both literally and figuratively.
>
>
> That is an interesting question. How about this one. If someone watches
TV
> for one hour each week, at the end of one year they will have watched 52
> hours of TV. Over a year's time, would you consider what they had watched
> as a 'shit load' of television programming?
Yes. It's not a valid analogy though as the total commitment in terms of
time for attending a meeting is more like 2 to 2 and a half hours for each
meeting sometimes even more. So for 52 meetings you're commiting more like
130 hours of your time and for 104 meetings you're commtting more like 260
hours.
Whereas an hour of TV is just an hour of TV.
1 meeting does not equal 1 hour of time. To deny this is to deny AA's
tendency to ramble on and on in meetings also your time in getting ready for
the meeting driving to the meeting spreading the gospel after the meeting
and driving back from the meeting.
It appears "you" *are* using funny numbers.
Remove AA's To Email
Moragan <moragan1璉T鐠@theemeraldisle.com> wrote in message
news:8rkt15$u6$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> hey look the trimpy cultists are back.
Hey look the realists are back because a stupid stepper in an anti stepper
list couldn't control his disease long enough to prevent himself from cross
posting to this newsgroup.
> go figure.
ooops. go figure.
Remove AA's To Email
>
> so just like the rest of the RR cultists, your not there for the addict
who
> comes after you looking for help.
so just like the rest of the stepper idiots you can't figure out it's your
behavior change it and you don't need anyone else. Self sufficiencey baby!
hey it's all the rage now. ooops except for step meetings. Sorry. Too bad
soo sad.
> Moragan
Remove AA's To Email
Craig S. <cspu...@mtneer.net> wrote in message
news:8riqgh$j7s$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> <blund...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8riil7$ig5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > What they do need is to understand that they have to
> > commit to never drinking again - and be PERSONALLY responsible for
> > following thru with the commitment.
>
> That's what I've always understood AA to be about... one day at a time.
So
> I'm not sure where we differ in philosophy.
For starters your understanding of AA incorrect incorrect....and it goes
downhill from there.
Craig S.
>For starters your understanding of AA incorrect incorrect....and it goes
>downhill from there.
Whatever you say whatever you say. Just curious, how long has your decision
to just simply never drink again been in effect? Your answer might give you
a lot of credibility in my and other's eyes.
Craig S.
>
>> Just curious, how long has your decision
>> to just simply never drink again been in effect?
>
>Knowing this benefits you how?
>Come on here. You're not dealing with a dim wit stepper just now.
> We both know that's bullshit no matter what I had answered above you would
>have looked for a hole to poke in it.
Ah, yeah, that's kind of what I thought. I've met a lot of folks who have
made a *permanent* decision to just not drink that haven't been able to rack
up much clean time. Why did you avoid that question? I mean if you were
able to say, "I was a hopeless alcoholic, but twenty years ago I made a
decision to give up drinking permanently and haven't had a drink since and
haven't found any need for AA the whole time," then I would surely think you
might have just stumbled onto something that would work for a lot of people
who have problems with the cult aspects of AA or the God bit or whatever.
You just might have a few helpful tricks you could share with folks having
difficulty staying sober by the AA method. But if you were to say, "I got
sober in AA last year, but I saw pretty quickly that it was a bunch of
bullshit so now I'm just doing it on my own," then I would most likely view
the *permanence* of your decision with a bit more skepticism.
>You don't understand AA and you're a member so why should people listen to
>you.
1) I don't expect anyone to listen to me who has no desire to do so.
2) Who said I was a member of AA?
3) Some people don't need me to poke holes because they do such a fine job
on their own.