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Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
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Crus...@nomail.com
May 12, 2013, 12:09:17 AM5/12/13
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http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-rehabs-cults-abuse8851?page=all
Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
A small but significant number of 12-step groups�from AA to addiction
treatment centers�turn into dangerous cults. How can working the program
take a wrong turn?
By Maia Szalavitz
08/27/12
12-step programs�with their clich�d language, frequent meetings and
religious mien�are cults. So say many critics. But in fact, the
traditions of AA, NA and the other As are intentionally structured to
prevent their members from crossing that line. Nonetheless, there is a
reliable way to use the steps to create a full-fledged destructive cult.
Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups, according to
those who study groups that have had disastrous outcomes, like Jim
Jones� People�s Temple, which ended in mass member suicide, and the
Branch Davidians, which ended in a fiery siege by federal agents.
Instead, cults are self-enclosed organizations that use a well-defined
set of coercive persuasion tactics.
These typically include isolating people physically and emotionally from
friends and family, breaking them down emotionally and taking total
control over their environment, movement and finances. Because these
procedures can also characterize rehab, residential treatment itself
without proper oversight carries a risk for creating cultlike behavior.
However, since 12-step programs in the community aren�t residential,
can�t physically isolate people or take their life savings�and because
they are formally leaderless�they have little risk of becoming the next
Jonestown, Guyana, or Waco, Texas.
But the repeated development of cults or near-cults�from Synanon to
Straight Inc. to today�s Washington, DC, Midtown Group�based on the
steps is not coincidental. The reason is a toxic compound created when
AA�s voluntary steps are twisted so that they can be imposed by force,
especially in settings where people cannot escape. Chuck Dederich, the
founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the power of this recipe
for subjugating people and creating followers. Indeed, Synanon was the
model for every �therapeutic community� (TC) in the US, including
mainstream leaders like Phoenix House and Daytop.
Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
charismatic leader was dead drunk.
A toxic compound is created when AA�s voluntary steps are imposed by
force.
By then, however, the Synanon model had already spread across America
and around the world. In addition to Phoenix House and Daytop, the best
known include Delancey Street, Walden House, Gaudenzia, Gateway House,
Marathon House, Odyssey House, Samaritan Village, Amity, CEDU, the Seed
and Straight Inc.
Following Synanon, these TC programs are or were residential, typically
lasting from 90 days to 18 months. Originally, the idea was to break
initiates through strict rules and daily humiliation and confrontation,
and then rebuild them as they work their way up a structured hierarchy.
To rise through the levels toward graduation, participants have to
demonstrate compliance by imposing the rules on others and emotionally
attacking their fellows to help break them. These days, many TCs have
abandoned the marathon attack therapy sessions and tried to reduce or
eliminate the use of humiliation�but they retain the strict rules and
hierarchical systems.
So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
inspire cult formation?
Step 1: It starts with the first step. Voluntarily admitting you are
powerless is relatively harmless (although there�s some evidence that
this belief as part of the disease model of addiction is linked with
worsening relapse). By contrast, however, being forced into a position
of absolute powerlessness is what defines a traumatic experience, and so
it can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and related
psychological problems, like depression. And traumatizing people is an
excellent way to break their will and turn them into compliant
followers.
Research into PTSD repeatedly confirms that at the heart of all trauma
is the feeling of being completely vulnerable and out-of-control in a
frightening situation, in a word, powerless. Whether well-intentioned or
not, any program with the capacity to disempower participants by
blocking their contact with the outside world and controlling their
access to food, sleep and social support is potentially dangerous. This
dynamic�in connection with the way power itself corrupts staff�explains
why institutions ranging from orphanages to hospitals to prisons, where
vulnerable people are subject to total control by others, constantly
have abuse scandals and why they need to be subject to intense
oversight.
Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
worse. Again, voluntarily surrendering to a �higher power� can feel
healing for many�but being forced to submit to human beings who make
themselves and their program into your higher power is far less benign.
Believing that surrendering your will and even your life to the
leadership is the only path to recovery results in overwhelming
vulnerability.
Not only is this dangerous for the victims, but it is also risky for
leaders who are convinced that they �know best� and their program is so
effective that they are justified in using any means necessary to �help�
people. Once staff embrace the belief that breaking people to fix them
is acceptable, once they �know� that they are absolutely righteous even
when being emotionally cruel, the corrupting nature of this total power
is intensified.
This elevation of staff and dehumanization of patients is the opposite
of treating people with dignity and respect: the word of the �healers�
is law and those in need of healing are powerless.
At rehabs, for example, when staff believe that they have all the
answers, including which patients are �in denial� or �faking� or lying
or, for that matter, telling the truth, there is a great potential for
serious health and psychiatric complaints to be ignored. This can
have�and has had, in dozens of cases�fatal consequences for those who
are physically detained in programs. It also allows power to run amuck.
Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands for the confession of sins
and for an ongoing moral inventory and you have an additional method of
controlling people. Most religious cults focus on confession because
knowing members� darkest desires and most shameful secrets increases the
power of the leaders. Not only can frequent confessions enable the
blackmail dissenters, but they can also train participants to focus so
relentlessly on their own failings that they have no energy left for
criticism or resistance of the group itself.
Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
when imposed by force, humility becomes humiliation and defects of
character become weak spots to attack. Public humiliation and emotional
barrages aimed at humbling people can be traumatizing. When employed
explicitly to break someone, such attempts to �remove� a person�s
�shortcomings� makes him or her even more vulnerable to the leaders�
influence.
Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation can
exacerbate conditions like depression. While voluntary meditation is
liberating, coercive isolation in imposed silence is known to quite
literally drive people crazy. The repetition of prayer can also be used
to create trancelike states.
Step 12: Topping off the process is the demand to �carry the message� to
others. Social psychology research shows that trying to convert other
people to your perspective is only rarely successful in attracting
followers� but it is incredibly good at convincing the person doing the
proselytizing that their own cause is correct. Even when people are made
to argue a side with which they disagree, studies show that with enough
repetition they often come to believe what they�re saying.
One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy are
over-represented. These people enjoy wielding power over others and
quickly learn to use the hierarchy and the emotional attacks to their
advantage. The most charismatic rise to the top and become the
leadership, often being assigned to run new branches of the program or
leaving to open dangerous programs of their own.
This problem even occurred in the US government's Lexington, Kentucky,
narcotics farm, which was the first federal attempt to provide addiction
treatment. When it modeled one of its programs on Synanon in the 1970s,
the "inmates running the asylum" who were made staffers got so
out-of-control in their abuses of power�including sexual abuse�that the
administration had to call in the FBI and abandon the program.
This destructive pattern has recurred with grim frequency. The Elan
School�notorious for its violence, such as putting teen residents who
disagreed with the leaders in a simulated boxing ring with fresh
opponents until they surrendered�was founded by a graduate of Daytop in
its early days of intensive confrontation.
Elan was open from 1970 to 2011 and, in cult-like fashion, created true
believers who attacked critics relentlessly and tried to hide dangerous
practices rather than improving them as a legitimate healthcare facility
would.
The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
to control others via coercive tactics.
Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993, forced
youths to restrain one another on the floor without bathroom breaks
until they wet or soiled themselves, gagged them with Kotex and
practiced other intense humiliation. The chain of rehabs repeatedly
ignored attempts by regulators to reform its practices and tried to
conceal them from authorities. It claims to have �treated� 50,000 teens
and also left behind many supporters who are so fervent in their belief
that the program was right that they cut family members who disagreed
out of their lives forever.
Straight led to New Jersey�s KIDS, which was founded in 1984 by its
national clinical director, Virgil Miller Newton. It was at least as
brutal. When KIDS finally lost its Medicaid funding in 1998, staff
actually went underground and secretly continued the �treatment�
(including beatings, restraint, sleep and food deprivation) without a
license until at least 2001. Following its leader in seeing itself as
above the law, it met every criteria necessary to define a cult.
Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
that 12-step programs themselves�or every rehab that requires working
the steps�are cults. But the evidence shows that the steps provide an
unfortunate guide for unethical people who want to control others via
coercive tactics.
Forcing these spiritual principles that were designed to be voluntary on
unwilling people in recovery always carries the risk of descending into
cultish behavior. Research demonstrates that such coercion can backfire,
worsening addiction and that kinder, gentler methods that respect
self-determination are more effective.
If someone chooses to climb Mount Everest and face dauntingly cold
temperatures, sleep and food limitations, isolation and painful levels
of exertion under low oxygen conditions, the challenge�although
dangerous�can be an occasion for personal growth. Forcing someone to
endure that situation, in contrast, is not only a form of torture but as
likely to produce trauma as to lead to enlightenment.
That some people find meaning in triumphing over great suffering does
not mean that deliberately causing pain is therapeutic or acceptable.
The addiction field needs some humility of its own. It must recognize
that voluntary actions and forced ones have an entirely different
psychology. Even the physiology of being out of control is different
from that of being on top: studies show that the same degree and kind of
stress can either damage your immune system or have no effect at all,
depending on whether you feel in control.
The 12 steps truly are for people who want them, not for those who we
limited humans (who are assuredly not higher powers) believe need
them�unless your goal is to start a cult. In that case, study up!
Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
A small but significant number of 12-step groups�from AA to addiction
treatment centers�turn into dangerous cults. How can working the program
take a wrong turn?
By Maia Szalavitz
08/27/12
12-step programs�with their clich�d language, frequent meetings and
religious mien�are cults. So say many critics. But in fact, the
traditions of AA, NA and the other As are intentionally structured to
prevent their members from crossing that line. Nonetheless, there is a
reliable way to use the steps to create a full-fledged destructive cult.
Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups, according to
those who study groups that have had disastrous outcomes, like Jim
Jones� People�s Temple, which ended in mass member suicide, and the
Branch Davidians, which ended in a fiery siege by federal agents.
Instead, cults are self-enclosed organizations that use a well-defined
set of coercive persuasion tactics.
These typically include isolating people physically and emotionally from
friends and family, breaking them down emotionally and taking total
control over their environment, movement and finances. Because these
procedures can also characterize rehab, residential treatment itself
without proper oversight carries a risk for creating cultlike behavior.
However, since 12-step programs in the community aren�t residential,
can�t physically isolate people or take their life savings�and because
they are formally leaderless�they have little risk of becoming the next
Jonestown, Guyana, or Waco, Texas.
But the repeated development of cults or near-cults�from Synanon to
Straight Inc. to today�s Washington, DC, Midtown Group�based on the
steps is not coincidental. The reason is a toxic compound created when
AA�s voluntary steps are twisted so that they can be imposed by force,
especially in settings where people cannot escape. Chuck Dederich, the
founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the power of this recipe
for subjugating people and creating followers. Indeed, Synanon was the
model for every �therapeutic community� (TC) in the US, including
mainstream leaders like Phoenix House and Daytop.
Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
charismatic leader was dead drunk.
A toxic compound is created when AA�s voluntary steps are imposed by
force.
By then, however, the Synanon model had already spread across America
and around the world. In addition to Phoenix House and Daytop, the best
known include Delancey Street, Walden House, Gaudenzia, Gateway House,
Marathon House, Odyssey House, Samaritan Village, Amity, CEDU, the Seed
and Straight Inc.
Following Synanon, these TC programs are or were residential, typically
lasting from 90 days to 18 months. Originally, the idea was to break
initiates through strict rules and daily humiliation and confrontation,
and then rebuild them as they work their way up a structured hierarchy.
To rise through the levels toward graduation, participants have to
demonstrate compliance by imposing the rules on others and emotionally
attacking their fellows to help break them. These days, many TCs have
abandoned the marathon attack therapy sessions and tried to reduce or
eliminate the use of humiliation�but they retain the strict rules and
hierarchical systems.
So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
inspire cult formation?
Step 1: It starts with the first step. Voluntarily admitting you are
powerless is relatively harmless (although there�s some evidence that
this belief as part of the disease model of addiction is linked with
worsening relapse). By contrast, however, being forced into a position
of absolute powerlessness is what defines a traumatic experience, and so
it can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and related
psychological problems, like depression. And traumatizing people is an
excellent way to break their will and turn them into compliant
followers.
Research into PTSD repeatedly confirms that at the heart of all trauma
is the feeling of being completely vulnerable and out-of-control in a
frightening situation, in a word, powerless. Whether well-intentioned or
not, any program with the capacity to disempower participants by
blocking their contact with the outside world and controlling their
access to food, sleep and social support is potentially dangerous. This
dynamic�in connection with the way power itself corrupts staff�explains
why institutions ranging from orphanages to hospitals to prisons, where
vulnerable people are subject to total control by others, constantly
have abuse scandals and why they need to be subject to intense
oversight.
Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
worse. Again, voluntarily surrendering to a �higher power� can feel
healing for many�but being forced to submit to human beings who make
themselves and their program into your higher power is far less benign.
Believing that surrendering your will and even your life to the
leadership is the only path to recovery results in overwhelming
vulnerability.
Not only is this dangerous for the victims, but it is also risky for
leaders who are convinced that they �know best� and their program is so
effective that they are justified in using any means necessary to �help�
people. Once staff embrace the belief that breaking people to fix them
is acceptable, once they �know� that they are absolutely righteous even
when being emotionally cruel, the corrupting nature of this total power
is intensified.
This elevation of staff and dehumanization of patients is the opposite
of treating people with dignity and respect: the word of the �healers�
is law and those in need of healing are powerless.
At rehabs, for example, when staff believe that they have all the
answers, including which patients are �in denial� or �faking� or lying
or, for that matter, telling the truth, there is a great potential for
serious health and psychiatric complaints to be ignored. This can
have�and has had, in dozens of cases�fatal consequences for those who
are physically detained in programs. It also allows power to run amuck.
Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands for the confession of sins
and for an ongoing moral inventory and you have an additional method of
controlling people. Most religious cults focus on confession because
knowing members� darkest desires and most shameful secrets increases the
power of the leaders. Not only can frequent confessions enable the
blackmail dissenters, but they can also train participants to focus so
relentlessly on their own failings that they have no energy left for
criticism or resistance of the group itself.
Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
when imposed by force, humility becomes humiliation and defects of
character become weak spots to attack. Public humiliation and emotional
barrages aimed at humbling people can be traumatizing. When employed
explicitly to break someone, such attempts to �remove� a person�s
�shortcomings� makes him or her even more vulnerable to the leaders�
influence.
Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation can
exacerbate conditions like depression. While voluntary meditation is
liberating, coercive isolation in imposed silence is known to quite
literally drive people crazy. The repetition of prayer can also be used
to create trancelike states.
Step 12: Topping off the process is the demand to �carry the message� to
others. Social psychology research shows that trying to convert other
people to your perspective is only rarely successful in attracting
followers� but it is incredibly good at convincing the person doing the
proselytizing that their own cause is correct. Even when people are made
to argue a side with which they disagree, studies show that with enough
repetition they often come to believe what they�re saying.
One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy are
over-represented. These people enjoy wielding power over others and
quickly learn to use the hierarchy and the emotional attacks to their
advantage. The most charismatic rise to the top and become the
leadership, often being assigned to run new branches of the program or
leaving to open dangerous programs of their own.
This problem even occurred in the US government's Lexington, Kentucky,
narcotics farm, which was the first federal attempt to provide addiction
treatment. When it modeled one of its programs on Synanon in the 1970s,
the "inmates running the asylum" who were made staffers got so
out-of-control in their abuses of power�including sexual abuse�that the
administration had to call in the FBI and abandon the program.
This destructive pattern has recurred with grim frequency. The Elan
School�notorious for its violence, such as putting teen residents who
disagreed with the leaders in a simulated boxing ring with fresh
opponents until they surrendered�was founded by a graduate of Daytop in
its early days of intensive confrontation.
Elan was open from 1970 to 2011 and, in cult-like fashion, created true
believers who attacked critics relentlessly and tried to hide dangerous
practices rather than improving them as a legitimate healthcare facility
would.
The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
to control others via coercive tactics.
Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993, forced
youths to restrain one another on the floor without bathroom breaks
until they wet or soiled themselves, gagged them with Kotex and
practiced other intense humiliation. The chain of rehabs repeatedly
ignored attempts by regulators to reform its practices and tried to
conceal them from authorities. It claims to have �treated� 50,000 teens
and also left behind many supporters who are so fervent in their belief
that the program was right that they cut family members who disagreed
out of their lives forever.
Straight led to New Jersey�s KIDS, which was founded in 1984 by its
national clinical director, Virgil Miller Newton. It was at least as
brutal. When KIDS finally lost its Medicaid funding in 1998, staff
actually went underground and secretly continued the �treatment�
(including beatings, restraint, sleep and food deprivation) without a
license until at least 2001. Following its leader in seeing itself as
above the law, it met every criteria necessary to define a cult.
Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
that 12-step programs themselves�or every rehab that requires working
the steps�are cults. But the evidence shows that the steps provide an
unfortunate guide for unethical people who want to control others via
coercive tactics.
Forcing these spiritual principles that were designed to be voluntary on
unwilling people in recovery always carries the risk of descending into
cultish behavior. Research demonstrates that such coercion can backfire,
worsening addiction and that kinder, gentler methods that respect
self-determination are more effective.
If someone chooses to climb Mount Everest and face dauntingly cold
temperatures, sleep and food limitations, isolation and painful levels
of exertion under low oxygen conditions, the challenge�although
dangerous�can be an occasion for personal growth. Forcing someone to
endure that situation, in contrast, is not only a form of torture but as
likely to produce trauma as to lead to enlightenment.
That some people find meaning in triumphing over great suffering does
not mean that deliberately causing pain is therapeutic or acceptable.
The addiction field needs some humility of its own. It must recognize
that voluntary actions and forced ones have an entirely different
psychology. Even the physiology of being out of control is different
from that of being on top: studies show that the same degree and kind of
stress can either damage your immune system or have no effect at all,
depending on whether you feel in control.
The 12 steps truly are for people who want them, not for those who we
limited humans (who are assuredly not higher powers) believe need
them�unless your goal is to start a cult. In that case, study up!
Socrates
May 12, 2013, 3:30:39 PM5/12/13
to
Crush-AA the wannabe cult leader quoted poor Maia Szalavitz thus:
> http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-rehabs-cults-abuse8851?page=all
> Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
> A small but significant number of 12-step groups—from AA to addiction
> treatment centers—turn into dangerous cults. How can working the program
> take a wrong turn?
Small yet significant? Dangerous cults? What is the justification for
lumping lunatics like James Jones, the Branch Davidians, Synanon,
Florida-based Straight Inc., New Jersey’s KIDS, etc., and "deliberately
causing pain" with AA or other voluntary step programs?
> 12-step programs—with their clichéd language, frequent meetings and
> Nonetheless, there is a reliable way to use the steps to create a
> full-fledged destructive cult.
Yes, and the ways precede Bill W. by a few centuries.
> Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups. Cults are
fellowships.
> However, since 12-step programs in the community aren’t residential,
> can’t physically isolate people or take their life savings—and because
> they are formally leaderless—they have little risk of becoming the next
> Jonestown, Guyana, or Waco, Texas.
Thanks for getting around to clearing that up. So..., for this article
they were lumped together for no logical reason.
> The reason is a toxic compound created when AA’s voluntary steps are
> twisted so that they can be imposed by force, especially in settings
> where people cannot escape.
In other words, not at an AA meeting where people come and go as they
please and members routinely tell their powerless (albeit sometimes
egocentric) sponsors to fuck off.
>Chuck Dederich, the founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the
> power of this recipe for subjugatingpeople and creating followers.
Again, not really the first or most notable. Have you heard of
Scientology? How about the Aum Shinrikyo Society? Order of the Solar
Temple? The Unification Church? Truth be told, every modern Christian
sect has a hierarchical structure which makes them more cult like than AA.
> Indeed, Synanon was the model for every“therapeutic community” (TC)
> in the US, including mainstream leaderslike Phoenix House and Daytop.
Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary steps programs.
> Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
> heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
> couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
> notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
> lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
> members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
> conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
> charismatic leader was dead drunk.
Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary step programs.
> A toxic compound is created when AA’s voluntary steps are imposed by
> force.
Force?
Any steps that are not voluntary are not part of AA or other voluntary
step programs.
<snip more unrelated to AA and voluntary step programs cult minutia>
> So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
> inspire cult formation?
The inspiration for cults is a by-product of human nature.
> Step 1: It starts with
<snip psychobabble>
> Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
> worse.
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands
Demands?
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
> when imposed by force
By force?
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
> sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation
Forced meditation?
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> Step 12: Topping off the process is the demand to “carry the message”
Demand?
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
> inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
> antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy
<snip more unrelated to AA or 12 step programs psychobabble>
> The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
> to control others via coercive tactics.
Unethical people who want to control others via coercive tactics are
nothing new. Where there's a will, there's a way. Politics is much
more effective than volunteer step programs.
> Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993
<snip irrelevant cult synopsis>
> Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
> into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
> that 12-step programs themselves—or every rehab that requires working
> the steps—are cults.
Thanks for *finally* clearing that up. One could have (like Crush-AA)
easily gotten confused.
> But
Uh oh..., did anyone else here, hear the old adage that when a sentence
starts with "but" it means you can ignore what preceded it?
> the evidence shows that the steps provide an unfortunate guide for
> unethical people who want to control others via coercive tactics.
Life's a bitch, filled with unethical control freaks. Adapt or suffer.
> Forcing these spiritual principles
Forcing?
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> If someone chooses to climb Mount Everest and face dauntingly cold
> temperatures
<snip ludicrous torture analogy>
> That some people find meaning in triumphing over great suffering does
> not mean that deliberately causing pain is therapeutic or acceptable.
> The addiction field needs some humility of its own. It must recognize
> that voluntary actions and forced ones have an entirely different
> psychology.
Yes, "voluntary" and "forced" actions certainly do have "an entirely
different psychology." So much so, in fact, that if one wanted to write
a cogent analysis of them, the /scholarly/ approach would be to do it
separately.
<snip remaining psychobabble and redundancy>
For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
> http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-rehabs-cults-abuse8851?page=all
> Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
> A small but significant number of 12-step groups—from AA to addiction
> treatment centers—turn into dangerous cults. How can working the program
> take a wrong turn?
lumping lunatics like James Jones, the Branch Davidians, Synanon,
Florida-based Straight Inc., New Jersey’s KIDS, etc., and "deliberately
causing pain" with AA or other voluntary step programs?
> 12-step programs—with their clichéd language, frequent meetings and
> religious mien—are cults. So say many critics. But in fact, the
> traditions of AA, NA and the other As are intentionally structured to
> prevent their members from crossing that line.
Thanks for clearing that up.
> traditions of AA, NA and the other As are intentionally structured to
> prevent their members from crossing that line.
> Nonetheless, there is a reliable way to use the steps to create a
> full-fledged destructive cult.
> Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups. Cults are
> self-enclosed organizations that use a well-defined set of coercive
> persuasion tactics.
In other words, nothing like AA or or volunteer step programs and
> persuasion tactics.
fellowships.
> However, since 12-step programs in the community aren’t residential,
> can’t physically isolate people or take their life savings—and because
> they are formally leaderless—they have little risk of becoming the next
> Jonestown, Guyana, or Waco, Texas.
they were lumped together for no logical reason.
> The reason is a toxic compound created when AA’s voluntary steps are
> twisted so that they can be imposed by force, especially in settings
> where people cannot escape.
please and members routinely tell their powerless (albeit sometimes
egocentric) sponsors to fuck off.
>Chuck Dederich, the founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the
> power of this recipe for subjugatingpeople and creating followers.
Scientology? How about the Aum Shinrikyo Society? Order of the Solar
Temple? The Unification Church? Truth be told, every modern Christian
sect has a hierarchical structure which makes them more cult like than AA.
> Indeed, Synanon was the model for every“therapeutic community” (TC)
> in the US, including mainstream leaderslike Phoenix House and Daytop.
> Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
> heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
> couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
> notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
> lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
> members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
> conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
> charismatic leader was dead drunk.
> A toxic compound is created when AA’s voluntary steps are imposed by
> force.
Any steps that are not voluntary are not part of AA or other voluntary
step programs.
<snip more unrelated to AA and voluntary step programs cult minutia>
> So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
> inspire cult formation?
> Step 1: It starts with
> Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
> worse.
> Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
> when imposed by force
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
> sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> Step 12: Topping off the process is the demand to “carry the message”
Demand?
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
> inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
> antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy
> The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
> to control others via coercive tactics.
nothing new. Where there's a will, there's a way. Politics is much
more effective than volunteer step programs.
> Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993
> Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
> into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
> that 12-step programs themselves—or every rehab that requires working
> the steps—are cults.
easily gotten confused.
> But
Uh oh..., did anyone else here, hear the old adage that when a sentence
starts with "but" it means you can ignore what preceded it?
> the evidence shows that the steps provide an unfortunate guide for
> unethical people who want to control others via coercive tactics.
> Forcing these spiritual principles
Forcing?
<snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
> If someone chooses to climb Mount Everest and face dauntingly cold
> temperatures
> That some people find meaning in triumphing over great suffering does
> not mean that deliberately causing pain is therapeutic or acceptable.
> The addiction field needs some humility of its own. It must recognize
> that voluntary actions and forced ones have an entirely different
> psychology.
different psychology." So much so, in fact, that if one wanted to write
a cogent analysis of them, the /scholarly/ approach would be to do it
separately.
<snip remaining psychobabble and redundancy>
For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
Ted L.
May 12, 2013, 3:47:57 PM5/12/13
to
On 5/12/13 2:30 PM, Socrates wrote:
> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
That sounds generous...
> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
--
Ted L.
Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini.
Tommy
May 12, 2013, 4:01:49 PM5/12/13
to
"Socrates" <empir...@wing-it.net> wrote in message
news:kmoqel$nh1$1...@dont-email.me...
> <snip remaining psychobabble and redundancy>
> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
I'll give you one thing Frank, you've got stamina :-)
Thats if you read the whole thing.
One thing I've learned, if its crossposted, and/or has cult/12steps/AA
haha and if its longer than 15 or more lines - - - - ffuhfuhforget it :-))
Cheers
Tommy
news:kmoqel$nh1$1...@dont-email.me...
> <snip remaining psychobabble and redundancy>
> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
Thats if you read the whole thing.
One thing I've learned, if its crossposted, and/or has cult/12steps/AA
haha and if its longer than 15 or more lines - - - - ffuhfuhforget it :-))
Cheers
Tommy
Socrates
May 12, 2013, 4:11:19 PM5/12/13
to
On 5/12/2013 12:47 PM, Ted L. wrote:
> On 5/12/13 2:30 PM, Socrates wrote:
>> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
>
> That sounds generous...
LOL, Truth be told I changed it from a D at the last minute. Mostly
> On 5/12/13 2:30 PM, Socrates wrote:
>> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
>
> That sounds generous...
because I figured she didn't write it for newsgroups and likely didn't
anticipate or approve of some wannabe cult leader with a reading
comprehension deficit disorder using it because he mistakenly thought it
would promote his own little cult of victim/whiners.
"Man is always prey to his truths. Once he has admitted them, he cannot
free himself from them."
Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus
Fred Exley
May 12, 2013, 6:47:42 PM5/12/13
to
On 5/12/13 3:30 PM, Socrates wrote:
> Crush-AA the wannabe cult leader quoted poor Maia Szalavitz thus:
>
>> http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-rehabs-cults-abuse8851?page=all
>
>> Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
>> A small but significant number of 12-step groups�from AA to addiction
> Crush-AA the wannabe cult leader quoted poor Maia Szalavitz thus:
>
>> http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-rehabs-cults-abuse8851?page=all
>
>> Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
>> treatment centers�turn into dangerous cults. How can working the program
>> take a wrong turn?
>
> Small yet significant? Dangerous cults? What is the justification for
> lumping lunatics like James Jones, the Branch Davidians, Synanon,
> Florida-based Straight Inc., New Jersey�s KIDS, etc., and "deliberately
>
> Small yet significant? Dangerous cults? What is the justification for
> lumping lunatics like James Jones, the Branch Davidians, Synanon,
> causing pain" with AA or other voluntary step programs?
>
>> 12-step programs�with their clich�d language, frequent meetings and
>
>> religious mien�are cults. So say many critics. But in fact, the
>> traditions of AA, NA and the other As are intentionally structured to
>> prevent their members from crossing that line.
>
> Thanks for clearing that up.
>
>> Nonetheless, there is a reliable way to use the steps to create a
>> full-fledged destructive cult.
>
> Yes, and the ways precede Bill W. by a few centuries.
>
>> Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups. Cults are
>> self-enclosed organizations that use a well-defined set of coercive
>> persuasion tactics.
>
> In other words, nothing like AA or or volunteer step programs and
> fellowships.
>
>> However, since 12-step programs in the community aren�t residential,
>> prevent their members from crossing that line.
>
> Thanks for clearing that up.
>
>> Nonetheless, there is a reliable way to use the steps to create a
>> full-fledged destructive cult.
>
> Yes, and the ways precede Bill W. by a few centuries.
>
>> Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups. Cults are
>> self-enclosed organizations that use a well-defined set of coercive
>> persuasion tactics.
>
> In other words, nothing like AA or or volunteer step programs and
> fellowships.
>
>> can�t physically isolate people or take their life savings�and because
>> they are formally leaderless�they have little risk of becoming the next
>> Jonestown, Guyana, or Waco, Texas.
>
> Thanks for getting around to clearing that up. So..., for this article
> they were lumped together for no logical reason.
>
>> The reason is a toxic compound created when AA�s voluntary steps are
>
> Thanks for getting around to clearing that up. So..., for this article
> they were lumped together for no logical reason.
>
>> twisted so that they can be imposed by force, especially in settings
>> where people cannot escape.
>
> In other words, not at an AA meeting where people come and go as they
> please and members routinely tell their powerless (albeit sometimes
> egocentric) sponsors to fuck off.
>
>> Chuck Dederich, the founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the
>> power of this recipe for subjugatingpeople and creating followers.
>
> Again, not really the first or most notable. Have you heard of
> Scientology? How about the Aum Shinrikyo Society? Order of the Solar
> Temple? The Unification Church? Truth be told, every modern Christian
> sect has a hierarchical structure which makes them more cult like than AA.
>
>> Indeed, Synanon was the model for every�therapeutic community� (TC)
>> where people cannot escape.
>
> In other words, not at an AA meeting where people come and go as they
> please and members routinely tell their powerless (albeit sometimes
> egocentric) sponsors to fuck off.
>
>> Chuck Dederich, the founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the
>> power of this recipe for subjugatingpeople and creating followers.
>
> Again, not really the first or most notable. Have you heard of
> Scientology? How about the Aum Shinrikyo Society? Order of the Solar
> Temple? The Unification Church? Truth be told, every modern Christian
> sect has a hierarchical structure which makes them more cult like than AA.
>
>> in the US, including mainstream leaderslike Phoenix House and Daytop.
>
> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary steps programs.
>
>> Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
>> heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
>> couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
>> notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
>> lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
>> members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
>> conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
>> charismatic leader was dead drunk.
>
> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary step programs.
>
>> A toxic compound is created when AA�s voluntary steps are imposed by
>
> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary steps programs.
>
>> Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
>> heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
>> couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
>> notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
>> lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
>> members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
>> conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
>> charismatic leader was dead drunk.
>
> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary step programs.
>
>> force.
>
> Force?
> Any steps that are not voluntary are not part of AA or other voluntary
> step programs.
>
> <snip more unrelated to AA and voluntary step programs cult minutia>
>
>> So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
>> inspire cult formation?
>
> The inspiration for cults is a by-product of human nature.
>
>> Step 1: It starts with
>
> <snip psychobabble>
>
>> Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
>> worse.
>
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands
>
> Demands?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
>> when imposed by force
>
> By force?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
>> sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation
>
> Forced meditation?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> Step 12: Topping off the process is the demand to �carry the message�
>
> Force?
> Any steps that are not voluntary are not part of AA or other voluntary
> step programs.
>
> <snip more unrelated to AA and voluntary step programs cult minutia>
>
>> So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
>> inspire cult formation?
>
> The inspiration for cults is a by-product of human nature.
>
>> Step 1: It starts with
>
> <snip psychobabble>
>
>> Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
>> worse.
>
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands
>
> Demands?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
>> when imposed by force
>
> By force?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
>> sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation
>
> Forced meditation?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>
> Demand?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
>> inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
>> antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy
>
> <snip more unrelated to AA or 12 step programs psychobabble>
>
>> The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
>> to control others via coercive tactics.
>
> Unethical people who want to control others via coercive tactics are
> nothing new. Where there's a will, there's a way. Politics is much
> more effective than volunteer step programs.
>
>> Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993
>
> <snip irrelevant cult synopsis>
>
>> Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
>> into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
>> that 12-step programs themselves�or every rehab that requires working
> Demand?
> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>
>> One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
>> inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
>> antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy
>
> <snip more unrelated to AA or 12 step programs psychobabble>
>
>> The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
>> to control others via coercive tactics.
>
> Unethical people who want to control others via coercive tactics are
> nothing new. Where there's a will, there's a way. Politics is much
> more effective than volunteer step programs.
>
>> Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993
>
> <snip irrelevant cult synopsis>
>
>> Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
>> into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
>> the steps�are cults.
SteveNY opined:
The author of this article must have intended to write a piece on humor
and/or irony. Otherwise, it's several absurdities lead one to believe
that it is a piece not to be taken seriously. That is, except by
conspiracy theorists, fanatics or wannabe cult leaders.
Socrates
May 12, 2013, 7:22:33 PM5/12/13
to
On 5/12/2013 3:47 PM, Fred Exley wrote:
> On 5/12/13 3:30 PM, Socrates wrote:
>> Crush-AA the wannabe cult leader quoted poor Maia Szalavitz thus:
>>
>>> http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-rehabs-cults-abuse8851?page=all
>>
>>> Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
>>> A small but significant number of 12-step groups—from AA to addiction
> On 5/12/13 3:30 PM, Socrates wrote:
>> Crush-AA the wannabe cult leader quoted poor Maia Szalavitz thus:
>>
>>> http://www.thefix.com/content/12-steps-rehabs-cults-abuse8851?page=all
>>
>>> Cult Culture and the 12 Steps
>>> treatment centers—turn into dangerous cults. How can working the program
>>> take a wrong turn?
>>
>> Small yet significant? Dangerous cults? What is the justification for
>> lumping lunatics like James Jones, the Branch Davidians, Synanon,
>> Florida-based Straight Inc., New Jersey’s KIDS, etc., and "deliberately
>>
>> Small yet significant? Dangerous cults? What is the justification for
>> lumping lunatics like James Jones, the Branch Davidians, Synanon,
>> causing pain" with AA or other voluntary step programs?
>>
>>> 12-step programs—with their clichéd language, frequent meetings and
>>
>>> religious mien—are cults. So say many critics. But in fact, the
>>> traditions of AA, NA and the other As are intentionally structured to
>>> prevent their members from crossing that line.
>>
>> Thanks for clearing that up.
>>
>>> Nonetheless, there is a reliable way to use the steps to create a
>>> full-fledged destructive cult.
>>
>> Yes, and the ways precede Bill W. by a few centuries.
>>
>>> Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups. Cults are
>>> self-enclosed organizations that use a well-defined set of coercive
>>> persuasion tactics.
>>
>> In other words, nothing like AA or or volunteer step programs and
>> fellowships.
>>
>>> However, since 12-step programs in the community aren’t residential,
>>> prevent their members from crossing that line.
>>
>> Thanks for clearing that up.
>>
>>> Nonetheless, there is a reliable way to use the steps to create a
>>> full-fledged destructive cult.
>>
>> Yes, and the ways precede Bill W. by a few centuries.
>>
>>> Cults are not simply weird or dangerous religious groups. Cults are
>>> self-enclosed organizations that use a well-defined set of coercive
>>> persuasion tactics.
>>
>> In other words, nothing like AA or or volunteer step programs and
>> fellowships.
>>
>>> can’t physically isolate people or take their life savings—and because
>>> they are formally leaderless—they have little risk of becoming the next
>>> Jonestown, Guyana, or Waco, Texas.
>>
>> Thanks for getting around to clearing that up. So..., for this article
>> they were lumped together for no logical reason.
>>
>>> The reason is a toxic compound created when AA’s voluntary steps are
>>
>> Thanks for getting around to clearing that up. So..., for this article
>> they were lumped together for no logical reason.
>>
>>> twisted so that they can be imposed by force, especially in settings
>>> where people cannot escape.
>>
>> In other words, not at an AA meeting where people come and go as they
>> please and members routinely tell their powerless (albeit sometimes
>> egocentric) sponsors to fuck off.
>>
>>> Chuck Dederich, the founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the
>>> power of this recipe for subjugatingpeople and creating followers.
>>
>> Again, not really the first or most notable. Have you heard of
>> Scientology? How about the Aum Shinrikyo Society? Order of the Solar
>> Temple? The Unification Church? Truth be told, every modern Christian
>> sect has a hierarchical structure which makes them more cult like than
>> AA.
>>
>>> Indeed, Synanon was the model for every“therapeutic community” (TC)
>>> where people cannot escape.
>>
>> In other words, not at an AA meeting where people come and go as they
>> please and members routinely tell their powerless (albeit sometimes
>> egocentric) sponsors to fuck off.
>>
>>> Chuck Dederich, the founder of Synanon, was the first to recognize the
>>> power of this recipe for subjugatingpeople and creating followers.
>>
>> Again, not really the first or most notable. Have you heard of
>> Scientology? How about the Aum Shinrikyo Society? Order of the Solar
>> Temple? The Unification Church? Truth be told, every modern Christian
>> sect has a hierarchical structure which makes them more cult like than
>> AA.
>>
>>> in the US, including mainstream leaderslike Phoenix House and Daytop.
>>
>> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary steps programs.
>>
>>> Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
>>> heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
>>> couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
>>> notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
>>> lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
>>> members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
>>> conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
>>> charismatic leader was dead drunk.
>>
>> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary step programs.
>>
>>> A toxic compound is created when AA’s voluntary steps are imposed by
>>
>> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary steps programs.
>>
>>> Originally hailed in the 1950s as a tough, peer-pressure-based cure for
>>> heroin addiction, by the late 1970s it was stockpiling weapons, forcing
>>> couples to get sterilized and swap partners and, perhaps most
>>> notoriously, had placed a de-rattled rattlesnake in the mailbox of a
>>> lawyer who had begun winning cases against it on behalf of former
>>> members who had been abducted and abused. When Dederich was arrested for
>>> conspiracy to commit murder in the snake incident in 1980, the
>>> charismatic leader was dead drunk.
>>
>> Thus irrelevant to AA and other voluntary step programs.
>>
>>> force.
>>
>> Force?
>> Any steps that are not voluntary are not part of AA or other voluntary
>> step programs.
>>
>> <snip more unrelated to AA and voluntary step programs cult minutia>
>>
>>> So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
>>> inspire cult formation?
>>
>> The inspiration for cults is a by-product of human nature.
>>
>>> Step 1: It starts with
>>
>> <snip psychobabble>
>>
>>> Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
>>> worse.
>>
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands
>>
>> Demands?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
>>> when imposed by force
>>
>> By force?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
>>> sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation
>>
>> Forced meditation?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> Step 12: Topping off the process is the demand to “carry the message”
>>
>> Force?
>> Any steps that are not voluntary are not part of AA or other voluntary
>> step programs.
>>
>> <snip more unrelated to AA and voluntary step programs cult minutia>
>>
>>> So how do the use of attack therapy and forcing the steps on people
>>> inspire cult formation?
>>
>> The inspiration for cults is a by-product of human nature.
>>
>>> Step 1: It starts with
>>
>> <snip psychobabble>
>>
>>> Steps 2 and 3: When imposed coercively, these principles make matters
>>> worse.
>>
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> Steps 4, 5 and 10: Now, add in the demands
>>
>> Demands?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> Steps 6 and 7: And these principles add an even more poisonous element:
>>> when imposed by force
>>
>> By force?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> Step 11: While they may seem utterly harmless, prayer and meditation
>>> sadly further aid this type of coercion: For one, forced meditation
>>
>> Forced meditation?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>
>> Demand?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
>>> inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
>>> antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy
>>
>> <snip more unrelated to AA or 12 step programs psychobabble>
>>
>>> The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
>>> to control others via coercive tactics.
>>
>> Unethical people who want to control others via coercive tactics are
>> nothing new. Where there's a will, there's a way. Politics is much
>> more effective than volunteer step programs.
>>
>>> Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993
>>
>> <snip irrelevant cult synopsis>
>>
>>> Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
>>> into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
>>> that 12-step programs themselves—or every rehab that requires working
>> Demand?
>> <snip parts unrelated to AA and volunteer step programs>
>>
>>> One further ingredient makes this stew even more toxic. It is an
>>> inconvenient truth that in the addicted population, people with
>>> antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and outright psychopathy
>>
>> <snip more unrelated to AA or 12 step programs psychobabble>
>>
>>> The steps provide an unfortunate guide for unethical people who want
>>> to control others via coercive tactics.
>>
>> Unethical people who want to control others via coercive tactics are
>> nothing new. Where there's a will, there's a way. Politics is much
>> more effective than volunteer step programs.
>>
>>> Florida-based Straight Inc., which operated from 1976 to 1993
>>
>> <snip irrelevant cult synopsis>
>>
>>> Uncovering a pattern of 12-step therapeutic communities that evolved
>>> into cults and caused grave damage to participants is in no way to imply
>>> the steps—are cults.
familiar with the true nature of 12 step programs.
The lady is for real, a neuroscience journalist (whatever that is). She
has been published in TIME Magazine, the New York Times, Elle,
Scientific American Mind, the Washington Post, New Scientist and
Psychology Today etc.. I guessing that the target audience is reading
with an uncritical eye.
http://healthland.time.com/author/maiasz/
Crus...@nomail.com
May 12, 2013, 10:17:13 PM5/12/13
to
On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:47:42 -0400, Fred Exley
foot flashing neon sign. Anyone who has stayed in AA for more than a
year is so goddamn brainwashed that they're beyond hope. Those of us on
the outside who have been in AA can clearly see what AA really is. It's
so clear and obvious that even an idiot could see that it's a cult.
Apparently this means that those on the inside dont even have enough
brains to qualify as an idiot. This also explains to a large degree why
95% (or higher) of those who join AA dont even last one year. I doubt
that any permanant AA members can be honest with even themselves,
regarding this. Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any
member recovering from AA and addiction to AA.
<webm...@araa2008.gohsphere.com> wrote:
>>
>> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
>
>
>I didn't read it. But I read the comments.
>
>SteveNY opined:
>
>The author of this article must have intended to write a piece on humor
>and/or irony. Otherwise, it's several absurdities lead one to believe
>that it is a piece not to be taken seriously. That is, except by
>conspiracy theorists, fanatics or wannabe cult leaders.
AA members would not believe that AA is a cult if it was written on 50
>>
>> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
>
>
>I didn't read it. But I read the comments.
>
>SteveNY opined:
>
>The author of this article must have intended to write a piece on humor
>and/or irony. Otherwise, it's several absurdities lead one to believe
>that it is a piece not to be taken seriously. That is, except by
>conspiracy theorists, fanatics or wannabe cult leaders.
foot flashing neon sign. Anyone who has stayed in AA for more than a
year is so goddamn brainwashed that they're beyond hope. Those of us on
the outside who have been in AA can clearly see what AA really is. It's
so clear and obvious that even an idiot could see that it's a cult.
Apparently this means that those on the inside dont even have enough
brains to qualify as an idiot. This also explains to a large degree why
95% (or higher) of those who join AA dont even last one year. I doubt
that any permanant AA members can be honest with even themselves,
regarding this. Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any
member recovering from AA and addiction to AA.
Socrates
May 12, 2013, 10:56:01 PM5/12/13
to
On 5/12/2013 7:17 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
to comprehend.
> Anyone who has stayed in AA for more than a year is so goddamn
> brainwashed that they're beyond hope.
Compared to what? Whom? What is self brainwashing? Paranoia or run of
the mill false pride and ego?
> Those of us on the outside who have been in AA can clearly see what
> AA really is.
You don't seem to be outside. You've built your own cult in your head.
Maybe you should start a 12 step program for those addicted to
obsessing about AA.
> It's so clear and obvious that even an idiot could see that it's a cult.
However one wishes to define it, it clearly has a bigger hold on your
limited intelligence than anyone I ever knew who was part of the
*voluntary* fellowship.
> Apparently this means that those on the inside dont even have enough
> brains to qualify as an idiot.
Finally..., my irony fix for the day.
> This also explains to a large degree why 95% (or higher) of those who
> join AA dont even last one year.
So..., you are obsessing about the 5% of a group of people you have
never had contact with? Who is the idiot again?
> I doubt that any permanant AA members can be honest with even
> themselves, regarding this.
Honesty has a unique meaning to the possessed.
> Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any member
> recoveringfrom AA and addiction to AA.
Probably not wise to use yourself as an example.
Step One:
We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
become embarrassing.
> On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:47:42 -0400, Fred Exley wrote:
>>> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
>> I didn't read it. But I read the comments.
>> SteveNY opined:
>> The author of this article must have intended to write a piece on humor
>> and/or irony. Otherwise, it's several absurdities lead one to believe
>> that it is a piece not to be taken seriously. That is, except by
>> conspiracy theorists, fanatics or wannabe cult leaders.
> AA members would not believe that AA is a cult if it was written on 50
> foot flashing neon sign.
Clearly neither did the author of the article you didn't seem to be able
>>> For this paper, Socrates give Maia Szalavitz the grade of C-
>> I didn't read it. But I read the comments.
>> SteveNY opined:
>> The author of this article must have intended to write a piece on humor
>> and/or irony. Otherwise, it's several absurdities lead one to believe
>> that it is a piece not to be taken seriously. That is, except by
>> conspiracy theorists, fanatics or wannabe cult leaders.
> AA members would not believe that AA is a cult if it was written on 50
> foot flashing neon sign.
to comprehend.
> Anyone who has stayed in AA for more than a year is so goddamn
> brainwashed that they're beyond hope.
the mill false pride and ego?
> Those of us on the outside who have been in AA can clearly see what
> AA really is.
Maybe you should start a 12 step program for those addicted to
obsessing about AA.
> It's so clear and obvious that even an idiot could see that it's a cult.
limited intelligence than anyone I ever knew who was part of the
*voluntary* fellowship.
> Apparently this means that those on the inside dont even have enough
> brains to qualify as an idiot.
> This also explains to a large degree why 95% (or higher) of those who
> join AA dont even last one year.
never had contact with? Who is the idiot again?
> I doubt that any permanant AA members can be honest with even
> themselves, regarding this.
> Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any member
Probably not wise to use yourself as an example.
Step One:
We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
become embarrassing.
Tim and Lisa
May 13, 2013, 12:34:38 AM5/13/13
to
wrote in message news:rdi0p85nj1li4847i...@4ax.com...
My brain needed a good washing. . .;o)
#1 Idiot
Crus...@nomail.com
May 13, 2013, 5:43:03 PM5/13/13
to
On Sun, 12 May 2013 19:56:01 -0700, Socrates <empir...@wing-it.net>
wrote:
Spoken like a true brainwashed member of the cult. You BELONG in AA.
Your type sees everyone else as garbage under your feet, but heaven
forbid anyone speaks against your beloved AA cult religion. Of course
we all know know that AA members are ALWAYS right, (in their own mind).
After all, AA members are the ones chosen by God himself. Like the one
guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics in AA are
the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help others".
Just proves what a bunch of brainwashed idiots exist inside the walls of
AA meetings. And we all know that AA members are self absorbed
egotistical, arrogant assholes who think the world owes them. That
describes you quite well. Yep, you belong in AA, with the rest of your
type. The one good thing, about AA is that AA keeps cocksuckers like
you off the streets and out of the bars, so the rest of us normal people
dont have to deal with swine such as yourself, and your fucked up overly
bloated selfish attitude. Maybe AA does serve a purpose afterall. It
prevents bar fights, because if you came into a bar with your attitude,
someone would kick the shit out of you. And being a bartender, I really
hate having to cope with bar fights. Although I'd have you ass out of
the bar, and in handcuffs, before you could count to three.
---
Crush the AA cult. Run them out of your town....
wrote:
Your type sees everyone else as garbage under your feet, but heaven
forbid anyone speaks against your beloved AA cult religion. Of course
we all know know that AA members are ALWAYS right, (in their own mind).
After all, AA members are the ones chosen by God himself. Like the one
guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics in AA are
the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help others".
Just proves what a bunch of brainwashed idiots exist inside the walls of
AA meetings. And we all know that AA members are self absorbed
egotistical, arrogant assholes who think the world owes them. That
describes you quite well. Yep, you belong in AA, with the rest of your
type. The one good thing, about AA is that AA keeps cocksuckers like
you off the streets and out of the bars, so the rest of us normal people
dont have to deal with swine such as yourself, and your fucked up overly
bloated selfish attitude. Maybe AA does serve a purpose afterall. It
prevents bar fights, because if you came into a bar with your attitude,
someone would kick the shit out of you. And being a bartender, I really
hate having to cope with bar fights. Although I'd have you ass out of
the bar, and in handcuffs, before you could count to three.
---
Crush the AA cult. Run them out of your town....
Tommy
May 13, 2013, 6:06:38 PM5/13/13
to
<Crus...@nomail.com> wrote in message news:com...
Why do you feel the need to make such a fool of yourself by barefaced lying
in your posts.
What do you hope to gain beyond being the kook of this forum.
I personally don't attend AA meetings - I did for several years. Now I live
miles out the country, plus I'm retired, and not in the best of health. I'm
not sick per se, but have a back problem which prevents me from sitting
comfortably for an hour or more. Would I go to a meeting. I'll make you a
promise.... I'll try to get to meetings specifically to try to hear the
lies you propagate - howzatt strike you, you lying kook hahahahaha
PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
Cheers
Kook watcher Tommy
>>Honesty has a unique meaning to the possessed.
>>
>>> Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any member
>>> recoveringfrom AA and addiction to AA.
>>
>>Probably not wise to use yourself as an example.
>>
>>Step One:
>>We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
>>become embarrassing.
> [1] After all, AA members are the ones chosen by God himself. Like the
>>
>>> Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any member
>>> recoveringfrom AA and addiction to AA.
>>
>>Probably not wise to use yourself as an example.
>>
>>Step One:
>>We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
>>become embarrassing.
> one
> guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics in AA are
> the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help others".
I know and you know that this is a lie. You are a liar. [1]
> guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics in AA are
> the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help others".
Why do you feel the need to make such a fool of yourself by barefaced lying
in your posts.
What do you hope to gain beyond being the kook of this forum.
I personally don't attend AA meetings - I did for several years. Now I live
miles out the country, plus I'm retired, and not in the best of health. I'm
not sick per se, but have a back problem which prevents me from sitting
comfortably for an hour or more. Would I go to a meeting. I'll make you a
promise.... I'll try to get to meetings specifically to try to hear the
lies you propagate - howzatt strike you, you lying kook hahahahaha
PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
Cheers
Kook watcher Tommy
Crus...@nomail.com
May 13, 2013, 6:11:50 PM5/13/13
to
On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" <tommyle...@yohoo.com>
wrote:
><Crus...@nomail.com> wrote in message news:com...
>> On Sun, 12 May 2013 19:56:01 -0700, Socrates <empir...@wing-it.net>
>
>>>Honesty has a unique meaning to the possessed.
>>>
>>>> Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any member
>>>> recoveringfrom AA and addiction to AA.
>>>
>>>Probably not wise to use yourself as an example.
>>>
>>>Step One:
>>>We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
>>>become embarrassing.
>
>> [1] After all, AA members are the ones chosen by God himself. Like the
>> one
>> guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics in AA are
>> the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help others".
>
>I know and you know that this is a lie. You are a liar. [1]
>
YOU WEREN'T THERE, SO WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW?
KNOWING THAT, FUCK YOU!
>Why do you feel the need to make such a fool of yourself by barefaced lying
>in your posts.
>
FUCK YOU
>What do you hope to gain beyond being the kook of this forum.
>
FUCK YOU
>I personally don't attend AA meetings - I did for several years. Now I live
>miles out the country, plus I'm retired, and not in the best of health. I'm
>not sick per se, but have a back problem which prevents me from sitting
>comfortably for an hour or more. Would I go to a meeting. I'll make you a
>promise.... I'll try to get to meetings specifically to try to hear the
>lies you propagate - howzatt strike you, you lying kook hahahahaha
>
>PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
>Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>
YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT EVEN
POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT ACCORDING
TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE THIS GROUP FOR
IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
PLONK!
>Cheers
>Kook watcher Tommy
>
wrote:
><Crus...@nomail.com> wrote in message news:com...
>> On Sun, 12 May 2013 19:56:01 -0700, Socrates <empir...@wing-it.net>
>
>>>Honesty has a unique meaning to the possessed.
>>>
>>>> Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any member
>>>> recoveringfrom AA and addiction to AA.
>>>
>>>Probably not wise to use yourself as an example.
>>>
>>>Step One:
>>>We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
>>>become embarrassing.
>
>> [1] After all, AA members are the ones chosen by God himself. Like the
>> one
>> guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics in AA are
>> the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help others".
>
>I know and you know that this is a lie. You are a liar. [1]
>
KNOWING THAT, FUCK YOU!
>Why do you feel the need to make such a fool of yourself by barefaced lying
>in your posts.
>
>What do you hope to gain beyond being the kook of this forum.
>
>I personally don't attend AA meetings - I did for several years. Now I live
>miles out the country, plus I'm retired, and not in the best of health. I'm
>not sick per se, but have a back problem which prevents me from sitting
>comfortably for an hour or more. Would I go to a meeting. I'll make you a
>promise.... I'll try to get to meetings specifically to try to hear the
>lies you propagate - howzatt strike you, you lying kook hahahahaha
>
>PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
>Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>
POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT ACCORDING
TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE THIS GROUP FOR
IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
PLONK!
>Cheers
>Kook watcher Tommy
>
Tommy
May 13, 2013, 6:18:33 PM5/13/13
to
<Crus...@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:gvo2p8drj32ko5s66...@4ax.com...
Shouting like a spoiled little liar doesn't become you
Once again why do you feel the need to tell lies.
Cheers
Kook watching Tommy
news:gvo2p8drj32ko5s66...@4ax.com...
>>I personally don't attend AA meetings - I did for several years. Now I
>>live
>>miles out the country, plus I'm retired, and not in the best of health.
>>I'm
>>not sick per se, but have a back problem which prevents me from sitting
>>comfortably for an hour or more. Would I go to a meeting. I'll make you
>>a
>>promise.... I'll try to get to meetings specifically to try to hear the
>>lies you propagate - howzatt strike you, you lying kook hahahahaha
>>
>>PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
>>Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>>couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>>
> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT EVEN
> POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT ACCORDING
> TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE THIS GROUP FOR
> IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>
> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>
> PLONK!
>
>>Cheers
>>Kook watcher Tommy
Oho the lying kook is getting all excited ehh
>>live
>>miles out the country, plus I'm retired, and not in the best of health.
>>I'm
>>not sick per se, but have a back problem which prevents me from sitting
>>comfortably for an hour or more. Would I go to a meeting. I'll make you
>>a
>>promise.... I'll try to get to meetings specifically to try to hear the
>>lies you propagate - howzatt strike you, you lying kook hahahahaha
>>
>>PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
>>Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>>couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>>
> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT EVEN
> POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT ACCORDING
> TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE THIS GROUP FOR
> IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>
> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>
> PLONK!
>
>>Cheers
>>Kook watcher Tommy
Shouting like a spoiled little liar doesn't become you
Once again why do you feel the need to tell lies.
Cheers
Kook watching Tommy
Socrates
May 13, 2013, 7:48:37 PM5/13/13
to
On 5/13/2013 2:43 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
> Your type sees everyone else as garbage under your feet, but heaven
> forbid anyone speaks against your beloved AA cult religion.
Not a member, never have been. My expertise is with nutbars.
> Of course we all know know that AA members are ALWAYS right, (in their
> own mind).
There is something weirdly ironic about *you* using the term "in their
own mind" (if you know what I mean).
> After all, AA members are the ones chosen by God himself.
Heh, I thought it was Allah.
> Like the one guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics
> in AA are the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help
> others".
One of the main problems with paranoia is that it kills your sense of
humor and love of irony.
> Just proves what a bunch of brainwashed idiots exist inside the walls of
> AA meetings.
For paranoids, idiots /exist/ inside the walls of their imagination.
> And we all know that AA members are self absorbed egotistical, arrogant
> assholes who think the world owes them.
Uh oh..., the "we" has crept out into the open again. How many are
there this time? Are you off your meds again?
> That describes you quite well.
As your temporary volunteer therapist, I think this is a good time to
introduce you the concept of transference, ie., the process by which
emotions originally associated with a parent or sibling, (like rage) are
unconsciously shifted to another person, especially to the analyst.
> Yep, you belong in AA, with the rest of your type.
In the interest of your therapy, please repeat this line three times or
until you experience a hint of clarity: My daddy is not on Usenet.
> The one good thing, about AA is that AA keeps cocksuckers like
> you off the streets and out of the bars, so the rest of us normal
> people dont have to deal with swine such as yourself, and your
> fucked up overly bloated selfish attitude.
When you say "the rest of *us* normal people" how many are we talking
about /this/ time and does it vary with the medication?
> Maybe AA does serve a purpose afterall. It prevents bar fights,
> because if you came into a bar with your attitude, someone would
> kick the shit out of you.
I left the bar scene to escape stalking women. That reminds me, are you
still living with your mother?
> And being a bartender, I really hatehaving to cope with bar fights.
The plot thickens. So AA is cutting into the profits of the only
profession you know?
> Although I'd have you ass out of the bar, and in handcuffs,before
> you could count to three.
Sorry, not into kinky man-sex. Not surprised to learn you have bondage
fantasies though. Keep coming back. (just kidding)
> On Sun, 12 May 2013 Socrates wrote:
>> On 5/12/2013 7:17 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>>> This also explains to a large degree why 95% (or higher) of those who
>>> join AA dont even last one year.
>> So..., you are obsessing about the 5% of a group of people you have
>> never had contact with? Who is the idiot again?
>>> I doubt that any permanant AA members can be honest with even
>>> themselves, regarding this.
>> Honesty has a unique meaning to the possessed.
>> On 5/12/2013 7:17 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>>> This also explains to a large degree why 95% (or higher) of those who
>>> join AA dont even last one year.
>> So..., you are obsessing about the 5% of a group of people you have
>> never had contact with? Who is the idiot again?
>>> I doubt that any permanant AA members can be honest with even
>>> themselves, regarding this.
>> Honesty has a unique meaning to the possessed.
>> Step One:
>> We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
>> become embarrassing.
> Spoken like a true brainwashed member of the cult. You BELONG in AA.
Hit a nerve did I?
>> We admitted we were helpless over our obsession with AA and that it had
>> become embarrassing.
> Spoken like a true brainwashed member of the cult. You BELONG in AA.
> Your type sees everyone else as garbage under your feet, but heaven
> forbid anyone speaks against your beloved AA cult religion.
> Of course we all know know that AA members are ALWAYS right, (in their
> own mind).
own mind" (if you know what I mean).
> After all, AA members are the ones chosen by God himself.
> Like the one guy said at the last AA meeting I ever attended. "Alcoholics
> in AA are the chosen ones, and God will only help them, and he wont help
> others".
humor and love of irony.
> Just proves what a bunch of brainwashed idiots exist inside the walls of
> AA meetings.
> And we all know that AA members are self absorbed egotistical, arrogant
> assholes who think the world owes them.
there this time? Are you off your meds again?
> That describes you quite well.
introduce you the concept of transference, ie., the process by which
emotions originally associated with a parent or sibling, (like rage) are
unconsciously shifted to another person, especially to the analyst.
> Yep, you belong in AA, with the rest of your type.
until you experience a hint of clarity: My daddy is not on Usenet.
> The one good thing, about AA is that AA keeps cocksuckers like
> you off the streets and out of the bars, so the rest of us normal
> people dont have to deal with swine such as yourself, and your
> fucked up overly bloated selfish attitude.
about /this/ time and does it vary with the medication?
> Maybe AA does serve a purpose afterall. It prevents bar fights,
> because if you came into a bar with your attitude, someone would
> kick the shit out of you.
still living with your mother?
> And being a bartender, I really hatehaving to cope with bar fights.
The plot thickens. So AA is cutting into the profits of the only
profession you know?
> Although I'd have you ass out of the bar, and in handcuffs,before
> you could count to three.
fantasies though. Keep coming back. (just kidding)
Crus...@nomail.com
May 13, 2013, 10:51:25 PM5/13/13
to
On Mon, 13 May 2013 16:48:37 -0700, Socrates <empir...@wing-it.net>
wrote:
>> Your type sees everyone else as garbage under your feet, but heaven
>> forbid anyone speaks against your beloved AA cult religion.
>
>Not a member, never have been. My expertise is with nutbars.
Then you got nothing to say at all, which makes you nothing but a
TROLL.....
PLONK
wrote:
>> Your type sees everyone else as garbage under your feet, but heaven
>> forbid anyone speaks against your beloved AA cult religion.
>
>Not a member, never have been. My expertise is with nutbars.
TROLL.....
PLONK
Socrates
May 14, 2013, 12:22:20 AM5/14/13
to
On 5/13/2013 3:11 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
Speaking of the various ted's did you notice that Ted Adams addy is
adam-sonted@gmail? I always suspected he was sonted:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sonted
> On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" wrote:
>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
>> Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>> couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>>
> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT EVEN
> POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT ACCORDING
> TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE THIS GROUP FOR
> IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>
> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>
> PLONK!
LOL, ya got all that Tommy? Looks like we get to help out over at
>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,, Ted
>> Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>> couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>>
> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT EVEN
> POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT ACCORDING
> TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE THIS GROUP FOR
> IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>
> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>
> PLONK!
alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
Speaking of the various ted's did you notice that Ted Adams addy is
adam-sonted@gmail? I always suspected he was sonted:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sonted
Team
May 14, 2013, 1:35:37 AM5/14/13
to
On 14/05/13 08:11, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>>
> FUCK YOU
>
>>
> FUCK YOU
a doctor on earth who could get your mother out of you!
>>
> FUCK YOU
>
>>
> FUCK YOU
>
>>
> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT
> EVEN POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT
> ACCORDING TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE
> THIS GROUP FOR IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>
> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>
> PLONK!
James! Any old midwife could get you out of your mother, but there's not
>>
> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT
> EVEN POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT
> ACCORDING TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE
> THIS GROUP FOR IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>
> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>
> PLONK!
a doctor on earth who could get your mother out of you!
Chronocidal Charlie
May 14, 2013, 5:52:24 AM5/14/13
to
On 5/13/2013 11:22 PM, Socrates wrote:
> On 5/13/2013 3:11 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" wrote:
>
>>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good
>>> companions,,,, Ted Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread
>>> his brand of lies - and a couple of more socks/liars/kooks like
>>> yourself
>>>
>> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT
>> EVEN POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT
>> ACCORDING TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE
>> THIS GROUP FOR IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>>
>> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>>
>> PLONK!
>
> LOL, ya got all that Tommy? Looks like we get to help out over at
> alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
If you and Tommy aren't careful, you are going to wind up replacing me
> On 5/13/2013 3:11 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" wrote:
>
>>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good
>>> companions,,,, Ted Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread
>>> his brand of lies - and a couple of more socks/liars/kooks like
>>> yourself
>>>
>> YOU DONT BELONG ON THIS GROUP, ALONG WITH MOST OTHERS WHO CAN NOT
>> EVEN POST ON TOPIC. TED IS ONE OF THE FEW WHO *DOES* BELONG. BUT
>> ACCORDING TO COCKSUCKERS LIKE YOU, THE KOOKS ARE THE ONES WHO USE
>> THIS GROUP FOR IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE.
>>
>> ONE LAST TIME..... FUCK YOU
>>
>> PLONK!
>
> LOL, ya got all that Tommy? Looks like we get to help out over at
> alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
on It's *Most* *Hated* list and have your own little paragraph in the
bi-weekly or what ever, ARAA-Defamer list, similar to following and be
running ads on Usenet selling illicit drugs, and be trolling the
alt.suicide groups, having you posting names usurped so's to look as if
you are posting drunk or drugged, and be a Usenet narc and few other
despicable things. ;-)
<excerpt>
(You have been warned, and will be penalized, fined, and/or imprisoned
if you violate the "Alt.Recovery.AA FAQ pointer"). The ARAA camera is
pointed at YOU this very moment. This is NOT a joke! ARAA is dictated
and controlled by a cyber stalker who believes that he can control what
is posted to the group. The name of this cyber stalker is Charlie
Lewis, from Temple Texas. He posts under hundreds of nyms, but the ones
he uses most often are Chronocidal Charlie <c...@chronocidal-charlie.me>
and "Charlie L." <c...@thereal.cc>. This man is extremely dangerous.
Whether you're a member of AA, or just someone who is concerned about
alcoholism, ARAA is *NOT* the place to go. In fact it's the top
newsgroup to *AVOID* on the internet, mainly due to this one person, and
that person is out to harm anyone and everyone who he dislikes. This
could be you! Report this person to authorities if he has any negative
contact with you, or persues any form of cyber stalking or net-bullying.
This man is very dangerous!
</excerpt>
Neat. I always suspected you and Tommy were about as *fucked* *up* as
lil ole me.
CC
Socrates
May 14, 2013, 4:20:35 PM5/14/13
to
> Neat. I always suspected you and Tommy were about as *fucked* *up* as
> lil ole me.
Tommy coming. Had zombie candidate written all over him.
Tommy
May 14, 2013, 4:54:20 PM5/14/13
to
"Socrates" <empir...@wing-it.net> wrote in message
news:kmsdvf$s76$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 5/13/2013 3:11 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" wrote:
>
>>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,,
>>> Ted
>>> Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>>> couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>>
>> On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" wrote:
>
>>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good companions,,,,
>>> Ted
>>> Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread his brand of lies - and a
>>> couple of more socks/liars/kooks like yourself
>>
>> PLONK!
>
> LOL, ya got all that Tommy? Looks like we get to help out over at
> alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
>
> Speaking of the various ted's did you notice that Ted Adams addy is
> adam-sonted@gmail? I always suspected he was sonted:
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sonted
Hahahaa I have most of ted adams/wagoner/alt.aa,nutcase,socks filtered so I
>
> LOL, ya got all that Tommy? Looks like we get to help out over at
> alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
>
> Speaking of the various ted's did you notice that Ted Adams addy is
> adam-sonted@gmail? I always suspected he was sonted:
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sonted
don't see them..
Theres only so many kooks I can take at the one time.
You do know that kooks are like taking your medicine, one three times a day,
otherwise you'll OD :-))
(Wgon) = http://homepage.eircom.net/~nobyrne/w.htm
Cheers
Tommy
Tommy
May 14, 2013, 4:57:34 PM5/14/13
to
"Socrates" <empir...@wing-it.net> wrote in message
news:kmu645$94l$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 5/14/2013 2:52 AM, Chronocidal Charlie wrote:
>> On 5/13/2013 11:22 PM, Socrates wrote:
>>> On 5/13/2013 3:11 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" wrote:
>>>
>>>>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good
>>>>> companions,,,, Ted Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread
>>>>> his brand of lies - and a couple of more socks/liars/kooks like
>>>>> yourself
>> On 5/13/2013 11:22 PM, Socrates wrote:
>>> On 5/13/2013 3:11 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 May 2013 23:06:38 +0100, "Tommy" wrote:
>>>
>>>>> PS you're not alone as an araa kook, you have some good
>>>>> companions,,,, Ted Wegener who calls himself Ted Adams to spread
>>>>> his brand of lies - and a couple of more socks/liars/kooks like
>>>>> yourself
>>>> PLONK!
>>>
>>> LOL, ya got all that Tommy? Looks like we get to help out over at
>>> alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
>>
>> If you and Tommy aren't careful, you are going to wind up replacing me
>> on It's *Most* *Hated* list and have your own little paragraph in the
>> bi-weekly or what ever, ARAA-Defamer > <snip rest of excerpt>
>>>
>>> LOL, ya got all that Tommy? Looks like we get to help out over at
>>> alt.recovery.from-12-steps without worrying about rebuttals.
>>
>> If you and Tommy aren't careful, you are going to wind up replacing me
>> on It's *Most* *Hated* list and have your own little paragraph in the
>
>> Neat. I always suspected you and Tommy were about as *fucked* *up* as
>> lil ole me.
>
> If I belong in such glorified air I don't know how it happened. AA seen
> Tommy coming. Had zombie candidate written all over him.
I don't allow liars and kooks to bother me.
>> Neat. I always suspected you and Tommy were about as *fucked* *up* as
>> lil ole me.
>
> If I belong in such glorified air I don't know how it happened. AA seen
> Tommy coming. Had zombie candidate written all over him.
Anyone that knows me, knows me for who/what I am :-)
And the zombies will take over the planet - - - - eventually :)
Cheers
Tommy
Skeezix LaRocca
May 14, 2013, 5:34:39 PM5/14/13
to
On 05/12/2013 10:17 PM, Crus...@nomail.com wrote:
>
> AA members would not believe that AA is a cult if it was written on 50
> foot flashing neon sign. Anyone who has stayed in AA for more than a
> year is so goddamn brainwashed that they're beyond hope. Those of us on
> the outside who have been in AA can clearly see what AA really is. It's
> so clear and obvious that even an idiot could see that it's a cult.
> Apparently this means that those on the inside dont even have enough
> brains to qualify as an idiot. This also explains to a large degree why
> 95% (or higher) of those who join AA dont even last one year. I doubt
> that any permanant AA members can be honest with even themselves,
> regarding this. Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any
> member recovering from AA and addiction to AA.
>
Ahhh haa haa...And yet, you continue to hang out here, even though you
>
> AA members would not believe that AA is a cult if it was written on 50
> foot flashing neon sign. Anyone who has stayed in AA for more than a
> year is so goddamn brainwashed that they're beyond hope. Those of us on
> the outside who have been in AA can clearly see what AA really is. It's
> so clear and obvious that even an idiot could see that it's a cult.
> Apparently this means that those on the inside dont even have enough
> brains to qualify as an idiot. This also explains to a large degree why
> 95% (or higher) of those who join AA dont even last one year. I doubt
> that any permanant AA members can be honest with even themselves,
> regarding this. Once brainwashed by AA, there is little hope of any
> member recovering from AA and addiction to AA.
>
buy into all of the negative shit...Like they say..."Dance, monkey dance."
--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed
JoeRaisin
May 15, 2013, 10:19:28 PM5/15/13
to
On 5/14/2013 4:57 PM, Tommy wrote:
>
> I don't allow liars and kooks to bother me.
>
> Anyone that knows me, knows me for who/what I am :-)
>
> And the zombies will take over the planet - - - - eventually :)
>
> Cheers
> Tommy
Don't go relying on zombies... unreliable is what they are...
>
> I don't allow liars and kooks to bother me.
>
> Anyone that knows me, knows me for who/what I am :-)
>
> And the zombies will take over the planet - - - - eventually :)
>
> Cheers
> Tommy
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