Looking for The Elephant
Backwoods Jean
Hi -
I'm seeing this ng for the first time tonight. I have VERY limited access &
won't be able to post too often, unfortunately.
In one of my codependency or Al-Anon books, I read a piece about alcoholism
being like an elephant in the room that everyone pretends they don't see -
but they're all aware that it's there. Does anyone here know what piece I'm
talking about & have a copy or maybe can tell me WHERE to look for it?? I'd
really appreciate any help you could give me here. Thanks.
Ezzie
Jaxatack
>From: jo...@up.net (Backwoods Jean)
Hi and welcome to our group! I think I remember reading a passage like that in
"Adult Children of Alcoholics" But I'm not sure and I loaned my copy to my
sister.
Anyway I remember reading that and I could really relate to that description
of my father's drinking, we all had to pretend it wasn't there after all dad
was the breadwinner. It was as if we all saw it but noone would validate it,
until mom had enough and when we are grown and out of the house she finally
decided to quit being the *martyr* and acknowledged it and that she couldn't
live with it anymore and left him.
Pam
Marny F
The Elephant in the Room
by Terry Kettering
There's an elephant in the room.
It is large and squatting, so it is hard to get around it.
Yet we squeeze by with, "How are you?" And, "I'm fine" . . .
and a thousand other forms of trivial chatter.
We talk about the weather.
We talk about work.
We talk about everything else--except the elephant in the room.
There's an elephant in the room.
We all know it is there.
We are thinking about the elephant as we talk.
It is constantly on our minds,
For you see, it is a very big elephant.
But we do not talk about the elephant in the room.
Oh, please, say her name.
Oh, please, say "[person's name]" again.
Oh, please, let's talk about the elephant in the room.
For if we talk about her death,
Perhaps we can talk about her life.
Can I say "[person's name]" and not have you look away?
For if I cannot, you are leaving me
Alone . . .In a room . . .
with an Elephant.
Reprinted with permission of Bereavement Publishing, Inc., Colorado
Springs, CO
Jon Wennerberg
Marny -
Thanks so very much for sending this!! I have been looking all over for
it!!
Ezzie
Marny F wrote in message <6l88cm$a...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>...
Jon Wennerberg
Pam -
Thanks for the welcome. Yeah - it was like that in my first marriage, too.
Life has been a lot better since I left and started recovery! 8 years after
leaving, I found myself getting married again - this time with my eyes wide
open! Sure does help!! <G>
Jean
Jaxatack wrote in message
<199806050043...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>>From: jo...@up.net (Backwoods Jean)
>
>Hi and welcome to our group!
>
>Anyway I remember reading that and I could really relate to that
description
>of my father's drinking, we all had to pretend it wasn't there after all
dad
>was the breadwinner.
>
>Pam
>
RLH057
Jackie C. wrote>from R.D.Laing
>
>"They are playing a game. They are playing at not playing a game. If I
>show them I see that they are playing a game, I shall break the rules
>and they will punish me. I must play the game of not seeing that I
>play the game.."
I believe this quote comes from Dr. Laings book "The Politics of Experience" He
was proposing a social theory for the cause of schizophrenia. What you see is
the frame work for the double bind theory of schizophrenia. While not refering
to substance abuse it accurately desribed the perversion of reality that takes
place in the alcoholic family. It truly is a recognition of the importance of
how information is communicated within systems.
Nice quote. Did you get it from his book?
Regards,
Rich H.
Jackie C.
from R.D.Laing
"They are playing a game. They are playing at not playing a game. If I
show them I see that they are playing a game, I shall break the rules
and they will punish me. I must play the game of not seeing that I
play the game.."
This from Alanon..
Courage to Change.. page 191
Life is a package deal. It is not enough to look only at the parts we
like. It is necessary to face the whole picture so that we can make
realistic choices for ourselves and stop setting ourselves up for
disappointment.
Living with alcoholics, many of us coped with an ever-shifting
situation in which our sense of reality changed from one minute to the
next. We adapted by taking whatever part of reality suited us and
ignoring the rest. Again and again we were devastated because reality
didn't go away just because it was ignored.
Our lives will remain unmanageable as long as we pretend that only
half of the truth is real. That's why sharing is such an important
Al-Anon tool.. When w share with other members about what is really
going on, we cut through our denial and anchor ourselves in reality.
me...
I have spent an hour going thru my books looking for this quote..
cause I have heard it too..
But I can not find it..<s>
The the elephant scenario is so important for us to understand
codependency, in my opinion.. If we stay in the denial.. And not see,
not go thru the painful learning process and really get it that we are
being abuse.. either by ourselves by being the care-taker or
whatever..If we do this we just keep the pain going and our blinders
on.
Taking of the blinders
So important..
Jackie C
Marny F
Marny here.
Ezzie, you are most welcome. "The Elephant in the Room" is at my
finger tips for whenever I need to re-read it -- or send it to
others.
Gentle as you go,
Marny
Jon Wennerberg wrote in message <6l9970$m...@btc3.up.net>...
Jackie C.
On 05 Jun 1998 23:03:36 GMT, rlh...@aol.com (RLH057) wrote:
>Jackie C. wrote>from R.D.Laing
>>
>>"They are playing a game. They are playing at not playing a game. If I
>>show them I see that they are playing a game, I shall break the rules
>>and they will punish me. I must play the game of not seeing that I
>>play the game.."
>
>I believe this quote comes from Dr. Laings book "The Politics of Experience" He
>was proposing a social theory for the cause of schizophrenia. What you see is
>the frame work for the double bind theory of schizophrenia. While not refering
>to substance abuse it accurately desribed the perversion of reality that takes
>place in the alcoholic family. It truly is a recognition of the importance of
>how information is communicated within systems.
>Nice quote. Did you get it from his book?
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich H.
No I got it from John Bradshaw who I am loath to quote here.. As I
know that I will be descended upon..
I love the quotes that Bradshaw puts in his books.. As it does take me
to other recovery literature.. Alice Miller is my favorite..
Her Pictures of a Childhood, that book.. Is very important to me.. as
I am an artist..
And I have always been afraid to open up and be creative..
<waiting to be descended upon>
Jackie C
Jim P.
JOHN BRADSHAW!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!
Didn't want to dissapoint you, Jackie :-) I do prefer Alice Miller,
though.
Jim P.
--
"You shouldn't use big words when diminutive words would suffice".
remove ** when replying
Mike Mondoux
Jackie C. wrote:
>
> No I got it from John Bradshaw who I am loath to quote here.. As I
> know that I will be descended upon..
> I love the quotes that Bradshaw puts in his books.. As it does take me
> to other recovery literature.. Alice Miller is my favorite..
> Her Pictures of a Childhood, that book.. Is very important to me.. as
> I am an artist..
> And I have always been afraid to open up and be creative..
>
> <waiting to be descended upon>
>
> Jackie C
Swooosh ................
I remember taping Bradshaw on PBS and learning much
from his programs, I have learned much from all of
these TV programs, and also " self-help books " My
interest in the " self " has been a valuable asset
and I remember that when I was a kid, my mother kept
telling me to STOP thinking of myself all the time !!.
I felt guilty for many years " being me ", and it has
not been easy to learn to accept me, as I am !!!.
My psychological WARTS are getting smaller and smaller
and smaller and smaller ... ...... ... ....... <:^} ...
One of my favorites is " The Road Less Traveled "
I loaned it to Marny, but ............ <:} .......
RLH057
>Jackie C wrote:
>No I got it from John Bradshaw who I am loath to quote here.. As I
>know that I will be descended upon..
><waiting to be descended upon>
Certainly not by me. Thanks for letting me know where the Laing quote came
from. If you can find the book "The politics of experience" you may find it
interesting. Another book I would recomend is "Anger, The Misunderstood
Emotion" by Carol Tarvis. I am not implying that you are angry just that this
work is very helpful when trying to understand emotions in general and anger
specifically. It is not written from a recovery point of view but stands as a
challenge to assumptions about feelings and emotions, it is not pop-psychology,
it is well documented. It is published by Simon&Schuster (Touchstone). And no
Ruff I do not work for the publisher:)
If you thought I was one who would descend on you I would love to understand
where that feeling of trepidation came from.
Best Wishes,
Rich H.
RLH057
>Jackie C. wrote:
> No I got it from John Bradshaw who I am loath to quote here.. As I
>> know that I will be descended upon..
> "Jim P." wrote:
>JOHN BRADSHAW!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!
>
>
>
You beat me to it. Dammit! :)
Rich(someone get me some cheezypoofs) H.
Danielle
Thank you for posting this!!!!!!!
It just made me realise that there was plenty of elephants I needed to
let go of in my life. And you see, they're really big elephants (HIV;
Fears etc...) but as long as I don't talk about the elephants, they're
constantly in my minds, I'm thinking about them while I talk...
Can I speak about the elephants??? Can I let go then???
Danielle
Marny F
Danielle, Marny here. Part of what happens at meetings and/or at
therapy is that I *talked* about things, instead of just thinking
about them, or trying to avoid thinking about them, which is just as
good as actually thinking about them! Only totally *not*
productive.
My mom used to say "You can see a flea on someone else, but not an
elephant on yourself." And she was right!
Before CoDA meetings and more understanding of myself, I could
always see everyone else's 'stuff'... Oh, mine were so minor in
comparison. NOT! I just didn't talk about mine!!!
Getting into someone else's head is getting out of mine... of
course, up in the Head is fine for thinking things over, making
decisions, etc. It's the Gut Feelings, however, that I needed to
get in touch with in order to move on in my emotional health. Once
I started on a better Feelings Path, many other things began to fall
into place...OR I was better equipped to handle the Head stuff!!!
Eureka!! The light bulbs started to go off... and the bells started
to ring!!! BUT, I had to get to the Gut Feelings place first... and
face the Elephants eye-to-eye.
Can you speak about the elephants? Can you let them go? My gut
feelings answer is Yes and Probably one at a time,
respectively...for starters.
Gentle as you go,
Marny
Danielle wrote in message <3579A8...@ukc.ac.uk>...
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <35796470...@news.newsguy.com>...
[snipped for brevity only]
>And I have always been afraid to open up and be creative..
Jackie, by all means give yourself a gift and read (and do the
mornings pages, if at all possible!) "The Artist's Way" by Julia
Cameron.
Marny F
Mike Mondoux wrote in message
<6lc29d$m...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
[snipped for brevity]
> One of my favorites is " The Road Less Traveled "
> I loaned it to Marny, but ............ <:} .......
Oops! You did? <ggg>
I've had my copy since 1990... bought it at my first 'lecture' of M.
Scott Peck, both were gifts of my new friend then-to-be-husband.
Glad to see that you haven't forgotten me. <smile>
Jackie C.
On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 12:00:08 -0400, Mike Mondoux
<mars-.@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Swooosh ................
> I remember taping Bradshaw on PBS and learning much
> from his programs, I have learned much from all of
> these TV programs, and also " self-help books " My
> interest in the " self " has been a valuable asset
> and I remember that when I was a kid, my mother kept
> telling me to STOP thinking of myself all the time !!.
I too was given that, the stop thinking of yourself..
For me Bradshaw was a way in.. I finally got it I *could* and *should*
think of myself..
I am learning, at this time, about my control issues.. from a book
called.. "Compelled to Control"... by J.Keith Miller
What an eye opener that one is..
I think if we don't read about it, or talk about it..
Whatever *it* is.. We stay in our own heads. And get no outside
thoughts.. When I first heard Bradshaw on TV.. I had no idea that I
was an ACA.. I just thought it normal that I married a raging drunk,
one that came home in the middle of the nite and smashed walls.. That
was what I was equipped to handle don't you see.. I knew how to do it,
calm him down and get him to bed.. I was proud of me..<s>
Now I understand that what was happening was that I was a very sick
woman.. and I was making my children sick..
In "The Artists Way." Julie Cameron really hit home to me..
when she talks about how we abandon ourselves..
I did that and I shut down.
page 98
"We strive to be good, to be nice, to be helpful, to be unselfish. We
want to be generous, of service, of the world. *But what we really
want is to be left alone.* When we can't get others to leave us
alone, we eventually abandon ourselves. To others, we may look like
we're there. We may act like we're there. But our true self has gone
to ground..
....Our artist has checked out
...I call it leaving the scene of the crime..
me... When I finally started sorting this stuff, these lessons in the
self help books, I was shut up in my house.. "Gone to ground" as Julia
Cameron so aptly puts it..
> I felt guilty for many years " being me ", and it has
> not been easy to learn to accept me, as I am !!!.
> My psychological WARTS are getting smaller and smaller
> and smaller and smaller ... ...... ... ....... <:^} ...
> One of my favorites is " The Road Less Traveled "
> I loaned it to Marny, but ............ <:} .......
>
I saw Peck speak twice. He has taught me such a lot.
The lessons of the desert page 19, in Further Along The Road Less
Traveled.. and the myth of Orestes in The Road Less Traveled..
Yes my warts are smaller too.. And I am learning how and when to
breath..<s>
Jackie C
Jackie C.
On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:46:47 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Jackie, by all means give yourself a gift and read (and do the
>mornings pages, if at all possible!) "The Artist's Way" by Julia
>Cameron.
My last artists date.. was a trip to Boston all by myself.. I saw a
Klimpt in the Fogg.. <s>
I have not been doing my morning pages.. I need to get back to them..
I just quoted from the book this morning..<s>
I have a studio.. *finally* and five paintings going..
I love "The Artists Way.."
Jackie C
Jackie C.
On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:51:21 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>I've had my copy since 1990... bought it at my first 'lecture' of M.
>Scott Peck, both were gifts of my new friend then-to-be-husband.
I think I was at one of his last lectures..
I always enjoy that man..
Jackie C
Jackie C.
On 06 Jun 1998 19:00:02 GMT, rlh...@aol.com (RLH057) wrote:
>If you thought I was one who would descend on you I would love to understand
>where that feeling of trepidation came from.
I am uneducated..
I am a grade ten drop out.. My parents were alcoholic, and I had given
up by that time.. I moved out of the house at 17.. Moved back a few
times..<s>
My education is limited.. I am basically self taught..
Bradshaw is easy for me.. Twelve steps are easy for me.. A simple way
to understand what is going on..
I think the issue around pop culture, is what was really on my mind
when I said that...
I am good at cognitive thinking.. In therapy the therapist told me
that I understood things quickly.
The words.."Take what you want and leave the rest.."
Are so powerful.. If we loose our way in a so called pop culture
book.. We get to make that mistake.. ah
a Coda issue.. I am not allowed to make a mistake.. <s>
How else are we going to understand this stuff..
The world is so full of lost people, in my opinion..
The scientist.. verses blind faith..
Contempt prior to investigation..
Twelve steps tells us to watch the ones that have gone before and the
drunk lying in the gutter that has gotten up and learned this simple
program.. is the one to follow.<s>
> Thanks for letting me know where the Laing quote came
>from.
It was from "Bradshaw On: The Family..John Bradshaw..
chapter 4
Profile of a Dysfunctional Family System.
he goes on in this chapter to talk about the rules in a dysfunctional
family..
.control
.perfectionism
.blame
.denial of the five freedoms
.no talk rule
.myth making
.incompletion
.unreliability
page 81
4. Denial of The Five Freedoms.......
"Deny feelings, perceptions, thoughts, wants and imaginings,
especially the negative ones like fear, loneliness, sadness, hurt,
rejection, and dependency needs. This follows the perfectionist rule.
"You shouldn't think, feel, desire, imagine, see things, the way you
do. You should see, hear, feel, think, imagine, desire the way the
Perfectionists ideal demands it.."
> Thanks for letting me know where the Laing quote came
>from. If you can find the book "The politics of experience" you may find it
>interesting. Another book I would recomend is "Anger, The Misunderstood
>Emotion" by Carol Tarvis. I am not implying that you are angry just that this
>work is very helpful when trying to understand emotions in general and anger
>specifically.
I have two of Laings books.. I really like that man..<s>
and I will look for these books the ones you suggest.. I have not gone
into anger a lot, I think, afraid of that sucker..
Jackie C
Jackie C.
On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:43:40 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Can you speak about the elephants? Can you let them go? My gut
>feelings answer is Yes and Probably one at a time,
>respectively...for starters.
And to really face those elephants.. wow
and to go to that dark place.. fear
afraid
fear of the unknown..
fear of abandoment.. a major for me..
So I control the situations around me
So I dont get left behind.. A childs way of thinking..
One of the elephants I never see.. unless I really look..<s>
Jackie C
RLH057
Jackie C. wrote:
>My education is limited.. I am basically self taught..
You've done well.
I appreciate your candor and openess.
>Contempt prior to investigation..
One of my favorite thoughts
>. Twelve steps are easy for me.. A simple way
>to understand what is going on..
You have apparently come to a reasonable understanding of them.I think many
other vulnerable people come to others understanding of the steps and therefore
cannot make them their own.
>I will look for these books the ones you suggest.. I have not gone
>into anger a lot, I think, afraid of that sucker..
Whenever you're ready.
Best wishes,
Rich H.
Marny F
Marny here. When I was in Singapore and went to the marvelous zoo
there... I had the opportunity to be at the right place at the right
time--when they walked the elephants from their compound to where
they performed.
Omigod! Those 'small' ones are HUGE in comparison to even yours
truly's chunky body ... and I stood there -- pretty darn close!!!
And they weren't as scary anymore.
I continue to have a respectful need for distance...and a basic
understanding that THEY are definitely bigger than me, stronger than
me, and, maybe, smarter than me... BUT they are NOT better than
me!!!
With the way my ADD zips me around, I'm not sure if I explained what
I just wrote...but it rings a bell for me and I like bells and
chimes and lights...when they trigger a search for my truth...and
please me as an adult child.
Gentle as you go,
Marny
Jackie C. wrote in message <357cf8ca...@news.newsguy.com>...
Marny F
GMTA!!! <smile>
M. Scott Peck is one incredible person...flaws and all.
Gentle hugs,
Marny
Jackie C. wrote in message <357bf84e...@news.newsguy.com>...
>On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:51:21 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
>wrote:
>
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <357bec48...@news.newsguy.com>...
>On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 12:00:08 -0400, Mike Mondoux
><mars-.@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> Swooosh ................
>For me Bradshaw was a way in..
>...Yes my warts are smaller too.. And I am learning how and when to
>breath..<s>
>
>Jackie C
Marny here. Jackie, your post is so eloquent! Whew! Marvelous.
Thank you.
On Bradshaw--we had a CoDA friend over for the evening. A lady just
beginning her journey.
I was in the kitchen preparing some eats...and she and my husband
were in the living room, watching Bradshaw on inner child.
Well, all of a sudden, I felt the need to get into the living
room... Peggy was standing up... shaking... and my eyes caught my
husband's eyes and we grabbed her and held her, as she sobbed
uncontrollably! She had NEVER heard his philosophy and what she
heard was very VERY distressing to her...she had never consciously
thought about herself as a child.
One of us had turned off the show before we held her.
My point? We know that there are a lot of things out there for us
to read about, learn about, etc. BUT FIRST, we need to be ready,
really ready, to hear some of them. I would never again, without
some prior knowledge of a person's background, EVER subject anyone
to such a show.
After than episode with Peggy, I found myself thinking of the many
other people out there, alone, watching Bradshaw... fearing! And
with no one to turn off the set for them and hold them... easing
some of their majors fears.
Breathing is a natural process--in, out, in, out... when I don't
panic and forget!
Jackie C.
On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:12:38 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>I continue to have a respectful need for distance...and a basic
>understanding that THEY are definitely bigger than me, stronger than
>me, and, maybe, smarter than me... BUT they are NOT better than
>me!!!
And you know.. when you really think of it.. All persons need that
respectful distance..<s>
That is also very scary to me.. I want to consume people.. Then I am
okay. I am real..
Someone sees me.. I am not alone in my room.. ascared..
The ones that are better than me.. interesting..
Heck in the bad old days everyone was better than me.. and I had
better not show that i was smart or talented..
Cause then i would become invisible again.. and lost again..
Cause they would not like me any more..
Don't like that one..
hard for me..
hugs Jackie C
going camping on wednesday.. YAY!
Jackie C.
On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:25:38 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>My point? We know that there are a lot of things out there for us
>to read about, learn about, etc. BUT FIRST, we need to be ready,
>really ready, to hear some of them. I would never again, without
>some prior knowledge of a person's background, EVER subject anyone
>to such a show.
In his (John Bradshaws) show, "Family Secrets".. A woman that was
interviewed, said..When something bad happened in her life.. She would
file it away.. Like a filing cabinet... And basically say I do not
want to think about that.. will just forget.
And then her daughter saying, well we all knew who was doing what to
whom.. but no one ever talked about it.. And it kept on going on..
I find that so powerful.. Our ability to just file this stuff away..
And being so alone then.. ahhhhhh I must quote from Alice Miller
here..
from Pictures of a Childhood.. Alice Miller.. page 23
........ It is therefore understandable that most people of my
generation are never able to free themselves of the compulsion to
defend and excuse their parents.
Probably I, too would have remained trapped by this compulsion and,
because it is so all-pervasive, would not even have recognized it as
such , had I not come in contact with the child within me, who
appeared so late in my life, wanting to tell me her secrets.
She approached me very hesitantly, speaking to me in an
inarticulate way, but she took me by the hand and led me into
territory I had been avoiding all my life because it frightened me.
Yet I had to go there. I could not keep on turning my back, for it was
my territory, my very own. It was the place I had attempted to forget
so many years ago, the same place where I had abandoned the child I
once was. There she had to stay, alone with her knowledge, waiting
until someone would come at last to listen to her and believe her. Now
I was standing at an open door, ill-prepared, filled with all an
adults fear of the darkness and menace of the past, but I could not
bring myself to close the door and leave the child alone again until
my death. Instead, I made a decision that was to change my life
profoundly: to let the child lead me, to put my trust in this nearly
autistic being how had survived the isolation of decades.."
me
that really reminds me of the woman you speak of..
So alone, so isolated.. And the ones that kick it back and say.. oh
don't listen to him or don't listen to her..
Not allowed..
Well I just plain do not listen to *them* anymore..
I now.. go to those files so neatly put away.. and open the folders..
and remember, darn it, and take responsibility... MAJOR
*I take responsibly*.. That was my hardest part of working the fourth
and fifth.. I wanted to stay in the resentments..
I wanted the anger and the hate.. and I could not get past it..
Not till I said.. "I did this part in it."
Very hard..
But then I can now stand on my two feet and realize I am no longer a
victim...
I was a victim.. when I kept those files and folders closed
oh oh
Jackie C
I am going camping. . on wednesday.. I am going to sit and paint..
Yessss!!!!
Mike Mondoux
Jackie C. wrote:
>
> On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:12:38 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I continue to have a respectful need for distance...and a basic
> >understanding that THEY are definitely bigger than me, stronger than
> >me, and, maybe, smarter than me... BUT they are NOT better than
> >me!!!
They are NOT even there, unless *I* make them so !!!.
They are BIGGER, because *I* make them so !!!.
They are NOT better, because *I* made that so !!!.
I think, that the distance is *always* between me and me.
>
> And you know.. when you really think of it.. All persons need that
> respectful distance..<s>
Yes, it must be for different reasons, in my case, I need only a tiny
distance, I consider my fears less so, than many others, maybe I am
more in Denial than I think I am ???, who knows .....???.
> That is also very scary to me.. I want to consume people.. Then I am
> okay. I am real..
Consume people ???, do you want to live through them ??? ....
Exactly what gives you the experience of becoming " REAL " ???.
>
> The ones that are better than me.. interesting..
> Heck in the bad old days everyone was better than me.. and I had
> better not show that i was smart or talented..
> Cause then i would become invisible again.. and lost again..
> Cause they would not like me any more..
I experienced the opposite, I naturally chose (and still do ) " TO BE "
and always stayed away from " NOT TO BE ", THAT, I think is a very major
difference between us, we each, in our directions choose different
things as different people, as we are all unique, and yet so similar ???.
>
> Don't like that one..
> hard for me..
I was very fortunate in my childhood, my problems were created be ME.
Unlike you, I liked " that one ", but, as I got older, I liked it less
and I worked very hard and still do, to make it " better " .......
>
> going camping on wednesday.. YAY!
Watch out for those ELEPHANTS .................. sm-I-le.
CABreeze
>And you know.. when you really think of it.. All persons need that
>respectful distance..<s>
>okay. I am real..
What do you mean when you say that you want to consume people?
CABreeze
*what other people think of you is none of your business*
CABreeze
Jackie, you have so much to teach all of us. I am so glad you are here.
Thank you for being brave enough to share of yourself, despite....
everything.
>I now.. go to those files so neatly put away.. and open the folders..
>and remember, darn it, and take responsibility... MAJOR
>*I take responsibly*.. That was my hardest part of working the fourth
>and fifth.. I wanted to stay in the resentments..
>I wanted the anger and the hate.. and I could not get past it..
>Not till I said.. "I did this part in it."
>Very hard..
>But then I can now stand on my two feet and realize I am no longer a
>victim...
>I was a victim.. when I kept those files and folders closed
What part was yours - what had you done?
>I am going camping. . on wednesday.. I am going to sit and paint..
Have a wonderful time Jackie :) What do you paint?
hugs,
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <357e2b88...@news.newsguy.com>...
[snipped]
>that really reminds me of the woman you speak of..
Marny here.
My friend was quite isolated ... may still be. She never came back
to the rooms of recovery. Other friends say she just works.
Doesn't want to face the trials of being displeasing to herself or
others...so she pushed herself far from everyone, including her
children and friends.
Sad, indeed. But I still call and leave messages on her machine, in
hopes that she'll open up--some day...before I'm no longer able to
say "Hi, Peggy, I miss you."
Jackie C.
On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:31:07 -0500, "CABreeze" <ren...@itis.com> wrote:
>Jackie, you have so much to teach all of us. I am so glad you are here.
>Thank you for being brave enough to share of yourself, despite....
>everything.
I will come back after my camping trip..
I have been posting on alt.adoption..
I am a birth mother.. And I have been going very deeply into those
issues..
I need to back off from them.. I have learned a lot..
But I need to stop it.. and get some balance..
I love posting on newsgroups.. and I love learning.
Thanks for saying this..<s>
Jackie C
Jackie C.
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:32:24 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>My friend was quite isolated ... may still be. She never came back
>to the rooms of recovery. Other friends say she just works.
>Doesn't want to face the trials of being displeasing to herself or
>others...so she pushed herself far from everyone, including her
>children and friends.
And we got to let them go, don't we.
And continue on our journey to self.. Put the mask on oursleves when
the plane is crashing..
Then when they *are* ready to reach out..
The words are there.. At the tip of our tongue..
<s>
Jackie C
Jackie C.
> Yes, it must be for different reasons, in my case, I need only a tiny
> distance, I consider my fears less so, than many others, maybe I am
> more in Denial than I think I am ???, who knows .....???.
Or....
by saying it makes it real.
the Elephant scenario again..<s>
>> That is also very scary to me.. I want to consume people.. Then I am
>> okay. I am real..
>
> Consume people ???, do you want to live through them ??? ....
> Exactly what gives you the experience of becoming " REAL " ???.
To be loved made, (past tense) me real..
And I would jump thru hoops to get the love..
My husband and I are going thru some very strange things these days..
I have learned that I control..And am stopping it now..
I knew, I did that, but not to the extent that I see now..
>> The ones that are better than me.. interesting..
>> Heck in the bad old days everyone was better than me.. and I had
>> better not show that i was smart or talented..
>> Cause then i would become invisible again.. and lost again..
>> Cause they would not like me any more..
>
> I experienced the opposite, I naturally chose (and still do ) " TO BE "
> and always stayed away from " NOT TO BE ", THAT, I think is a very major
> difference between us, we each, in our directions choose different
> things as different people, as we are all unique, and yet so similar ???.
I chose 'not to be'.. And I was very uncomfortable, when I was the top
of the pops.. I would step outside myself.. using drugs.
That is how I was.
The drugs made it easy.. I had a wall between me and them, and it was
all so very funny..
And I was all so very clever..
When the drugs got taken away.. I could not look people in the eye..
Yes, it is interesting how we go from one to the other..
Now I seek the middle ground..<s>
>> Don't like that one..
>> hard for me..
>
> I was very fortunate in my childhood, my problems were created be ME.
> Unlike you, I liked " that one ", but, as I got older, I liked it less
> and I worked very hard and still do, to make it " better " .......
As I do now..<s>
>> going camping on wednesday.. YAY!
> Watch out for those ELEPHANTS .................. sm-I-le.
My camper is almost packed..I can not wait to go..
We will be up in middle northern USA..
Bears... will watch for a bear...<s>
No elephants...
And I do know.... completely .. that the emperor *is* naked..
finally
Jackie C
Jackie C.
On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:33:14 -0500, "CABreeze" <ren...@itis.com> wrote:
>What do you mean when you say that you want to consume people?
A biggie..
I think the other word is control..
I am afraid to be vulnerable..
A caretaker.. I am taking care of them.. I am sponsoring them..
They can not sponsor me..
My AA sponsor would laugh, I would too, when she would ask me to look
at an issue I did not want to ..
I would, knowing her places of fear, take her there.. And she would
have to say.."Wait a minute, we were talking about you."
I consume people so they do not see me..
So I don't have to look at the fingers pointing back at me..
I am very good at diversionary tactics..
I think it comes from the times that I had to make sure everyone was
happy in my childhood home so there would be no fights..
I would know what was going on, all the time.. My alcoholic mom, who
died at eighty, still alcoholic.. Would say how I always made *her*
feel better..To me that is a form of consuming, me controlling the
situation.. *At the cost of myself*
I am scared to be alone..
Jackie C
Lyne
Marny .
You hit home with me.. It was as if you were talking about me.. I had to
take a step backwards. The difference is that I am here and read often..
Thanks for making me think again.. You have a good insight on things.. Keep
calling Peggy maybe one day she will get luckey and hear your call... Lyne-
CABreeze
So you involve yourself in the lives of others to such an extent that you
spend all your time talking about them and their problems, joys, etc., and
change the topic when you are brought up? How did that keep you safe -
because you didn't have to look at your issues?
What is it about being alone that you are afraid of - having to think, being
bored, wanting the physical closeness of another person......?
CABreeze
*what other people think of you is none of your business*
__________________________
>>What do you mean when you say that you want to consume people?
>
>A caretaker.. I am taking care of them.. I am sponsoring them..
>They can not sponsor me..
>My AA sponsor would laugh, I would too, when she would ask me to look
>at an issue I did not want to ..
>I would, knowing her places of fear, take her there.. And she would
>have to say.."Wait a minute, we were talking about you."
>
>I consume people so they do not see me..
>So I don't have to look at the fingers pointing back at me..
>I am very good at diversionary tactics..
>
Kerry
Enjoying your post! It's refreshing to see the honesty.
I am a fellow artist as well. I work as a graphic designer by trade. I
know what you mean by "The Artist Way." Though I've not read the whole
thing through, I like what I've seen so far. Funny thing though, I find
myself often wanting to do my art, but never seem to find the time. ;-)
I am encouraged that you've chosen not to simply give in to your
lonliness and isolation. And I am glad you see that controlling or
possessing people is getting you into trouble. I just want to say, take
care and let God be your source of comfort.
He has been there for me in a big way, especially when I feel no one
knows me and my existence is dependent on thier approval of me. When I
found God, he became my comforter and he taught me how to comfort
myself.
Hugs.
--
Kerry
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <35818a08...@news.newsguy.com>...
>And we got to let them go, don't we.
>
>And continue on our journey to self.. Put the mask on oursleves
when
>the plane is crashing..
>Then when they *are* ready to reach out..
>The words are there.. At the tip of our tongue..
So true... so true. <sigh>
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <357d8438...@news.newsguy.com>...
>...And I do know.... completely .. that the emperor *is* naked..
>finally
Marny here...smiling.
Sometimes I "let" (can't think of a better word) the Emperor
continue to believe the truth he needs...
*My* truth is that Yes, he's naked. As I am, when I give myself the
gift of being vulnerable.
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <357f8872...@news.newsguy.com>...
[snipped for brevity only]
>...I am scared to be alone..
Marny here. Jackie, how well I *Remember* those times! Every
Sunday, when my children went with their father and my boyfriend
went with his daughter... and I was alone with this person that I
didn't know. I wanted to kill her this stranger.
I called my therapist every Sunday... and he said "It's a beautiful
day -- grab a book and your lawn chair and sit in your backyard and
read" (or some such comment).
Well, after awhile...lo and behold! I began to enjoy the peace and
Serenity (well-before attending CoDA) and finishing a couple of
books to boot. <smile>
The stranger became more clear... she began to look like me. Wow!
She *is* me!!! And, better yet... she's a pretty nice person to be
with!!! Let me do this more often!
And now... years later, Jackie... even last night, when my DH
apologized for having to work such awful hours and sometimes 7 days,
I said "That's ok, Hunney <g>, it's good that I can now be with
Marny and do lots of stuff."
And I feel it... and... as Martha Stewart says... "It's A Good
Thing."
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <357f8872...@news.newsguy.com>...
....
>A caretaker.. I am taking care of them.. I am sponsoring them..
>They can not sponsor me..
Marny here. I learned to ask myself ... "What makes you think
*they* want to be taken care of?" and, if I care so much about
people, "How can I be so selfish as to not allow them to Give to me,
too."
I continue to learn that it's ok for me to Receive a Gift -- as well
as for me to Give a Gift.
It's also ok for me to say "No" to either or both, at the proper
times -- once I "... know the difference."
Gentle hugs,
Marny
RLH057
Marny wrote:>*My* truth is that Yes, he's naked. As I am, when I give myself
the
>gift of being vulnerable.
So are the elephants only they don't know it.
Perhaps you could answer a question. How come they chose an elephant for the
story? A parasite would have been a better choice. Don't you think?
Regards,
Rich(not an elephant any more) H.
Tom Gunn
Hiya! Tom Gunn
all of this thread incredibly relevant, to me,
just one little thing, though, I have found that the elephants were back
there.
It is the bunny rabbits today that I need to be careful about.
I do feel that everyone who has elected their own path has something to show
me,
about themselves. Much of what is written helps me to avoid the pitfalls,
but my path
has still to be trodden by me. That is the beauty of sharing experiences,
even the
negative ones, or particularly the negative ones. I cannot learn, truly
understand,
others experiences but the sharing does help me to be aware.
The elephants are like the bogy men in the cupboard were then, they are not
here now,
but they still affect my reactions to people and situations as though they
were.
My defences against the bogy men, head under covers, worked more or less.
Unfortunately
I do not have the luxury today of putting my head under the covers, I need
to open the
cupboard. Listening to people, Bradshaw, Miller, (Wilson), Keen, Norwood who
have opened
their cupboards shows me that it can be done. I may end up under the covers
whimpering
at what I have found, but at least I have done it and it looks more
rightsize.
Tom Gunn
Bond Trader turned Poet
Jackie C.
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:05:42 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Well, after awhile...lo and behold! I began to enjoy the peace and
>Serenity (well-before attending CoDA) and finishing a couple of
>books to boot. <smile>
>
>The stranger became more clear... she began to look like me. Wow!
>She *is* me!!! And, better yet... she's a pretty nice person to be
>with!!! Let me do this more often!
I love the saying.. "I have met the enemy, and it is me.."
Do you know of a group on the internet that is currently working "The
Artist Way" by Julia Cameron? I have to get back to work..
Jackie C
Jackie C.
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:17:52 -0500, "CABreeze" <ren...@itis.com>
wrote:
>So you involve yourself in the lives of others to such an extent that you
>spend all your time talking about them and their problems, joys, etc., and
>change the topic when you are brought up? How did that keep you safe -
>because you didn't have to look at your issues?
Absolute.. My issues hurt..
<s>
>
>What is it about being alone that you are afraid of - having to think, being
>bored, wanting the physical closeness of another person......?
>
I think I was just saying the saying..
To be alone without our addictions? whew
Be it people, or drugs.. or sex or rock and roll..
To sit and meditate.. what a concept..
Had a wonderful camping trip..
Jackie C
>__________________________
>
>>>What do you mean when you say that you want to consume people?
>>
>>A caretaker.. I am taking care of them.. I am sponsoring them..
>>They can not sponsor me..
>>My AA sponsor would laugh, I would too, when she would ask me to look
>>at an issue I did not want to ..
>>I would, knowing her places of fear, take her there.. And she would
>>have to say.."Wait a minute, we were talking about you."
>>
>>I consume people so they do not see me..
>>So I don't have to look at the fingers pointing back at me..
>>I am very good at diversionary tactics..
>>
Marny F
Jackie C. wrote in message <358b36ea...@news.newsguy.com>...
Marny here. There was a gentle man who attended the same CoDA
meetings as I ... and one week he said as his affirmation something
to the effect:
"If I stay in my head, I'm in a neighborhood in which I can get
mugged..." and with reference to "Footprints" -- he said that he
pictures his footprints as though G-d needed to drag him across the
sand!
Everyone laughed in the affirmation circle--until I thought about
it. Yep, I really did need to learn how to get more to my feelings,
less in my head...
And, more into Letting Go and knowing that I have no control over
anyone except myself.
I don't know of an online group, but you might do a search. There
was a group of about 15 of us on CompuServe that did the 13 weeks.
It was quite wonder-filled. Unfortunately for me, I was not near my
computer for weeks on end, as I was in AZ with my dying brother.
But just the reading of TAW was VERY helpful to me...even without
the Morning Pages. I highly recommend at least reading the book.
Let me know if you find a group, please!
Jackie C.
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:07:29 -0700, "Marny F" <msf...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>I don't know of an online group, but you might do a search. There
>was a group of about 15 of us on CompuServe that did the 13 weeks.
>It was quite wonder-filled. Unfortunately for me, I was not near my
>computer for weeks on end, as I was in AZ with my dying brother.
I was in that group.. <s>
I went to Boston for an Artist Week and never got back into it..
What about here..?????
<s>
About getting into our feelings.. out of our heads.. ohhh yes..
as JC says.. it is the act of "paying attention" that gets us thru.. I
use that a lot in my life..
Jackie C