CODA: Help me understand something...
Lucia Alfieri, MSW
Here's the situation:
About a couple weeks ago, my brother asked to cut all ties with us. He's lived
on the opposite coast for two years now. He requested our communication to be l
imited to 1) emergencies, and 2) items he wanted brought from home before he mo
ves to his new apartment. One of those items had me puzzled. I wouldn never hav
e gotten suspicious if it wasn't for the fact that I was in the D&A treatment f
ield. Anyway, I asked him, with the preface that if it weren't for my job I wou
ld never have thought twice. Knowing my parents, I told him if there was someth
ing he wanted to say, I'd be the best person to tell. (This was based on experi
ence). Well, I got a response earlier last week. He did answer my question. He
also reminded me of the boundaries he set up, and reamed me for crossing them.
Finally he tld me that I should "focus on my own addicitive behaviors and patte
rns" instead of everyone else's (In terms of my job, this can sound pretty funn
y).
Now here's the kicker - My brother told me he is in the CODA fellowship. I can
understand if some distance may be required. He's had that for two years. What
I don't understand is if CODA condones a person "burning his bridges" as he is
doing to my family. I know our parents have a lot to do with his behavior, but
if anything, he can learn to transcend that without cutting us off completely.
Also, I want to know if CODA condones the type of dialogue my brother wrote in
this letter. I took this situation to my supervisor, a recovering drug addict,
who said that this is typical of an addict in denial.
Is this type of behavior approved for recovering codependents?
Lucia
*************************************************************************
* *
* Lucia Alfieri, MSW Life Member FLUTE@TEMPLEVM *
* IOP Therapist Kappa Kappa Psi/AE FL...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU *
* NU-STOP, Philadelphia, PA Temple University *
* *
*************************************************************************
Richard Rawlings
Lucia Alfieri, MSW wrote:
>
> Here's the situation:
>
> About a couple weeks ago, my brother asked to cut all ties with us. He's lived
> on the opposite coast for two years now. He requested our communication to be l
> imited to 1) emergencies, and 2) items he wanted brought from home before he mo
> ves to his new apartment. One of those items had me puzzled. I wouldn never hav
> e gotten suspicious if it wasn't for the fact that I was in the D&A treatment f
> ield.
Why would you 'get suspicious' of a plain, simple request like that?
Are you your brothers keeper?
> Anyway, I asked him, with the preface that if it weren't for my job I wou
> ld never have thought twice. Knowing my parents, I told him if there was someth
> ing he wanted to say, I'd be the best person to tell. (This was based on experi
> ence).
AThen again, you may not. He has appraently decided you were not the
best one. Likely he is pursuing his recovery, preparing to say what he
wishes to his parents when he is ready.
> Well, I got a response earlier last week. He did answer my question. He
> also reminded me of the boundaries he set up, and reamed me for crossing them.
Excellent! Saves me the chore of doing again.
> Finally he tld me that I should "focus on my own addicitive behaviors and patte
> rns" instead of everyone else's (In terms of my job, this can sound pretty funn
> y).
It already sounds funny. Not funny, 'ha-ha' but funny 'WEIRD'...
>
> Now here's the kicker - My brother told me he is in the CODA fellowship. I can
> understand if some distance may be required. He's had that for two years. What
> I don't understand is if CODA condones a person "burning his bridges" as he is
> doing to my family.
Not at all. You're not helping one bit by taking that stance.
> I know our parents have a lot to do with his behavior, but
> if anything, he can learn to transcend that without cutting us off completely.
So you're correcting his behavior for the good of the family? Bernie!
Over here! I found another one. Where is that Bernie when we need him?
> Also, I want to know if CODA condones the type of dialogue my brother wrote in
> this letter. I took this situation to my supervisor, a recovering drug addict,
> who said that this is typical of an addict in denial.
Have you discussed you reactions with your supervisor? That would be
the appropriate response. It seems quite inappropriate for you to drag
a family matter -- essentially a family viewpoint, and a highly
dysfunctional one at that -- to your supervisor for reinforcement. Your
brothers behavior is typical of a codep in recovery. YOURS is typical
of a dysfunctional family member struggeling to scapegoat the recovering
member who has broken ties with an obviously toxic family environment.
>
> Is this type of behavior approved for recovering codependents?
Lady, we don't approve shit! Each person follows the 12-Steps as best
they can for their personal recovery. Your attempt to recruit support
in turning a recovering person back into a sick family is in itself,
insane.
>
> Lucia
>
> *************************************************************************
> * *
> * Lucia Alfieri, MSW Life Member FLUTE@TEMPLEVM *
> * IOP Therapist Kappa Kappa Psi/AE FL...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU *
> * NU-STOP, Philadelphia, PA Temple University *
> * *
> *************************************************************************
>
The attempt to introduce yourself with the presentation of credentails
is inappropriate to the NG. We do not welcome professional healers and
helpers here. The approach and reasonings used above confirm this as a
wise tradition. We, I personally, are unimpressed with your
credentials. Further, I am negatively impressed with the illness
presented in your post.
It is truly frightening that you are in the professional recovery field.
Richard
Marny F
In <177F610D5...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> FL...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU (Lucia Alfieri, MSW)
writes:
>Here's the situation:
>
>About a couple weeks ago, my brother asked to cut all ties with us. He's lived
>on the opposite coast for two years now. He requested our communication to be l
>imited to 1) emergencies, and 2) items he wanted brought from home before he mo
>ves to his new apartment. One of those items had me puzzled. I wouldn never hav
>e gotten suspicious if it wasn't for the fact that I was in the D&A treatment f
>ld never have thought twice. Knowing my parents, I told him if there was someth
>ing he wanted to say, I'd be the best person to tell. (This was based on experi
>also reminded me of the boundaries he set up, and reamed me for crossing them.
>rns" instead of everyone else's (In terms of my job, this can sound pretty funn
>y).
>
>understand if some distance may be required. He's had that for two years. What
>I don't understand is if CODA condones a person "burning his bridges" as he is
>if anything, he can learn to transcend that without cutting us off completely.
>this letter. I took this situation to my supervisor, a recovering drug addict,
>who said that this is typical of an addict in denial.
>
>
>
I'm Marny and am in my 7th year of recovery, with the help of CoDA.
The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of CoDA are taken from the steps and traditions of AA.
Nothing that *I* know of Makes anyone say or do anything.
What may be happening is that in learning how to do things differently,
things don't always get said or done the "right" way. It takes
practice... sometimes I am learning new ways and swing very far to the
left and then all the way over to the right...hopefully, I learn
(sometimes VERY slowly!!!) to level out somewhere in the center. Some
people can hang in with that and others can't. But *I've* got to!! <s>
I have a friend of 25 years that is VERY upset that I have many signs
of recovery!! He misses my calls of tears, fears, and problems. He
feels unloved by the fact that I no longer need to relate to him that
way!!! He attacks me every time I call him, which makes it easier and
easier for me to not want to call.
Carmella V. Greacen
In article <322C3E...@olywa.net> Richard Rawlings <rra...@olywa.net> writes:
>From: Richard Rawlings <rra...@olywa.net>
>Subject: Re: CODA: Help me understand something...
>Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:19:52 -0700
>Lucia Alfieri, MSW wrote:
>>
>> Here's the situation:
>>
>> About a couple weeks ago, my brother asked to cut all ties with us. He's lived
>> on the opposite coast for two years now. He requested our communication to be l
>> imited to 1) emergencies, and 2) items he wanted brought from home before he mo
>> ves to his new apartment. One of those items had me puzzled. I wouldn never hav
>> e gotten suspicious if it wasn't for the fact that I was in the D&A treatment f
>> ield.
[much clippage]
To Louise:
My feelings about your quandary: 1) It sounds as if you have taken the
position of "family caretaker" - that you are not respecting your brother's
right to pursue his recovery as HE sees fit - but feel the need to "fix" him
in YOUR way; 2) that you are making him "wrong" - or scapegoating, as Richard
indicated - for not seeing YOUR way - for not including YOU as a confidant. He
has no obligation to do so; 3) that you did exactly what he asked you NOT to
do shows a lack of respect for his rights as a human being.
I moved 2500 miles to separate from my family - couldn't bring myself to
do it while my mother was alive (she died at 58 in 1980) . . . basically I was
too enmeshed with her martyrdom & couldn't handle the guilt. I hope you find
a way not to "guilt" your brother for seeking his own recovery in his own way.
Today, I have a healthy relationship with my son & daughter (who still
live on the east coast) & my stepmother. My father's death last year freed us
all to be healthier with one another. Prior to his death, my stepmother's
codep "loyalties" contributed to problems. But I managed to establish &
maintain boundaries . . . finally.
As for the rest of my extended family (uncles, aunts, cousins) - most of
them are in highly dysfunctional situations & I quite simply avoid contact
except at rare group functions when I happen to be visiting my immediate
family. Sure, they try to "guilt" me every time - i.e., "when are you going
to get some sense and come back where you belong . . . how can you do this to
your children [who are 31 & 28!] . . . aren't you ashamed of yourself?"
If you wish to someday have a healthy relationship with your brother, in my
opinion you first have to respect his needs & wishes - rather than attempt to
deny his right to them . . . and rather than try to "blame" his "wrong"
behavior on some addiction. Codeps ARE addicted . . . . to unhealthy
relationships . . . and that is what he seems to be working on. Why wouldn't
you support him in that?
>Have you discussed you reactions with your supervisor? That would be
>the appropriate response. It seems quite inappropriate for you to drag
>a family matter -- essentially a family viewpoint, and a highly
>dysfunctional one at that -- to your supervisor for reinforcement.
I agree with Richard . . . . sounds to me like you wanted to hear
someone say, "you're right, he's wrong" - your brother is not a client and his
business is not your supervisor's.
>>
>> Is this type of behavior approved for recovering codependents?
>Lady, we don't approve shit! Each person follows the 12-Steps as best
>they can for their personal recovery. Your attempt to recruit support
>in turning a recovering person back into a sick family is in itself,
>insane.
>>>
>The attempt to introduce yourself with the presentation of credentails
>is inappropriate to the NG. We do not welcome professional healers and
>helpers here. The approach and reasonings used above confirm this as a
>wise tradition. We, I personally, are unimpressed with your
>credentials. Further, I am negatively impressed with the illness
>presented in your post.
>It is truly frightening that you are in the professional recovery field.
>Richard
To Richard: friend, you pull no punches! :) Carmella
ronan
FL...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU (Lucia Alfieri, MSW) writes:
{brother has cut off all ties with his family}
Everyone has the right to cut off their family. There's no law
that says families must stay in touch. Your best bet is to leave
him alone and show that you understand how difficult it was for
him to make the decision. Guilt-tripping him and making him feel
like a criminal only reconfirms his idea that his family is toxic.
Karen
-=-=-=-=-
Karen Ronan
TBrant1
Although I understand Richard's position, it seems harsh to me. I
responded to the title "Help me understand..." Lucia may "Work in the
field," but since she doesn't sound familiar with the "jargon," I assumed
she is not a professional. She is hurt and confused, and is asking for
help. That IS the first step (no pun intended). She knows she needs
help. We can hope that her supervisor will advise her appropriately, if
she's ready. Her reactions and questions are no different than those of
many recovering codependents in many rooms. I have been in that place,
and I fortunately found friends who have supported my gradual discovery of
many truths, at a pace that was comfortable to me. She will approach her
recovery in her own way, as her brother undoubtedly has. If no one tests
his new boundaries, how can he practise maintaining them?
I have found the gentleness and acceptance of others as I recover to be
more helpful than "constructive criticism" by others of my old way of
thinking. My thinking was no clearer than hers a brief time ago, and I am
still changing, will always be. Harsh analysis of that thinking would not
have benefited me then. I needed to learn for myself to look at things
differently, as will Lucia I think. I hope never to be so complacent and
assured in my own recovery that I cannot remember the old me.
Allthisnmo
In article <177F610D5...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>, FL...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU (Lucia
Alfieri, MSW) writes:
>Here's the situation:
>
>About a couple weeks ago, my brother asked to cut all ties with us. He's
>lived
>on the opposite coast for two years now. He requested our communication
to be
>l
>imited to 1) emergencies, and 2) items he wanted brought from home before
he
>mo
>ves to his new apartment. One of those items had me puzzled. I wouldn
never
>hav
>e gotten suspicious if it wasn't for the fact that I was in the D&A
treatment
>f
>ield. Anyway, I asked him, with the preface that if it weren't for my job
I
>wou
>ld never have thought twice. Knowing my parents, I told him if there was
>someth
>ing he wanted to say, I'd be the best person to tell. (This was based on
>experi
>ence). Well, I got a response earlier last week. He did answer my
question.
>He
>also reminded me of the boundaries he set up, and reamed me for crossing
>them.
>Finally he tld me that I should "focus on my own addicitive behaviors and
>patte
>rns" instead of everyone else's (In terms of my job, this can sound
pretty
>funn
>y).
>
Why is this funny???
>Now here's the kicker - My brother told me he is in the CODA fellowship.
I
>can
>understand if some distance may be required. He's had that for two years.
>What
>I don't understand is if CODA condones a person "burning his bridges" as
he
>is
>doing to my family. I know our parents have a lot to do with his
behavior,
>but
>if anything, he can learn to transcend that without cutting us off
>completely.
>Also, I want to know if CODA condones the type of dialogue my brother
wrote
>in
I don't know about the group your brother belongs to, but CODA is not set
up to "condone" anything....It's place is not one of judgement.
>this letter. I took this situation to my supervisor, a recovering drug
>addict,
>who said that this is typical of an addict in denial.
>
>Is this type of behavior approved for recovering codependents?
>
>Lucia
>
>*
Lucia,
What is the purpose of your question? Are you prepared to wage a war with
your brother over his boundaries if you get an answer that says, "No, it
is not approved behavior"? Maybe he is STRUGGLING with not behaving in
ways that are approved by your family. I'm not saying it's right, but
he's made it clear he wants space. He does have that right. By getting
all in his business when he's made it clear that the concern is not wanted
will only alienate him more.
As for the role of CODA in all of this......
CODA meetings follow the same 12 steps and traditions of AA, NA, etc. The
focus is not on approval or condemnation, but on what makes a person grow
spiritually and readjust one's behavior patterns. I say that you should
give your brother time, and back off a little..... (my opinion, and you
know what they say about opinions.....) <g>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can remain silent and let the world think you a fool, or speak and
remove all doubt!
allth...@aol.com (Dana)
Richard Rawlings
TBrant1 wrote:
>
> Although I understand Richard's position, it seems harsh to me.
Reality is often harsh. Confrontation is harsh. Pain is harsh. I came
honestly to these conclusions over years of recovery. I don't expect
you to agree with me, but I do expect you to honor and respect my
position and experience.
> I
> responded to the title "Help me understand..." Lucia may "Work in the
> field," but since she doesn't sound familiar with the "jargon," I assumed
> she is not a professional.
She stated she was, and made several references to her work in the post.
> She is hurt and confused, and is asking for
> help. That IS the first step (no pun intended). She knows she needs
> help. We can hope that her supervisor will advise her appropriately, if
> she's ready.
It truly appears she is not. Her line is one of seeking reinforcement
for a course already decided upon. That is not a request for help.
that is manipulation.
> Her reactions and questions are no different than those of
> many recovering codependents in many rooms.
Except she demands recognition as a healer.
> I have been in that place,
> and I fortunately found friends who have supported my gradual discovery of
> many truths, at a pace that was comfortable to me.
I can honor that. However, she will get no help from me if she wishes to
continue dysfunctional behavior. I may have been direct, even rude, but
does anyone dispute the facts I have presented?
> She will approach her
> recovery in her own way, as her brother undoubtedly has. If no one tests
> his new boundaries, how can he practise maintaining them?
So her intrusion is actually a beneficial thing? Doubtful.
>
> I have found the gentleness and acceptance of others as I recover to be
> more helpful than "constructive criticism" by others of my old way of
> thinking. My thinking was no clearer than hers a brief time ago, and I am
> still changing, will always be.
I agree her thinking is not clear. It is bent in a direction determined
by years of steeping in the toxic family of origin. It is still bent,
and untrustworthy for the role she has assumed in life. How can she
advise others when her personal issues are so deeply clouding her
judgement? This is life or death here. What's an ego, or fuzzy
feelings compared to human life? Nothing.
> Harsh analysis of that thinking would not have benefited me then. I needed to learn
> for myself to look at things differently, as will Lucia I think. I hope never to be
> so complacent and assured in my own recovery that I cannot remember the old me.
Then you would have steered wide of me after a few minutes. Don't ask
me questions you don't really want answers for. I don't have time for
it. I've got a life to live, and there's still some time left. I don't
have time for folks, any folks, that want to wallow in their past
delusions of Nice, OK, or Sorta.
"Don't ask me what I think of you, 'cause I might not tell you what you
want me to."
Richard
NINADSE
Although I suspect that many will find Richard's comments to be somewhat
harsh, I choose to view them as a reminder that this program is all about
self-care, and Lucia's brother clearly is struggling to give himself the
space and time he needs to practice that self-care. I've had enough
people in my life telling me that they know what's "best" for me to
appreciate how difficult it is to detach from this situation and think for
myself.
Richard, your plain speaking is, as always, a signal to me that when I
sugar-coat my own truth, I'm just taking care of other people's feelings.
Harsh? Maybe. Honest? You bet!
Hugs,
Nina
Jen Carr
Dear Lucia, family members of CODA and Co-Dependants:
Like any other addiction, breaking codependant habits may
require an individual to "get out of the bar" so to speak. Breaking
communications with family members, spouses and getting out of
any other situation in which we are tempted to go back to codependant
behavior may be necessary until we learn how to respond in ways
that are healthy. I, for one, feel that I would not have had a chance
to recover from my own codependent behavior without the space
I took from my family.
A common characteristic of codependance is not really knowing
what boundaries are. It seems to me that if your brother is trying
to set some, he is making progress. Would you be so critical of
an addict who was trying to quit?
Also, why do you assume that he is burning bridges if what he has
requested from you is that communication be limited? I really don't
think that respecting his boundaries is so difficult. Additionally, in
what way is he in denial? Your letter is very confusing to me.
I would suggest also that if you are questioning CODA approval,
you could ask CODA directly. There national phone number is
602-277-7991 fax# 602-274-6111. Also, the board has a resourse
on line at CoDA...@aol.com.
Lucia Alfieri, MSW <FL...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> wrote in article
<177F610D5...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>...
> Now here's the kicker - My brother told me he is in the CODA fellowship.
I can
> understand if some distance may be required. He's had that for two years.
What
> I don't understand is if CODA condones a person "burning his bridges" as
he is
> doing to my family. I know our parents have a lot to do with his
behavior, but
> if anything, he can learn to transcend that without cutting us off
completely.
> Also, I want to know if CODA condones the type of dialogue my brother
wrote in
> this letter. I took this situation to my supervisor, a recovering drug
addict,
> who said that this is typical of an addict in denial.
>
> Is this type of behavior approved for recovering codependents?
>
> Lucia
>
Allthisnmo
In article <50kc9v$t...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, nin...@aol.com (NINADSE)
writes:
>Richard, your plain speaking is, as always, a signal to me that when I
>sugar-coat my own truth, I'm just taking care of other people's feelings.
>Harsh? Maybe. Honest? You bet!
I agree. I responded to the original post with veiled words. The message
(as I've mentioned to Richard) really sent chills up my spine. Richard
was able to say exactly what I wanted to say, only I lacked the guts
To Richard<
THANK YOU
Marny F
In <50jekb$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> tbr...@aol.com (TBrant1) writes:
[snipped for brevity only!]
>I hope never to be so complacent and
>assured in my own recovery that I cannot remember the old me.
The author of "The Road Less Traveled" (M. Scott Peck) said that one of
the most important words to remember is "Remember."
I have shared at my CoDA meetings that I must always Remember what I
was like before coming into the rooms!
Your well-said message confirms "Remember" for me. Thank you.
Marny
who finds the critical approach a turn-off in hearing a message ...
Doug Budzak
In article <50n2fr$e...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, msf...@ix.netcom.co says...
>The author of "The Road Less Traveled" (M. Scott Peck) said that one of
>the most important words to remember is "Remember."
>
>I have shared at my CoDA meetings that I must always Remember what I
>was like before coming into the rooms!
>
>Your well-said message confirms "Remember" for me. Thank you.
I'd just like to recommend the above-mentioned book to everyone on
this newsgroup. I'm reading it right now, and it's fantastic. Usually I zip
right thru a book, but this one has taken a while.....maybe it's sinking in!
Check it out; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you find.
-Doug