Summary (Thank you so much!)
Stepper
how to handle my wife's problem with clutter. I didn't understand
it at all, despite the fact that we've suffered with it for 15 years.
Y'all were very welcoming and responsive, and have helped me a
lot to understand some aspects of the problem that I didn't
appreciate before. Thank you very much.
Minteeleaf in particular alerted me to the relationship between
"OCD" and "hoarding", both terms I hadn't heard before in connection
with this problem. She suggested I do some research on this, and as
a way of giving something back to the group, I'd like to offer my
summary of a key paper on the subject.
I'd like to thank everyone who responded to me in the "QVC" thread.
I appreciate your time and attention.
Stepper
===================================================================
Stepper's summary of ...
"A COGNITIVE-BEHAVIORAL MODEL OF COMPULSIVE HOARDING"
by Randy Frost and Tamara Hartl
We begin with a definition of clinical compulsive hoarding.
Clinical Compulsive Hoarding is:
1) the acquisition of, and failure to discard, a large number
of possessions that appear to be useless or of limited value.
AND 2) living spaces sufficiently cluttered so as to preclude
activities for which those spaces were designed.
AND 3) significant distress or impairment in functioning caused
by hoarding.
It is noteworthy that *all* of the above are necessary for hoarding
to be defined as "clinical". Other important points include
- the "appears to be useless" clause means "in the eyes of
an impartial observer", not the hoarder
- distress includes not only health hazards, or the loss of use of
some parts of the house, but also social stress including marital
stress
The "model" is a psychological model, meaning it's an attempt to
explain the thought processes of a hoarder, and how they are different
from the thought processes of a non-hoarder.
There are significant limits to the model which we need to be aware of
up front.
First, it is known that hoarding is associated with several different
problems, including Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Obsessive
Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD, a distinct disorder from OCD),
Attention Deficit Disorder, and Anxiety Disorder, among others. This
model only tries to explain what we might call "compulsive" hoarding,
that is, the type of hoarding which has features most like those
found in OCD or OCPD.
Second, just because this is a model of "compulsive" hoarding, it does
not mean that everyone who fits this description necessarily has OCD,
OCPD, or any other disorder. In fact, some psychologists have even
suggested a "primary" hoarding disorder, that is, hoarding in the
absence of any other psychological problem at all.
With the preliminaries and caveats out of the way, we're now ready for
the model.
-----
People suffering from Clinical Compulsive Hoarding have cognitive
deficits in four related areas. I'll simply enumerate the areas and
the major bullets within each, and give a short indication of what
the authors meant by each bullet.
I. Information Processing deficits
A. decision-making deficits
B. deficits in categorization/organization
C. difficulties with memory
1. lack of confidence in memory
2. overestimation of negative consequences of forgetting
Hoarders appear to have difficulty making decisions (A). This difficulty
stems from considering too much information rather than not enough, and
is related to difficulties in categorization (B). Since hoarders consider
every detail, each object seems unique, and therefore belongs in its own
unique category. This make it hard to organize things.
Two aspects of memory appear to be of particular relevance in compulsive
hoarding. First, the hoarder lacks confidence in his or her ability to
remember things (C.1), and second, overestimates the negative consequences
of forgetting information (C.2). The first effect often motivate hoarders
to keep their possessions where they can see them, fearing that if they
file them away, they'll forget that they have them. The second effect
contributes to preventing the hoarder from discarding possessions.
II. Emotional Attachment Problems
A. pure sentimentality
B. possessions as "safety signals"
Hoarders appear to have excessively strong emotional attachments
to their possessions (A). (We're not necessarily talking about
teddy bears here, but rather emotional attachment even to things
like old envelopes that a kid scribbled something on six years ago.)
Hoarders are comforted and reassured by the presence of their
possessions (B). This may have something to do with their lack
of confidence in their memories.
III. Behavioral Avoidance
A. avoid making a decision to save/discard
B. avoid doing the chore of weighing the
myriad of variables involved in making a decision
C. avoid difficulties deciding where to put an object
D. avoid harmful consequences of making a wrong decision
E. avoid emotional upset involved in discarding cherished possessions
F. avoid the work associated with
plowing through the mountain of clutter
"Behavioral Avoidance" appears to be a bit of psychological jargon
meaning "procrastination". Hoarders have an elaborate collection
of motivations for avoiding the work associated with discarding
their possessions. Many of these reasons are related to their
other deficits, specifically, difficulties in decision making
(A, B, C), hypersensitivity to making mistakes (D), and emotional
attachment (E). As the mountains of clutter build up, the overwhelming
volume of work to be done provides another reason to procrastinate (F).
IV. Beliefs about the nature of possessions
A. exaggerated desire for contol
B. elaborate sense of responsibility
1. preparing to meet a future need
2. responsibility to prevent harm to the object
C. beliefs about what's possible/expected
1. perfection is possible
2. you should remember everything
Hoarders have an exaggerated need to maintain control over
their possessions (A), and often are unwilling to share them
or have someone else touch them. This may have something to
do with their exaggerated emotional attachments (II.A, II.B).
They also have an exaggerated feeling of responsibility,
both to prepare for the future (B.1), and to prevent harm
from coming to their possessions (B.2). Finally, they have
certain unrealistic beliefs about what one can and should
be able to accomplish, for example, that perfection is
possible (C.1), or that perfect memory is possible (C.2).
===================================================================
On a personal note, the "elaborate sense of responsibility in
preparing to meet a future need" bullet finally explains why
it is such a problem to travel with my wife. She packs for
every trip as though we were getting ready to make an
expedition up the Amazon. It takes her days to pack to go
anywhere, and we're always carrying ten times as much as
we need. We're frequently hours or even days late leaving
the house. She just can't finish packing.
lily
> A week or so ago I came to this group looking for inspiration on
> how to handle my wife's problem with clutter. I didn't understand
> it at all, despite the fact that we've suffered with it for 15 years.
>
> "A COGNITIVE-BEHAVIORAL MODEL OF COMPULSIVE HOARDING"
> by Randy Frost and Tamara Hartl
>
> We begin with a definition of clinical compulsive hoarding.
>
> Clinical Compulsive Hoarding is:
>
> 1) the acquisition of, and failure to discard, a large number
> of possessions that appear to be useless or of limited value.
>
> AND 2) living spaces sufficiently cluttered so as to preclude
> activities for which those spaces were designed.
>
> AND 3) significant distress or impairment in functioning caused
> by hoarding.
Snip again...
> People suffering from Clinical Compulsive Hoarding
Savings Disorder) But that's just me! :-)
>have cognitive deficits in four related areas. I'll simply enumerate
the areas and the major bullets within each, and give a short
indication of what the authors meant by each bullet.
>
> I. Information Processing deficits
> A. decision-making deficits
> B. deficits in categorization/organization
> C. difficulties with memory
> 1. lack of confidence in memory
> 2. overestimation of negative consequences of forgetting
Okay...I can relate to those too.
> Hoarders appear to have difficulty making decisions (A). This difficulty
> stems from considering too much information rather than not enough, and
> is related to difficulties in categorization (B). Since hoarders consider
> every detail, each object seems unique, and therefore belongs in its own
> unique category. This make it hard to organize things.
Oh yeah!
> Two aspects of memory appear to be of particular relevance in compulsive
> hoarding. First, the hoarder lacks confidence in his or her ability to
> remember things (C.1),
No...I guess I'll opt out on that particular "virtue".
>and second, overestimates the negative consequences
> of forgetting information (C.2).
Oh boy! You found me out! I freak about that! (Yea...I do,
actually.)
>The first effect often motivate hoarders
> to keep their possessions where they can see them, fearing that if they
> file them away, they'll forget that they have them.
Not too sure about that one.
>The second effect contributes to preventing the hoarder from
discarding possessions.
I'm listening...
>
> II. Emotional Attachment Problems
> A. pure sentimentality
> B. possessions as "safety signals"
>
> Hoarders appear to have excessively strong emotional attachments
> to their possessions (A). (We're not necessarily talking about
> teddy bears here, but rather emotional attachment even to things
> like old envelopes that a kid scribbled something on six years ago.)
> Hoarders are comforted and reassured by the presence of their
> possessions
Yeah...as for myself...I'll buy that! On both counts. I do tend to
think "everything" has feelings. I know...it's weird. Can't help it.
>(B). This may have something to do with their lack of confidence in
their memories.
Dunno about that one; you'll have to "splain" it a lil better. But I'm
not discounting it for sure.
>
> III. Behavioral Avoidance
> A. avoid making a decision to save/discard
> B. avoid doing the chore of weighing the
> myriad of variables involved in making a decision
> C. avoid difficulties deciding where to put an object
> D. avoid harmful consequences of making a wrong decision
> E. avoid emotional upset involved in discarding cherished possessions
> F. avoid the work associated with plowing through the mountain of
> clutter
> "Behavioral Avoidance" appears to be a bit of psychological jargon
> meaning "procrastination". Hoarders have an elaborate collection
> of motivations for avoiding the work associated with discarding
> their possessions. Many of these reasons are related to their
> other deficits, specifically, difficulties in decision making
> (A, B, C), hypersensitivity to making mistakes (D), and emotional
> attachment (E). As the mountains of clutter build up, the overwhelming
> volume of work to be done provides another reason to procrastinate (F).
Okay. I know I have hyper-sensitivity to making mistakes...really
*REALLY* bad, in my case. Very bad.
>
> IV. Beliefs about the nature of possessions
> A. exaggerated desire for contol *(dunno - maybe in a round-about-way)
> B. elaborate sense of responsibility
> 1. preparing to meet a future need (prolly so)
> 2. responsibility to prevent harm to the object (yup)
> C. beliefs about what's possible/expected
> 1. perfection is possible (probably not possible but better make it happen anyway!!!)
> 2. you should remember everything (well - I used to think this but I'm older now - can't relate to this any more - it'll never happen!)
>
> Hoarders have an exaggerated need to maintain control over
> their possessions (A), and often are unwilling to share them
> or have someone else touch them. This may have something to
> do with their exaggerated emotional attachments (II.A, II.B).
> They also have an exaggerated feeling of responsibility,
> both to prepare for the future (B.1), and to prevent harm
> from coming to their possessions (B.2). Finally, they have
> certain unrealistic beliefs about what one can and should
> be able to accomplish, for example, that perfection is
> possible (C.1), or that perfect memory is possible (C.2).
Well, pretty much...yup. As a brief summary...I guess you pegged it
for me at least. Hope that helps you verify something you think you
may be dealing with in your world. It was nice of you to hold that
mirror up for me, too. I've never quite viewed things that way
before. Thank You for that perspective.
>
> ===================================================================
Okay...I'm there, dude...now what? Recognition is the first step...but
I'm ready to move on...waaAay ready!!!
"Lily" perpetually ready to toss out the whole smiggin'schmo! Jes
can't quite do it some how or t'other!
Stepper
> >
> > Clinical Compulsive Hoarding is:
> >
> > 1) the acquisition of, and failure to discard, a large number
> > of possessions that appear to be useless or of limited value.
> Yup....got that.
> >
> > AND 2) living spaces sufficiently cluttered so as to preclude
> > activities for which those spaces were designed.
> Yup....got that.
> >
> > AND 3) significant distress or impairment in functioning caused
> > by hoarding.
> Yup....got that too.
Then they would say you have it!
> I've always called it TMS (Too much stuff)/ a symptom of GSD (Genetic
> Savings Disorder) But that's just me! :-)
Are you sure you're not my sister-in-law?? She has
cluttering problems just as bad as DW, I wonder if
it runs in families? SIL is also a cheerful person :)
> > Two aspects of memory appear to be of particular relevance in compulsive
> > hoarding. First, the hoarder lacks confidence in his or her ability to
> > remember things (C.1),
>
> No...I guess I'll opt out on that particular "virtue".
DW has a *great* memory! In fact, if I ever ask her where anything
is, she can find it instantly (once she gets through with snarling
at me and insulting me for not already knowing, that is).
> >(B). This may have something to do with their lack of confidence in
> their memories.
>
> Dunno about that one; you'll have to "splain" it a lil better. But I'm
> not discounting it for sure.
Here is what Frost & Hartl have to say about "emotional attachment to
possessions as safety signals":
"[They] ... describe the reaction of one hoarder during a
particularly stressful day, ''I just want to go home and
gather my treasures (things) around me.'' In this sense
possessions provide a source of of comfort and security
and may signal a safe environment. Thus, each possession
comes to acquire an association with comfort and safety.
Many hoarders seem to react similarly when acquiring new
possessions. Buying or acquiring objects, even if they are
obviously frivolous or unneccessary, seems to provide some
degree of comfort for many hoarders. In this way, compulsive
buying may be related to hoarding."
[[Oops, they didn't say anything about memory, did they? The point
about visual cues (having stuff out where you can see it) and
lack of confidence in memory was actually made at a different
place in the article, sorry.]]
> > ...hypersensitivity to making mistakes (D) ...
>
> Okay. I know I have hyper-sensitivity to making mistakes...really
> *REALLY* bad, in my case. Very bad.
F&H would say that you won't throw stuff away because
you think it might be useful someday, and if so, throwing
it away could be a "mistake".
They write, "both the hoarder and the nonhoarder may judge the
the probability of future need for a possession the same, but the
hoarder concludes that the possession should be saved while the
nonhoarder concludes that the possession should be discarded.
The question then becomes why is the threshhold for saving
different for the hoarder? The answer may lie in the meaning
or perceived consequences (i.e. the risk) of not having the
possession when it is needed..."
> Well, pretty much...yup. As a brief summary...I guess you pegged it
> for me at least. Hope that helps you verify something you think you
> may be dealing with in your world. It was nice of you to hold that
> mirror up for me, too. I've never quite viewed things that way
> before. Thank You for that perspective.
You're welcome! I'm glad it was useful for somebody. This is all
very new to me, so I'm learning a lot from it!
> > ===================================================================
> Okay...I'm there, dude...now what? Recognition is the first step...but
> I'm ready to move on...waaAay ready!!!
I dunno, keep reading maybe? These authors have written a bunch
of articles, it'll take some time to read through them. I guess
the next thing would be to see if they've published anything
about treatment strategies?
Stepper
Minteeleaf
>
She has
> cluttering problems just as bad as DW, I wonder if
> it runs in families?
Maybe it runs in some families; not sure. What I know is:
MIL was a hoarder, FIL is not. They had 4 children.
Three out of 4 of those children are not hoarders.
One is, one is an OCD cleaner. Another is bipolar in a big
way, I stay away from her. The oldest brother told me once
he'd never marry for fear of a wife being like his mother.
He never has married & is a successful businessman.
On my side, dad is a packrat but not a hoarder.
His messes aren't too bad. My brother is a minimalist,
my sister & I are basically neat people, but not anal
nor compulsive cleaners.
We both like to be organized, it is continuing to evolve.
Minteeleaf
lily
>
> Then they would say you have it!
>
> > I've always called it TMS (Too much stuff)/ a symptom of GSD (Genetic
-before finding this group of dear friends! :-)
>
> Are you sure you're not my sister-in-law?? She has
> cluttering problems just as bad as DW, I wonder if
> it runs in families? SIL is also a cheerful person :)
Could be...we are all cosmically connected in some way, at least I
believe so. ;-) I know my MOM was like this and so is my only sibling
and my Grandma had too much stuff too...but we always associated the
"Great Depression" {and I mean the ecconomic one - not the emotional
depression} with their generation. Still we have accumulated the same
mentality. And frankly, as I see how things are being made
nowadays(gawd-I sound like them too!} I have to wonder if they weren't
right in some ways. But yes...it would be better to toss a lot of
this crap out and buy new if the occassion EVER ACTUALLY presented
itself...so what if the new thing was junkier...at least the cords
weren't gnawed by a mouse(s) for the last ten years! <grin/nod>
>
> > > Two aspects of memory appear to be of particular relevance in compulsive
> > > hoarding. First, the hoarder lacks confidence in his or her ability to
> > > remember things (C.1),
> >
> > No...I guess I'll opt out on that particular "virtue".
>
> DW has a *great* memory! In fact, if I ever ask her where anything
> is, she can find it instantly (once she gets through with snarling
> at me and insulting me for not already knowing, that is).
Me too...that's why I have to opt out on this...I can tell you the
exact location of the first gum wrapper given to me by my first
boyfriend. I know that's not a "good thing" but I also know that my
"memory" is not faulty! :-)
>
> Here is what Frost & Hartl have to say about "emotional attachment to
> possessions as safety signals":
>
> "[They] ... describe the reaction of one hoarder during a
> particularly stressful day, ''I just want to go home and
> gather my treasures (things) around me.'' In this sense
> possessions provide a source of of comfort and security
> and may signal a safe environment. Thus, each possession
> comes to acquire an association with comfort and safety.
> Many hoarders seem to react similarly when acquiring new
> possessions. Buying or acquiring objects, even if they are
> obviously frivolous or unneccessary, seems to provide some
> degree of comfort for many hoarders. In this way, compulsive
> buying may be related to hoarding."
>
> [[Oops, they didn't say anything about memory, did they? The point
> about visual cues (having stuff out where you can see it) and
> lack of confidence in memory was actually made at a different
> place in the article, sorry.]]
> Yah...The last thing I want to do on a 'spe cially stressful day is "gather my treasures around me"...rather...one of two things happen: either I :(1) hybernate or (2) go on a cleaning binge where I throw out things that haunt me for years to come!
>
> > > ...hypersensitivity to making mistakes (D) ...
> >
> > Okay. I know I have hyper-sensitivity to making mistakes...really
> > *REALLY* bad, in my case. Very bad.
>
> F&H would say that you won't throw stuff away because
> you think it might be useful someday, and if so, throwing
> it away could be a "mistake".
>
> They write, "both the hoarder and the non-hoarder may judge the
> the probability of future need for a possession the same, but the
> hoarder concludes that the possession should be saved while the
> nonhoarder concludes that the possession should be discarded.
> The question then becomes why is the threshhold for saving
> different for the hoarder? The answer may lie in the meaning
> or perceived consequences (i.e. the risk) of not having the
> possession when it is needed..."
>
>
> > Well, pretty much...yup. As a brief summary...I guess you pegged it
> > for me at least. Hope that helps you verify something you think you
> > may be dealing with in your world. It was nice of you to hold that
> > mirror up for me, too. I've never quite viewed things that way
> > before. Thank You for that perspective.
>
> You're welcome! I'm glad it was useful for somebody. This is all
> very new to me.
> > Okay...I'm there, dude...now what? Recognition is the first step...but
> > I'm ready to move on...waaAay ready!!!
>
> I dunno, keep reading maybe? These authors have written a bunch
> of articles, it'll take some time to read through them. I guess
> the next thing would be to see if they've published anything
> about treatment strategies?
>
UHhhh...that's why I'm here...there is a LOT of support and good ideas
here in this group...without having to wade through tons of scientific
perspectives. I'm ready for right-now-valuable-information. So if
you are ready for that...even as a spouse of a
clutterer,"Stepper"...you've come to the right place, baby! Just
remind us from time to time to gear the conversations from a dweller
to a survivor...from a clutterer to a tolerator...or however you'd
like to be acknowledged...if at all. But in any case: Welcome!
Welcome! Welcome!
> Stepper
Stepper
> you are ready for that...even as a spouse of a
> clutterer,"Stepper"...you've come to the right place, baby! Just
> remind us from time to time to gear the conversations from a dweller
> to a survivor...from a clutterer to a tolerator...or however you'd
> like to be acknowledged...if at all. But in any case: Welcome!
> Welcome! Welcome!
Thanks for the warm welcome, lily!
I came here for some insight into the problems we're having with
clutter, and I've already learned that in many cases clutter is
more than just a pile of stuff left where it shouldn't be.
We took delivery on "Sink Reflections" by The FlyLady, and DW has
already been reading it. Last night at dinner she started listing
her excuses (she calls them "reasons") for not being able to pick
up ... too busy, too many interruptions, fibromyalgia, and after
all, this whole thing started after we had kids ...
Y'all, I am a patient, patient man. I've put up with an awful lot
for a very long time. But when she starts blaming her problems on
innocent children, my patience runs out.
"Do you remember the apartment we lived in just after we got married?
And the one right after that? We didn't have children then. There has
never been a time, ever, since we've been married, that we haven't lost
the use of at least one room in our house to clutter."
As you can imagine, I am not the world's most popular guy right now.
She tore into me like a rabid wolf. "You are so negative! You can't
criticize me until you've walked a mile in my shoes, and you can't
do that, because they're *my* shoes!" Et cetera. It went on for
quite a while.
What she's really trying to say is that she can do whatever she
pleases, for whatever reasons she pleases, and she can even blame
the results on children for god's sake, and I'm just supposed to
shut up about it.
How am I supposed to tell the difference between a legitimate reason
for not getting something done, and a self-serving excuse? How am I
supposed to believe in fibromyalgia, when she lists it right alongside
something which is obviously a complete delusion? How much patience
is one person supposed to have?
Don't call me a survivor or a tolerator, please. I'm a sufferer.
Sorry for being such a downer, y'all. I am not having the best day.
Stepper
Louise
"Stepper" <ste...@chartertn.net> wrote in message
news:9bc551c5.03041...@posting.google.com...
> I came here for some insight into the problems we're having with
> clutter, and I've already learned that in many cases clutter is
> more than just a pile of stuff left where it shouldn't be.
>
> We took delivery on "Sink Reflections" by The FlyLady, and DW has
> already been reading it. Last night at dinner she started listing
> her excuses (she calls them "reasons") for not being able to pick
> up ... too busy, too many interruptions, fibromyalgia, and after
> all, this whole thing started after we had kids ...
>
> Y'all, I am a patient, patient man. I've put up with an awful lot
> for a very long time. But when she starts blaming her problems on
> innocent children, my patience runs out.
Hi stepper,
I think Flylady has a lot to offer, particularly the daily emails and
reminders. The thing is "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it
drink" Until your spouse is ready to Finally Love Herself enough to make a
change you cannot*make * it happen. I am aware that some people will find
Flylady's "no whinging" just do this approach simplistic and maybe
belittling of their condition. However I think that even when one has a real
psychological problem one can fix it 15 minutes at a time
Louise
Stepper
>
> However I think that even when one has a real
> psychological problem one can fix it 15 minutes at a time
I hope you're right, Louise.
"You are so critical, I don't think I want our relationship to continue."
"I do. I want to finish the child-raising project we started."
"I'm not. I want you to leave."
"You are free to leave anytime you want. I won't stand
in your way. Take your clutter with you when you go."
Stepper (not having a good weekend)
Helen
<ste...@chartertn.net> writes
>"Louise" <lou...@happybabysling.com> wrote in message news:<b7b84q$ctucj$1@ID-
>145519.news.dfncis.de>...
>>
>> However I think that even when one has a real
>> psychological problem one can fix it 15 minutes at a time
>
>I hope you're right, Louise.
>
>"You are so critical, I don't think I want our relationship to continue."
>
>"I do. I want to finish the child-raising project we started."
>
>"I'm not. I want you to leave."
>
>"You are free to leave anytime you want. I won't stand
> in your way. Take your clutter with you when you go."
>
>Stepper (not having a good weekend)
I'm so sorry that you're having heated words over the clutter, but
fighting is not going to help. You really are going to have to give
your wife time to decide for herself that she wants to change her
behaviour. After all, that is what you're asking her to do. She's got
into a particular way of living, and you're trying to force her out of
her rut. But if it's forced on her, it won't work very well and it
won't last.
Personally, I don't find FlyLady helpful (apart from the shiny sink and
a couple of other things) and put her in the "fluffy pink drill
sergeant" category, but some people find that her methods work for them.
They do seem geared to the stay at home mum, whereas I'm the full-time
worker with limited time at home, so that might be why I don't get so
much from it.
You say that one excuse your wife gives is that she's too busy. So she
must do something. What does she do well? Are there any transferable
skills that might make the clutter management easier. IIRC, she is good
at laundry.
I do worry that you're not the best person to be tackling your wife over
this as you're too close too the problem. Is there a fibromyalgia
support group (or similar) that your wife could attend? If she had more
support with her physical problems, she might generally feel better.
She also has to admit to herself that though some of her reasons for not
clearing up are valid, others are just excuses. If she could talk to
people who are clearly more disabled than she is, yet who still cope, it
might encourage her to try a bit more.
Also, don't think that just because she's lashing out at you, she isn't
thinking about the clutter and the book. If criticised, I will fight
back, even (or especially?) when I feel the criticism is justified. I
won't necessarily leap into action right away, because I need time to
work things out for myself. If your wife is similar in personality, if
you back off (having made your feelings plain), then you stand a much
better chance of having her do something useful than if you keep on at
her.
It's especially painful to be criticised by the person you love. What
you need to do is stop criticising and start praising when she makes
even the smallest step in the right direction.
Helen
--
Helen, Gwynedd, Wales *** http://www.baradel.demon.co.uk
Medium Gnome
There is a lot of info on the net about it.
Many of the things you describe your wife as being fit into this
description. I'm not trying to make a diagnosis just a suggestion to look
into. She may be mildy bipolar which can explain why it can easily be
missed and explain the shopping habits too. Watch for words like hypomania.
Yvette
"Stepper" <ste...@chartertn.net> wrote in message
news:9bc551c5.03041...@posting.google.com...
Stepper
>
> I'm so sorry that you're having heated words over the clutter, but
> fighting is not going to help.
Helen, I am certain that every word you wrote is the truth. I am
certain fighting doesn't help. I'm certain I'm not the best person
to deal with the problem!
What I'd really like to do is wash my hands of the whole situation
and let someone else deal with it. Who wouldn't? But fifteen years
of experience has taught me that if I do nothing, she'll do the same.
If I say nothing, she'll assume that everything is ok.
If I wasn't tripping over stuff every time I tried to move from here
to there I could ignore the problem. But it's everywhere, it's all
the time, and I can't.
I had a ray of hope today. As a side-effect of my participation in
this group, I had a folder full of research articles from the Frost
group sitting next to the computer. She found it, and started reading.
She quickly came to the same assessment that I did, namely, that the
1996 Frost & Hartl article, which I summarized here, was the most
worthwhile.
Without me prompting her to do it, she read the article, and we had
a very nice, very civil discussion on what it said. Her opinion was
that it all made perfect sense, and in fact was so obvious that it
scarcely needed any explaining at all.
"But, you know," I said, "the reason they're writing articles about
it in psychology journals is that it's not at all obvious to the
rest of us. It doesn't make sense to us. We need to have it
explained, ok?"
It was a bit of a revelation for both of us. What was so obvious
to her was utterly news to me. And that was news to her! It's clear
that we both think about things in two fundamentally different ways.
Perhaps now we'll have a common language to talk about it.
At least we're starting the week on speaking terms. That's progress!
Stepper
helena
Cool!
--helena
Helen
<ste...@chartertn.net> writes
>
>I had a ray of hope today. As a side-effect of my participation in
>this group, I had a folder full of research articles from the Frost
>group sitting next to the computer. She found it, and started reading.
>She quickly came to the same assessment that I did, namely, that the
>1996 Frost & Hartl article, which I summarized here, was the most
>worthwhile.
>
>Without me prompting her to do it, she read the article, and we had
>a very nice, very civil discussion on what it said. Her opinion was
>that it all made perfect sense, and in fact was so obvious that it
>scarcely needed any explaining at all.
>
Perhaps men don't do it, but women (especially perhaps mothers and
daughters?) sometimes communicate by "accidentally" leaving things lying
around. For example a packet of contraceptive pills, so that mother
knows that daughter is being sensible. That sort of thing.
Perhaps if you could appear to back off, yet "inadvertently" leave other
interesting and helpful articles and books lying around, your wife might
help herself to the help she needs. The trick to this method of
communication is to not say anything unless the other person does.
>"But, you know," I said, "the reason they're writing articles about
>it in psychology journals is that it's not at all obvious to the
>rest of us. It doesn't make sense to us. We need to have it
>explained, ok?"
>
>It was a bit of a revelation for both of us. What was so obvious
>to her was utterly news to me. And that was news to her! It's clear
>that we both think about things in two fundamentally different ways.
>Perhaps now we'll have a common language to talk about it.
>
>At least we're starting the week on speaking terms. That's progress!
>
>Stepper
I'm so glad. Hang in there.
Stepper
> In article <9bc551c5.0304...@posting.google.com>, Stepper
> <ste...@chartertn.net> writes
> >
> >I had a ray of hope today. As a side-effect of my participation in
> >this group, I had a folder full of research articles from the Frost
> >
> I think you have, by accident, stumbled on something that might work.
> Perhaps men don't do it, but women (especially perhaps mothers and
> daughters?) sometimes communicate by "accidentally" leaving things lying
No, I don't do that! lol!
It seems terribly unreliable to me -- too easy for the message to
get lost. In this case, however, it at least served to defuse a
tense situation.
During the week I'm busy from perhaps 7 AM to perhaps 9:30 PM,
and after that I just want to flop. Yesterday I was at work
from 8 AM to 7 PM.
So I'm making no progress on the clutter. So far this week she's
made no progress on the clutter. Maybe this weekend I'll try to
deal with the (2 years sitting there) boxes of dishes. I won't
say anything, I won't be critical, I'll just do it.
Stepper
==Daye==
wrote:
>So I'm making no progress on the clutter. So far this week she's
>made no progress on the clutter. Maybe this weekend I'll try to
>deal with the (2 years sitting there) boxes of dishes. I won't
>say anything, I won't be critical, I'll just do it.
It might be the best gift you can give her. Sometimes I wish my
DH would just do it. DH is incredibly supportive, so no
complaints. However, a bit more action would be lovely!
Good luck!!
==Daye==
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au
moderator of the proposed group misc.kids.family-life