UK MEDIA: Narconon UK President implodes on-air

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Chris Owen

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Jan 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/16/99
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The following interview was conducted on 20 December 1997 by a local
radio station in Guildford, Surrey. The Mayor of the town had earlier
withdrawn at the last minute from the opening of a helpline by the
Narconon drugs rehabilitation centre, described by the US IRS as a
"Scientology-related organisation".

The presenter of the station's morning programme, Johnny Greenwood,
subsequently interviewed John Wood, the UK President of Narconon.
However, the interview rapidly descended into a farcical slanging match
which, if the Mayor was listening, would surely have confirmed that she
was right to withdraw her support for Narconon. Although Greenwood
repeats the same question no less than eight times, Wood refuses to
answer and instead launches into vitriolic attacks against the
programme's researcher (!).

The interview can be heard in streaming RealAudio from:
http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/sound/Narconon.ram

And it can be downloaded for offline playing from:
http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/sound/Narconon.ra

My thanks to Sol for the recording and help with the transcription.

For more information about Narconon, see the critical web pages at:
http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~cowen/essays/narconon/narconon.html

----------
Interview, Radio Guildford (?), 20 December 1997

PRESENTER:
It was decided not to open a drugs helpline in the town this afternoon.
Councillor Linda Strudwick says that when she agreed to officiate the
opening of the Narconon drugs helpline, she was unaware of the
organisation's links with the Church of Scientology and controversy over
its methods. Her office now says it will be doing more research on
Narconon before agreeing to having any more official involvement.

In a moment we'll be speaking to John Woods, who is the UK President of
Narconon. First, though, our reporter Nicola Downs has been looking at
the organisation.

NICOLA DOWNS:
Narconon describes itself as a totally drug-free, highly effective
programme to rehabilitate drug or alcohol users and put them back in
control of their lives. It uses methods devised by L. Ron Hubbard, the
founder of the Church of Scientology. The programme was first made
available to the public in 1972 but since then its unusual and
unconventional methods have caused controversy. "Claire", who has asked
to remain anonymous, took part in a Narconon project to give moral
support to her boyfriend, who is addicted to heroin. She describes some
of the methods used by Narconon to wean him off drugs:

"CLAIRE":
I know what Phil went through because I went through the same thing.
Some of you were doing the things called "training your TRs", as they're
called, where you sit and stare into somebody's eyes and you pass and
fail things, and sometimes you're not allowed to blink, and there's
another one called "TR Bullbait" where you sit and stare as people sort
of hurl abuse at you and try to get you to grin or move. You're not
support to react to noises, smacks close to your face and all sorts of
things like that - you're not supposed to react.

NICOLA DOWNS:
And she says she was surprised by some of the other methods used.

"CLAIRE":
They said that some drug usement [sic], even me having been injected in
my mouth for my fillings, all of these things get taken into into our
body and actually get trapped in the fat cells, and you have to go into
this sauna, you go for half an hour's jog, you take lots of vitamins and
minerals. You take these, you go out for a jog for half an hour, then
you come back and sit in the sauna for four and a half hours. They say
that the heat and the vitamins stimulate the things in your body and
they come out of you. You expect that you're going to survive it, but
when you're with somebody who is so keen to feel like they want their
lives back you'll just go through anything. I was absolutely convinced
that what they were telling me was true, that they were going to cure
him.

NICOLA DOWNS:
John Garrows is a Professor of Human Nutrition who's head of the
department at St Bart's Medical School in London. We asked him if in
his opinion giving drug addicts doses of minerals and vitamins, as is
described in Narconon's literature, and experienced by "Claire" and her
boyfriend, is effective in detoxifying them.

JOHN GARROWS:
On theoretical grounds I don't know why the programme of exercise and
drugs and saunas and so forth should be particularly effective, nor do I
know of any trials in which they compared their programme with anybody
else's programme in a properly controlled manner and starting with the
same sort of people at the beginning.

NICOLA DOWNS:
And forensic psychiatrist Dr. Elizabeth Tylden says she treated half a
dozen people at her London practice suffering from what she sees as the
ill-effects of the Narconon programme.

DR TYLDEN:
Some of the advice that they were given would be OK, but the programme
hasn't been effective in the people who I've known who've tried to use
it. I've come across people who've looked extremely ill.

NICOLA DOWNS:
One of the criticisms of Narconon which have been aired is that it is
not sufficiently upfront about its links with Scientology. "Claire"
says that she was positively encouraged by Narconon to go to the
Scientology headquarters in East Grinstead for help in getting over her
depression about her boyfriend's problem.

"CLAIRE":
It wasn't explained to me like that, that they - what happened was that
Phil got quite thin and very stressed-out and I was getting very upset
because I didn't know what was happening to him. I was told that there
was a way that could help me and I kept saying to Sheila, "What is that
way that would help me?", I said "Is it Narconon?" "No no no, it's not
Narconon, not Narconon but quite similar," and I was sent to a man's
house in East Grinstead. He was a member of the Church of Scientology
and they have a special way of dealing with things. I was given a
freebie of this certain way that they do things.

NICOLA DOWNS:
After several weeks on the Narconon programme, Claire's boyfriend went
back to taking heroin and is currently in prison. The Narconon rehab
clinic he attended is no longer open. In fact Narconon currently has no
drug rehab clinics in the UK at all. Those who enrol must travel to
Holland.

PRESENTER:
Well, that was our reporter, Nicola Downs, reporting there. And John
Wood of Narconon joins me now. Good morning, John.

JOHN WOOD:
Good morning.

PRESENTER:
The first criticism contained in the report there that I've like to ask
you about - in your leaflet, which I've got in front of me - "Give them
the truth and they'll see the lies" - the word Scientology doesn't
appear at all. Why not?

JOHN WOOD:
I don't see why it should. I mean, Narconon is an effective drug
rehabilitation centre. It is also a tested method of warning children
about the dangers of drugs. Now, L. Ron Hubbard wrote many techniques
to overcome many of society's ills. There's a whole range of issues -
solutions to develop in society - how you - I don't see why every time
his name is mentioned all of them should be mentioned next to it.

PRESENTER:
Well, just to pick you up on that at the moment, what were Mr. Hubbard's
qualifications for this?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, he was an expert in I think 29 different fields.

PRESENTER:
Well, according to the Board of Mental Health in the State of Oklahoma,
and this was written in 1991, they said that they threw out the
certification of Narconon purely because he had no professional
qualifications and was not really fitted to quote on it.

JOHN WOOD:
No. You've got old information there. Your researchers didn't do their
job properly. Can I just - Can I just start again? Listen: we are
saving people's lives. Narconon is an effective drug rehabilitation
centre. Now, what has happened here, right, is that controversy has
been created by your researcher on purpose because that's his job.
That's how he feels he gets his reward, by creating controversy. He has
gone through - on that tape he has gone to people who are know - going
to say something untrue about it. How come he hasn't gone to - There
are a hundred and forty thousand people in the world who say their lives
have been saved thanks to Narconon.

PRESENTER:
Where has this research been published?

JOHN WOOD:
No, they're all over the world. The testimonials - Sorry, there's no
doubt that Narconon is the most effective drug rehabilitation method in
the world -

PRESENTER:
Where is the published research?

JOHN WOOD:
There are plenty of reports that have been conducted -

PRESENTER:
Like where, for example?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, perhaps - Well, there have been tests done in Sweden, in Spain and
various other regions written up in the Journal of Toxicology. But the
problem is that your researcher went out of the way to create
controversy.

PRESENTER:
Well, this is your opportunity to tell -

JOHN WOOD:
Absolutely - No, I would rather say I -

(both talk at once)

PRESENTER:
You're not telling me where I can go to, an accredited body in *this*
country which has scientific approval, to tell me that your Narconon is
an effective treatment against drugs.

JOHN WOOD:
Well, the effective - the place to go is to meet the people - Why don't
your researchers ever contact people who have done the programme? My
own - my own friend, my best friend - I was at university with him at
this university in the eighties, he was an alcoholic. He says his life
was saved. He tells me himself his life was saved by drugs [sic]. He's
a Guildford man who was injecting methadone for fourteen years. And he
would never be - Narconon -

PRESENTER:
I'm not suggesting that nobody's ever benefited from your programme, I'm
saying that the fact that we do not seem to have any written evidence
from what people would recognise as a properly qualified clinical body
in the United Kingdom to give you the full accreditation -

(JOHN WOOD tries to interrupt)

PRESENTER:
- to be an accredited anti-narcotics agency. Why not?

JOHN WOOD:
It is not a clinical agency. It is not medical. That's the main
reason.

PRESENTER:
So it's psychological?

JOHN WOOD:
No - I mean, when the centre operated in the UK, in Dover, and in
Crowborough [near East Grinstead], we are authorised as a registered
care home for those who phone in from Social Services to be put into the
care home and we received funding from the Social Services programme.
And - If we were medical, we would have to be a nursing home, so I'm
sorry but it's more than medical treatment. If you like to call it
psychological, it basically deals with the reasons someone got involved
in drugs in the first place -

PRESENTER:
All right -

JOHN WOOD:
- and how to overcome it.

PRESENTER:
So you're saying that people who deal with drugs are, we know,
enormously vulnerable, and especially when you're getting them off it
they go through all kinds of psychological dark shadows which are being
brought out. Now, you say you're not medical and you're not
psychiatric, so what qualifies you to do this?

JOHN WOOD:
Well - God! - we've got nothing to do with *psychiatry* - their
practices are *dangerous*! They put people on - now listen to this -
psychiatrists put people *on* an addictive substance more addictive than
the drugs they were taking in the first place. They replace heroin -

PRESENTER:
Now I have no medical qualifications so I can't argue with you on that.
What I am saying is two things, and you still haven't answered my first
question. Why is there no published research by an accredited body in
the UK which says that Narconon is a proper agency doing a good job?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, there's no such report in the UK, however there are plenty of
international ones - The thing is, Narconon is standard throughout the
world. It's the same programme - the withdrawal programme, the sauna
detoxification, as spoken about in that tape, and methods looking at
that person's ethics, honesty - restoring - You see, the real issue here
is drugs cause enormous destruction in society. You know, what are we
talking about here? It's the parent's greatest fear, that their
children would be involved in drugs. Addicts are involved in crime,
we're talking about robbery, we're talking about AIDS from needles -
we're talking about -

PRESENTER:
Nobody's arguing about the drugs menace. What we're talking - It's not
the subject we're discussing here. The subject we're discussing here is
whether Narconon is an effective treatment for drugs or a front for the
Scientology movement.

JOHN WOOD:
Oh, please. I mean - There are experts throughout the world - I could
supply you - your researcher - never even tried but they went out of
their way to find only negative reports -

PRESENTER:
Can you give the names of any two agencies in this country that we can
telephone and get official accreditation for Narconon?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, I don't really know what you mean by "official accreditation".

PRESENTER:
Well, I mean, for example the one I quoted - admittedly - from seven or
eight years ago which says that certification was refused, this was the
one in America - here we are, the Board of Mental Health for the State
of Oklahoma - now, you must have, presumably, acceptances from people
who are not the Board of Mental Health for the State of Oklahoma.

JOHN WOOD:
Oh, yes - now, you see - this is going to be embarrassing for you, I'm
afraid - the thing you are putting out there - the Oklahoma Board of
Mental Health - What actually happened is that psychiatrists that are
controlling that, run that mental health board, refused a licence to
Narconon because their own methods are ineffective, they were going to
be embarrassed. The vested interests in their methadone treatment and
all their -

PRESENTER interrupts, both talk across each other

JOHN WOOD:
This is the truth. I'm telling you the truth here -

PRESENTER:
That's what they say -

(Both speak together)

JOHN WOOD:
- No - Please - Can I - Give me a chance to answer the question. Thank
you. Now, this was back in '91 or whatever it is and that was some very
up to date information you've got there. Now, what happened after the
licence was refused is that an organisation called CARF [Commission for
Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities] - it is basically in America
a five - If you get accreditation from the organisation CARF, which is a
five-star organisation, and we have - it has - The accreditation from
that is the best. It is the stamp of approval. After, given all of
that, the Mental Health Board looked stupid and they gave a licence
because they just -

PRESENTER (interrupting):
Are you saying it does now have a licence?

JOHN WOOD:
Absolutely. *Absolutely*. It is recognised by CARF and many others in
the UK.

PRESENTER:
Do you have any documentary evidence of this?

JOHN WOOD:
I can get it to you with pleasure. It's in my car, I haven't actually
got it any of the things right here - I can give to you in a second.

PRESENTER:
I do apologise, you've given me a lot of anecdotal evidence, and that's
something which is fine, except that - you must know this as a
Scientologist yourself - the Church of Scientology comes in for a fair
amount of criticism, and I'm not saying that it deserves it all, I don't
know anything about it. (WOOD in background: "Right.") What I am
saying is - you must know that whatever you do is going to come into
this - shouldn't you be belt-and-braces, copper-bottomed, absolutely
solid gold with your research printed material before you go into any of
this?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, I have a report that Jonathon never asked for, which is called -

(PRESENTER interrupts)

JOHN WOOD:
- it has all the details there -

PRESENTER:
You're accusing our researcher of having it in for you -

JOHN WOOD:
Yeah.

PRESENTER:
- and yet you're saying you had a report which explains -

JOHN WOOD:
Which he never asked for -

PRESENTER:
But why didn't you volunteer to give it to him?

JOHN WOOD:
What the hell, he's the researcher. He's doing the research behind our
backs. I'm sorry, he never asked me. He could have gone to plenty of
addicts - He could -

PRESENTER:
That's like somebody accused of burglary saying I never gave an alibi
because they never asked me for one.

JOHN WOOD:
Well, I mean, I gave you the press release, you've got Scientology and
all the details - They're all here (rustles paper).

PRESENTER:
I'd like to see that.

JOHN WOOD:
OK, it's completely there. It's talking about the Jive Aces, promoting
the book "Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought". OK. He never called
me and said, "Can I be introduced to someone who has done the programme
- who's said it's saved my life", but -

PRESENTER:
We did. He did ask this agency in London everything he had on you -

JOHN WOOD:
Yeah but -

PRESENTER:
- and what we've got is basically all your own publications here, plus -
there's also another one here, from the Ministry of Public Health of the
Russian Federation, refusing certification to Narconon.

JOHN WOOD:
Let's update and - You know, he's purposefully gone out of his way to
create controversy, which is inexcusable. We're working on this
serious drug problem. We're, we're -

(PRESENTER and WOOD talk across each other briefly)

PRESENTER:
But if they haven't got all the information that's your fault for not
telling them.

JOHN WOOD:
OK. Sure, OK. I admit - Sorry, I should have made sure that the
agencies that he went to had all the latest information - they haven't.
Thank you very much for pointing that out to me. The fact is - Look,
locally here we have five percent of eleven-year-olds using cannabis.

PRESENTER:
This is not the issue, John. The issue is not drugs. The issue is (a)
does Narconon work and (b) is it a front for Scientology? And you
haven't answered either of those questions.

JOHN WOOD:
Yes, it does work, it's the most effective rehab in the world.

PRESENTER:
And is it a front for Scientology?

JOHN WOOD:
No - that is - that is irrelevant. Firstly -

PRESENTER:
I must take issue with you there. You are dealing with people, in sauna
baths for hours at a time, who are at their most vulnerable, their most
self-doubting, at their most desperate. You've got the opportunity to -
I'm not suggesting that you do this, I'm saying that the opportunity
would be there if you were to take it to put any thoughts you wanted
into their minds.

JOHN WOOD:
Please - listen to this! - What Narconon really does, is take a person
who is an addict. I'm talking about a life of crime, I'm talking about
overdosing and AIDS and so on. It was - he had no choice. He is a
slave to the drugs. He has to rob you, your house, my house, to
survive, right? Narconon takes a person like that, restores his life,
gives him some honesty, gives him a life back, gives him the ability to
work, no longer a burden on the taxpayer. That's fantastic. That is
fantastic. That is actually giving a person his life back.

PRESENTER:
But once again, you still haven't - When will you be able to present us
with hard, black-and-white evidence signed by someone in the Department
of Health saying yes, Narconon is a good and effective treatment for
drug rehabilitation and it has no strings of any other kind attached to
it? When?

JOHN WOOD:
In about five minutes. It's in my boot. Do you want to hang on?

PRESENTER:
Well, we'll have to leave it there for the moment but, John, if you want
to bring it in I'll certainly have a look at it.

JOHN WOOD:
Thanks, I will.

PRESENTER:
Thank you very much indeed. John Wood, from Narconon - pulling a face -
thank you very much.

JOHN WOOD:
Thank you.

[END]

--
| Chris Owen - chr...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk |
|---------------------------------------------------------------|
| WORLD'S BIGGEST SINCLAIR WEB ARCHIVE: |
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Rod Keller

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Jan 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/16/99
to
Chris Owen (chr...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: The interview can be heard in streaming RealAudio from:

One letter off, Chris. Correct URLs are

http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/sound/narconon.ram
and
http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/sound/narconon.ra

--
Rod Keller / rke...@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
Black Hat #1 / Expert of the Toilet / CWPD Mouthpiece
The Lerma Apologist / Merchant of Chaos / Vision of Destruction
Killer Rod / OSA Patsy / Quasi-Scieno / Mental Bully

Hartley Patterson

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Jan 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/16/99
to
Chris Owen wrote:

> The presenter of the station's morning programme, Johnny Greenwood,
> subsequently interviewed John Wood, the UK President of Narconon.
> However, the interview rapidly descended into a farcical slanging match
> which, if the Mayor was listening, would surely have confirmed that she
> was right to withdraw her support for Narconon. Although Greenwood
> repeats the same question no less than eight times, Wood refuses to
> answer and instead launches into vitriolic attacks against the
> programme's researcher (!).

Well spotted that radio listener!
It's interesting to see how the mask drops when the right buttons are
pressed.

Psychiatry -


> Well - God! - we've got nothing to do with *psychiatry* - their
> practices are *dangerous*!

An unfavourable report -
The committee was controlled by psychiatrists
The programme researcher -
He was out to get us

The moral for journalists is, do your research. The CoS BELIEVES wogs
are stupid. Wogs don't do research.
Pity the interviewer didn't have a few L Ron quotes to finish him off.
Quote LRH and you've got them, like rabbits in headlights. Squish.

--
Hartley Patterson
http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/
An old universe and a medieval spreadsheet
Featuring JRR Tolkien, Charles Fort and L Ron Hubbard

Chris Owen

unread,
Jan 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/16/99
to
>
>>Interview, Radio Guildford (?), 20 December 1997
>
>This program have been available on my multimedia page for over a year.
>
>Direct link to the right spot:
>
>http://www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed/index.htm#25

Good stuff. I haven't seen a transcript of it anywhere so hopefully I'm
not duplicating anyone's work!

nosc...@my-dejanews.com

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Jan 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/17/99
to
In article <cJKlQQAH...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk>,
chr...@lutefisk.demon.co.uk says...

> The following interview was conducted on 20 December 1997 by a local
> radio station in Guildford, Surrey.
>

The transcript is occasionally inaccurate, and some of the errors are
quite significant in context. Here is a corrected version.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Interview, Radio Guildford (?), 20 December 1997

PRESENTER:
It was decided not to open a drugs helpline in the town this afternoon.

Councillor Linda Strudwick says that when she agreed to officiate at the


opening of the Narconon drugs helpline, she was unaware of the
organisation's links with the Church of Scientology and controversy over
its methods. Her office now says it will be doing more research on
Narconon before agreeing to having any more official involvement.

In a moment we'll be speaking to John Wood, who is the UK President of


Narconon. First, though, our reporter Nicola Downs has been looking at
the organisation.

NICOLA DOWNS:
Narconon describes itself as a totally drug-free, highly effective
programme to rehabilitate drug or alcohol users and put them back in

control of their lives. It uses methods developed by L. Ron Hubbard, the


founder of the Church of Scientology. The programme was first made
available to the public in 1972 but since then its unusual and

unconventional methods have caused concern and controversy. "Claire",


who has asked to remain anonymous, took part in a Narconon project to
give moral support to her boyfriend, who is addicted to heroin. She
describes some of the methods used by Narconon to wean him off drugs:

"CLAIRE":
I know what Phil went through because I went through the same thing.

Some of we were doing the things called "training your TRs", as they're


called, where you sit and stare into somebody's eyes and you pass and

fail things, and sometimes you're not allowed to speak, and there's
another one called "TR Bullbait" where you sit and stare and people sort
of hurl abuse at you or try to get you to grin or move. You're not
support to react to noises, and sort of smacks close to your face and all
sorts of things like that - you're not to react.

NICOLA DOWNS:
And she says she was surprised by some of the other methods used.

"CLAIRE":
They said that the - that Phil's drug abuse, and even things like me
having injections in my mouth for my fillings, all of these things get


taken into into our body and actually get trapped in the fat cells, and
you have to go into this sauna, you go for half an hour's jog, you take
lots of vitamins and minerals. You take these, you go out for a jog for
half an hour, then you come back and sit in the sauna for four and a half
hours. They say that the heat and the vitamins stimulate the things in

your body and they come out of you. You just hope that you're going to


survive it, but when you're with somebody who is so keen to feel like

they want their life back and you'll just go through anything. And I was


absolutely convinced that what they were telling me was true, that they
were going to cure him.

NICOLA DOWNS:
John Garrows is a Professor of Human Nutrition who's head of the
department at St Bart's Medical School in London. We asked him if in
his opinion giving drug addicts doses of minerals and vitamins, as is
described in Narconon's literature, and experienced by "Claire" and her

boyfriend, would be effective in detoxifying them.

JOHN GARROWS:
On theoretical grounds I don't know any reason why the programme of drugs
and exercise and saunas and so forth *should* be particularly effective,
nor do I know of any trials in which they have compared their programme
with anybody else's programme in a properly controlled manner i.e.
starting with the same sort of people at the beginning....

NICOLA DOWNS:
And forensic psychiatrist Dr. Elizabeth Tylden says she treated half a
dozen people at her London practice suffering from what she sees as the
ill-effects of the Narconon programme.

DR TYLDEN:
Some of the advice that they were given would be OK, but the programme
hasn't been effective in the people who I've known who've tried to use
it. I've come across people who've looked extremely ill.

NICOLA DOWNS:
One of the criticisms about Narconon that's been aired is that it's


not sufficiently upfront about its links with Scientology. "Claire"
says that she was positively encouraged by Narconon to go to the
Scientology headquarters in East Grinstead for help in getting over her
depression about her boyfriend's problem.

"CLAIRE":
It wasn't explained to me like that, that they - what happened was then
Phil got quite ill and very stressed-out and I was getting very upset


because I didn't know what was happening to him. I was told that there

was a way that would help me and I kept saying to Sheila, "What is that
way - ?", I said "Is it Narconon?" "No no no, it's not Narconon, but
Narconon is quite similar," and I was sent to a man's house in East


Grinstead. He was a member of the Church of Scientology and they have a
special way of dealing with things. I was given a freebie of this
certain way that they do things.

NICOLA DOWNS:
After several weeks on the Narconon programme, Claire's boyfriend went
back to taking heroin and is currently in prison. The Narconon rehab
clinic he attended is no longer open. In fact Narconon currently has no
drug rehab clinics in the UK at all. Those who enrol must travel to
Holland.

PRESENTER:
Well, that was our reporter, Nicola Downs, reporting there. And John

Wood from Narconon joins me now. Good morning, John.

JOHN WOOD:
Good morning.

PRESENTER:
The first criticism contained in the report there that I've like to ask
you about - in your leaflet, which I've got in front of me - "Give them

the truth and they'll see the light" - the word Scientology doesn't


appear at all. Why not?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, I really don't see why it should. I mean, Narconon is an effective
drug rehabilitation centre. It is also an effective method of warning
children about the dangers of drugs. Now, L. Ron Hubbard developed many


techniques to overcome many of society's ills. There's a whole range of

different solutions he's developed in society - and, uh - I don't see why


every time his name is mentioned all of them should be mentioned next to
it.

PRESENTER:
Well, just to pick you up on that at the moment, what were Mr. Hubbard's
qualifications for this?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, he is an expert in I think 29 different fields.

PRESENTER:
Well, according to the Board of Mental Health in the State of Oklahoma,

and this, admittedly, was in 1991, they said that they threw out the


certification of Narconon purely because he had no professional
qualifications and was not really fitted to quote on it.

JOHN WOOD:
Yeah, um you've got old information there. Your researchers didn't do


their job properly. Can I just - Can I just start again? Listen: we are
saving people's lives. Narconon is an effective drug rehabilitation
centre. Now, what has happened here, right, is that controversy has
been created by your researcher on purpose because that's his job.
That's how he feels he gets his reward, by creating controversy. He has

gone to - on that tape he has gone to people that are known - going
to say something negative about this. How come he hasn't gone to - There


are a hundred and forty thousand people in the world who say their lives
have been saved thanks to Narconon.

PRESENTER:
Where has this research been published?

JOHN WOOD:
No, they're all over the world. The testimonials - Sorry, there's no
doubt that Narconon is the most effective drug rehabilitation method in
the world -

PRESENTER:
Where is the published research?

JOHN WOOD:
There are plenty of reports that have been conducted -

PRESENTER:
Like where, for example?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, how - Well, there have been tests done in Sweden, in Spain and
various other - it was written up in the Journal of Toxicology. But the
point is your researcher went out of his way to create controversy.

PRESENTER:
Well, this is your opportunity to tell -

JOHN WOOD:
Absolutely - Well, I would like to say I'm disgusted -

(both talk at once)

PRESENTER:
You're not telling me where I can go to, an accredited body in *this*
country which has scientific approval, to tell me that your Narconon is
an effective treatment against drugs.

JOHN WOOD:
Well, the effective - the place to go is to meet the people - Why don't

your researchers ever contact people that have done the programme? My


own - my own friend, my best friend - I was at university with him at
this university in the eighties, he was an alcoholic. He says his life
was saved. He tells me himself his life was saved by drugs [sic]. He's
a Guildford man who was injecting methadone for fourteen years. And he

did the methodone - the uh Narconon -

PRESENTER:
I'm not suggesting that nobody's ever benefited from your programme, I'm
saying that the fact that we do not seem to have any written evidence
from what people would recognise as a properly qualified clinical body
in the United Kingdom to give you the full accreditation -

(JOHN WOOD tries to interrupt)

PRESENTER:
- of an anti-narcotics agency. Why not?

JOHN WOOD:
It is not a clinical agency. It is not medical. That's the main
reason.

PRESENTER:
So it's psychological?

JOHN WOOD:
No - I mean, when the centre operated in the UK, in Dover, and in
Crowborough [near East Grinstead], we are authorised as a registered

care home and we received funding from the Social Services for people to
do the programme. And - If it was medical, we would have to be a nursing
home, so I'm sorry but it's not a medical treatment. If you like to call


it psychological, it basically deals with the reasons someone got
involved in drugs in the first place -

PRESENTER:
All right -

JOHN WOOD:
- and helps them overcome it.

PRESENTER:
So you're saying people who deal with drugs , we know, are enormously


vulnerable, and especially when you're getting them off it they go
through all kinds of psychological dark shadows which are being
brought out. Now, you say you're not medical and you're not
psychiatric, so what qualifies you to do this?

JOHN WOOD:
Well - God! - we've got nothing to do with *psychiatry* - their

practices are *dangerous*! They put people on - I mean listen to this -
psychiatrists put people *on* an addictive substance that's more
addictive than the drug they were taking in the first place. They
replace heroin with methodone -

PRESENTER:
Now I have no medical qualifications so I can't argue with you on that.
What I am saying is two things, and you still haven't answered my first

question. Why is there no published research by an accredited body to


the UK which says that Narconon is a proper agency doing a good job?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, there's no such report in the UK, however there are plenty of
international ones - The thing is, Narconon is standard throughout the
world. It's the same programme - the withdrawal programme, the sauna
detoxification, as spoken about in that tape, and methods looking at

the person's ethics, honesty - restoring - You see, the real issue here
is drugs cause enormous destruction in society. I mean, you know, what


are we talking about here? It's the parent's greatest fear, that their

children get involved in drugs. Addicts are involved in crime,


we're talking about robbery, we're talking about AIDS from needles -
we're talking about -

PRESENTER:
Nobody's arguing about the drugs menace. What we're talking - It's not
the subject we're discussing here. The subject we're discussing here is
whether Narconon is an effective treatment for drugs or a front for the
Scientology movement.

JOHN WOOD:
Oh, please. I mean - There are experts throughout the world - I could

supply you - your researchers never even tried, they went out of their


way to find only negative reports -

PRESENTER:
Can you give the names of any two agencies in this country that we could


telephone and get official accreditation for Narconon?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, I don't really know what you mean by "official accreditation".

PRESENTER:
Well, I mean, for example the one I quoted - admittedly - from seven or
eight years ago which says that certification was refused, this was the
one in America - here we are, the Board of Mental Health for the State
of Oklahoma - now, you must have, presumably, acceptances from people
who are not the Board of Mental Health for the State of Oklahoma.

JOHN WOOD:
Oh, yes - well, you see now let me - this is going to be embarrassing for
you, I'm afraid - but the thing you are talking about there - the
Oklahoma Board of Mental Health - What actually happened was that
psychiatrists that are controlling that, that run that mental health
board, refused to give a licence to Narconon because their methods are
ineffective, they were going to be embarrassed, their vested interests in
their methadone treatments and all their -

PRESENTER interrupts, both talk across each other

JOHN WOOD:
This is the truth. I'm telling you the truth here -

PRESENTER:
That's what they say -

(Both speak together)

JOHN WOOD:
- No - Please - Can I - Give me a chance to answer the question. Thank
you. Now, this was back in '91 or whatever it is and that was some very

out of date information you've got there. Now, what happened after the
licence was refused was that an organisation called CARF [Commission for


Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities] - it is basically in America
a five - If you get accreditation from the organisation CARF, which is a
five-star organisation, and we have - it has - The accreditation from
that is the best. It is the stamp of approval. After, given all of
that, the Mental Health Board looked stupid and they gave a licence
because they just -

PRESENTER (interrupting):
Are you saying it does now have a licence?

JOHN WOOD:
Absolutely. *Absolutely*. It is recognised by CARF and many others in
the UK.

PRESENTER:
Do you have any documentary evidence of this?

JOHN WOOD:
I can give it to you with pleasure. It's in my car, I haven't actually
got it with the things right here - I can give to you in a second.

PRESENTER:
I do apologise, you've given me a lot of anecdotal evidence, and that's
something which is fine, except that - you must know this as a

Scientologist yourself obviously - the Church of Scientology comes in for
a fair amount of criticism, and I'm not saying that it's deserved or
otherwise, I don't know anything about it. (WOOD in background:


"Right.") What I am saying is - you must know that whatever you do is
going to come into this - shouldn't you be belt-and-braces, copper-
bottomed, absolutely solid gold with your research printed material
before you go into any of this?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, I have a report that Jonathon never asked for, which is called "A
briefing -

(PRESENTER interrupts): Well hang on a minute -

JOHN WOOD:
- it has all the details there -

PRESENTER:
You're accusing our researcher of having it in for you -

JOHN WOOD:
Yeah.

PRESENTER:
- and yet you're saying you had a report which explains -

JOHN WOOD:
Which he never asked for -

PRESENTER:
- which you never - well - But why didn't you volunteer to give it to
him?

JOHN WOOD:
Well, hell, he's the researcher. He's doing all the dirty work behind
our back. I'm sorry, he never asked me. He could have gone to plenty of


addicts - He could -

PRESENTER:
That's rather like somebody accused of burglary saying I never gave them


an alibi because they never asked me for one.

JOHN WOOD:
Well, I didn't - I gave you the press release, you've got Scientology and
all the details - All here (rustles paper).

PRESENTER:
I'd like to see that.

JOHN WOOD:
OK, it's completely there. It's talking about the Jive Aces, promoting
the book "Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought". OK. He never called
me and said, "Can I be introduced to someone who has done the programme
- who's said it's saved my life", but -

PRESENTER:
We did - he did ask this agency in London everything they had on you -

JOHN WOOD:
Yeah but -

PRESENTER:
- and what we've got is basically all your own publications here, plus -
there's also another one here, from the Ministry of Public Health of the
Russian Federation, refusing certification to Narconon.

JOHN WOOD:
Let's update and - You know, he's purposefully gone out of his way to
create controversy, which is inexcusable. We're working on this

serious drug problem. There are, there -

(PRESENTER and WOOD talk across each other briefly)

PRESENTER:
But if they haven't got all the information that's your fault for not
telling them.

JOHN WOOD:
OK. Sure, OK. I admit - Sorry, I should have made sure that the
agencies that he went to had all the latest information - they haven't.
Thank you very much for pointing that out to me. The fact is - Look,
locally here we have five percent of eleven-year-olds using cannabis.

PRESENTER:
This is not the issue, John. The issue is not drugs. The issue is (a)
does Narconon work and (b) is it a front for Scientology? And you
haven't answered either of those questions.

JOHN WOOD:
Yes, it does work, it's the most effective rehab in the world.

PRESENTER:
And is it a front for Scientology?

JOHN WOOD:
Look, uh - that is - that is irrelevant. Firstly -

PRESENTER:
I must take issue with you there. You are dealing with people, in sauna
baths for hours at a time, who are at their most vulnerable, their most
self-doubting, at their most desperate. You've got the opportunity to -
I'm not suggesting that you do this, I'm saying that the opportunity
would be there if you were to take it to put any thoughts you wanted
into their minds.

JOHN WOOD:
Please - listen to this! - What Narconon really does, is take a person
who is an addict. I'm talking about a life of crime, I'm talking about

overdosing and AIDS and so on. It was - he has no choice. He is a


slave to the drugs. He has to rob you, your house, my house, to
survive, right? Narconon takes a person like that, restores his life,

gives him honesty, gives him a life back, ability to work, no longer a
burden on the taxpayer. That's fantastic. That is fantastic. You're


actually giving a person his life back.

PRESENTER:
But once again, you still haven't - When will you be able to present us
with hard, black-and-white evidence signed by someone in the Department
of Health saying yes, Narconon is a good and effective treatment for
drug rehabilitation and it has no strings of any other kind attached to
it? When?

JOHN WOOD:
In about five minutes. It's in my boot. Do you want to hang on?

PRESENTER:
Well, we'll have to leave it there for the moment but, John, if you want
to bring it in I'll certainly have a look at it.

JOHN WOOD:
Ah, uh I will. With pleasure.

PRESENTER:
Thank you very much indeed. That's John Wood, from Narconon - pulling
the case - thank you very much for joining us.

JOHN WOOD:
Thank you.

[END]

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