Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease

[tedw]

https://tinyurl.com/y43pv285

Well researched book. It does not support what AA teaches. If the author is wrong, I think you owe it to the public to read it and refute it.

[tedw]

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:43:21 AM UTC-7, tedw wrote:
> https://tinyurl.com/y43pv285
>
> Well researched book. It does not support what AA teaches. If the author is wrong, I think you owe it to the public to read it and refute it.

Maybe that book shoud be banned?

[CW]

OK

[CW]

On 23 May 2022 tedw wrote:

OK

[tedw]

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:43:21 AM UTC-7, tedw wrote:

Review:

4.0 out of 5 stars A thought provoking book
Reviewed in the United States on February 19, 2015
Verified Purchase
It was a well constructed book with thoughts and idea backed up with sufficient evidence to disprove the common belief in America of Alcoholism being a disease. It was brilliantly done

[badgolferman]

I think the general public should read it and when nothing else works for
them then they can come to AA and we will teach them what has worked for
us. Too often people are forced into AA when they’re not ready yet or even
when they’re not really alcoholic. Those are the ones which the program
doesn’t work for.

[tedw]

I think one of the points of the book is that an "Alcoholic" the way AA defines it does not even exist.

Can you offer some scientific proof that kind of Alcoholic even exists?

Is it possible that the kind of Alcoholic AA describes is hogwash? Yes, a lot of people believe it. But then again a lot of people once believed the earth was flat.

[tedw]

Remember, you don't know who is reading this so I think it is incumbent upon you to provide proof so I don't mislead them.

[Socrates]

On 5/23/2022 12:47 PM, tedw wrote:

> Is it possible that the kind of Alcoholic AA describes is hogwash?

Prolonged consumption of copious amounts of alcohol often lead to a
PHYSICAL CONDITION call hypoglycemia. The manifestations fit what AA
describes and tries to overcome via abstinence and/or faith in a higher
power.

> Yes, a lot of people believe it. But then again a lot of people once
> believed the earth was flat.

Choosing sobriety via AA (with or without a higher power) has saved a
lot of lives. Some enjoy the fellowship while others opt for simple self
control with added introspect and understanding.

You on the other hand have made whining about the choices of others,
choices which have absolutely no impact on your life whatsoever, a
personal obsession. That alone proves you have no business trying to
help anyone other than your pathetic self. The earth isn't flat, but YOU
are (and have been for a LONG time).

Be nice if there was a God to help you but......., you get one shot and
you have blown it.

[tedw]

Got it Hypoglcemia causes alcoholism. Why doesn't webmd list that as a cause?

https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/addiction-treatment-recovery/alcohol/what-causes-alcohol-addiction

Or pehaps you are saying alcoholism causes hypoglycemia. If so, what causes alcoholism?

[badgolferman]

I don’t need to provide any proof. Those who are truly alcoholic understand
and those who are not won’t.

You constantly harp on alcoholics being physically different and demanding
proof of that. The Big Book itself calls that a theory and doesn’t claim
any proof, but says the theory explains a lot about why we act the way we
do.

The AA program doesn’t deal with the physical aspect of our illness except
to suggest abstinence. The 12 Steps are all about inducing a psychic change
and spiritual awakening. It’s our thinking which must change. But all bets
are off if we indulge in drinking again.

[Robert Dye]

CW.

That's great.

[tedw]

Yes, It is merely a THEORY. And the theory is wrong.

"But all bets are off if we indulge in drinking again". I would say your AA brainwashing is complete.

The truth (reality) is quite different. If the so-called Alcoholic gets right with God, he will be incapable of drinking alcohol to excess. You never will believe that probably. The years of going to meeting and repeating a certain line have done it's work. Brainwashed and Hypnotized.

[tedw]

And if you ever do wake up, you will be astonished how ferverntly you held on to your false beliefs.

[Socrates]

On 5/23/2022 5:06 PM, badgolferman wrote:

> The AA program doesn’t deal with the physical aspect of our illness except
> to suggest abstinence. The 12 Steps are all about inducing a psychic change
> and spiritual awakening. It’s our thinking which must change. But all bets
> are off if we indulge in drinking again.

And if we do "indulge in drinking again" it involves putting liquid
chemicals into our body with the potential to shorten and/or end our
physical existence, at which point a spiritual awakening is no longer
relevant except to note that it failed.

Not all psychic change involves religion.

Dr. William Silkworth treated more than 40,000 alcoholics, he suggested
that alcoholics could recover if they could experience an entire psychic
change.

“On the other hand, and strange as this may seem to those who do not
understand, once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who
seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving
them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for
alcohol.”

A psychic change gives you the ability to respond to life differently.
It is the element in the 12 Steps that is referred to as "a spiritual
experience, a spiritual awakening, *OR* an attitude adjustment."

[tedw]

So a spiritual experience is powerful enough to enable you to be abstinent but it is not powerful enough to enable you to be temperate in all your ways. I guess somebody forget to tell the Apostle Paul:

King James Bible
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things

[badgolferman]

The Big Book says we do not have a monopoly on recovery and that this
is only one way to recover. Yet you keep claiming there is only one
way -- your way. Why do you keep insisting alcoholics should drink
again? Is it to justify your own actions? What you are telling us is
no different than telling someone who has been bitten by a brown
recluse spider to place his hand in a box full of them just to test his
faith in God. Doesn't that seem insane?

[Robert Dye]

Ted,
Why do you continue casting your pearls before us swine?

We get it.

You don't believe Jesus is God The Father, as Trinitarians assert.

You don't believe alcoholism is a disease, as Alcoholics Anonymous officially teaches, brooking no dissent whatsoever.

You do not believe Alcoholics are physically any different than non-alcoholics, as Alcoholics Anonymous officially teaches, brooking no dissent whatsoever.

You believe an alcoholic who has had a true spiritual awakening will be restored by God to the state where he or she can use beverage alcohol in moderation, contrary to what Alcoholics Anonymous officially teaches, brooking no moderation.

You believe that most Alcoholics Anonymous members are brainwashed, and that Alcoholics Anonymous has us under their nefarious mind-control.

You believe Alcoholics Anonymous members are addicted to meetings.

You have explained all these things.

Numerous. Times.

You have chased some of us with these notions as far as the Gates of Insanity or Death.

And you have done this for twenty years now.

How many converts have you made? How many souls have you saved from the evil grip of Alcoholics Anonymous?

I'd have thought you would have sought greener pastures by now.

I hear there's a thing called 4channel, or 8channel, and something called "Reddit."

I hear some of those folks are caught in the grip of racism and White Nationalism.

Maybe if you go help them, they can come to understand that if they get a new relationship with God, they will be able to indulge in casual racism or White Nationalism, without having to blow up buildings or shoot up Black folks in grocery stores, or at least, only on very rare occasions.

Don't you think you might have a better chance of saving souls over there?

[Skeezix LaRocca]

On 5/24/22 06:49, badgolferman wrote:

>
>
> The Big Book says we do not have a monopoly on recovery and that this
> is only one way to recover. Yet you keep claiming there is only one
> way -- your way. Why do you keep insisting alcoholics should drink
> again? Is it to justify your own actions? What you are telling us is
> no different than telling someone who has been bitten by a brown
> recluse spider to place his hand in a box full of them just to test his
> faith in God. Doesn't that seem insane?

Hold on, not so fast and stop the clock...True, Ted W. feels there is
only one way to recover, but you have said countless times that the
*real_alcoholic* has to have a spiritual cleansing, or whatever else the
BB claims in order to recover...You may also be guilty.


--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed

[badgolferman]

Skeezix LaRocca wrote:

>On 5/24/22 06:49, badgolferman wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>The Big Book says we do not have a monopoly on recovery and that
>>this is only one way to recover. Yet you keep claiming there is
>>only one way -- your way. Why do you keep insisting alcoholics
>>should drink again? Is it to justify your own actions? What you
>>are telling us is no different than telling someone who has been
>>bitten by a brown recluse spider to place his hand in a box full of
>>them just to test his faith in God. Doesn't that seem insane?
>
>Hold on, not so fast and stop the clock...True, Ted W. feels there is
>only one way to recover, but you have said countless times that the
>*real_alcoholic* has to have a spiritual cleansing, or whatever else
>the BB claims in order to recover...You may also be guilty.

Spiritual awakening -- which basically means a psychic change or new
perspective. What problem do you have with that?

[Skeezix LaRocca]

I don't have a problem with it, but there are many who do and yet recover.

[Socrates]

I have already wasted far too much time trying to have a reasonable
conversation with you. The Padre's response to you nailed it. Bye bye.

[badgolferman]

Skeezix LaRocca wrote:

>On 5/24/22 08:02, badgolferman wrote:
>>Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
>>
>>>On 5/24/22 06:49, badgolferman wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The Big Book says we do not have a monopoly on recovery and that
>>>>this is only one way to recover. Yet you keep claiming there is
>>>>only one way -- your way. Why do you keep insisting alcoholics
>>>>should drink again? Is it to justify your own actions? What
>>>>you are telling us is no different than telling someone who has
>>>>been bitten by a brown recluse spider to place his hand in a
>>>>box full of them just to test his faith in God. Doesn't that
>>>>seem insane?
>>>
>>>Hold on, not so fast and stop the clock...True, Ted W. feels
>>>there is only one way to recover, but you have said countless
>>>times that the *real_alcoholic* has to have a spiritual
>>>cleansing, or whatever else the BB claims in order to
>>>recover...You may also be guilty.
>>
>>
>>Spiritual awakening -- which basically means a psychic change or new
>>perspective. What problem do you have with that?
>
>I don't have a problem with it, but there are many who do and yet
>recover.

That's fine, there are other ways. But that doesn't make it the AA way.

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/24/2022 5:49 AM, badgolferman wrote:

>
> The Big Book says we do not have a monopoly on recovery and that this
> is only one way to recover. Yet you keep claiming there is only one
> way -- your way. Why do you keep insisting alcoholics should drink
> again? Is it to justify your own actions?

Ding! Ding! Ding! Give that man a cigar!

[Skeezix LaRocca]

I never said it wasn't the AA way, though there are those in AA that
don't march in lockstep to what the BB says...More power to them, if it
works for them.

I agree with your definition of a SA...For me, it was a change in the
way I thought... Where it came from, who knows...There are many
possibilities..An old timer I know claimed his SA came when the judge
said if he ever came before him again, he was going to prison..Was it
fear, a supernatural being, or whatever ?...Who cares, it worked.

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/24/2022 9:07 AM, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:

>
> I agree with your definition of a SA...For me, it was a change in the
> way I thought... Where it came from, who knows...There are many
> possibilities..An old timer I know claimed his SA came when the judge
> said if he ever came before him again, he was going to prison..Was it
> fear, a supernatural being, or whatever ?...Who cares, it worked.
>

I agree with this 100%.

For me it started with my DUI... the first time I'd ever been arrested.
I was already at the end of my rope with alcohol, and this was the final
push to check myself into detox. My bottom. For the very first time, I
admitted to my innermost self that I needed help, and I was just going
to turn my life over to these people and do whatever they told me to do.
From that moment of surrender, my compulsion to drink was immediately
and completely lifted. Whether it was a miracle from God, or simply the
ultimate moment of clarity, I really don't know or care.

[Ted H]

I agree with both of you, with respect to my own situation.

But it seems to me that some understanding of the source/proximate
cause of my awakening could have implications for others who are
trying to "get it."

--
Ted H.

[tedw]

"You don't believe Jesus is God The Father, as Trinitarians assert" - Yes, not only that they are misusing the Bible to promote the idea.


" You have chased some of us with these notions as far as the Gates of Insanity or Death." --That doesn't even mean anything. Who is near the gates of insanity or death? Me-no. Any of you- not that I can see. Yes, I provide a counterpoint to what you hear in AA and what would not be tolerated there.

"How many converts have you made? How many souls have you saved from the evil grip of Alcoholics Anonymous"---- You are lying again. I have never said anyone is in the grip of EVIL Anonymous. I have not said AA is EVIL ever. As a matter of record, I have said AA performs a service for society but that not everything it teaches is true. If you truly are a person striving to lead a Godly life, I suggest you acknowledge that. But honestly. Rob, by the way you act I have my doubts about that. Prove my suspicions wrong by admitting your wrong , and that I have never said Alcoholics Anonymous is Evil. It is wrong about some things things , definitely.

"Maybe if you go help them, they can come to understand that if they get a new relationship with God, they will be able to indulge in casual racism or White Nationalism, without having to blow up buildings or shoot up Black folks in grocery stores, or at least, only on very rare occasions"

There must be an English word for what you are trying to do here. By some twisted logic you suggest I would be ok with casual racism or White Nationalism. Racism is not the same and engaging in legal appropriate use of alcohol which you freely acknowledge you do. And in your heart you know that is true yet you do it anyway.


I believe the word might be False Equivalence :

"They are both felidae, mammals in the order Carnivora,[8] therefore there's little difference between having a pet cat and a pet jaguar."[9]
The "false equivalence" is in an oversimplification[3] of the factors that make an animal a suitable pet.[10]

[tedw]

More lying.

"Why do you keep insisting alcoholics should drink again"

I don't insist alcoholics should drink again. I don't say that and have never said that. Badgolferman is lying about that and Charlie is seconding the motion.

What I have said is this: Most "alcoholics" should not drink again. The reason being is they merely substituted their addiction to alcohol and not resolved the deep underlying problem they have. For them it could be dangerous, and I don't recommend it. However, for the "Alcoholic" who has had an authentic spiritual awakening (Repentance and belief in Jesus Christ), there is no danger. They are fully recovered.

If you are threatened by that truth, then it is your problem not mine.

As far as justifying my actions, I don't have to. I have done nothing wrong. I just don't buy into the AA brainwashing.

[Charlie M. 1958]

It seems to me, Ted, that it's like any other mysterious element of
life. Those who /need/ an explanation for things tend to look at an
all-powerful God as the source. No offense to true believers, but that
belief does allow one to put things in a neat little box with a bow on
top. If you believe everything is part of God's plan, and everything
happens for a reason, there are far fewer difficult questions left to
ponder. This seems to work well for many people, while others are okay
with uncertainty.

[tedw]

Your lying Mike. I do not insist that alcoholics should drink again, and never have. It is just a flat out lie.

You never want to have a drink ever that is fine with me. I don't insist you do it. I don't insist anyone do it.

Stop your lying.

[CW]

Yeah? I was worried I was over-thinking it. :)

[Skeezix LaRocca]

I'm just barely smart enough to know that I'm dumb enough not to have
all the answers and don't need to justify the unknown with the belief
that there is a wizard behind the curtain making all the moves,
although, that is a possibility.

[tedw]

LaRocca is admitting he doesn't know. I was once like that. Admitting you don't know is honest.

And in time LaRocca may come to believe. It happened to me. It could happen to him.

[CW]

On 24 May 2022 tedw wrote:

> LaRocca is admitting he doesn't know. I was once like that. Admitting
> you don't know is honest.

Which begs the question: Why did you stop being honest?

[tedw]

At one point in my life, many years ago, I did not know like LaRocca.

That is being open minded. However, I did ask God if He existed to reveal himself to me. I am happy to report that over time He has, many times actually. So once I did not know, and now I do. Honest both ways.

Amazing grace! how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch; like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

[badgolferman]

It’s true tedw. You keep saying alcoholics who have had a “true spiritual
awakening” are cured and can drink moderately again. There’s no way to know
unless the alcoholic picks up that drink and tests their relationship with
God. You did it and that is fine, congratulations to you. But by constantly
telling people this you will tempt them to try it and some will give it a
shot, only to find out their life has spiraled into the gutter again. What
possible good can such a statement do for people who don’t even know if
they are right with God according to your standards?

If this is not your intent then maybe you should consider delivering your
message in a different way because everyone here reads you the same way.

[Robert Dye]

This. Will. ***Never***. Happen.

[tedw]

No, it's not true and you are lying. You said "Why do you keep insisting alcoholics should drink
again?"

I don't say that and you should retract the statement. I do not INSIST alcoholics should drink again. I never have. That is a bold face lie.

I do say that if you have had an authentic spiritual awakening (meaning repentance and belief in Jesus Christ as the redeemer) you can do that-and you would not want to descend into drunkeness or anything displeasing to the Lord.. I don't insist that anyone drink. If a person is redeemed they know that, and it is up to them. If they want to be a teetotaler that is fine with me; if they drink a small glass of wine at a wedding ceremony or a small glass of wine with dinner (hopefully, remembering Him when they do) at times that is fine with me also. It is a matter of personal conscience.

A person who has had an experience with the Living God knows it without any doubt. I am just stating what I know to be true. You have a problem with that. It doesn't square up with your brainwashing.

BTW, The Big Book of AA does say this:

"We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic; but you can quicky diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking.Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take you long to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of the jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition"

If a person is right with God, they would not even want to go to a barroom and have a Screwdriver. That is not an appropriate use. And I wouldn't suggest it.

If a person has had an authentic spiritual awakening and wants to test whether they can drink a small glass of wine with their meal they can. I don't insist they do it.

Padre, apparently, has a little wine with the Eucharist without any ill effects and probably so do a lot of Catholic AA members.

You don't have to believe as I do if you don't want to, but I am telling the truth. And I have every right to do it.

Probably not at AA meetings though. I would risk being stoned to death as a heretic.

[tedw]

On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-7, badgolferman wrote:

If a person is truly right with God, the good that would come from it is this:

They would know the truth and the truth would set them free. They would no longer believe something which is false. They would wake up from their hypnotic trance.

[tedw]

And I assume Mike since you are a fan of the Big Book and every word in it is true, then you would be for anyone who is not sure they are an alcoholic, to go to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking?

How irresponsible is that? Won't they find out that their life has spiraled into the gutter?

Are you for that? If not, then I guess you are against what the Big Book says.

[CW]

On 24 May 2022 tedw wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 8:36:24 AM UTC-7, CW wrote:
>> On 24 May 2022 tedw wrote:
>>
>> > LaRocca is admitting he doesn't know. I was once like that. Admitting
>> > you don't know is honest.
>> Which begs the question: Why did you stop being honest?
>
> At one point in my life, many years ago, I did not know like LaRocca.
>
> That is being open minded. However, I did ask God if He existed to
> reveal himself to me. I am happy to report that over time He has, many
> times actually. So once I did not know, and now I do. Honest both ways.
>

And so was that the last time you admitted you didn't know something? Or
was that the one and only time?

[Robert Dye]

Ted, are you sure you are not spiraling into some sort of episode?

You kind of seem to be obsessing.

I feel a bit more guilty, now that it occurs to me you may be suffering from some form of mental illness.

When is the last time you saw your doctor? Has he made any recent modifications to your medications?

Did you have to stop taking something due to an insurance problem?

I'm getting a bit concerned.

[tedw]

ha, ha, ha.

Oh my God. I wonder if your right. Do you think I can get the kind of counseling I need here on alt.recovery.aa. Are you offering to give me some Pastoral Counseling?

[badgolferman]

I am absolutely for the truth, the truth of whether the person has really
lost control of their drinking. That test will help them know if they have
any doubt. If they remain in doubt as they recover they will always wonder
if they can drink safely again and some will try. If they can drink safely
there is no reason they should be in AA. Their message will be very harmful
to newcomers.

I don’t care that you drink once in a while, but I do care that you think
other recovered alcoholics haven’t recovered to your standards. That is a
place most of us don’t want to go to.

And you do insist. You’re doing it right now by constantly arguing the same
point over and over.

[Robert Dye]

No.

Call your doctor.

I'm quite serious.

[tedw]

Your lying and you don't want to admit your lying. I don't insist anyone do anything so I can't be insisting "alcoholics" should drink. If you don't want to admit your lying ok, but you are.

[tedw]

I believe you are. So should I call a psychiatrist or a psychologist?

[Robert Dye]

Whoever has been prescribing for you, Ted.

Whichever doctor whose care you have been under.

[Socrates]

On 5/24/2022 8:47 AM, tedw wrote:

https://postimg.cc/YvJzCb6X

https://i.postimg.cc/YSSn8Phw/ag5.jpg

[tedw]

What should I tell him my symptoms for concern are?

[tedw]

So if a person went out and took the AA "drinking test" and failed , it would mean they were an alcoholic.

What is they went out and took the same "drinking test" and passed after having a Spiritual Awakening. What would they be then?

[Ted H]

On Tue, 24 May 2022 13:16:24 -0700 (PDT),

> > I don???t care that you drink once in a while, but I do care
> > that you think other recovered alcoholics haven???t recovered
> > to your standards. That is a place most of us don???t want to
> > go to.
> >
> > And you do insist. You???re doing it right now by constantly

> > arguing the same point over and over.
>
> So if a person went out and took the AA "drinking test" and
> failed , it would mean they were an alcoholic.
>
> What is they went out and took the same "drinking test" and
> passed after having a Spiritual Awakening. What would they be
> then?

Lucky.

--
Ted H.

[tedw]

What if they did it more than once as the book suggests?.

[Ted H]

On Tue, 24 May 2022 13:22:26 -0700 (PDT),

tedw <tedwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 1:19:38 PM UTC-7, Ted H wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 May 2022 13:16:24 -0700 (PDT),
> > tedw <tedwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:08:53 PM UTC-7, badgolferman wrote:
> >
> > > > I am absolutely for the truth, the truth of whether the
> > > > person has really lost control of their drinking. That
> > > > test will help them know if they have any doubt. If they
> > > > remain in doubt as they recover they will always wonder if
> > > > they can drink safely again and some will try. If they can
> > > > drink safely there is no reason they should be in AA.
> > > > Their message will be very harmful to newcomers.
> > > >
> > > > I don???t care that you drink once in a while, but I do
> > > > care that you think other recovered alcoholics haven???t
> > > > recovered to your standards. That is a place most of us
> > > > don???t want to go to.
> > > >
> > > > And you do insist. You???re doing it right now by
> > > > constantly arguing the same point over and over.
> > >
> > > So if a person went out and took the AA "drinking test" and
> > > failed , it would mean they were an alcoholic.
> > >
> > > What is they went out and took the same "drinking test" and
> > > passed after having a Spiritual Awakening. What would they
> > > be then?

> > Lucky.

> What if they did it more than once as the book suggests?.

*Very* lucky.

--
Ted H.

[badgolferman]

Either they were never alcoholic or they have been cured of all addictions.
That means you are free to do some controlled experimenting with drugs
again. Let me know how that goes.

[tedw]

You have a good sense of humour.

[tedw]

I have not experiment with drugs and never have said it is appropriate (Well, at least for the last 46 years).

However, I did have a gall bladder attack last December and they gave me a shot of morphine. Nothing bad happened. No allergy kicked in.

[tedw]

I would think advising someone to do some controlled experimenting with Drugs is not compatable with living a Christian life.

[badgolferman]

Okay, you win tedw. AA is a false organization and spreads lies about
alcoholism. It’s also a breeding ground for atheists and homosexuals. The
literature has been hijacked by the Woke folk and no one cares about God or
authentic spiritual awakenings anymore. Now what would you have us do?

[tedw]

1) Yes , AA is wrong about the alcoholic being physically different.
2) A breeding ground for atheists and homosexuals. I don't think I have ever said that.
If people want to be atheists, they can be if they want. I once was. It's not a very fulfilling or useful life on the whole; but God wants volunteers.
3) The Literature has been hijacked by the woke folks. Yes, as a matter of fact it has been. I guess you could speak up about it at meetings if you wanted to. I have before. I have not been to an AA meeting in 5 + years. Some might not like it , some might. I have posted article on line about AA losing it way as well as videos:

https://youtu.be/sAiKSU9Zxug
https://youtu.be/sdDG-BrG6g0
https://newswithviews.com/news_worthy/news_worthy21.htm

But that's just me. AA has really gone downhill. Probably not much can be done about it.

[Robert Dye]

This right here, Ted.

This is what I'm talking about.

This isn't like you.

There were a few of these posts last week. They were neither angry, nor resentful, nor trying to convince someone of one of your odd notions.

No long cut-and-paste of some obscurity to support your position.

Just . . . kind of . . . conversational . . .

Not like you AT ALL.

(You may remember that I commented on it at the time, asking if the doc had adjusted your meds.

You replied I was hurting your feelings.)

Then you started getting more intense again, more bedbug-crazy.

I found myself remembering a fellow I knew who was manic-depressive.

He was more-or-less fine on his meds , if a bit . . . . subdued. . .

But if he went off the meds, he began to be a bit more lively. He would banter. He seemed to "get" humor a bit more. He could even be conversational.

And he would start to seem more creative.

But as this went on . . . wow.

Bedbug-crazy would come up fast.

I have not thought of him in 25 years or more, but your posts kept me thinking of him.

I hope you have someone to help you out, Ted.

[tedw]

Ok. Why don't you keep me in your prayers then?

You might also add "and Lord show me where I am wrong"

[badgolferman]

Is this your solution? Watch videos?

I have a better idea. Why don’t you run for president of AA and start
fixing it from the inside? Just imagine how many of us would be on your
side and follow every word you say. We could return to the First Edition
stories and have revivals like the Pentecostals or whoever it is plays with
snakes. But instead we would play with alcohol as we prove our authentic
spiritual experiences are real and ready to be put to the test.

[Robert Dye]

Ah.

Okay.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

I was just thinking you might not be such a bad guy, if it was just that you were struggling with some mental issues.

The alternative is you are just an ass.

That works, too.

[tedw]

OK

[tedw]

Maybe if you ponder it, there may be another alternative.

[tedw]

How different is watching a video from going to a speaker meeting? In fact, if you videoed a speaker meeting it would be the same. Probaby are some online. I haven't checked.

[tedw]

Actually , Mike. You have given me a good idea. I think I will have a an AA speaker meeting right here at my house with me as the speaker. Coming soon-maybe.

[weary flake]

On 5/23/22 10:43 AM, tedw wrote:
> https://tinyurl.com/y43pv285
>
> Well researched book. It does not support what AA teaches. If the author is wrong, I think you owe it to the public to read it and refute it.

nearly a blind link. To link to a URL, say:

https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Drinking-Myth-Alcoholism-Disease/dp/0520067541/

Some skipping around it doesn't show much research. Without reading it,
I'm gonna suggest it's purpose it to oppose the rule of "beware of the
first drink", and advocates moderate drinking as the solution to
alcoholism.

It talks about the past, but advice from the past is "do not drink if you
can't control your drinking", AKA the AA solution of "avoid the first drink".

[weary flake]

I'm also skeptical of claims about how much the American Revolutionaries
supposedly drank at the Continental Congress: the anecdotes of excess could
have been Tory tall tales, as well as claims by wine dealers with "support
independence, buy our madeira!" But "wet" authors don't seem to have any
skepticism when it comes to alcohol.

[weary flake]

On 5/23/22 7:44 PM, tedw wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:34:19 PM UTC-7, tedw wrote:

>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 5:06:51 PM UTC-7, badgolferman wrote:
>>> tedw <tedwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 11:15:19 AM UTC-7, badgolferman wrote:

>>>>> tedw <tedwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/y43pv285
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well researched book. It does not support what AA teaches. If the author
>>>>>> is wrong, I think you owe it to the public to read it and refute it.
>>>>>>

>>>>> I think the general public should read it and when nothing else works for
>>>>> them then they can come to AA and we will teach them what has worked for
>>>>> us. Too often people are forced into AA when they’re not ready yet or even
>>>>> when they’re not really alcoholic. Those are the ones which the program
>>>>> doesn’t work for.
>>>>
>>>> I think one of the points of the book is that an "Alcoholic" the way AA
>>>> defines it does not even exist.
>>>>
>>>> Can you offer some scientific proof that kind of Alcoholic even exists?
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible that the kind of Alcoholic AA describes is hogwash? Yes,
>>>> a lot of people believe it. But then again a lot of people once believed
>>>> the earth was flat.
>>>>
>>> I don’t need to provide any proof. Those who are truly alcoholic understand
>>> and those who are not won’t.
>>>
>>> You constantly harp on alcoholics being physically different and demanding
>>> proof of that. The Big Book itself calls that a theory and doesn’t claim
>>> any proof, but says the theory explains a lot about why we act the way we
>>> do.
>>>
>>> The AA program doesn’t deal with the physical aspect of our illness except
>>> to suggest abstinence. The 12 Steps are all about inducing a psychic change
>>> and spiritual awakening. It’s our thinking which must change. But all bets
>>> are off if we indulge in drinking again.
>> Yes, It is merely a THEORY. And the theory is wrong.
>>
>> "But all bets are off if we indulge in drinking again". I would say your AA brainwashing is complete.
>>
>> The truth (reality) is quite different. If the so-called Alcoholic gets right with God, he will be incapable of drinking alcohol to excess. You never will believe that probably. The years of going to meeting and repeating a certain line have done it's work. Brainwashed and Hypnotized.
>

You worship alcohol.

> And if you ever do wake up, you will be astonished how ferverntly you held on to your false beliefs.

If I were to follow your advice, I may not wake up at all.

[Dexter]

tedw wrote:

> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 12:47:13 PM UTC-7, tedw wrote:
> > On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 11:15:19 AM UTC-7, badgolferman wrote:
> > > tedw <tedwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > https://tinyurl.com/y43pv285
> > > >
> > > > Well researched book. It does not support what AA teaches. If the
> > author > > is wrong, I think you owe it to the public to read it and
> > refute it. > >
> > > I think the general public should read it and when nothing else works
> > for > them then they can come to AA and we will teach them what has
worked
> > for > us. Too often people are forced into AA when they’re not ready yet
> > or even > when they’re not really alcoholic. Those are the ones which the
> > program > doesn’t work for.
> > I think one of the points of the book is that an "Alcoholic" the way AA
> > defines it does not even exist.
> > Can you offer some scientific proof that kind of Alcoholic even exists?
> >
> > Is it possible that the kind of Alcoholic AA describes is hogwash? Yes, a
> > lot of people believe it. But then again a lot of people once believed the
> > earth was flat.
>

> Remember, you don't know who is reading this so I think it is incumbent upon
> you to provide proof so I don't mislead them.
-----------------------------

Teddy, you couldn't possibly be more transparent. Moreover, you're not nearly
as influential as you believe yourself to be.

[weary flake]

The above are personal attacks in the guise of medical advice. A common left wing
tactic to avoid saying anything meaningful.

>>>>> ha, ha, ha.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh my God. I wonder if your right. Do you think I can get the kind of counseling I need here on alt.recovery.aa. Are you offering to give me some Pastoral Counseling?
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>> Call your doctor.
>>>>
>>>> I'm quite serious.

In case you're serious, I've been reading Ted for years and I haven't noticed
him saying anything different here, I even have his book. His book manages to only
have a couple paragraphs of skepticism about AA, but books aren't usenet. He
was lards full of trashy anti-AA stuff on usenet at the time his book was
published so reading his book was quite a contrast. I forget the title, I put
it with my books on drugs and alcohol.

>>> I believe you are. So should I call a psychiatrist or a psychologist?

Perhaps he suggests a Scientologist?

>> Whoever has been prescribing for you, Ted.
>>
>> Whichever doctor whose care you have been under.
>
> What should I tell him my symptoms for concern are?

Obsession with what usenet has to say about you? But shouldn't a usenet patient
see a usenet doctor?

[Robert Dye]

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 3:56:59 PM UTC-5, weary flake wrote:
> On 5/24/22 12:52 PM, tedw wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-7, Robert Dye wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Ted, are you sure you are not spiraling into some sort of episode?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You kind of seem to be obsessing.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I feel a bit more guilty, now that it occurs to me you may be suffering from some form of mental illness.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When is the last time you saw your doctor? Has he made any recent modifications to your medications?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Did you have to stop taking something due to an insurance problem?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm getting a bit concerned.
> The above are personal attacks in the guise of medical advice. A common left wing
> tactic to avoid saying anything meaningful.

If you say so, Weary.

I back back and forth on what I think is happening with Ted.

There are these very rare glimmers of humor, or of being able to appreciate humor.

It never lasts for long.

Beside that, it always amuses me to hear someone describe me as a left-wing guy.

I suppose I am, now.

But I was registered GOP from 1978 - 2019, and helped with GOP campaigns long before I could vote.

I don't feel as though I have moved.

But something seems to have done so.

[weary flake]

On 5/26/22 2:05 PM, Robert Dye wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 3:56:59 PM UTC-5, weary flake wrote:
>> On 5/24/22 12:52 PM, tedw wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-7, Robert Dye wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Ted, are you sure you are not spiraling into some sort of episode?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You kind of seem to be obsessing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I feel a bit more guilty, now that it occurs to me you may be suffering from some form of mental illness.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When is the last time you saw your doctor? Has he made any recent modifications to your medications?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did you have to stop taking something due to an insurance problem?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm getting a bit concerned.
>> The above are personal attacks in the guise of medical advice. A common left wing
>> tactic to avoid saying anything meaningful.
>
> If you say so, Weary.
>
> I back back and forth on what I think is happening with Ted.
>
> There are these very rare glimmers of humor, or of being able to appreciate humor.
>
> It never lasts for long.
>

I can only repeat what I said earlier, today's Ted is the same Ted as over 10
years ago, though I haven't been reading lately:

" In case you're serious, I've been reading Ted for years and I haven't noticed
" him saying anything different here, I even have his book. His book manages to only
" have a couple paragraphs of skepticism about AA, but books aren't usenet. He
" was lards full of trashy anti-AA stuff on usenet at the time his book was
" published so reading his book was quite a contrast. I forget the title, I put
" it with my books on drugs and alcohol.

> Beside that, it always amuses me to hear someone describe me as a left-wing guy.
>

I aim to please.

> I suppose I am, now.
>
> But I was registered GOP from 1978 - 2019, and helped with GOP campaigns long before I could vote.
>
> I don't feel as though I have moved.
>
> But something seems to have done so.

The GOP is the same now as it was in the past, and so is the news media the same
now as in the past. And I didn't say you were leftist just that it is a left wing
tactic. It is also a left wing tactic to describe someone suggesting that someone
else is using left wing tactics as necessarily accusing that someone of being a
leftist. But pardon me if this comes across as leftist.

[Socrates]

On 5/26/2022 3:02 PM, weary flake wrote:

> The GOP is the same now as it was in the past, and so is the news media the same
> now as in the past. And I didn't say you were leftist just that it is a left wing
> tactic. It is also a left wing tactic to describe someone suggesting that someone
> else is using left wing tactics as necessarily accusing that someone of being a
> leftist. But pardon me if this comes across as leftist.

Pardon denied.

[tedw]

I am not anti- AA. It performs a service and I am certainly glad it is there to keep drunks off the street. Most of the original AA' ideas are quite good and I don't have a problem with them. The idea that alcoholics are physically different however I am opposed to; it is better to be truthful than convince people of something that is a lie.

I have written at length however how modern AA has lost it way with its Gay AA meetings. Most of the original founders would agree with me I think. Dr Bob's son certainly didn't like it.

Do I think AA goes far enough? No, I don't.

[weary flake]

On 5/23/22 11:16 PM, tedw wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 9:21:33 PM UTC-7, Socrates wrote:

>> On 5/23/2022 5:06 PM, badgolferman wrote:
>>
>>> The AA program doesn’t deal with the physical aspect of our illness except
>>> to suggest abstinence. The 12 Steps are all about inducing a psychic change
>>> and spiritual awakening. It’s our thinking which must change. But all bets
>>> are off if we indulge in drinking again.

>> And if we do "indulge in drinking again" it involves putting liquid
>> chemicals into our body with the potential to shorten and/or end our
>> physical existence, at which point a spiritual awakening is no longer
>> relevant except to note that it failed.
>>
>> Not all psychic change involves religion.
>>
>> Dr. William Silkworth treated more than 40,000 alcoholics, he suggested
>> that alcoholics could recover if they could experience an entire psychic
>> change.
>>
>> “On the other hand, and strange as this may seem to those who do not
>> understand, once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who
>> seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving
>> them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for
>> alcohol.”
>>
>> A psychic change gives you the ability to respond to life differently.
>> It is the element in the 12 Steps that is referred to as "a spiritual
>> experience, a spiritual awakening, *OR* an attitude adjustment."
>
> So a spiritual experience is powerful enough to enable you to be abstinent but it is not powerful enough to enable you to be temperate in all your ways. I guess somebody forget to tell the Apostle Paul:
>
> King James Bible
> And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things

Temperance is moderation in what it is good and abstinence in what is
bad. Thusly, abstain from alcohol to find freedom.

[tedw]

That's great, abstain if you want. But that is not what temperance means according to Merriam Webster:
temperance noun
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tem·​per·​ance | \ ˈtem-p(ə-)rən(t)s , -pərn(t)s \
Definition of temperance
1: moderation in action, thought, or feeling : RESTRAINT
2a: habitual moderation in the indulgence of the appetites or passions
b: moderation in or abstinence from the use of alcoholic beverages

[Robert Dye]

You never actually *read* the stuff you post to support your positions, do you?