Challenging Teen Challenge
Chaz
I have, I found it to be ridiculous and ineffective.
Frankly, I feel they are misleading desperate people. I experienced
them as untruthful and self-serving.
Thoughts.
Thanks.
Chaz
jimbo
> Has anyone attended Teen Challenge?
Is that where they use live and hands on sex education?
Jimbo
Chaz
No... it is a cultish Christian recovery program... or so they think.
~Tim~
Correct. Teen Challenge conducts weekend car washes and can also be
found pleading for donations, in the name of Jesus to save the
nation's youth from drug abuse in front of Walmarts. Most members of
Teen Challenge are deluded Jesus Freak druggies rather than alkies.
tedw
I've never been to a teen challenge meeting. However "misleading
desperate
people" accurately describes almost all AA meetings.
Charlie M. 1958
>
> I've never been to a teen challenge meeting. However "misleading
> desperate
> people" accurately describes almost all AA meetings.
>
tedw, meet Mark Ihde. Mark Ihde, meet tedw.
Chaz
> On Jun 21, 9:46 pm, Chaz <doral...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone attendedTeenChallenge?
>
> > I have, I found it to be ridiculous and ineffective.
>
> > Frankly, I feel they are misleading desperate people. I experienced
> > them as untruthful and self-serving.
>
> > Thoughts.
>
> > Thanks.
>
> > Chaz
>
> desperate
> people" accurately describes almost all AA meetings.
Funny... my experience with AA has been great. Not sure what
experience you have had. I havent become a droid to the program but
rather use it effectively in my life. My GF goes to alanon and has
found great support in work through her issues too. Not just
pertaining to alcohol or alcoholics... but many areas of life like
relationships, work, self-discipline.
Chaz
For those not familiar, Teen Challenge is a Christian Bible based
organization for adults that attempts to provide a program of
recovery
from drugs and alcohol. It was founded in an amazing way in 1959 on
the streets of New York and has evolved into a world-wide
organization.
Yet, my experience with them was less than favourable. The results I
observed were less than favourable. I am now over 16 months sober.
My program of receovery basically involves most of what Teen
Challenge
said would not work (namely the 12 step approach). More
importantly... I am recovering... in every sense of the word...
emotionally, relationally, financially, socially.
Teen Challenge boasts a success rate of 96%. As an insider... I can
confirm by my own experience and observation that this is far, far,
far, FAR, from the truth. My experience with the organization was
that they did so much posturing and promoting that they hide their
lack of effectiveness with lies and cover-ups. They told us that
their way was the only way. They mocked and belittled 12-step
programs.
Why am I posting this?... well... probably for 2 reasons....
1. I want to come to grips with this disappointing experience by
prompting discussion with any others who have experienced teen
challenge.
2. I want to warn would-be attendees of teen challenge of what I
observed and hopefully spare them the same disaster I experienced.
Thoughts?
Thanks.
Chaz
tedw
>
> - Show quoted text -
What about AA's misleading teaching that Alcholism is a
"disease"?
What about AA's acceptance and condoning of immoral
lifestyles, i.e. homosexuality?
What about the rampant sexual immorality in AA?
for starters
tedw
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not everyones experience is positiive:
The Code of Silence: Why does AA try hide it's origins?
On February 3rd, 1990 I attended my first AA meeting. I was not to
drink alcohol or do drugs from that day on, and I remain sober to this
day.
I was in my mid-twenties and had never been to any 12-step program in
my life. I was looking for help and just didn't know where to go. A
friend suggested I go and check out this meeting. He had told me these
people helped him with the same problems I described to him. I had no
idea what I was walking into. Little did I know it would be a blessing
and a curse.
Looking back, I guess it was the appearance of a bond within the group
that attracted me. The people seemed very close and loving towards one
another. As time went on, I attended the suggested 90 meetings in 90
days. I had made a fresh start in my life, and was achieving some
progress. My first six months were a time of awakening and radical
shifts in my life. I could sense a renewing of my mind and body.
I always love to poor myself into whatever I am doing in my life. I
wish to know all I can about whatever things I participate in, and AA
would be no different. I studied all the books and literature that
were available. This was the beginning of the end.
As I studied the available literature, I learned a great deal about
the founders and as well as the Christian history of AA. As I read and
learned, I would share this newfound info and its impact in meetings.
I had also met a woman in an Alano club and started dating her. I
greatly enjoyed learning and thinking again. My reasoning was simple--
if the founders of the program created it, they surely would reveal
the goals and secrets of this 12-step magic. The flowing opinions and
rumors roaming about were plentiful. So I studied and searched. During
this time, I had received a very intense lack of support from within
the fellowship. At times, I was warned that thinking could get me
drunk. This concept confused and angered me. Thinking was bad, wrong
and destructive? I quickly was forced to find a rebuttal for this
attack. I would reply, all thinking can't be bad; I think the 12-steps
helped me, so how can thought be bad?
At the same time, I was warned that a relationship with this woman
would most likely end in my return to the alcohol or drugs. It seemed
I was going against the grain and I just got started.
By this time, I had a year sober and was still moving on with my
reading and my relationship with my girlfriend. I had started reading
the Bible. I saw in some of the history texts that the founders read
the Bible often as a source of inspiration. So why shouldn't I read
it? I had never read it before, so I did. As time went on in my
relationship, my girlfriend and I talked a lot about spiritual issues.
Morality, honesty, dignity, willingness and commitment were always
spoken about with high regard in meetings. However, as I shared my
newfound source of inspiration--the Bible-- in the fellowship and
meetings, I was met with hostility. On one hand, members of the
fellowship would state whatever works, yet on the other hand many
seemed angry at what worked for me. I now felt unwelcome, and was
often challenged about my beliefs.
I took some college classes on philosophy, critical thinking and
logic. I found that I really enjoyed learning and expanding my mind.
But this opened Pandora's box as well. As time went on, and I began to
utilize my new thinking and logic skills, I began to hear many self-
defeating notions coming from within the fellowship. I was also the
butt of much anger.
One man, who once helped me at my beginning of sobriety, now angrily
attacked my way of thinking and spiritual foundation. The irony was
that I had merely adopted the same Christian foundation as the
founders. It was simple; God was the source for sobriety and change.
My girlfriend and I were getting closer and talked a lot about the
insanity within the fellowship. Things such as doorknobs, the group
and anything could be "termed" God. I was in love and happy with my
life. When I did spend time around the fellowship, I saw that my lack
of attendance of meetings was met with skepticism. I had a good job
and was busy with school. Time was a rare commodity. Yet it was even
suggested to me that I would drink again if my meeting attendance were
kept so low. This confused me, for I was happy, in love, working and
learning. I never stopped sharing hope with newly sober people and
those in need of help. My girlfriend and I helped people whenever we
could.
The longer I was sober and the more I listened, the more I saw that
the fellowship had this groupthink type mentality. I no longer was
stating meaningless phrases. I was giving thought to what I said.
I had stumbled onto a copy of the original manuscript of the Big Book
and studied that. Since I was on the board of directors of this Alano
club I frequented, I suggested that we print and distribute this
manuscript, which was very direct and was not watered down. It also
was not edited as the current edition was. My position was that we
should have any literature for sale at our private club that might
enhance knowledge and understanding of our fellowship. We agreed to
think it over and meet the following week. Much to my surprise, when
we met that following week, four representatives from AAWS (Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services) corporate headquarters were there to speak.
My girlfriend was downstairs and waited patiently.
This wasn't happening, this couldn't be happening. Right before my
eyes these representatives were suggesting this information was
harmful and not to be distributed. In logic, we call this form of
argument ad misericordian. They were appealing to the sympathy of the
newcomer to the board. I was still in shock that these trusted
servants would attend a private meeting at a private club and use
their status as a means to accomplish their task.
The other board members quickly were subdued by the assumed
authoritative positions. But I was not. This was a private club under
its own bylaws and private charter. This group of representatives had
no authority in matters dealing with the activities and actions of
this club. Nonetheless, before my eyes, they molded the minds of the
members using fear of outcast from AAWS.
After the meeting, I confronted the group and told them they were in
violation of their own traditions. After we debated some issues, when
their arguments no longer held up, they asked me if I would consider
becoming a representative. They said they needed people like me. To
this day, I find this amusing.
At the same time all this conflict was going on, my relationship with
my girlfriend was having some troubles. It seemed as if my world in AA
was crashing down. I didn't have the desire to drink or use drugs;
this was the furthest thing from my mind. But I started to see things
I never had before. I started to see friends move from one woman to
the next within the same circle of friends. It seemed very odd to me
that they didn't sense a conflict on interest, that no one seemed to
mind. In fact, this behavior was widely accepted amongst the group. It
was type of "wife swapping" in a new way. One of my mentors termed it
a form of "incest". This made sense to me, considering that
relationships with people outside of this group were almost
nonexistent. My girlfriend even commented on this immorality from time
to time.
At one point, I saw myself as an outsider. I didn't think like the
group, I didn't act like the group and I didn't share in the group-
philosophy. It seemed everything they held as sacred was spoken from
within the group itself. The literature contradicted what I was seeing
and hearing in the fellowship. The only conclusion I was left with was
that the fellowship was something other than what the literature spoke
about. In my mind, there was no doubt this was a rumor driven
fellowship, ignorant of its foundation. When I realized this, all hell
broke loose.
I could no longer deny the fact that the more time I had under my belt
sober, the more I saw unhealthy behavior and reasoning amongst my
peers. I saw the notion of being powerless taken to the extreme. The
claim that meetings were important was only coming from within the
meetings. Types of circular reasoning based on superstition ran
rampant. A radical anti-intellectual theme coupled with moral silence
filled the fellowship. There was this silent agreement amongst the
group, raised to an eerie level. No matter what the conduct of a
member, no one ever spoke up. At four years sober, reality met me face
to face.
In my relationship with my girlfriend I also noticed odds things
happening. It wasn't until I started asking leading questions to
others in the group that I came to the truth. We had troubles, but I
assumed nothing abnormal or out of the ordinary for couples. But I
learned she had engaged in two affairs with two men from the group.
These two men not only were regular members of this group, but I knew
them on a first name basis. This was not fatal in and of itself, what
made matters worse was the fact that specific members knew this
behavior was going on and said nothing to me. It was all placed under
the notion It's none of my business. I also saw her being lovingly
accepted as a good outstanding member of the group because she was an
alcoholic. This is the great moral code of silence in the groups
today.
The news of these affairs were painful, but I did not drink over it.
But, while I sought compassion, all I received was concern about my
possible return to alcohol, an assumption that I was incapable of
feeling pain without drinking or using drugs. This was nothing short
of mere lunacy.
It is commonplace in meetings to hear about how someone did a wrong,
yet were celebrated because they didn't drink after doing that wrong.
The phrase still angers me today: But I didn't drink. The I didn't
drink over it mindset was applauded when my x-girlfriend shared about
her emotional turmoil. The true irony was that she induced her own
turmoil and was applauded for her abstinence.
I wish to assure you I have no anger towards AA or the fellowship; I
write out of concern for those engulfed in the 12-step subculture. In
all of my study and historical readings I have found one common theme.
Early AA was about bringing you back to society and living life, not
about creating a subculture and cult-like mentality to dwell in. So
even today you will find some within AA that deny its current trends.
It is akin to a civil war. No one seems to care. No one is listening.
The 75k yearly incomes of AAWS representatives, the contradictory
logic, the ignorance of history, the immorality, the self-defeating
notions of God and the control superstition has on them is meaningless
in the feeling-dominated culture they have created. They feel good and
that's all that matters. The goal is to feel good at any cost,
regardless of the reasoning and ramifications. Some in the fellowship
truly believe without the fellowship or meetings they will not
survive. Strange how it hasn't dawned on any of them that they heard
that in a meeting or from the fellowship itself.
May God bless and help those who are seeking recovery to become
healthy, moral and productive citizens once again.
Anonymous
Author's note: You are welcome to do as you wish with my article (that
includes gso.org). It is a gift. We should never run from truth, but
embrace it. If I can ever help an alcoholic, I will. This includes
dignity, truth and honor.
JimB
> On February 3rd, 1990 I attended my first AA meeting. I was not to
> drink alcohol or do drugs from that day on, and I remain sober to this
> day.
Skipped the whole honesty part, did ya?
JimB
tedw
I have no idea what your talking about. Its not my testimony but
someone
elses.
Isnt it strange how myopic most AA's are. They are so identified with
the
program, they cant see anything wrong with it. Very unhealthy in my
opinion.
tedw
wrote:
> tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Isnt it strange how myopic most AA's are. They are so identified with
> > the
> > program, they cant see anything wrong with it. Very unhealthy in my
> > opinion.
>
> really are a stupid fuckup.
Well, it hasnt taught you manners or stopped your gutter english has
it.
tedw
wrote:> I've been looking for rampant sexual immorality in AA for years. Please
> point me to some meetings where it occurs!
Any Gay AA meeting for starters.
JimB
Nope. Just kept him away from the communion chug!
JimB
Chaz
>
> - Show quoted text -
So like, in other words, "I know you are but what am I"?
I don't get it... I am questionning the validity of Teen Challenge,
not making a moral value judgement. You sound pretty judgemental of
AA with very general statements.
Nobody in AA has ever suggested I be sexually immoral or gay. Even
so... Don't gays and sexually immoral need sobriety too? There was
actually a gay guy in Teen Challenge. They were trying to help him
the same as everyone else there.
AA does not force anyone to accept that alcoholism is a disease. In
my experience, all I have discovered is that if we take the approach
to alcoholism like it is a disease... and treat it like we would a
disease... people stay sober and recover.
Hide their roots? Not according to Dick B and many others. Do a
search on "Dick B Talks"... a retired lawyer living in hawaii. He is
an AA Historian and acknoledges very plainly the christian roots of
AA.
Teen Challenge may very well have been a great approach and a great
organization at one point. I am only stating that my experience with
them was quite negative. Hey... the exec director drinks socially.
How dangerous is that as an example? I know of countless coverups and
false posturing for donations. I was asked to participate in these
things. They called it "outreach". They were "out reaching" for
money.
The AA approach has worked for millions of people. To me, it works
because it uses principles of truth like the Bible does. So some
Christians get offended or threatened by the fact that God can be
acknowledged in a way that isnt exactly what a mainline Christian
does? It does not make Christianity wrong.
I am a Christian and I find that many, many christians are knee-jerk
defensive about their faith and feel threatened if someone else finds
enlightenment in a way that is not the same as their own
interpretation. Yet this attitude is exactly what Jesus opposed in
the pharisees. There are tons and tons of Christians who find a
connection wtih God in AA, NA, ALANON, or whatever A they are a part
of.
Can AA be erroneous in some of its ways or in the practices of some AA
groups? Of Course!!! Are there fanatics? Absolutely! Like any
group of people looking for hope and meaning, anyone can go off the
deep end. The Crusaders did. Jim Bakker did. Jimmy Swaggert did.
It is a frailty of the human condition.
I have got closer to God through AA. Yes, that is God, Jehovah, of
the Bible. And his son only son, Jesus Christ. AA does not threaten
my Christianity... it serves as a meaningful expression of it.
I find more honesty in an AA meeting amonst seekers than I did in my
Teen Challenge experience. The Teen Challenge experience I had
ejected people after 2 months if they weren't "saved" by then. Thats
a recovery program? My only affiliation with AA is my desire to stop
drinking.
Well I have gone on longer than I intended.
Ciao.
Chaz
Chaz
wrote:
> tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > the
> > program, they cant see anything wrong with it. Very unhealthy in my
> > opinion.
>
> really are a stupid fuckup.
Fank... Buddy.... get off the fence! Quit holding back! Speak your
mind! (LOL).
Chaz
Again... so we limit recovery to heteros? Jesus didnt limit salvation
to any narrowly defined profile.
A gay person can't seek truth? Or do we simply expect them to conform
first.... and then they are allowed to embrace truth... but only as we
define it?
tedw
>
> - Show quoted text -
One of the problems with AA is that it condones homosexuality and is
accepting of it.
Im quite familiar with Dick B and have spoken to him several times. He
is totally
opposed to AA's acceptance of homosexuality and he does not like the
way
AA has covered up its Christian origins; thats why he wrote his
books.
Do you think God is approving and accepting of homosexuality?
Read the story "Tightrope" in the 4th edition of Alcoholics Anonymous,
and you
will see how low AA has sunk in regards to promoting the aberrant and
perverted
life style.
Exactly what Christian principle is involved in leading a life of
homosexuality?
I really couldnt comment on your Teen Challenge experience and I wont
defend them. But after 30 years I am quite able to comment on AA.
As far as the idea that Alcoholism is a "disease". It is false
teaching, plain and
simple. It is not a disease and never has been, never will be. It is
definetely not
honest to promote the idea that alcoholism is a "disease' which goes
on in all
AA meetings.
For the most part AA addicts people to meetings and they substitute
the comfort of the friendships they find there for the comfort they
previously found in Drink and/or drugs.
As a person claiming to be a Christian, how do you feel about the AA
teaching of making
anything a "higher power", including a doorknob or a lightbulb. Or
havent you been around AA long enough to hear those things yet?
cord...@yahoo.com
http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/ I have also linked your post
to it so others may have an easier time locating your post.
cord...@yahoo.com
Challenge- http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/02/did-you-have-bad-experience-at-teen.html
tedw
Sure , a gay person can seek truth. There are many ex-gays who have
admitted
to thier sinful lifestyle, repented,and gone on to live normal lives.
One of the many truths
they have to see is that homosexuality is a perversion and that they
werent born that way.
Thats why AA is so harmful. It endorses the lifestyle with its many
gay AA meetings. Very
unspiritual.
tedw
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Hey... the exec director drinks socially.
How dangerous is that as an example? "
So if the exec director drinks socially in a responsible manner
without getting drunk,
whats wrong with that? Maybe he's cured of his drinking problem if he
had one.
Is he telling people to go get drunk?
Tex
>One of the problems with AA is that it condones homosexuality and is
>accepting of it.
>
Does it really do this? Or does it recognize homosexuality is a fact
of life and homosexuals like people of other sexual orientations
become/are alcoholics too. That they too can recover from alcoholism
through the practice of the 12 steps.
>
>Im quite familiar with Dick B and have spoken to him several times. He
>is totally
>opposed to AA's acceptance of homosexuality and he does not like the
>way
>AA has covered up its Christian origins; thats why he wrote his
>books.
>
Dick B. as an individual is entitled to his personal likes and
dislikes just as any other member or non-member as far as that goes
is. Being a historian doesn't take away from the fact he breaks the
traditions and turns a buck in doing so.
>Do you think God is approving and accepting of homosexuality?
>
Personally I don't think God exists.
>Read the story "Tightrope" in the 4th edition of Alcoholics Anonymous,
>and you
>will see how low AA has sunk in regards to promoting the aberrant and
>perverted
>life style.
>
One can look at as such or one can look at as saying AA is inclusive
and not exclusive, aa can work for an individual regardless of their
sexual orientation.
>Exactly what Christian principle is involved in leading a life of
>homosexuality?
>
Brotherly love, turning the other cheek? Seriously neither excludes or
is required to be an aa member nor is either a requirement for
sobriety.
>I really couldnt comment on your Teen Challenge experience and I wont
>defend them. But after 30 years I am quite able to comment on AA.
>
Comment all you like...the 30 years isn't necessary to do so one way
or the other.
>As far as the idea that Alcoholism is a "disease". It is false
>teaching, plain and
>simple. It is not a disease and never has been, never will be. It is
>definetely not
>honest to promote the idea that alcoholism is a "disease' which goes
>on in all
>AA meetings.
>
Illness and spiritual malady come to mind as how it's described by AA
...how individual members view it is not something aa has control
over. You, yourself being a good example of that. As to saying it's
not or never will be, well that is a stretch even for you. Science may
figure it out but hasn't done so yet...has that changed?
>For the most part AA addicts people to meetings and they substitute
>the comfort of the friendships they find there for the comfort they
>previously found in Drink and/or drugs.
>
Well you got part of it correct with this one...AA does (up front)
offer up the Fellowship as a substitute. A sober lifestyle instead of
a drunken lifestyle...As for addicting people to meetings each person
is free to attend or not attend as many or few as they individually
decide.
>
>As a person claiming to be a Christian, how do you feel about the AA
>teaching of making
>anything a "higher power", including a doorknob or a lightbulb. Or
>havent you been around AA long enough to hear those things yet?
>
As I'm not the person claiming to be a christian and who isn't one I
can say for certain my feelings towards the suggestion I can use my
own conception a gateway instead or a barrier. If another wants to use
a doorknob or lightbulb and someone else wants to use a cartoon
character like god why should I take that away or block them from
doing so.
Next thing you know when they start the exclusive instead of inclusive
and start tossing the homosexuals, non-christians, etc. out the doors
of aa how long do you think it will be before ex-cons living with
their moms that get personal permission from jesus to drink a little
wine now n' then will be booted.
Charlie M. 1958
> People like tedw regard their personal beliefs as objective truths. They
> respond to other viewpoints they same way you or I would respond to an
> assertion that the world is flat.
You mean it's not???
Tex
Sober it's flat...drunk it's going round n' round.
(David P.)
>
> ...how do you feel about the AA teaching of making
> anything a "higher power", including a doorknob
The A.A. Big Book says "doorknob" & "lightbulb"?
.
.
--
tedw
I never said they should toss them out. They shouldnt toss out thieves
either.
Both should be told thier lifestyle is wrong.
tedw
Not all AA teaching is in the Big Book. Any honest fair minded person
will agree
the doorknob and lightbulb idea are promoted in AA.
Tex
How do you know god ain't a lightbulb or a doorknob?
(David P.)
> fair minded person will agree the doorknob and
> lightbulb idea are promoted in AA.
"The opinions expressed in this meeting are the
members own, and do not necessarily reflect
those of Alcoholics Anonymous."
.
.
--
sharx35
"tedw" <te...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1182996163....@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Promoted by a FEW, temporarily, for newbies.
>
>
>
>
>
Craig S.
news:nqa6831k8ihkflte8...@4ax.com...
> How do you know god ain't a lightbulb or a doorknob?
I'm counting on it.
tedw
> "tedw" <t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text
More than a few I would say but no way to prove it.
Tex
Craig S.
(David P.)
> >
> > > Not all AA teaching is in the Big Book. Any person'll
> > > agree the doorknob/lightbulb idea are promoted in AA.
> >
> > Promoted by a FEW, temporarily, for newbies.
>
How conveeeeeeeeeenient!
.
.
--
Tex
wrote:
>"Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:btt783h2rs1ql34n7...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:36:36 -0400, "Craig S." <cspu...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:nqa6831k8ihkflte8...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >> How do you know god ain't a lightbulb or a doorknob?
>> >
>> >I'm counting on it.
>> >
>> Counting on is or isn't?
>
>Same difference.
>
Like Frank you are a hard man!
Chronocidal Charlie
Hash: SHA1
Yew left off the "from the shoulders up part." Purposefully? ;-)
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Tex
<cle...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Tex wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:06:39 -0400, "Craig S." <cspu...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:btt783h2rs1ql34n7...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:36:36 -0400, "Craig S." <cspu...@charter.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:nqa6831k8ihkflte8...@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you know god ain't a lightbulb or a doorknob?
>>>>> I'm counting on it.
>>>>>
>>>> Counting on is or isn't?
>>> Same difference.
>>>
>> Like Frank you are a hard man!
>
>Yew left off the "from the shoulders up part." Purposefully? ;-)
>
Actually as soon as I hit 'send now' I had a thought of how that might
set off a few of the stunted studs here abouts. :)
I meant it along the lines of emotionally firm....or thump
strong....or hardcore like my marine buddy.
F.H.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tex wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:06:39 -0400, "Craig S." <cspu...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:btt783h2rs1ql34n7...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:36:36 -0400, "Craig S." <cspu...@charter.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:nqa6831k8ihkflte8...@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you know god ain't a lightbulb or a doorknob?
>>>>> I'm counting on it.
>>>>>
>>>> Counting on is or isn't?
>>> Same difference.
>>>
>> Like Frank you are a hard man!
>
> Yew left off the "from the shoulders up part." Purposefully? ;-)
Intuitively? :)
Tex
wrote:
I was trying to win the fishing contest and FH you beat me out using
my bait.
Chaz
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh please. How wise does it really sound a Director of a Recovery
program drinking. Would it not be wiser to abstain from this activity
as an example to his "students"? Does the Bible not talk about
leading by example? Does the Bible not talk about those in leadership
being held to a higher standard? It also just does not make any
practical sense. Even if he can handle it.... why be so selfish to do
this while those around you are struggling with it? My family is
considerate enough not to tempt me with alcohol. Surely this does not
need clarification.
Chaz
Not in my AA experience. In fact... I do not know one person who has
longterm sobriety or recovery who uses a lightbulb, doorknob, soap
dish, or bag of nails for a higher power.
The lightbulb-higher-power notion is in my experience rhetoric of
those who feel opposed to or feel threatened by AA. Sure there may be
the odd nut who uses a lightbulb or whatever but surely it is the rare
exception.
I know plenty of Christians who I would not want to emulate yet I am
still a Christian. Just because some wayward Christians go off and
start some wierd or destructive cult... like whats his name from the
70's.... Jones? ya.... Jim Jones. He does not define my Christianity
any more than Lightbulb-Guy defines my AA experience.
Chaz
> accepting of it.
>
> is totally
> opposed to AA's acceptance of homosexuality and he does not like the
> way
> AA has covered up its Christian origins; thats why he wrote his
> books.
>
>
> and you
> will see how low AA has sunk in regards to promoting the aberrant and
> perverted
> life style.
>
> homosexuality?
>
> defend them. But after 30 years I am quite able to comment on AA.
>
> teaching, plain and
> simple. It is not a disease and never has been, never will be. It is
> definetely not
> honest to promote the idea that alcoholism is a "disease' which goes
> on in all
> AA meetings.
>
> the comfort of the friendships they find there for the comfort they
> previously found in Drink and/or drugs.
>
> teaching of making
> anything a "higher power", including a doorknob or a lightbulb. Or
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow.... lots to reply to here... for time sake... will limit to the
last paragraph you posted...
> As a person claiming to be a Christian, how do you feel about the AA
> teaching of making
> anything a "higher power", including a doorknob or a lightbulb. Or
> havent you been around AA long enough to hear those things yet?- Hide quoted text -
>
How do I feel about someone making anything a higher power? Well... I
feel a few things...
1. Acknowledging the mere existence of something greater than one's
self is a healthy first step for any of us. We need to get out of
ourselves in order to see the light of day. Addicts and alcoholics
are inherently self-centered. If it takes temporarily a step of faith
to simply acknowledge that there is somthing out there... I see no
harm or danger in that. Thats where I started as a young Christian.
I simply had a sense that there was a greater being and eventually
found that what the Bible taught me about who God was was what I
believed. And continue to learn more to believe.
2. It is not my business to tell people what they have to or can't
believe. For too long, in my experience, the Church has presumed to
be all-knowing authority on a lot. I feel it is my responsibility to
live for and serve God to the best of my ability. Pray for wisdom and
direction and do my part when he directs me. I am not a self-
appointed mouthpiece. In my Christian experience, I feel I have far
to often been prompted to "Witness" rather than simply "Be" a
witness.... which is what the bible tells us we will receive power to
do... meaning... "you will receive power to BE my witnesses"... I feel
more compelled to BE what God calls me to be... not to tell everyone
else what they should be. In AA... we refer to attraction versus
promotion.
3. If someone else has a higher power different from mine, it does
not threaten my faith at all. My sponsor, in fact, does not identify
God the same way I do.... yet. He acknowledges that there is a spirit
of the universe of some kind. He describes and acknowledges God
exactly the same way I do but does not call him God, Jehovah, or
Jesus. My feelings on that are .... who am I to say what phase of his
journey he is on? Who am I to say he isnt exactly where God wants him
to be. Years ago, he was on drugs, booze, and in jail. How do I know
that God did not put me in his life to be an influence to let him know
God better and lead him closer? I am not affraid to admit that I
simply do not know. I do not feel anymore that I need to be a "power
closer" for God and "get everyone saved" on my timeline. It is God's
timeline and my job is to be his willing, obedient servant.
4. God has given me serveral Higher Powers. None of them are
substitutes for Him as God and my ultimate higher power. Some days...
the Higher Power that I feel led to rely on is my fellow AA members,
friends, my Sponsor, or a meeting, or some reading, or online
fellowship. None of these are God. They are all, however, powers
greater than my self on my own in my head feeling hurt and lonely.
Hey... even this message board can be a power greater than myself
because it gets me out of myself and into fellowship. Even with
people I may not agree with. The Bible talks about the power of
fellowship. The power of agreement. Those are powers greater than
myself. Yet God is still God and above all of those things.
And thats just for starters! more to come. Chaz
Chaz
> Exactly what Christian principle is involved in leading a life of
> homosexuality?
>
I honestly don't know of a Christian Principle that is involved in
leading a life of homosexuality. I do know that Jesus loves them and
frankly... even though I don't understand homosexuality... I have got
to know a number of homosexuals in recent years... including one at
Teen Challenge... and I cannot see what they do any more wrong than
anyone else.
I don't see anything in the Bible that condones hatred or judgement
and I find plenty of that in the church.... and pretty much everywhere
else. Jesus teaching in the Sermon on the Mount is pretty clear to me
about what attitude we are to strive for.... Judge not, and you shall
not be judged... hating is as bad as killing... just to name two. The
church tolerates these imperfections quite readily. Yet we seemt to
draw the line at homosexuality.
I am not advocating that anyone actively defy God and his ways. I am
just curious as to why it seems that homosexuality is a pet issue of
Christians when there are other flagrant issues that are tolerated.
If AA accepts and tolerates homosexuals... it is not indication to me
that I should be one. AA's focus is on recovery from alcoholism.
Just like a mechanic's focus is on fixing your car. A mechanic does
not try to prune your trees... his scope is limited to fixing cars.
AA does not, in my experience, promote or confront the homosexual
issue. They are a one-issue organization.
Chaz
> Chaz- Here is a link to my web blog about Teen Challenge.http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/ I have also linked your post
> to it so others may have an easier time locating your post.
Thanks Cordal.... will check it out.
Tex
>The lightbulb-higher-power notion is in my experience rhetoric of
>those who feel opposed to or feel threatened by AA. Sure there may be
>the odd nut who uses a lightbulb or whatever but surely it is the rare
>exception.
How so feel threatened or opposed...I see more of such from the 'god'
people than the other way round...I forget or can't recall but doesn't
it say in the BB or 12x12 one might show a little caution when dealing
with someone getting direct personal messages from god? Don't recall
anywhere warning about someone's individual conception nor limiting
what it can be called or even be for that matter....if someone nut or
not wants to use a bread box and it makes sense to them and they
attain & maintain freedom from alcohol hell I don't see why it should
upset anyone or how that would make someone less of an aa...or less
sober....maybe bar them from the Cartoon Plantation the Cartoon
Character run 'upstairs', But so what? Ya got to be dead to even get a
shot at that supposedly...and I thought aa was suppose to be about a
sober way of life ...as in living...not some rewards program where the
awards come after you're fucking dead. Fuck me! I'm confused!
Chaz
>
> As far as the idea that Alcoholism is a "disease". It is false
> teaching, plain and
> simple. It is not a disease and never has been, never will be. It is
> definetely not
> honest to promote the idea that alcoholism is a "disease' which goes
> on in all
> AA meetings.
Ok Ted... how is it that you can argue that you are simply right and
AA is wrong and give no backing whatsoever? And frankly, as I have
stated before, I couldnt care less if Alcoholism is actually a disease
or not. For me, and millions of others, it behaves like one and if we
treat it like one we stay sober. I have been diagnosed with an
emotional disease called Depression. It is no more or less tangible
or diagnosable than alcoholism. Yet the entire medical community
recognizes emotional illnesses like depression and anxiety in the same
way they recognize alcoholism.
I, in fact have a specialist, an MD, who treats my alcoholism like a
disease. He too is a recovering alcoholic. He prescribes meetings,
recovery programs, and where necessary, medication and procedures to
help his patients recover. It works.
Just because you feel you are right does not make us all wrong. Most
AA people I have experienced are well-meaning people who want to get
sober and recover. I have experienced very few, if any, who are out
to deceive people. And I am no dummy. I have other things I can do
for fulfillment. Most of my friends are non-AA members. Frankly, I
do not socialize in AA very much. Yet not one of my Christian friends
or any friend for that matter has expressed concern over what impact
AA is having on me. On the contrary, they are pleased.
>
> For the most part AA addicts people to meetings and they substitute
> the comfort of the friendships they find there for the comfort they
> previously found in Drink and/or drugs.
>
Oh man, you paint with a pretty broad brush. I dont mean to be too
blunt here but you statement is completely ignorant. "For the most
part"... give me a break! I am a busy professional with an active
life apart from AA. I work about 60 hours a week, spend time with my
kids, care for my elderly parents, have a great relationship with my
girlfriend, and go to a few meetings a week if possible. How does
that fit your profile of "for the most part". In fact, your
description does not describe virtually anyone I know in AA.
Most of us are recovering our lives outside of AA because of what we
get from AA. Most of us are getting our families, finances, health,
and friendships back on track. This is a far cry from us becoming
addicts to meetings and AA friendships as a substitute for drugs.
Maybe you are describing your experience with AA but it is not typical
in my experience.
Chaz
Chaz
> Tex <twizz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Next thing you know when they start the exclusive instead of inclusive
> > and start tossing the homosexuals, non-christians, etc. out the doors
> > of aa how long do you think it will be before ex-cons living with
> > their moms that get personal permission from jesus to drink a little
> > wine now n' then will be booted.
>
>
> People like tedw regard their personal beliefs as objective truths. They
> respond to other viewpoints they same way you or I would respond to an
> assertion that the world is flat.
>
Tex and Bill... Ditto your comments.
As a Christian, I am saddened to see a fellow Christian like Ted being
so narrow-minded and judgemental. This is not the way I have
understood Jesus Christ to be. Thanks for your honest posts and
contribution to this thread.
BTW... we may find out one day that the world is indeed flat. Not
much surprises me any more.
Chaz
Chaz
Absolutely! I leave a lot of stuff behind at meetings. Even well-
meaing people can say wrong things at a meeting.
Chaz
Tex...hommes.... man.... great spew!
Am a little unclear on your weave but I take a few things from it.
Bottom line is that I make no issue, nor do I feel any issue should be
made about what someone chooses as a higher power. By way of
observation... not many continue with the bread box HP theory for too
long... not that I have observed anyway. My experience is that most
mature recovering AAs arrive at something more meaningful as an HP
than a bread box. But not to say that if the bread box is working for
you... that is not any of my business to judge. Now dont expect me to
understand! But if the bread box is working for someone.... go with
it.
You asked how so feel threatened or opposed? What I was trying to say
is that I find that a lot of people in my experience who define HP as
God in a conventional sense often oppose others seeing God
differently. It seems to be from a standpoint of "If you are right
about your concept of god being a bread box, then maybe I am wrong. I
don't feel comfortable being wrong so I need to oppose your concept of
God. Therefore I am going to be defensive and argue strenuously that
God is not a Bread Box!!!"
Ok... so I frankly do not believe that God is a Bread Box. And
frankly again, if someone told me they thought God was a bread box, I
would at the very least be curious if not concerned as to why they
would think that because it certainly seems quite unlikely and
certainly atypical. For me at least, it does not threaten the fact
that I believe that God is not a bread box... and I respect the other
individual enough to accept that is where he is at. An who
knows....maybe God is somehow manifesting himself to the other guy via
a bread box. In the Bible... it says that God could make rocks and
stones testify of him... is that any less bizarre than a bread box.
Yet still atypical and I sticking with unlikely.
If someone did continue with the diefied bread box theology.... I may
simply take the Dr. Phil approach and in time ask them, "How's that
working for you". One of two things is likely to happen. 1) God will
have manifested himself to them through the bread box. or 2) God will
not. Either way... the individual has the right to be on his own
pathway of discovery. If God wanted me to help him out... or if the
guy felt compelled to get my take on his theology... as a faithful
servant, I would be there for him.
Well... I guess I have woven all over the place on this one and
frankly dont know if I have made any sense. But there it is for now.
Chill bro. Its all good.
Chaz
Tex
>On Jun 29, 12:37 am, Tex <twizz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 05:10:22 -0000, Chaz <doral...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >The lightbulb-higher-power notion is in my experience rhetoric of
>> >those who feel opposed to or feel threatened by AA. Sure there may be
>> >the odd nut who uses a lightbulb or whatever but surely it is the rare
>> >exception.
>>
>> How so feel threatened or opposed...I see more of such from the 'god'
>> people than the other way round...I forget or can't recall but doesn't
>> it say in the BB or 12x12 one might show a little caution when dealing
>> with someone getting direct personal messages from god? Don't recall
>> anywhere warning about someone's individual conception nor limiting
>> what it can be called or even be for that matter....if someone nut or
>> not wants to use a bread box and it makes sense to them and they
>> attain & maintain freedom from alcohol hell I don't see why it should
>> upset anyone or how that would make someone less of an aa...or less
>> sober....maybe bar them from the Cartoon Plantation the Cartoon
>> Character run 'upstairs', But so what? Ya got to be dead to even get a
>> shot at that supposedly...and I thought aa was suppose to be about a
>> sober way of life ...as in living...not some rewards program where the
>> awards come after you're fucking dead. Fuck me! I'm confused!
>
>Tex...hommes.... man.... great spew!
>
>Am a little unclear on your weave but I take a few things from it.
>
Heck...I'm a little unclear myself and it's my weave.
>Bottom line is that I make no issue, nor do I feel any issue should be
>made about what someone chooses as a higher power. By way of
>observation... not many continue with the bread box HP theory for too
>long... not that I have observed anyway. My experience is that most
>mature recovering AAs arrive at something more meaningful as an HP
>than a bread box.
I'm not so sure I could box'em into a carton such as
mature...nevertheless how could one's concept need to be anymore
meaningful?
Ok...I follow your weave as you put it, I think, and most likely I
would agree; with the addition being some arrive at point of realizing
as it says in the appendices II of the BB a personality change
sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism ( there it is
again:recovery from alcoholism) and having this arrive as you put it
at the realization it need not be a *bread box* nor need it be
god...merely an individual concept of their own of something greater
than themselves...the line, "Our more religious members call it
"God-consciousness.", leaves one to make the leap to there being
members that aren't religious...thus opening the door to labeling
their HP/Power Greater something which I suppose to one of the more
religious would be almost if not foreign or silly maybe...which from
my experience is where the conflict/confusion is give birth...or as I
would understand it with more clarity for myself is what we have at
the very least and most likely even more are two different animals so
to speak sharing the same pen and fortunately there is room for both.
But not to say that if the bread box is working for
>you... that is not any of my business to judge. Now dont expect me to
>understand! But if the bread box is working for someone.... go with
>it.
>
One such as myself ...could say the same towards a more religious
members 'god'...don't expect me to understand and if it is working for
you go with it.
>You asked how so feel threatened or opposed? What I was trying to say
>is that I find that a lot of people in my experience who define HP as
>God in a conventional sense often oppose others seeing God
>differently. It seems to be from a standpoint of "If you are right
>about your concept of god being a bread box, then maybe I am wrong. I
>don't feel comfortable being wrong so I need to oppose your concept of
>God. Therefore I am going to be defensive and argue strenuously that
>God is not a Bread Box!!!"
>
I think you have flip-flopped the example here if I'm following this
...still it comes across the same from whichever end of the stick you
start the journey from. Plus, you make it clear now as to what you
meant by threatened or opposed...the visual picture has more clarity
when I think of meetings and attending meeting or not attending
meetings....my experience is those who have the belief they will be
struck drunk if they do not attend meetings have these view you
describe towards those who don't or cut back on the number of meetings
they attend.
>Ok... so I frankly do not believe that God is a Bread Box. And
>frankly again, if someone told me they thought God was a bread box, I
>would at the very least be curious if not concerned as to why they
>would think that because it certainly seems quite unlikely and
>certainly atypical. For me at least, it does not threaten the fact
>that I believe that God is not a bread box... and I respect the other
>individual enough to accept that is where he is at. An who
>knows....maybe God is somehow manifesting himself to the other guy via
>a bread box. In the Bible... it says that God could make rocks and
>stones testify of him... is that any less bizarre than a bread box.
>Yet still atypical and I sticking with unlikely.
>
Frankly I don't believe there is a God. I don't think god is a bread
box either though I can see a bread box being a HP for the purposes of
sobriety if in fact it were an individuals concept of such. However I
would say turn it around for a moment and consider for a second how it
would sound and how you might see it if I or someone were to talk down
to you in the sense we said maybe the bread box is manifesting himself
to you via a cartoon character (god)...see at this point we arrive at
the conflict/confusion when all we have to do is simple is let go of
our intolerance and belligerent denial merely accept we are different
animals in the same pen and that the pen has plenty of room for both
of us.
>If someone did continue with the diefied bread box theology.... I may
>simply take the Dr. Phil approach and in time ask them, "How's that
>working for you". One of two things is likely to happen. 1) God will
>have manifested himself to them through the bread box. or 2) God will
>not. Either way... the individual has the right to be on his own
>pathway of discovery. If God wanted me to help him out... or if the
>guy felt compelled to get my take on his theology... as a faithful
>servant, I would be there for him.
>
And again what I read here misses the point....the bread box
doesn't/isn't a diefied theology rather it's an individuals concept of
a Power Greater than themselves...God manifesting or not isn't the
point for a bread boxer so to speak...sobriety and maintaining it is
the point. God showing up or not isn't part of the bread boxer's
deal...most likely a bread boxer doesn't think there is a god to show
up in the first place.
>Well... I guess I have woven all over the place on this one and
>frankly dont know if I have made any sense. But there it is for now.
>Chill bro. Its all good.
>
Of course you have made sense....maybe not to me and maybe not me to
you....but it's out there and who can say if someone might come along
read the deal and say, "Hey, now that half of the deal I can
understand."
Of course most likely around here most responses will be one or both
of us is totally nuts...allowing of course there are any active
responses at all...then too I'm sure there are those amongst us that
can tell us how it really is and it ain't how either of us have put
forth...that is the extremely amusing thing about this place which
chuckles are birthed...as you say it's all good...of course it for the
bad.
>Chaz
Rocco
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tex... Chaz here under a new handle.
Well.... would you agree we have disected this issue every way
imaginable?
Gotta run... gotta go pray to the bread box.
Ciao. Chaz/Rocco
Tex
>
>Tex... Chaz here under a new handle.
>
>Well.... would you agree we have disected this issue every way
>imaginable?
>
>Gotta run... gotta go pray to the bread box.
>
>Ciao. Chaz/Rocco
Just don't pray to the bread, Rocco. I already ate it! It was a late
night I'm not sleepy exercise session...served to pass the time.