Challenging Teen Challenge

51 views
Skip to first unread message

Chaz

unread,
Jun 22, 2007, 12:46:26 AM6/22/07
to
Has anyone attended Teen Challenge?

I have, I found it to be ridiculous and ineffective.

Frankly, I feel they are misleading desperate people. I experienced
them as untruthful and self-serving.

Thoughts.

Thanks.

Chaz

jimbo

unread,
Jun 22, 2007, 8:17:58 AM6/22/07
to
On Jun 22, 12:46 am, Chaz <doral...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone attended Teen Challenge?

Is that where they use live and hands on sex education?
Jimbo

Chaz

unread,
Jun 23, 2007, 2:06:36 AM6/23/07
to

No... it is a cultish Christian recovery program... or so they think.


~Tim~

unread,
Jun 23, 2007, 1:22:58 PM6/23/07
to

Correct. Teen Challenge conducts weekend car washes and can also be
found pleading for donations, in the name of Jesus to save the
nation's youth from drug abuse in front of Walmarts. Most members of
Teen Challenge are deluded Jesus Freak druggies rather than alkies.

tedw

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 12:52:58 PM6/25/07
to

I've never been to a teen challenge meeting. However "misleading
desperate
people" accurately describes almost all AA meetings.

Charlie M. 1958

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 1:17:05 PM6/25/07
to
tedw wrote:

>
> I've never been to a teen challenge meeting. However "misleading
> desperate
> people" accurately describes almost all AA meetings.
>

tedw, meet Mark Ihde. Mark Ihde, meet tedw.

Chaz

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 2:02:29 AM6/26/07
to
On Jun 25, 9:52 am, tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Jun 21, 9:46 pm, Chaz <doral...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone attendedTeenChallenge?
>
> > I have, I found it to be ridiculous and ineffective.
>
> > Frankly, I feel they are misleading desperate people. I experienced
> > them as untruthful and self-serving.
>
> > Thoughts.
>
> > Thanks.
>
> > Chaz
>
> I've never been to ateenchallengemeeting. However "misleading

> desperate
> people" accurately describes almost all AA meetings.

Funny... my experience with AA has been great. Not sure what
experience you have had. I havent become a droid to the program but
rather use it effectively in my life. My GF goes to alanon and has
found great support in work through her issues too. Not just
pertaining to alcohol or alcoholics... but many areas of life like
relationships, work, self-discipline.

Chaz

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 2:06:14 AM6/26/07
to
I attended Teen Challenge a few years ago.

For those not familiar, Teen Challenge is a Christian Bible based
organization for adults that attempts to provide a program of
recovery
from drugs and alcohol. It was founded in an amazing way in 1959 on
the streets of New York and has evolved into a world-wide
organization.


Yet, my experience with them was less than favourable. The results I
observed were less than favourable. I am now over 16 months sober.
My program of receovery basically involves most of what Teen
Challenge
said would not work (namely the 12 step approach). More
importantly... I am recovering... in every sense of the word...
emotionally, relationally, financially, socially.


Teen Challenge boasts a success rate of 96%. As an insider... I can
confirm by my own experience and observation that this is far, far,
far, FAR, from the truth. My experience with the organization was
that they did so much posturing and promoting that they hide their
lack of effectiveness with lies and cover-ups. They told us that
their way was the only way. They mocked and belittled 12-step
programs.


Why am I posting this?... well... probably for 2 reasons....


1. I want to come to grips with this disappointing experience by
prompting discussion with any others who have experienced teen
challenge.


2. I want to warn would-be attendees of teen challenge of what I
observed and hopefully spare them the same disaster I experienced.


Thoughts?


Thanks.


Chaz

tedw

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 8:48:30 AM6/26/07
to
> relationships, work, self-discipline.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What about AA's misleading teaching that Alcholism is a
"disease"?

What about AA's acceptance and condoning of immoral
lifestyles, i.e. homosexuality?

What about the rampant sexual immorality in AA?

for starters

tedw

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 8:53:20 AM6/26/07
to
On Jun 25, 11:02 pm, Chaz <doral...@gmail.com> wrote:
> relationships, work, self-discipline.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not everyones experience is positiive:

http://aagso.org/silence.htm


The Code of Silence: Why does AA try hide it's origins?

On February 3rd, 1990 I attended my first AA meeting. I was not to
drink alcohol or do drugs from that day on, and I remain sober to this
day.

I was in my mid-twenties and had never been to any 12-step program in
my life. I was looking for help and just didn't know where to go. A
friend suggested I go and check out this meeting. He had told me these
people helped him with the same problems I described to him. I had no
idea what I was walking into. Little did I know it would be a blessing
and a curse.

Looking back, I guess it was the appearance of a bond within the group
that attracted me. The people seemed very close and loving towards one
another. As time went on, I attended the suggested 90 meetings in 90
days. I had made a fresh start in my life, and was achieving some
progress. My first six months were a time of awakening and radical
shifts in my life. I could sense a renewing of my mind and body.

I always love to poor myself into whatever I am doing in my life. I
wish to know all I can about whatever things I participate in, and AA
would be no different. I studied all the books and literature that
were available. This was the beginning of the end.

As I studied the available literature, I learned a great deal about
the founders and as well as the Christian history of AA. As I read and
learned, I would share this newfound info and its impact in meetings.
I had also met a woman in an Alano club and started dating her. I
greatly enjoyed learning and thinking again. My reasoning was simple--
if the founders of the program created it, they surely would reveal
the goals and secrets of this 12-step magic. The flowing opinions and
rumors roaming about were plentiful. So I studied and searched. During
this time, I had received a very intense lack of support from within
the fellowship. At times, I was warned that thinking could get me
drunk. This concept confused and angered me. Thinking was bad, wrong
and destructive? I quickly was forced to find a rebuttal for this
attack. I would reply, all thinking can't be bad; I think the 12-steps
helped me, so how can thought be bad?

At the same time, I was warned that a relationship with this woman
would most likely end in my return to the alcohol or drugs. It seemed
I was going against the grain and I just got started.

By this time, I had a year sober and was still moving on with my
reading and my relationship with my girlfriend. I had started reading
the Bible. I saw in some of the history texts that the founders read
the Bible often as a source of inspiration. So why shouldn't I read
it? I had never read it before, so I did. As time went on in my
relationship, my girlfriend and I talked a lot about spiritual issues.
Morality, honesty, dignity, willingness and commitment were always
spoken about with high regard in meetings. However, as I shared my
newfound source of inspiration--the Bible-- in the fellowship and
meetings, I was met with hostility. On one hand, members of the
fellowship would state whatever works, yet on the other hand many
seemed angry at what worked for me. I now felt unwelcome, and was
often challenged about my beliefs.

I took some college classes on philosophy, critical thinking and
logic. I found that I really enjoyed learning and expanding my mind.
But this opened Pandora's box as well. As time went on, and I began to
utilize my new thinking and logic skills, I began to hear many self-
defeating notions coming from within the fellowship. I was also the
butt of much anger.

One man, who once helped me at my beginning of sobriety, now angrily
attacked my way of thinking and spiritual foundation. The irony was
that I had merely adopted the same Christian foundation as the
founders. It was simple; God was the source for sobriety and change.

My girlfriend and I were getting closer and talked a lot about the
insanity within the fellowship. Things such as doorknobs, the group
and anything could be "termed" God. I was in love and happy with my
life. When I did spend time around the fellowship, I saw that my lack
of attendance of meetings was met with skepticism. I had a good job
and was busy with school. Time was a rare commodity. Yet it was even
suggested to me that I would drink again if my meeting attendance were
kept so low. This confused me, for I was happy, in love, working and
learning. I never stopped sharing hope with newly sober people and
those in need of help. My girlfriend and I helped people whenever we
could.

The longer I was sober and the more I listened, the more I saw that
the fellowship had this groupthink type mentality. I no longer was
stating meaningless phrases. I was giving thought to what I said.

I had stumbled onto a copy of the original manuscript of the Big Book
and studied that. Since I was on the board of directors of this Alano
club I frequented, I suggested that we print and distribute this
manuscript, which was very direct and was not watered down. It also
was not edited as the current edition was. My position was that we
should have any literature for sale at our private club that might
enhance knowledge and understanding of our fellowship. We agreed to
think it over and meet the following week. Much to my surprise, when
we met that following week, four representatives from AAWS (Alcoholics
Anonymous World Services) corporate headquarters were there to speak.
My girlfriend was downstairs and waited patiently.

This wasn't happening, this couldn't be happening. Right before my
eyes these representatives were suggesting this information was
harmful and not to be distributed. In logic, we call this form of
argument ad misericordian. They were appealing to the sympathy of the
newcomer to the board. I was still in shock that these trusted
servants would attend a private meeting at a private club and use
their status as a means to accomplish their task.

The other board members quickly were subdued by the assumed
authoritative positions. But I was not. This was a private club under
its own bylaws and private charter. This group of representatives had
no authority in matters dealing with the activities and actions of
this club. Nonetheless, before my eyes, they molded the minds of the
members using fear of outcast from AAWS.

After the meeting, I confronted the group and told them they were in
violation of their own traditions. After we debated some issues, when
their arguments no longer held up, they asked me if I would consider
becoming a representative. They said they needed people like me. To
this day, I find this amusing.

At the same time all this conflict was going on, my relationship with
my girlfriend was having some troubles. It seemed as if my world in AA
was crashing down. I didn't have the desire to drink or use drugs;
this was the furthest thing from my mind. But I started to see things
I never had before. I started to see friends move from one woman to
the next within the same circle of friends. It seemed very odd to me
that they didn't sense a conflict on interest, that no one seemed to
mind. In fact, this behavior was widely accepted amongst the group. It
was type of "wife swapping" in a new way. One of my mentors termed it
a form of "incest". This made sense to me, considering that
relationships with people outside of this group were almost
nonexistent. My girlfriend even commented on this immorality from time
to time.

At one point, I saw myself as an outsider. I didn't think like the
group, I didn't act like the group and I didn't share in the group-
philosophy. It seemed everything they held as sacred was spoken from
within the group itself. The literature contradicted what I was seeing
and hearing in the fellowship. The only conclusion I was left with was
that the fellowship was something other than what the literature spoke
about. In my mind, there was no doubt this was a rumor driven
fellowship, ignorant of its foundation. When I realized this, all hell
broke loose.

I could no longer deny the fact that the more time I had under my belt
sober, the more I saw unhealthy behavior and reasoning amongst my
peers. I saw the notion of being powerless taken to the extreme. The
claim that meetings were important was only coming from within the
meetings. Types of circular reasoning based on superstition ran
rampant. A radical anti-intellectual theme coupled with moral silence
filled the fellowship. There was this silent agreement amongst the
group, raised to an eerie level. No matter what the conduct of a
member, no one ever spoke up. At four years sober, reality met me face
to face.

In my relationship with my girlfriend I also noticed odds things
happening. It wasn't until I started asking leading questions to
others in the group that I came to the truth. We had troubles, but I
assumed nothing abnormal or out of the ordinary for couples. But I
learned she had engaged in two affairs with two men from the group.
These two men not only were regular members of this group, but I knew
them on a first name basis. This was not fatal in and of itself, what
made matters worse was the fact that specific members knew this
behavior was going on and said nothing to me. It was all placed under
the notion It's none of my business. I also saw her being lovingly
accepted as a good outstanding member of the group because she was an
alcoholic. This is the great moral code of silence in the groups
today.

The news of these affairs were painful, but I did not drink over it.
But, while I sought compassion, all I received was concern about my
possible return to alcohol, an assumption that I was incapable of
feeling pain without drinking or using drugs. This was nothing short
of mere lunacy.

It is commonplace in meetings to hear about how someone did a wrong,
yet were celebrated because they didn't drink after doing that wrong.
The phrase still angers me today: But I didn't drink. The I didn't
drink over it mindset was applauded when my x-girlfriend shared about
her emotional turmoil. The true irony was that she induced her own
turmoil and was applauded for her abstinence.

I wish to assure you I have no anger towards AA or the fellowship; I
write out of concern for those engulfed in the 12-step subculture. In
all of my study and historical readings I have found one common theme.
Early AA was about bringing you back to society and living life, not
about creating a subculture and cult-like mentality to dwell in. So
even today you will find some within AA that deny its current trends.
It is akin to a civil war. No one seems to care. No one is listening.
The 75k yearly incomes of AAWS representatives, the contradictory
logic, the ignorance of history, the immorality, the self-defeating
notions of God and the control superstition has on them is meaningless
in the feeling-dominated culture they have created. They feel good and
that's all that matters. The goal is to feel good at any cost,
regardless of the reasoning and ramifications. Some in the fellowship
truly believe without the fellowship or meetings they will not
survive. Strange how it hasn't dawned on any of them that they heard
that in a meeting or from the fellowship itself.

May God bless and help those who are seeking recovery to become
healthy, moral and productive citizens once again.


Anonymous

Author's note: You are welcome to do as you wish with my article (that
includes gso.org). It is a gift. We should never run from truth, but
embrace it. If I can ever help an alcoholic, I will. This includes
dignity, truth and honor.


JimB

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 12:31:44 PM6/26/07
to
On Jun 26, 8:53 am, tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On February 3rd, 1990 I attended my first AA meeting. I was not to
> drink alcohol or do drugs from that day on, and I remain sober to this
> day.

Skipped the whole honesty part, did ya?

JimB

tedw

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 1:20:23 PM6/26/07
to

I have no idea what your talking about. Its not my testimony but
someone
elses.


Isnt it strange how myopic most AA's are. They are so identified with
the
program, they cant see anything wrong with it. Very unhealthy in my
opinion.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

tedw

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 7:14:55 PM6/26/07
to
On Jun 26, 2:58 pm, FranklinRouss...@hotmail.com(Franklin Rousseau)
wrote:

> tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Isnt it strange how myopic most AA's are. They are so identified with
> > the
> > program, they cant see anything wrong with it. Very unhealthy in my
> > opinion.
>
> Yeah, so unhealthy that it's kept me sober for over 15 years. Man, you
> really are a stupid fuckup.

Well, it hasnt taught you manners or stopped your gutter english has
it.

tedw

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 7:15:38 PM6/26/07
to
On Jun 26, 2:57 pm, FranklinRouss...@hotmail.com(Franklin Rousseau)
wrote:

> tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > What about the rampant sexual immorality in AA?
>
> I've been looking for rampant sexual immorality in AA for years. Please
> point me to some meetings where it occurs!

Any Gay AA meeting for starters.

Message has been deleted

JimB

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 9:07:42 PM6/26/07
to

Nope. Just kept him away from the communion chug!

JimB

Chaz

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 12:35:40 AM6/27/07
to
> for starters- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

So like, in other words, "I know you are but what am I"?

I don't get it... I am questionning the validity of Teen Challenge,
not making a moral value judgement. You sound pretty judgemental of
AA with very general statements.

Nobody in AA has ever suggested I be sexually immoral or gay. Even
so... Don't gays and sexually immoral need sobriety too? There was
actually a gay guy in Teen Challenge. They were trying to help him
the same as everyone else there.

AA does not force anyone to accept that alcoholism is a disease. In
my experience, all I have discovered is that if we take the approach
to alcoholism like it is a disease... and treat it like we would a
disease... people stay sober and recover.

Hide their roots? Not according to Dick B and many others. Do a
search on "Dick B Talks"... a retired lawyer living in hawaii. He is
an AA Historian and acknoledges very plainly the christian roots of
AA.

Teen Challenge may very well have been a great approach and a great
organization at one point. I am only stating that my experience with
them was quite negative. Hey... the exec director drinks socially.
How dangerous is that as an example? I know of countless coverups and
false posturing for donations. I was asked to participate in these
things. They called it "outreach". They were "out reaching" for
money.

The AA approach has worked for millions of people. To me, it works
because it uses principles of truth like the Bible does. So some
Christians get offended or threatened by the fact that God can be
acknowledged in a way that isnt exactly what a mainline Christian
does? It does not make Christianity wrong.

I am a Christian and I find that many, many christians are knee-jerk
defensive about their faith and feel threatened if someone else finds
enlightenment in a way that is not the same as their own
interpretation. Yet this attitude is exactly what Jesus opposed in
the pharisees. There are tons and tons of Christians who find a
connection wtih God in AA, NA, ALANON, or whatever A they are a part
of.

Can AA be erroneous in some of its ways or in the practices of some AA
groups? Of Course!!! Are there fanatics? Absolutely! Like any
group of people looking for hope and meaning, anyone can go off the
deep end. The Crusaders did. Jim Bakker did. Jimmy Swaggert did.
It is a frailty of the human condition.

I have got closer to God through AA. Yes, that is God, Jehovah, of
the Bible. And his son only son, Jesus Christ. AA does not threaten
my Christianity... it serves as a meaningful expression of it.

I find more honesty in an AA meeting amonst seekers than I did in my
Teen Challenge experience. The Teen Challenge experience I had
ejected people after 2 months if they weren't "saved" by then. Thats
a recovery program? My only affiliation with AA is my desire to stop
drinking.

Well I have gone on longer than I intended.

Ciao.

Chaz

Chaz

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 12:37:01 AM6/27/07
to
On Jun 26, 2:58 pm, FranklinRouss...@hotmail.com(Franklin Rousseau)
wrote:
> tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Isnt it strange how myopic most AA's are. They are so identified with
> > the
> > program, they cant see anything wrong with it. Very unhealthy in my
> > opinion.
>
> Yeah, so unhealthy that it's kept me sober for over 15 years. Man, you
> really are a stupid fuckup.

Fank... Buddy.... get off the fence! Quit holding back! Speak your
mind! (LOL).

Chaz

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 12:39:03 AM6/27/07
to

Again... so we limit recovery to heteros? Jesus didnt limit salvation
to any narrowly defined profile.

A gay person can't seek truth? Or do we simply expect them to conform
first.... and then they are allowed to embrace truth... but only as we
define it?

tedw

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 8:56:56 AM6/27/07
to
> Chaz- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

One of the problems with AA is that it condones homosexuality and is
accepting of it.


Im quite familiar with Dick B and have spoken to him several times. He
is totally
opposed to AA's acceptance of homosexuality and he does not like the
way
AA has covered up its Christian origins; thats why he wrote his
books.

Do you think God is approving and accepting of homosexuality?

Read the story "Tightrope" in the 4th edition of Alcoholics Anonymous,
and you
will see how low AA has sunk in regards to promoting the aberrant and
perverted
life style.

Exactly what Christian principle is involved in leading a life of
homosexuality?

I really couldnt comment on your Teen Challenge experience and I wont
defend them. But after 30 years I am quite able to comment on AA.

As far as the idea that Alcoholism is a "disease". It is false
teaching, plain and
simple. It is not a disease and never has been, never will be. It is
definetely not
honest to promote the idea that alcoholism is a "disease' which goes
on in all
AA meetings.

For the most part AA addicts people to meetings and they substitute
the comfort of the friendships they find there for the comfort they
previously found in Drink and/or drugs.


As a person claiming to be a Christian, how do you feel about the AA
teaching of making
anything a "higher power", including a doorknob or a lightbulb. Or
havent you been around AA long enough to hear those things yet?

cord...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:20:59 AM6/27/07
to
Chaz- Here is a link to my web blog about Teen Challenge.
http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/ I have also linked your post
to it so others may have an easier time locating your post.

cord...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:29:21 AM6/27/07
to
Also- Here is the direct link to post your bad experience at Teen
Challenge- http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/02/did-you-have-bad-experience-at-teen.html

tedw

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:42:33 AM6/27/07
to

Sure , a gay person can seek truth. There are many ex-gays who have
admitted
to thier sinful lifestyle, repented,and gone on to live normal lives.
One of the many truths
they have to see is that homosexuality is a perversion and that they
werent born that way.

Thats why AA is so harmful. It endorses the lifestyle with its many
gay AA meetings. Very
unspiritual.

tedw

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:55:58 AM6/27/07
to
> Chaz- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

"Hey... the exec director drinks socially.


How dangerous is that as an example? "

So if the exec director drinks socially in a responsible manner
without getting drunk,
whats wrong with that? Maybe he's cured of his drinking problem if he
had one.

Is he telling people to go get drunk?


Tex

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 12:08:09 PM6/27/07
to
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 05:56:56 -0700, tedw <te...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>One of the problems with AA is that it condones homosexuality and is
>accepting of it.
>

Does it really do this? Or does it recognize homosexuality is a fact
of life and homosexuals like people of other sexual orientations
become/are alcoholics too. That they too can recover from alcoholism
through the practice of the 12 steps.

>
>Im quite familiar with Dick B and have spoken to him several times. He
>is totally
>opposed to AA's acceptance of homosexuality and he does not like the
>way
>AA has covered up its Christian origins; thats why he wrote his
>books.
>

Dick B. as an individual is entitled to his personal likes and
dislikes just as any other member or non-member as far as that goes
is. Being a historian doesn't take away from the fact he breaks the
traditions and turns a buck in doing so.

>Do you think God is approving and accepting of homosexuality?
>

Personally I don't think God exists.

>Read the story "Tightrope" in the 4th edition of Alcoholics Anonymous,
>and you
>will see how low AA has sunk in regards to promoting the aberrant and
>perverted
>life style.
>

One can look at as such or one can look at as saying AA is inclusive
and not exclusive, aa can work for an individual regardless of their
sexual orientation.

>Exactly what Christian principle is involved in leading a life of
>homosexuality?
>

Brotherly love, turning the other cheek? Seriously neither excludes or
is required to be an aa member nor is either a requirement for
sobriety.

>I really couldnt comment on your Teen Challenge experience and I wont
>defend them. But after 30 years I am quite able to comment on AA.
>

Comment all you like...the 30 years isn't necessary to do so one way
or the other.

>As far as the idea that Alcoholism is a "disease". It is false
>teaching, plain and
>simple. It is not a disease and never has been, never will be. It is
>definetely not
>honest to promote the idea that alcoholism is a "disease' which goes
>on in all
>AA meetings.
>

Illness and spiritual malady come to mind as how it's described by AA
...how individual members view it is not something aa has control
over. You, yourself being a good example of that. As to saying it's
not or never will be, well that is a stretch even for you. Science may
figure it out but hasn't done so yet...has that changed?

>For the most part AA addicts people to meetings and they substitute
>the comfort of the friendships they find there for the comfort they
>previously found in Drink and/or drugs.
>

Well you got part of it correct with this one...AA does (up front)
offer up the Fellowship as a substitute. A sober lifestyle instead of
a drunken lifestyle...As for addicting people to meetings each person
is free to attend or not attend as many or few as they individually
decide.

>
>As a person claiming to be a Christian, how do you feel about the AA
>teaching of making
>anything a "higher power", including a doorknob or a lightbulb. Or
>havent you been around AA long enough to hear those things yet?
>

As I'm not the person claiming to be a christian and who isn't one I
can say for certain my feelings towards the suggestion I can use my
own conception a gateway instead or a barrier. If another wants to use
a doorknob or lightbulb and someone else wants to use a cartoon
character like god why should I take that away or block them from
doing so.

Next thing you know when they start the exclusive instead of inclusive
and start tossing the homosexuals, non-christians, etc. out the doors
of aa how long do you think it will be before ex-cons living with
their moms that get personal permission from jesus to drink a little
wine now n' then will be booted.

Message has been deleted

Charlie M. 1958

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 1:48:44 PM6/27/07
to
Biljo White wrote:

> People like tedw regard their personal beliefs as objective truths. They
> respond to other viewpoints they same way you or I would respond to an
> assertion that the world is flat.


You mean it's not???

Tex

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 4:16:40 PM6/27/07
to

Sober it's flat...drunk it's going round n' round.

(David P.)

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 7:47:49 PM6/27/07
to
tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> ...how do you feel about the AA teaching of making

> anything a "higher power", including a doorknob
> or a lightbulb?

The A.A. Big Book says "doorknob" & "lightbulb"?
.
.
--

tedw

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:01:33 PM6/27/07
to
On Jun 27, 9:08 am, Tex <twizz...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I never said they should toss them out. They shouldnt toss out thieves
either.
Both should be told thier lifestyle is wrong.

tedw

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 10:02:43 PM6/27/07
to

Not all AA teaching is in the Big Book. Any honest fair minded person
will agree
the doorknob and lightbulb idea are promoted in AA.

Tex

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 11:31:13 PM6/27/07
to

How do you know god ain't a lightbulb or a doorknob?

(David P.)

unread,
Jun 27, 2007, 11:45:53 PM6/27/07
to
tedw <t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "(David P.)" <imb...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > The A.A. Big Book says "doorknob" & "lightbulb"?
>
> Not all AA teaching is in the Big Book. Any honest
> fair minded person will agree the doorknob and
> lightbulb idea are promoted in AA.

"The opinions expressed in this meeting are the
members own, and do not necessarily reflect
those of Alcoholics Anonymous."
.
.
--

sharx35

unread,
Jun 28, 2007, 1:01:23 AM6/28/07
to

"tedw" <te...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1182996163....@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...


Promoted by a FEW, temporarily, for newbies.

>
>
>
>
>


Craig S.

unread,
Jun 28, 2007, 8:36:36 AM6/28/07
to
"Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nqa6831k8ihkflte8...@4ax.com...

> How do you know god ain't a lightbulb or a doorknob?

I'm counting on it.


tedw

unread,
Jun 28, 2007, 12:48:57 PM6/28/07
to
On Jun 27, 10:01 pm, "sharx35" <shar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "tedw" <t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text


More than a few I would say but no way to prove it.

Tex

unread,
Jun 28, 2007, 2:02:35 PM6/28/07
to
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 08:36:36 -0400, "Craig S." <cspu...@charter.net>
wrote:

Counting on is or isn't?

Craig S.

unread,
Jun 28, 2007, 3:06:39 PM6/28/07
to
"Tex" <twiz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:btt783h2rs1ql34n7...@4ax.com...

Same difference.