In and out - is AA for me?
Tom'sQ
Hey man, whats up?
The only person who can decide if AA is right for you is you. Some options
may be getting a new sponsor, checking out other recovery methods, and take
it easy. AA has no monopoly as far as Recovery is concerned, it's the method
that has worked for me though
Keep up the good work, concentrate more on being sober then on the
relapses..
icq 29070508
Tom'sQ
Nick
pattern: 3 days in, 1 day relapse, 14 days in, 1 day relapse, 31 days in, 4
day relapse - and so far 2 days back in AA.
I feel pretty confused about whether AA is the right place for me. I have a
sponsor but I don't trust him anymore because he doesn't seem to believe
I've had a bad enough rock bottom, he tells me stuff that is demonstrably
false, but worst of all seems to be saying I can't think about my life
beyond the day I'm in. The message feels like I should just take the slogans
to heart in an uncritical way, and that until I surrender and admit complete
and utter defeat on all fronts I can't get better.
My pattern of drinking during my last 4 day relapse was typical of where I
left of 2 months ago: one night it worked and made me happy and I drunk the
amount I planned to drink; 2 nights I drank a little bit more than I meant
and wasn't particularly happy; and the last night the planned 2 glasses of
wine turned into 2 bottles and I was very unhappy.
I've been reading some of the Hazelden books on recovery, which seem to
assure me I do have a valid understanding and can recover from where I am.
Where I am is:
- I know I have a problem and need outside help to control it
- I am addicted and know I had lost control over the progression of the
addiction
- My current drinking is not worth it because it is too out of control. I
also know I cannot drink again because I will never regain the control I
have lost.
I believe that for me now, the discomfort of recovery is less than that of
continued drinking - and from what I read this is sufficient of a 'rock
bottom' for recovery to be possible. I do not want to admit complete loss of
control because it isn't true and I demonstrated that last week as one night
I did control the drinking as I planned. My sponsor is pushing the AA line
that "one drink leads inevitably to a drunk" and while I do accept this is
likely it is not inevitable for me.
The other slogans which really annoy me are "your best thinking got you
here" because it implies I'm useless at running my life and ought to have
been able to cope with it on my own. Of course I ended up here because
before AA I didn't understand the nature of my problem!
Finally, I feel that the "utilise, don't analyse" slogan is wrong. There is
much good stuff in AA which I believe can help me, but there is some rubbish
you hear too. From now on I plan to listen a bit more critically to avoid
the bad stuff, some of which I believe can unnecessarily lower your
self-esteem and increase depression.
Anyway, to return to the main point I believe I have accepted enough about
the nature of my problems to progress in recovery and even honestly do step
one - and I feel I should find a new sponsor that agrees...
Any thoughts?
Nick
PS Apologies to those who pay for bandwidth...
--
Nick
mailto:nic...@altavista.net
nr Guildford, UK
student
discomfort of recovery is less that the discomfort of continued drinking" then
that certainly can be rock bottom for you.
I've managed on extremely rare occasions to limit my drinking but it always
wound up like you say it did for you---a few days later I was drinking as much
or more as before. "One drink leads inevitably to a drunk" is true for me and it
sounds like it is for you also. "Inevitably" means "without fail" and, thought
it didn't happen the first night you drank, it DID happen.
I don't know if AA is for you or not. I know that for me it was the only way
I've ever managed to get sober and stay sober for longer than 3 months in the
last 34 years.
I suggest finding a sponsor (someone in AA who is living the 12 steps in his
daily life to the best of his ability and who will help you to do the same) and
do what the AA Big Book and him say for awhile and see if it works for you or
not. Give it a year and if it doesn't work you can always go back to doing what
you've been doing.
George
Mike H
Don't drink and go to meetings.
Jim
Nick wrote
>Anyway, to return to the main point I believe I have accepted enough about
>the nature of my problems to progress in recovery and even honestly do step
>one - and I feel I should find a new sponsor that agrees...
As one who spent 8 years getting drunk in AA, I will share the following
with you. First off, AA does not deal with addiction or alcoholism, it deals
with the alcoholic who suffers from a human condition called alcoholism. AA
sees the problem as rooted in character not the bottle.
If you carefully read the 1st step you will notice the dash (-) which means
end of thought - beginning of new thought. So, the first Step is two parts.
1 - powerless over alcohol. Why? Allergy of body and obsesssion of mind.
Read pages 30 -31 of BB. Is that you? Read page 44. 2nd part is that our
lives had become unmanageable. Why? Well if I am trying to control and enjoy
my drinking and I keep meeting failure then I lose my self-confidence, my
reliance upon humans and my problems pile up and seem unsolvable. I become
selfish and self-centered. My problem is self imposed as I am trying to
overcome a problem that I do not have the "power" to overcome. Dr. K
Menninger referred to alcoholism as a form of chronic suicide in which the
alcoholic tries to overcome that which will eventually kill him. Read
Chapter 3 of the BB and you will find that the program is designed to
overcome only one problem, that if you are a "real alcoholic", then no
matter how you try to postpone or evade your alcoholism, you will drink
again. That is it's simplicity. BTW, the first three steps are conclusions
of the mind and a logical person can take them in 3 hours or less. Keep in
touch.
Jimb
Lech K. Lesiak
> Anyway, to return to the main point I believe I have accepted enough about
> the nature of my problems to progress in recovery and even honestly do step
> one - and I feel I should find a new sponsor that agrees...
>
> Any thoughts?
I ain't no rocket scientist, but it sounds to me as if you should quit
drinking booze.
Cheers,
Lech
Michael R Kratovil
Nick- Sometimes we as recovering alcoholics do the same things over and
over expecting different results from what we are getting. So far your best
analyzing hasn't got you anywhere in sobriety I have over three years of
sobriety with ten years of going to meetings. When most people relapse they
usually start out with some control over their drinking then quickly or
gradually loose control. The words "powerless" or "surrender" are words that
are associated with human weakness or loosing. (not very popular words in
our vocabulary) I was a loser when I came to AA but had a hard time
accepting it. I surrendered to WIN! The big book is a simple set of
instructions that separates facts about alcoholism and recovery from some of
the lies we may hear in meetings. What I do TODAY affects my FUTURE. This
disease is stronger than me because if it wasn't I wouldn't have been
bouncing in and out of AA. If I drink today the physical cravings for more
alcohol would return and there is no amount of willpower or mental analysis
that would conquer this insanity..
Nick <nic...@altavista.net> wrote in message
news:82c3bg$s71$1...@nclient15-gui.server.virgin.net...
> Anyway, to return to the main point I believe I have accepted enough about
> the nature of my problems to progress in recovery and even honestly do
step
> one - and I feel I should find a new sponsor that agrees...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
Mister Hazchem
"Lech K. Lesiak" wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Nick wrote:
>
> > Anyway, to return to the main point I believe I have accepted enough about
> > the nature of my problems to progress in recovery and even honestly do step
> > one - and I feel I should find a new sponsor that agrees...
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
Julie
>I've just gone back to AA after another relapse, and I seem to be building a
>pattern: 3 days in, 1 day relapse, 14 days in, 1 day relapse, 31 days in, 4
>day relapse - and so far 2 days back in AA.
Hi Nick...I logged in a couple of years of hell doing exactly what you
describe, and I know it isn't any picnic. Thing I had to decide wasn't whether
AA was for me, but whether booze was for me. I decided AA is fine as a program
but the people (and slogans) can drive me nuts sometimes. Once I got over that
hurdle, things got better. Sometimes I hear folks share and I mentally read 'em
the riot act b/c they don't live up to my expectations, and then I catch myself
and get a grip. Some of the best "AA Moments" I've had have been reading the
program itself and not from listening to the permutations in the meetings. It's
been about balance for me. Also, I'm rather fond of the "meeting after the
meeting" when no one's working the crowd. It took me a good 2 or 3 months to
find some meetings that had some good stuff going on in them, and now I just
avoid the BS ones. It's what I do to stay sober now, and it might change in the
future. My whole opinion of AA has changed since I've discovered this NG,
FWIW...stick around...some of what I read here is like watching a "Best of"
show. Other times, it's plain ol' Usenet trash talking...<g>
Best of luck to you,
Julie
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Spirit. Live as
children of light and find out what pleases the Spirit."
Nick
news:3849AE39...@sk.sympatico.ca...
> I find many of the so called slogans to be quite negative. If a person
already
> feels like they can't do anything right, some of those expressions
certainly can
> add to the negativity. Try to ignore the ones that bother you and focus
on the
> ones that give you some encouragement.
It's good to hear some balanced comments about AA!
I've always thought that having a balanced view of things is vital, but I'm
always so bad at it. I go off in search of the data, but its just the
process of weighing it up in my mind that seems error-prone. Looking at this
logically, my attitude to AA has been exactly the same as my attitude to all
groups I've joined and every employer I've ever worked for. What I do is
that I sign up and start accepting everything they tell me as gospel. Then
it dawns on me that some of it isn't. Then I go in search of the other bad
points, dig up a whole lot of negativity and nearly leave. After that I
scale back my commitment a bit and sit around trying not to get irritated at
the bad bits while working with the bits I can agree with. Trouble is the
irritation boils over from time to time which is why I nearly quit my job
every few months...
Does everyone in the world think like this or is it just addicts?
Nick
Mark Warner
"Nick" <nic...@altavista.net> wrote
>
> I've always thought that having a balanced view of things is vital, but
I'm
> always so bad at it. I go off in search of the data, but its just the
> process of weighing it up in my mind that seems error-prone. Looking at
this
> logically, my attitude to AA has been exactly the same as my attitude to
all
> groups I've joined and every employer I've ever worked for. What I do is
> that I sign up and start accepting everything they tell me as gospel. Then
> it dawns on me that some of it isn't. Then I go in search of the other bad
> points, dig up a whole lot of negativity and nearly leave. After that I
> scale back my commitment a bit and sit around trying not to get irritated
at
> the bad bits while working with the bits I can agree with. Trouble is the
> irritation boils over from time to time which is why I nearly quit my job
> every few months...
>
> Does everyone in the world think like this or is it just addicts?
>
>
> Nick
>
Don't know about anyone else, but you described me to a "T". I've had 8 jobs
in 10 years of sobriety. All but two were voluntary moves -- got disgusted
with the present situation, and went looking for greener pastures,
oftentimes finding out I was dead wrong. Hopefully, my current position -- a
good, responsible situation that allows me a great deal of autonomy and
compensates me adequately -- will turn out to be something I can stay
comfortable in.
My personal view is that I still have difficulty being tolerant of other
peoples' shortcomings (while minimizing my own), have a major need to
control what I can't, and have to constantly fight the perception that I am
somehow not being treated fairly (poor, poor, me).
AA has allowed me to at least recognize that the great majority of my
"problems" are of my own making, and given me the tools to deal with them.
If I don't recognize this, or utilize the tools, that is when I find myself
in trouble.
--
Mark Warner
===========================
"I still feel like a wallflower
But I'm learnin' how to dance."
===========================
Lose inhibitions. when replying
--
Jim McMahon
>I've just gone back to AA after another relapse, and I seem to be building a
>pattern: 3 days in, 1 day relapse, 14 days in, 1 day relapse, 31 days in, 4
>day relapse - and so far 2 days back in AA.
Do you want to change that pattern?
Also, I'm somewhat confused as to whether you're describing your
pattern of drinking or your pattern of AA attendance. They are not
the same thing ... some people attend AA for quite a while before they
are finally (if ever) able to put down the drink for good. Others
have been able to quit drinking for good and don't attend AA at all.
Me, I was "forced" into both abstinence and AA attendance for six
months, and chose to stick around when the term was up, because I
wanted to stay quit and felt that AA attendance helped me do that.
>I feel pretty confused about whether AA is the right place for me.
I had the same confusion and, to be honest, still occassionally have
that confusion now. I've been going for 13 years, and in that time
I've had one drink (10 years ago), and one period (5 years ago) where
due to living in the Australian desert, I was unable to attend
meetings for two years.
My bouts with confusion regarding whether AA is the right place for me
usually stem from the fact that I sometimes have diffculty with the
"fanatics" who spout the "party line" continuously without appearing
to think. What I've found, however, is that I do not have to be a
clone to attend AA and abstain from drinking. AA atendance is for me,
an overall positive experience, and so I choose to continue. Partly
its for selfish reasons, and partly its so that I can serve as a
"counter-example" to some of the fanatics so that new people wanting
to stay sober can see that there are many paths to choose from, even
within the framework of the 12 steps.
>I have a sponsor but I don't trust him anymore because he doesn't seem to believe
>I've had a bad enough rock bottom, he tells me stuff that is demonstrably
>false, but worst of all seems to be saying I can't think about my life
>beyond the day I'm in. The message feels like I should just take the slogans
>to heart in an uncritical way, and that until I surrender and admit complete
>and utter defeat on all fronts I can't get better.
What does your own experience tell you in this regard?
No offense, but abstaining from drinking for a few days or weeks at a
time and returning to it is a fairly common pattern among alcoholics.
Your sponsor may simply be trying to point that out to you.
I cant tell from what you've written whether your sponsor is or is not
one of the "fanatics" I described above. I can tell you that almost
everyone I know in AA would tell you that until they had finally hit
their own rock bottom (whatever that was), they were unable to quit
drinking for good. Your sponsor may be simply sharing his own
experience - and your experience may vary.
>My pattern of drinking during my last 4 day relapse was typical of where I
>left of 2 months ago: one night it worked and made me happy and I drunk the
>amount I planned to drink; 2 nights I drank a little bit more than I meant
>and wasn't particularly happy; and the last night the planned 2 glasses of
>wine turned into 2 bottles and I was very unhappy.
My own drinking was such that I could abstain from drinking for
periods of time, and could also usually control how much I drank on a
given ocassion. The problem was that I couldn't tell in advance on
which ocassions I'd "lose control" and end up trashed when I hadn't
planned to.
>I've been reading some of the Hazelden books on recovery, which seem to
>assure me I do have a valid understanding and can recover from where I am.
>Where I am is:
>- I know I have a problem and need outside help to control it
>- I am addicted and know I had lost control over the progression of the
>addiction
>- My current drinking is not worth it because it is too out of control. I
>also know I cannot drink again because I will never regain the control I
>have lost.
The above part of your post really confuses me. What do you mean by
"addicted"? Seriously .... it may be the heart of your dilemma. You
are saying here that you know you are addicted and that you will never
regain control of your drinking, and yet the rest of your post (and
your current drinking behavior) implies that what you are struggling
with is whether or not you CAN control your drinking. Maybe you can,
I don't know. Only your own experience can tell you that.
Personally, I had a very difficult time with:
a. Introducing myself as an "alcoholic" and
b. Taking Step One as written: "We admitted we were powerless over
alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable"
My difficulty came from the fact that I was overly concerned with what
other people would think I meant when I said I was "alcoholic". I
flatly refused to introduce myself as "alcoholic" until I beleived it
to be true so, for about three months I didn't use that label at AA
meetings. "Hi, my name is Jim" didn't turn into "Hi, my name is Jim
and I'm an alcholic" until I resolved the issue within my own mind.
What I finally came to realize is that it doesn't matter what other
people think I mean by that label - what matters is what the label
means to me, personally. To me, it means that I can't drink safely
and that unless I abstain completely, I will eventually get trashed
when I don't mean to. It doesn't mean that I'll get trashed every
time, or that I have to drink every day, or that I'm chemically
dependant (another label I objected to), or anything other than the
fact that I've got a drinking problem and need help with it.
So, that got me over the "labeling" issue.
The way I took Step One was similar. I had a real tough time
resolving the apparent contradiction with the wording of it - if I was
truly "powerless" over alcohol, then wouldn't any attempt at getting
sober be, by definition, futile and doomed to failure? I mean, if I
truly had no power over alcohol, was there any hope?
I asked a guy in treatment with me about this, and he told me that for
him, it simply meant that there were some things in his life he
couldn't control: whether it rained on a particular day, or whether
or not he'd get drunk if he picked up the first drink. He said that
he simply substituted the word "life" for the word "alcohol" in the
first step, and it made sense to him. For some reason, it also made
sense to me.
Now, however, I think a little bit differently about it. I think that
although by myself I was powerless over alcohol - with the help of
other people, attendance at AA, and my own concepts of spirituality
and God, I've turned the tables on my alcoholism. I don't have to
drink, and in fact have not done so in a very long time - I didn't
have power over it before, but today I do. But I also beleive that I
can (not necessarily will) LOSE that power if I pick up even a single
drink.
As to the part after the hyphen, "that our lives had become
unmanageable", I never even realized for a number of years in AA that
some people apparently think that it means their lives were completely
and entirely fucked up - that isnt what it meant to me, since my life
was *not* completely a mess. I had a job, paid my bills, and did
manage most areas of my life just fine when I was introduced into AA.
For me, my life was really only unmanageable *in regards to my
drinking*. Like the label of "alcoholic" issue, it doesn't matter a
whit to me what it means to someone else.
>I believe that for me now, the discomfort of recovery is less than that of
>continued drinking - and from what I read this is sufficient of a 'rock
>bottom' for recovery to be possible. I do not want to admit complete loss of
>control because it isn't true and I demonstrated that last week as one night
>I did control the drinking as I planned. My sponsor is pushing the AA line
>that "one drink leads inevitably to a drunk" and while I do accept this is
>likely it is not inevitable for me.
My personal experience tells me that your distinction between "likely"
and "inevitable", while technically correct, is a moot point. I just
personally don't want to take the chance.
As I said, I've been in AA for 13 years and I *did* have *one* drink
ten years ago. Without going into the story about how I got to that
point, I will tell you that I thought I had given up drinking forever,
really beleived I was alcoholic, and was happy being a non-drinker.
But I hit a moment in time where I said "fuck it" and downed a drink
in an effort to get some girl naked.
Now maybe it was because of the flood of guilt I had, or fear, but
what happened was this: I felt like shit, very nearly forgot about
the girl I'd managed to get naked, got a slight buzz, and wanted
another drink to wash down my feelings of remorse at having screwed
up. But also, and perhaps most importantly, I LIKED that feeling of
getting close to the edge, and wanted more of it - I wanted to get
absolutely shit-faced drunk! But the damned bottle was empty and it
was 2 am with nowhere to get more. So instead, I had sex with the
girl, got rid of her, and had to face my alcoholism again.
After some soul-searching, and talking with a trusted friend I'd met
in AA, I decided that I would return to meetings (I had never stopped,
having been to one that night)and be honest about what had happened.
There were two reasons for this: 1) the people there were important in
my life and 2) I was afraid at the way I'd LIKED the affect of alcohol
and I didn't want to lose good things I'd gained from not drinking for
over 3 years.
I was convinced (again) that I'm an alcholic, and I needed help.
>The other slogans which really annoy me are "your best thinking got you
>here" because it implies I'm useless at running my life and ought to have
>been able to cope with it on my own. Of course I ended up here because
>before AA I didn't understand the nature of my problem!
I have a pet peave against that phrase, too. Usually, I hear it
spouted by morons who really aren't capable of rational thought, or by
would-be dictators who try to force others into obedience. Don't buy
it, if it doesn't make sense to you - no one can make you.
In fact, I advise you to THINK before you pick up your next drink.
Think about where it "likely" (not "inevitably") will take you. Do
you want to go there?
>Finally, I feel that the "utilise, don't analyse" slogan is wrong. There is
>much good stuff in AA which I believe can help me, but there is some rubbish
>you hear too. From now on I plan to listen a bit more critically to avoid
>the bad stuff, some of which I believe can unnecessarily lower your
>self-esteem and increase depression.
Sounds like a plan. But remember, just because something is
unpleasant to hear doesn't mean it isn't true. Sometimes, hearing the
harsh truth is the best thing for us.
If one person says I'm a dickhead, that may be their problem and not
mine. However, if five people say I'm a dickhead, there's probably
some truth to it.
>Anyway, to return to the main point I believe I have accepted enough about
>the nature of my problems to progress in recovery and even honestly do step
>one - and I feel I should find a new sponsor that agrees...
>Any thoughts?
>Nick
Getting any two people in AA to agree on anything can be very
difficult. If you have serious philosophical differences with your
current sponsor, it may be worth changing. If you simply don't want
to hear anyone else's opinion, getting a new sponsor won't help.
My own expereince is that within my first two weeks I fired the
fanatic who had appointed himself as my sponsor and was trying to boss
me around - that approach just didn't fly with me.
Then I took some advice from the guy (an alcoholic) that ran the
out-patient treatment center I was in and ASKED the next guy I was
considering as a sponsor what he expected from people he sponsored, so
I could consider whether or not I could live with it. I could, and
asked him to sponsor me. He never asked anything of me, but I saw him
every single week at the same meeting and learned a lot from him. I
never called him, and he didn't care.
A few years later, I found that I was talking more and more with this
other guy about stuff, and asked him what he would expect if he became
my sponsor. He expected a bit more (a phone call per week and seeing
each other at a meeting once a week), and I committed to it. That
little bit more of effort really paid off for me, and was well worth
it. He and I remained very close friends until he died this past
year. At present, I don't have a sponsor and am not looking for one,
although I do have certain friends with whom I feel I can talk about
anything.
That's what (so far) has been working for me. Your own mileage may
vary. But I am sure of this: If you don't drink, you wont get drunk.
Good luck to you.
Being ordinary and nothing special is a full-time job.
mcma...@flash.net (Jim McMahon in real life)
Nick
news:CBu24.7606$0p4.8...@news.flash.net...
<snip>
> Also, I'm somewhat confused
:-) Me too :-)
> What I've found, however, is that I do not have to be a
> clone to attend AA and abstain from drinking. AA atendance is for me,
> an overall positive experience, and so I choose to continue.
This is exactly how I feel! I've always questioned things in my life, and
some people in AA don't like this. Maybe I've read too many anti-AA books...
> The above part of your post really confuses me. What do you mean by
> "addicted"?
I mean I can't stop for a week when I want to, sometimes I can't control the
amount I drink once I start and it also means that I can't stop both these
problems getting worse over time. This I know.
> The way I took Step One was similar.
<snip>
> Now, however, I think a little bit differently about it. I think that
> although by myself I was powerless over alcohol - with the help of
> other people, attendance at AA, and my own concepts of spirituality
> and God, I've turned the tables on my alcoholism.
This is great - it is exactly what I feel :-) Similarly your comments on
unmanageability. It is good to know you recovered from a similar starting
position :-)
> My personal experience tells me that your distinction between "likely"
> and "inevitable", while technically correct, is a moot point. I just
> personally don't want to take the chance.
I agree, but I am a nit-picker by inclination. Never signed a contract
without reading the small print in my life...
> Then I took some advice from the guy (an alcoholic) that ran the
> out-patient treatment center I was in and ASKED the next guy I was
> considering as a sponsor what he expected from people he sponsored, so
> I could consider whether or not I could live with it.
This sounds like really good advice - I'll do it!
> Good luck to you.
Thanks :-)
Take care,
Nick
Nick
news:82dsui$img$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...
> I still have difficulty being tolerant of other
> peoples' shortcomings (while minimizing my own), have a major need to
> control what I can't, and have to constantly fight the perception that I
am
> somehow not being treated fairly (poor, poor, me).
I think this is me as well. I can't stop people expressing opinions which I
don't agree with, but maybe I can learn to not be annoyed by listening. I
think I'm just letting other peoples problems become mine. My normal
unhealthy thought pattern is "I came here to learn how to get well and feel
better - how _dare_ that person spout rubbish..."
Realising belately I have the mental maturity of a 3 year old...
Nick
thebullwinkle
made a good choice, but i came close to not making one. i looked for someone
who had what i wanted. sponsors can and sometimes should be fired. it may
come as a shock but a person can be in the program for a long time and still
have no clue whats going on. best thinking... does not imply i am useless at
all things. one of the greatest gifts the program has given me was to
understand that my thinking needed revision. there were things i did right
and things i did wrong. 4th step told me what those were. comtrol? never had
it. i just told myself i did. big difference. learning the truth about
myself(my thinking) makes recovery easier. change is not difficult or
painful unless we resisit it. utilise don't analyse is correct because until
you have applied a step or technique you will not know how or why it works.
you have to do it first. it is good to analyse afterwards. it keeps you from
having only a superficial understanding of the program. experience is the
best teacher. the steps and recovery cannot be learned from reading a book,
going to meetings or talking with people. these are helpful but it must be
lived to work. practice these principles in all our affairs. good luck Nick.
rick in texas
-**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?c ****-
Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser
Derek M.
it may be rubbish to you, hence the "take what you need and leave the rest"
slogan. but it may not be rubbish to the person saying it.
--
Derek
http://derekm.home.mindspring.com
http://www.bannerdudes.com/fransway
http://members.xoom.com/tascna
http://listen.to/recovery
Derek M.
> Lyndi <ly...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3849AE39...@sk.sympatico.ca...
> > I find many of the so called slogans to be quite negative. If a person
> already
> > feels like they can't do anything right, some of those expressions
> certainly can
> > add to the negativity. Try to ignore the ones that bother you and focus
> on the
> > ones that give you some encouragement.
>
> It's good to hear some balanced comments about AA!
>
I'm
> always so bad at it. I go off in search of the data, but its just the
> process of weighing it up in my mind that seems error-prone. Looking at
this
> logically, my attitude to AA has been exactly the same as my attitude to
all
> groups I've joined and every employer I've ever worked for. What I do is
> that I sign up and start accepting everything they tell me as gospel. Then
> it dawns on me that some of it isn't. Then I go in search of the other bad
> points, dig up a whole lot of negativity and nearly leave. After that I
> scale back my commitment a bit and sit around trying not to get irritated
at
> the bad bits while working with the bits I can agree with. Trouble is the
> irritation boils over from time to time which is why I nearly quit my job
> every few months...
>
> Does everyone in the world think like this or is it just addicts?
>
>
> Nick
it's not just addicts. but many addicts have found a way to get beyond it.
rule # 1. don't sweat the small stuff.
rule # 2. everything is small stuff
rule # 3. see rule # 1.
Bob H
>I've just gone back to AA after another relapse, and I seem to be building a
>pattern: 3 days in, 1 day relapse, 14 days in, 1 day relapse, 31 days in, 4
>day relapse - and so far 2 days back in AA.
>
taking you longer and longer to forget the feeling that makes you
stop. Progress not perfection (slogan :)
--
Grace and Peace
10/31/88
Bob H
Bob H
>
>I've always thought that having a balanced view of things is vital, but I'm
>always so bad at it. I go off in search of the data, but its just the
>process of weighing it up in my mind that seems error-prone.
Good point. I'm not sure we can trust our minds to weigh facts
accurately when it comes to alcohol. Its like the scales balanced in
favor of alcohol. Maybe like the fulcrum on a seesaw. Right now very
little excuse needs to be piled on the alcohol side to tip over into
the side that favors taking a drink.
If you've noticed as time passes for you the fulcrum seems to be
sliding further and further away from steady drinking. Right now
though its still so unbalanced that its a little unsafe to handle on
your own. Powers like sponsorship, fellowship and higher powers both
tip the weight and fulcrum into your favor. It takes time and a
Continued application of forces though.
Rest assured that if you yield to these forces, you help rather than
hinder their effect. They are there to help you. Do not fear giving in
(surrendering) to these helpful forces. If you work the steps of AA
the freedom and will to do your own thing is given back to you many
fold near the end of the steps.
> Looking at this
>logically, my attitude to AA has been exactly the same as my attitude to all
>groups I've joined and every employer I've ever worked for. What I do is
>that I sign up and start accepting everything they tell me as gospel. Then
>it dawns on me that some of it isn't. Then I go in search of the other bad
>points, dig up a whole lot of negativity and nearly leave. After that I
>scale back my commitment a bit and sit around trying not to get irritated at
>the bad bits while working with the bits I can agree with. Trouble is the
>irritation boils over from time to time which is why I nearly quit my job
>every few months...
There is only one thing that deserves to be taken as gospel And that
is The Gospel. God and Man made things are different. All things and
all people pass away eventually. I'd suggest you Pick a higher power
that does not share this characteristic. Something worthy of your
commitment and faith. Let this become your new employer.
>
>Does everyone in the world think like this or is it just addicts?
>
>
>Nick
>
--
fke
>
> I've just gone back to AA after another relapse, and I seem to be building a
> pattern: 3 days in, 1 day relapse, 14 days in, 1 day relapse, 31 days in, 4
> day relapse - and so far 2 days back in AA.
>
to some degree it depends on what you want or expect from AA..
if you didnt drink because you were going to go to an AA meeting..
AA worked that much...
we can only decide for ourselves.
Fred Brumley
On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:10:50 -0000, "Nick" <nic...@altavista.net>
wrote:
>I've just gone back to AA after another relapse, and I seem to be building a
>pattern: 3 days in, 1 day relapse, 14 days in, 1 day relapse, 31 days in, 4
>day relapse - and so far 2 days back in AA.
That's an interesting looking progression, Nick. I don't have any
Earthly idea what it may mean will happen to you in the future.
Perhaps some Soothsayer, Bookmaker, or whomever would make something
of that. I have serious doubts about paying too much attention to that
sort of thing... doubts as to it's usefulness in your determintation
of whether or not AA is for you.
>I feel pretty confused about whether AA is the right place for me. I have a
>sponsor but I don't trust him anymore because he doesn't seem to believe
>I've had a bad enough rock bottom, he tells me stuff that is demonstrably
>false, but worst of all seems to be saying I can't think about my life
>beyond the day I'm in. The message feels like I should just take the slogans
>to heart in an uncritical way, and that until I surrender and admit complete
>and utter defeat on all fronts I can't get better.
I had/have a similar feeling about AA, Nick. I'm still quite a bit
confused about AA's overall 'rightness' or 'wrongness' for me but so
far what I got out of the time, effort, and experience has been
holding 'good' for me. Presently, I'm not an active member, in good
standing, of the Fellowship of A.A. It's years since I've been to an
group meeting. I think you have a right to know that about me, up
front.
I eventually sought and found an sponsor whom I perceived to be quite
similiar to me in experience and thinking, as those things related to
"what it was like" to have used alcohol in the way we did. My hope was
that he would be more aware of my rationalizations/denials than I
would be and would be able to point them out to me in such an way that
I could make progress rather than remain stuck within my dilemma.
Seems to me from what you've expressed about your sponsor, Nick, that
he may be perceiving you to be an low bottom drunk. If so, maybe
that's the only way he knows how to work with another. Maybe he was an
low bottom drunk and is determined to work with others based upon his
own ESH. IMO, that is as it ought to be. I couldn't/wouldn't attempt
to work with low bottom drunks as that is not my own ESH. I have
little/nothing to honestly/effectively share with another, with
respect to having personal experience/knowledge/understanding of being
such an drunk. IMO, I wouldn't be a good guide, to working the 12 Step
program of recovery of A.A. for an low bottom drunk to have.
>My pattern of drinking during my last 4 day relapse was typical of where I
>left of 2 months ago: one night it worked and made me happy and I drunk the
>amount I planned to drink; 2 nights I drank a little bit more than I meant
>and wasn't particularly happy; and the last night the planned 2 glasses of
>wine turned into 2 bottles and I was very unhappy.
So, now you may say that you've personally tried out the suggestion on
page whatever of the BB (Big Book a.k.a. _Alcoholics Anonymous_). I
mean the suggestion regarding stepping up to the bar and experimenting
with some controlled drinking. Maybe you can/will conclude from your
recent experience that you may have some kind of problem with your
alcohol use. I don't think that 'experiement' necessarily indicates
alcoholism. It took considerably more than that (most of the 12 Steps)
for me to come to the conclusion that I'm an alcolic, and I'm still
not absolutely sure of it. Rightly or wrongly, I assume it to be so.
That's up to me to decide, for my own well-being.
>I've been reading some of the Hazelden books on recovery, which seem to
>assure me I do have a valid understanding and can recover from where I am.
>Where I am is:
>- I know I have a problem and need outside help to control it
>- I am addicted and know I had lost control over the progression of the
>addiction
>- My current drinking is not worth it because it is too out of control. I
>also know I cannot drink again because I will never regain the control I
>have lost.
OK, Nick. My superficial familiarity with the Hazeldon books has come
from reading articles posted in this NG and hearing folks discuss them
in and around A.A. groups & meetings I used to attend... and the
meetings after the meeting. Some folks apparently have gotten alot out
of those books. I guess I decided that I had my hands full with the BB
and 12&12 . There were a few books outside of A.A. literature in which
I found information that was useful to me. I guess alot of people do
that sort of thing.
>I believe that for me now, the discomfort of recovery is less than that of
>continued drinking - and from what I read this is sufficient of a 'rock
>bottom' for recovery to be possible. I do not want to admit complete loss of
>control because it isn't true and I demonstrated that last week as one night
>I did control the drinking as I planned. My sponsor is pushing the AA line
>that "one drink leads inevitably to a drunk" and while I do accept this is
>likely it is not inevitable for me.
OK. I didn't/don't admit to complete loss of control either, Nick.
IMO, the 'must do so' frequently comes about through an particular
interpretation of the applicability and meaning of the literature.
IMO, the literature was written by/for low bottom drunks and it's
frequently interpreted in that manner. With no intended disrespect
towards the past, I interpret(ed) the literature with respect to my
times and my experiences. I admitted/admit to is somethig like this;
*Once I consume the first drink of alcohol I am no longer in full
control of how much alcohol I may drink and I am no longer in any
control of alcohol's possible effects on not only my life but also on
the lives of those around me.* That is the long form of my final
experience with using alcohol. The short form is as it's written in
the 12 Steps list.
I accept the particular "AA line" you mention because that was my
experience at the end of it. That I did consume and still may be able
to consume onlt one drink of alcohol on *extremely rare* occasions or
over relatively short periods of time became/is an irrelevant point,
toand for me. I started my 'drinking career' as a binge drinker, by
running around with the crowd I ran with, filling up the trunk of the
car(s) with cases of beer, driving to the beach, and drinking till I
puked... and then drinking some more. That became my habitual form of
drinking and progressed onward, over many years, to daily maintenance
drinking.
Nick, I personally see nothing 'wrong' with substituting/editing words
that you think aren't 'right,' for you, for words which seem to be
more accurate, for your own personal use. I did a considerable amount
of that sort of thing. Some would say that I worked an entirely
different program than the one that was offered to me. I also kept in
mind that if/when my substitution(s) didn't turn out to give me the
results I wanted/needed then I had to be willing to backup and try
something else until I found what worked for me.
When I first went to an A.A. group for help I was almost completely
unable to read past some of the language I saw in the BB text. Every
time I read anything of an religious nature my mind would shut down.
However, I was able to read some of the stories in the back of the BB
text. Then I was able read some of the appendix. Ha! It wouldn't be
too far out to say that I read the BB from back to front. I didn't
really read the first 7 Chapters, with the exception of Chapter 4,
until I found my sponsor. He either didn't see anything 'wrong' with
my editing the sticky parts or he decided to keep his opinions to
himself. Even when I asked for his opinion he was very reluctant to
give it. He said things like, "It's best if you decide that for
yourself," quite alot.
>The other slogans which really annoy me are "your best thinking got you
>here" because it implies I'm useless at running my life and ought to have
>been able to cope with it on my own. Of course I ended up here because
>before AA I didn't understand the nature of my problem!
Ok, Nick. It annoyed me, too. As it appears that you see, there is
more than one way to interpret that phrase (and all of the other
ones). Folks will still be seriously annoy me when they use that
phrase, on another, as if to say, 'Your stinking thinking drinking
totally screwed up every aspect of your whole life and that's what got
you here. So shut up, sit down, and don't speak unless spoken to.
You've got nothing to say that I want to hear.' I've actually heard
A.A. members say something like that to another.
>Finally, I feel that the "utilise, don't analyse" slogan is wrong. There is
>much good stuff in AA which I believe can help me, but there is some rubbish
>you hear too. From now on I plan to listen a bit more critically to avoid
>the bad stuff, some of which I believe can unnecessarily lower your
>self-esteem and increase depression.
That's pretty much what I did, Nick. It worked for me. Maybe it'll
work for you, too, in similar ways. I don't know but I hope you find
your solution(s) to whatever problem(s) you may have.
>Anyway, to return to the main point I believe I have accepted enough about
>the nature of my problems to progress in recovery and even honestly do step
>one - and I feel I should find a new sponsor that agrees...
>
>Any thoughts?
None that are Earth shattering; thank goodness. I think that at some
point one's thinking needs to be acted upon. That way one has an
opportunity to examine the results of their thinking action and can
see for themselves whether or not what they did was helpful to their
own well-being. That's the long form of, "Just do it."
>Nick
>
>PS Apologies to those who pay for bandwidth...
Same here. YabbaDabbaDoo!
Cheers,
Fred
Melia
Hang in there, Nick. I see a future pattern of success here. ;-)
Keep coming back.
Melia
5/24/99
Tommykins
Fred Brumley <fwilliam@!NO_SPAM!.jump.net> wrote in message
news:384c0443...@news.jump.net...
> Howdy Nick. Welcome to the ARAA newsgroup (NG).
>
> On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:10:50 -0000, "Nick" <nic...@altavista.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I've just gone back to AA after another relapse, and I seem to be
building a
> >pattern: 3 days in, 1 day relapse, 14 days in, 1 day relapse, 31 days in,
4
> >day relapse - and so far 2 days back in AA.
>
> That's an interesting looking progression, Nick. I don't have any
> Earthly idea what it may mean will happen to you in the future.
> Perhaps some Soothsayer, Bookmaker, or whomever would make something
> of that. I have serious doubts about paying too much attention to that
> sort of thing... doubts as to it's usefulness in your determintation
> of whether or not AA is for you.
>
Some 'reluctant' snipping.
> None that are Earth shattering; thank goodness. I think that at some
> point one's thinking needs to be acted upon. That way one has an
> opportunity to examine the results of their thinking action and can
> see for themselves whether or not what they did was helpful to their
> own well-being. That's the long form of, "Just do it."
> >Nick
> >
> >PS Apologies to those who pay for bandwidth...
>
> Same here. YabbaDabbaDoo!
>
> Cheers,
> Fred
Well worth reading, thanks :-)
Tommy K (Dublin)
--
tomm...@indigo.ie
Take out INSurance to reply
Steve Mc
> <snip>
> I believe that for me now, the discomfort of recovery is less than that of
> continued drinking
You said it all right there.
When you decide that recovery is worth it, go for it.
Good luck.
Steve
JMK
"Nick" <nic...@altavista.net> wrote:
> Jim McMahon <mcma...@flash.net> wrote in message
> news:CBu24.7606$0p4.8...@news.flash.net...
> <snip>
> >
> > clone to attend AA and abstain from drinking. AA atendance is for
me, an overall positive experience, and so I choose to continue.
>
and
> some people in AA don't like this. Maybe I've read too many anti-AA
books...
And you may have run across too many bleeding deacons, those who do
not believe in critical thinking. That is a skill no longer taught
in our public school system, but which is kept alive in some A.A.
groups. It is the process of taking one fact and comparing it to
another and arriving at an independant conculsion. Used to be both
tolerated and encouraged in A.A. until fairly recently.
> The above part of your post really confuses me. What do you mean by
> > "addicted"?
>
> I mean I can't stop for a week when I want to, sometimes I can't
control the
> amount I drink once I start and it also means that I can't stop both
these
> problems getting worse over time. This I know.
In short, loss of control over the result of your drinking. One of
the classical signs of addiction.
<snip>
> > Then I took some advice from the guy (an alcoholic) that ran the
> > out-patient treatment center I was in and ASKED the next guy I was
> > considering as a sponsor what he expected from people he sponsored,
so
> > I could consider whether or not I could live with it.
It takes some work to recover, work to do the program, work to
be a good participant in an outpatient treatment program. There
is no easier softer way to get well, none at all.
And just as we think we have all of the pieces of the puzzle in place,
finally, it all changes.
The only constant in recovery is CHANGE. The willingness to change
is the key.
Jane
>
> This sounds like really good advice - I'll do it!
>
> > Good luck to you.
>
> Thanks :-)
>
> Take care,
>
> Nick
>
>
--
page 570, "Alcoholics Anonymous":
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everl
ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John_Doe
<jane_moo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Used to be both
> tolerated and encouraged in A.A. until fairly recently.
I marvel at just how you may be able to so decisively discern such
global and certain measures of how "A.A." is in any particular regard.
What a resource.
--
For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:
he...@anon.twwells.com -- for an automatically returned help message
ad...@anon.twwells.com -- for the service's administrator
ano...@anon.twwells.com -- anonymous mail to the administrator
Craig S.
> And you may have run across too many bleeding deacons, those who do
> not believe in critical thinking.
Jane, this is not at all what I understand the term "bleeding deacon,"
as used in AA, to mean. I understand a "bleeding deacons" to be people
with considerable time sober but lacking the ability to step aside in
the spirit of rotation. They are long-timers who keep a spoon in the
pot, who feel it necessary to make their opinion heard always and who
believe that their groups, or in extreme cases AA as a whole, cannot
function or continue without their input and guiding hand. I see the
state of being a "bleeding deacon" to have much more to do with ego
than with critical thinking.
Craig S.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Jim
Craig S. wrote
>Jane, this is not at all what I understand the term "bleeding deacon,"
>as used in AA, to mean. I understand a "bleeding deacons" to be people
>with considerable time sober but lacking the ability to step aside in
>the spirit of rotation.
Another example of the "A.A. twist." When the term was first applied it was
intended for those people who have a set of cries such as "it will never
work" or "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it." The actual term used was
"bleating beacon" (as in sheep). The GV even ran a series titled "The
Bleating Deacon's Corner."
I prefer the term "bleeding deacon." Truth is that I used to be one but I
ran out of blood.
Fred Brumley
wrote:
<...brevity snip...>
>>
>> Same here. YabbaDabbaDoo!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Fred
>
>Tommy K (Dublin)
Ah, thanks Tommy.
I knew mine was long (my article, that is... the message... Ah,
forget it!) ) but then I saw Jim M's bigger one had beat mine...
Well, *that* started off weird and is going nowhere, fast. The English
language... hahahaha... I just love it!
Cheers,
Fred
Lech K. Lesiak
> not believe in critical thinking. That is a skill no longer taught
> in our public school system, but which is kept alive in some A.A.
> groups. It is the process of taking one fact and comparing it to
> another and arriving at an independant conculsion. Used to be both
> tolerated and encouraged in A.A. until fairly recently.
Not in my experience. Right from day one I was made to feel I was asking
too many questions and that I should accept what others told me on faith.
The reverence for the opinion of oldtimers who can barely put a coherent
sentence together is one symptom of this paucity of thought.
Cheers,
Lech
Nick
First off, a very big thankyou for all your posts :-)
I've just returned home after a week away on a training course (work). I was
driving down for the course on Monday morning idly wondering what the police
would make of Nick driving along, tears streaming down his face, doing 90 in
a 70 zone... I was quite convinced that day that I couldn't cope, that I
would relapse and that at the end of the week I'd be on my knees beating on
the door of the treatment centre down the road saying "take my money and let
me in".
And, whilst it has been tough this week, it hasn't been like that. I didn't
pick up a drink, I've started talking to my sponsor again and -
miraculously - I sat in a bar for 2 hours one night without _wanting_ a
drink! I even survived 2 course exams and a phone interview for some
consultancy work next week, so my boss is happy too.
I had one of those 'life' moments last Sunday - I was sat reading "The Betty
Ford Center Book of Answers", came across yet another of those quizzes about
the warning signs of alcoholism where, as usual, 3+ indicates likely
alcoholism and, as usual, I scored 9. And, after 2 months in AA, if felt
like the penny finally dropped and I said out loud "Nick, by anyone's
description, you're an alcoholic!". And this has been going round in my head
for a week, and I can honestly now say I'm an alcoholic and its fine by me.
And I never thought I'd type that.
I really am starting to accept the seriousness of my problem and admitting
to myself that keeping away from the drink _is_ a life and death matter for
me. So here I am 8 days away from the last drink, but my recovery feels
'safer' than it has ever felt before.
I was explaining to my sponsor this week about how I have never enjoyed life
and how I've always felt trapped in a box, where nothing I ever did was good
enough, and how I've never been at peace with myself or have enjoyed what I
do for any length of time. This was all true before I picked up the drink.
So many people in AA say they've learnt to love themselves and enjoy life -
and while I have no empathy with these concepts I shall probably be forced
to conclude at some point they're not _all_ lying. This gives me hope.
I'm kind of hesitating before sending this off - I have had false dawns
before: this might be another. But for now I'm going to relax and enjoy
feeling ok while it lasts :-)
Mean Green Troll Machine
wrote:
>I'm kind of hesitating before sending this off - I have had false dawns
>before: this might be another. But for now I'm going to relax and enjoy
>feeling ok while it lasts :-)
It's been my experience that while the strong light of dawn shines,
it's best that I get going about my business for the day :) Somehow,
when darkness falls once again, business accomplished provides a
warming glow until the dawn comes again.
Best,
Kimba
You did then what you knew how to do; and when you knew better, you did
better.
- Maya Angelou
remove "golightly" to reply
Arthur
> Good evening :-)
>
> First off, a very big thankyou for all your posts :-)
>
>
> I was explaining to my sponsor this week about how I have never enjoyed
life
> and how I've always felt trapped in a box, where nothing I ever did was
good
> enough, and how I've never been at peace with myself or have enjoyed what
I
> do for any length of time. This was all true before I picked up the drink.
> So many people in AA say they've learnt to love themselves and enjoy
life -
> and while I have no empathy with these concepts I shall probably be forced
> to conclude at some point they're not _all_ lying. This gives me hope.
>
> before: this might be another. But for now I'm going to relax and enjoy
> feeling ok while it lasts :-)
>
>
Hello Nick,
And thank YOU for your post.
You describe exactly how I, and I am sure many others here, felt before
picking up the booze. For a time my drinking took the edge off these
feelings and I relied on that instead of learning how to deal with them in
other ways. When the alcohol could no longer maintain the illusion, oblivion
becamr the name of the game.
And, yes, it IS possible to learn to do things that we did not do earlier
and to unlearn others that keep us stuck in a rut but it takes time and
patience and, sometimes, a bit more suffering. My experience has been that
to get rid of the pain one has to face it, allow it to be, see it for what
it really is and then, having come to understand it, just let it go -
burying it was not the answer for me as all that happened was that at
vulnerable times it returned and I still didn't know how to deal with it..
The AA program provides some tools to help people do this - it worked for me
and I do hope you are able to get to where I am today, too.
Good luck,
--
Arthur
My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure.
Derek M.
Craig S. <cspurloc...@mtneer.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:136f266c...@usw-ex0101-002.remarq.com...
> In article <82p963$mfu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, JMK
> <jane_moo...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > And you may have run across too many bleeding deacons, those who do
>
> as used in AA, to mean. I understand a "bleeding deacons" to be people
> with considerable time sober but lacking the ability to step aside in
> pot, who feel it necessary to make their opinion heard always and who
> believe that their groups, or in extreme cases AA as a whole, cannot
> function or continue without their input and guiding hand. I see the
> state of being a "bleeding deacon" to have much more to do with ego
> than with critical thinking.
>
> Craig S.
I see you've met the sarge.
--
Derek
http://derekm.home.mindspring.com
http://www.bannerdudes.com/fransway
http://members.xoom.com/tascna
http://listen.to/recovery
>
>
Jim McMahon
>On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:05:41 -0000, "Nick" <nic...@altavista.net>
>wrote:
>>I'm kind of hesitating before sending this off - I have had false dawns
>>before: this might be another. But for now I'm going to relax and enjoy
>>feeling ok while it lasts :-)
>It's been my experience that while the strong light of dawn shines,
>it's best that I get going about my business for the day :) Somehow,
>when darkness falls once again, business accomplished provides a
>warming glow until the dawn comes again.
>Best,
>Kimba
My, how poetically put! Think I'll steal this one if you don't mind.
Kimba
wrote:
>My, how poetically put! Think I'll steal this one if you don't mind.
Be my guest :)
Fred Brumley
wrote:
>Good evening :-)
Hi Nick. Good to hear from you.
<...brevity snip...>
>alcoholism and, as usual, I scored 9. And, after 2 months in AA, if felt
>like the penny finally dropped and I said out loud "Nick, by anyone's
>description, you're an alcoholic!". And this has been going round in my head
>for a week, and I can honestly now say I'm an alcoholic and its fine by me.
>And I never thought I'd type that.
Well, Nick, it takes whatever it takes for the individual to come to
that conclusion, for themselves. It took me... oh, I don't really
remember... it took me longer than 2 months to come to an conclusion
that I was most likely an alcoholic of some variety. I didn't/don't
believe that I'm an hopeless case in all respects but I was/am as
certain as I can be that I'm hopeless with respect to my ever being an
'normal' drinker. The effects of my alcohol use on my behavior
resulted in my doing alot of damage to myself and others around me.
>I really am starting to accept the seriousness of my problem and admitting
>to myself that keeping away from the drink _is_ a life and death matter for
>me. So here I am 8 days away from the last drink, but my recovery feels
>'safer' than it has ever felt before.
Congratulations, Nick, on putting together 8 consecutive days of
sobriety. Yaahoo! May you have many more days of the same.
Speaking of life and death matters, my realization that I had to stop
drinking alcohol came to me as I sat in my totaled vehicle and looked
out my windshield at the chaos of wrecked vehicles around me. As
fortune would have it, up to that time, my habitual drinking and
driving behavior hadn't resulted in some innocent's untimely death
and/or serious bodily injury; *serious* being anything more than minor
cuts and bruises. I quickly came to realize that *any* injury I did/do
to another in such an manner is *serious bodily injury* as well as
*serious emotional injury.*
Frankly, I knew an awful lot of things intellectually speaking, about
the real effects of alcohol on my mind, body, and spirit, that I
seemingly couldn't/wouldn't do anything about behaviorly speaking. It
took me around 90 days to begin breaking through that bizarre barrier
between my actual knowledge and my actual behavior. It was about a
year, for me, before the year's of near continuous use of alcohol...
alcohol's long-term accumulation of effects on my mind, body, and
spirit were pretty clearly evident to me. I realize that some of
alcohol's effects on my body/mind won't likely ever be repaired. For
one thing, my memory is certainly not as spry/reliable as it used to
be.
>I was explaining to my sponsor this week about how I have never enjoyed life
>and how I've always felt trapped in a box, where nothing I ever did was good
>enough, and how I've never been at peace with myself or have enjoyed what I
>do for any length of time. This was all true before I picked up the drink.
>So many people in AA say they've learnt to love themselves and enjoy life -
>and while I have no empathy with these concepts I shall probably be forced
>to conclude at some point they're not _all_ lying. This gives me hope.
Heh! :o) You are not alone in that, Nick.
>I'm kind of hesitating before sending this off - I have had false dawns
>before: this might be another. But for now I'm going to relax and enjoy
>feeling ok while it lasts :-)
IMO, those are 'good' things, Nick. In my expereince, having
certainties about the results I'm going to get from some decided
course of beliefs/actions hasn't too often been all it's cracked up to
be. In many respects, I'm much more comfortable with my attitude of
uncertainties about *the truth* of many and varied things than I am
comfortable with having an attitude of certainties about those things.
Well, I've gone on longer than I had intended. I hope you find
something helpful to you, in your participation in the ARAA NG, Nick,
as well as in your participation in the fellowship of A.A.
Cheers,
Fred
Fred Brumley
(Mean Green Troll Machine) wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:05:41 -0000, "Nick" <nic...@altavista.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I'm kind of hesitating before sending this off - I have had false dawns
>>before: this might be another. But for now I'm going to relax and enjoy
>>feeling ok while it lasts :-)
>
>It's been my experience that while the strong light of dawn shines,
>it's best that I get going about my business for the day :) Somehow,
>when darkness falls once again, business accomplished provides a
>warming glow until the dawn comes again.
Write on and right on, Princess!
Make that list and check it twice,
to find out for yourself
whether you've been naughty or nice...
;o)***
Cheers,
Fred
Nick
happened?
Anyway, MGTM/Kimba wrote:
> It's been my experience that while the strong light of dawn shines,
> it's best that I get going about my business for the day :) Somehow,
> when darkness falls once again, business accomplished provides a
> warming glow until the dawn comes again.
This is a _good_ thought :-) I rarely like the life I wake up to these days,
but I _can_ get a warming glow from business accomplished.
And while I'm here my slogan of the week (yes, yes I know I hate slogans...)
is "Don't give up 5 minutes before the miracle!"
Take care,
Kimba
Brumley) wrote:
>Make that list and check it twice,
>to find out for yourself
>whether you've been naughty or nice...
Hehe howzabout nicely naughty?
Kimba
a multi-directional lil troll
John_Doe
<Pine.A41.4.05.991210...@srv1.calcna.ab.ca>, Lech K.
Lesiak <lkle...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
Use your critical thinking to think that through, then.
Of course, an alcoholic that's been drinking insanely for awhile first
shows up and often just isn't in much shape to be puzzling a lot of
things out, probably. Obviously, they've had their critical thinker
purposed a bit skewed, while pickling it.
Maybe a little later comes the time and a better ability to get all
that cleared up, too. First things first.
What I wonder is, why does anyone stay if their initial take is that AA
is not what they need or want - whatever their early experience with it
happens to be like?
I noticed right away that no one made me be there, no one made me stay
there, and no one made me return. I was completely free to simply walk
out the door at any time and never return. And, while there, didn't
really have to subject myself to anyone or anything, or personally
perform anything I'd rather not.
So I had no problem fully recognizing that I was facing a choice for
me, by me, about me.
Lech K. Lesiak
> What I wonder is, why does anyone stay if their initial take is that AA
> is not what they need or want - whatever their early experience with it
> happens to be like?
The lack of critical thinking in AA rooms doesn't mean that there is
nothing else there for someone. I didn't come to AA to learn Aristotilean
logic - I went to find out how I could stop worrying about my drinking. I
have derived many benefits from AA, but expansion of my intllectual
horizons ain't one of them.
Cheers,
Lech
John_Doe
<Pine.A41.4.05.991212...@srv1.calcna.ab.ca>, Lech K.
Lesiak <lkle...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
Exactly. Good for you.
I've found a range of real human values in my AA involvement, quite
beyond even the sobriety (or maybe as inherent with it). No, it's not
generally been a frontal lobe workout, although I've met some very
sharp persons, too. But edifying to be sure.
Fred Brumley
(Kimba) wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:10:19 GMT, fwilliam@!NO_SPAM!.jump.net (Fred
>Brumley) wrote:
>
>>Make that list and check it twice,
>>to find out for yourself
>>whether you've been naughty or nice...
>
>Hehe howzabout nicely naughty?
Wowza Yowza, sweetheart! <LOL>
As far back as I can remember, I wasn't much of an black'n'white
thinking kinda kid. Pretty early on in life I saw that there're alot
of grey areas, to complicate my having certainty about many things in
life. Perhaps that has something to do with my having such early
doubts about the religion of my childhood and other particular (and
seemingly peculiar) ways of thinking that I was exposed to in my
youth... such as, "The only good ___ is a dead ___."
Also, it seems to me, that one result of the effects of my progressive
alcohol use, perhaps, on my thinking/perception, was that as my brain
became more pickled I became more blindered toward many of the grey
areas of life. As an active alcoholic I was much more certain... much
more closed-minded... about what was black and what was white.
Now, I see many of the grey areas of life again and whatever
black'n'white there may be to many of life's questions has once again
become more uncertain, for me. In my experience, that can be an
fearful state of mind to be in. But, in my uncertainty about life's
questions my fears and especially my irrational fears have much less
of an hold on me than they once had. It's much easier for me to laugh
in the face of my fears and cope with them in an rational manner than
it has ever before been, for me.
I have an attitude of gratitude toward the fellowship and program of
recovery of A.A. for much of that. It sure enough helped me