The REAL alcoholic

[tedw]

When did you discover you are a REAL Alcoholic (TM)? How did that happen?

There are a lot of people who go to AA meetings, most do not call themselves REAL Alcoholics. Is it possible that many of these AA's are NOT REAL AlCOHOLICS?

Are there people in AA calling themselves alcoholics in AA yet they are NOT REAL ALCOHOLICS?

If you think that is the case, how common is it? 25% ? 50%? 75%?

[badgolferman]

A “Real Alcoholic” is someone who cannot safely predict what will happen
once they take a drink. Most likely they will trigger a response which will
compel them to drink more until they lose control.

I accepted that I was a real alcoholic when I started working on my Fourth
Step and was able to see how my drinking would always get out of control
once I started.

I believe at least 50% of people in AA are not “real alcoholics” but rather
“potential alcoholics” as the 12x12 describes. These are people who had
some trouble with alcohol and just chose to not drink. The real alcoholic
cannot just choose to not drink, they need a psychic change or spiritual
experience to change them from the inside.

[tedw]

So you believe 50% of the people who go to AA and call themselves alcoholics are not really alcoholics. Interesting. I wonder how many people here agree with you.

[badgolferman]

I didn’t say they aren’t alcoholics, I said they’re not *real* alcoholics.
And in any case, if any of the people here accept the Big Book as the
authority on alcoholism and recovery from it, they would agree with me. I
can only think of one or two people.

[Socrates]

The path to righteous indignation is paved with vengeance and despair.
AA is a fellowship, a gathering of highly intelligent Homo Sapiens
devoted to understanding, cooperation, improved living and culture. You,
clearly, do not fit in or understand. And you never will.

[tedw]

Whether or not I accept the Big Book as THE AUTHORITY on alcoholism is subject for another time, but I will acknowledge there is a lot of good things in there.
I have read it: All four editions which is more than most here can say.

Where exactly in the Big Book does it say there are two kinds of Alcoholics? Real Alcoholics and Alcoholics.

[tedw]

AA is a place of Culture? I would like to hear what LaRocca has to say about that assessment.

[badgolferman]

There are many places where it differentiates the difference between a real
alcoholic and and others. Page 21 is a good place for you to start.

[Robert Dye]

Yeah. That's very weak use of language, IMNSHO.

AN "alcoholic" vs. a "real alcoholic."

Why not have another category: A "REALLY real alcoholic."

We'll never change that phrasing, at least not in the regular edition of the BB.

Were it up to me, I'd replace "real alcoholic" with "alcoholic," and usage where they perhaps did not mean "real alcoholic" with "heavy drinker" or "problem drinker."

Good thing it isn't up to me.

[badgolferman]

The real alcoholic is another word for a chronic alcoholic. It’s those who
cannot control their drinking once they start as opposed to those who just
drink habitually. Most normal people consider those who drink regularly as
alcoholics, but we consider those as potential alcoholics because they can
quit if presented with a good reason. The real alcoholic can’t just quit
without something greater than their own willpower.

[weary flake]

On 5/28/22 3:29 PM, badgolferman wrote:
> The real alcoholic is another word for a chronic alcoholic. It’s those who
> cannot control their drinking once they start as opposed to those who just
> drink habitually. Most normal people consider those who drink regularly as
> alcoholics, but we consider those as potential alcoholics because they can
> quit if presented with a good reason. The real alcoholic can’t just quit
> without something greater than their own willpower.
>

The Big Book says it best when it says there is no identifiable point in time
that distinguishes real alcoholics from when they were "just" problem drinkers.

How many angels can dance on a pin? How many bottles can a cupboard hold?
How many drunks must a drunk drank to qualify as a drunk?

[tedw]

Your sort of twisting the Big Book to suit your purposes. It only describes one type of alcoholic: the Real Alcoholic. Your estimated 50% of AA members would be problem drinkers of various types , not Alcoholics. Your really saying 50% of the Alcoholics in AA (your estimate) who call themselves Alcoholics are really not.

[Robert Dye]

Well, yeah.

It's sort of like the difference between an "idiot" and a "real idiot."

[Dexter]

-----------------------------

Nunya damn bidness, Teddy boy.

[tedw]

The Big Book describers several types of Drinkers, but it reserves the term Alcoholic for only a certain description or class of drinker. That's a fact, it does not describe two types of Alcoholics.

[tedw]

http://www.aatheoriginalway.com/types-of-drinkers

"...for those who are unable to drink moderately..."


AA Does not say That ALL Problem Drinking is a Progressive Illness


What is says on Pg 30:3, after describing many other types of drinkers (many of whom can stop or moderate), is in regards to “real alcoholics”, who have lost control.

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/28/2022 5:29 PM, badgolferman wrote:

>
> The real alcoholic is another word for a chronic alcoholic. It’s those who
> cannot control their drinking once they start as opposed to those who just
> drink habitually. Most normal people consider those who drink regularly as
> alcoholics, but we consider those as potential alcoholics because they can
> quit if presented with a good reason. The real alcoholic can’t just quit
> without something greater than their own willpower.
>

So say you have two people whose drinking has been perfectly parallel,
who have created the same amount of chaos, who have lost the same number
of jobs, friends, and wives. They've matched each other drink for drink,
problem for problem.

Both get a DUI and quit drinking on the same day. One goes to AA and is
all in with the program. The other quits cold turkey and never picks up
another drink.

Based on your definition we /know the guy who quit cold turkey wasn't a
*real* alcoholic. But how do we know if the other guy /was/ ? Oh yeah...
we send them out for some experimental controlled drinking once they're
dried out. It's a bit like the Salem witch trials. If one of them dies
trying, you'll know he was the real deal.

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/28/2022 6:56 PM, Robert Dye wrote:

>
> It's sort of like the difference between an "idiot" and a "real idiot."

C'mon, it's not that hard, Rob.

A *plain* alcoholic is one who can quit on his own.

A *real* alcoholic is one who can only be saved by God.

And a *goddamned* alcoholic is a *real* alcoholic who doesn't let God
save him.

Then ther's a *fucking* alcoholic, who may be *plain* or *real*, but
also suffers from a sex addiction.

:-)

[Skeezix LaRocca]

To me, this whole *REAL_ALCOHOLIC* debate seems like a bunch of guys all
trying to out do the next guy to get the tough guy badge.

It is running neck and neck in the lead for the most overdone, gag
worthy arguement in AA with recovered vs. recovering.

--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed

[Skeezix LaRocca]

On 5/28/22 18:29, badgolferman wrote:

>
> The real alcoholic is another word for a chronic alcoholic. It’s those who
> cannot control their drinking once they start as opposed to those who just
> drink habitually. Most normal people consider those who drink regularly as
> alcoholics, but we consider those as potential alcoholics because they can
> quit if presented with a good reason. The real alcoholic can’t just quit
> without something greater than their own willpower.
>

I have had this discussion with you before and you still can't seem to
get beyond the belief that that *something* could be hearing the promise
from a judge telling a guy that one more time and he's going to prison,
or a doctor telling a guy that he is going to die very soon if he
doesn't quit...Granted, the drunks realization that all is lost, causing
him to quit may come from some supernatural source, but who knows, or
frankly even cares, if you can't prove the reason ?

[tedw]

I believe this is what Herbert Fingarette was saying in his book "Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease"

That is, if the "alcoholic" is sufficiently motivated he can quit.

[tedw]

But that disregards the doctrine of " The Big Book says it, I believe it, and that's that"
And also the corollary doctrine of "Alcoholism is a disease: that's settled"

[Skeezix LaRocca]

Well, I do believe in the steps..They worked for me and they are the
program..Much of the BB is the *opinion* of the authors and how they
believe...I'm not saying the BB is to be disregarded, just that I don't
treat it as gospel.

[Socrates]

Hey..., leave me outa this breakdown.

[tedw]

I believe there is a lot of good stuff in the Big Book too, especially about resentment. But it is not the Gospel, the Gospel is the Gospel