How did you arrive at the door of AA ?

[Skeezix LaRocca]

I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a drink, to get
the boss or the judge off my back or anything like that...I had been dry
and very unhappy for 6 years and when things got really tough would
smoke some weed, which was a very poor substitute...I imagine I was
close to a drink and that scared me.

I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I said...Show me some
of that happy shit...end of story.
--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed

[Ted H]

On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:32:16 -0400,
Skeezix LaRocca <fatl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a drink,
> to get the boss or the judge off my back or anything like
> that...I had been dry and very unhappy for 6 years and when
> things got really tough would smoke some weed, which was a very
> poor substitute...I imagine I was close to a drink and that
> scared me.
>
> I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I said...Show
> me some of that happy shit...end of story.

I was court ordered to outpatient treatment, and made it from
there to AA. But I'd reached a point I was ready anyway.

--
Ted H.

[jimbo]

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:32:18 AM UTC-4, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a drink, to get
> the boss or the judge off my back or anything like that...I had been dry
> and very unhappy for 6 years and when things got really tough would
> smoke some weed, which was a very poor substitute...I imagine I was
> close to a drink and that scared me.
>
> I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I said...Show me some
> of that happy shit...end of story.
> --

Kicking and screaming! It took a few years to destroy my powerful
rationalizations.

[badgolferman]

After two forced treatment centers courtesy of the Air Force, I still
wasn’t ready to let go of the only thing I cherished. It wasn’t until I
actually tried to stop drinking and found out I couldn’t that I became so
depressed that I was ready to die. I thought I would give AA a try because
it was the only place I ever felt somewhat comfortable during rehab. When I
finally came to AA on my own, that is when I was ready to hear the message.
A few months later I had a vital spiritual experience which completely
convinced me of my powerlessness and that there was a God who would help
me.

[Mark Warner]

Same here. Court imposed the initiative and structure I needed to get
started.

--
Mark Warner
MX Linux KDE
Registered Linux User #415318
...lose .inhibitions when replying

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/26/2022 9:32 AM, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a drink, to get
> the boss or the judge off my back or anything like that...I had been dry
> and very unhappy for 6 years and when things got really tough would
> smoke some weed, which was a very poor substitute...I imagine I was
> close to a drink and that scared me.
>
> I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I said...Show me some
> of that happy shit...end of story.

In 1990 I was 31, had been married 10 years, and had two young children.
My drinking had become an increasing source of friction. I had run out
of apologies and promises, so one day after a particularly bad fight I
told her I'd go to an AA meeting, and I did.

I heard a lot of shit I could identify with, and yet I still heard a lot
of things that made me say, "Well, I'm not /that/ bad."

Long story short, for seven years I went to meetings off and on, but
never got sober. Part of me wanted to stop, but I kept thinking if I
went to enough meetings I would get struck sober one day. It just never
happened.

Ted H. posted something in another venue that said everybody wants to be
successful until they find out what it takes. That was me. I wanted
sobriety, but I wasn't prepared to do the work. Eventually it was
literally a question of do or die, and *that's* when I got struck
sober... when I made the decision to do whatever it took.

[tedw]

You substituted one drug for another. At least it reads that way. You were trying to find in one drug what you had found in another yet had for someone reason given the other drug up for six years.

[tedw]

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:32:18 AM UTC-7, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:

I knew it. LaRocca is not really an alcoholic, he is a drug addict.

[tedw]

What was your vital spiritual experinece?

[Skeezix LaRocca]

No, I'm a garden variety asshole who is just smart enough to know that
he can't handle liquor in a sensible manner.

[tedw]

"I'm a garden variety asshole" --- a sinner.

[badgolferman]

I have described this before but if you insist…

I was still trying to hang on to the lifestyle and would sometimes go out
with my friends to the night clubs in the guise that I would be the
designated driver for them. Never mind that I didn’t have a license…

One night on the way to the club when I was sitting in the back seat there
was a bottle of tequila being passed around the car. I passed on it twice
hesitantly, but by the third time I could no longer muster the power to do
it. I put the bottle up to my lips and as I was about to tilt it, a thought
came through my mind which they used to say in meetings then. “The day will
come when nothing will stand in your way of drink except for a Power
greater than yourself.” I was not a believer in God then but had been
experimenting with the idea of a guardian angel as a higher power. I closed
my eyes and silently reached out to a god I didn’t believe in and prayed
“God, it you’re there please take this feeling away from me.”
Instantaneously the compulsion to drink was lifted and I didn’t want the
bottle anymore. At that moment I knew there was a God and that He would
help me to not drink again. I didn’t want to be with those people anymore
and just stayed outside the club for hours waiting for them to come out.

That night when I returned from the club I called my sponsor and told him
what had happened. He said it sounds like you just had a Step Two
experience. Even though it was a very late hour he came over and we took
the Third Step together and he then gave me one month to complete my Fourth
Step. I have had a few more similar experiences but none as sudden and
revealing as that. This is how I became convinced, not by looking for
tangible proof, but asking for and receiving help in my weakest moment.

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/27/2022 11:56 AM, badgolferman wrote:


> One night on the way to the club when I was sitting in the back seat there
> was a bottle of tequila being passed around the car. I passed on it twice
> hesitantly, but by the third time I could no longer muster the power to do
> it. I put the bottle up to my lips and as I was about to tilt it, a thought
> came through my mind which they used to say in meetings then. “The day will
> come when nothing will stand in your way of drink except for a Power
> greater than yourself.” I was not a believer in God then but had been
> experimenting with the idea of a guardian angel as a higher power. I closed
> my eyes and silently reached out to a god I didn’t believe in and prayed
> “God, it you’re there please take this feeling away from me.”
> Instantaneously the compulsion to drink was lifted and I didn’t want the
> bottle anymore. At that moment I knew there was a God and that He would
> help me to not drink again. I didn’t want to be with those people anymore
> and just stayed outside the club for hours waiting for them to come out.

You do know there are atheists who believe in the power of prayer,
right? It can be viewed as a conscious act of surrender. In saying that
prayer, asking for help from a source outside your will, you were
admitting to yourself that you had no control over what would happen if
you took that drink.

Did a creator God remove your compulsion to drink, or did you finally
have that moment of clarity where you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt
that drinking from that bottle would end badly?

I can't answer that.

I only know that I had a similar experience of having the compulsion
suddenly and totally removed, and in my case there was no prayer
involved. For me it was simply the decision to turn my will over to the
experts at the treatment hospital, having become totally convinced that
I was powerless to fix myself.

[tedw]

I actually like that Mike and believe it also. I note no fancy notions of Jesus being God and the Doctrine of the Trinity were required. I had something similar happen but not with Alcohol but cigarettes.

I could not stop smoking no matter how hard I tried, at least for not any sustained period of time. I had tried countless times. Worse yet I had tremendous inner conflict over the matter and could not be at peace and resign myself to a life where I was a chronic smoker. Finally, in desperation, I got on my knees and asked God to take my cigarette smoking away.

The prayer I said was this " God if it is your will that I stop smoking , please give me the strength as I cannot do it"

A day later I amazingly found I could not pick up a cigarette and it did not require any effort at all on my part, and , at the same time, I felt the presence of an inner Light in my consciousness. I never picked up a cigarette again. That was 46 years ago. I never even think about it, and I haven't for decades.

So you see, I believe some of the ideas contained in the steps. When it happened I had no clearly defined notion of God at all, not quite sure he even existed but hoped He did.

You may see some similar spiritual principles at work here:

1) I was powerless and admitted complete defeat.
2) I believe, albeit tenuously, that God might help me.
3) I asked for His help.

So, I am all for "Alcoholics" doing the same thing. I just don't believe they need to believe they are physically different or have a disease. And if they choose never ever to touch a drop again under any circumstances I am ok with that too, but it doesn't mean I have to accept all AA teaching as Dogma given by the Most High.

[Socrates]

Heh, more than one road to sobriety, more than one version of clarity.

Having the shakes and *needing* a drink to get relief from anxiety,
depression, fatigue, irritability certainly can lead some to sobriety
via a higher power.

Fortunately, it led me to a medical doctor and the test for
hypoglycemia, and an understanding of the role of low blood sugar in
alcoholism which led to the choice to stop drinking.

https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-and-hypoglycemia/

[Socrates]

On 5/27/2022 8:15 AM, tedw wrote:

> On May 26, 2022 at 7:32:18 Skeezix LaRocca wrote:

>> I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a drink, to get
>> the boss or the judge off my back or anything like that...I had been dry
>> and very unhappy for 6 years and when things got really tough would
>> smoke some weed, which was a very poor substitute...I imagine I was
>> close to a drink and that scared me.
>>
>> I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I said...Show me some
>> of that happy shit...end of story.

> You substituted one drug for another. At least it reads that way. You were
> trying to find in one drug what you had found in another yet had for someone
> reason given the other drug up for six years.

And you opted for mythology and became 'born again' pain in the ass.

[tedw]

No, you are sadly mistaken, I do not believe in any mythology.

[tedw]

So do all the other Alcoholic expert here agree with you on the role of low blood sugar?

[jimbo]

What is a creator God?

[Socrates]

"Here?" Once sober it becomes irrelevant. Unfortunately, it remains a
rarely understood element in alcoholism, and once one is secure in their
sobriety it's not all that interesting or relevant.

The few that I have helped over the years were blown away by the
simplicity of understanding and dealing with hypoglycemia. I may be an
agnostic but I have never ridiculed anyone's journey or strategy for
achieving sobriety. If an old friend or new acquaintance was struggling
with alcohol I would make a point of sharing my understanding and
experience.

[Socrates]

Jesus rising from the dead is a myth.

It's not like I'm alone with this idea Ted. A search of "The role of
mythology in world religions" gets 2,330,000,000 results. Good chance to
widen your understanding:

tiny.cc/u32suz

https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+role+of+mythology+in+world+religions&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=the+role+of+mythology+in+world+religions&sc=0-40&qs=n&sk=&cvid=D5B029F723474A8680AAABBE87AD1792

[Robert Dye]

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 6:01:46 PM UTC-5, Socrates wrote:
> On 5/27/2022 2:17 PM, tedw wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 12:07:33 PM UTC-7, Socrates wrote:
> >> On 5/27/2022 8:15 AM, tedw wrote:
> >>> On May 26, 2022 at 7:32:18 Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
>
> >>>> I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a drink, to get
> >>>> the boss or the judge off my back or anything like that...I had been dry
> >>>> and very unhappy for 6 years and when things got really tough would
> >>>> smoke some weed, which was a very poor substitute...I imagine I was
> >>>> close to a drink and that scared me.
>
> >>>> I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I said...Show me some
> >>>> of that happy shit...end of story.
>
> >>> You substituted one drug for another. At least it reads that way. You were
> >>> trying to find in one drug what you had found in another yet had for someone
> >>> reason given the other drug up for six years.
>
> >> And you opted for mythology and became 'born again' pain in the ass.
>
> > No, you are sadly mistaken, I do not believe in any mythology.
> Jesus rising from the dead is a myth.

As you might imagine, Frank, the closest I can come here is to agree to disagree,sort of.

I absolutely cannot agree with those Anglican ministers who hold they do not necessarily believe in the literal Resurrection of Jesus (or even the existence of God!). I consider that rank hypocrisy.

I am convinced the early disciples and the apostles encountered a Jesus "really risen," the the concept of "real" here is doing some *very* heavy lifting.

My own faith teaches and affirms the actual physical resurrection of Jesus, but my own suspicion is that what they experienced would leave *my* concept of "real and physical" looking like pretty weak tea.

But I'll certainly agree with you that the resurrection narrative features many "mythic"/symbolic elements, just as the Gospel accounts in general.

[badgolferman]

Robert Dye <fr.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I absolutely cannot agree with those Anglican ministers who hold they do
> not necessarily believe in the literal Resurrection of Jesus (or even the
> existence of God!). I consider that rank hypocrisy.
>

Is this real? I didn’t know there are Christian ministers who don’t believe
in the Resurrection. Isn’t that the most important thing to believe in?
Supposedly it validates everything Jesus said and did.

What are these Anglicans — Presbyterians?

[Ted H]

On Fri, 27 May 2022 08:09:47 -0500,
Charlie M. 1958 <alw...@impatient.com> wrote:
> On 5/26/2022 9:32 AM, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> > I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a
> > drink, to get the boss or the judge off my back or anything
> > like that...I had been dry and very unhappy for 6 years and
> > when things got really tough would smoke some weed, which was
> > a very poor substitute...I imagine I was close to a drink and
> > that scared me.
> >
> > I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I
> > said...Show me some of that happy shit...end of story.

Very nice.

> In 1990 I was 31, had been married 10 years, and had two young
> children. My drinking had become an increasing source of
> friction. I had run out of apologies and promises, so one day
> after a particularly bad fight I told her I'd go to an AA
> meeting, and I did.
>
> I heard a lot of shit I could identify with, and yet I still
> heard a lot of things that made me say, "Well, I'm not /that/
> bad."

LOL. I went to my first meeting (York St, Club in Denver) in the
late 80s just so I could say I'd been and it wasn't for me.

> Long story short, for seven years I went to meetings off and
> on, but never got sober. Part of me wanted to stop, but I kept
> thinking if I went to enough meetings I would get struck sober
> one day. It just never happened.
>
> Ted H. posted something in another venue that said everybody
> wants to be successful until they find out what it takes. That
> was me. I wanted sobriety, but I wasn't prepared to do the
> work. Eventually it was literally a question of do or die, and
> *that's* when I got struck sober... when I made the decision to
> do whatever it took.

Wait, I said that? Sounds too insightful for something I would
have said.

--
Ted H.

[Robert Dye]

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 7:39:01 PM UTC-5, badgolferman wrote:

No. I'm pretty sure Presbyterians believe in God. They don't even seem to hold to the predestination doctrine at their root.

But C of E ministers are on record (even a bishop, IIRC) that belief in the existence of God or in the resurrection of Jesus is essential to their "faith."

I visited Westminster Abbey when I was in London. This was the first time I understood that the "of England" in "Church of England" does not serve the same purpose as "of Rome" or "of Tulsa" in "Church of Rome" or "CDiocese of Tulsa."

Rather, England *itself* is part of the worship.

(We have this in the USA, but not nearly so blatantly. We call it "civil religion." Bland phrasings such as "In God We Trust," for example, or "Under God" in our pledge as US citizens.)

For some odd reason, Stephen Hawking is interred in Westminster Abbey, even though he was an avowed atheist.

I won't say no Church of England members or ministers believe in God, but if I understand them correctly (and I may not!), such faith is *not* essential.

[Robert Dye]

[Robert Dye]

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 8:14:02 PM UTC-5, Robert Dye wrote:

Whoops!

Should be:

But C of E ministers are on record (even a bishop, IIRC) that belief in the existence of God or in the resurrection of Jesus IS NOT essential to their "faith."

(Very important distinction.)

[Mark Warner]

On 05/27/2022 09:09 AM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
> Ted H. posted something in another venue that said everybody wants to be
> successful until they find out what it takes. That was me. I wanted
> sobriety, but I wasn't prepared to do the work. Eventually it was
> literally a question of do or die, and *that's* when I got struck
> sober... when I made the decision to do whatever it took.

When the price of remaining a failure gets too high, that's when we're
ready to do what it takes to succeed.

[Charlie M. 1958]

Well it may not have been original, but you were insightful enough to
repost it. :-)

As simple as it sounds it struck me as quite profound when I read it.

[Charlie M. 1958]

I wonder if that’s a position taken with an eye on increasing membership
(and donations) by drawing in agnostics.

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/27/2022 8:51 PM, Mark Warner wrote:
> On 05/27/2022 09:09 AM, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:
>> Ted H. posted something in another venue that said everybody wants to be
>> successful until they find out what it takes. That was me. I wanted
>> sobriety, but I wasn't prepared to do the work. Eventually it was
>> literally a question of do or die, and *that's* when I got struck
>> sober... when I made the decision to do whatever it took.
>
> When the price of remaining a failure gets too high, that's when we're
> ready to do what it takes to succeed.
>

I've occasionally used the analogy that I was like a man standing in the
third floor window of a burning building, while firemen on the ground
were holding a net and yelling for me to jump. No matter how much they
insisted they could catch me, jumping didn't seem like a viable option
until my ass was actually on fire.

[Socrates]

LOL

[Robert Dye]

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 9:36:48 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. 1958 wrote:

I suppose, but I cannot imagine anyone who actually believes being willing to remain with an organization that pretends to be based in The Great Commission but *also* says belief in the Resurrection is not strictly necessary.

To be fair, I may have misremembered about the bishop.

Any bishop with a cleric who claims such a thing and does not remove the cleric IMMEDIATELY might just as well come out and agree publicly.

My recollection is that there were some of these guys saying in public they did not believe in God, and yet somehow remained as C of E ministers.

[tedw]

Rob does not appear to like the Church of England. They are Orthodox Trinitarians though.

[Charlie M. 1958]

On 5/28/2022 7:25 AM, Robert Dye wrote:

>
> I suppose, but I cannot imagine anyone who actually believes being willing to remain with an organization that pretends to be based in The Great Commission but *also* says belief in the Resurrection is not strictly necessary.
>
> To be fair, I may have misremembered about the bishop.
>
> Any bishop with a cleric who claims such a thing and does not remove the cleric IMMEDIATELY might just as well come out and agree publicly.
>
> My recollection is that there were some of these guys saying in public they did not believe in God, and yet somehow remained as C of E ministers.

I don't know, Rob. What I'm going to say is based on my own experience
growing up Catholic in a very Catholic area, being educated in Catholic
schools, attending Mass every Sunday until the age of 37, and working at
a Catholic university for the past 26 years.

I think many, if not most folks practice their religion retualistically.
By that I mean the rituals of their religion center them morally, and
give them a sense of community and identity. None of those things
actually /requires/ specific belief. And I doubt most people spend a lot
of time pondering what they truly do or don't believe. Sure, I think
most folks in church are believers. But I suspect a greater number than
you might think are there for the other stuff.

I don't know any of the history, so this is pure speculation. But maybe
those C of E folks are just trying to acknowledge that it's okay to use
the church as your spiritual community and moral center even if some of
the specific beliefs about God don't jive with your intellectual model
of the universe.

[Socrates]

Whole hearted agreement.

[Robert Dye]

For the people in the pews, I *might* agree with you.

Not the ideal, but if we are talking about the reality, I imagine that is quite possible.

But a *cleric?*

No. Just, no.

Any priest, deacon, or bishop who accepts Holy Orders without believing in God and/or the Resurrection of Jesus has made himself (or herself, in the C of E) a complete and total hypocrite.

It would be like sponsoring someone in AA, but not really believing you, personally, need to abstain from alcohol.

I suppose it *might* be possible to do this, but I don't see how you could do it with becoming a total hypocrite.

[Skeezix LaRocca]

On 5/27/22 11:57, tedw wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 8:48:01 AM UTC-7, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
>> On 5/27/22 11:25, tedw wrote:

>>> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:32:18 AM UTC-7, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
>>>> I can't say I came banging on AA's door obsessing over a drink, to get
>>>> the boss or the judge off my back or anything like that...I had been dry
>>>> and very unhappy for 6 years and when things got really tough would
>>>> smoke some weed, which was a very poor substitute...I imagine I was
>>>> close to a drink and that scared me.
>>>>
>>>> I knew 2 people in the program who were happy and I said...Show me some
>>>> of that happy shit...end of story.

>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
>>>> Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
>>>> We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
>>>> No appointment needed
>>>
>>> I knew it. LaRocca is not really an alcoholic, he is a drug addict.
>> No, I'm a garden variety asshole who is just smart enough to know that
>> he can't handle liquor in a sensible manner.
>> --
>> Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
>> Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
>> We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
>> No appointment needed
>
> "I'm a garden variety asshole" --- a sinner.

And one comforting fact is....that you'll be right there with me.

--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed

[Charlie M. 1958]

Fair enough.

I suppose it depends on exactly what was said. If a cleric said that it was
not necessary for a /cleric/ to believe in God and the resurrection you
have a point.

[tedw]

God has forgiven repentant sinners who believe in JC.

[tedw]

IF you accept it LaRocca.

[Mark Warner]

On 05/28/2022 02:03 PM, Robert Dye wrote:
> Any priest, deacon, or bishop who accepts Holy Orders without believing in God and/or the Resurrection of Jesus has made himself (or herself, in the C of E) a complete and total hypocrite.
>
> It would be like sponsoring someone in AA, but not really believing you, personally, need to abstain from alcohol.
>

> I suppose it*might* be possible to do this, but I don't see how you could do it with becoming a total hypocrite.

So it would work for tedw.

[Socrates]

On 5/28/2022 1:05 PM, Mark Warner wrote:
> On 05/28/2022 02:03 PM, Robert Dye wrote:
>> Any priest, deacon, or bishop who accepts Holy Orders without
>> believing in God and/or the Resurrection of Jesus has made himself (or
>> herself, in the C of E) a complete and total hypocrite.
>>
>> It would be like sponsoring someone in AA, but not really believing
>> you, personally, need to abstain from alcohol.
>>

>> I suppose it *might*  be possible to do this, but I don't see how you

>> could do it with becoming a total hypocrite.

> So it would work for tedw.

Ba Da Boom! :)