Death by alcohol
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>Clipped this from a Denver Post article. Was thinking the other day
>how the casualties in Iraq might compare to deaths attributed to
>alcohol. Voila. There are no 2003 figures in here but in 2002, there
>were 17,419.
>
>The question then, is why ex drunks in particular, get so focused on
>the 200 some odd casualties in Iraq (a war zone) and are not up in
>arms, and offended to heated debate over this statistic?
I think you mean 200 fatalities, the casualty count is over 9000
(wounded and injured) since wars inception, but I take your point.
> Well, of course, I know why but I hate to see numbers used
> without some sort of >context. 200 American soldiers killed by
> Iraqi insurgents is surely a tragedy. But what about 15-18000
> citizens at home by drunks?
>Gar
I suppose that for myself, the reason the war loses bug me and the
drunk losses barely cause a flicker is that people in the services
have assumed a duty on behalf of their fellow citizens. Without
getting overly romantic about an institution that at times equates
really shiny shoes with personal vitrue, I view that duty as
essentially a noble calling. I also see that the government has a
duty to the soldiers not squander the lives of soldiers, and for my
part I'm not convinced that the govt has met it's duty.
Drunks on the other hand, have many more ways to kill themselves
than just drunk driving and always will. It's no less tragic, but
it's much more avoidable.
Tom G.
> I suppose that for myself, the reason the war loses bug me and the
> drunk losses barely cause a flicker is that people in the services
> have assumed a duty on behalf of their fellow citizens. Without
> getting overly romantic about an institution that at times equates
> really shiny shoes with personal vitrue, I view that duty as
> essentially a noble calling. I also see that the government has a
> duty to the soldiers not squander the lives of soldiers, and for my
> part I'm not convinced that the govt has met it's duty.
Soldiers know, or should know, that there's the
possibility of going to war and risk gettin' shot at or perhaps
even killed... They know that up front before they get their
paychecks... I don't think they should be put at unnecessary risk
but who's to say what "unnecessary" is...?? The drunks will
always get killed because drunks aren't the smartest creatures
in the world in their cups...
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
Jim Blair
"GaryE" wrote
Collateral damage?
Jim
Kimba
wrote:
>Kansas, South Dakota, Rhode Island and Wisconsin also topped Colorado
>in highest increases.
This ain't news to me.
Folks in AA around here have always had the sense that alcoholism
itself is far more prevalent here than in other places. Once I
started working at the hospital, it further cemented my belief.
I've got a guy right now - 50-something. Came in with pneumonia and
went into liver failure, secondary to cirrhosis. Nice guy, by all
accounts - just drank too much for too long.
He's been dying for the past week.
It's not a pleasant death or an easy one.
He's bleeding from every orifice. A slow oozing kind of bleeding.
It's just a prelude to the massive hemorrhage that will finally take
him.
We've transfused and given specialty blood products in an effort to
stem the bleeding. He's a bit better than he was a week ago - he
opens his eyes now and he nods his head when I talk to him.
He suffers daily indignities that I won't go into. His family seldom
comes and when they do, they stand by his bedside, talk "at" him for a
moment, then leave.
Heaven only knows what the family dynamics were, but now, at his
moment of passing, he shouldn't be alone. Poor man.
We've got another one right now, too. 19 years old - college student.
Home for the weekend back in November - went out with his friends, had
a few drinks, and drove head on into a tree. Massive head injury.
He's trach'ed and he's got a lovely case of spewing pneumonia. We
wear masks and gowns cuz he hacks gook clear across the room. He
can't do anything for himself - he's "semi-conscious", which means
that, when you rub a knuckle, hard, on his sternum, he opens his eyes
and moves around. His mom and his sister are at his bedside
constantly. It's been over a month now - it doesn't look like he's
gonna come back.
I'm pretty sure the first guy is an alcoholic. I'm pretty sure the
second one is just a partying kid.
It's heartbreaking, either way.
So yes, Gary - those "statistic" royally piss me off. I love AA, but
it's barely made an indentation in the whole of the problem. I think
that our society could do a better job in educating kids about booze
and its effects. Sort of like we've done with cigarettes. Maybe
that's where it has to start.
Kimba
--You did then what you knew how to do, and when you knew better, you did better. Maya Angelou
rosie
I think
> that our society could do a better job in educating kids about
booze
> and its effects. Sort of like we've done with cigarettes. Maybe
> that's where it has to start.
>
> Kimba
the tobacco and liquor lobby in washington is
HUGE..................................
the taxes that each state makes on sales of nicotine and alcohol is
a MAJOR part of their budgets.
in wisconsin, beer is considered a DAIRY PRODUCT.
;(
Craig S.
news:l0icuv8r5u2goskhk...@4ax.com...
> Clipped this from a Denver Post article. Was thinking the other day
> how the casualties in Iraq might compare to deaths attributed to
> alcohol. Voila. There are no 2003 figures in here but in 2002, there
> were 17,419.
>
> The question then, is why ex drunks in particular, get so focused on
> the 200 some odd casualties in Iraq (a war zone) and are not up in
> course, I know why but I hate to see numbers used without some sort of
> context. 200 American soldiers killed by Iraqi insurgents is surely a
> Gar
And what about comparable numbers of handgun deaths annually in the U.S.?
And where is the outrage over tobacco induced death and illness?
I agree, Gary - perspective is usually missing when "tragedies" are
reported.
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:33:17 -0600, GaryE <garye...@nadaswbell.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Clipped this from a Denver Post article. Was thinking the other day
>>how the casualties in Iraq might compare to deaths attributed to
>>alcohol. Voila. There are no 2003 figures in here but in 2002, there
>>were 17,419.
>>
>>The question then, is why ex drunks in particular, get so focused on
>>the 200 some odd casualties in Iraq (a war zone) and are not up in
>>arms, and offended to heated debate over this statistic?
>
>I think you mean 200 fatalities, the casualty count is over 9000
>(wounded and injured) since wars inception, but I take your point.
Are you still only counting Americans and Brits. There are casualties
on both sides and Iraq didnt start this.
Ted F.
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>Are you still only counting Americans and Brits.
Actually, I was only counting Americans- after all Gary's traffic
numbers didn't include Brits- and Iraqis. Apples to apples
Andy F
They did start it, when they invaded Kuwait.
JoeRaisin
deaths.
Cancer is cured so all those people live long lives.
Vehicles are designed perfectly and occupants survive any crash so all those
people live ong lives.
Alcohol and drug abuse is solved so all those people live long lives.
Tobacco industry closes and nobody dies from that anymore so all those
people live long lives.
The problems with guns and other weapons are resolved so all those potential
deaths are averted and those people live long lives.
There are no more tragic deaths from fires, storms or other acts of God so
all those people live long lives
How many people would that be world wide that would NOT be taken out of the
picture?
(does anyone have a clue 'cause I don't)
How long could we take it considering we can barely tolerate the population
growth as it is?
Everything, even stupid random tragic death, has a purpose.
"Craig S." <cspurlockt...@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote in message
news:g%XFb.5992$IM3....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Drier
>On 21 Dec 2003 20:13:07 -0600, "John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
>and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>
>>>The question then, is why ex drunks in particular, get so focused on
>>>the 200 some odd casualties in Iraq (a war zone) and are not up in
>>>arms, and offended to heated debate over this statistic?
>>
>>I think you mean 200 fatalities, the casualty count is over 9000
>>(wounded and injured) since wars inception, but I take your point.
>
>What a breath of fresh air...you 'take my point' and didn't isolate
>on the number.
But I will - It's actually closer to 500, 478 to be exact, but I
wouldn't expect a hawk like you to care about being off by that much.
After all, they're only American soldiers.
> Usually my every word is scrutinized for potential
>flaws, real or imagined. Little things mean a lot. (">
Yes they do, and to belittle the loss of life in Iraq is exemplary of
those who think Bush can do no wrong.
>
>
>>I suppose that for myself, the reason the war loses bug me and the
>>drunk losses barely cause a flicker is that people in the services
>>have assumed a duty on behalf of their fellow citizens. Without
>>getting overly romantic about an institution that at times equates
>>really shiny shoes with personal vitrue, I view that duty as
>>essentially a noble calling. I also see that the government has a
>>duty to the soldiers not squander the lives of soldiers, and for my
>>part I'm not convinced that the govt has met it's duty.
>
>It is my opinion that the military generals, the Pentagon, whomever (I
>really don't think Bush intrudes into DoD personally issuing
>strategies and direction and staffing and planning--Rumsfield might
>and likely does) were surprised by the resistance once occupied. (The
>cheering, liberated crowds praising the US, I believe, was Bush's
>vision or his dream). Somehow we don't get it when there is no leader
>to surrender the government that it's not over until its over. Plus
>the open season on US troops drew in a few more 'cells'.
It's too bad Bush didn't think about this when he was lying to us about
the need to go to war in the first place.
>
>As you probably know, it is generals that fuck up.
So you're giving Bush a pass because after all, he merely sent our
troops over there and he didn't actually give direct orders about what
our troops should do?
Where does the buck stop exactly?
>Just like it is
>CEO's who drive companies into the ground. I wondered why Tommy
>Franks got the hell out so quick. I reduce it down to risk. Risk
>'management' is, to me, a metaphor for life's decisions whether they
>be personal or corporate or military. The "Monte Carlo Simulation" of
>a quantum universe, if you will. Few, if any risk are ever
>eliminated. Sure things. Well, besides death and taxes. Some
>unaccounted for variable seems to always screw up sure things. Once
>a decision is made, you wait and see what comes up that you didn't
>think about and then you adjust (or cede, I guess).
>
>>Drunks on the other hand, have many more ways to kill themselves
>>than just drunk driving and always will. It's no less tragic, but
>>it's much more avoidable.
>
>I don't' think it is avoidable. Reducible maybe. But with an
>attitude that it's not avoidable, not much is said about it and we
>leave the problem to the police most of the time....who's primary
>function is 'after the event'. We used to have a film in the military
>that showed you what syphilis looked like on a unprotected member.
>Made an impression (except for the drunks). Maybe if we talked about
>drunks and their pillaging as much as AIDs has been, it might do some
>good. But true, war is much higher profile and the people fighting it
>did assume some known risk. The 3 passengers riding with a fouth
>University of North Texas student who died last weekend maybe didn't
>know their risk.....
>
>Best,
>GaryE
Kai
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:11:25 -0600, GaryE <garye...@nadaswbell.net>
>
>
>>On 21 Dec 2003 20:13:07 -0600, "John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
>>and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>The question then, is why ex drunks in particular, get so focused on
>>>>the 200 some odd casualties in Iraq (a war zone) and are not up in
>>>>arms, and offended to heated debate over this statistic?
>>>
>>>I think you mean 200 fatalities, the casualty count is over 9000
>>>(wounded and injured) since wars inception, but I take your point.
>>
>>What a breath of fresh air...you 'take my point' and didn't isolate
>>on the number.
>
>
> But I will - It's actually closer to 500, 478 to be exact, but I
> wouldn't expect a hawk like you to care about being off by that much.
> After all, they're only American soldiers.
>
I see. 'The casualties' include only American soldiers. Do you know if
any Iraqi people have died in the course of action?
--
Kai
"Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines."
- General "Buck" Turgidson -
Jim Blair
"Kai wrote
'The casualties' include only American soldiers. Do you know if any Iraqi
people have died in the course of action?
It is uncool to count bodies.
Jim
Tex
wrote:
Unless of course you need and are in line for a promotion.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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Drier
To be sure, they have, and many more than the US has lost.
Of course, many of these came at the hands of insurgent Iraqis or even
insurgent non-Iraqis.
Another interesting thing is a headline I saw today, which read
something like "Bomb kills 1 Iraqi, US troops arrest 100".
It didn't really go into much detail about the 100 who were arrested,
but it makes one wonder whether we are just doing mass arrests and not
worrying too much about whether the suspects arrested actually have any
evidence against them other than being in the wrong place at the wrong
time.
I'm not saying the arrests aren't righteous, but it does make one
wonder.
F.H.
> Another interesting thing is a headline I saw today, which read
> something like "Bomb kills 1 Iraqi, US troops arrest 100".
>
> It didn't really go into much detail about the 100 who were arrested,
> but it makes one wonder whether we are just doing mass arrests and not
> worrying too much about whether the suspects arrested actually have any
> evidence against them other than being in the wrong place at the wrong
> time.
The much heralded export of NeoCon democracy.
Gramps
Ted F.
wrote:
>
Especially foreigners.
Ted F.
>Jim
Ted F.
>
>Another interesting thing is a headline I saw today, which read
>something like "Bomb kills 1 Iraqi, US troops arrest 100".
>
>It didn't really go into much detail about the 100 who were arrested,
>but it makes one wonder whether we are just doing mass arrests and not
>worrying too much about whether the suspects arrested actually have any
>evidence against them other than being in the wrong place at the wrong
>time.
People the law forgot
It is almost two years since the Guantanamo prison camp opened. Its
purpose is to hold people seized in the 'war on terror' and defined by
the Bush administration as enemy combatants - though many appear to
have been bystanders to the conflict. Images of Camp Delta's
orange-jumpsuited, manacled detainees have provoked international
outrage. But the real horror they face isn't physical hardship, it is
the threat of infinite confinement, without trial or access to legal
representation. James Meek has spent the past month talking to former
inmates and some of those involved in operating the Pentagon's
Kafkaesque justice system. He has built an unprecedented picture of
life on the base, which we present in this special issue
The story is here:
http://tinyurl.com/xksv
Ted F.
This is no different to what they are doing in Guantanamo Bay.
Shackled and locked up in pens and for what? No access to lawyers or
legal aid, no access to the Red Cross. The US is unanswerable to
anybody. Sounds like dictatorship to me. Isnt one supposed to be
innocent until proven guilty? I'm not saying that all of the ones
locked up are innocent, but some have been there for nearly two years
and had no access to anybody, let alone had any charges laid against
them. Even then, when charges are laid, they face a military court and
we know how impartial that will be, dont we?.
If there is genuine evidence against any of the prisoners, the charges
should be bought and they should face a trial in the proper manner,
which means having a defending lawyer of their own choosing.
Ted F.
David M
> Jim Blair wrote:
>> Kai wrote
>>> 'The casualties' include only American soldiers. Do you
>>> know if any Iraqi people have died in the course of
>>> action?
>> It is uncool to count bodies.
> Especially foreigners.
Yeah. You and Kai would think that was bragging.
Drier
>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:19:21 GMT, "F.H."
><disconne...@chimpthlinkxxx.net> wrote:
>
>>The much heralded export of NeoCon democracy.
>>
>>Gramps
>
>There are sinister people everywhere!! If its good news, it has to be
>planted news. If its bad, it has to be correct. Hell of a note.
So, it the arrest of 100 people in Iraq good news or bad news?
That all depends, doesn't it?
>Perhaps how the war goes and what one believes that is reported
>depends on one's bias. Reporters are maybe just pawns and mindlessly
>report anything and everything told them, I suppose. Most would
>likely take offense at that, but hey, you got to watch the messenger
>too. Particularly with the vast right wing conspiracy, a term made
>popular by a man of honesty and integrity and his wife who uttered it.
>And who will see it replayed many times if she ever gets the notion of
>running for President. Pay back....is a...whatever. Heh.
>
>The field reporters are not like the sharpies we have manning the
>opinion pages back home, right? (:> It's too bad. And it's too bad
>that no matter how right someone is about how wrong the war is, it
>emboldens and sustains the enemy. Cuts both ways. And somewhere
>along the way, another GI gets shot and killed because someone hung in
>there waiting for what they've been told: "the US will capitulate,
>here read this, and hang in there...until election year."
Ah, it's the old argument that by criticizing the President, you somehow
don't support the troops.
> Ask Jimmy
>Carter how long people will hole up to swing a US election.
Are you suggesting they held the hostages until after the '80 elections
in order to help elect Reagan?
>
> Freedom of speech takes priority, in a perverse sort of way, over
>soldier's lives.
Our soldiers used to fight for such things as freedom of speech. Now
they fight for whatever evil lurks in the heart of Bush.
>I felt that in a uncomfortable way when I was in the
>military in the 60's fighting the Viet Nam War in North Dakota...(:>
There were VC in North Dakota? You sure you weren't fighting unarmed
college students in Ohio?
>Propaganda (and I use the word broadly, less my gist get lost over a
>word which often doesn't represent fact or if it does, it casts it in
>a 'favorable' light) is the modern day sustenance of war. Goebbels
>and Hitler were the modern architects of the incredible effectiveness
>of propaganda. They had people surrendering or seeking peace before a
>shot had been fired. The Russian Communists used it so effectively
>that the only meaningful response from the US was to use it as a
>reference to connote Communism, which became the US propaganda machine
>bad word. The US has its propaganda efforts but of course, no one
>party really controls the totality of the government, so its a little
>more difficult. Hard to keep with all the spins.
>
>So we live in a world of information and disinformation. Take your
>pick. Let me know how you can tell the difference.
It's very difficult to do, but sometimes the BS stinks so badly that
it's hard not to notice.
>
>Best,
>GaryE
>
Drier
>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:15:50 -0700, Drier <drun...@dev.null> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Another interesting thing is a headline I saw today, which read
>>something like "Bomb kills 1 Iraqi, US troops arrest 100".
>>
>>It didn't really go into much detail about the 100 who were arrested,
>>but it makes one wonder whether we are just doing mass arrests and not
>>worrying too much about whether the suspects arrested actually have any
>>evidence against them other than being in the wrong place at the wrong
>>time.
>
>People the law forgot
>
>It is almost two years since the Guantanamo prison camp opened. Its
>purpose is to hold people seized in the 'war on terror' and defined by
>the Bush administration as enemy combatants - though many appear to
>have been bystanders to the conflict. Images of Camp Delta's
>orange-jumpsuited, manacled detainees have provoked international
>outrage. But the real horror they face isn't physical hardship, it is
>the threat of infinite confinement, without trial or access to legal
>representation. James Meek has spent the past month talking to former
>inmates and some of those involved in operating the Pentagon's
>Kafkaesque justice system. He has built an unprecedented picture of
>life on the base, which we present in this special issue
>
>The story is here:
>http://tinyurl.com/xksv
>
There was also a recent 9th Circuit Court decision regarding this.
Tom G.
> >The story is here:
> >http://tinyurl.com/xksv
> >
>
> There was also a recent 9th Circuit Court decision regarding this.
So what, the 9th Circuit is nothin' but a rogue commie
in a Judge's robe... The guy's a goddam nutcase... Looks
like Lardass Ted F. has finally found someone who's even
more stoopid than he is, in you, Dipshit...
Tom
Drier
>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:35:02 -0700, Drier <drun...@dev.null> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>So, it the arrest of 100 people in Iraq good news or bad news?
>>
>>That all depends, doesn't it?
>
>Brilliant.
Yes, now in your opinion, is it good news or is it bad news, and why?
>
>>Ah, it's the old argument that by criticizing the President, you somehow
>>don't support the troops.
>
>Lame. If you criticize the President about the war.........are you
>really this slow on the uptake?
Are you? Okay, If you criticize the President about his policy towards
Iraq (i.e. war in every sense of the word), you somehow don't support
the troops?
>
>>Our soldiers used to fight for such things as freedom of speech. Now
>>they fight for whatever evil lurks in the heart of Bush.
>
>And the vast right wing conspiracy....
To quote you, "lame".
>
>>There were VC in North Dakota? You sure you weren't fighting unarmed
>>college students in Ohio?
>
>Clever innuendo....you must post here under a different name and need
>a new name to camoflauge who you are....I don't blame you.
Not at all - I just came here yesterday.
>
>>It's very difficult to do, but sometimes the BS stinks so badly that
>>it's hard not to notice.
>
>I noticed yours....Go get Bush man. Sic him.... He must be Evil.
Actually, his policies are very bad for the US. Therefore, there is
evil in his heart.
>
>Pathologically yours,
>Garbaby
Drier
>"Dipshit Drier" wrote in message:
>> >The story is here:
>> >http://tinyurl.com/xksv
>> >
>>
>> There was also a recent 9th Circuit Court decision regarding this.
>
> So what, the 9th Circuit is nothin' but a rogue commie
>in a Judge's robe... The guy's a goddam nutcase...
You do realize that the 9th Circuit is made up of more than just one
guy, don't you?
Do you really consider a ruling which affirms that "the U.S. acquires
full dominion and control over Guantanamo" is the work of a "rogue
commie"?
Would a "rogue commie" actually recognize the separation of powers which
is the keystone of our system of government?
Read the court's decision before you exemplify your ignorance:
Your brain is apparently a good example of "death by alcohol".
F.H.
>
> "F.H." wrote:
>
> >The much heralded export of NeoCon democracy.
> >
> >Gramps
>
> planted news. If its bad, it has to be correct. Hell of a note.
snip for space//////
> Freedom of speech takes priority, in a perverse sort of way, over
> soldier's lives. I felt that in a uncomfortable way when I was in the
> military in the 60's fighting the Viet Nam War in North Dakota...(:>
> Propaganda (and I use the word broadly, less my gist get lost over a
> word which often doesn't represent fact or if it does, it casts it in
> a 'favorable' light) is the modern day sustenance of war. Goebbels
> and Hitler were the modern architects of the incredible effectiveness
> of propaganda. They had people surrendering or seeking peace before a
> shot had been fired. The Russian Communists used it so effectively
> that the only meaningful response from the US was to use it as a
> reference to connote Communism, which became the US propaganda machine
> bad word. The US has its propaganda efforts but of course, no one
> party really controls the totality of the government, so its a little
> more difficult. Hard to keep with all the spins.
>
> So we live in a world of information and disinformation. Take your
> pick. Let me know how you can tell the difference.
LOL, if I tell you how, you would likely consider it useless
information, right? I have often laid claim to the title of "keeper of
useless information." Myth still fascinates me but this other
"information" you refer to, the recent stuff, is losing steam. Began
with disturbing and stimulating, (even before 911) moved to irritating
and insulting and finally, recently, to uninteresting and numbing. Blasé
mostly.
Getting "stimulated and disturbed" by wars and such tends to lead to a
better understanding of geography and history, I've noticed. Now what?
Where an ideologue who is hooked on competition and conflict of one kind
or another can get fresh fuel for his obsessions and convictions via
history and geography studies, someone like me is more inclined to get a
little depressed, resigned to the redundancy of it all. History is
unkind to me. I look at Bush and see Caligula. Getting resigned about
history is okay, I guess. Screw it. Go for the bliss. Disregarding the
pit in your stomach, the empathy for the dead and dying, women and
children getting blown up, current history, is another matter. A little
short on the Ollie North gene? No urge to cheer? Hang in there.
Perhaps the serenity prayer. Hope springs. Remember, we are right, that
should help.
But your point is well taken. No matter how much one might think they
*know*, someone *knows* more. And can say it better. Expressing your
opinion on a public forum is not for the faint of heart is it? Bitch
slaps and one-ups can come from unexpected quarters. Catch you by
surprise. Sooner or later the question is whether or not voicing your
opinion is worth the hassle. I have a sign on my bulletin board that
say's "Datum: No One Cares." I think I should move it closer to my
monitor.
War has always been with us and we haven't changed much, have we?
Greedy, vain, territorial. We can justify or rationalize anything. From
drug dealing gang bangers to world leaders. Take out the competition
before they take you out. Shock and awe. God's on our side. Look how
many references to this mind set in your own post.
Peruse the leaders that have come and gone. Their ideas, their
grandiose plans. Promising peace. One after another. Got "Peace
dividends?" Never mind. The never canceled soap opera. Cheering
crowds. Leering crowds. Different than in my fathers time though. Now
the talking heads are in my face, in my front room. Baiting. Stirring.
Blathering simultaneously, talking over each other. You click the remote
but............
Seems organized conflict and it's cheerleaders are here to stay. Only
the names and real estate changes. Sooner or later someone will be
declared the global master. Then what? Will they turn upon themselves,
their fellows? I think so. Another war. War against the unfit,
ungodly or unproductive among us? Forget drug rehab. Culture imitating
technology? More history. Inevitable? See,....I project. I see irony
in it's infancy, hence my comment.
Had your picture taken lately? Perhaps at a traffic signal. After all
the inmates DNA is categorized, how long will it be before some
politician (in response to some crisis of course) will propose that
*everyone* submit a sample? In the interests of lasting peace, of
course.
Mother Nature is destined to play a bigger role before long, I think.
Got oil? Whoops! That ought to tighten the rules, speed up the reality
games about a half century from now.
Fate has ushered me through the cracks between wars. Born at the right
time. I should be grateful, be quiet, right? I think so. Progress
before.................
Frank
Ted F.
wrote:
Its just that I think that foreign lives are just as much a loss to
their loved ones, as allied ones.
Americans only seem to count their own dead. I havent seen anyone
sitting down doing numbers for Iraqi military and civilian dead, but I
wouldnt mind betting that the Iraqi civilian dead, far outweigh the
number of people killed on Sept 11 in the US.
Ted F.
>
>
>
Ted F.
>"Dipshit Drier" wrote in message:
>> >The story is here:
>> >http://tinyurl.com/xksv
>> >
>>
>> There was also a recent 9th Circuit Court decision regarding this.
>
> So what, the 9th Circuit is nothin' but a rogue commie
>in a Judge's robe... The guy's a goddam nutcase... Looks
>like Lardass Ted F. has finally found someone who's even
>more stoopid than he is, in you, Dipshit...
Lardass, that sounds like an improvement on Buffalo Butt :-)
Oh to be just a plain ordinary Dipshit.
Ted F.
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>Americans only seem to count their own dead. I havent seen anyone
>sitting down doing numbers for Iraqi military and civilian dead, but I
>wouldnt mind betting that the Iraqi civilian dead, far outweigh the
>number of people killed on Sept 11 in the US.
>
>Ted F.
Garys original point was to compare the relative upset caused by US
alcohol related traffic deaths to the US casualties, but the Iraqi
civilian death count is currently estimated to be between 8 and 10
thousand. The casualty rate is currently estimated to be in the range
of 20K.
As far as military deaths, it's hard to say because the Iraqi military
has ceased to exist and certainly isn't issuing reports.
Aussies and Finns seem to have an axe to grind
Kai
>
> Aussies and Finns seem to have an axe to grind
>
Sure. Just like if you say a negative thing about Sharon's policy,
you're automatically an anti-semite.
Robert McGregor
"John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)"
news:vfg5vvgerkboa4vnl...@4ax.com...
Excuses, excuses, excuses!
http://www.usaxemen.com/usaa/australia/team03.shtml
Bob;-)
Chronocidal Charlie
and his daddy before) wrote:
> Aussies and Finns seem to have an axe to grind
Ah hell Elmer, Maybe that should be:
Our Aussie and Our Finn ;-)
Seems most of the others I run into outside of Our little hive who have
never suffered the affects of alcohol induced insanity, or for that matter
those who have, but have taken the necesary steps to be restored to sanity
don't seem to be all that concerned with axe grinding or fault finding.
;-)
Perhaps Our Aussie and Our Finn just need a big group hug to restore their
sense of self worth on Planet Earth.
"Let a man then know his worth, and keep things under his feet. Let him
not peep or steal, or skulk up and down with the air of a charity-boy, a
bastard, or an interloper in the world which exists for him. But the man
in the street, finding no worth in himself which corresponds to the force
which built a tower or sculptured a marble god, feels poor when he looks
on these. To him a palace, a statue, or a costly book have an alien and
forbidding air, much like gay equipage and seem to say like that, "Who are
you, Sir?" Yet they all are his, suitors for his notice, petitioners to
his facilities that they will come out and take possession. The picture
waits for my verdict; it is not to command me, but I am to settle its
claims to praise. That popular fable of the sot who was picked up
dead-drunk in the street, carried to the duke's house, washed and dressed
and laid in the duke's bed, and on his waking, treated with all obsequious
ceremony like the duke, and assured that he had been insane, owes its
popularity to the fact that it symbolizes so well the state of man, who is
in the world a sort of sot, but now and then wakes up, exercises his
reason and finds himself a true prince."
--Waldo, Essay, Self Reliance.
Perhaps a good group slurpy kiss in addition to that hug might help. It
usually works on my Frog friends when the get to feeling slighted. ;-)
<alt-ctl-f9 to bring up ablative tile shield inside monitor for reentry>
CC
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>Sure. Just like if you say a negative thing about Sharon's policy,
>you're automatically an anti-semite.
Nope- just painting you with the same brush you like to use on others.
http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20030520IE16
Anti-Americanism existed before Iraq war
Texas historian lectures in Finland
By Laura Pekonen
Loud, ignorant, arrogant, uncivilized, war-mongering, fundamentalist.
This is the image that many Finns have of a typical American. A recent
opinion poll suggests that attitudes toward the United States have
become considerably more negative during the war in Iraq.
It could be useful sometimes to hear what kinds of characteristics
Americans link with Europeans.
"Cynicism, corruption, passiveness, pessimism", says Richard
Pells, a professor of history at the University of Texas. Pells has
written a book on anti-American feeling in Europe called Not Like Us.
On Thursday he gave a lecture at the University of Helsinki.
According to Pells, Americans often see Europeans as being just as
hypocritical as Europeans think Americans are.
"Many Americans feel that (in the Iraq crisis) the Europeans only
wanted to save their own skins. They opposed the war so that the
terrorists would not attack Europe", Pells says.
"Americans see Europeans as lacking courage. They are ready to
negotiate even with terrorists and totalitarian rulers."
Although the war against terrorism served to amplify the
prejudices, there is a long tradition of anti-Americanism in Europe.
In Finland, distaste for US foreign policy has been fed by criticism
of American capitalism, religious fervour, inequality, and popular
culture.
"The image that Europeans have of Americans seems to be based
largely on movies and television", Pells says.
In Pells' view Europeans are in the habit of dividing Americans into
two camps - the "typical Americans" and "Americans who are almost
European". From the very beginning President George W. Bush was seen
as a typical American. "Almost European" Americans include John F.
Kennedy, for his free-spirited image, as well as Richard Nixon and
Henry Kissinger, for their political realism.
Pells sees that the current dispute is partially the result of the
fact that Europe lost its great power position to the United States in
the 20th century. After the end of the Cold War, Europeans were in the
habit of accusing conservative Americans of preferring isolation
behind the Atlantic to taking on the responsibilities of a superpower.
Just two years ago Europeans were criticising Bush for not being
sufficiently interested in foreign policy.
Now Bush is interested, but in the wrong way, from the Europeans'
point of view.
"The roles have switched. Bush's unilateral foreign policy can be
seen as an indication of a new international attitude in the United
States. For instance, the US is committed to changing the whole
situation in the Middle East", Pells says. "Europeans, on the other
hand, seem to be concentrating on dealing with issues affecting their
own continent."
As the United States is the only superpower, Pells believes that
Europeans will always accuse the Americans of being either too eager,
or too reluctant, to become involved in the affairs of the rest of the
world. This could partially depend on whether or not Europeans see the
president in office as a typical American, or as being almost
European.
"It is possible that the United States may have invaded Iraq even
if Al Gore had been elected President", Pells ponders. "Gore was one
of the hawks in the administration of Bill Clinton, and he was more
ready to use military force than Clinton was."
Europeans might ask themselves if they would have opposed the war
as intensely as they did if Iraq had been attacked by a President who
would have done what Bush did, but who would at the same time have
been more skilful in his treatment of the Europeans.
http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20030520IE17
The war in Iraq reminded many Finns of the anti-Vietnam War
demonstrations of the 1960s. However, Europeans have seen Americans as
arrogant and greedy since the 19th century.
"It is unbelievable, how naively convinced the Americans are that
they can beat any enemy", wrote Norwegian writer Knut Hamsun of the
United States in the 1880s.
Philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre described the United States as a "rabid
dog" in the 1950s, and in 1965 Charles de Gaulle declared that the
United States was the "greatest threat to world peace".
Professor Richard Pells notes that while opposing the
"Americanisation" of the world, Europeans often forget that European
immigrants moulded the United States into what it is today.
Helsingin Sanomat / First published in print 16.5.2003
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
Perhaps we think that you should have gone the UN way before attacking
Iraq illegaly. The UN weapons inspectors were doing a good job.
History is proving them right. In the very short time they were
allowed in there to do their jobs, they didnt find WMD. In the past 9
months since the US kicked them out and took over the search, with
thousands of men, they still havent found the elusive WMD and have
certainly found nothing that would have threatened the US, the UK or
Australia. Getting involved was a political decision in Oz, it wasnt a
popular one. I dont like this fuckyou/bigstick approach and enforcing
your (US) kind of democracy on the rest of the world. I am not alone
in these thoughts.
We have a Prime Minister that lies to us as well, just as your
President lied to your people and the rest of the world.
We have elections this year too. Our bloke could well get a touch-up
at the ballot box. Can you say the same?
If there was another major terrorist attack on the US on home soil
before your elections, would it be to Bush's advantage or
disadvantage?
Ted F.
F.H.
>
> John Lee Pettimore wrote:
> > Aussies and Finns seem to have an axe to grind
> Ah hell Elmer, Maybe that should be:
> Our Aussie and Our Finn ;-)
> Seems most of the others I run into outside of Our little hive who have
> never suffered the affects of alcohol induced insanity, or for that matter
> those who have, but have taken the necesary steps to be restored to sanity
> don't seem to be all that concerned with axe grinding or fault finding.
> Perhaps Our Aussie and Our Finn just need a big group hug to restore their
> sense of self worth on Planet Earth.
> "Let a man then know his worth, and keep things under his feet. Let him
> not peep or steal, or skulk up and down with the air of a charity-boy, a
> bastard, or an interloper in the world which exists for him. But the man
> in the street, finding no worth in himself which corresponds to the force
> which built a tower or sculptured a marble god, feels poor when he looks
> on these. To him a palace, a statue, or a costly book have an alien and
> forbidding air, much like gay equipage and seem to say like that, "Who are
> you, Sir?" Yet they all are his, suitors for his notice, petitioners to
> his facilities that they will come out and take possession. The picture
> waits for my verdict; it is not to command me, but I am to settle its
> claims to praise. That popular fable of the sot who was picked up
> dead-drunk in the street, carried to the duke's house, washed and dressed
> and laid in the duke's bed, and on his waking, treated with all obsequious
> ceremony like the duke, and assured that he had been insane, owes its
> popularity to the fact that it symbolizes so well the state of man, who is
> in the world a sort of sot, but now and then wakes up, exercises his
> reason and finds himself a true prince."
> --Waldo, Essay, Self Reliance.
Thanks Charlie
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:15:04 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Sure. Just like if you say a negative thing about Sharon's policy,
>>you're automatically an anti-semite.
>
>Nope- just painting you with the same brush you like to use on others.
>
>http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20030520IE16
>
>Anti-Americanism existed before Iraq war
>
> Texas historian lectures in Finland
>
>
> By Laura Pekonen
>
>Loud, ignorant, arrogant, uncivilized, war-mongering, fundamentalist.
>This is the image that many Finns have of a typical American.
Its not just Finns that think like this.
Is America "flavour of the month" anywhere?
>Philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre described the United States as a "rabid
>dog" in the 1950s, and in 1965 Charles de Gaulle declared that the
>United States was the "greatest threat to world peace".
Obviously, Charles de Gaulle was spot-on.
Havent you seen the poll taken on this subject.
Which country poses the greatest danger to world peace in 2003?
US - 86.9%
North Korea - 6.7%
Iraq - 6.3%
http://www.time.com/time/europe/gdml/peace2003.html
Ted F.
Kai
> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:01:10 -0600, John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
> and his daddy before) wrote:
>
>
>>Aussies and Finns seem to have an axe to grind
>
>
> Ah hell Elmer, Maybe that should be:
>
> Our Aussie and Our Finn ;-)
>
> Seems most of the others I run into outside of Our little hive who have
> never suffered the affects of alcohol induced insanity, or for that matter
> those who have, but have taken the necesary steps to be restored to sanity
> don't seem to be all that concerned with axe grinding or fault finding.
> ;-)
Yeah, the two people on earth critical of the US foreign policy
miraculously wandered into ARAA. Amazing, isn't it!
>
> Perhaps Our Aussie and Our Finn just need a big group hug to restore their
> sense of self worth on Planet Earth.
Sure, Charlie. It is naturally clear to everyone the only possible
reason for anyone to criticize the actions of the US must stem from
the psychological problems of these sorry individuals. Thank you for
your kind and wise words.
--
Kai
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."
- President Merkin Muffley -
Kai
> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:15:04 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Sure. Just like if you say a negative thing about Sharon's policy,
>>you're automatically an anti-semite.
>
>
> Nope- just painting you with the same brush you like to use on others.
>
> http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20030520IE16
>
>
>
> Anti-Americanism existed before Iraq war
>
> Texas historian lectures in Finland
Wow! That changes everything, I apologize for my bad deeds.
Had I but known that there is a Texan who thinks Europeans are
anti-American, I'd have never, ever, so much as thought a negative
idea about the US.
P.S I subscribe to the Helsingin Sanomat, the paper edition.
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>Perhaps we think that you should have gone the UN way before attacking
>Iraq illegaly.
Not being a lawyer- I'll refrain from commenting on the dynamic
between international law and national soverinty other than to observe
that International Law doens't have the same ability to compel
compliance as most national laws do. So making something
internationally illegal (if that even can be said to happen), doesn't
signify that it will change.
But the next time the President calls me to ask my opinion I'll be
sure to let him know that you & I don't approve. Since I only get to
register my opinion once every 2 years- I'm not waiting on the phone
to ring.
America- is very much a 50-50 nation right now- elections are a very
close run thing- but since we don't have a parlementary system, the
winner takes all and everybody gets to live with it for a few years.
Republcans howled all thru the Clinton administration, Democrats get
to do the same thing now.
What isn't helpful is shitheaded remarks about "Americans" as if we
were all made of one cloth, this is more true of Aussies and Finns
than it is of Americans. After all aren't Aussies the decendants of 2
primary backgrounds? Either the decendants of 1. English and Irish
convicts/ or civil servants assigned to admnister the penal colony or
2. the descendants of abo's that got run off their land.?
Now with just those two pieces of information- I could make all sorts
of snide remarks about Aussie IQ being low because of descent from a)
criminals who were too stupid to avoid capture or b) the irony of your
moral outrage given the ongoing issues you're own country has with
reparations, imigration and the like. But instead I think that I'll
assume that you're someone with some passion about world events and
ask that you refrain from speaking about my countrymen in such a
disrepectful, and incorrect manner- then we can call it a
conversation. But until you can do that, you're just talking to the
wall.
The same holds true of Finnland, a small country with a highly
homogenous population, throwing off the emotional effects of years of
having to kowtow to the Soviets- very proud of itself now trying to
create a larger place for itself in the world. But one where
alcoholism & a propensity to suicide and smugness could be said to be
the root national character.
The bottom bottom bottom line is this- nobody in this group gets to
call the shots on govt policy foreign or otherwise, lot's of people it
the US don't agree with the war either but we need to focus on what
we're doing next rather than what we should have done but can't undo.
we're all living in a complex world and we will get along better if we
can refrain from pattently ignorant statements.
Kai
>
> The same holds true of Finnland, a small country with a highly
> homogenous population, throwing off the emotional effects of years of
> having to kowtow to the Soviets- very proud of itself now trying to
> create a larger place for itself in the world. But one where
> alcoholism & a propensity to suicide and smugness could be said to be
> the root national character.
Yup. Alcoholism and propensity to suicide, let alone <shudder>
smugness, indeed kill thousands of innocent people in third world
countries and effectively prevent the regulation of atmosphere change,
for example. These are indeed our faults, although it may well be said
that you cannot really blame the living about their propensity to
suicide, but smug, that we are. It's a good thing there are humble
Americans like you who can show us our errand ways so we have a chance
to learn. Just like you so humbly and un-smugly described the Finnish
population in just a few sentences.
BTW, can you come up with a 'shitheaded remark' about Americans I've
made in ARAA, other than the Al Bundy one that was so clearly
tongue-in-cheek even you couldn't take it seriously?
>
> The bottom bottom bottom line is this- nobody in this group gets to
> call the shots on govt policy foreign or otherwise, lot's of people it
> the US don't agree with the war either but we need to focus on what
> we're doing next rather than what we should have done but can't undo.
> we're all living in a complex world and we will get along better if we
> can refrain from pattently ignorant statements.
The bottom line of course actually is that even though dozens of
Americans continuosly write posts about US policy in ARAA, only the
Americans are allowed to take part in the discussion. The 'foreigners'
are supposed to just hum along and nod approvingly, they're expected
to succumb to the New American Century. Meanwhile, people like Elmer
or Tom G. are naturally allowed to make any kind of remarks about any
'foreign' countries. They are, after all, just foreign countries.
rosie
> The bottom line of course actually is that even though dozens of
> Americans continuosly write posts about US policy in ARAA, only
the
> Americans are allowed to take part in the discussion. The
'foreigners'
> are supposed to just hum along and nod approvingly, they're
expected
> to succumb to the New American Century. Meanwhile, people like
Elmer
> or Tom G. are naturally allowed to make any kind of remarks about
any
> 'foreign' countries. They are, after all, just foreign countries.
>
> --
> Kai
what's your problem kai?
don't you understand that the WWW belongs to the USA, and we just
let you "foreigners" use it?
;)
David M
> The bottom line of course actually is that even though
> dozens of Americans continuously write posts about US
> policy in ARAA, only the Americans are allowed to take
> part in the discussion. The 'foreigners' are supposed to
> just hum along and nod approvingly, they're expected to
> succumb to the New American Century. Meanwhile,
> people like Elmer or Tom G. are naturally allowed to make
> any kind of remarks about any 'foreign' countries. They
> are, after all, just foreign countries.
So many (though not most) Americans are arrogant, pompous
assholes. Can you say that is untrue of Finns or Australians or
any other nationality?
I know our assholiness can be particularly worrisome to
furriners because we are now the most powerful country on earth.
In the long course of human history no nation has held that
distinction without pissing off nearly everyone around. But
when it comes our time to be summed up by another Gibbon I hope
he finds our record not as bad as most.
WayneandMaureen
>
> John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before) wrote:
> > The bottom bottom bottom line is this- nobody in this group gets to
> > call the shots on govt policy foreign or otherwise,
snip>
> "Kai" <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote in message
news:bsuu2i$g3u$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
>snip>
> The bottom line of course actually is that even though dozens of
> Americans continuosly write posts about US policy in ARAA, only the
> Americans are allowed to take part in the discussion. The 'foreigners'
> are supposed to just hum along and nod approvingly, they're expected
> to succumb to the New American Century. Meanwhile, people like Elmer
> or Tom G. are naturally allowed to make any kind of remarks about any
> 'foreign' countries. They are, after all, just foreign countries.
Dozens of Americans write posts about US policy to araa?
Only Americans allowed to take part in the discussion?
Your bottom line is misleading........
wayne
Kai
>
> So many (though not most) Americans are arrogant, pompous
> assholes. Can you say that is untrue of Finns or Australians or
> any other nationality?
Of course not. I'm not *that* arrogant, pompous asshole.
>
> I know our assholiness can be particularly worrisome to
> furriners because we are now the most powerful country on earth.
Very true. If the US wasn't in such a major role in international
affairs, there wouldn't be much discussion, or disagreement, about the
rightfulness of it's actions. The actions of Finland are not in the
agenda because we're so insignificant in global scale. But then again,
for the very same reason our responsibility is not as grave as that
of the US either. With power comes responsibility, and criticism, like
it or not.
As for my own posts, I participate in ARAA. I post to the threads I
find I have something to say. I'm not a very original thinker and
haven't started many threads, certainly not many about bashing
Americans. Almost all posts about the US policy are started by
Americans, and sometimes I participate in them if I find I want to say
something. Should I refrain from that to show I'm not anti-American?
> In the long course of human history no nation has held that
> distinction without pissing off nearly everyone around. But
> when it comes our time to be summed up by another Gibbon I hope
> he finds our record not as bad as most.
So far, you've done a decent job, but it's of course a tad hard to
compare.
I don't quite agree the criticism rises from the fact that you are a
world power alone, though. I think there are some real reasons for it
as well.
Tommy
"Ted F."
> We have elections this year too. Our bloke could well get a touch-up
> at the ballot box. Can you say the same?
>
> If there was another major terrorist attack on the US on home soil
> before your elections, would it be to Bush's advantage or
> disadvantage?
>
> Ted F.
We all have politicians that lie Ted. But they all don't contol the masses
like the yanks who gave their powers to their bosses. Look, yer flogging a
dead horse, and I'll tell you why. No yank is going to stand up here or
anywhere else and admit that they've lost control of their elected
candidates. "", so the rest of you f*ck off, you don't have an opinion.
I be putting on a bet that before the election there will be a terrorist
incident, stage managed by guess who . Sure fire bet.
Who's gonna prove me wrong
Cheers
Tommy
Tommy
Red herring David as usual.
There's no 'cause' for your assholiness.
It doesn't appear to worry other nationalities as much as it appears to
worry Merikans.
Again with the insults though, even though you don't mean them.
You aren't the most powerful nation on earth by any stretch of the
imagination, most gullible, most loud, most heard from, most opinionated,
least righteous, least morally responsible too. Yep you earn your bad
press.
I told many of you before, that around usenet YOU are the foreigners, I'm
sitting in my own home, in my own country, which I can trace back well over
800 years. No mongrels, no criminals, the land of saints and scholars :-)
What will it take to ask you all to join the reality of the planet earth. A
bit of sabre rattling from the old dogs, yeahh that impresses the shite out
of me, throw in the usual condescention that I so dislike and holy gawd you
have usenet.
have you seen that English gent who got Knighted for discovering the WWW.
Now suck peacefully on yer gripes you foreigners, your land was discovered
by Europeans, named after 'Amerrigo' - ohh shite he was European also,
you're never going to be able to swallow that until you nuke Europe, are
you.
And if AUstralia keeps importing their stuff to the land of the Amerrigos,
they're next on the hit-list, purely to maintain your economy and jobs, no?
Relax Amerrigos, soon you'll be speaking real Mexican Bawahaaa
Chees
Tommy
Drier
>On 31 Dec 2003 07:01:10 -0600, "John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
Yeah, but it took us that long just to find Saddam. ;)
Well, I've heard reports that others actually found them, but not on Fox
News (so it couldn't have happened) ;)
(check batteries in sarcasm detector before responding)
Drier
>
>"Ted F."
>
>> We have elections this year too. Our bloke could well get a touch-up
>> at the ballot box. Can you say the same?
>>
>> If there was another major terrorist attack on the US on home soil
>> before your elections, would it be to Bush's advantage or
>> disadvantage?
>>
>> Ted F.
>
>We all have politicians that lie Ted. But they all don't contol the masses
>like the yanks who gave their powers to their bosses. Look, yer flogging a
>dead horse, and I'll tell you why. No yank is going to stand up here or
>anywhere else and admit that they've lost control of their elected
>candidates. "", so the rest of you f*ck off, you don't have an opinion.
>
I suspect you're defining "yank" as any American. Americans don't
define "yank" that way.
Bush is out of control.
David M
> I don't quite agree the criticism rises from the fact that
> you are a world power alone, though. I think there are
> some real reasons for it as well.
No argument from me about that, Kai.
rosie
> Well, I've heard reports that others actually found them, but not
on Fox
> News (so it couldn't have happened) ;)
>
ROTFLMAO!
F.H.
> I suspect you're defining "yank" as any American. Americans don't
> define "yank" that way.
>
> Bush is out of control.
I guess this rules out you being David Drier. <g>
Gramps
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>Wow! That changes everything, I apologize for my bad deeds.
I accept your appology- now go play like a good boy and try not to
subscribe to such lazy thinking as you exibit here
Kai
Did you happen to notice what the articles you posted links to said
about the way Americans see Europeans? I thought so.
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before) wrote:
>
>>
>> The same holds true of Finnland, a small country with a highly
>> homogenous population, throwing off the emotional effects of years of
>> having to kowtow to the Soviets- very proud of itself now trying to
>> create a larger place for itself in the world. But one where
>> alcoholism & a propensity to suicide and smugness could be said to be
>> the root national character.
>
>Yup. Alcoholism and propensity to suicide, let alone <shudder>
>smugness, indeed kill thousands of innocent people in third world
>countries and effectively prevent the regulation of atmosphere change,
>for example. These are indeed our faults, although it may well be said
>that you cannot really blame the living about their propensity to
>suicide, but smug, that we are. It's a good thing there are humble
>Americans like you who can show us our errand ways so we have a chance
>to learn. Just like you so humbly and un-smugly described the Finnish
>population in just a few sentences.
First of all I think you mean "errant ways"- or ways in which you've
erred. "Errand ways" would refer to routes you took while performing
an errand.
Secondly you are indulging in creative editing- I posted the above
saying that it's easy to engage in gross generalizations and then gave
examples for both Oz and Finland- perhaps you shouldn't be so literal
minded.
Frankly if I have a streotype about Finland it would be based on a
friend of mine from Helsinki named Markku- he and I used to powerlift
together- he was an enormous and enormously strong man. A couple of
times after training, he'd take me down to his favorite
all-you-can-eat Chinese smorgy. The last time the owner came out and
refused to let him in- because he ate so much that he ruined his
profit margin... We had a pretty good laugh about that.
So I guess all Finns can bench over 400lbs and eat like a small
regiment.
>BTW, can you come up with a 'shitheaded remark' about Americans I've
>made in ARAA, other than the Al Bundy one that was so clearly
>tongue-in-cheek even you couldn't take it seriously?
Sure. How bout the ones about gun control- you know the ones where
'the more they kill each other the better"- you posted that a couple
of times. Then there's only an American could be stupid enough to
consider you (you of all people) to be anti-American... all sarcasm,
you really don't mean it???? You mean you really like us??? Damn- I'm
so happy... now I can... now I can.... eating herring and use my Nokia
in clear conscience.
>The bottom line of course actually is that even though dozens of
>Americans continuosly write posts about US policy in ARAA, only the
>Americans are allowed to take part in the discussion. The 'foreigners'
>are supposed to just hum along and nod approvingly, they're expected
>to succumb to the New American Century. Meanwhile, people like Elmer
>or Tom G. are naturally allowed to make any kind of remarks about any
>'foreign' countries. They are, after all, just foreign countries.
Actually, like I've said at least three times here- I was yanking your
chain, putting you on, baiting you- get it now? My own reluctance to
listen to ferners I admitted was irrational and my problem. I was a
dick for doing that and I'm sorry. For the record: as far as I'm
concerned you can say any damn thing you like, including that
Americans are a plague on the earth, however this being usenet, you
shouldn't expect others to catch your tongue in cheek. However I
agree with Charlie- call me whatever you will, but call me it by my
name, not as part what you think I think
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
<tormyle...@indigo.ie> wrote:
>You aren't the most powerful nation on earth by any stretch of the
>imagination,
So who is Tommy?
>I told many of you before, that around usenet YOU are the foreigners, I'm
>sitting in my own home, in my own country, which I can trace back well over
>800 years. No mongrels, no criminals, the land of saints and scholars :-)
No mongrels- care to give the etemology of the Irish names ending in
...gall? Finngal, Dougal etc?
Where'd that term "Black Irish" come from again?
David M
> Tommy wrote:
>> You aren't the most powerful nation on earth by any
>> stretch of the imagination,
> So who is Tommy?
Tommy is too modest to say. But I'll give you a hint: No one
can stretch imagination further than he. ;-)
Kai
> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:40:00 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The same holds true of Finnland, a small country with a highly
>>>homogenous population, throwing off the emotional effects of years of
>>>having to kowtow to the Soviets- very proud of itself now trying to
>>>create a larger place for itself in the world. But one where
>>>alcoholism & a propensity to suicide and smugness could be said to be
>>>the root national character.
>>
>>Yup. Alcoholism and propensity to suicide, let alone <shudder>
>>smugness, indeed kill thousands of innocent people in third world
>>countries and effectively prevent the regulation of atmosphere change,
>>for example. These are indeed our faults, although it may well be said
>>that you cannot really blame the living about their propensity to
>>suicide, but smug, that we are. It's a good thing there are humble
>>Americans like you who can show us our errand ways so we have a chance
>>to learn. Just like you so humbly and un-smugly described the Finnish
>>population in just a few sentences.
>
>
> First of all I think you mean "errant ways"- or ways in which you've
> erred. "Errand ways" would refer to routes you took while performing
> an errand.
Thank you for the spelling correction. Nothing quite like it.
<snip>
>
>
>>BTW, can you come up with a 'shitheaded remark' about Americans I've
>>made in ARAA, other than the Al Bundy one that was so clearly
>>tongue-in-cheek even you couldn't take it seriously?
>
>
> Sure. How bout the ones about gun control- you know the ones where
> 'the more they kill each other the better"- you posted that a couple
> of times.
Yeah, I thought that was so subtle you wouldn't get it. But it was
tongue-in-cheek.
> Then there's only an American could be stupid enough to
> consider you (you of all people) to be anti-American...
That was extremely subtle. Kind of like shooting myself in the foot
with a shotgun.
> all sarcasm,
> you really don't mean it???? You mean you really like us???
Some people I like, and some people I don't like. More importantly,
some people's some ideas I like, and some people's some ideas I do not
like. The nationalities of these people play very small part in the
process of opinion forming. But it appears some Americans here have a
tendency to identify themselves as the representatives of anything
American. You, for example, seem to take criticism of your government,
or president, by a foreigner, as a personal insult and attack against
your own respective person, even though nothing in the criticism,
other than the nationality, points at you.
> Damn- I'm
> so happy... now I can... now I can.... eating herring and use my Nokia
> in clear conscience.
So the above herring talk is not shitheaded?
>
>
>>The bottom line of course actually is that even though dozens of
>>Americans continuosly write posts about US policy in ARAA, only the
>>Americans are allowed to take part in the discussion. The 'foreigners'
>>are supposed to just hum along and nod approvingly, they're expected
>>to succumb to the New American Century. Meanwhile, people like Elmer
>>or Tom G. are naturally allowed to make any kind of remarks about any
>>'foreign' countries. They are, after all, just foreign countries.
>
>
> Actually, like I've said at least three times here- I was yanking your
> chain, putting you on, baiting you- get it now? My own reluctance to
> listen to ferners I admitted was irrational and my problem. I was a
> dick for doing that and I'm sorry. For the record: as far as I'm
> concerned you can say any damn thing you like, including that
> Americans are a plague on the earth, however this being usenet, you
> shouldn't expect others to catch your tongue in cheek.
How about if you tried to think that criticism of the actions of your
government is not criticism of you as a person, as a people or as a
nation and vice versa. It is criticism of your government's actions.
Period. Furthermore, the criticism does not rise from the fact that it
is *American* government, but from the actions it does. This is
naturally affected by the fact that the US is so powerful, which makes
it's actions more important than those of Vanuatu or Finland.
> However I
> agree with Charlie- call me whatever you will, but call me it by my
> name, not as part what you think I think
I've called you many things in several posts, but you keep on
insisting I do it because you're an American, which isn't true. Like
you said, this is Usenet. Don't expect to "yank peoples' chains" and
not get a response. If I get flamed, I don't automatically assume it's
because I'm a Finn, nor do I take it as an anti-Finnish sentiment.
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>
>Thank you for the spelling correction. Nothing quite like it.
I owed you one- annoying isn't it?
><snip>
>So the above herring talk is not shitheaded?
Certainly it is and intentionally so. The rule of "turnabout is fair
play" also applies. I was offerring an olive branch but couldn't
resist one last whack. All in all, I'd say that was pretty restrained
YMMV.
>How about if you tried to think that criticism of the actions of your
>government is not criticism of you as a person, as a people or as a
>nation and vice versa. It is criticism of your government's actions.
>Period. Furthermore, the criticism does not rise from the fact that it
>is *American* government, but from the actions it does.
I think you're missing what I'm trying to say- I don't particularly
take critisism of the administration to heart, thats
anti-American(policy). I think that what they want in the big picture
(aside from access to oil, Iraq is an attempt to reshape the middle
east) probably can't be done from outside or by force- but history
will judge. What *does* chap my ass and what sure as hell is
anti-American(people) is the same thing as would be considered
anti-Fininsh(people) or anti_Irish(people) and that usually starts
with "Why do Americans think..." or "why are Americans so..."
blah blah blah blah blah followed by some action of the government.
It's stupid, inflametory and incorrect and you do it. I'm asking you
as politely as I can to not do it or to expect to get into these
tiresome discussions
Tom G.
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:02 -0500, "Tom G."
> >"Dipshit Drier" wrote in message:
> >> >The story is here:
> >> >http://tinyurl.com/xksv
> >> >
> >>
> >> There was also a recent 9th Circuit Court decision regarding this.
> >
> > So what, the 9th Circuit is nothin' but a rogue commie
> >in a Judge's robe... The guy's a goddam nutcase...
>
> You do realize that the 9th Circuit is made up of more than just one
> guy, don't you?
Of course I do, the lot of 'em's goofy dipshits in Judges robes..
> Do you really consider a ruling which affirms that "the U.S. acquires
> full dominion and control over Guantanamo" is the work of a "rogue
> commie"?
Hell, yeah, wouldn't you...??
> Would a "rogue commie" actually recognize the separation of powers which
> is the keystone of our system of government?
The courts have no business issuing an opinion one way or
the other...
> Read the court's decision before you exemplify your ignorance:
>
>
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/429E2096892C3D8388256E00005F
EB65/$file/0355785final.pdf?openelement
>
> Your brain is apparently a good example of "death by alcohol".
As is your's, asshole, yer link wrapped and is totally
useless... Go sit with Ted F. and the other Lardasses and
dipshits...
Tom
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>
>The bottom bottom bottom line is this- nobody in this group gets to
>call the shots on govt policy foreign or otherwise, lot's of people it
>the US don't agree with the war either but we need to focus on what
>we're doing next rather than what we should have done but can't undo.
>we're all living in a complex world and we will get along better if we
>can refrain from pattently ignorant statements.
>
Do you mean we will all get on better, if we do it the American way?
The Iraqis are showing their thoughts on the kind of democracy that
you (US) are trying to foist on them. Give it a few more months and
the US wont be able to get out of there fast enough. Elections rule.
Ted F.
Ted F.
wrote:
I think your present government will go down in history as one of the
most inept, corrupt and incompetent in history. Time will tell.
Ted F.
>
>
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:06:19 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Thank you for the spelling correction. Nothing quite like it.
>
>I owed you one- annoying isn't it?
English isnt his first language. When you can write Finnish fluently
enough to not make any spelling or grammatical errors, you will have
more cause to correct him. Otherwise it just comes across as American
arrogance.
>I think you're missing what I'm trying to say- I don't particularly
>take critisism of the administration to heart, thats
>anti-American(policy). I think that what they want in the big picture
>(aside from access to oil, Iraq is an attempt to reshape the middle
>east) probably can't be done from outside or by force- but history
>will judge.
If you (US) want to reshape the Middle East, why didnt you start with
Israel then? Is it because they might fight back? You dont win any
bravery awards attacking a virtually unarmed country.
Ted F.
Ted F.
>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 01:14:19 +1000, Ted F. <ted.fl...@lycos.com>
>
>>
>>Perhaps we think that you should have gone the UN way before attacking
>>Iraq illegaly. The UN weapons inspectors were doing a good job.
>>History is proving them right. In the very short time they were
>>allowed in there to do their jobs, they didnt find WMD. In the past 9
>>months since the US kicked them out and took over the search, with
>>thousands of men, they still havent found the elusive WMD and have
>>certainly found nothing that would have threatened the US, the UK or
>>Australia.
>
>Yeah, but it took us that long just to find Saddam. ;)
Whats the betting that Bin Laden "turns up" just before the Americans
go to the polls? Cynical, me?
>
>Well, I've heard reports that others actually found them, but not on Fox
>News (so it couldn't have happened) ;)
>
>(check batteries in sarcasm detector before responding)
Yes, I read the same reports about the Kurds finding him, drugging him
and informing the US of his location. Shouldnt they get the reward :-)
Ted F.
Ted F.
wrote:
>Chronocidal Charlie wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:01:10 -0600, John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
>> and his daddy before) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Aussies and Finns seem to have an axe to grind
>>
>>
>> Ah hell Elmer, Maybe that should be:
>>
>> Our Aussie and Our Finn ;-)
>>
>> Seems most of the others I run into outside of Our little hive who have
>> never suffered the affects of alcohol induced insanity, or for that matter
>> those who have, but have taken the necesary steps to be restored to sanity
>> don't seem to be all that concerned with axe grinding or fault finding.
>> ;-)
>
>Yeah, the two people on earth critical of the US foreign policy
>miraculously wandered into ARAA. Amazing, isn't it!
They'd better add paranoid to the list :-)
Ted F.
>
>>
>> Perhaps Our Aussie and Our Finn just need a big group hug to restore their
>> sense of self worth on Planet Earth.
>
>Sure, Charlie. It is naturally clear to everyone the only possible
>reason for anyone to criticize the actions of the US must stem from
>the psychological problems of these sorry individuals. Thank you for
>your kind and wise words.
Ted F.
wrote:
>"Drier" wrote in message:
>
>> Read the court's decision before you exemplify your ignorance:
>>
>>
>http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/429E2096892C3D8388256E00005F
>EB65/$file/0355785final.pdf?openelement
>>
>> Your brain is apparently a good example of "death by alcohol".
>
>
> As is your's, asshole, yer link wrapped and is totally
>useless... Go sit with Ted F. and the other Lardasses and
>dipshits...
His link worked for me and loaded a 79 page PDF document.
Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/2w7cb
You might have problems though, it uses words of more than two
syllables.
Ted F.
Ted F.
wrote:
>We have tarried to long on energy from the earth to power our needs.
>We need to move on to more plentiful sources and learn how to harness
>them...and Science will do that.
I think that at one of the upcoming motor shows, they have a car that
will cover 300 kilometres on 4 litres of hydrogen. Now I know that the
weight of the batteries was the main reason why electric powered cars
were slow to take off, so what will stop Hydrogen power? Will it be
the might/blight of the oil companies? With the US's excessive use of
oil, I would have thought it was good policy to be investing a couple
of billion in research and development. Its hardly likely to happen
while the government is funded by BIG OIL.
An Australian named Ralph Sarich discovered the orbital engine about
20+ years ago, that was going to revolutionise motoring. But I think
he sold out to the Americans. Has anyone heard of it since?
Ted F.
>>
>>Fate has ushered me through the cracks between wars. Born at the right
>>time. I should be grateful, be quiet, right? I think so. Progress
>>before.................
>
>And me as well, although I came close. I'm afraid for my children and
>grandchildren. I guess that is to be expected.
>
>Best,
>GaryE
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>On 31 Dec 2003 17:33:16 -0600, "John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
>and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:06:19 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Thank you for the spelling correction. Nothing quite like it.
>>
>>I owed you one- annoying isn't it?
>
>English isnt his first language. When you can write Finnish fluently
>enough to not make any spelling or grammatical errors, you will have
>more cause to correct him. Otherwise it just comes across as American
>arrogance.
Ted-
Your insistance on ascribing my personal flaws, whatever they may be,
to "Americans" is bigotry. Plain and simple.
You're the one with the resentment here, deal with it.
Tom G.
> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:55:12 -0600, "David M"
Get a life, Buffalo Butt...
Tom G.
> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:09:38 -0500, "Tom G." > wrote:
>
> >"Drier" wrote in message:
>
> >
> >> Read the court's decision before you exemplify your ignorance:
> >>
> >>
>
>http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/429E2096892C3D8388256E00005
F
> >EB65/$file/0355785final.pdf?openelement
> >>
> >> Your brain is apparently a good example of "death by alcohol".
> >
> >
> > As is your's, asshole, yer link wrapped and is totally
> >useless... Go sit with Ted F. and the other Lardasses and
> >dipshits...
>
> His link worked for me and loaded a 79 page PDF document.
> Try this:
> http://tinyurl.com/2w7cb
>
> You might have problems though, it uses words of more than two
> syllables.
>
> Ted F.
I've got a two syllable word for you, Buffalo Butt...
Dipshit... That's you...
F.H.
> An Australian named Ralph Sarich discovered the orbital engine about
> 20+ years ago, that was going to revolutionise motoring. But I think
> he sold out to the Americans. Has anyone heard of it since?
Not bad for the descendants of criminals and outcasts. :))
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>Do you mean we will all get on better, if we do it the American way?
No I mean don't mean that, if I *had* meant that I would have *said*
that.
What I mean is that your anger at anything or anyone American makes
you seem like an ignorant, bigoted sheepfucker. Now you may or may
not indeed fuck sheep, kangaroos or other marsupials, but that
doesn't reflect on the fine upstanding Aussies that, I'm sure, never
glance the way of a wombat with anything other than the most pure
virtue. Kindly remember the same applys to yanks
> Give it a few more months and the US wont be able to get out of there
> fast enough. Elections rule.
Personally, I think we'll be there for years, Bush will likely win the
next election and even if didn't it's a long climb down from a war of
this type.
But suppose for a minute that we lost our nerve and just pulled out,
what would the result be? Civil war? Destabilization of the region?
A better result that the current situation? Highly unlikely.
So what are the options? We hand it over to the UN? Do they have the
troops & command structure available to go in and stabilize the
system? Keep in mind that to achieve the ratio of peacekeepers to
civilians that were effective in Kosovo Serbia would require about
300K soldiers- where are they going to come from? How are they going
to be commanded?
Would it give you more comfort if the soldiers being killed came from
a wider range of countries? Or do you expect that we can somehow
rewind the clock and make the war unoccur?
.
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>I think that at one of the upcoming motor shows, they have a car that
>will cover 300 kilometres on 4 litres of hydrogen. Now I know that the
>weight of the batteries was the main reason why electric powered cars
>were slow to take off, so what will stop Hydrogen power? Will it be
>the might/blight of the oil companies? With the US's excessive use of
>oil, I would have thought it was good policy to be investing a couple
>of billion in research and development. Its hardly likely to happen
>while the government is funded by BIG OIL.
Actually- the R&D investment by Detroit auto makers is in the billions
per year. I know this first hand, having help respond to some large
RFPs (requests for proposals) for services to support the R&D
activity.
Last I saw GM was leading the pack- the Bushies proposed some
increased funding for R&D but I never heard if it came about.
The problems with the technology seem to be
1. size of the fuel cell
2.. the amount of platinum needed for catalysts makes mass production
very expensive.
3. there is no current infrastructure for processing hydrogen
distribution/ etc. This means that the source of hydrogen for first
generations fuel cells will likely be petrolium based.
>An Australian named Ralph Sarich discovered the orbital engine about
>20+ years ago, that was going to revolutionise motoring. But I think
>he sold out to the Americans. Has anyone heard of it since?
Actually, he's still working on a 4 stroke model and listed on the
Aussie stock exchange.
http://www.orbeng.com.au/orbital/aboutOrbital/aboutOrbitalFaq.htm
David M
> Lardass Ted F. wrote in message ..
>>> So many (though not most) Americans are arrogant,
>>> pompous assholes. Can you say that is untrue of Finns
>>> or Australians or any other nationality?
>> I think your present government will go down in history as
>> one of the most inept, corrupt and incompetent in history.
>> Time will tell.
> Get a life, Buffalo Butt...
See what I mean about arrogant assholes? (I mean that in all
brotherly kindness, of course, brothers.)
Actually, Ted, though I certainly dislike and distrust George
Bush, I must point we have had a number of previous governments
even more inept, corrupt and incompetent -- and that is just in
the U.S. None of our administrations would even be in
contention in an international historical competition.
staamfa
"F.H." <
| I guess this rules out you being David Drier. <g>
|
| Gramps
Please have your owner take you in and check you out for parvo. Your
constant smelly off topic diarrhea-ing of this newsgroup is a dead
give-away.
Ted F.
wrote:
>Tom G. wrote:
I dont think people realise just what damage has been or is being
done, David. I just hope for the US's sake, that the Mad Cow disease
isnt found to be bigger than reported and that they have been carrying
out all the recognised tests and taking the neccessary safety
precautions. Figures I have read showed that this wasnt the case and
that the agricultural watchdogs might have been as lax as the airport
watchdogs. As I said, time will tell.
Ted F.
>
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 11:37:40 +1000, Ted F. <ted.fl...@lycos.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 31 Dec 2003 17:33:16 -0600, "John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
>>and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:06:19 +0200, Kai <sob...@nospamo.luukku.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for the spelling correction. Nothing quite like it.
>>>
>>>I owed you one- annoying isn't it?
>>
>>English isnt his first language. When you can write Finnish fluently
>>enough to not make any spelling or grammatical errors, you will have
>>more cause to correct him. Otherwise it just comes across as American
>>arrogance.
>
>Ted-
>
> Your insistance on ascribing my personal flaws, whatever they may be,
>to "Americans" is bigotry. Plain and simple.
> You're the one with the resentment here, deal with it.
I didnt pull a foreigner up over a spelling mistake in a language that
wasnt his own. I call that arrogance and assheadness.
Ted F.
>
>
>
Ted F.
wrote:
>> Ted F wrote in message:
>> On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:09:38 -0500, "Tom G." > wrote:
>>
>> >"Drier" wrote in message:
>>
>> >
>> >> Read the court's decision before you exemplify your ignorance:
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/429E2096892C3D8388256E00005
>F
>> >EB65/$file/0355785final.pdf?openelement
>> >>
>> >> Your brain is apparently a good example of "death by alcohol".
>> >
>> >
>> > As is your's, asshole, yer link wrapped and is totally
>> >useless... Go sit with Ted F. and the other Lardasses and
>> >dipshits...
>>
>> His link worked for me and loaded a 79 page PDF document.
>> Try this:
>> http://tinyurl.com/2w7cb
>>
>> You might have problems though, it uses words of more than two
>> syllables.
>>
>> Ted F.
>
> I've got a two syllable word for you, Buffalo Butt...
>Dipshit... That's you...
>
Buffalo has three syllables, Butt has one. Dipshit you seem to be
comfortable with - two syllables.
Ted F.
>Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
Ted F.
I didnt know that they were working on hydrogen as well, thanks for
the link, Gramps.
Feck me, the Eskimo's might beat us all to it :-)
Ted F.
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
Thanks for the link.
Ted F.
Ted H.
Ted F. <ted.fl...@lycos.com> wrote:
> On 31 Dec 2003 20:12:18 -0600, "John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy
> and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>
> >>English isnt his first language. When you can write Finnish fluently
> >>enough to not make any spelling or grammatical errors, you will have
> >>more cause to correct him. Otherwise it just comes across as American
> >>arrogance.
> >
> >to "Americans" is bigotry. Plain and simple.
>
> wasnt his own. I call that arrogance and assheadness.
Hey Ted! :)
I don't think the objection was to calling arrogance, but to associating
it with being American.
I could be wrong, though. :)
All the best to you in the new year!
--
Ted Aitch
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>I don't think the objection was to calling arrogance, but to associating
>it with being American.
There you go.
Ted F.
wrote:
>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:50:10 +1000,
Can only call it as I see it, Ted :-)
>
>I could be wrong, though. :)
>
>All the best to you in the new year!
Thanks, Ted :-)
All three of us (Teds) are here, thank God we are all different and
people cant get us mixed up :-)
A sober, peaceful and prosperous New Year to you too, Ted.
Ted F.
Tommy
"John Lee Pettimore > >You aren't the most powerful nation on earth by any
stretch of the
> >imagination,
>
> So who is Tommy?
>
> >I told many of you before, that around usenet YOU are the foreigners, I'm
> >sitting in my own home, in my own country, which I can trace back well
over
> >800 years. No mongrels, no criminals, the land of saints and scholars
:-)
>
> No mongrels- care to give the etemology of the Irish names ending in
> ...gall? Finngal, Dougal etc?
> Where'd that term "Black Irish" come from again?
You're griping for a row, ain't ya.
Gaul goes back 1200 years - It's a proven fact that we propogated as far
north as Scandinavia. Go check out your history books. The original Irish
were probably the original peoples of this planet. The Viking, Norse and
Gaulish (from German/Austrian tribes) originally started invading the outer
isles when ships first became 'popular' or shipping became a profitable
venture. They generally took young maidens and pre-teen youths, for
breeding purposes. Centuries later they were to return to invade and
occupy us, but we integrated and assimilated most invaders eventually. Of
all the nations today, only the Germans and the Swedes held onto the blonde
pigmentation of their hair. Thats not to say that others don't, but not to
the same extent. Those three 'tribes' or nations, ie., Irish, Swede and
German are genetically pure and DNA traceable for more than 800 years. Any
more than that I can't tell you. Well I could, but you'd have to be
prepared to do a bit of reading, and investigating, like I did. I had the
interest, as I toiled through Roman times also to locate the origins of my
own family name. Satisfactory or not, I eventually would you believe, found
what I wanted in english history. And that closes that book.
Look I remember this conversation before hereabouts. The English/Brits are
more probably of Irish descent than the other way round. Put any two of us
in the same room, and nobody could tell us apart, until we speak. Likewise
the Scots, Welsh or Nth Brittany "Bretons".
PS look up the 'Black Irish' in www.kartoo.com (HTML version, not flash)
and also look up the Black Blight, or the potato famine, interesting
reading, mighn't be what you want, but sure there you have it :-))
Cheers
Tommy
PS Black Irish is a reference as you well know to the "BLACK BLIGHT", ie
the potato famine. Read up on it matey. There are references in AmerKan
literature to the Black Irish being of descent from the survivors of the
Spanish Armada, which is a load of codswallop, as the first Irish black
person that was seen here were two adopted blokes, Paul McGrath, an Irish
International soccer player, and Fergus Sharkey, a Sligo born singer and
entertainer, and at that they were quarter-cast.
A great saying over here is Black hearted bastard, which is really about a
persons disposition as oposed to his skin colour.
Tommy
"David M" <> John Lee Pettimore wrote:
> > Tommy wrote:
>
> >> You aren't the most powerful nation on earth by any
> >> stretch of the imagination,
>
> > So who is Tommy?
>
> can stretch imagination further than he. ;-)
Go raibh míle maith agat, a mhic,
It's all in my genes David, I sit here imagining a world where people love
each other, help each other, are kind to each other, teach each other and
pray for each other.
And then there's usenet :-))
Níl aon tinntáin mar do thinntáin féin
Cheers
Tommy
Artfulcodger
My Grandmother taught me only one gaelic saying and it is probably
misspelled "pugh mahon".
The Codge
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>
>"John Lee Pettimore
> >You aren't the most powerful nation on earth by any
>stretch of the
>> >imagination,
>>
>> So who is Tommy?
Can't come up with an alternative selection?
>> >I told many of you before, that around usenet YOU are the foreigners, I'm
>> >sitting in my own home, in my own country, which I can trace back well
>over
>> >800 years. No mongrels, no criminals, the land of saints and scholars
>:-)
>>
>> No mongrels- care to give the etemology of the Irish names ending in
>> ...gall? Finngal, Dougal etc?
>> Where'd that term "Black Irish" come from again?
>
>You're griping for a row, ain't ya.
Not at all at all, I didn't pick up on the saints and scholars bit
because I it's fairly true. I think also think it's a pity that the
Irish form of Christianity lost out to the latin form, but I think
"mongrels" is a curious, curious choice of words. I'll buy the idea
that Ireland didn't face serious nomadic incurrsions for 800 years-
but thats a fairly arbitrary line. Add to that the need for fresh
infusions to the gene pool.
Consider:
I have an aunt and an uncle (now passed on) who have a peculiar type
of congenital blindness- basically their eyes never formed cones/rods
in the center of their vision fields- so they only have peripheral
vision. When they came to the US they spent a good deal of time and
effort to find a cure (this was back in the 50s-60s) eventually they
were both asked about if there was any significant inter-marriage
in their families- since they were the first generation of my family
that were truly literate, they didn't have access to much information-
only what they'd been told and it didn't indicate any intermarriage.
Fast forward 30 years to my mother digging thru the family history-
and sure as hell- great grandpa and grandma were first cousins which
cemented a rather nasty set of recessive genes in the family.
Now, I'm sure this was not uncommon in Connacht in the 1840's given
the bleakness of that particular stretch of history, just as it wasn't
after the great plagues of Europe- you married them that were left
alive- but I'd hardly call that "pure"- inbred would be more accurate.
>Gaul goes back 1200 years - It's a proven fact that we propogated as far
>north as Scandinavia.
I didn't say Gaul- I said -gall as in Dougall
DOUGALL
(origin: Gaelic and Celtic.) The black stranger, from Dhu, black, and
gall, a stranger, a term used by the Celts to denote a Lowlander, a
foreigner, not one of them. The Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians were
called by the Irish Fionne Gael, or fair-haired, and the Germans "Dubh
Gail," or the black strangers.
> Go check out your history books. The original Irish
>were probably the original peoples of this planet.
Actually, it's pretty well accepted that they were Africans so I'd be
currious to see where you got this from- certainly not the 4 masters?
> The Viking, Norse and
>Gaulish (from German/Austrian tribes) originally started invading the outer
>isles when ships first became 'popular' or shipping became a profitable
>venture. They generally took young maidens and pre-teen youths, for
>breeding purposes. Centuries later they were to return to invade and
>occupy us, but we integrated and assimilated most invaders eventually. Of
>all the nations today, only the Germans and the Swedes held onto the blonde
>pigmentation of their hair. Thats not to say that others don't, but not to
>the same extent. Those three 'tribes' or nations, ie., Irish, Swede and
>German are genetically pure and DNA traceable for more than 800 years.
Again, I don't get what you mean by pure. There was a study a while
back on Jews named Levy- since the Y chromosome is passed complete
from father to son- they were able to determine that all of these
Levy's were the decendants of the Levite priests- going back well over
2000 years. At the same time because of the diaspora there were Levys
of almost every concievable ethnic background (the moms contributing
the requisite diversity)
>Any
>more than that I can't tell you. Well I could, but you'd have to be
>prepared to do a bit of reading, and investigating, like I did.
Try me- I'm a very curious fellow.
>PS Black Irish is a reference as you well know to the "BLACK BLIGHT", ie
>the potato famine. Read up on it matey. There are references in AmerKan
>literature to the Black Irish being of descent from the survivors of the
>Spanish Armada, which is a load of codswallop, as the first Irish black
>person
My own surname translates to Brown Black, and comes from Cork, so I
doubt I have any Spaniard in me- but I'm much more likely to be taken
for being of Itialian heritage than as a first generation Irisher.
Many of my cousins who never stepped foot outside of Ireland are more
Mario than Mihal in terms of looks so clearly the 300 or so Armada
survivors, who were indeed beached in Donegal, would have had to
reproduced like the proverbial bunnys to have had the impact
attributed to them- but I can tell you true- theres someone a
whooollle lot darker than Sven in the woodpile- if you take my
meaning.
>that was seen here were two adopted blokes, Paul McGrath, an Irish
>International soccer player, and Fergus Sharkey, a Sligo born singer and
>entertainer, and at that they were quarter-cast.
>
>A great saying over here is Black hearted bastard, which is really about a
>persons disposition as oposed to his skin colour.
Also a buddy of mine from Wicklow was a fairly renound footballer in
the late 70's early 80s called "The Black Flash"
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
Cuir síoda ar ghabhar agus is gabhar i gcónaí é.
Jim Blair
"Tommy" wrote
It's all in my genes David, I sit here imagining a world where people love
each other, help each other, are kind to each other, teach each other and
pray for each other.
Is that the EU vision of the "new world order."
Jim
Ted F.
and his daddy before)" <bug...@off.com> wrote:
>
>I didn't say Gaul- I said -gall as in Dougall
>
>DOUGALL
>(origin: Gaelic and Celtic.) The black stranger, from Dhu, black, and
>gall, a stranger, a term used by the Celts to denote a Lowlander, a
>foreigner, not one of them.
Ahhhhhhh. So you're a load of Galls to us then :-)
Ted F.
Tommy
"John Lee Pettimore >
, "Tommy" <tormyle...@indigo.ie>
> wrote:
> >"John Lee Pettimore
Damm I snipped too much again, ah well I'm not disagreeing too much with
you, but you asked for information. Thing is a long 2 to three thousand
years ago, we didn't have history, we had myths, the Tuatha de Danann, and
the Fir Bolgs were mythical, much like the myths of leprechauns and early
christian/catholic beliefs and writings.
All in all, I tend to steer away from the very 'handy' observations of US
historians writing about European history. You put the words "Black
Irish"into a search engine, and although the pages may appear from different
authors, if you read them you'll find they're word for word identical, so
someone is lazily plagiarisng someone elses 'findings'.
As regards black as in black skin colour, I'm 57 years old, and travelled
the length and breadth of the country, not a big deal when you consider it's
280 X 78 miles, or 32,000 square miles in size, a population of 3.8 million,
and oh so parochial in nature and makeup. Let me insist to you that if a
black baby were born here, it would be front page news for about 50 years,
and this is not a joke. I could easily be accused of racism, or ignorance.
Up to about 15 years ago, if a dark skinned person appeared on the streets
of Dublin he'd be a figure of amusement and pure 'awe'. When I first
travelled to the Lebanon, I didn't know how or what to say to foreign
people, and I genuinely thought they were different. Still to this day I
have never kissed a black person, woman I mean, I don't believe I've evr had
a genealogical conversation with one, I wouldn't really know how to converse
without showing my ignorance, and thats the fault of our island-ness, not
racist overtures.
This has gone way too far into my 'weaknesses', and if someone is insulted
or offended please excuse me, it was never meant as such. The beauty of
writing is that there is a person at the other end, and we don't see faces
or colours or religions or political differences - just arseholes being
themselves :-))
The color black appears often in the descriptive language of the physical
and cultural features of Ireland. It is also used to specify certain groups
found within the broader spectrum of Hibernian society. One such employment
of the word 'black' in a racial sense is the reference to the "Black Irish"
of the British West Indies
(1), the mixed-blood offspring of 17th century Irish emigrants and African
slaves who live on the island Montserrat, known also as the "Emerald Isle of
the Caribbean."
(2) The term "Black Irish" is also currently used with a deprecatory meaning
by the Catholic Irish to describe the Protestants of Ireland who have
historically supported the British rule of Ulster. "Black" in this sense
connotes the "religious and political bigotry"
(3) felt by the Catholics towards the "Prods." The third usage of the
expression "Black Irish" is far rarer and has yet to be found per se in
print. In this sense "Black "refers to the dark (hence "Black") hair, eyes,
and skin that supposedly marks a person of Irish blood as having descended
from the conjugal relationship of a Spanish survivor of the Armada (male)
with an Irish woman.
According to rumors and legends, these Black Irish are the descendants of a
few surviving ill-fated Spanish sailors who sailed with the Felícima Armada
from Spain to invade England but were ultimately shipwrecked on the northern
and western coasts of Ireland in the autumn of 1588. A very small number of
the more than seven hundred Spanish men who made it alive to the Irish coast
survived, and a few of those who did allegedly became intimate with enough
Irish women so as to engender a new inter-racial (Hibernian-Iberian) strain
of progeny whose "dark hair and eyes and soft brown Southern skin testifies
to its remote Spanish ancestry."(4)
This story has been retold by a number of Irish and Irish-Americans of this
decade by way of explaining their own "dark hair and eyes" -- although from
personal experience these facial characteristics have never been matched by
a "brown Southern skin." No folk or scholastic literature (to the best of my
knowledge) exists to verify this Hispanic ancestry and, indeed, it is
doubted whether there is any proof at all to the claims of Spanish blood in
Irish veins. Without written historical authentication of these beliefs, the
story has been relegated to a strictly oral tradition, bar the few variants
that are cited below.
The four following variants are the sum total of referents found regarding
connubial Spanish-Irish relations in reference to the Armada's descent of
1588. It should be noted that all four come from 20th century sources.
Variant one: Anyone who goes along the coast of Ireland and along the
Devonshire (SW England) coast will in one locality after another find that
the inhabitants of this or that village are asserted to be descendants of
the men from the Armada wrecked upon their coast; that the dark complexion
of the population is owing to the fact that a number of men of the Armada
settled and married in that part of the district.
-- Major Martin Hume, The Geographical Journal, XXVII: 5 (London, may 1906)
p 448
Variant two: A few others [i.e., Spanish survivors of the shipwrecked
Armada] escaped. There were other Irish girls who pitied them and took them
home and forgot that they were enemies; so that even now on that coast a
child is occasionally born whose dark hair and eyes and soft brown Southern
skin testifies to its remote Spanish ancestry.
-- Lorna Rea, The Spanish Armada (New York 1933) p 160
Variant three: The belief that men of Spanish appearance in County Galway [W
Ireland] may be descendants of men who came ashore from the ships of the
Armada and inter-married with the Irish...
-- T.P. Kilfeather, Ireland: graveyard of the Spanish Armada (Dublin 1967) p
63
There is a common supposition that large, undefined numbers of Irishmen and
women are descended from survivors of the Armada, a theory that Mattingly
succinctly disposes of in fourteen lines. Anyone who studies the State
Papers and other contemporary accounts of events in that terrible year must
come to the same conclusion -- that it is improbable that the few "ragges of
men", as Lord Deputy Fitzwylliam described the starved, shipwrecked,
emaciated, half-dying Spaniards who were washed up and remained alive,
should beget numerous descendants. Either they died like flies on landing,
or they were exterminated at once on strands, rocks and shoals, or later in
bogs, woods and mountains in which they had taken refuge; in camps, prisons
or market squares. We have an example of the first in the young soldier, who
had fought at Terceira, who died beside the sleeping de Cuellar during the
night.
The men of rank who were saved from the sword for ransom were kept close
confined in castles in the west or north, until they could be conveyed to
those in the east for easier transport to England. The common soldiers or
sailors who survived and were sheltered by friendly chieftains got away
through Irish or Scottish aid as quickly as they could, to Scotland or the
continent, their overpowering instinct being to escape the English whom they
observed slaughtering their companions, harrying the Irish and hounding
themselves. An inconsequential number, as we shall see, remained in service
in the north with that Prince of Elizabethan Irishmen, the Great O'Neill,
but these were an exception. Any physical similarities. of the Irish to the
Spanish may therefore more reasonably be attributed to their common Iberian
blood and the intermingling of the two races throughout many centuries past,
facilitated by trade and commerce.
The commercial links between Ireland and Spain, fostered by the prevailing
south-westerly winds, appear to go back to Mesolithic times. Here
archaeology confirms ethnology.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Eloy J. Gallegos, _the Melungeons: the pioneers of the interior Southeastern
United States 1526-1997_, Villagra Press: Knoxville 1997
Part III: the Heritage -- Origins of the Iberians
The origins of the peoples of the Iberian Peninsula (Spanish/Portuguese) are
many and varied. For this reason when one is asked what does a Melungeon
look like, the answer can be as varied as the origins of the Iberains
themselves. A family of Melungeons for example can have members vary, one
member can be small, wiry, dark-complexioned; another light colored eyes
(blue or hazel), fair skin and hair; ... In many of the Melungeon, Redbone,
Lumbee etc. communities, when asked to explain their non-Anglo appearance,
they call themselves, Black Dutch, Black Irish, Portuguese, and in more
recent years Cherokee, not Indian but Cherokee. Only recently I visited with
a long-time associate who at one time called himself Black Dutch. Since
discovering that the Melungeons came from a very honorable and heroic past,
he as many others of Melungeon heritage no longer hide behind the Black
Dutch, Black Irish shield. Recently he acknowledged to me that "its no so
bad being Spanish."
- p 69-70
I might add here that Catholic Irish people have been calling protestants
"Black" protestants for millenium, mainly because (something like the Order
or Columbanus) the Protestants had Black Chapters of their various
organisations and still have today, but the originals are long lost in the
confusion of Royal Orange Orders etc..
http://www.aunmas.com/religion/ateos/relig.htm
Look for the Irish version of "Historia Britonium of Nennis"
Giraldus =W.R. Jones, "'Giraldus Redivivus' - Welsh Historian
This is latin and old latin at that, you may have to get babel fish to
interpret this, included here is some very old religious studies of the 12
and 13 centuries, but dating back hundreds of years prior. I had some
literal translations somewhere, and I may find them again, but this is a
good stepping off point.
Look previous to this I told you I 'found' my satisfactory evidence of my
original surname. Which is true, but a bit slanted. Reasearch long enough
and you (I) find what I want the findings to be (no blind studies for me) I
have to tell you that I'm descended form Celtaoi, (Keltai), which is a term
first used before Caligulas time, by the Romans, to describe the
#appearence# of peoples who might have been celtic in origin. Now here's
the catch, as well as describing us, they described the Austrians from the
areas of Hallstattersee, (Halstatt) outside Saltzburgh, also Gundestrup in
Germany itself, Latene on Lake neuchapel (Switzerland). Not to mention some
nameplaces that I've forgotten in Norway. Here's a few names to look up,
and I sort of side with the British Professors, some of whom are ridiculed
in Colleges in the UK - John Davies, (still living today) and William
Stukeley, circe 1600s. Matthew Arnold, can't remember whether he alive or
dead :-)
Thats enough for now - No??
Heh heh
Best of luck to you, I near went blind when I started this crack
Cheers
Tommy
Tommy
"John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)"
news:tml9vvcf2vplu1noo...@4ax.com...
Ireland had a complex society even in early times, with people living in
small communities farming the land. They were Pagan; worshiping the Sun and
Moon and water. For example Newgrange in County Louth, built around 3000BC,
pre-dates the pyramids and is an ancient burial site and calendar centred on
the energy and importance of the sun in Society of the time. On the Winter
Solstice, December 21st, the shortest day of the year, a long narrow passage
leading to the centre of the tomb is lit on that one day of the year. The
tomb is an amazingly complex design showing the skill of the people of the
time. These people saw the days getting shorter and shorter as winter
approached. They felt that by pleasing their gods with a series of rituals
they would stop the sun disappearing completely. So the days started to
lengthen once more and they were saved for another year.
The Celts
From the area that is now Germany, came invaders know as the Celts in around
400BC. They had superior metalwork skills compared to what was in the
country at the time. And with their iron weapons they gained control of the
country. They changed the social structure, with over one hundred small
communities called tuatha . A king or chief was known as a ri tuaithe
(meaning king of the tuatha ). Ultimately a number of ri tuaithe emerged to
have control over communities in a particular region, which led to the
provinces of Ireland today. And finally there was Tara, a dramatic hill, now
in County Meath, though still called the Royal County. This was the seat of
the High king of all Ireland.
Though much of the Celts' metal work skills were devoted to weaponry, some
was also set to the task of jewellery. and some extremely fine and detailed
work still exists to this day. Probably best known is the Tara brooch, shown
below. This can be viewed in Dublin's National Museum.
A New Religion (AD400)
Christianity arrived in Ireland in the form of French and English
missionaries in the fifth century. The native population seemed to accept
the new religion quite readily. During this time missionaries would set to
work building their monastery in their chosen district. For example
Clomacnoise still has ruins today that date from the original settlements.
For hundreds of years Ireland became a great centre of learning, with people
coming to these Monasteries to learn. Great works of art remain from this
period such as the Book of Kells; a text illuminated (painted) with gold on
vellum (a dried and stretched animal skin). Or the Ardagh Chalice; a
magnificent bowl studded in file jewels.
The Vikings
In AD795 a strange ship approached the Irish coast. It was wooden, with a
single sail, and had a fierce head carved on its prow. The men in the boat
wore fur skin, metal helmets with horns, and were heavily armed. They came
from Scandanavia and were part of the first Viking attack on Ireland. They
first targeted the monastery on Lambay Island in Dublin Bay. The island had
no defences and the Viking attackers could easily make good their escape.
But over time the Vikings became more daring, attacking the coastal sites on
the main land, and even travelling up river to attack inland sites.
Monasteries were easy targets and provided great rewards in the form of gold
crosses and chalices. The monks' reaction was to build tall round towers of
stone. They would only have a single entrance that might be twenty or thirty
feet off the ground and could be only reached by ladder. A lookout was
permanently posted at the top of this tower watching for a Viking boat on
the horizon. If spotted, an alarm was sounded and the community would rush
to the tower with any precious items and draw up the ladder. Many of these
towers are still very much intact today; such as that in Monasterboice in
Co. Louth, and Glendalough (see image below) in Co. Wicklow.
> Also a buddy of mine from Wicklow was a fairly renound footballer in
> the late 70's early 80s called "The Black Flash"
You sure thats not Paul MacGrath = the "Black Pearl "of Inchicore :-))
Tommy
http://www.youririshroots.com/ireland300bcto1922.htm
Tommy
"Artfulcodger" > My Grandmother taught me only one gaelic saying and it is
probably
> misspelled "pugh mahon".
> The Codge
I betcha any money if you search your mind you'll find most of the oul
sayings are Irish. Even some of words that you use are Irish to the nth
degree. See how easily you spelt Gaelic - Póg mo Hóin,
Eisteacht le Madra, and cluaisigh tu bhuf
Listen to dogs and you'll hear a bark
Or generally translated to "what do you expect from a dog but a bark"
so leave the Goz alone you heah :-)
Poor chappie, I can't be leaving out of the conversations for too long,
he'll think I fell out with him,
Cheers
Tommy
Tommy
"Jim Blair" <> "Tommy" wrote
I think that Columbus fellow focked it up when he sailed West
:-))
Cheers
Tommy
Artfulcodger
> Eisteacht le Madra, and cluaisigh tu bhuf
>
Tommy that looks like an insult upon one's mother but it must sound like an
emphasmatic cough.
Think I will stick with pugh ma hon or however you spell it.
The Codge
Tommy
"Artfulcodger" <>
Madra = dog
and bhuf = vuff = woof, there are no letters j k q v w x y or z in the
language, We use the letter 'h' to add a softener to a coarse letter (in
olden times a dot called a síabhú was placed over the letter to change its
pronounciation)
As opposed to a tilde type stroke over a vowel (a fada) to coarsen it :-))
Cheers, a Cara,
Cara = friend in many languages
Tom G.
>
> Eisteacht le Madra, and cluaisigh tu bhuf
Speak American, you freakin' foreigner... Usenet is American...
Tom - American
\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell the...@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
Tommy
"Tom G." > Speak American, you freakin' foreigner... Usenet is
American...
>
>
> Tom - American
Aww did you miss me chucklecheeks :-))
Hope 2K4 is good for you - this is a leap year, so keep your legs closed
Cheers
Tommy
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
>
>
>> Also a buddy of mine from Wicklow was a fairly renound footballer in
>> the late 70's early 80s called "The Black Flash"
>
>You sure thats not Paul MacGrath = the "Black Pearl "of Inchicore :-))
Donnie Lamb of Wicklow- said he got his speed running from the Dub's
(as he called them)
>
>Tommy
>
>http://www.youririshroots.com/ireland300bcto1922.htm
>
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
wrote:
> I just hope for the US's sake, that the Mad Cow disease
>isnt found to be bigger than reported and that they have been carrying
>out all the recognised tests and taking the neccessary safety
>precautions. Figures I have read showed that this wasnt the case and
>that the agricultural watchdogs might have been as lax as the airport
>watchdogs. As I said, time will tell.
>Ted F.
Given the industrial nature of how meat is raised and rendered in the
US, it's not only probably worse than they know, it's probably worse
than they *can* know.
A reporter named Eric Schlosser wrote a very interesting book a few
years back called "Fast Food Nation The Dark Side of the All-American
Meal " that traced the impact of McD's et al on America... one of the
best parts (as in most useful parts) of the book was the description
of the meat processing industry as it has become post Mc-Ds. The
upshot was that one infected animal (infected with anything,
salmonela, e. coli, BSE etc) can taint 1000's and 1000's of lbs of
meat, particularly if its hamburger.
Excepts from the book:
http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/press/rollingstone1.html
For now- make mine chicken
John Lee Pettimore (just like my daddy and his daddy before)
Tom - Amadhaun
Ted F.
Thanks. I've saved it as a PDF document, I'll read it later.
Ted F.