2003 Hoverwing XR
Stephan Zeidler
Wondered if there might be anyone out there who has an idea on the cost
of a turn-key Universal Hoverwing XR or if Universal has any plans to
develop wing kits for any of their other models like the UH-15 TriFlier
for example? I emailed Universal directly regarding this and have
received no response in almost a week. Called them on Friday and left a
message as well. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Stephan Z.
Stephan Zeidler
Terry
at the site the prices are on there. Oops just looked again the prices
are gone, thats what it was the last time I looked though, guess that
would be a rough estimate then.
I think the tri-flier would be too heavey to fly being made of wood
and all.
Terry
www.angelfire.com/tv2/tvthover
Stephan Zeidler <szei...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<aOiDc.907572$Ig.764436@pd7tw2no>...
Stephan Zeidler
UH-15P being too heavy, theoretically I can't see it.
According to the stats given on the UH site, the UH-18SP/W has an empty
weight of 750 lbs. and the UH-15P weighs in at 400-500 lbs.
If a forward speed of 55-60 mph is required to achieve the WIG effect,
the UH-15P should realistically be able to get up to that speed.
I understand that Designs Unlimited (http://www.du-groundeffect.com)
has plans to manufacture full scale WIG crafts based on hover technology
as a "lift aid" (which they have a patent)that will be affordable and
extremely stable based on a number of years of model testing. They
appaear to be convinced that they have solved the age-old "blowover"
problem inherant of WIG craft.
Terry
enough!!
The 55 60 mph to get off the ground means you have to get to that
speed with the wings on, wich is alot more drag than without them on.
I imagine if a guy wanted to make the 15 fly it could be done but it'd
be alot of trial and error and that ussually cost alot more than just
going with the plans of whats been done already. I checked out the
site you posted and until it shows a real live full sized wig I'd be
weary. At least with the 18spw I know it's been done before and I can
watch a video of a real one right on there site. Plus I even got to
fly in one before I started building, for me seeing is believing!!
Terry
Stephan Zeidler <szei...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<JjEDc.877384$Pk3.332039@pd7tw1no>...
Ken Roberts
anything that's not too heavy or too slow could be made into a wig. the 15p is
probably a good candidate because if built per plan it's very light and very
fast. only i don't know right off the top of my head what engines are stock, i
may not have ever seen one with engines that are close to stock.
next, to stephan, go find another 70+ mph 4-6 place turnkey recreational
hovercraft and tell me what it costs. even without wings. terry is absolutely
right about the average joe building his own craft. first, i seriously doubt
you will find any other hovercraft in the world that has performance specs like
the uh-18sp for any price, especially if you want one that's been built before.
with the uh-18, there have been a lot of hours of testing before the plans were
even released, then a lot more hours of people who built the uh-18, and finally
there was enough data to releaese a fully built craft. frankly i think they're
nuts for offering it as a wig for sale for any price at all.
i know that uh has sold and still sells the xr as a finished craft. i've seen
one that i know of go out the door that way, and there's one in the oven right
now that bill told me is for a customer. there have also been some partially
finished hulls that went out.
go get yourself some uh-18 plans and start building.
Ken Roberts
i just looked at that web site. these guys are model builders, i didn't see a
single picture of a full sized wig. until you can see those pictures and talk
to somebody not connected to the company that makes the thing, and find examples
of at least that brand being built by several other people, then don't put too
much faith in their ability. you might not remember the ultralight aircraft
fad, but there were reputedly companies selling plans and kits for planes that
had never flown. there are regulations for that now, or at least the fad has
cooled down enough and enough warnings have been posted to prevent somebody from
dying because of somebody else's greed.
wing in ground effect is nothing new, and water-only ones are probably a lot
more common than hovercraft-based ones. the models shown on the web site you
referenced are water only, in spite of their use of the term "hover technology."
there are dozens of uh-18's either functional or in progress, and hundreds of
people who have seen them fly. i'm building one, and i've ridden in, flown, or
cruised next to them for hundreds of miles. these things really work, either as
hovercrafts or as wing in ground effect vehicles. these aren't miles of model
testing, they're miles of actual use with people in them.
if you're going to look for a wig, go look for a company whose site shows a lot
of full-sized photos and maybe some model photos. and then go search for that
company on the web to find builder sites, and even the particular model of craft
you want to build on those sites.
whoa. i just went to google and typed in "uh-18" and my site came up as the
first universal hovecraft hit. what are the rest of you guys doing? ok, i
found the rest of you on "uh-18sp." maybe i should change my links?
anyway, go do your search and you'll find a stack of them or if you don't then
don't build that one. there are plenty of real wig nuts out there, especially
from the boat perspective. don't waste time on ones that are only building
models. models are great, if they actually use them to make the real thing
from, or if you just want a model.
Stephan Zeidler
This appears to have spawned quite a thread! Hope a few others jump into
the fray and offer their input as well. I tell ya Ken, this whole
hovercraft/WIG thing has absolutely captivated me since stumbling across
the Universal Hovercraft site about two weeks ago. I remember reading
about a WIG craft in Popular Mechanics way back when (July '89?) called
the Flarecraft (Bill Russell and company have since gone bankrupt)and I
thought "too cool" but obviously way out of my league. Now here we are
in 2004 and this comes along. A practical way to enjoy the sensation of
flight (close enough for me anyway) without a quarter million dollar
price tag and a pilot's license. I was again intrigued and went on a
Google search frenzy to discover that Vernon Weber had achieved the same
WIG effect with his StarCruiser and that there were plans also available
for the Super HoverHawk - http://www.hoverhawk.com/ and Bernd Koehler's
Hoverwing (or Skimmer 2 & 4)- http://www.ikarus342000.com/Constrimages.htm
I was always fascinated with hovercraft, hydrofoils, speedboats
(especially those South African racing inflatables!) and ultralight
aircraft as a kid/teenager and now here we have something that seems to
capture the best of two of those worlds. Man, where have I been?
Mindblowing stuff! The only reason I mentioned the Designs Unlimited
guys (father & son team btw and they are both engineers) was because of
the one blurb on their site which caught my attention that stated: "Our
main goal is to manufacture WIG craft that are suitable for mass market
consumption. There are two main criteria for a mass market craft: it
must be inexpensive, and it must be very simple to operate". I realize
that this is not a hovercraft but it roused my curiosity nontheless. I
actually e-mailed them the other day asking about the current stage of
development and this is the reply I got: "We are currently nearly done
designing a full-scale craft and have partnered with a boat construction
company; we plan to begin constructing a prototype this year.
Eventually we do plan to make a craft that the average person can
operate and afford, as this has been our goal all along. The prototype
will be of a larger, passenger-oriented craft utilizing a professional
pilot, but once we have experience with the larger craft we will begin
to produce smaller craft geared towards private ownership". I'm not
entirely convinced that this is the way I'd go but I guess if there are
deep pockets somewhere... I think I might have gone the other way, start
small and work my way up but I suppose that's why they're the engineers
and I'm simply the "consumer".
But enough about water-based WIG craft, this is after all a hovercraft
based newsgroup so I won't mention it again. I will however privately
keep tabs on it though.
Also, although I realize that the best way to learn more about
hovercraft and to know your craft inside out, is to build your own
(either from scratch -- with decent plans of course, or a kit).
The time and space (as in room to build) factor is one that
unfortunately I can't ignore and hence the reason behind the inquiry
about a turn-key unit. Apparently I'm not the only one who has time
restraints as I did also receive a response from a gentleman whose
UH-18SPW is currently in the pipe (possibly one of the units you
mention) and was slated for delivery sometime in May but is apparently
slightly behind sked. He assures me that he will document the arrival of
his machine and his experience with it and I suggested that he perhaps
share it with the newsgroup as there may be others interested as well.
Affordability is also a factor albeit not necessarily a critical one. I
didn't expect a pricetag of anything less than say $30,000 on a
completed unit from the factory but unless one asks, one will never
know. It's obviously inherantly more economical to build your own.
Then after scouring a few classifieds and of course the almighty eBay, I
noted that the UH-15P was probably a craft more along the lines of my
rather "limited" budget, relatively speaking of course and was curious
as to whether it could be retro-fitted with a similar (perhaps somewhat
scaled down version) of the UH-18SPW wing/tail kit based on the
similarity in design principles. You appear to have a few ties to the
good folks down at UH (noted your photo as a team member of the Lewis
and Clark Expedition! How'd that go?), any chance of floating the idea
with them and seeing what the realistic possibilities are for a future
wing kit for the UH-15P? Thanks for the post. Much appreciated. You too
Terry and anyone else who decides to join in.
Warmest Regards,
Stephan Z.
Barry Palmer
the Sevtec website. This was in the 1970's, however, and wheels precluded me
landing on the water (except a couple times, by accident, the landings padded
by the sawgrass).
It should be noted, that none of the WIG programs has provided a vehicle that
will automatically attain WIG flight that is so stable that the controls can be
turned over to the average person, with no experience. From my experience, the
pilotage workload was significant and you do have to fly the craft all the
time. While flying was easy for moderate periods, there is no place for "wool
gathering" while at the controls. It was far easier to fly at 20-30 feet than
near the surface (my craft got very little in the way of ground effect,
anyway.)
Also, by designing to fly out of ground effect one gets a more efficient
aircraft, contrary to those "selling" these craft, as one has to install enough
power to go over the "hump" and carry a bouyant hull, so the weight is in the
WIG craft, and the only way the WIG craft compare efficiencies seems to be with
themselves, flying at altitude, or in ground effect at speeds well below craft
capability.
The real world of wind gusts (and being forced to fly at a lift coefficient
near unity) and obstructions precludes the use of the WIG concept at low
speeds, so high speeds are required with attendant danger associated with full
fledged aircraft, so the builder should consider a step up in the quality of
construction that can be used in typical homebuilt hovercraft construction.
The problem still remains as to whether these craft are in a separate category
from free flying aircraft. There is an area near the ground or water that
could be used by a type of craft that is below that commonly used by
helicopters, but using ground effect for stability and efficiency is just not
proving to be practical. Other forms of WIG craft attitude control may be
used, particularly active systems involving acoustics, or lasers, or other
range finding devices will solve some of the pilotage problems, but not those
problems caused by nature.
>Subject: Re: 2003 Hoverwing XR
>From: Stephan Zeidler szei...@shaw.ca
>Date: 6/28/04 11:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <U%7Ec.933875$oR5.751551@pd7tw3no>
Barry Palmer, for <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/sevtec/sev/skmr.html">Sevtec</A>
Ken Roberts
> Hi Ken,
> This appears to have spawned quite a thread! Hope a few others jump into
> the fray and offer their input as well. I tell ya Ken, this whole
> hovercraft/WIG thing has absolutely captivated me since stumbling across
> the Universal Hovercraft site about two weeks ago. I remember reading
> about a WIG craft in Popular Mechanics way back when (July '89?) called
> the Flarecraft (Bill Russell and company have since gone bankrupt)and I
> thought "too cool" but obviously way out of my league. Now here we are
> in 2004 and this comes along. A practical way to enjoy the sensation of
> flight (close enough for me anyway) without a quarter million dollar
> price tag and a pilot's license. I was again intrigued and went on a
welcome to the club. if you didn't know already, i'm building a uh-18spw. it's
got both ducts on it now and the engine mount built most of the way, but hasn't
had any progress in the past couple months because i bought a house.
> Google search frenzy to discover that Vernon Weber had achieved the same
> WIG effect with his StarCruiser and that there were plans also available
> for the Super HoverHawk - http://www.hoverhawk.com/ and Bernd Koehler's
> Hoverwing (or Skimmer 2 & 4)- http://www.ikarus342000.com/Constrimages.htm
vernon's wig craft works just fine, but it's not based on the starcruiser
hovercraft. it IS a hovercraft, but specially made. it has only a 4" hover
height, and i haven't seen them run it for a couple years now. don't know if
they got tired of that, or what.
hoverhawk.com shows only drawings, so i'd be extremely skeptical until you see
proof that it works. if they want you to pay for proof, then they will probably
try to nickle and dime you to death over the length of your project.
the ikarus site shows a couple small images of flight, but not like you'd think.
if they had consistent and extensive flight, you'd expect movies on the web
site, or at least a lot more pictures with a lot better quality.
> I was always fascinated with hovercraft, hydrofoils, speedboats
> (especially those South African racing inflatables!) and ultralight
> aircraft as a kid/teenager and now here we have something that seems to
> capture the best of two of those worlds. Man, where have I been?
> Mindblowing stuff! The only reason I mentioned the Designs Unlimited
> guys (father & son team btw and they are both engineers) was because of
> the one blurb on their site which caught my attention that stated: "Our
> main goal is to manufacture WIG craft that are suitable for mass market
> consumption. There are two main criteria for a mass market craft: it
> must be inexpensive, and it must be very simple to operate". I realize
> that this is not a hovercraft but it roused my curiosity nontheless. I
hovercrafts aren't that hard to operate. just a bit tricky to learn. once you
have the idea, they're pretty maneuverable. and if you want to build it
yourself, they can be fairly cheap.
> actually e-mailed them the other day asking about the current stage of
> development and this is the reply I got: "We are currently nearly done
> designing a full-scale craft and have partnered with a boat construction
> company; we plan to begin constructing a prototype this year.
> Eventually we do plan to make a craft that the average person can
> operate and afford, as this has been our goal all along. The prototype
> will be of a larger, passenger-oriented craft utilizing a professional
> pilot, but once we have experience with the larger craft we will begin
> to produce smaller craft geared towards private ownership". I'm not
they shouldn't partner with a boat company, they should partner with an aircraft
company. universal hovercraft is a lot closer to their goal than they are.
> entirely convinced that this is the way I'd go but I guess if there are
> deep pockets somewhere... I think I might have gone the other way, start
> small and work my way up but I suppose that's why they're the engineers
> and I'm simply the "consumer".
frankly, they need some sort of full-sized experience, and years of it before
they go designing things for other people to ride in. universal doesn't seem to
have deep pockets anywhere, but they do have an aeronautical engineer and lots
of experience.
> But enough about water-based WIG craft, this is after all a hovercraft
> based newsgroup so I won't mention it again. I will however privately
> keep tabs on it though.
a wing in ground effect is a variety of hovercraft, no matter what launch mode
it has. you won't be spurned for talking about those here. you should probably
mention water-only or based on boats, or people here will tend to think of a
hovercraft converted into a wig or some such.
you can ask. if your 15p is built properly and has a big enough engine, it will
probably work fine as a wig. the real issue is convincing them to do the math
for you.
if you want some advice, get the 15p (or whatever) and learn to drive it, and
maintain it. come to events that bob and the rest of uh will show up at, and
after they know who you are they might be more inclined to help you with the
wing. in other words, they might be a bit cagey about releasing untested
products to a stranger, where if they know your ability and your temperament,
they might be more inclined to help.
lewis and clark was a lot of fun, and oddly enough after the week was over i
could have gone right into another week of that. you'd think i would get tired
of it. i learned a lot about long distance hovering, and next time i'll be
better prepared and hopefully driving my own uh-18.
Ken Roberts
say that as a general rule nobody really expects a wig to be more efficient.
the faa left efficiency completely out of their definition, so they obviously
don't think that either.
as far as stability, i know the uh-18 does get significant stability from ground
effect. it has no ailerons, and no dihedral. so the only thing keeping it
right side up is surface effect. i'm also under the impression that it follows
the terrain fairly well, but i don't know how much the driver has to monkey with
it.
Marquis Songer
I'll break this down into smaller parts for simplicity:
Q: "... who has an idea on the cost of a turn-key Universal Hoverwing
XR..."
A: The price starts around $35,000 but it has not yet been finalized due to
the development and implementation of new molds for the craft.
Q: "...if Universal has any plans to develop wing kits for any of their
other models like the UH-15 TriFlier"
A: Currently the UH-18SPW is the only craft that will have ground effect
capabilities. This craft was designed all along to be able to accommodate
the wings and longer tail assembly, the other designs were not. Eventually
there may be a smaller version of this craft available, probably in the 16'
length range, but there are no plans for this anytime soon.
Q: "I emailed Universal directly regarding this and have received no
response in almost a week."
A: I've searched for your email and have not seen it anywhere. It's very
possible that one of our spam filters picked up your email. Unfortunately
that happens once and a while and I catch it most of the time but there are
a few that slip through the cracks. Please resend your email and I'll make
sure I keep an eye out for it and if the spam filter catches it I'll make
sure I fix it.
Q: "...Called them on Friday and left a message as well"
A: This past weekend was the national hoverrally in Chillicothe, OH.
Everyone left Thursday afternoon. There is a lot of stuff to catch up on
when everyone leaves for a rally.
If you have any questions please feel free to contact us by telephone or
email.
Best regards,
Marquis Songer
Universal Hovercraft
www.hovercraft.com
404 W. Front St.
Harvard, IL USA 60033
ph) +1 (815) 943-1200
fx) +1 (815) 943-1800
"Stephan Zeidler" <szei...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ZNiDc.862403$Pk3.849997@pd7tw1no...
Chris Serbus
videos of wig flight ,alot of diffrent ones check it out.
"Ken Roberts" <k...@kroberts.in.9ci.com> wrote in message
news:slrnce3i...@kroberts.in.9ci.com...
Ken Roberts
Dave Schneider
"Ken Roberts" <k...@kroberts.in.9ci.com> wrote in message
news:slrnce8s...@kroberts.in.9ci.com...
Ken Roberts
did you ever see the weber wig fly?
Stephan Zeidler
I've visited that site on more than a few occasions. Through the links
page on that site I was able to access their WIG mailing list now being
hosted at Yahoo Groups: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/wig/
to get a feel for where things are headed in terms of development in
that area. I was scanning through a few posts and came across a very
long thread (Messages 3744 to 3760) about the UH Hoverwing (view here):
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/wig/messages/3734
Surprisingly enough, one of several posts (The Rice's) in that thread
was from the guys over at Designs Unlimited (the ones with the WIG
models who just completed their design for a full-size craft I had
mentioned in an earlier post). He made a few interesting comments that I
wish I were more qualified to respond to. All in all a good resource for
Wing in Ground Effect for anyone interested.
Stephan Zeidler
Thanks for the reply. Reagrding my e-mail to UH, I had sent it during
the day from work so it wouldn't have had the same e-mail address as the
one I use here. That e-mail would have been addressed from
stephan@halford****.com
I'll see if I can dig it up in my "Sent" folder at work and re-send it.
Regarding the message I left on the voice-mail, I can certainly
understand that a National Rally would keep folks over there hopping and
could have gotten easily overlooked in all the excitement. I realize
from a marketing standpoint that these rallies are often the bread and
butter of many industries and a lot of time, focus and preparation is
required. I guess it was just my rotten luck to have picked that day to
call.
All that aside however, I think all my questions so far have pretty much
been answered. I guess it would to be too easy to want to believe (from
a layman's perspective anyway) that a guy could just bolt on a set of
wings and expect something to fly just because it looks like something
else that already does. Wishful thinking on my part.
I hope you folks over at UH really give some serious consideration to a
smaller one or two-person hovercraft design with WIG capabilities. If
you can come up with a design that is compact and affordable, I think
you'd have a tremendous market for it worldwide. I recently read about a
fellow over in Australia who has come up with an airfoil design that is
to be towed behind a boat like a wakeboard but "flies" in ground effect.
It's called the "Sharkski". Here's the article where I saw it:
http://www.gizmo.com.au/public/News/news.asp?articleid=2287
I don't know if he's taken the idea from this fellow with the following
site: http://reprieve.iwarp.com/
or if they are somehow tied in together. Looks almost identical to me.
They are now planning to develop a jetski type WIG craft. Again,
probably based more on the boat rather than the hovercraft concept but
the cost of the "Sharkski" seems relatively affordable and if the wing
design could be applied to a properly designed hovercraft, it could
possibly work. I think the actual wing design itself would be quite
critical but again, I'm not the engineer.
Thanks again Marquis and if I do come up with any other questions, I'll
be sure to e-mail, post a message here or call directly (when there are
no rallies scheduled! ;-)
Regards,
Stephan Z.
Ken Roberts
than a hovercraft, and besides the goal for the uh-18spw wasn't to create a wing
in ground effect, it was an attempt to control blowover and to use the
hovercraft for something other than hovering.
i won't reply to yahoo groups because i don't agree with their membership
policy, but it's an interesting thread.
Ken Roberts
they used to back in the day.
so i just spammed them for a while.