Engine computers, relays, etc.
Ken Roberts
I thought I'd give you the output of some experimentation from this
weekend.
Most of you know (whether you want to or not) that I'm using a
computerized VW engine on my UH-18sp.
I had time to do some tinkering this weekend, and here's what I found:
- I used receiver foam for remote control aircrafts to isolate the
circuitry board that all the relays and computer is mounted to.
- CAT5 cable (24 AWG solid core ethernet cable) is adequate to keep a
standard automotive relay coil running continually, even after a 50
foot run.
- Make the wiring diagram before you start running wires.
- Make sure you know what part of the craft each component is before
you make the wiring diagram.
- Include connectors and wire color in the diagram.
- Label which fuse is for what first.
- Don't ignore the car's original diagram. I reversed the order of a
fuse and a relay just because of how my fuse block works, and it turns
out that makes things really confusing.
The receiver foam is incredible stuff. If I could afford enough of it
to make a seat out of I would. The half-inch thick stuff costs about $5
USD for a sheet about the size of typing paper. I used some 1/4"
plywood for a circuit board because I need to screw into it, then
mounted the computer and relays and fuse blocks to that. I made some
mounting blocks in the tunnel, then used gorilla glue to glue the foam
in place. I dropped the computer in there and then stuffed more foam in
to make a solid but no contact mount for the circuitry board.
The ethernet cable was a convenience thing. I have all these wires for
relays, and only so many colors. Very few of these wires need to carry
any significant current. Most are to relays of one sort or other. I had
some ethernet cable and I finally rigged up a couple boxes to test
things. It passed with flying colors.
Here's my thoughts on solid core: Some of the automotive wiring is made
with several strands of 24 awg wire, so as long as the ethernet cable
is bundled in the same housing as the thicker stuff it should be fine.
It's the sharp bends that get the solid core wiring. I'll find a way to
stick the thin wires to the nearest solid support when I get everything
done to prevent vibration issues.
I'm running wires so that they all come at the circuit board from the
same corner, and there's plenty of extra to allow for movement and
maintenance. The board is completely isolated from any vibration or
stress, and there's lots of air moving through the tunnel for cooling.
The wires all have (or will have) connectors on them for quick
disconnect. The ethernet cable has ethernet connectors on it, which is
about as light and compact as you can get.
rol1
the lift fan belt is working?
David Bosworth
environment. I do not remember but it is either a corrosion or vibration
thing. Probably not the end of the world though.
--
From the rocky shores of the Skykomish river
David Bosworth
http://www.premier1.net/~daveb/hovercrafts.html
"Ken Roberts" <for...@hoverclub.net> wrote in message
news:1151963102.3...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Ken Roberts
there are additional considerations:
- I'm running the wire through a waterproof flexible pvc conduit,
which will show wear way before any wire gets touched.
- The conduit has a minimum bend diameter of about a foot.
- The automotive wire I'm using is made of strands of the same gauge
wire, and the stranded wire is in the same bundle with the flexible
conduit.
- The board I'm mounting all the circuitry to is vibration damped,
and the dashboard will be damped the same way.
- This is an automotive powered craft, not a 2-stroke powered craft.
When I've run the engine before, there's no detectable vibration on the
hull as yet.
- Both ends of the cable will be in dry environments.
This is as much an experiment as anything. I'm curious to see if it
will work, and it would be nice if anyone who has tried it would come
up with the results of their testing. This is for inland use only, I
don't intend to get anywhere near salt water.
David Bosworth
"marine" when I was wiring my hover. In fact I knew this when I rewired my
big cruiser boat but had to be reminded by a group member when I wired the
hovercraft. I did not have any trouble with the solid wire I used in the
hover but changed it out anyway. There is probably more to it in regards to
wire size and application, as you said the wire is the same size as the
individual strands of the stranded stuff and what you are talking about is
pretty small. I do not even know how small you can get stranded wire. In
fact wiring is the least favorite part of any building job for me, which is
why I generally have to redo it at some point.
--
From the rocky shores of the Skykomish river
David Bosworth
http://www.premier1.net/~daveb/hovercrafts.html
"Ken Roberts" <for...@hoverclub.net> wrote in message
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Barry Palmer
Actually, stranded wire is required by the USCG and preferred by ABYC,
which shows the problems with "one size fits all" specifications. The
problem is vibration, and solid wire will break. However, there is a
problem with corrosion.
Sevtec experience in salt water has shown that there is a very real
problem with stranded wire if one does not carefully seal the
junctions, especially connecting to the engine, with some sort of
sealant. Stranded wire, tinned or bare, will "wick" water and corrode
inside the insulation, as much as 4 feet after 2 seasons in salt water.
As long as stranded wire is supported reasonably it will not tend to
break, but the solid wire can more easily break, particularly near the
engine, depending on how it is supported.
Particular sealing problems are where wires enter the starter or
solenoid, where the sealant must eventually seal to metal, and a
product called "AquaSeal", used for wet suits, seems to work better
than such as liquid vinyl, which works if the seal can go from vinyl
insulation to vinyl insulation.
The biggest problems are with the spark plug boots, and use of PWC type
boots, or use of shrink tubing can solve problems here.
A new set of problems will arise with the EFI systems now used on
engines. Until the manufacturers recognize that the Electronics should
be physically sealed and attached directly to the engine, there are
numerous ways for corrosion and other problems to occur.
Barry Palmer, for Sevtec
Ken Roberts
I didn't know there was a USCG regulation on whether the wire is
stranded or not.
Well, I guess I'll have to figure out a way to mark the wires in spite
of color then. I can't find anything other than the basic 6 colors.
Oh well.
anonymous
> Hmm.
>
> I didn't know there was a USCG regulation on whether the wire is
> stranded or not.
>
> Well, I guess I'll have to figure out a way to mark the wires in spite
> of color then. I can't find anything other than the basic 6 colors.
>
> Oh well.
The US, Canadian, Australian, British (and others, I'm sure) all require
the use of stranded wire, as due to vibration, solid wire is destined to
fail at some point in time. Some (perhaps all, as well) also stipulate the
use of tinned stranded wire only to help keep corrosion under bay, but
this is not practical for existing computer or other electronic circuitry
(I have yet to cut into a marine radio to confirm whether they use tinned
wire). I am certain those stipulations are meant for general electrical
circuits. And I agree with the statements made by Barry regarding the
impracticality of using stranded wire as relates to salt water and wicking
inside the insulation . . . clearly, it "gooyey stuff" to the rescue here!
When you say "can't find anything other than the basic 6 colors", are you
referring to USCG's requirements for color coding of wiring (i.e. grey for
navigation circuits, pink for fuel related stuff, red for unfused, etc.).
If so, then yes, you will have problems finding stranded, tinned wire in
those colors. Marine wire is mostly available in white, black or red. I
have seen some gray. I once spoke with a manufacturer that produced only
marine wire and they stated that regardless of coast guard requirements,
they produced only white, black and red.
One way around having to obtain difficult to find wire colors such as the
pinks, blues, etc) is to use white wire instead and wrap small bits of
paper or tape of the right color around the wire near the connectors at
both ends, then use clear shrink-wrap to protect the color band and keep
it in place. It's extra work, but it also presents opportunities to label
wires and have them stay on. Great for when your wiring schematics have
fallen to the bottom of the lake.
--
anonymous
Ken Roberts
than 6 wires. I have 4 gauges that need to be run, so that makes 4
signal wires. I have switches for ignition, starter, lights, etc, and
I have power (switched and unswitched) and ground. I can find 6 colors
of automotive wire: Red, black, blue, yellow, green, white. This is
stranded but not tinned. The USCG is just going to have to write me a
ticket on that.
My goal here is to have a system that I can figure out some day when
I'm stranded on a beach, or if I want to change something. I WANT a
different color for each thing. It goes no further than that. When I
look at my diagram and it says "GRN" I want to look for the green wire
and know that it's for the fuel pump, or whatever I make it be for,
even if I can't see the ends. I don't want to have to figure out if
it's the fuel pump or the tach, and have to trace it to be sure. Read:
I'm being fussy here. If anyone else were doing it, they'd have had
red, black and white, or just red and black and hope it never has to
come apart again.
This is not an oceangoing vessel, so there will be no exposure to salt
water. I will not carry passengers for hire, and I will not haul cargo
for sale. It's a recreational homebuilt hovercraft, not a cruise ship.
Having been around boats all my life, nobody I've seen has used the
colors you just described, including commercially sold boats. So I'm
not worried about that so much.
Having looked in a couple of boat shops around here, they didn't have
tinned wire either. They had plain-old copper in three or four colors
like you said.
Pat
> > One way around having to obtain difficult to find wire colors such as the
> > pinks, blues, etc) is to use white wire instead and wrap small bits of
> > paper or tape of the right color around the wire near the connectors at
> > both ends, then use clear shrink-wrap to protect the color band and keep
> > it in place. It's extra work, but it also presents opportunities to label
> > wires and have them stay on. Great for when your wiring schematics have
> > anonymous
There is also a plastic number tag system sold at electrical supply
houses that may suit your needs otherwise just pull the wires one at
time. Once the wires are laid in don't mess with them.
Good Luck
--Pat
rol1
stripe grey with 1 or 2 stripes , red with stripes?
Every wire I see has a company name and duty rating on them. A shame
they don't numbers too. They could have a line with numbers or colors,
for little or no extra cost to their making it happen.
Ken Roberts
Pat wrote:
> There is also a plastic number tag system sold at electrical supply
> houses that may suit your needs otherwise just pull the wires one at
> time. Once the wires are laid in don't mess with them.
>
> Good Luck
>
> --Pat
Pat,
I might have to look into that plastic number tag thing, but the "don't
mess with them" part ain't gonna happen. There's not a single square
inch of my 12r that I "didn't mess with" at least twice. That's the
reason for a homebrew hovercraft, you can mess with it.
Ken Roberts
car engine. There are a dozen colors and a dozen colors of stripes,
and they cover the whole range. The problem is that nobody ever BUYS a
dozen colors of wire.
For what it's worth, I can go to Home Depot and buy a dozen colors or
more of solid core household wire, by the spool, in 100 or 500 foot
lengths.
rol1
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/tabviewer/startBrowseBook.do?bookid=137&preview=&type=RET&simple=
If you print the "specials" pic and take to harberfreight. $19
http://www.harborfreight.com/tabviewer/1151/cover.jpg
They let you print the adds and take to local store and you can get
that price.
rol1
Ken Roberts
I think I'm going to have to double up my colors. Maybe if I can find
some of those wire markers that Pat was talking about, I can use those.
OZ Hover
range of wire colours and should sell you the wire in the lengths that you
require..
T.W.
"Ken Roberts" <for...@hoverclub.net> wrote in message
news:1152400593....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Ken Roberts
are auto mechanics, and they all knew of my quest for various colors of
wire. Having been in their shops, I've never seen other than the few
colors I already have. Here in the US, if the wiring goes bad you
order a wiring harness from the manufacturer of the vehicle usually.
Likewise car audio places seem only to have a few colors as well.
OZ Hover
used to rebuild starters, Alternators as well as specialise in Electrical
probs, now they mostly just fit starters and Alternators unless you find an
old timer, have never heard of a new loom being ordered down under.. but I
guess it happens in the newer cars??
I had my Robin motor wired up by an Auto elec he used all original colour
wires to match engine, pink ,orange, black with a stripe etc
Tony.W.news:1152630159.6...@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Buy_Sell
Why not recycle old wiring harnesses from scrapped cars at the wrecking
yards?
You could probably get good wire there for real cheap. Lots of colors
and lots of different makes of cars to choose from.
-----------------------------
Ken Roberts
need to go from the dash to the engine area in one run, and to do so
"properly" I need to go from the dash over to the lift duct and then
down and back. The run is about 15 feet. Having taken my own car
apart, there are very few wires that are more than about 4 feet long in
a standard wiring harness. They keep them as short as they can,
probably just to cut down on cost.
I'm really not trying to say nothing's good enough, I just think I'll
have to double up on colors. Right now there's too much stuff going on
anyway, I don't have time to work on it. I've tried mcmaster carr, car
audio places, auto mechanics, electrician suppliers, and some online
distribution centers.
However it works, if I can find a place that sells the stuff I'll
probably wind up buying a few spools of wire that I'll use
approximately once, then they'll sit around for decades.
Those tags Pat mentioned are looking really good right now.
Law Dawg
Buy some Wire markers from an Electrical Supply House and get some clear
Heat shrink tubing slip it over the Wire marker on each end and you have a
permanent mark. then you can do your own Schematic for what you are
attempting to wire up. Doug (lurker)
"Ken Roberts" <for...@hoverclub.net> wrote in message
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Buy_Sell
http://www.designnotes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=K%2FMOW&Category_Code=caw
How many colors do you need?
Ken Roberts
24awg too, maybe it'll work with an RJ45 connector?
Thanks, I think I'll have to get that one.
Pannawonica
Truck and trailer spare parts shop ,, we have one over here
in Australia called ' Truckline ' I found trailer wire suitable
for wiring the towercrane power packs I used to work on ..
and occasionally the loadcell computers (in an emergency) ..
Pannawonica ..
"OZ Hover" <tnywst*remove*@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:44b0dfca$0$14113$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Ken Roberts
Instead of going to Muscoda this weekend (showing up at a cruise with
no hovercraft is a drag) I worked on my UH-18sp, among other things.
I decided to just use the colors I have. I found a spool of brown
wire, which means that I have enough to do a conduit from dash to
computer area, and another from the computer area to the engine, and a
third from the engine to the dash.
The short part of the story is, my UH-18sp runs and hovers again.
There's still some work to do with getting the wires the right length
and correctly mounting everything, but the wiring needed for this stage
is done, the computer "board" is mounted in receiver foam and the wire
is mostly routed but not wrapped into a loom. I still need to mount
the ignition coil somewhere.
FWIW, here's what's left before a test run:
- Variator handle.
- Control stick.
- Tail structure (to mount already existing rudders and trim wing)
- Mount the control panel, zip tie wires, etc.
- Make the back part of the seat.
- Fix the alternator mount so it tracks right.
- Tie the air cleaner down somehow.
- Make a gas tank.
My 12r is extremely broken. Nearly every part that transfers thrust
from the prop to the hull is compromised, so I'm trying to get the big
one going instead.
Dave Schneider
heckling since you weren't there. :-)
Git-R-Done
"Ken Roberts" <for...@hoverclub.net> wrote in message
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Ken Roberts
I wanted to go, but I get cranky when I don't have a hovercraft that
works. I also had a huge load of stuff to do around home, only a small
portion of which was related to hovering.
One thing I was hoping for is a chance to look at the structural sample
Terry was going to bring. I think my next craft migh be made of that
stuff. I'm thinking something small, haven't decided on small and slow
or small and fast yet but would like something that can fit on my roof
rack. You 25 hp guys seem to have some pretty respectable fly/fix
ratios. I got a craving for that right now, hopefully my UH-18sp will
help out that way.
Dave Schneider
of problems to overcome ... but things have stabalized ... knock on wood!
I had about an hours work after the first 15 minutes of fly time.
Encounter with rebar from those deterorating nasty cement traction blocks at
the bottom of the ramp. 2' rip on one side when going out, and a 2' rip on
opposite side coming in. I wasn't sure I'd make it back after the 2nd run.
Of course there were exit rips in the back too, but nothing to complain
about. I think it's REALLY time to change my skirt now. It only has 145
hours on it! :-)
"Ken Roberts" <for...@hoverclub.net> wrote in message
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