Sig .22 Trailside - My Observations on this pistol
Brent
Hello all. I was recently in the market for a nice .22 target pistol
to shoot instead of my expen$ive to operate .40, 9mm, and .357
pistols. After a lot of careful research in the newsgroups as well as
on the Web, I came across the Sig Trailside. I had narrowed my
choices down to either a Ruger MK II, Browning Buck Mark 5.5 Field or
the Sig Trailside. My main criteria were reasonable price (under
$500), accurate, quality manufacturing, and locally available
(Atlanta, GA). I ended up finding the 6" barrel Trailside without the
competition grips at a local dealer and made the purchase for around
$460.
As many of you are aware, there are few (if any) regular consumers who
have written a "personal review" on the Sig Trailside. In my
research, I came across many people in the newsgroups who had asked
others for their thoughts and observations but I don't remember coming
across too many people who obliged. My Web searches came up with only
one professional review, and if memory servers me, the parting words
of the author were "I want one." All that said, I finally made my
decision to go with the Trailside. It's a Hammerli inside, so how
could I go wrong??
That purchase ended up causing me to lose over $100 and lots of
anguish. So, it seems as though it's my purpose in life to provide
some light where there is darkness.
When I arrived at the dealer to purchase the Sig I had already studied
numerous pictures and any details on the pistol I could get my hands
on. I already knew how to field strip the thing before I bought it!
Ok, ok...I'm a mechanical engineer, I'm supposed to do stuff like
that, right? Anyhow, my first impressions of the pistol were
initially a little low, but I would not admit that to myself at the
time. I had hyped myself up to the point where I couldn't go home
without it.
It was lighter than I expected, the grips felt flimsy and cheap, and
it had a "toy" look to it. The thin, square barrel looks dinky and in
person, it does NOT look like a $450+ handgun. But, having driven
across Atlanta in crappy traffic, I wasn't about to go home empty
handed. That was mistake number one. I had read so many good things
about this pistol I figured whatever my gut was telling me must be
wrong. This thing is made by Hammerli, it's got to be good. Right?
Ok, so the grips have a cheesy, rubbery, tupperware, plastic feel, so
what. There's always Hogue or some other aftermarket manufacturer to
buy new grips from. The dealer said it was ok to dry fire. THIS IS
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! A quick glance at the owner's manual will
confirm this. The chamber had an obvious firing pin dent where others
had dry fired it. Luckily I had already done my research and I didn't
do as the dealer advised and make it any worse. If there is one good
thing I can say about this pistol, it is about the trigger. It is
awesome! Very crisp, and breaks clean. I didn't measure the pull,
but I estimated it to be in the 2.5# - 3# range.
The slide felt extremely smooth when cycled. However, the magazine is
a completely plastic piece that has a sickening grinding feel when it
slides past the magazine release as you insert it into the handle.
The 3/8" sight dovetail had a visible (and tactile) bump or wave in
it. I don't know if the dovetail was machined or cast. Maybe is was
cast and then cleaned up with some machining. Either way, it had
obvious imperfections in it. So much for mounting rings on this and
being able to remove them for cleaning and reinstalling and expecting
anything remotely close to zero.
And yes, you MUST remove anything mounted to the sight rail to field
strip this pistol. The slide ends up moving back forward towards the
muzzle to remove it. This brings me to another point, the dovetail
only extends back to the chamber (about 3/4 the total length of the
gun). If you want to use optical sights, and you want them to be rail
mounted, you won't be able to mount them any further towards your hand
than the ejection port. This may negatively affect balance being so
far forward of the handle. It definitely doesn't give you the leeway
that say, the Buck Mark 5.5 optical rail gives you. Take a close look
at a picture of the Trailside and you will see what I mean. Just
something to think about.
Oh yeah, the grips are held on with a single black machine screw that
starts in the right hand grip and threads into a nut, yes a nut, that
is visible from the outside, molded into the opposite grip!
Unbelievable for a $460 piece of hardware. I would expect better
quality from a pellet gun at Wal-Mart. No sh*t! I kept reminding
myself of why I bought this thing. But it's gonna shoot really good,
and looks won't matter...
With the preliminary examination out of the way, I headed over to the
range to see what it could do. Yes, as I had read, it was a tack
driver. I ran all kinds of ammo through it and the CCI mini mags
seemed to do the best. CCI stingers or ANY high velocity rounds are
hated by this pistol. Talk about accuracy going to hell! But, even
brand new, I didn't have one hang up. I shot Eley Practice, Federal
Gold Medal Ultra Match, and anything else I could get my hands on that
day, some cheap, some expensive. It was strange, the little Sig
seemed to like the mini mags the best (as far as accuracy was
concerned). So far so good I guess.
After about 175 rounds, on this first outing, and after a clip reload,
I reached up for the slide release button. Uh oh, it had broken off.
I looked around on the floor and found the missing piece. It was
cracked (actually a void) when it was cast and the repeated recoil
finally made the atoms let go. I could tell because the blueing had
seeped into the crack and turned a portion of the fracture blue, on
the interior of the part. A close examination revealed that it was a
cheap, horribly made, die cast part, probably from China.
The slide still locked back on the last round, but it was a pain
operating the little "nub" to release it. In this state it was
impossible to lock the slide back without using an empty magazine.
This is where the path to hell begins and I realize this thing is a
total piece of CRAP. I continued to shoot the rest of my ammo and
ended up with about 300 rounds through it. Although, I have to admit,
it didn't jam, not even once.
The following Monday a quick call to Sig Arms gets me a friendly
technician on the phone who immediately sends me a replacement slide
latch. He didn't ask any questions or want serial number info, he
just got my address and that was it. I went home that day feeling
good because of the excellent service I received from Sig Arms. The
new slide latch arrived later that week and I was anxious to install
it. I had a Millett red dot sight on the way and I wanted my pistol
operational before it got here.
The slide lock is attached with a #10 torx screw with the head of the
screw inside the hollow handle and nestled in a countersunk hole. The
tip of the screw protrudes, unthreaded, from the inside of the handle
frame to the outside and screws into the slide latch. Up to this
point I hadn't really examined how all this was assembled, but I was
soon to be educated.
As I inserted the torx driver through the access hole in the opposite
side of the frame and started turning, I realized the screw was
"locked" to the slide latch. As I turned harder, I saw that the tip
of the screw had been peened or pressed into a flat mushroom shape to
lock it onto the outside face of the slide latch. (The slide latch
screw hole goes all the way through the body of the latch). It was so
flat it looked like a rivet. I continued to turn until the screw tip
reformed and/or shaved itself off to the point where I could back it
out. Great, I thought. This ought to be joyous putting this back
together. I have never seen a firearm put together so cheaply in my
life! And I wondered why Sig insisted on sending me a new screw along
with the new latch. Now I knew. I can't remember the last time I saw
an "irreversible process" used to assemble a firearm. Have these guys
ever heard of drifting a pin? They must have, because the rest of it
was held together with pins like a normal, well made, firearm should
be.
When I reassembled the new latch, the new screw extended out past the
slide latch nearly 1/8". This screw serves as the pivot point for the
slide latch, an axle if you will. It's tip *must* be fixed to the
slide latch or it will eventually back out and the latch will fall
off. The only way to flatten this 1/8" screw tip is to use either a
press or peen it over with a hammer and punch. Of course the opposite
side must be supported (head of the screw) so no forces are
transmitted to the frame. After an hour or so making up a jig to hold
this in the proper position, I began to precisely pound on my $460
pistol in my kitchen floor. After 30 minutes or so, I wasn't making a
whole lot of progress. I had only succeeded in flattening 25% of the
end of the screw. It was at this point I wasn't feeling so brave any
more and decided I had better find a gunsmith. One missed stroke of
the hammer would shatter my brand new pistol. At least a gunsmith has
insurance!
After talking with several gunsmiths in the area and visiting two, I
was advised that I should return it to the factory for repair. The
gunsmith's fears were the same as mine. One slip and the whole gun
gets smashed to smithereens.
Dammit, this is starting to get old. Calling gunsmiths, driving
around with the oily frame of my brand new, Sig Arms, Hammerli made,
$460, super accurate, gotta have a gunsmith to work on it, everybody
thinks it is a great pistol in the floorboard was getting to me.
I got home and called Sig. Interestingly enough, I got the same
technician who sent me the replacement latch and screw. I tried to
explain what was wrong and he said "no, you shouldn't have to peen
that over" like I was crazy or an idiot. Uhhh, IT CAME FROM THE
FACTORY LIKE THAT! I continued to explain and he said, "just use
loc-tite then." Feeling a little frustrated, I told him I would feel
better if it was put together as the factory had intended it and asked
how long it would take to send it back and get it repaired. He said 4
weeks. After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I said I would look at
other options before I was sending my new gun away for 4 weeks
(probably longer).
Back to square one. Following Sig's suggestion, I tried putting a
little blue loc-tite on the tip of the screw and put everything back
together. After adjusting the clearance of the screw (backed off
1/8th turn from tight) and letting the loc-tite start to cure, I
noticed how far out past the slide latch the screw tip now protruded.
"Hmmmmm," I wondered, it looks like that screw tip is going to hit the
left grip once I put it back on. Sure enough, when I checked to see
if the grips would fit, the screw tip stuck out far enough to keep the
grip from going back flush to the frame. Plus the added friction of
the grip on the screw tip kept the slide latch from moving freely.
Actually, if squeezed tight enough, it would prevent the slide latch
from moving at all. This was the closest I had ever come to picking
up a $460 piece of equipment and launching it through the window. I'm
serious, I had it in my hand and almost threw it against the wall. I
was so disgusted with this thing I couldn't see straight. To beat it
all, Sig told me this would work!!
Now I'm really worked up into a lather! To hell with this. I get my
jig back out, grabbed my hammer, and with new-found confidence started
pounding the piss out of the screw tip. I stopped once it had folded
over and made contact with the slide catch. Any more might have
started transmitting the blows into the latch instead of the screw
tip. It was now close to factory spec, but still a little loose, so I
grabbed some JB weld and packed it around the flattened screw tip.
After making the JB look nice (almost looked like the factory did it)
I set everything aside to cure. After the epoxy set up and I felt
like it was a solid repair, I put it back together with every
intention of selling it. I was done with it. If that damn slide
latch broke again, I was NOT going through this again to repair it.
Considering that it was a cheap die cast part, it was highly likely
that it WOULD break again. So, Sig (or Hammerli, or
who-the-hell-ever) chose the weakest part of the pistol to use the
most irreversible and end-user unfriendly manufacturing techniques on.
Two weeks old and here I am getting ready to sell it.
Well, finally I found a dealer willing to work with me. I ended up
getting a Browning Buck Mark Field at a $100 loss on the trade. When
I was offered a price smack dab in between the high and low value of
the now-used Trailside I tripped all over myself trying to give it
away. Done deal, goodbye Sig Trailside P.O.S. That's probably why
they call it a Trailside...because that's where you find horse crap,
by the Trailside.
There is NO comparison on build quality between the Browning and the
Trailside. I detail stripped my new Buck Mark and it is unreal how
much better made it is. It is quality through and through. The Buck
Mark looks and feels like a $400 pistol. Even my girlfriend said
something to that effect. She said the Browning looked beefier, more
like a "real" gun. I will admit though, the Trailside has a sweet
trigger, I know I've said it before, but it is nice. Unfortunately,
slightly better than the Browning. I can't explain the difference
with words, but that's one good check mark I can give the little Sig.
That's about it! Otherwise, it has the build quality of a $200 or
less pistol. It is NOT worth anywhere near what dealers are asking
for it. I think it is built like junk.
The Browning shoots as good, if not better because it has more mass
and is easier to hold on target (for me at least). I fell into the
line of thinking that the Sig had some magical technology that allowed
it to shoot more accurately than the others. It's trigger helps, yes,
but the rest of it is NO different than the Buck Mark or Ruger. Maybe
there is some special machining done to the rifling in the barrel, I
don't know. Whatever it is, it isn't visible to the eye.
I personally recommend staying away from the Trailside. I wish
somebody had written a (damn near a document) post like the one I am
writing because I probably would have stayed away from the Trailside.
Please beware!
If you're still reading and haven't fallen asleep, thanks for reading
this far. I will not respond to flames. This is my personal opinion,
and my opinion only. You make your own choices. I only wish to
describe from an engineer's point of view that I feel that this Sig
Trailside is not a quality product. Yes, it may shoot accurately,
but so do the other pistols in this price class. I don' see what
makes the Sig any better than the others. Yes, it has a buttery
smooth trigger, but that's about the only good thing I can say about
it. There's no "Hammerli technology" or whatever marketing BS is
spouted over at Sigarms.com that makes it any more accurate. I sure
as hell couldn't find it.
Good luck in your search for a quality .22 pistol. I found mine, and
its called a Browning Buck Mark Field 5.5. Peace out...
BL
[Remove the zero's from my e-mail address to reply via e-mail]
Teddie
My Ruger MkII is Ok, but not of target quality. Don't know about the Sig.
If you can find an older and GOOD Hi-Standard I would suggest you try one. I
am fortunate to have two that were built in the sixties, complete with
barrel weights and target grips. From a rest either of these pistols easily
outperform all my other 22 pistols insofar as grouping is concerned.
The old Hi-Standards are getting more difficult to find and are now selling
from $450-600 range, but if you can get a good deal on one, go for it.
fletch
with the 6" barrel for over a month but nobody here had one. A few days ago
I finally decided to "settle" for a Browning Buckmark. Got the 5.5 Target
model for about $425. Took it out today for the first time and I love the
gun. Fired maybe 200 rds with no problems at all (std velocity and
hyper-velocity). The wood grips fit in my hand just right, the weight is
great, sights are nice, shoots great, etc. My only complaint is that with
the wood grips I need to use my other hand to release the magazine (and I
have long fingers). All in all tho, I'm very satisfied with this gun.
After hearing your tale of woe I'm sure glad I wound up with the BuckMark
instead of the Trailside.
"Brent" <lewisb...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:t73m4vofutgfaqnf1...@4ax.com...
Luca
wrote:
> *** Warning, this is long! ****
>
> Hello all. I was recently in the market for a nice .22 target pistol
> to shoot instead of my expen$ive to operate .40, 9mm, and .357
> pistols. After a lot of careful research in the newsgroups as well as
> on the Web, I came across the Sig Trailside. I had narrowed my
> choices down to either a Ruger MK II, Browning Buck Mark 5.5 Field or
> the Sig Trailside. My main criteria were reasonable price (under
> $500), accurate, quality manufacturing, and locally available
> (Atlanta, GA). I ended up finding the 6" barrel Trailside without the
> competition grips at a local dealer and made the purchase for around
> $460.
> [clip]
I am no engineer, and there is no way I can go in the amount of detail you
went. But I had the same gun, and lost the same amount of money after a
slightly longer period. It was flimsy, cheapy as you said. Now I have
bought the conversion kit for my CZ85, and I love it, because it's a great
gun and I get to practice with the same gun I use for 9mm shooting. No fan
of the Sig's anymore, I am afraid.
I have a question though: any experiences around regarding the Sig Academy?
I am interested in a course, but before committing I'd like to have some
first hand accounts.
Thanks
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Brent
my whole post.
Brent
my red dot mounts on the weaver rail, I can field/detail strip it for
cleaning and I don't disturb the sight. Very nice.
Yea, the magazine release is a bit tough to reach with the walnut
grips. Luckily I have long fingers and can usually manage to drop the
magazine one-handed.
My only real complaint is how dirty the inside of the pistol gets when
fired a lot. If you look closely, you'll notice that there is a "free
path" for the crud to go past the breech face and into the firing
pin/hammer area (inside the hollow slide). No huge deal, but that's
not a super easy area to clean.
I'm keeping mine for a while!! Glad to hear you are happy with your
pistol as well. Happy and safe shooting!
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 05:41:44 GMT, "fletch" <flet...@excite.com>
wrote:
Brent
They are a bit proud of them (price) but still a damn good firearm.
The problem is that crappy assed little .22 Trailside. I still can't
get over what a piece of JUNK it is. My initial reaction over that
whole incident was that I would *never* consider Sig for any
firearm...never. Since I've calmed down and accepted things, I
realize their strengths are in the bigger bore pistols.
I have no experience or advice regarding the Sig Academy. I wish I
could help there...
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:49:37 GMT, Luca <loosedu...@attbi.com>
wrote:
SWC
"Brent" <lewis...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:6lua5vs2tg911ijkp...@4ax.com...
Good choice, Brent. I also own two very nice older Hi-Standards with the
target grips, weights, etc. I was lucky enough to even get the original
boxes they shipped in. I wrapped the boxes in ziplock bags to preserve them,
and I shoot the pistols regularly. Neither of my MkII's can hold a candle to
them insofar as accuracy is concerned. In fact, the Mk II's are a bit of a
disappointment and I find them a hassle to reassemble after I clean them.
(that darned lever on the grip frame is a doozie...)
sa...@the.home
wrote:
> *** Warning, this is long! ****
snip
Do you Know what you could have done to eliminate all those
problems ? I purchased a Colt Combat Commander in 1954 and
have never regretted it, I have a .22 caliber conversion kit from
Ciener that works beautifully and has never malfunctioned with
any ammunition I have tried in It. It shoots better than I can, I had
a friend in my local Police Dept that is a firearms instructor try it.
He put two magazines (20 Rds) into the 10 ring at 15yds.
I also have a 9mm conversion kit that works the same way but it is
kinda touchy in the ammunition I use federal for the 9mm and mostly
reloads for the .45.
bro...@kc.rr.com
wrote:
> *** Warning, this is long! ****
bro...@kc.rr.com
wrote:
> *** Warning, this is long! ****
sa...@the.home
wrote:
> *** Warning, this is long! ****
sa...@the.home
wrote:
> *** Warning, this is long! ****
thebr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
> *** Warning, this is long! ****