Speed: LWB vs SWB
Robert Siegel
rides an Aero a LOT and his concerns about the Bacchetta design reflect mine
EXACTLY. IMHO, his comments apply to all two-big-wheel (26/26) recumbents,
although less to the Vision R-65 than to the Aero/Corsa.
These shortcomings, as he observes, are far less applicable to the Lightning
P-38 and Bacchetta Giro designs, which have a 700c or 26 inch rear wheel and
a 20 inch front wheel.
For me, the GRR design remains the most stable, best-handling recumbent.
GRRs are not as fast as the 26/26 designs but for most non-roadies, with a
fairing they are "fast enough".
It remains to be seen if the new Freddy Markham/Calfee all-carbon,
under-26-pound LWB Stiletto changes minds about choosing a SWB or LWB
recumbent for seriously fast riders. I believe the Stiletto may do just that.
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
---- Original Message -----
From: "Jude T. McGloin" <dor...@crosslink.com>
Handling the Strada in traffic can at times be a bit intimidating. I have
over 5K combo STRADA/AERO and still can find some starts and stops in
traffic where a hill is involved dicey. Comparing a Giro in these
situations to a Strada is like comparing apples and oranges. There is a big
BB height difference. The Giro is more docile.
--
Gator Bob Siegel
EZ Biker :-)
my Aero arrives, at Bike Spot. I'm VERY Dialed in (And LOVE and won't be
parting with) my GRR Ti, BUT just want to really give a SWB, sub 23 lb bike
a try. I also want to ride a bike without the use of a fairing too. Although
I've tried my GRR Ti with out the fairing and it seemed lacking. It just
works better with a fairing)
So once my Aero arrives, I'll be posting some feedback on it, vs. my GRR Ti.
The High Front BB will be an immediate challenge, as I'm at least a 5+ year
front (Easy Racer) LOW BB kind of cyclist.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
"Robert Siegel" <bobs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Gcd_a.96257$3o3.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
joeg
have yet to get it to weigh under 24 lbs. on any of the bikeshop scales I've
tried. That's after replacing with a lighter fork and lighter wheels. Of
course, maybe the shops I frequent just have scales that weigh a little
heavy. I see quotes for roadbikes in the 16 lb. range. My
Record-equipped Colnago C40 weighs 18 lbs with Spinergy Xaero wheels, so
take that as a baseline.
It's pretty daggonned light. If it were much lighter I wouldn't feel safe
on it - so I have no complaints - no need to lighten it any further.
I have a Fold Rush, a Gold Rush, and an Aero. The Aero will be a little
faster, but it won't replace your Gold Rush. I think the Gold Rush is
pretty close to being the perfect bike. Don't get me wrong, the Aero is
wonderful, and will make you feel like your legs are 10 years younger,
but....well, you already know what I mean about the Gold Rush, because you
have one.
But the Aero sure has the raw speed.
"EZ Biker :-)" <ezb...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:HSh_a.132253$YN5.89367@sccrnsc01...
Robert Siegel
ride with roadies. It'll take a month before you feel at one in any SWB two
big wheel design, though. I truly loved the one-with-my-bike feel of my
P-38 and its climbing speed ... but in the end I decided I simply prefer the
TiGRR's control, handling and comfort.
I wonder if you actually will go back to the Ti GRR. My personal
experience is I ride what I like best ... and my other bikes seem to gather
dust.
"EZ Biker :-)" <ezb...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:HSh_a.132253$YN5.89367@sccrnsc01...
Zach Kaplan Cycles
pedals weighs 10.5 kg (23 lbs. 2 oz.). The claimed weight for a stock
Aero is 22 lbs. but that would be for a standard size one. I'm using
some lighter parts than stock such as a Reynolds fork, SRAM PC-89R
hollow pin chain and lighter version of the FSA crankset but am also
using some heavier parts than stock like HED Jet 559mm wheels with
27mm actual width Schwalbe Stelvio tyres. I think if I put very
lightweight (but less aero) 571mm wheels on with 23mm tyres the weight
would drop down to about 21.5 lbs. It seems like there are plenty of
ways the Aero could be made lighter such as carbon fibre seat stays
and a one piece carbon fibre steering riser-handlebar. Still I climb
faster on it than any of my other recumbents and it makes the
difference between getting passed by certain people on climbs on club
rides or passing them. I also have a Gold Rush. I always run mine with
the body sock fairing and the Aero is slightly slower than it on level
ground and descents but the climbing advantage of the Aero more than
makes up for that as I ride in very hilly terrain so a large
percentage of my riding time is spent climbing. The two bikes
complement each other nicely. Last Saturday I did a 135 km club ride
with 1370 metres of climbing on my Gold Rush with a 25.6 km/h average
rolling speed. The following day I rode the Aero on a 98 km club ride
withh 1025 metres climbing and had a 29 km/h average speed.
Zach Kaplan
"joeg" <cloredon...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:<3rm_a.103$%_4.4...@news.uswest.net>...
stratrider
decided that I had to buy a high racer and ride it alot before making
a final judgement on that style of bike. While I am having fun with
this bike, and while it is FAST, it is a real adjustment for me coming
from a 99 Stratus. The Strada is exteme. The bb is very high and the
head forward position is awkward. Conversely, there is something very
natural about the riding position, stability, and handling of a lwb
low bb bike, particularly the GRR. Weeks before I committed to the
Strada, I test rode a GRR. I needed no adjustment period. It just
fit! I loved it! Yet with a desire to satisfy my curiosity about
high racers and a desire to save $$$, I went with the Strada. And yes
it is a blast! But as I look forward (with no money at this time), I
don't see an Aero. I see a GRR in my future. It's my destiny.
Jim Reilly
Reading, PA
cbb
to be very easy to ride. They are probably more natural than even an
UR. However to me they felt slow, and I suspected I would not be
comfortable sitting that upright on a seat for a fast paced ride. I
found that I perfered bikes that really laid back. The more the
better. Once you start getting < 35 degrees on the seat you need to
start lowering the seat to allow an easy reach of the ground. So I
ended up with a Baron (~20 degree seat angle and 12" seat height).
However this year I am commuting in an urban area where I don't feel
safe on such a low vehicle. So I wanted a higher seat but I still feel
faster on a laid back high BB bike so now I have a high racer.
I think everyones circumstances are different so the best bike is
probably different. I guess that is why there are so many different
styles of bikes. Someone said they expected highracers to go away
except for a few people but I doubt it. As I see it nearly every
recumbent design that was successful at one time is still being sold
and evolved. We just keep adding different types for different
markets.
Craig
jre...@enter.net (stratrider) wrote in message news:<e4b0c94.03081...@posting.google.com>...
Edward Dolan
> ...I think everyones circumstances are different so the best bike is
> probably different. I guess that is why there are so many different
> styles of bikes. Someone said they expected highracers to go away
> except for a few people but I doubt it. As I see it nearly every
> recumbent design that was successful at one time is still being sold
> and evolved. We just keep adding different types for different
> markets.
There are recumbents for the performance oriented riders
(wanna-go-fast) and then there are recumbents for the rest of us. I
think the recumbent for the rest of us will eventually turn out to be
a CLWB OSS Low BB. The BikeE showed the way as well as the EZ-1 but
there is going to be a much better such bike coming along one of these
days. Ease of riding (handling) is critical. If there is much of a
learning curve you can forget about it. The high BB SWB will be
relegated to strictly performance cyclists. Most of the rest of us
ride recumbents for fun and exercise and we want to be comfy while
were doing it and we do not want to experience any handling
difficulties. CLWB does it all better than any other type of recumbent
except for the speed thing. Thus Spake Zarathustra!
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
mike s
anyone put together those kinds of averages. Then I realized they
were kilometers per hour, not miles, and I didn't feel like such a
slug. Whew.
I think an overlooked element of this speed argument, whether LWB or
SWB, is the comfort factor. I am faster on a bike I am comfortable
on. My wife loves her Gold Rush. I think they are okay. She does
not like SWBs. I think my Barcroft Virginia is perfect. Whatever
floats your boat. I agree that some bikes are inherently faster due
to design than others. A Ti Aero is going to be faster than a BikeE.
But if I am uncomfortable on a bike I will underperform and therefore
not attain the speed potential of the bike. So LWB, SWB, CLWB, OSS,
USS, whatever feels right for the rider is the thing. And with so
many choices, its like being in a candy store. And, let us not
forget, there is a large segment out there where riding, not speed, is
the thing. There's a recumbent out there for all of us. Finding it
is half the fun.
Mike S. (not a LWB fan)
St. Louis, Mo.
Barcroft Virginia
Barcroft Columbia
RANS Rocket
bentcruiser
> I think everyones circumstances are different so the best bike is
> probably different. I guess that is why there are so many different
> styles of bikes. Someone said they expected highracers to go away except
> for a few people but I doubt it. As I see it nearly every recumbent
> design that was successful at one time is still being sold and evolved.
> We just keep adding different types for different markets.
Craig,
You hit the nail on the head for this one. Everyone's ideal bike is not
the same. It is very subjective. While I love SWB and LWB versions of my
Canto, I do not seem to agree with the test rides that I have taken on a
Strada or a Volae. The high BB does not seem to do anything for me.
But I love my Burley and feel very dialed into it. The only thing I want
to add to my stable right now is a tadpole trike.
--
Derek,
Burley Canto
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com
Tom Sherman
mike s wrote:
> ...
> Barcroft Virginia
> Barcroft Columbia
> RANS Rocket
Mike,
Did you trade in the Tiger for a Rocket?
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
Don
dial in a CLWB with improved geometry, better components, and lighter
weight. It may not be the fastest design but it will be much improved
over current offerings and will climb well also. It will be designed
as a bike for serious riders, just maybe not the most competitive. It
will also be shorter than a school bus.
I look forward to the day when your prediction comes true. Don
edo...@iw.net (Edward Dolan) wrote in message news:<7d49e514.03081...@posting.google.com>...
mike s
Yes I did Tom. I found out that my lower back couldn't handle an all
mesh seat. I need a seat with a solid seat pan. I have ridden with
mesh backs for years (RANS) but the give of the seat bottom with the
shock cord on the Tiger played havoc with my back problem. I tried
tightening it up, substituting cords, etc., but my back just wasn't
compatible with it. So, the Tiger had to go. I got a Rocket for my
commuting and have had no problem with the back. The RANS seat may be
heavy, it may be prone to slide, it may not dry out quickly after a
rain, but it sure feels like home to my disks. So, between the RANS
seat on the Rocket and the tandem, and the M5 seat I put on (okay, Ben
Fox put on) the Virginia, my back is a happy camper.
Mike S.
EZ Biker :-)
when I moved onto a new bike. I WON'T MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN! I'm keeping
my GRR Ti and will maintain it and ride it along with the Aero. I think the
Aero is that NEED FOR RAW SPEED, the key word here being RAW.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
"Robert Siegel" <bobs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:D3s_a.99237$0v4.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
EZ Biker :-)
a Vision R-40, R-45 and P-38. On my Easy Racer I just PLOP down and ride;
but with a SWB, I feel like I'm climbing into a cockpit and having to
arrange myself and then get underway, in a more focused or attentive way. I
think this time though, I'll be sure and give myself plenty of ride and
experience time on my Aero. There's something about Bacchetta Bikes, that
just makes it FUN to ride them.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
"stratrider" <jre...@enter.net> wrote in message
news:e4b0c94.03081...@posting.google.com...
EZ Biker :-)
the potential of a good performance bike. Throw in a Ti version and you
could probably have something that could run with various other bike groups;
(SWB's and LWB's) not to mention being WAY COOL Looking TOO.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
"Don" <diz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bf9a2acd.03081...@posting.google.com...
EZ Biker :-)
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
"joeg" <cloredon...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:3rm_a.103$%_4.4...@news.uswest.net...>
cbb
on a lowracer than on the Aero (unless you climb lots most likely you
will be) you will feel faster laid back that far flying inches off the
ground.
Hiracers are great platforms, I have a Strada for commuting, but I
feel that lowracers work better for going fast. If your looking for a
bike to climb lots of hills, hang with a DF paceline or even hilly
brevets the highracer works very well.
"EZ Biker :-\)" <ezb...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<qV4%a.116198$cF.32599@rwcrnsc53>...
GeoB
> to design than others.
I have a SWB R40. I ride with another old coot who has an expensive
DF, a Kestrel, and rides *really fast* compared to me. He completed
the Climb to Kaiser (14,500' total climb, 160 miles) 1.5 years after
he got his bike. He rode 5000 miles that year.
When we ride together I expect him to be faster than me. I am getting
faster but not as soon as I had expected. I am still a newbie I
guess, 1900 total 'bent miles.
<The Question>
The real question I have been wondering about is... WHY can he pedal
only once in a while, and coast, while I am stroking away constantly?
I hear that blame Campy freewheel chattering lots more than I hear/see
him pedaling. What exactly makes the difference? Lots of things, I
know. But this is a giant difference! Is it tires? Do taller tire
really make a big difference? Higher pressure? Is it better bearings?
Maybe the aerodynamic CF frame! :-)
JoeG
I'd love to replace the RANS flutes on the back with some carbon or titanium
stays - but I'm finding that I keep having to fiddle with the positioning
adjustment - I'm the same way on upright bikes - over the course of a season
my seat height will vary a centimeter or so - don't know why this is.
Anyway, the Aero is a rockin' bike for sure, and the GRR also. Hard to
imagine that it gets much better than this.
"Zach Kaplan Cycles" <zaka...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1a7c0e50.0308...@posting.google.com...
EZ Biker :-)
speed, BUT TOO LOW for the in city streets here in South Florida, that I
ride. Nearly got run over 4+ times, on one particular ride, going down A1A.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
"cbb" <cbma...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:aa193f37.03081...@posting.google.com...
Don
wheels. The BB is also--I am planning for my old age. I know that
when I sat on a GRR it felt so right. Of course, when I rode it, it
felt so (wrong)long and ornery. I opted for a Giro instead. Someday
some company (maybe a brand new company) will make a quality mid or
CLB that can rival a GRR in performance but be shorter than a school
bus.
"EZ Biker :-\)" <ezb...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<8U4%a.19810$2x....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>...
EZ Biker :-)
BUT... Well I don't want to insult any Church Of Rans Parishioners out
there.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (GRR Ti and SOON, Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
"Don" <diz...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bf9a2acd.03081...@posting.google.com...
Mark Leuck
"EZ Biker :-)" <ezb...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xbv%a.32311$2x....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
I own an Optima Baron but the only time I don't feel like someone can
possibly not see me is in a crowded parking lot, haven't had a problem yet
on city streets, if anything it appears to be the opposite, people slow down
and look...and look...
:)
rocketman58
with 20/20
wheels. The BB is also--I am planning for my old age. I know that
when I sat on a GRR it felt so right. Of course, when I rode it, it
felt so (wrong)long and ornery. I opted for a Giro instead. Someday
some company (maybe a brand new company) will make a quality mid or
CLB that can rival a GRR in performance but be shorter than a school
You want a low seat and low bb on a CLWB? We this might work if you
make the bike for someone under 5' tall. If you are average height,
in order to have a low seat and low bb, you will have to have the
wheel base of a "school bus".
So you opted for a Giro? Huh? ... Well, the seat is no lower than a
Tailwind, and the BB is way higher! ... I don't get it.
As far as a CLWB performance bent: If you want a fast 20/26 Tailwind,
it will need a longer wheelbase or a higher seat in order to
accomidate the 26" rear wheel. The longer wheelbase will make it into
a LWB. The higher seat will be bad for performance. The only
advantage to such a bike would be if you like the seat/BB ratio.
RANS already has a couple of high performance LWB 20/26" recumbents.
If you want a low BB, get the Stratus. If you want a higher BB, get
the V-2. I would imagine that either would be faster than a 20/26
Tailwind. [Note, I have owned both a Tailwind and a Stratus, and have
ridden a V-2 a few timed. Results - Tailwind: Fast. - Stratus:
Faster. - V-2: Fastest.]
As an additional note, the new RANS LWB bents may no longer feel so
"long" with the new bar options.
Tom Blum
Machine Clone dialed in, I wasn't comfortable on the road. The low, laid
back position made startup and looking back difficult for me.
More power to those who are not bothered by this. The higher position of a
highracer cures these problems. Plus, the easy rolling nature of those large
700C wheels is real nice. I think I'm a convert. (
But, being fickle, I MAY just jump on the next fad to come through also.
Parts are stacking up for a 20/20 FWD low racer. I'm thinking full
streamlining. For trail only use.
I will travel 20 miles in an hour before I die.
--
Miles of Smiles,
Tom Blum
Winter Haven, Florida
Homebuilts: SWB
Tour Easy Clone
Speed Machine Clone
High Racer Clone
www.gate.net/~teblum
harryo
> I'm with the desenters on the low racer thing. Even after I had my Speed
> Machine Clone dialed in, I wasn't comfortable on the road. The low, laid
> back position made startup and looking back difficult for me.
>
> More power to those who are not bothered by this. The higher position of a
> highracer cures these problems. Plus, the easy rolling nature of those large
> 700C wheels is real nice. I think I'm a convert. (
I don't quite understand. What made you uncomfortable, on the road,
on the Speed Machine clone. Was it the overall height of the bike,
which is higher that a true lowracer, or was it the seatin position
which you said made startup and looking back difficult?
I ride a lowracer, and have ridden a highracer, and personally feel
stopping and startup is easier on the lowracer. Admittedly, with more
experience on a highracer, I would probably be more comfortable
starting and stopping but I find dropping one leg to the ground on a
lowracer, or just putting down one hand, to be much easier than
dropping one leg, twice the distance, on a highracer. Same with
starting. If just dropping a hand and staying clipped in, it is quite
easy to start pedalling a lowracer from a stop. If starting from a
dropped leg, I find it easier to raise the leg the shorter distance to
clip in than the highracer requires.
As far as looking back is concerned, I can see no difference. A
highracer, using the same seat, with a similar seating angle as a
lowracer, offers no better rear viewing than on a lowracer, that I
could discern. I didn't feel that the higher overall height of the
highracer was enough to offer any better rear view. The angle of the
head and neck is what makes turning one's head rearwaed difficult and
that is virtually the same on both styles of bikes.
Being comfortable with overall height is a different matter. Some
people will never feel comfortable with the low height of a lowracer,
though I do find it interesting that some I have spoken with are
uncomfortable about the height of a lowracer, but have no problem with
a trike, which can be just as low. Obviously, there are other
perceptions influencing these people. Also, the roads and traffic one
normally rides can have an influence. Still, I believe it mainly
comes down to one's individual perception of how visible and
therefore, how safe, they are on a lowracer.
Harry Jiles
Tom Blum
Those who love them just don't understand those who don't.
I don't hate the bike, it's just wasn't ideal for me. It also wasn't faster
than the tour easy, for some combination of factors that I never figured
out.
It sits too high to do the 'just drop a hand" trick. The low overall stance
results in low moment of inertia. I have a bit of trouble getting started.
On the high racer, I can easily swing forward and put my feet down. This
lets me look around 'normally'. the higher position results in slower
tipping (higher moment of inertia).
I'm not saying I "just couldn't" ride the thing. I'm saying that since it
wasn't faster than my tour easy clone, why bother.
harryo
> Harryo,
>
> Those who love them just don't understand those who don't.
>
> I don't hate the bike, it's just wasn't ideal for me. It also wasn't faster
> than the tour easy, for some combination of factors that I never figured
> out.
>
> It sits too high to do the 'just drop a hand" trick. The low overall stance
> results in low moment of inertia. I have a bit of trouble getting started.
>
> On the high racer, I can easily swing forward and put my feet down. This
> lets me look around 'normally'. the higher position results in slower
> tipping (higher moment of inertia).
>
> I'm not saying I "just couldn't" ride the thing. I'm saying that since it
> wasn't faster than my tour easy clone, why bother.
I do understand that some people just can not be comfortable or mre
efficient on a lowracer. They certainly are not for everyone. I
agree that balance on a lower bike is touchier than a higher bike but
I think almost anyone can get used to it with enough riding time. I
have heard a couple of others speak of disapponintment with the speed
of a Speedmachine. Since I have only ridden one a few blocks, I can't
really comment on it but I am much faster on my Baron than any other
bent I have ridden and as said before, I find the balance for starting
and stopping, the rear vision and overall efficiency better than a
highracer.
Again, my riding time on a highracer is very limited, only a couple of
miles on a Strada, so my opinion could change somewhat with more
riding time on a highracer. My own opinion is that on good roads, and
level to rolling ground, a lowracer has the greatest speed potential.
However, I am certainly intrigued by the highracers and their
potential as a fast, efficient bent for riding all roads, on all types
of terrain and all traffic conditions. In my limited riding time on
the Strada, I also did not care for the tweener(?) handlebars but that
might be a perception that would change with more riding time, too.
Anyone have a highracer they want to loan me for a month so I can see
if I might feel differently after riding some extended milage? I
promise to post my conclusions here for all to see.
Harry Jiles
Al Kubeluis
I'll swap my Corsa for your Baron for a month if we live within 200
miles or so. I live in Maryland.
My Corsa is standard size. You need to be between about 5'6'' and 6'6''
to fit it. I'm 5'11'' with a 44'' xseam. What size person will your Baron
accommodate?
I agree that you need to ride a bike for a while (500 miles and up)
before you can conclude anything about likes and dislikes. Bike swapping for
a while can be a good way to thoroughly test a bike out.
~~~al.kubeluis..md.usa.earth.sun.milkyway.virgo.universe..corsa~~~
"harryo" <har...@dtnspeed.net> wrote in message
Tom Sherman
Al Kubeluis wrote:
>
> Harry,
> I'll swap my Corsa for your Baron for a month if we live within 200
> miles or so. I live in Maryland.
> My Corsa is standard size. You need to be between about 5'6'' and 6'6''
> to fit it. I'm 5'11'' with a 44'' xseam. What size person will your Baron
Harry lives in the "Great Illinois Corn Desert", as documented in RCN
#68 (March/April 2002, pp. 20-23).
harryo
> Harry,
> I'll swap my Corsa for your Baron for a month if we live within 200
> miles or so. I live in Maryland.
> My Corsa is standard size. You need to be between about 5'6'' and 6'6''
> to fit it. I'm 5'11'' with a 44'' xseam. What size person will your Baron
> accommodate?
> I agree that you need to ride a bike for a while (500 miles and up)
> before you can conclude anything about likes and dislikes. Bike swapping for
> a while can be a good way to thoroughly test a bike out.
I appreciate the offer, Al, and I would take you up on it but alas, I
live in Central Illinois, a wee bit more than 200 miles. One really
does have to put some extended mileage on a bike before they can
really formulate a good opinion about it. I agree that bike swapping
is a great way to do this without spending a bunch of time and money
buying and selling different bikes.
Harry