M5 Lowracer - First Impressions
B. Sanders
few times. Here are random, honest first impressions:
This thing really is gorgeous! What a beatifully simple, clean design! The
monoblade fork and special aero hub are a work of art. My M5 has matching
deep section Sumo alloy wheels that look very fast.
It's kinda tricky to install the special M5 stem, because you have to remove
the front wheel to get to the 6mm deeply-recessed cinch bolt. Of course,
you can't align the stem with the wheel, because the wheel is removed.
Alignment is an iterative process - but it works.
The seat is very comfortable. The bike feels very solid. It's a bit
heavier than I thought, and much bigger than it looks in photos. This is a
very long bike (57" wheelbase). It's weird having the handlebars at
eye-level, and even weirder being so laid-back. Dismounting is not easy.
Flexibility and willingness to look a little foolish seems a prerequisite
for riding an M5 Lowracer (at least at first).
This thing is squirrelly as heck. Very hard to get started in the reclined
position. I finally ditched the clipless and just mounted some platform
pedals (no clips) to use until I get accustomed to the bike.
First few rides, the bike felt completely out of control. Twitchiest bike
I've ever ridden, hands down. Zero castering action, wants to throw me off
of it. I finally decided to ride it in an upright position (holding myself
upright by pulling on the handlebars and using abs). That worked! Once I
got the feel of the bike's steering, etc in the upright position, and picked
up a little speed, I eased back into the seat. This is going to take a LOT
of getting used to! After a dozen short rides, it's feeling less twitchy;
but still not inspiring confidence. The lack of castering (trail) spooks
me - the bike has a mind of its own.
I *hate* the chain interference with front wheel. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I didn't realize how little steering freedom there is (not nearly enough).
There must be a better way to do this. I'm already trying to figure out how
to put chain pulleys over the front wheel. There is a threaded pulley mount
brazed-on with a single pulley attached (it came that way from factory).
Shouldn't be too tough to add a 2nd pulley, I guess.
The chain kept coming loose from the chain guides, smacking the back of the
seat, and derailling on the crank. Apparently the retainers on the chain
guide rollers have to be adjusted precisely. This doesn't seem like a good
design - I'm very surprised how easily the chain comes loose. I keep
wondering what I would do at 35+ MPH if the chain came loose.
I put my foot down instinctively during a (thankfully) slow-ish run when the
bike got real squirrelly and I almost went down. My foot dragged backward
and to the side, wrenching my knee badly. It hurts; but not too bad - not
swollen or anything.
Cars cannot see this bike. It's very dangerous to ride anywhere near
traffic. The extremely limited steering makes it near impossible to
navigate on normal streets (you have to cross 2 lanes to complete a
90-degree turn).
I can see that this bike will be fast if I ever get up the nerve and find a
suitable place to really let 'er rip. Wondering if that day will ever come.
Overall impressions: Race-only design, not at all practical. Bred for track
racing events and road courses with shallow curves. Very difficult to get
started. Very, very twitchy, gets a little more stable at higher speeds.
Not for the faint of heart or those who lack flexibility. Beautiful bike,
though.
Barry
Al Kubeluis
Thanks for the candid report.
What are you going to use M5 for?
I wonder what other M5 riders have to say.
--
~ Al Kubeluis ~ Rans V2 ~ Vision R40 uss ~
~ Almost Saint Michaels ~ Maryland ~ USA ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> wrote in message
news:9r6c8.84024$AV5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Michael Nelson
> Overall impressions: Race-only design, not at all practical. Bred for track
> racing events and road courses with shallow curves. Very difficult to get
> started. Very, very twitchy, gets a little more stable at higher speeds.
> Not for the faint of heart or those who lack flexibility. Beautiful bike,
> though.
For *me* the HPV Speedmachine I had was tricky. Tricky enough and difficult
enough to mount and dismount that I sold it after less than a month. And
it's nowhere near as extreme as the M5.
I don't believe I'd even want to try something as radical as the M5, I'd
dump it for sure (never did drop the Speedmachine, but came close).
Thanks for the unbiased, honest first impression though, I enjoyed reading it!
Michael
--
"# chmod a+x /bin/laden"
Michael Nelson San Francisco, CA
Skip Sherrod
easy, but living with them can sometimes be hard.
Good luck in getting things sorted out. Would like to hear how this goes
for you.
Skip
Robert Siegel
it is a racing bike, PERIOD.
I tried the Challenge Jester at Ed Deaton's Fools Crow and then I tried the
Challenge Taifun. The Jester has the same no-right-turn chain routing PAST
the front wheel and the Taifun is a modified low racer, with a slightly
higher seat angle and a chain that passes conventionally OVER the front
wheel. I bought a slightly-used Taifun.
I went from feeling too-squirreley, too-scary, hard-to-start-from-rest to
loving the bike, the rider's position, the speed, the sense of being one
with the machine. I loved the Taifun low racer when I finally got the hang
of it.
However, in the end I sold it ... but only because I don't have the time or
opportunity to just race the bike along safe trails or bike lanes. Also, I
never got really comfortable riding it in traffic. So a low racer would
have had to be a special-purpose "extra" bike for me.
--
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
"B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> wrote in message
news:9r6c8.84024$AV5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Robert Siegel
wonderful.
The Taifun low racer, although wonderful, was not THAT wonderful. ;-)
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
"Skip Sherrod" <skip-s...@home.com> wrote in message
news:uT8c8.29321$td.82...@news2.nash1.tn.home.com...
> I suspect lowracers are like beautiful wome ... living with them can
sometimes be hard.
Al Kubeluis
You guys and Bentrideronline review of M5 convinced me I'm not a
lowracer guy especially on streets where I do all of my riding.
I did a short test ride of Barcroft prototype lowracer (Oregon) and
found it easy to start, ride, turn, stop. (But it took me 5 minutes to
figure out how to get out of it, as I did not want to lay it down and roll
off.)
I wonder if not being used to lowracers was part of Fast Freddy's recent
crashes on Varna.
--
~ Al Kubeluis ~ Rans V2 ~ Vision R40 uss ~
~ Almost Saint Michaels ~ Maryland ~ USA ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
news:VV8c8.29692$Nv5.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Robert Siegel
just lay in the street and roll over. Sort of.
On the other hand, we have one Gainesville Cycling Club member who is an
total biking brute. He rides an older yellow Festina low racer at
incredible speeds and has done for multiple centuries on it. He often leads
a pack of Roadies whose tongues hang out when he puts his mind to serious
pedaling. I am not exaggerating a tiny bit.
--
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
"Al Kubeluis" <kube...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3c712809$0$94...@dingus.crosslink.net...
derek
Here is a tip for getting off the bike easily.
1) Stop completely and put both feet down.
2) Turn the handlebars 90-100 degrees to the left to open up the cockpit and
make the front wheel perpindicular to the bike.
3) Use your left hand to apply the brake on the right handlebar which is
closest to you. You may have to underhand grip the lever.
4) Hold the base of the stem with your right hand and use your right arm to
pull yourself up to standing position. You may have to skootch a bit with
your rear as you do this. If you have a big belly, do it in two stages;
first sit upright and then go to standing.
5) Keep the brake on. Step over the seat with your right leg until both legs
are on the left side of the bike. Carefully release the brake and return the
handlebars to normal position. Voila! you are done!
If you are having handling problems put a set of fatter tires on the bike
like Vred S-Licks or size 37 Primo Comets until handling becomes more
natural. Cut a triangle out of coroplast and spray paint it flourescent
orange and attach it with a block of foam and velcro behind the seat top for
visibility. Always wear visibility colors when riding a lowracer on the
street, your first collision with a car will probably be your last. Good
luck!
Cheers,
Derek
"B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> wrote in message
news:9r6c8.84024$AV5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Bill Patterson
This is a consequence of buying a bike with zero trail. Low racers need
more trail than higher bikes.
"B. Sanders" wrote:
>
> This thing is squirrelly as heck. Very hard to get started in the reclined
> position. I finally ditched the clipless and just mounted some platform
> pedals (no clips) to use until I get accustomed to the bike.
>
> First few rides, the bike felt completely out of control. Twitchiest bike
> I've ever ridden, hands down. Zero castering action, wants to throw me off
> of it.
--
Bill Patterson
mailto:
wpat...@calpoly.edu
http://www.calpoly.edu/~wpatters/
"The Lords of the Chainring" Bike/motorcycle design text.
Third edition now available
http://www.calpoly.edu/~wpatters/lords.html
Our Human Powered Helicopter
will/may be on exhibit at the Dulles
Smithsonian Air and Space annex starting 2003
http://www.calpoly.edu/~wpatters/helo.html
The Experimental Aircraft Assoc. Listed
three non government aviation firsts for the last
20 years. The Voyager, The da Vinci III and the Brietling
Orbiter.
Dan Kluckhuhn
"B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> wrote in message
news:9r6c8.84024$AV5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
a
> few times. Here are random, honest first impressions:
I tried to send this to you directly, but it got bounced back, so I hope the
group doesn't mind the lengthy reply:
Sorry to hear of your M5 experience. I thought I had made a mistake after I
got mine too. It took me about 500 miles to get comfortable with it, but I
love it now. It's my all time favorite bike. I wouldn't like the low chain
routing, though. That's only for racing where you don't have to make any
sharp turns. The high chain position is fine except it's a bit of a dirty
ride unless you use wax on the chain. The chain tends to throw a bit of gunk
on your chest. I've found that wax pretty much eliminates it though. You do
need chain tubes for leg protection, though. The tubes run from the top
pulley down to the underseat pulley.
My chain has never come off in 2000 miles. I think you have an adjustment
problem or a missing retainer on the under-seat pulley. My retainer did come
loose once, but not since I put loctite on it.
The steering is weird at first. But I don't have any problem with going 3
mph up hills now. You do have to keep a hand on the bars, but most 'bents
require that anyhow. I've found that the best way for beginners is to look
straight ahead, give a good push with the crank, get the other foot up right
away and hold on to the handlebars. It's tempting to put your hand down, but
you will almost always fall if you do while moving.
At first, I fell a few times as I wasn't balanced properly. This bike is
good for developing balance.We are always shifting our weight and the bike
will do scary things if you hit a bump and you are off balance. It just
requires practice.
I would keep the clipless pedals. Too easy to drop a foot without them.
I always wear brightly colored clothes and try to avoid roads with more than
one lane in each direction as you can be hidden by cars next to you.
Visibility is not as bad as it seems. I am more visible than upright riders
with dark clothes. Most drivers avoid large dogs on the road, while others
will not see a semi. I try to ride with other bikes for a little cover when
I can, though.
To get out of the bike, simply keep one of the brakes on and put your other
hand on the seat back and push up. I can also get off with no hands if I
stop quickly and stand up at the same time. My momentum carries me forward
and up. I don't do that very often, though, because it's easy to make a fool
of yourself if you mis-judge slightly.
Dan Kluckhuhn
Al Kubeluis
Why do lowracers need more trail?
Conversely, why do some lack trail?
How do you give one trail?
What is trail?
--
~ Al Kubeluis ~ Rans V2 ~ Vision R40 uss ~
~ Almost Saint Michaels ~ Maryland ~ USA ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
news:3C714C51...@gte.net...
a&b
Do you know a link where trail is explained *with illustrations*?
thanks,
bill g
Jude T. McGloin
I really wonder...I guess I'll just have to wait for a Ti BACHETTA...
Jude
Jim
read glowing reviews of lowracers then think, Hey maybe I should
think about upgrading to one of those beauties. Your post helped
bring me back down to earth. I still love the looks and speed of
these fine machines, but they are definitely not for me and my
type of riding (public roads for fitness and fun). Still want to upgrade
from my Rocket sometime this year but it will be to something a
little more sedate.
Thanks,
Jim
Derek
draws a picture for you with expanations;
http://traylorfwd.home.mindspring.com/geometry.html
You must have missed it. It is a good explanation by someone who knows his
stuff.
Cheers,
Derek
"a&b" <peda...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C718D9B...@bellsouth.net...
william m fenton
when i started (i crashed 6 times in a row) but now (2 months later) i think
it is the best money i ever spent on sports equipment. i would say keep
riding it for a few months before you give up on it. one thing i had to do
was adjust the boom out 2 inches.
"B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> wrote in message
news:9r6c8.84024$AV5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Bill Patterson
neglected by many designers at the beginning of the recumbent movement.
Now we have a whole generation of riders that have acclimated to twitchy
bikes and like them.
Low bikes need more trail because they don't generate as much friction
force on the wheels when a steering correction is made. This means that
they lack force "feedback" through the controls.
Try this web site.
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/trail.asp
For more theory, try my web site below. Or buy my book. We have designed
or modified more than 250 bikes using aircraft handling qualities
theory.
Bruce Griffin
Thanks for the candid report on the M5. The M5, like the Challenge
Jester, takes some time to get used to and learn how to ride and
handle. Its part of a learning curve with low racers and the M5.
I stuck with my new Jester which I received last July and I now find
myself absolutely loving this machine and I have no desire to ride any
of my other bikes (Ti-Rush or Vision). The front chain interference
almost disappears except for low speed tight turns. The handling took
time to learn, but after a while it became second nature. I just had
to stick with it and put the time in.
In my opinion, there is nothing as much fun and as fast as a lowracer,
particulary an M5 or a Jester. My Jester is 99.9% a street bike which
I ride everywhere and it fits like a glove. I can't imagine riding any
other type of bike which could be as much fun.
I did install a head rest which I found helpful.
Good luck.
Bruce G.
Bill Patterson <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message news:<3C714C51...@gte.net>...
Al Kubeluis
--
~ Al Kubeluis ~ Rans V2 ~ Vision R40 uss ~
~ Almost Saint Michaels ~ Maryland ~ USA ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Bill Patterson" <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message
a&b
Thanks. I did miss it. And I searched all over Harris Cyclery and
Analytic Cycling and a bunch of other sites today at work trying to find
something with a pic.
bill g
a&b
Thanks for links.
Do you know a source for trail numbers for stock bents? I'd like to
compare them vs my experience riding the bikes.
Quick, everybody go out and measure your trail and post it ;-)
bill g
Bill Patterson
It's easy to calculate.
trail = (front wheel radius * cosine of the head tube angle - fork
offset)/sine of the head tube angle.
-front wheel radius is measured from the axle to the center of the tire
casing.
-head tube angle is measured from the horizontal
-fork offset is the distance of the axle measured forward from the
steering axis and perpendicular to it.
rorschandt
> I don't think that trail is available.
>
> It's easy to calculate.
>
> trail = (front wheel radius * cosine of the head tube angle - fork
> offset)/sine of the head tube angle
...easy, yes, provided one knows what a cosine is...
Bill Patterson
Sorry about the cosine,
Maybe you could just run a straight line down through the steer tube and
measure how far it is in front of the tire contact point. That is trail.
Most safety bikes have a trail from 1.5 to 1.75 inches. IHMO a low racer
should be at about 3.5 inches.
At the University, we have built several variable geometry bikes. We
started in 1984 and worked sporadically until I started developing the
theory in 1995.
We were able to make bikes very difficult to ride with 2 variables.
Trail and tiller. Either or both of these should be investigated.
I can't make hide nor hair out of tiller. But some folks swear that just
adjusting tiller can make a bike handle. I don't have equations for it.
My book and the handling quality theory primarily addresses trail. Every
student in my class, builds a bike that has never been seen before. Some
of them actually paid attention and built bikes that followed the
theory.
I learned a lot and all the bikes. If the designers followed the theory,
their bikes handled well. We use geometry (head tube angle and fork
offset) to control responsiveness, control spring (force feedback) and
fork flop.
rorschandt wrote:
>
> ...easy, yes, provided one knows what a cosine is...
--
B. Sanders
news:W3hc8.5271$Ap6.3...@news2.east.cox.net...
It seems that your thoughts mirror my own.
Though I really think you should try a lowracer for yourself before making a
final decision, I can tell you that if I had test ridden the M5, I would not
have bought it. It was a calculated risk, since I was willing to put up
with some of its quirks; but I also knew that the worst case would involve
selling to to the next guy, possibly at a small loss. A bike this beautiful
and fast should sell easily. There are plenty of cyclists out there who
want a racing-only bike. I thought I was one of them, and was not unaware
of what I might be getting into.
As it stands, there is a good chance that I'll be selling the M5 before
long. What will I buy to replace it? That's a tough question. There are
so many 'bents that I haven't tried yet, and so many that look promising. I
may just buy a Vision R40; because I can get one fairly cheap, and they're a
blast to ride. I prefer under-seat steering (USS), which limits the field
pretty quick. On my short list are the Optima Dragon, M5 28/20 USS,
Flevobike 50/50 and the good old Vision R40 and R45 USS/SWB bikes. I'd love
to find a good deal on a fast trike; but may end up restoring and modifying
my old tadpole trike for better handling and more speed. Shouldn't be too
terribly difficult. If price were no object, I'd buy a Windcheetah and call
it a day. I've toyed with the idea of selling off a bunch of my bikes and
just buying a Windcheetah; but wow, are they every pricey!!
Or, I could just go the cheap route and keep my classic Ryan Vanguard
USS/LWB. It's a very nice bike. I do want something a little quicker,
though.
Glad that my comments helped you navigate the forest of decisions in
choosing a recumbent. I still say that you should give a lowracer a try,
just so you can say you tried it. That's an important part of the decision
process, IMHO.
Barry
Marci Taylor
> My M5 Lowracer arrived from Fool's Crow. I've had a chance to try it out a
> few times. Here are random, honest first impressions:
>
> This thing really is gorgeous! What a beatifully simple, clean design! The
> monoblade fork and special aero hub are a work of art. My M5 has matching
> deep section Sumo alloy wheels that look very fast.
>
> It's kinda tricky to install the special M5 stem, because you have to remove
> the front wheel to get to the 6mm deeply-recessed cinch bolt. Of course,
> you can't align the stem with the wheel, because the wheel is removed.
> Alignment is an iterative process - but it works.
>
> The seat is very comfortable. The bike feels very solid. It's a bit
> heavier than I thought, and much bigger than it looks in photos. This is a
> very long bike (57" wheelbase). It's weird having the handlebars at
> eye-level, and even weirder being so laid-back. Dismounting is not easy.
> Flexibility and willingness to look a little foolish seems a prerequisite
> for riding an M5 Lowracer (at least at first).
>
> position. I finally ditched the clipless and just mounted some platform
> pedals (no clips) to use until I get accustomed to the bike.
>
> First few rides, the bike felt completely out of control. Twitchiest bike
> I've ever ridden, hands down. Zero castering action, wants to throw me off
Hi Barry:
Too bad you couldn't have test ridden one of the M5's before
purchasing. I have always been drawn to the more exotic looking
recumbents but over time I have realized that they are just not
comfortable for me or practical. I know all too many people who just
like you, bought one of these georgeous bikes only to sell them
quickly. Extreme is just that....extreme and difficult whether it's
an upright or a recumbent. After owning many recumbents, I have
returned to the more "usable" types. I currently ride the Gold Rush
replica and a tailwind. And, someday I will buy another Barcroft
Virginia GT...that's about as extreme as it gets for me....!!! I hope
it all works out for you.
Marci Taylor
Mikael Seierup
"Bill Patterson" <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message news:3C71C5EC...@gte.net...
> Most safety bikes have a trail from 1.5 to 1.75 inches. IHMO a low racer
> should be at about 3.5 inches.
Evita quasilow has 3.35 inches. Seems stable to me :-)
M.
Jan Van Dyck
In Belgium we just finished our indoorchampionship this sunday: 5 races on a
kartingcircuit.It means close racing, sharp cornering (up to 180 degrees!),
accelarating, adrenaline.... Some people do this on a lowracer (m5, baron,
jester), with the chain next to the frontwheel. And they do get into the
final. They can do anything on their bikes. I've seen people riding M5
lowracers hands off (don't try this at home, this year)I'm sure you can do
it as well. It willl take some time but keep practising.In Europe dozens of
riders use their lowracers for commuting. You have to get used to it and
accept that cars might not see you.
Jan Van Dyck
Hpv Belgium
"B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> schreef in bericht
news:9r6c8.84024$AV5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
andy...@beeb.net
On 19-Feb-2002, "B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> wrote:
> I've toyed with the idea of selling off a bunch of my bikes and
> just buying a Windcheetah; but wow, are they every pricey!!
$1800 in kit form now! OK you've got to get busy with the glue and stick it
together yourself and you'll need a few other bike bits (gears, rims etc)
but it might be possible to get your hands on a Windcheetah for less than
you think.
Cheers,
Andy
ps. The kits are not being advertised at the moment (I think they are
struggling to keep up with the demand generated by word of mouth) but if you
contact the guys at AVD they can fill you in
(http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/).
--
Contact details available on my homepage
Tom Blum
On Bill Patterson's advice, I modified the fork to 3 or 4 inches of
trail, with very good results. You still don't ride no hands, but things are
reasonably stable.
Miles of Smiles,
Tom
Dave Larrington
> I *hate* the chain interference with front wheel.
> Stupid, stupid, stupid. I didn't realize how little
> steering freedom there is (not nearly enough).
> There must be a better way to do this
Mike Burrows' neighbourhood postman Vaughan Reed had the same problem with
his race Baron. Apparently a week after taking delivery he was on the
blower to the dealer to order the extra drive-side idler :-)
I've got Cosimo's chain routed past the fork, and there it will stay!
Though I haven't had him out on the road yet...
Dave Larrington - http://www.crosswinds.net/~legslarry/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
Daniel Payne
On 18-Feb-2002, "rorschandt" <rorsc...@home.com> wrote:
> > It's easy to calculate.
> >
> > trail = (front wheel radius * cosine of the head tube angle - fork
> > offset)/sine of the head tube angle
>
> ...easy, yes, provided one knows what a cosine is...
I think i needed on of these for a loan on my
first recumbent.... Sorry...
Dan [ being silly agn ] Payne
Dan Kluckhuhn
wheel. I guess it was a little more with the stock 451 wheel. I think the
low speed handling is a little better with the 406 and I didn't notice any
difference at high speed when I switched.
Dan Kluckhuhn
"Bill Patterson" <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:3C71C5EC...@gte.net...
rotofool
> This handling problem is not a general low racer problem.
>
> This is a consequence of buying a bike with zero trail. Low racers need
> more trail than higher bikes.
Bill,
The M5 has lots of trail. The problem is the fork flop (tendency of
the front wheel to turn in response to the weight on the headset),
which overcomes the benefit of trail at lower speeds. My Rotator
Pursuit has the same tendency.
Len Thunberg
B. Sanders
"Dan Kluckhuhn" <hele...@att.net> wrote in message
news:gjvc8.12249$BR3.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Just measured the trail on my M5. It is about 3 1/2". That's with the 406
> wheel. I guess it was a little more with the stock 451 wheel. I think the
> low speed handling is a little better with the 406 and I didn't notice any
> difference at high speed when I switched.
Thanks, Dan. I was just going to measure the trail on my M5; but now I
don't need to. So, I was wrong when I implied that the M5 Low Racer has
zero trail. Of course, whether or not ~3.5" is the correct amount remains
to be seen. It does seem to be in the ballpark.
Bill Patterson also pointed out:
> > We were able to make bikes very difficult to ride with 2 variables.
> > Trail and tiller. Either or both of these should be investigated.
> >
> > I can't make hide nor hair out of tiller. But some folks swear that just
> > adjusting tiller can make a bike handle. I don't have equations for it.
One of my earliest observations of the M5 was that the tiller steering felt
counterintuitive - it wanted to zig when I thought it would zag. Keeping it
upright seemed like a constant, mentally exhausting battle. Also, despite
the presence of a decent amount of fork trail, the bike is definitely
squirrelly. I'm going to assume that some of this is rider incompetence;
but stable it ain't.
I was just reading about the long distance speed records held by the M5 Low
Racer, and wondering if I could ever feel comfortable enough riding this
thing for hours and hours. Would I become fatigued, make one little wrong
flick of the tiller and dump the bike at high speed? That's part of what I
mean when I say "twitchy" - tiny incorrect input from the rider may
destabilize the bike irrecoverably.
During some of my test rides, I deliberately shook the tiller back and forth
at small, variable amplitudes to get a feel for the oscillation frequency of
the bike (with me riding it), and to see how much leeway I had for incorrect
steering input at various speeds. I was surprised that there was a decent
amount of stability there - not nearly as much as my StumpJumper hardtail or
my Ryan Vanguard; but still what I thought was a reasonable amount of
stability. Naturally, when I was sitting upright, thus raising the centre
of gravity, the bike was much more stable. It was while laying back fully
against the low-slung seat that the steering and balance is at its least
stable.
I've been assured by several different M5 afficionados that this instability
tends to go away over time, and with higher speeds; presumably due to
increased rider competence and gyroscopic stability, respectively. I have
no doubt that this is true.
Barry
Michael Nelson
> It was while laying back fully against the low-slung seat that the
> steering and balance is at its least stable.
I've noticed on the 'bents I've owned that the more laid-back the seat is,
the less stable the bike feels, at least until you get used to it.
My feeling is that we do a lot of the balancing with body english,
unconcious as it may be. When you are laid way back, you have more weight
on your back and less on your butt, and because of that your upper body is
more locked into place on the seatback. That inhibits your ability to use
your upper body as much for body english to affect the balance, and leads
you more into having to balance the thing more through steering inputs.
Combine the inability to use upper body body english with the unfamiliar
feeling of a bike with some tiller effect when you aren't yet used to it,
and you end up with a twitchy, unstable feeling bike.
But as you get used to the steering, you learn to make the proper small
movements you'd have otherwise done with body english, and the bike starts
feeling stable over time.
Make sense? It sure fits with *my* experiences.
Michael
--
"# chmod a+x /bin/laden"
Michael Nelson San Francisco, CA
Al Kubeluis
My experience also re degree of lay-back. Logic make sense also.
--
~ Al Kubeluis ~ Rans V2 ~ Vision R40 uss ~
~ Almost Saint Michaels ~ Maryland ~ USA ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bruce Griffin
2 more comments for the M5 initial reaction thread from a Jester
owner:
My Jester was set up with flip-it handlebars which pivot at the stem
and I suspect that this makes the getting on and off the bike easy for
me. It also cleaned up the forward line of sight. I got my Jester
from Fools Crow and Ed put the flip-it bars on with-out my request - a
great move, thanks Ed!
I was also able to adjust the seat on my Jester by making 2 pieces of
short aluminum stock and raising the rear seat support up. I agree
that the more I raised the seat, the bike seemingly became more
stable. Now, however, I have reverted to the original setting after
becoming fully comfortable with the machine.
If you decide to sell you M5, please advise me as to color and
components. I hope you stick with a bit longer however. I almost gave
up on mine, but I was advised and always felt that if I just kept
trying, I would eventually learn to love it, and I did. There also
great on windy days.
Bruce
"B. Sanders" <ba...@bsanders.net> wrote in message news:<oFBc8.89802$fK1.4225526@rwcrnsc54>...
william m fenton
body english.
"Michael Nelson" <micha...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:slrna75urh.j...@seahunt.dyndns.org...
Bruce Shannahoff
Last summer I had the pleasure of meeting John "Tots" Totman on the
California Aids Ride. He was riding a M5 Lowracer. He seemed to have
no problems riding it on the 570 mile ride from San Francisco to Los
Angeles. In fact, he had a trumpet on which he would play
inspirational music, to the delight of the other riders, while riding
the M5. He also was of a vertical stature that caused him to have
crank/wheel overlap and had even mastered that in the context of many
long, steep, low speed climbs. He also said the bike was very stable
at high speeds; he had some downhills on the ride in excess of 50 mph.
Stick with the M5 and you'll master it.
BTW, last October I got an Aerocycle (a highracer) that has the same
seating position as a lowracer. The M5 carbon seat is mounted at about
26 degrees from horizontal and the BB is 8 inches above the seat
bottom. It took me many miles to feel comfortable in that position,
but now with over 2000 miles on the bike it feels completely natural
and and comfortable beyond any expectations. The more laid back
position distributes the body weight over a greater area and creates a
comfort that can't be matched by a more upright seating position.
Best of luck,
Bruce Shannahoff
Los Angeles CA
harryo
> "Jim" <jimf111...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:W3hc8.5271$Ap6.3...@news2.east.cox.net...
> > Thanks for the reality check Barry. I sometimes see pictures and
> > read glowing reviews of lowracers then think, Hey maybe I should
> > think about upgrading to one of those beauties. Your post helped
> > bring me back down to earth. I still love the looks and speed of
> > these fine machines, but they are definitely not for me and my
> > type of riding (public roads for fitness and fun). Still want to upgrade
> > from my Rocket sometime this year but it will be to something a
> > little more sedate.
>
> It seems that your thoughts mirror my own.
>
> Though I really think you should try a lowracer for yourself before making a
> final decision, I can tell you that if I had test ridden the M5, I would not
> have bought it. It was a calculated risk, since I was willing to put up
> with some of its quirks; but I also knew that the worst case would involve
> selling to to the next guy, possibly at a small loss. A bike this beautiful
While I am sorry that your experience with the M5 has not yet been
very positive, I want to add that one shouldn't draw hasty conclusions
from it. Yes, I agree that you should have taken a test ride before
ordering and I also agree that that a lowracer may not be suitable for
everyone. However, my experience with my Optima Baron has not at all
been similar. I purchased the Baron after riding my first bent, a
V-Rex, for one year. I didn't test ride one but did have the test
ride guarantee from Yellowbike.
While my first ride on the Baron was certainly not as stable as I was
on the V-Rex, itg was not uncomfortably at all. I experienced some
low speed wobble but never felt in fear of crashing and even dropped
it once. I was immediately faster than on the V-Rex and found every
ride to be exhilerating. There was a learning curve before I was
straight-line stable and it took about 700-800 miles before I was able
to sustain maximum speeds, especially on hills, but I was comfortably
and confidently riding the Baron within 200 miles.
I rode it 3300 miles last year, on rural roads and even on city
streets and never felt unsafe, unseen or insecure. At this time, I
would never wish to give up my Baron for a more conventional, or
sedate, bent. While I admit that my experience with a lowracer may not
be the norm, I would just caution that your's may not be either and
everyone should draw their own conclusions from their own experience,
not from those of others. If one is seriously considering a lowracer,
they should test ride one, or more, from a dealer or another owner.
Harry Jiles
B. Sanders
"Michael Nelson" <micha...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:slrna75urh.j...@seahunt.dyndns.org...
You've got it exactly right.
B
B. Sanders
news:7e559e29.0202...@posting.google.com...
Well said, Harry. I agree: Everyone should test ride as many bikes as they
can, including low racers, and draw their own conclusions. There is such a
wide-open field of recubments from which to choose, and such a huge
variation in ride characteristics, that test riding is the only sensible way
to decide. I wish I had taken my own advice; but then again, I also wish
that I had a good recumbent dealer in my area. I'm planning a trip to St.
Charles, IL in the near future to test some bikes at The Bike Rack there.
Should be very informative. There are also a few serious 'bent riders (with
fantastic collections) around here, and we need to trade some test rides
real soon.
Barry
harryo
> Should be very informative. There are also a few serious 'bent riders (with
> fantastic collections) around here, and we need to trade some test rides
> real soon.
If we can ever get together on one of the CIRC rides, you can
certainly try my Baron. Also, as far as lowracers, or psudo lowracers
go, Rev. Bruce has a Sunset, Hal Barnhart has a new Speedmachine and
Tom Sherman, if he is able to make it, has a Wishbone RT 20/20.
Harry Jiles
Thomas Sherman
You could ride over to let Barry have a Baron test ride, as it is only
about 90 miles round trip. :-)
The requirement for test riding my Wishbone is having an X-seam
somewhere around 45 inches (114 cm), as the seat adjustment is limited,
time consuming, and aggravating.
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
1999 Blue RANS Tailwind/63 -- 2000 Red RANS Rocket -- 2001 Reynolds
Wishbone Lowracer
Gabriel DeVault
designed and built by Mat Weaver and was previously known as the
Virtual Edge. My 2 cents...
harryo
> Harry,
>
> You could ride over to let Barry have a Baron test ride, as it is only
> about 90 miles round trip. :-)
>
> The requirement for test riding my Wishbone is having an X-seam
> somewhere around 45 inches (114 cm), as the seat adjustment is limited,
> time consuming, and aggravating.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
> 1999 Blue RANS Tailwind/63 -- 2000 Red RANS Rocket -- 2001 Reynolds
> Wishbone Lowracer
Yeah, Tom, and it would only take a half a day to do so!! My X-seam
is also just over 45" but while it does take some time and effort to
move the boom on a Baron, and the amount it can be moved without
shortening or lengthening the chain is limited, it is not a major job.
Actually, Barry, if you really do want to try my Baron, or V-Rex for
that matter, email me and we will set something up. I would love to
get together and swap bikes for a ride, if you are willing, and give
your M5 a go.
Harry Jiles
Thomas Sherman
Just remember to bring a pedal wrench - I at least find clipless pedals
a requirement on a high BB bike. Incompatible pedals and cleats make
things worse.
If you ride hard, 90 miles should only take about 5 hours. A couple of
the north-side Chicagoland lowracer maniacs ;-) could come real close to
4 hours for the distance.
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
1999 Blue RANS Tailwind/63 -- 2000 Red RANS Rocket -- 2001 Reynolds
Wishbone Lowracer