Are flags effective...
Charles Lee
flags were effective. The going arguement was that a flag
was too small and it's orientation wrong to be visable to a
motorist.
My wife and I just finished a 650 mile bike trip down the
Oregon and Northern California coast using BOB trailers, and
we used the flags that came with them. The flag is a bright
yellow triangular piece of vinyl (about 1 foot long) mounted
at the end of a fiberglass pole (about 4 feet in length).
Watching my wife ride in front, I made some observations on
the effectiveness of the flag.
Is the flag effective? Yes - but to varying degrees and
depending on many factors. The bicyclist body as it cuts
through the air, leaves a wake behind it (turbulent air).
This "wake" in turn is influenced by other factors such as
passing cars, trucks - or the bicyclist passing stationary
objects such as buildings, trees, or parked cars. The size
of the bicyclist body will also product a different size
wake (larger body - larger wake). All in all, this is
something you cannot reproduce in a wind tunnel - there are
too many varying real life factors!
But here are some notes I made while riding on the trip...
0-4 mph Flag very still, unless bicyclist is pumping hard
- then the movement of the bike causes the flag pole to
weave sideways and wave the flag back and forth. If gentle
riding is used - flag is not very effective. If cyclist is
pumping hard (going up a steep hill), flag is very
effective.
5-12 mph Flag starts to flutter back and forth sideways.
Oscillations tend to vary from 1 to 4 "flutters" per second
(I can't think of a better word for now). This means the
flag is shifting side to side - and from the moterist view -
appears and disappears several times a second. Very
effective here.
13-25 mph Oscillation of the flag increases - I had a hard
time counting at this point, but it seemed to reach about 10
oscillations per second - however the flag does not go very
far side to side - it stays pointed more directly
backwards. Somewhat effective here.
26-40 mph Flag pole now starts bending downwards, reducing
it's visibility. Not very effective - though it's violent
movements can be surprising at times.
Headwinds and tailwinds - just add or subtract from the
speed.
Crosswinds...now here was an interesting topic. A
quartering crosswind (45 degrees) would make the flag weave
as much as 2 feet from side to side! Extremely effective -
almost as if you had somebody waving the flag on top of the
trailer. Must be how the crosswind interracts with the
body's air flow wake. Cars gave us wide bearth - especially
if the crosswind was blowing from the side of the road
towards the traffic. A perpendicular crosswind (90 degrees)
didn't quite have the same effect - but it was still
noticable.
Bicyclist at top of hill (motorist downhill looking up) -
Flag seems higher and more visable.
Bicyclist at bottom of hill (motorist uphill looking down) -
Flag is not very visable.
Background color seems to play a role here. If cyclist is
wearing dark clothes - the bright yellow color seems to
stand out more. Dark trees/forest (or other background)
also makes the flag more visable. Foggy days seems to
produce a small reduction in visability.
In review - I think the flag is worth carrying. There were
times it was very striking in it's presence - something that
cannot be taken for granted (any way to make yourself more
visable seems worth it). It doesn't seem to work in all
conditions, but where it does work, it does so very well.
One thought...perhaps it's possible to make a flag yellow on
one side, and a bright (reflective) red on the other? This
might make it more visable in all (or most) conditions.
Hope this information helps the discussion.
- Charles Lee
Alan Z.
This weekend, the my flag made its way off of the pole and was lost on the
trip.
I felt odd riding with just the pole (I told folk it was a CB antenna <s>)
And now I'm looking to replace the flag itself.... your idea of a two
colored flag seems like a great idea..
I may take it one step further... two colors on each side: One side Orange
ground with a yellow border, and on the other side yellow ground with an
orange border. I'll see what kind of material I can pick up at the crafts
supply shops.
I'm also tempted to put a spinner on it (that I picked up at a kite shop
this summer)
All in all I rather like flags.
Charles Lee wrote in message <361A2849...@calweb.com>...
Bob Cardone
>Strange that you mention flags...
>This weekend, the my flag made its way off of the pole and was lost on the
Snip
>>- Charles Lee
>
>
I bought a flag a couple of weeks ago from Hostel Shoppes. It splits
in the middle which is a feature I wanted. I went on a tour in the
outer banks of No Carolina with 17 other cyclists on my BikeE. Some of
the other wedgies had flags. I made up my mind on that tour that I
would never ride without a flag again. Cars would give the cyclists
with the flags a much wider berth than if they didn't have a flag.
This was further helped by slightly angling the flag towards the road
( bending the bracket a bit). It was the most relaxed trip I have
ever taken on roads with highway speed traffic. Every car that passed
me swung way out of my lane, or slowed way down. This was during the
300 miles of riding with the flag. I observed the wedgies with the
flags getting the same treatment . ( the tour operator provided rental
bikes with flags)
Bob Cardone
Hans-Joachim Zierke
Charles Lee schrieb:
> In review - I think the flag is worth carrying. There were
> times it was very striking in it's presence - something that
> cannot be taken for granted (any way to make yourself more
> visable seems worth it).
Forrester is right about the cyclist's inferiority complex. I suggest to
wear a safety vest, and put an orange warning light on top of your head.
Err, helmet...
> One thought...perhaps it's possible to make a flag yellow on
> one side, and a bright (reflective) red on the other? This
> might make it more visable in all (or most) conditions.
Great idea. Next year needs next year's "safety" fashion.
(Some kids around here carry these flags, too. I always wonder when it will
happen, that working brakes on kids bikes become fashionable.)
h.
Lorenzo L. Love
Charles Lee wrote:
> A few months ago there was a thread on whether or not bike
> flags were effective. The going arguement was that a flag
> was too small and it's orientation wrong to be visable to a
> motorist.
>
> My wife and I just finished a 650 mile bike trip down the
> Oregon and Northern California coast using BOB trailers, and
> we used the flags that came with them. The flag is a bright
> yellow triangular piece of vinyl (about 1 foot long) mounted
> at the end of a fiberglass pole (about 4 feet in length).
> Watching my wife ride in front, I made some observations on
> the effectiveness of the flag.
>
> Is the flag effective? Yes - but to varying degrees and
> depending on many factors. The bicyclist body as it cuts
> through the air, leaves a wake behind it (turbulent air).
> This "wake" in turn is influenced by other factors such as
> passing cars, trucks - or the bicyclist passing stationary
> objects such as buildings, trees, or parked cars. The size
> of the bicyclist body will also product a different size
> wake (larger body - larger wake). All in all, this is
> something you cannot reproduce in a wind tunnel - there are
> too many varying real life factors!
[snip]
> In review - I think the flag is worth carrying. There were
> times it was very striking in it's presence - something that
> cannot be taken for granted (any way to make yourself more
> visable seems worth it). It doesn't seem to work in all
> conditions, but where it does work, it does so very well.
>
> One thought...perhaps it's possible to make a flag yellow on
> one side, and a bright (reflective) red on the other? This
> might make it more visable in all (or most) conditions.
>
> Hope this information helps the discussion.
>
> - Charles Lee
I use a flag on my recently aquired BOB trailer too, because
it's so low and my Tour Easy plus trailer is almost 12 feet
long. But I would never put a flag on just the bike. If they
can't see me, why would they see the flag? I'm a whole lot
bigger then any flag. I think the trailer may be more important
in the cars giving you more room then the flag. Something I have
found that works better is a horizontal warning bar, with or
with out a flag. Mine is a piece of 1/2 inch outside diameter
pvc tubing, intended for a RV water system. It's stiff enough to
support itself under normal use, but will bend if hit. It
doesn't stick out far (left side only), about an inch less then
my elbow. Reflective tape wrapped around it. The key thing is a
pointy piece of plastic on the end painted silver. Cars give me
far more room with this then before I added it. There is no
logical reason for this, as it sticks out less then my arm does,
but the motorheads see the shiney point and are more concerned
about damaging their paint then they are about killing me. You
could put a flag on it, but that doesn't seem neccesary.
Lorenzo
Bob Cardone
>
>Charles Lee schrieb:
>
>> In review - I think the flag is worth carrying. There were
>> times it was very striking in it's presence - something that
>> cannot be taken for granted (any way to make yourself more
>> visable seems worth it).
>
>Forrester is right about the cyclist's inferiority complex. I suggest to
>wear a safety vest, and put an orange warning light on top of your head.
>Err, helmet...
>
>
>> One thought...perhaps it's possible to make a flag yellow on
>> one side, and a bright (reflective) red on the other? This
>> might make it more visable in all (or most) conditions.
>
>Great idea. Next year needs next year's "safety" fashion.
>
>
>
>(Some kids around here carry these flags, too. I always wonder when it will
>happen, that working brakes on kids bikes become fashionable.)
>
>h.
>
I guess when one doesn't have anything sensible to say, saying
something silly is the only alternative
Bob Cardone
Bob Cardone
>
>
>Charles Lee wrote:
>
>> A few months ago there was a thread on whether or not bike
>> flags were effective. The going arguement was that a flag
>> was too small and it's orientation wrong to be visable to a
>> motorist.
>>
>> My wife and I just finished a 650 mile bike trip down the
>> Oregon and Northern California coast using BOB trailers, and
>> we used the flags that came with them. The flag is a bright
>> yellow triangular piece of vinyl (about 1 foot long) mounted
>> at the end of a fiberglass pole (about 4 feet in length).
>> Watching my wife ride in front, I made some observations on
>> the effectiveness of the flag.
>>
>> Is the flag effective? Yes - but to varying degrees and
>> depending on many factors. The bicyclist body as it cuts
>> through the air, leaves a wake behind it (turbulent air).
>> This "wake" in turn is influenced by other factors such as
>> passing cars, trucks - or the bicyclist passing stationary
>> objects such as buildings, trees, or parked cars. The size
>> of the bicyclist body will also product a different size
>> wake (larger body - larger wake). All in all, this is
>> something you cannot reproduce in a wind tunnel - there are
>> too many varying real life factors!
>
>[snip]
>
>> In review - I think the flag is worth carrying. There were
>> times it was very striking in it's presence - something that
>> cannot be taken for granted (any way to make yourself more
>> visable seems worth it). It doesn't seem to work in all
>> conditions, but where it does work, it does so very well.
>>
>> One thought...perhaps it's possible to make a flag yellow on
>> one side, and a bright (reflective) red on the other? This
>> might make it more visable in all (or most) conditions.
>>
>> Hope this information helps the discussion.
>>
>> - Charles Lee
>
> I use a flag on my recently aquired BOB trailer too, because
>it's so low and my Tour Easy plus trailer is almost 12 feet
>long. But I would never put a flag on just the bike. If they
>can't see me, why would they see the flag? I'm a whole lot
>bigger then any flag. I think the trailer may be more important
>in the cars giving you more room then the flag. Something I have
>found that works better is a horizontal warning bar, with or
>with out a flag. Mine is a piece of 1/2 inch outside diameter
>pvc tubing, intended for a RV water system. It's stiff enough to
>support itself under normal use, but will bend if hit. It
>doesn't stick out far (left side only), about an inch less then
>my elbow. Reflective tape wrapped around it. The key thing is a
>pointy piece of plastic on the end painted silver. Cars give me
>far more room with this then before I added it. There is no
>logical reason for this, as it sticks out less then my arm does,
>but the motorheads see the shiney point and are more concerned
>about damaging their paint then they are about killing me. You
>could put a flag on it, but that doesn't seem neccesary.
>
>Lorenzo
>
>
There was a commercial product years ago that was a flag that attached
to your pike that pointed out horizontally just as you described with
a metal looking tip on it. I would ride over the Rickenbacker
Causeway in Miami during rush hour with this flag, and no cars would
even come close. ( afraid of damaging their paint). Try riding
without the flag, and they would run you off the road.
Bob Cardone
Warren Block
gadget. Rather than an electric light, there's a thing attached to the
top of one of the signs. Viewed from above, it would be roughly
triangular in cross section, but with the sides concave instead of flat.
This shape seems to catch the wind, because it's *always* spinning, even
when there doesn't seem to be any wind.
The trick is that two of the sides are painted fluorescent orange, and the
third is black, so it "flashes" as it spins. This might be an effective
attention getter on a bike, even in a small version.
Still, I don't have a flag or anything else like this. The motorists who
are a problem usually aren't that way because they haven't seen me. I
really like the porcupine approach of having something apparently sharp
sticking to the outside.
--
Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota * USA
http://extra.newsguy.com/~wblock
Charles J. Gaffen
LWB. I <would> like to know more about spinners and some of the other
methods used.
Chas
Shwackman
Hi you guys, I'm enjoying the discussion on flags....just thought i'd tell you
about mine..I use a bright yellow scarf,(about 14" square). I stitched the two
top corners together, & drape it over my head under my helmet. The result is a
"flapping yellow cloth" right at drivers eye level,(on BikeE). It must be
highly visible because I catch A-LOT of flack from all my freinds about it...
Keep ridin',..Mark Cooper,Shalimar,Florida
Lorenzo L. Love
aco...@ibm.net wrote:
> >
> > There was a commercial product years ago that was a flag that attached
> > to your pike that pointed out horizontally just as you described with
> > a metal looking tip on it. I would ride over the Rickenbacker
> > Causeway in Miami during rush hour with this flag, and no cars would
> > even come close. ( afraid of damaging their paint). Try riding
> > without the flag, and they would run you off the road.
> >
> > Bob Cardone
> >
>
> A few weeks ago I bought from Canadian Tire (a large hardware store chain
> here in Canada) one of those horizontal flags, that attaches to the rear
> rack, for $5. The flag sticks out about 10cm more than the handlebar. Since
> installing it on to my VR-40 I have noticed that vehicles give me a lot more
> room on my left side when passing. I am not sure if it is out of respect or
> just because drivers are afraid of scratching their beautiful car paint jobs.
>
> Andrew Corona
> Vancouver, BC
>
Respect has nothing to do with it. Do they respect you without the horizontal
flag? It's their paint they worry about, not killing you. These things are so
cheap to buy or make, and work so well, I'm surprized everyone doesn't have one
on their bike. I only have one on my main bike now, but I'm going to add one to
my other bikes as well, as soon as I can figure out a folding or quick removal
model for easy storage of the bikes I don't ride often.
Lorenzo
aco...@ibm.net
>
> There was a commercial product years ago that was a flag that attached
> to your pike that pointed out horizontally just as you described with
> a metal looking tip on it. I would ride over the Rickenbacker
> Causeway in Miami during rush hour with this flag, and no cars would
> even come close. ( afraid of damaging their paint). Try riding
> without the flag, and they would run you off the road.
>
> Bob Cardone
>
A few weeks ago I bought from Canadian Tire (a large hardware store chain
here in Canada) one of those horizontal flags, that attaches to the rear
rack, for $5. The flag sticks out about 10cm more than the handlebar. Since
installing it on to my VR-40 I have noticed that vehicles give me a lot more
room on my left side when passing. I am not sure if it is out of respect or
just because drivers are afraid of scratching their beautiful car paint jobs.
Andrew Corona
Vancouver, BC
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Hans-Joachim Zierke
Bob Cardone schrieb:
> I guess when one doesn't have anything sensible to say, saying
> something silly is the only alternative
I trust the specialist.
BTW, on Monday, I rode 60 kms with a big armchair on the trailer. No
visibility problems for motorists. Therefore, instead of that flag, I
suggest an armchair.
h.
--
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USA: [] local domain:
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Bob Cardone
>
>Bob Cardone schrieb:
>
>> I guess when one doesn't have anything sensible to say, saying
>> something silly is the only alternative
>
>I trust the specialist.
>
>BTW, on Monday, I rode 60 kms with a big armchair on the trailer. No
>visibility problems for motorists. Therefore, instead of that flag, I
>suggest an armchair.
>
>
>h.
Maybe you should try a Dunce Cap
Bob Cardone
fsc...@my-dejanews.com
Visibility is very important to all vehicles. I ride twisting, rolling roads.
Sight distance is often limited and fog is prevalent this time of year.
Your observations on wake confirm my own. I fly a Japanese fish kite sewn
from 1 orange flag. It has a 3" dia. mouth and flies from a cord off a short
pole. The "fish" flies in my wake. The kite's motion and color make up for
its size.
This windsock on a string took 15 minutes of hand sewing and rigging. Riding
on club rides is the only time I leave the post and flag off. The paceline's
safety negates my need for visibility.
Smile and Spin, Jus
Hans-Joachim Zierke
Bob Cardone schrieb:
> Maybe you should try a Dunce Cap
You have that wrong: It's not me who advocates helmets.
h.
Bill
Charles Lee wrote in message <361A2849...@calweb.com>...
>Is the flag effective? Yes - but to varying degrees and
>depending on many factors.
A big bright tailbox can also work well. In addition you get a good deal of
luggage space and the aerodynamics of the vehicle improves. My old bike had
a strobe that could be seen for several miles at night on the top of the box
too....
Bill
Bill
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote in message ...
>BTW, on Monday, I rode 60 kms with a big armchair on the trailer. No
>visibility problems for motorists. Therefore, instead of that flag, I
>suggest an armchair.
A Remmington 12 gauge on the rear rack seems to be pretty effective as
well.....
Bob Cardone
I was just trying to suggest something that would reflect your IQ
while you were riding your bike. <g>
Bob
Hans-Joachim Zierke
Bill schrieb:
> A Remmington 12 gauge on the rear rack seems to be pretty effective as
> well.....
At least this seems to be more on target than a flag. With very few
exceptions, and as long as you ride on the road/street unseparated, there
is no such thing as a visibility problem of cyclists. Just walk out of the
door and look. If somebody is unable to see a cyclist without help, this is
a case for serious medical treatment.
So the real problem has nothing to do with visibility.
hajo
Charles J. Gaffen
However, with the right color armchair....
Charlie Gaffen
Edison, NJ
Bill wrote in message ...
aco...@ibm.net
> >
> > A few weeks ago I bought from Canadian Tire (a large hardware store chain
> > here in Canada) one of those horizontal flags, that attaches to the rear
> > rack, for $5. The flag sticks out about 10cm more than the handlebar. Since
> > installing it on to my VR-40 I have noticed that vehicles give me a lot more
> > room on my left side when passing. I am not sure if it is out of respect or
> > just because drivers are afraid of scratching their beautiful car paint
jobs.
> >
> > Andrew Corona
> > Vancouver, BC
> >
>
> flag? It's their paint they worry about, not killing you. These things are so
> cheap to buy or make, and work so well, I'm surprized everyone doesn't have
one
> on their bike. I only have one on my main bike now, but I'm going to add one
to
> my other bikes as well, as soon as I can figure out a folding or quick removal
> model for easy storage of the bikes I don't ride often.
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
The word "respect" may not be the most appropriate one. What I meant is to
pay attention and to give consideration. We must recognize that the majority
of drivers are not into "killing" people, it would be too messy and there
would not be anybody left to write in this NG. Therefore we can assume that
the majority of drivers pay some attention to or "respect" cyclists by not
running us down.
Andrew
Lorenzo L. Love
aco...@ibm.net wrote:
They pay attention to the shiny point on the horizonal bar. They respect their
car's paint job. It's not a matter of visibility. My horizonal bar has no flag and
is only one half inch wide. It sticks out less then my arm does. There is no logical
reason for drivers to give me more clearance with the bar then without. Why do they?
Fear. Fear they will scratch their paint. With the horizonal bar, drivers slow down,
pass with care, staying well clear. Without the horizonal bar, they come much closer
and act like they don't see me. Is that respect for me as a cyclist?
Lorenzo
Bob Cardone
The most important part of the commercial product that was made in the
early 80's was the " metal looking tip". If it didn't have that,
drivers would ignore it. The danger of scratching their paint is what
caused them to give the cyclist some room. Respect, forget it. The
only thing they respect is the car they are driving and anything that
could damage it.
Bob Cardone
Mik...@aol.com
ha...@Zierke.com (Hans-Joachim Zierke) wrote:
. If somebody is unable to see a cyclist without help, this is
> a case for serious medical treatment.
Yes, but it's the CYCLIST'S medical treatment!
Derek Mark Edding
>At least this seems to be more on target than a flag. With very few
>exceptions, and as long as you ride on the road/street unseparated, there
>is no such thing as a visibility problem of cyclists. Just walk out of the
>a case for serious medical treatment.
>
>
>hajo
Your comparison with "looking out the door" is a poor one. Perhaps, if
you ran to the door down a long hallway, and the furniture were sliding
back and forth between you and the doorway...
Road conditions are vastly different from a glance out of a door. I have
been behind the wheel myself when there was harsh sunlight in my eyes,
or it was foggy and raining, and it was challenging enough to see cars,
much less bicycles.
I have also been on my bicycle and, on a couple of occasions, failed to
see a car. If I take a quick glance over my shoulder before moving left,
I've found that it's possible to see what I expect rather than what is
really there. The eye has a blind spot as well, which can hide critical
information if one doesn't look carefully, or long enough.
This is not to say that drivers don't intentionally ignore cyclists, but
being very visible is still essential.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ Derek Mark Edding ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ dr...@pagesz.net ~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~ "An end to BS on Usenet in Our Lifetimes!" ~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hans-Joachim Zierke
Derek Mark Edding schrieb:
> Road conditions are vastly different from a glance out of a door. I have
> been behind the wheel myself when there was harsh sunlight in my eyes,
> or it was foggy and raining, and it was challenging enough to see cars,
> much less bicycles.
I have earned my living as a driver for several years. I never had problems
to see a cyclist on the road, as long as he or she used normal lights in
dark or fog.
(This is different if there are bikepaths. I had a cyclist in front of the
rear wheels of 24-ton-truck when I noticed him, just half a meter from
killing him. Bikepath hidden behind trees, truck turning right at
intersection. Killing a cyclist now and then is unavoidable if there are
bikepaths.)
No, it is not the visibility. To understand the problem, philosophy might
help (was it Habermas? Uhh, university is long, long ago...). The way to
notice something can be devided into two logical steps, in German:
"Perzeption" and "Apperzeption". Now it gets difficult to translate this,
because the english "perception" might not be aequivalent usage.
"Perzeption" describes the incoming sensor data, like noise, or like the
visual appearance of something. This is the first step in noticing
something. The second step is the brains work, transforming the sensor data
into meaningful information.
There is simply no problem for cyclists in the "Perzeption" stage. There is
enough sensor data about the cyclist. The real question is, wether the
sensor data describing a cyclist is filtered as meaningful information by
the brain.
There are completely different ways to deal with this situation:
1) Make very clear that there is a cyclist. This means, for example, riding
close to the middle of narrow lanes. This means clear steady reliable
lighting in the night or in the fog.
2) Make unclear that there is a cyclist. Instead of information, provide
irritation: "there is something unusual". This means flashing lights,
flags, roadworkers vests, yellow clothing, 30 different reflectors, etc.
pp.
Logically, this approach can only work as long as the item is unusual. As
soon as the majority of cyclists has it, the effect is gone, and a new item
is needed.
hajo
Bob Cardone
>
>Derek Mark Edding schrieb:
>
>> Road conditions are vastly different from a glance out of a door. I have
>> been behind the wheel myself when there was harsh sunlight in my eyes,
>> or it was foggy and raining, and it was challenging enough to see cars,
>> much less bicycles.
>
>I have earned my living as a driver for several years. I never had problems
>to see a cyclist on the road, as long as he or she used normal lights in
>dark or fog.
>(This is different if there are bikepaths. I had a cyclist in front of the
>rear wheels of 24-ton-truck when I noticed him, just half a meter from
>killing him. Bikepath hidden behind trees, truck turning right at
>intersection. Killing a cyclist now and then is unavoidable if there are
>bikepaths.)
>
>
>
>No, it is not the visibility. To understand the problem, philosophy might
>help (was it Habermas? Uhh, university is long, long ago...). The way to
>
Much blithering snipped
I fly airplanes. An airplane in the sky is easily recognizable by
anyone of average intelligence. Some people fly along with their head
up their _ _ _ _ (rhymes with rut) . Therefore any help in making
yourself visible keeps you out of the " Fender Bender in the Sky
Group". I therefore fly with my Landing Lights on whenever I am
anywhere near a airport traffic area, even in broad daylight. Many
pilots think that this is stupid and a waste of landing light lamp
life. I happen to think that anything that one can do to minimize
risk, like wearing a seat belt, helmet, airbags, flags , landing
lights etc.. cannot do anything but help one's odd's. The airlines
happen to agree with me ( or I with them) and that is why all airline
pilots turn on their landing lights in airport traffic areas even in
broad daylight.
A fender bender with a bike and a motor vehicle will do much to ruin
one's day as a fender bender in the sky. Therefore, I think wearing a
helmet and using a flag is a big step in minimizing one's risk. Some
people don't believe in that. The emergency rooms are full of alot of
those people.
just my 02 cents
Bob Cardone
Mik...@aol.com
to be "appreciated" is that the cyclist is something to be avoided. This is
especially true at night, where with the right reflectors, etc. I may be
identified as "something to avoid" some distance before I can be identified
as a cyclist. John Forrester makes this point, as I recall, in urging the
use of a large, amber reflector in the rear. At a long distance, the motor
vehicle may initially think of you as a tree, construction pylon, or
whatever, but begin to do automatic planning to have the vehicle on some
other path. Forrester, however, is also no fan of the gimmicks you list in
#2 below, for much the same reasons. Personally, the red rear flashers are
so common now that I think they say "cyclist" or "runner" pretty effectively
as long as your batteries are good.
In article <slrn71q7d...@hersland.Zierke.com>,
ha...@Zierke.com (Hans-Joachim Zierke) wrote:
> "Perzeption" describes the incoming sensor data, like noise, or like the
> visual appearance of something. This is the first step in noticing
> something. The second step is the brains work, transforming the sensor data
> into meaningful information.
>
> There is simply no problem for cyclists in the "Perzeption" stage. There is
> enough sensor data about the cyclist. The real question is, wether the
> sensor data describing a cyclist is filtered as meaningful information by
> the brain. [appreciation]
>
> There are completely different ways to deal with this situation:
>
> 1) Make very clear that there is a cyclist. This means, for example, riding
> close to the middle of narrow lanes. This means clear steady reliable
> lighting in the night or in the fog.
>
> 2) Make unclear that there is a cyclist. Instead of information, provide
> irritation: "there is something unusual". This means flashing lights,
> flags, roadworkers vests, yellow clothing, 30 different reflectors, etc.
> pp.
> Logically, this approach can only work as long as the item is unusual. As
> soon as the majority of cyclists has it, the effect is gone, and a new item
> is needed.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Hans-Joachim Zierke
Bob Cardone schrieb:
> I happen to think that anything that one can do to minimize
> risk, like wearing a seat belt, helmet, airbags, flags , landing
> lights etc.. cannot do anything but help one's odd's.
So why didn't you take my suggestion? The armchair I rode with has been a
quite big one, with solid beech wood construction inside, and thick high
quality padding. Maybe it is not as good as a car cell, but should give a
measurable amount of protection when being hit from behind.
NEVER RIDE WITHOUT YOUR ARMCHAIR !!!
hajo
Gml...@scvnet.com
>
> Bob Cardone schrieb:
>
> > I happen to think that anything that one can do to minimize
> > risk, like wearing a seat belt, helmet, airbags, flags , landing
> > lights etc.. cannot do anything but help one's odd's.
Yes, but with all this stuff on the bike you'll have a hard time topping
any hill! The best safety device is a "head on a swivel".
George
Bob Cardone
Hans-Joachim Zierke
Gml...@scvnet.com schrieb:
> Yes, but with all this stuff on the bike you'll have a hard time topping
> any hill!
Well, just imagine the training effect of a 50 kg armchair. It improves leg
strength without doubt, I tried it. (Though I have to admit, that I did it
only once ... well, see, it is a very beautiful and comfortable armchair,
my girlfriend has done this one by herself, and she's a professional in
the furniture business. You'll understand that I can't leave it outside.
But otherwise, I would sure ride with it to improve my safety!)
> The best safety device is a "head on a swivel".
Is that fractured swiveler, or a pre-accident swiveler?
NEVER RIDE WITHOUT YOUR ARMCHAIR!
hajo
Charles J. Gaffen
withstand moisture, and weigh MUCH less.
Chas
Hans-Joachim Zierke
Charles J. Gaffen schrieb:
> I think an armchair made of supplex, and lined with fiberfill would
> withstand moisture, and weigh MUCH less.
...so you could add a second armchair in the front. This sounds like vastly
improved safety!
NEVER RIDE WITHOUT YOUR ARMCHAIRS !!!
hajo
P.S.: Supplex? Fiberfill? Please understand that I won't discuss your
suggestion with my girlfriend, who produces furniture in the Campy Record
quality range...