Tupac represents the BEST and WORST in blackmen
Siddiq Bello
Blackpeople,
Have no doubt. Weather you hate him or love him, Tupac is the best and
worst in blackmen and his loss is a loss to our race. Why? When we let the
best of our warriors (like tupac) slip and fall into the madness its a
loss to us. Where was the Calvin Butts and the Farahkans and all the
supposed "leaders" when tupac was screaming for help/guidence. Its our
fault he found it in Bishop, Suge Knight, and the Thug Life.
I've spoken to Tupac, as a brother and for VIBE, and he completly reminded
me of myself and most of the brothers I've known. You get to a point where
its rough, dangerous and lonely and the only people who have your back are
the "crazy mother-fuckers", the thugs and the hustlers. The "leaders" are
no where to be found and dont want to hear from you. This is where Tupac
got stuck and having excepted help from that group, he was refused to turn
his back on them. In other words he got caught up in the game.
Tupac is the best in black men because:
He is a warrior
He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
He is VERY inteligent
He is extremly talented
He is socially conscous
He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
With the right support and guidence from the black community tupac, could
have been the poster child for African Liberation. Instead he is more
concerned in fight Puffy and Biggy for the crumbs from record sales.
Tupac represents the worst in blackman because:
He bought into and became the personification of "Thuglife", there by
promoting and proliferating its myth.
Peace and Blessings be upon you Tupac Shakur
Siddiq
--
VIBE New Media ===>>>> the place I work
Siddiq Bello ===>>>> what mother calls me
New Media Manager ===>>>> what my cards say
212-522-1522 ===>>>> where my voice mail picks up
sid...@vibe.com ===>>>> the quickest way to reach me
www.vibe.com ===>>>> what I do when I'm not sleeping
akira
Nice, but drop the white people paranoia
ChE User
>Nice, but drop the white people paranoia
where in did he mention white people?
k.orr
house of phat beats
Spectre
akira wrote:
>
> On 11 Sep 1996 20:30:45 GMT, sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) wrote:
>
> >Blackpeople,
> >
> >Have no doubt. Weather you hate him or love him, Tupac is the best and
> >worst in blackmen and his loss is a loss to our race.
Hold it right there. To hell with Tupac. There are MANY young and old brothers
who DID NOT make the CHOICE that your boy Tupac did. What about them? Tupac is
allowed to spread his destructive message via an unholy alliance with
technology and access to the world. Years from now when they remember these
times, they will play his and other tapes as representive of what the black
race was all about. Good, decent, honest, hardworking brothers will be
forgotten in the din of the BS that will define these times. This is the same
trick played in the 30's and 40's when the buffoon, slow thinking, head
scratching, blackman image defined those times. Feel sorry for him? Ha! RIP.
DarkStar
In that case, Tupac represents the BEST and WORST in white men as well.
--
-------------------------- Sign below the dotted line --------------------
Welcome to my virtual reality!
Ed Brown - dark...@cais.com
http://www.tnp.com/~darkstar (construction in progress)
Copyright, 1996, Edwin Brown
apryl
Siddiq Bello (sid...@vibe.com) wrote:
(Nice article snipped)
: Tupac is the best in black men because:
: He is a warrior
: He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
: He is VERY inteligent
: He is extremly talented
Hear, hear. I agree with this
: He is socially conscous
ehhhhh......
(but what did he do with his 'conscious'?)
: He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
Please tell me how, when and where?
Apryl
Who is still hoping for the best for 'My' TuPac
Al Needham
In article <5196jn$6...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, us...@che.utexas.edu (ChE
User) wrote:
"He fears no-one (least of all white folk)"
But anyway, the point is that he could have been a positive spokesman but
was far too concerned with instigating a WWF-style rivalry with Biggie in
order to sell a few records, and most of us fell for it. Problem is, like
the man said, "a nigga play pussy, that's the nigga that's being screwed".
So, thanks for keeping us all amused over the last few months, Tupac &
Biggie. Thanks to all the Radio stations and magazines that gave us all
the tittle-tattle and stoked the fire. Special thanks to MTV for showing
all the videos that elevated the whole beef into some kinda soap opera,
and thanks to all the news posters for reducing two enormous coasts to the
size of a playground. Meanwhile, hip hop is mutating into the very image
all the ignorant racist fuckers want it to be.
Get well soon, Tupac, and this time sort your life out.
Jerome Walker
In article <519c57$d...@vixc.voyager.net>, apryl <ap...@voyager.net> wrote:
>Siddiq Bello (sid...@vibe.com) wrote:
>(Nice article snipped)
>
>: Tupac is the best in black men because:
>: He is a warrior
>: He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
>: He is VERY inteligent
>: He is extremly talented
>
>Hear, hear. I agree with this
Then you are a fool.
"He is a warrior"? Since when is fucking someone else's wife, and then
bragging to the world that you did it, just to rub salt in the husband's
face, a defintion of a warrior? Since when is fighting at the drop of
a dime, a positive trait?
"He fears no-one (least of all white folk)"? People who are not afraid
to die, not because they see a "better world on the other side" but sjust
because they don't give a fuck, are people to stay clear of.
"He is VERY intelligent"? The fool doesn't see is parole officer, thus
setting himself up to go *BACK* to jail.
"He is extremely talented"? Debatable.
[ edit ]
>Apryl
>Who is still hoping for the best for 'My' TuPac
So you say you have trouble finding 'good' men huh?
Fawning for "men" like Tupac may be your problem.
--
Jerome -- Insert witty/deep/stupid saying here -- Walker
Trey Harris
Thank you, Siddiq, for portraying Tupac exactly the way that he
is. So much talent & potential but he wastes it on "Thug Life".
We talked about this in class (Sociology 329, Race & Ethnicity)
and found that a lot of people don't like Tupac because he doesn't conform
to mainstream "values". He's arrogant, cocky, sometimes vulgar, sometimes
violent and *SUCCESSFUL*. That last part is what scares mainstream
America.
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
Siddiq Bello
In article <519c57$d...@vixc.voyager.net>, ap...@voyager.net (apryl) wrote:
<snip>
> (but what did he do with his 'conscious'?)
>
> : He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
>
> Please tell me how, when and where?
>
> Who is still hoping for the best for 'My' TuPac
Remember the songs "Brenda's got a baby"
"What about dear moma"? Very positive Tupac has also planend, but not
executed, benefit concerts for various orgs.
Kenneth Crudup
In article <siddiq-1209...@pool022.max2.new-york.ny.dynip.alter.net>,
sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) says:
>Remember the songs "Brenda's got a baby"
>"What about dear moma"? Very positive Tupac has also planend, but not
>executed, benefit concerts for various orgs.
He seems to have changed after he played "Bishop" in "Juice" ....
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup, Unix & OS/2 Software Consultant, Scott County Consulting
ke...@panix.com CI$: 75032,3044 +1 617 524 5929/4949 Home/Office
16 Plainfield St, Boston, MA 02130-3633 +1 617 983 9410 Fax
"... the Internet deserves the highest protection from governmental intrusion."
Calvin Lane
Spectre <spe...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<32382B...@pacbell.net>...
> akira wrote:
> >
> > On 11 Sep 1996 20:30:45 GMT, sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) wrote:
> > >Blackpeople,
> > >Have no doubt. Weather you hate him or love him, Tupac is the best and
> > >worst in blackmen and his loss is a loss to our race.
His loss is defiantly not a loss to our race. It's unfortunate, but it is
not a loss to African-Americans.
> Hold it right there. To hell with Tupac. There are MANY young and old
brothers
> who DID NOT make the CHOICE that your boy Tupac did. What about them?
I applaud you my brother. You make a very important and valid point. His
CHOICES got him into the trouble that he was involved in. He should not
be honored for his choices. I agree that he represents the worst in
blackmen but he defiantly does not represent the best in blackmen.
> Tupac is
> allowed to spread his destructive message via an unholy alliance with
> technology and access to the world. Years from now when they remember
these
> times, they will play his and other tapes as representive of what the
black
> race was all about. Good, decent, honest, hardworking brothers will be
> forgotten in the din of the BS that will define these times. This is the
same
> trick played in the 30's and 40's when the buffoon, slow thinking, head
> scratching, blackman image defined those times. Feel sorry for him? Ha!
RIP.
These words are strong and unfortunately true.
Calvin Lane
cal...@worldnet.att.net
Michael Rimpel
sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) wrote:
>In article <519c57$d...@vixc.voyager.net>, ap...@voyager.net (apryl) wrote:
><snip>
>> ehhhhh......
>> (but what did he do with his 'conscious'?)
>>
>> : He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
>>
>> Please tell me how, when and where?
>>
>> Apryl
>> Who is still hoping for the best for 'My' TuPac
>Remember the songs "Brenda's got a baby"
>"What about dear moma"? Very positive Tupac has also planend, but not
>executed, benefit concerts for various orgs.
>Siddiq
I wonder if Brenda or Dear Momma were playing in the background when Tupac
supposedly raped that Black girl??
Michael Rimpel
ri...@worldnet.att.net
Jennifer Brannon
Trey Harris <jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>
>
> We talked about this in class (Sociology 329, Race & Ethnicity)
>and found that a lot of people don't like Tupac because he doesn't conform
>to mainstream "values". He's arrogant, cocky, sometimes vulgar, sometimes
>violent and *SUCCESSFUL*.
Aren't you over-simplifying him just a little bit? It's not just mainstream America that has problems with Tupac, it's a great deal=
of people within the hip-hop community as well. So what if he's arrogant, cocky, vulgar and succesful. Most people aren't going t=
o sweat anyone who fits that description. Tupac's violence is debatable (ie: the alleged rape and the shooting incident in Atlanta)=
, but what isn't debatable is that the guy is a hypocritical asshole. He's mean, he's a liar and he started a ridiculous amount of =
shit that is very threatening to hip-hop culture and it's future. I'm sorry to be saying this when he's fighting for his life, but =
let's not make him a martyr. Forget mainstream values, it's about time that people within the hip-hop community stood up and said "=
This shit will not be tolerated. We will not let your selfishness, your lies and your fucked up attitude threaten what we love. We=
won't let you destroy it."
Apryl
wal...@panix.com (Jerome Walker) wrote:
>In article <519c57$d...@vixc.voyager.net>, apryl <ap...@voyager.net> wrote:
>>Siddiq Bello (sid...@vibe.com) wrote:
>>(Nice article snipped)
>>
>>: Tupac is the best in black men because:
>>: He is a warrior
>>: He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
>>: He is VERY inteligent
>>: He is extremly talented
>>
>>Hear, hear. I agree with this
>Then you are a fool.
(Apryl, holding her breath for moderation, which may cut some of this
flame-age)
I prefer to think that we may not agree on some points.
>"He is a warrior"? Since when is fucking someone else's wife, and then
>bragging to the world that you did it, just to rub salt in the husband's
>face, a defintion of a warrior? Since when is fighting at the drop of
>a dime, a positive trait?
Oh, I see. Sorry, I was not agreeing with that entire portion. I do
see TuPac as extremely talented. I didn't 'disagree' with the other
stuff. I have no real opinion on that.
As for his being a warrior: many people define warrior in many ways.
So I didn't disagree with that.
>"He fears no-one (least of all white folk)"? People who are not afraid
>to die, not because they see a "better world on the other side" but sjust
>because they don't give a fuck, are people to stay clear of.
Again, I was agreeing with the 'talent' portion.
Siddiq said nothing of his fear of death, he was speaking of his fear
of people.
I have no way of knowing what or who TuPac, or any one fears.
Just me.
>"He is VERY intelligent"? The fool doesn't see is parole officer, thus
>setting himself up to go *BACK* to jail.
Again, I was not disagreeing with this... what do you mean he hasn't
seen his PO? I had no idea. Hmm. Maybe that's why I didn't disagree
with this.
>"He is extremely talented"? Debatable.
Ok, let's debate that.
I think he's talented. I think that you try real hard to start fights
with me. See you in the parking lot at 3pm sharp!!
>[ edit ]
>>Apryl
>>Who is still hoping for the best for 'My' TuPac
>So you say you have trouble finding 'good' men huh?
>Fawning for "men" like Tupac may be your problem.
Maybe. Maybe the fact that I run into, and get flirted with, by men
who have a need to use profanity and refuse to pay attention to more
than the part they want to disagree with.
Why is it that the people that I have actual contact with are so much
like that?
Apryl
Who seems to have a better grasp of reality vs fantasy
Roxanne
>
>
> Thank you, Siddiq, for portraying Tupac exactly the way that he
>is. So much talent & potential but he wastes it on "Thug Life".
>
> We talked about this in class (Sociology 329, Race & Ethnicity)
>and found that a lot of people don't like Tupac because he doesn't conform
>to mainstream "values". He's arrogant, cocky, sometimes vulgar, sometimes
>violent and *SUCCESSFUL*. That last part is what scares mainstream
>America.
Wise up sweetheart...mainstream America is'nt hardly pressed by Tupac
Shakur...he is a blip on a gnat's ass where they are concerned and the
ultimate media moll when it comes to confirming the ignorant fears of
certain groups about young black men.
I have no sympathy for that fool...none at all. He's got "Thug Life"
emblazoned on his chest...like a damn bullseye...and what the fu*k
has he done for his community that deserves our allegiance? Made a
few thousand selling "studio gansta" nonsense to kids who don't know
squat about his middle class upbringing. You call that success? More
like volunteer slavery...of the mind.
The image that Tupac portrays is an affront to black manhood...and if
black men are judging themselves by his "Thug Life" credo then our
community is sincerely fu*ked! Yeah right...please carry guns...talk
much trash...get shot up by other members of your own community.
Yeah...the guy's a real HERO! Stop deluding yourself and wake the
hell up. TUPAK IS AN ENTERTAINER!!! That is all! Nothing
more...nothing less. He is *not* the standard by which young black
men should measure themselves unless:
1 Being shot up several times is our new rite of passage.
2. Instigating a pseudo-war with other rap stars is the new
standard for heroism.
3. Having an affair with a married woman and slandering her name
in public is a new way of proving your manhood.
4. Assulting a young black woman in your hotel...again to prove
your manhood is cool wit you.
5. Living a mythical life that only has credence in your lyrics.
Keepin it real my ass...more like keepin it 6 foot under. Is losing
a lung for a so-called reputation worth it to you? Get real. Better
yet...get educated and stop being distracted by these idiots that do
more harm to themselves and you by selling themselves to corporate
interests that love the profitability of black artistic expression...
but still...hate the folks that make it. Death Row Records eh?
Oh..the f-ing irony. Tupac just learned that there are *real* ganstas
out there....and while I wish no one ill...I ain't weeping after no
idiot that blew so many chances while others are still trying to get a
turn at the wheel.
Tupac represents his own damn self!
>
> Peace,
>
> *** MARBLES ***
Yeah...well...don't lose yours. Give me De La Soul any day.
Roxanne.
---------"Lovemaking is the consolation for living in the body just
as art is the consolation for living in the world."
Helmut -- The God In Flight.
M2S
In article <51a79f$p...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
ri...@worldnet.att.net (Michael Rimpel) wrote:
:sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) wrote:
:
:>In article <519c57$d...@vixc.voyager.net>, ap...@voyager.net (apryl) wrote:
:><snip>
:>> ehhhhh......
:>> (but what did he do with his 'conscious'?)
:>>
:>> : He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
:>>
:>> Please tell me how, when and where?
:>>
:>> Apryl
:>> Who is still hoping for the best for 'My' TuPac
:
:>Remember the songs "Brenda's got a baby"
:>"What about dear moma"?
And Trapped, Keep ya head up, So many tears, Lord knows, Young niggaz,
The streetz R death row, Papa'z home, Me against the world, Life goes on,
I ain't mad at cha.
Of course, being a black male living in America, he expresses his (and
our) anger and frustrations, and the daily challenges that a black man
faces in tracks like Souljah's story, Hollar if ya hear me, Point that
finga, Souljah's revenge, Fuck the world, Death around the corner, Only
God can judge me, and Shorty wanna be a thug.
He also represented the thug life (Hollywood also do) in 5 deadly venomz,
Outlaw, if I die tonite and Cant C me.
"keep ya head up"
I give a holler to my sisters on welfare
Tupac cares, but don't nobody else care
I know they like ta beat ya down alot
and when ya come around tha block brothers clown alot
but please don't cry, dry ya eyes never let up
forgive but don't forget girl keep ya head up
and when he tells you you ain't nothin don't believe him
and if he can't learn ta love ya, you should leave him
cuz sister you don't need him
I ain't tryin ta cash up, but I just call 'em how I see'em
ya know what makes me unhappy
when brothers make babies
and leave a young mother ta be a pappy
"hollar if ya hear me"
Pump ya fists like this
Hollar if ya hear me
[pump, pump] if ya pissed
to tha sell-outs livin' it up
One way or another you'll be givin it up
I guess cause i'm black boy
i'm supposed to say 'peace', sing songs, and get capped on?
but it's time for tha new plan, BAM!
i'll be swingin' like a one man clan...
...whatever it takes to make a stand
cause nobody else'l give a damn
so we live like caged beasts
waitin' for tha day to let tha rage free
still me, till they kill me
I love it when they fear me
Hollar if Ya Hear me
"Souljah's revenge"
My attitude is shitty, my message to tha censorship commity
who's tha biggest gang of niggas in tha city?
tha critics are tha cops
tha courts are tha crooks
don't look so confused
take a closer look
Niggas get they necks broke daily
tryin ta stay jail free
what tha fuck does Quayle know a young black males....
Please tell me...
... Cops pull me over
check my plates
but I'm legal
ya couldn't get me, figure 'FUCK with a niggas people'
They got me trapped, gat'd with tha motherfucken hammer back
cops on my back, just cause I'm black, SNAP
Tupac may not have always done the right things in life, but at least he
tried to give some good advice in his music. In "Young niggaz", he said:
"Young Niggaz"
As a Young Nigga
give anythang
to be that innocent again
when I was ten
I didn't bang
but I was hangin with tha homies
till them niggas started
slangin'...
...I'm tellen you, if your young, have your brains and have every limb and
all that.....ya'll niggas don't know how good you really do got it.
Motherfuckers need to just calm down and peep what they wanna do for tha rest.
before you end your life, before you begin your life
ya dumb nigga
Now that I'm grown
I got my mind on being something
don't wanna be another statistic
out there doin nothin
tryin to maintain in this dirty game
keep it real and I will
even if it kills me
my young niggas
brake away from these dumb niggas
put down the guns and have some fun nigga
tha rest will come
figure fame is a fast thang
they're gangbangin puttin niggas in a casket
murdered for hangin at tha wrong place at the wrong time
no longer livin
cause he trew up tha wrong sign
and everyday
I watch tha murder rate increase
and even worse
tha eppidemics and diseases
what is the future?
the projects lookin hopless
there, more and more brothas givin up
a don't care
sometimes I hate when brothers act up
I hit tha weed
and I procced to blow the track up
for young niggas
"Point da finga"
One two three, peace to the real Gees, still me 'til these mothofuckas
kill me, I can't give up, it's a black thang and I ain't going back to the
crack game...
>Very positive Tupac has also planend, but not
:>executed, benefit concerts for various orgs.
:
:>Siddiq
:
:I wonder if Brenda or Dear Momma were playing in the background when Tupac
:supposedly raped that Black girl??
:
This is indeed an amazing question. It's like superimposing one
supposition upon another. It's kind of funny that you said it though,
because that was one of the things that was most upsetting to Tupac about
the charge. Tupac couldn't believe that after 'Brenda got a baby' and
'Keep your head up', black people were so willing to believe those ugly
charges of rape and sadomy.
Now nobody knows what actually happened, except Tupac and the people who
supposedly set him up (including the bitch who gave him the blow job in
the club with everybody watching). But I am more inclined to believe
Tupac's version rather than those unscrupulous people who he some how got
mixed up with.
As Tupac said in Last wordz:
"I ain't racist, but lets trade places, trace the hate then face it.."
Any black man living in America who has listened to Tupac's albums and
can't make a connection is D_E_A_D.
Tupac, down but not out. The Souljah's story MUST continue, so Holla (and
Pump ya fist) when ya hear him.
Joseph S Grossberg
: : He is a warrior
How do you figure? Only person he fought against was the poor girl in his
hotel room. Violence for no reason isn't a meritous thing.
: : He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
So is any psychopath. Obviously, his bravery was just foolhardy, cuz his
"fearing no-one" got him one lung short of where he could have been.
: : He is VERY inteligent
So was Hitler.
: : He is extremly talented
I don't know about "extremely" talented. And talent has no value unless
you do something worthwhile with it (i.e. not glorify violence and
misogyny).
: Hear, hear. I agree with this
Now do these look like the right values to respect someone over? What ever
happened to real values? Being tough and smart and good with the mic does
not make you worthy of idolatry. Personally, I'd rather have my kids look
up to someone who doesn't act rashly, is dumb and is untalented, but does
good things and respects other people than this narrow-minded, negative,
parasite "Thug".
Joe.
Joseph S Grossberg
: ehhhhh......
: (but what did he do with his 'conscious'?)
: : He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
: Please tell me how, when and where?
By assaulting Allen Hughes b/c he didn't like the way a film was going?
By convincing a whole generation of kids that what he presents is so fly?
Do you think any of the shorties so enamored of that Thug Life tattoo and
other aspects of the man's (and I use that word "man" sparingly) are going
to realize that his lifestyle is a negative one? No, the only lesson they
are going to learn is that Tupac's only mistake was not to wear a
bulletproof vest and roll with his own arsenal.
Joe.
Aztec-Assassin
Jennifer Brannon (jen...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: I'm sorry to be saying this when he's fighting for his life, but
: let's not make him a martyr.
AMEN to that! Martyr's have causes not gimmicks (what I think 2 Pac has
been for the last couple of years). I hope Tupac Amaru Shakur survives
but that his Thug Life/Bishop image and mentality are DEAD. 2 Pac is only
a victim of himself and the 'gangsta fairytales' he espoused.
Unfortunately, a lot of kids will elevate 2 Pac's status to O.G. after
his latest tragedy. Hopefully, others will finally see that living a good
and honest life is far better than living the fast life. Real fast huh?
pce-out,
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE HIP-HOP ZONE The PREMIER hip-hop video show of Albuquerque & New Mexico
Andrew Arellano "WHY PAY $2.50 A POP WHEN YOU CAN GET THE REAL HIP-HOP?"
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DarkStar
In article <alpha2-1309...@slip-14-2.ots.utexas.edu>,
M2S <alp...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
...
>
>Of course, being a black male living in America, he expresses his (and
>our) anger and frustrations, and the daily challenges that a black man
>faces in tracks like Souljah's story, Hollar if ya hear me, Point that
>finga, Souljah's revenge, Fuck the world, Death around the corner, Only
>God can judge me, and Shorty wanna be a thug.
*BLAH*
*BELCH*
*GAG*
Tupac ain't nuthin' but the StepNFetchIt of da '90's. Da only damn thing
is dis fool glorfies genocide.
Stayin' real my a$$!
Ya'll need to realize what time it is.
Smoove D
I can't consider someone who glorifies violence, and negativity, a good black role
model. Our black children of today have enough problems facing them. Think of those
hundreds innocent children being accidentally shot in crossfire each year, or the child
struggling to see adult hood. I consider myself to be a good "positive" black role
model for our children!!! I donate my time teaching\assisting our young children with
skills they need to make it in this world, (Computer, math, ie.). The younger
generation needs to realize that there are no such things as "Retired Thugs", or a
"Drug Dealer's" pension plan. In the '70s, pimpin was glorified, well, were
are all those pimps of the 70's? Maybe it's that old guy sitting on the corner
begging, or that old guy serving life, or deceased. America has, and always will
glorify the negativity, and ignorance within our race (remember "Amos & Andy"?). A
brotha can still be down, even though he respects his sista's, works a 9-5, and
depicts a positive role model for our young children. There are other ways to express
your anger, I wonder if Tupac ever voted? Imagine if everyone that was into hip hop
voted? Politicians would have no choice but to represent our best interests. I wonder
if Tupac has helped a black child with they're homework, or volunteered his time to
help improve a black community. If todays young black generation thinks Tupac
represented a "good" black role model, I'd hate to see how tommorows generation will
define a "black role model". Even the elderly of today are terrified of todays younger
generation, will you someday be in the same position after you become elderly?
--
Dj Smoove D
Undaground Therapy Music
http://members.gnn.com/smoovedee/undaground/index.htm
KeEpIn It UnDaGrOuNd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Michael Pryor
ro...@tiac.net (Roxanne) wrote:
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> *** MARBLES ***
>Roxanne.
Yeabo, Sista. I think you've summed it up. "Keeping It Real" should
mean ( If it doesn't already) keep some values, responsibilities and
respect towards your community and youself!!! Thank you for comin'
correct!
Shem Hotep (May you go in Peace)
KeMeT
======================================================
You think I wanna get on the mic and waste MY NATION'S time ???
========= KRS-ONE =======
David Michael Schwartz
I don't know that much about Tupac. But the man is definitely four cans
short of a six-pack.
Tom Fry
David Michael Schwartz (sch...@alum01.its.rpi.edu) wrote:
: I don't know that much about Tupac. But the man is definitely four cans
: short of a six-pack.
As of about 5 hours ago, you can make that *six* cans short.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Fry uc...@ciao.trail.bc.ca
H. McDaniel
sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) writes:
>Tupac is the best in black men because:
>He is a warrior
>He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not a sign of intelligence. See next point.
>He is VERY inteligent
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If he was he would have feared someone/something.
>He is extremly talented
Lots of people are - it's how you use your talents that matters.
>He is socially conscous
Everyone who lives in society is. Did he make things better?
>He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
>With the right support and guidence from the black community tupac, could
>have been the poster child for African Liberation. Instead he is more
>concerned in fight Puffy and Biggy for the crumbs from record sales.
Could have, should've, would of... You know the saying. Don't pin all
your hopes on people who don't want to sacrafice anything for you. Otherwise
you'll keep being disapointed.
-McDaniel
H. McDaniel
ro...@tiac.net (Roxanne) writes:
>On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:14:20 GMT, Trey Harris
><jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thank you, Siddiq, for portraying Tupac exactly the way that he
>>is. So much talent & potential but he wastes it on "Thug Life".
>>
>> We talked about this in class (Sociology 329, Race & Ethnicity)
>>and found that a lot of people don't like Tupac because he doesn't conform
>>to mainstream "values". He's arrogant, cocky, sometimes vulgar, sometimes
>>violent and *SUCCESSFUL*. That last part is what scares mainstream
>>America.
[...]
>The image that Tupac portrays is an affront to black manhood...and if
>black men are judging themselves by his "Thug Life" credo then our
>community is sincerely fu*ked! Yeah right...please carry guns...talk
>much trash...get shot up by other members of your own community.
>Yeah...the guy's a real HERO! Stop deluding yourself and wake the
>hell up. TUPAK IS AN ENTERTAINER!!! That is all! Nothing
>more...
Yup -- some people always seem unable to seperate entertainers from
real people. People like Rush Limbaugh (for instance) are *just*
entertainers who say/do whatever they think will keep the cash flowing.
Then you get all these people blindly following them thinking that
they actually care.
-McDaniel
Trey Harris
You are correct, it was somewhat oversimplified. I guess I was
mainly referring to mainstream "white America" (for lack of a better term-
nobody get offended). As a black male, I hope that 2Pac is not the poster
child for all black men in this country, although too many of us know and
understand his anger & frustration.
However, you're right. That doesn't mean that I condone any of
2Pac's actions. I was raised to never speak ill of the dead, but 2Pac
enjoyed drawing attention and drama his way. It is quite possible (not
definite, though) that his shooting was related to that fact. I also
agree that we (as a people) shouldn't stand for ill behavior, no matter
who it comes from. But I think we owe it to ourselves to try and
understand the attitude that was held not just by 2Pac, but millions of
black folks in this country. I don't want to be so quick to pass
judgement.
Thanks for the commentary...
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
Trey Harris
My, my, my...what a venomous response. I guess I should have made
my views a little bit clearer.
First off, I don't consider 2Pac to be any kind of hero. He has
done almost nothing in the direction of positive activities. I'm the very
*last* person to praise "Thug Life" at all. He enjoyed antagonizing
people and causing a ruckus. He contradicted himself constantly within
his music. A hero? Not even close.
However, let's be honest...how many other "2Pacs" are there in
America. Too many. Tupac represented something in our society that is
very real. Too many young, black males (and probably females, too) are
angry, frustrated and lost. Instead of simply telling these brothers and
sisters that what they are doing is wrong, we've got to try and connect
with them. I had hoped beyond all hopes that 2Pac would wake up and be
just the one to accomplish this.
As far as "keeping it real"...I never used that term once within
my post and I don't know where you picked it up from.
Peace,
always a firm grip on my...
*** MARBLES ***
Ware Pilgrim
I hope that Tupac's death will wake up the hip-hop community to the
realities of his gangsta fantasies.
Hip-hoppers didn't really give a crap about AIDS until Eazy-E, with
his promiscuous lifestyle, contracted it and died.
Now Tupac has passed away due to gunshot wounds. Ironic, isn't it,
considering most of his career was based on promoting the gangsta/thug
lifestyle.
Maybe we'll wake up, now. Gangsta rap is fantasy, folks. Let's try to
keep it that way- or eliminate the genre altogether.
Peace (I hope).
When people stand in the way of your goals,
This is how you treat 'em;
Meet 'em,
Beat 'em,
Then defeat 'em.
Ware (rhymes with sorry) Pilgrim
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~wyopilgr/
Harold
On 13 Sep 1996 19:19:18 -0400, sch...@alum01.its.rpi.edu (David Michael
Schwartz) wrote:
>I don't know that much about Tupac. But the man is definitely four cans
>short of a six-pack.
It seems that He traded his Two Packs in for One Box.....made of pine.
Jacob Bentley
On 12 Sep 1996, Kenneth Crudup wrote:
> He seems to have changed after he played "Bishop" in "Juice" ....
the n*gga thinks (thought...oops) he is/was bishop ...
"bustas shot me five times ... real niggas don't die"
"and they wonder how i live with 5 shots ... niggas still hard to kill on
my block"
"who shot me ... but ya punks didn't finish ... now ya bout to feel the
wrath of a menace"
at least biggie's still livin'
tupac had much talent, but he was a sucker for falling into some
irrational/macho/hardcore bull that eventually got him killed.
peace,
jacob
Jacob Bentley
On 12 Sep 1996, Calvin Lane wrote:
> His loss is defiantly not a loss to our race. It's unfortunate, but it is
> not a loss to African-Americans.
a loss of any young black male is a loss to our race ... tupac was not a
bad person ... he was just confused ... he never shot anybody ... he was
not a murderer ... in fact, he'll probably go to heaven (bless his soul)
... just because he was sick and confused doesn't mean he was bad.
i, for one, feel sorry for the brother ... he thought he was bishop.
peace,
jacob
APage20301
In article <32382B...@pacbell.net>, Spectre <spe...@pacbell.net>
writes:
>This is the same
>trick played in the 30's and 40's when the buffoon, slow thinking, head
>scratching, blackman image defined those times.
What?????? You obviously have never sat down and listened to an entire
Tupac album. Get off the computer, go to a record store, buy his first
album and LISTEN to the lyrics. LISTEN. With an open mind. Then, you'll
see how ridiculous your comment looks, especially when you analyze the
lyrics to Tupac songs like "Wordz of Wisdom".
APage20301
In article <3237974b...@news.earthlink.net>, fuc...@yomama.net
(akira) writes:
>Nice, but drop the white people paranoia
>
>
After all that he said in his post, this is all you had to say in
response? What the hell is white people paranoia? Knowledge of history
perhaps?
APage20301
In article <519hje$3...@panix.com>, wal...@panix.com (Jerome Walker)
writes:
>"He is extremely talented"? Debatable.
>
>
Somehow, I seriously doubt our friend Jerome has sat down and LISTENED to
Tupac's albums. There are four of them and he has written many poignant
songs. People often sleep on Tupac's lyrics because he has sold so many
albums, but when he wants to he can be quite a storyteller as well as a
fine lyricist. HIs politics are well-thought out as well when he chooses
to express them musically (see "Wordz of Wisdom). Below, I've laid out a
playlist for you so you can skip to the good stuff. Remember, I am a
lyricist thus I listen to lyrics first. You may or may not like the
production. I urge you however to listen to the lyrics displayed in the
songs below (as a lyricist myself, I am often impressed by how well Tupac
writes on certain subjects like motherhood which other MCs never touch).
1st Album Highlights
Violent
Wordz of Wisdom
Trapped
Brenda's Got a Baby
Part Time Mother
(this album is basically all conscious, except for occasional bravado
tracks like "Return of the Lunatic")
2nd Album
Keep ya Head Up (quite well written actually, most people sleep on it
because it blew up commercially)
Papa's Song
Something 2 Die For (the most powerful interlude in hip-hop, IMO)
(the gangsterism creeps in here)
3rd Album
Young Niggaz
Dear Mama
Me Against the World
(more conscious)
4th (current) Album
Life Goes On
Wonder Why They Call You Bitch (this song is quite thoughtful and IMO a
much better execution of what Jeru was trying to do with his song, 'The
Bythez")
(heavily into frivolous topics, mostly about partying, sometimes about
eliminating rivals)
That's all.
Salaam,
Apex
Loon44
Amen to you brother. We need to stop glamorizing assholes like Tupac.
When real heros in our community die people don't send thousands of email
notes crying over them. But when media enlarged fools like Tupac die -
everyone loses it. Tupac perpetuates everything people negatively believe
about brothers in front of the world stage. Fuck him. He paid for his
choices
Loon44
Brother, you hit it on the nose. I appreciate someone who doesn't get
caught up in all this media hype of a bullshit artist. Tupac is no hero
and doesn't deserved to be martyred like one.
Gabrielle Daniels
On 11 Sep 1996, Siddiq Bello wrote:
> Have no doubt. Weather you hate him or love him, Tupac is the best and
> worst in blackmen and his loss is a loss to our race. Why? When we let the
> best of our warriors (like tupac) slip and fall into the madness its a
> loss to us. Where was the Calvin Butts and the Farahkans and all the
> supposed "leaders" when tupac was screaming for help/guidence. Its our
> fault he found it in Bishop, Suge Knight, and the Thug Life.
Frankly, what did his mom provide after his dad ended up in the slam?
Being a former member of the Black Panther Party, girlfriend could have
suggested some still existing ex-members to bond with. Not everybody from
BPP was demoralized after it was broken up.
My mother tried to provide Big Brothers. She encouraged her sons to go
out for baseball and football. The male-headed family down the street
took my brothers camping and fishing. One brother, unfortunately, is a
dog. The other brother is doing well and preparing to get married early
next year. Go figure.
> I've spoken to Tupac, as a brother and for VIBE, and he completly reminded
> me of myself and most of the brothers I've known. You get to a point where
> its rough, dangerous and lonely and the only people who have your back are
> the "crazy mother-fuckers", the thugs and the hustlers. The "leaders" are
> no where to be found and dont want to hear from you. This is where Tupac
> got stuck and having excepted help from that group, he was refused to turn
> his back on them. In other words he got caught up in the game.
But there have been guys who have gotten away from that game before it
killed them. Screw whether Jesse/Calvin/Farrakhan would have personally
saved him. That's not their job. Hell, he could have saved himself. The
Life went to his head. Fact of the matter is he thought he could beat the
clock, and guess what...time ran the f--k out. Don't say brother man
didn't have plenty of hints from the Universe that days were ticking
away...
By the way, did he ever mention that little 6-year-old kid who got killed
while shots were exchanged during a community fair in Marin City three
years ago? Him and his posse and the Marin City homeboys doing "The Wild
Wild West"?
> Tupac is the best in black men because:
> He is a warrior
I disagree. A warrior resists using force until the last possible moment.
Human life is still sacred even to a warrior. "Keep your swords in your
scabbards."--Sanjuro.
> He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
Big freaking deal. Even a real warrior fears death, fears not being able
to do his job well or correctly, and fears weakness. Talk about having
balls is cheap.
> He is VERY inteligent
> He is extremly talented
> He is socially conscous
If he was, it is a waste. However, from reports about this young man, he
certainly didn't have what you say he possessed. Let's say this: he tried
to wear many masks underneath that real face of his.
> He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
Where? When? What? Who? I'm not trying to make a joke, but I've heard
nothing of this.
> With the right support and guidence from the black community tupac, could
> have been the poster child for African Liberation. Instead he is more
> concerned in fight Puffy and Biggy for the crumbs from record sales.
In other words, he believed the hype about his preposterous version of
black masculinity. Like Puffy, Biggie, Snoop and the rest of these hoods,
and the brothers (and EVEN THE WHITE GUYS) who buy their records.
I'm really tired of hearing about 'hard' brothers who are so busy sniffing
their own cum that they have no feelings about their impact on others:
male, female, children or aged. It's too bad his mama has to face burying
him, instead of the other way around. But let's face it: hundreds of
mamas across the country are in this predicament.
> Tupac represents the worst in blackman because:
> He bought into and became the personification of "Thuglife", there by
> promoting and proliferating its myth.
I agree. But you sure ain suggesting any alternatives to the Life, but in
some ways are still glorifying it.
Let me add that 'promoting' the myth of ice-cold, stone emotionless
brothers is getting a lot of them in a world of trouble. Streetlife is
not the only life in town. Really listen to some of those lyrics these
guys are rapping. Don't buy into it: the self/hatred, the misogyny, the
disrespect, the anger, the hopelessness. If a brother can get something
out of it to confirm his sense of frustration, fine. Hell yes, they have a
right to express themselves, and they should have an outlet. But I refuse
to believe that this is the only right symbol of young black manhood which
is worthwhile and should be passed on to the generations. As far as I am
concerned, this Life begins to prey upon itself, much like a few hundred
Jeffrey Dahmers preying upon black men.
Too many brothers are accepting and incorporating the message without
analyzing for its long-term effects, you dig? It's gotta stop.
(Last of all, Siddiq, improve the spelling or the typing or something,
okay? Are you in grief? I am a writer myself.)
Loon44
Get of his dick.
People like you and Tupac, use black people's situation to justify
portraying Black men as angry, violent, assholes who:
1. supposedly fucking other men's wives and boast
2. do nothing but drink and smoke weed
3. fuck women carelessly at their leisure then insult them afterward
4. talk about shit, they never lived (like middle class motherfuckers
from Oakland talking about gang shit)
5. Imprinting thug life on their bodies for all to see
Oh yea, Tupac is a real fuckin role model, a real fucking hero. If you
relate to Tupac - you'll probably end up like him. I grew up in the much
harder neighborhoods than Tupac and I didn't make the choices he made.
Fuck that product of his environment shit. A real man controls his
environment through his mind.
Peace
Loon44
No, buddy. Ridiculous is using an album made years ago (and a couple of
songs on it at) to portray this man. Tupac was a straight up
embarrassment to the image of Young black men. Who cares about lyrics -
that's commercial shit for people like you to buy into. That's
entertainment. It sells. Lets look at his actions. Totally
contradictory to the few positive songs he made. Most of his music is
shoot em up, drink and puff, gangsters and hoes bullshit. You know this.
We as a people have to stop justifying this kind of irresponsible behavior
by our brothers and calling it "cool" and "heroic". Showing our ass is
not the way to "fight the system". Malcolm died the same way Pac did but
he never misrepresented our people.
John Trotman
Amen. As a blackman from ATLANTA I agree, Tupac will be missed. His
music was savage commentary on violence in america but at the same
time beautifuly written. Me against the World captures Tupac at his
best, a troubled but warm hearted black man who does not enjoy to sin
but must to survive.
Angela Darlean Brown
I'm passing along an excerpt of an article from the San Francisco
Chronicle (September 14, 1996). It seems like the most complete bio I've
read to date. I hope it helps in continuing the dialogue and filling in
missing pieces. As with all things, if someone has more specific and
accurate info, please do not hesitate to contribute.
"Tupac Amaru Shakur was born in 1971 in the Bronx, New York, to Afeni
Shakur, a member of the Black Panther group accused of bomb conspiracies;
she gave birth to Tupac one month after being released from prison.
Shakur's father was never identified and Tupac spent much of his childhood
in poverty.
"He later moved to Baltimore, where he studied acting at the High School
of the Performing Arts. There he wrote his first rap song, about gun
control, after a friend was shot while playing with guns. After dropping
out of high school - he later earned a general equivalency diploma - he
moved to Marin City in 1988.
"Shakur broke into the music industry by working in the road crew for
Digital Underground, based in Oakland and Berkeley. He kept rapping and
auditioning for the group while hauling their equipment until they folded
him in. ...and in 1991 Shur peeled off into a solo career with the
million-selling album "2Pacalypse Now."
"His first solo album also propelled him into the mainstream when a lawyer
claimed a man accused of killing a Texas policeman was inspired by its
anti-cop lyrics. Then-Vice President Dan Quayle used the incident as a
symbol of his 1992 fight over "traditional values" in Hollywood.
"Later in the same year a gun that accidentally killed 6-year-old Qa'id
Walker-Teal in Marin City was traced to Shakur. His record company paid
Teal's family more than $300,000 in a civil settlement.
"A string of other entanglements with the law also thrust the star into
the headlines, from his 1993 arrest for allegedly beating up movie
director Allen Hughes to being charged with shooting two off-duty police
officers in Atlanta. He was convicted in 1994 of sexually abusing a woman
in New York and served nearly eight months in prson before being released
on bail last year pending appeals."
Gabrielle T. Daniels
On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Angela Darlean Brown wrote:
> I'm passing along an excerpt of an article from the San Francisco
> Chronicle (September 14, 1996). It seems like the most complete bio I've
> read to date. I hope it helps in continuing the dialogue and filling in
> missing pieces. As with all things, if someone has more specific and
> accurate info, please do not hesitate to contribute.
[...]
>
> "Later in the same year a gun that accidentally killed 6-year-old Qa'id
> Walker-Teal in Marin City was traced to Shakur. His record company paid
> Teal's family more than $300,000 in a civil settlement.
Okay...my question is partly answered here.
Little Qa'id is supposed to be buried in Texas.
Thanks for the information, Ms. Brown.
Angela Darlean Brown
I think we all should step back and think about why we look for "heroes"
and "role models". My philosophy has always been to see people as human
and take the best qualities of each person to inform my own ideas and
actions. I agree with those who have constantly reminded the newsgroup
that 2Pac was HUMAN. I don't know why we allow the media to dictate
with which HUMANS we should be enamoured and elevate to god-like status
or despise and lower to demonic status. We have our own minds to use.
Gabriella Daniels wrote:
> Frankly, what did his mom provide after his dad ended up in the slam?
> Being a former member of the Black Panther Party, girlfriend could have
> suggested some still existing ex-members to bond with. Not everybody from
> BPP was demoralized after it was broken up.
As a researcher and writer of Black Panther Party women's and
community program history and
as a black woman, I have to to say I find this question pretty
insulting to Afeni Shakur. Why don't you ask HER what she provided or
tried to provide and then post that information to
the group so we can all have informed discussion? Why is there the
implication that she didn't? I think we should all be about the business
of getting factual information before we start criticizing people for
their actions. In fact, Tupac DID have relations with former BPP members,
including his godfather, Geronimo Pratt. Why is the outcome of his life
placed on her shoulders? Additionally, why is his father absolved from
responsibility just because he goes to prison? There are many fathers and
mothers who remained a part of their childrens' lives while they were
imprisoned.
> My mother tried to provide Big Brothers. She encouraged her sons to go
> out for baseball and football. The male-headed family down the street
> took my brothers camping and fishing. One brother, unfortunately, is a
> dog. The other brother is doing well and preparing to get married early
> next year. Go figure.
Just goes to show us life is more complex than some might think. Instead
of getting caught in this male-headed female-headed revolving door
argument, maybe we should use this instance to read and think about the
continuum of the social predicament of black youth in this country from
the 60s through now, at least. Like so many people have already said on
this newsgroup, Tupac's death is only one in a continuum. So why aren't we
trying to figure out the history of these issues, planning, and acting
on the plans instead of sitting around chomping our bits about whether
2Pac was good or bad? At some point we have to move away from the specific
and try to impact lives at a wider level. But we can't do that without
figuring out what people have already tried to do. The Black Panther Party
(especially the women) developed over 50 community programs between 1966
and 1982, many of which were specifically devoted to Teens and young
adults (employment opportunities, math and english tutoring programs,
martial arts, music and dance classes, peer counseling, etc.)
> But there have been guys who have gotten away from that game before it
> killed them. Screw whether Jesse/Calvin/Farrakhan would have personally
> saved him. That's not their job. Hell, he could have saved himself. The
> Life went to his head. Fact of the matter is he thought he could beat the
> clock, and guess what...time ran the f--k out. Don't say brother man
> didn't have plenty of hints from the Universe that days were ticking
> away...
HInts he did have. Unfortunately he didn't have the mental strength to
heed them.
> By the way, did he ever mention that little 6-year-old kid who got killed
> while shots were exchanged during a community fair in Marin City three
> years ago? Him and his posse and the Marin City homeboys doing "The Wild
> Wild West"?
Let's do some research to see.I know that initially he and his
half-brother were arrested then released because of a lack of evidence.
> > He is VERY inteligent
> > He is extremly talented
> > He is socially conscous
>
> If he was, it is a waste. However, from reports about this young man, he
> certainly didn't have what you say he possessed. Let's say this: he tried
> to wear many masks underneath that real face of his.
>
> > He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
>
> Where? When? What? Who? I'm not trying to make a joke, but I've heard
> nothing of this.
Let's question WHY we haven't heard anything about this. I think it's too
easy and dangerous to assume he hasn't. I can think of a particular
instance this year (February 17, 1996) when the Dr. Huey P. Newton
Foundation hosted a Youth Conference in Oakland at Castlemont High, for
which 2Pac donated several things for the youth involved. I can tell you
one thing, those kids' faces ---AND their parents'--- lit up when they
found out he had sent those things specifically for them. Call it
promotion if you want, but it made a difference to them as PEOPLE. And
someone mentioned to me that he was recently involved in encouraging young
folk (his fans) to vote at the local community level.
> In other words, he believed the hype about his preposterous version of
> black masculinity. Like Puffy, Biggie, Snoop and the rest of these hoods,
> and the brothers (and EVEN THE WHITE GUYS) who buy their records.
>
> I'm really tired of hearing about 'hard' brothers who are so busy sniffing
> their own cum that they have no feelings about their impact on others:
> male, female, children or aged. It's too bad his mama has to face burying
> him, instead of the other way around. But let's face it: hundreds of
> mamas across the country are in this predicament.
Agreed. I think there's too much machismo, disrespect and ignorance in
this SOCIETY across the board. So let's use this as a point of departure
to have a meaningful DIALOGUE about media image, "negative" lyrics,
how this stuff DOES impact public policy whether we like it or not. We
have to shift this pattern of mothers AND fathers burying their children.
Let's go back to the 1970s pimp/hustler, gangster life glorification that
lyricists wrote about then (actually farther back than that). WHY is that
such an appealing image and how can we counterbalance those images to
present something as appealing and less violence-ridden to youth (AND SOME
OLDER FOLK TOO). Is there any dialogue between lyricists then and now? I
don't know. I know George Clinton interacts with rappers now but who else.
Responsibility is wide-spread. "It takes a village to raise a child" is
more profound than we think.
> Let me add that 'promoting' the myth of ice-cold, stone emotionless
> brothers is getting a lot of them in a world of trouble. Streetlife is
> not the only life in town. Really listen to some of those lyrics these
> guys are rapping. Don't buy into it: the self/hatred, the misogyny, the
> disrespect, the anger, the hopelessness. If a brother can get something
> out of it to confirm his sense of frustration, fine. Hell yes, they have a
> right to express themselves, and they should have an outlet. But I refuse
> to believe that this is the only right symbol of young black manhood which
> is worthwhile and should be passed on to the generations. As far as I am
> concerned, this Life begins to prey upon itself, much like a few hundred
> Jeffrey Dahmers preying upon black men.
I agree that there need to be alternatives.
> Too many brothers are accepting and incorporating the message without
> analyzing for its long-term effects, you dig? It's gotta stop.
You get no disagreement from me here. How can we help each other?
> (Last of all, Siddiq, improve the spelling or the typing or something,
> okay? Are you in grief? I am a writer myself.)
I think we can begin by giving each other *constructive* criticism.
Peace-
Angela
Angela Darlean Brown
Sorry I mispelled your name in my first post. An honest mistake I assure
you.
My comments were not directed to you when I said we shouldn't let media
dictate how we individually think about Tupac. I apologoze if they came
off that way. I was directing them to the
general audience. I think we agree here. I'm just saying we should ALL
gather the evidence and make up our own minds and not presume that others
should agree.
My point is not that we SHOULDN'T be
critical. I'm one of the most critical people around. At the same time,
however, I think people need to presented with evidence to help them think
more critically about their own positions -- in this case about what we
can learn from what happened
to Tupac.
>
> Then get off attacking me for words you are putting in my mouth. All
> the rest of what you are saying is fine. But don't use me as your
> whipping post. This is my opinion about Tupac: time ran out. He
> bucked alternatives, and I don't mean he should have become a tie and
> coat Republican either. He believed the hype. And I hope some young
> brothers on the street are getting it before time runs out for them,
> too.
I am not "attacking" you. I am responding to ideas that you shared in a
public forum. You have every right to your own opinion. We all do. And I
think many of your ideas are on point. I just think we each have to
analyze the effectiveness of the way we get out points across.
>
> And let me say a few other things about the Panthers that perhaps some
> people may not like. In time, the Panthers also attracted, along with
> all the dynamic leadership, some thug elements in the organization.
> Let's face it, some of the brothers were ex-cons. You can take the
> con out of the prison, but sometimes you can't take the prison out of
> the con.
Some of the dynamic leadership that wasn't ex-cons were corrupt. From the
very beginning the Panthers recruited "brothers off the block"
--drug addicts, prostitutes, thieves, etc. as well as middle-class
and college-educated folk. There was never an attempt to hide that fact.
In fact, Newton and Seale
were attempting to reach and politicize a group of folk who were never
courted by
previous organizations. There were those who reformed while in the Party
and those who didn't. The corrupt ones (non-cons and cons alike) had a
negative impact.
They also developed a deadly rivalry with the Black
> Guerrilla Family after George Jackson was killed in prison. This is
> nearly the same kind of factionalism that envelops the Crips and
> Bloods--without the analyses and the programs--with a focus on a
> too-tough black manhood, and who was too chickenshit to break George
> out of jail. I don't think it took just COINTELPRO to cause these
> rifts.
You are correct, it wasn't just COINTELPRO. There was internal
organizational
tension as well as external.
> It seemed that after the brothers were either in jail on or on the run
> with guns (that extension of the male member) that the sisters in the
> Party--like Elaine Brown--kept programs going and the energy pointed
> towards the community.
BPP history has to be seen in different phases. The emphasis on the
gun that was taken out of hand was 1967-1970. There were over 40 chapters
nationally and internationally and people were different everywhere.
There were men in the BPP who were NOT into the machismo stuff. A
major point: the women kept the programs going 1968-1982. They didn't
just step in when the men were in prison. Women were in prison also.
Additionally, there was a fair share of women that were into that gun
stuff too. That's why I think the IDEAS about "hardness" are as
important to talk about since their appeal crosses gender boundaries as
evidence that there is a growing number of young women in gangs as well.
When Huey Newton came back from exile, it
> appeared the energy began to flow towards him and only him, simply
> because he was male and a famous leader.
I agree. When he returned in 1977 the focus WAS on him-- to the Party's
detriment.
>
> > figuring out what people have already tried to do. The Black Panther Party
> > (especially the women) developed over 50 community programs between 1966
> > and 1982, many of which were specifically devoted to Teens and young
> > adults (employment opportunities, math and english tutoring programs,
> > martial arts, music and dance classes, peer counseling, etc.)
>
> I am in totally agreement with this statement. But what and who has
> taken the place of the BPP? Crips. Bloods. And nothing is being done.
>
Just as there are those who were attracted to the violent image of the
BPP, there are those who chose to value the positive. People are out there
on a daily basis like Joe Marshall
who heads the Omega Boys Club in San Francisco and hosts the "Street
Soldiers" program on KMEL MOnday nights 9-12 to field questions and offer
hands on help and opportunity to gang members and other confused teens who
don't know which way to turn. He invites numerous youth to challenge
themselves to change. And many take him up on the offer. And in his book
(Street Soldiers,
1996), he talks about being influenced by the BPP's programs. Let's look
for and give credit to more of those community-level, small scale programs
and people. The long-term activists in the Party recognized and valued
something many people don't think about today: change is about the
long-haul-- both socially and personally.
>
> > Let's go back to the 1970s pimp/hustler, gangster life glorification that
> > lyricists wrote about then (actually farther back than that).
>
> Iceberg Slim. The Mack. And don't forget, it appears that Huey
> Newton bought it, too. He supposedly wrote an article in the Party
> newspaper regarding his admiration for a blaxploitation movie...you
> know, the one with Ron O'Neal as Priest...the name of the movie
> escapes me.
Huey defintely bought into it. I also see him as a HUMAN who had
great ideas at one point in his life. I don't think
Huey is an untouchable. I have as much criticism for him as I do for
others. The movie you were thinking about is "Superfly". But that wasn't
the movie about which Newton wrote an article. He wrote a piece in 1971 on
the Melvin Van
Peebles' movie book turned movie "Sweet Sweetbacks' Baadaaasss Song" and
Melvin Van Peebles played the leading role. (Incidentally Mario van
Peebles debuted in that film, I believe).
Huey also forced numerous members of the organization to read "The
Godfather". Of course not everyone internalized things as
much as Huey and his sidekicks who were looking for that anyway. Again my
question is, why are people still attracted to the same types of images
people were attracted to then?
> Because it represents something exciting. The payoffs are fast and
> furious. Black youth are stimulated by these short-term thrills.
I think it's larger than a black youth thing.
Being
> a man is a lifelong commitment. I know folks have heard of only a few
> elderly hustlers. The thug life promotes a very short life span, and
> ^^^^^^^^
> a coolness about death and dying that is quite shocking.
>
So true. This is exactly the kind of information/idea sharing I had hoped
for. This is much more thought-provoking than just having each of us throw
our ideas out and say take it or leave it. I hope more folk think about it
and respond.
>
> These kids REMEMBER the Seventies profoundly. That was the era of
> Attica, the Patty Hearst kidnapping, the George Jackson slaying and
> the acceptance of blacks and other minorities being represented on TV
> and film: The Jeffersons, Good Times, Coffy, Cotton Comes to Harlem,
> Trouble Man, and etc.
I'm not quite sure how many of them remeber or even know about those
things in any real way. Maybe they heard about it through word of
mouth. I've talked to a number of Black Panther kids and folk coming
of age during that time (myself included, having been born in 1970 in
New Orleans, Lousisana) and they remember minimal stuff. I didn't
catch on to the meanings of the Jeffersons, etc until sometime in the
mid-to late 1980s. There
were also every day, non-sensationalist things going on that they
remember more than that I would think. We should definitely help younger
people recognize the varied meanings of these images and the impact over
part of the dialogue in some way as well.
Another View:
As some of my artistic friends say, those movies paid the bills for the
actors and actresses. I think that's what a lot of people in this
newsgroup are reminding us to think about for rappers. I would be the
first one to call for "morals, principles, group pride." But there is an
alternative reality for some folk.
Personally, I was bored to death by Mr. Rogers and I loved Speed Racer.I
get your point though. There is much to do and we have to be courageous
enough to do it-- as you so eloquently said yourself: Each One Teach One.
Angela
Gabrielle T. Daniels
On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Angela Darlean Brown wrote:
> I think we all should step back and think about why we look for "heroes"
> and "role models". My philosophy has always been to see people as human
> and take the best qualities of each person to inform my own ideas and
> actions. I agree with those who have constantly reminded the newsgroup
> that 2Pac was HUMAN. I don't know why we allow the media to dictate
> with which HUMANS we should be enamoured and elevate to god-like status
> or despise and lower to demonic status. We have our own minds to use.
I agree that Tupac was a human being. But I don't need the media to
dictate to me whether I should love him or hate him in death. I
didn't like the life he reflected, whether it was true to the
experience of other young brothers or not. It was his choice to
continue in that vein. And as I have said before, I believe that
street politics should not be the end-all, be-all life choice for
young black males.
> Gabriella Daniels wrote:
Hold it. GabriELLE.
> > Frankly, what did his mom provide after his dad ended up in the slam?
> > Being a former member of the Black Panther Party, girlfriend could have
> > suggested some still existing ex-members to bond with. Not everybody from
> > BPP was demoralized after it was broken up.
>
> As a researcher and writer of Black Panther Party women's and
> community program history and
> as a black woman, I have to to say I find this question pretty
> insulting to Afeni Shakur.
Why? I'm sure she DID provide black male models for her son,
including members of the BPP. You're jumping to conclusions.
> Why don't you ask HER what she provided or
> tried to provide and then post that information to
> the group so we can all have informed discussion?
Apparently you suggest you have that information and I don't. I've
read articles which have stated that his mother and father were Party
members and that they knew certain 'famous' members.
> Why is there the implication that she didn't?
Again, I believe you are reading something into this which, frankly,
is not there.
> I think we should all be about the business
> of getting factual information before we start criticizing people for
> their actions.
Fact: Tupac came out of Marin City, CA.
Fact: His environment was once the public housing projects; the
location of which have always been coveted by Sausalito developers as
too good for just n----rs to live.
Fact: His mother was once on drugs but has been clean for some years.
Now tell me something. Am I being critical of Tupac or his mother in
these statements?
> In fact, Tupac DID have relations with former BPP members,
> including his godfather, Geronimo Pratt.
Never said he didn't, although the knowledge of Pratt being his
godfather is new.
> Why is the outcome of his life
> placed on her shoulders?
You're missing the point. I stated what MY mother did with her two
sons to show that even good work could still turn out bad seeds.
> Additionally, why is his father absolved from
> responsibility just because he goes to prison?
Again, you read volumes into statements that do not exist.
> There are many fathers and
> mothers who remained a part of their childrens' lives while they were
> imprisoned.
This is true. But there have been other cases where there has been no
contact whatsoever. Again, I am not stating that this was the case
with Tupac and his father.
> > My mother tried to provide Big Brothers. She encouraged her sons to go
> > out for baseball and football. The male-headed family down the street
> > took my brothers camping and fishing. One brother, unfortunately, is a
> > dog. The other brother is doing well and preparing to get married early
> > next year. Go figure.
>
> Just goes to show us life is more complex than some might think.
Then get off attacking me for words you are putting in my mouth. All
the rest of what you are saying is fine. But don't use me as your
whipping post. This is my opinion about Tupac: time ran out. He
bucked alternatives, and I don't mean he should have become a tie and
coat Republican either. He believed the hype. And I hope some young
brothers on the street are getting it before time runs out for them,
too.
And let me say a few other things about the Panthers that perhaps some
people may not like. In time, the Panthers also attracted, along with
all the dynamic leadership, some thug elements in the organization.
Let's face it, some of the brothers were ex-cons. You can take the
con out of the prison, but sometimes you can't take the prison out of
the con. They also developed a deadly rivalry with the Black
Guerrilla Family after George Jackson was killed in prison. This is
nearly the same kind of factionalism that envelops the Crips and
Bloods--without the analyses and the programs--with a focus on a
too-tough black manhood, and who was too chickenshit to break George
out of jail. I don't think it took just COINTELPRO to cause these
rifts.
It seemed that after the brothers were either in jail on or on the run
with guns (that extension of the male member) that the sisters in the
Party--like Elaine Brown--kept programs going and the energy pointed
towards the community. When Huey Newton came back from exile, it
appeared the energy began to flow towards him and only him, simply
because he was male and a famous leader.
> figuring out what people have already tried to do. The Black Panther Party
> (especially the women) developed over 50 community programs between 1966
> and 1982, many of which were specifically devoted to Teens and young
> adults (employment opportunities, math and english tutoring programs,
> martial arts, music and dance classes, peer counseling, etc.)
I am in totally agreement with this statement. But what and who has
taken the place of the BPP? Crips. Bloods. And nothing is being done.
> > But there have been guys who have gotten away from that game before it
> > killed them. Screw whether Jesse/Calvin/Farrakhan would have personally
> > saved him. That's not their job. Hell, he could have saved himself. The
> > Life went to his head. Fact of the matter is he thought he could beat the
> > clock, and guess what...time ran the f--k out. Don't say brother man
> > didn't have plenty of hints from the Universe that days were ticking
> > away...
>
> HInts he did have. Unfortunately he didn't have the mental strength to
> heed them.
>
> > By the way, did he ever mention that little 6-year-old kid who got killed
> > while shots were exchanged during a community fair in Marin City three
> > years ago? Him and his posse and the Marin City homeboys doing "The Wild
> > Wild West"?
>
> Let's do some research to see. I know that initially he and his
> half-brother were arrested then released because of a lack of evidence.
From what I read and saw of reports at that time, potential witnesses
might have been silenced. I sure didn't like that message. A year
later, in 1994, the mother was still reported to be grieving and upset
that Tupac didn't seem to want to own up to his part in the incident
or even send or give words of condolence. You might try checking out
the Marin I-J or the S.F. Chronicle's issues for the lowdown.
This incident was engendered by the rumor that Tupac had dissed Marin
City on a talk show as being a place where only druggies and welfare
recipients lived. This rumor was reportedly exposed as one of those
urban legends but the 'hood bought it anyway, with some elements
feeling mighty pissed at being dissed.
> > > He is VERY inteligent
> > > He is extremly talented
> > > He is socially conscous
> >
> > If he was, it is a waste. However, from reports about this young man, he
> > certainly didn't have what you say he possessed. Let's say this: he tried
> > to wear many masks underneath that real face of his.
Let me rephrase that.
'He tried to wear many masks to hide that real face of his.'
> > > He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
> >
> > Where? When? What? Who? I'm not trying to make a joke, but I've heard
> > nothing of this.
>
> Let's question WHY we haven't heard anything about this. I think it's too
> easy and dangerous to assume he hasn't. I can think of a particular
> instance this year (February 17, 1996) when the Dr. Huey P. Newton
> Foundation hosted a Youth Conference in Oakland at Castlemont High, for
> which 2Pac donated several things for the youth involved. I can tell you
> one thing, those kids' faces ---AND their parents'--- lit up when they
> found out he had sent those things specifically for them. Call it
> promotion if you want, but it made a difference to them as PEOPLE. And
> someone mentioned to me that he was recently involved in encouraging young
> folk (his fans) to vote at the local community level.
Okay. I stand corrected. However, I would have liked to have seen or
heard something regarding peace with Qa'id's mother, a recognition of
what the thug life really represents, some prayers and provision for
her or her family. He was going at it a bit sideways.
> Let's go back to the 1970s pimp/hustler, gangster life glorification that
> lyricists wrote about then (actually farther back than that).
Iceberg Slim. The Mack. And don't forget, it appears that Huey
Newton bought it, too. He supposedly wrote an article in the Party
newspaper regarding his admiration for a blaxploitation movie...you
know, the one with Ron O'Neal as Priest...the name of the movie
escapes me.
> WHY is that
> such an appealing image and how can we counterbalance those images to
> present something as appealing and less violence-ridden to youth (AND SOME
> OLDER FOLK TOO).
Because it represents something exciting. The payoffs are fast and
furious. Black youth are stimulated by these short-term thrills. Being
a man is a lifelong commitment. I know folks have heard of only a few
elderly hustlers. The thug life promotes a very short life span, and
^^^^^^^^
a coolness about death and dying that is quite shocking.
> Is there any dialogue between lyricists then and now? I
> don't know. I know George Clinton interacts with rappers now but who else.
Isaac Hayes might be another.
> Responsibility is wide-spread. "It takes a village to raise a child" is
> more profound than we think.
These kids REMEMBER the Seventies profoundly. That was the era of
Attica, the Patty Hearst kidnapping, the George Jackson slaying and
the acceptance of blacks and other minorities being represented on TV
and film: The Jeffersons, Good Times, Coffy, Cotton Comes to Harlem,
Trouble Man, and etc.
Some of the messages engendered by these movies, songs and shows were
not the best. I used to babysit for a white family and the parents
insisted that the boys watch Misterogers. No cartoons. No Speed
Racer. Those were the rules. The TV was off for them at 7 p.m. Some
of us plunked our kids in front of the TV and some of their
brains were either emptied or scrambled.
Turn the TV off. Put some alternative music on other than rap. Tell
them to read a book each week and at the end of the week, discuss it
with them. At least, that's what I plan to do if and when I have a
child.
> I agree that there need to be alternatives.
>
> > Too many brothers are accepting and incorporating the message without
> > analyzing for its long-term effects, you dig? It's gotta stop.
>
> You get no disagreement from me here. How can we help each other?
Each one teach one. I've done it with my sisters and brothers and
nieces and nephews. We should not give up on each other completely.
I will also say that parents should remain vigilant about who the kid
is seeing (friends), what he's wearing, and whether he's changing for
the worse. Sit with him/her and ask them, why you like this music?
What does it say to you? What does it make you want to do? How is
this so important to you? What is happening to you in school, etc.?
A lotta folks--middle class or not--are not doing this kind of stuff
anymore;that is, encouraging their sons and daughters to THINK about
the ramifications of what they are doing. They're more afraid of the
children they've borne rather than the other way around. No way.
Insist on your right to establish rules of behavior. Because you're
the mama/daddy, that's why.
My mother saw me cheering the cavalry one Saturday afternoon when I
was young and told me about the Indians. It made me feel funny about
doing all that cheering thereafter.
> > (Last of all, Siddiq, improve the spelling or the typing or something,
> > okay? Are you in grief? I am a writer myself.)
>
> I think we can begin by giving each other *constructive* criticism.
I figure a guy who has written for Vibe or other mags can do some
spellchecking by his lonesome and then use the dictionary for the
final draft. Stuff is embarrassing in my view. I could have checked
that he was feeling bad having known Tupac...but I have respect for
the word and I wanted to know why I was getting this unbelievable
feedback of typos and misspellings.
Roxanne
On Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:15:12 GMT, mpry...@mail.idt.net (Michael
Pryor) wrote:
>ro...@tiac.net (Roxanne) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:14:20 GMT, Trey Harris
>><jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you, Siddiq, for portraying Tupac exactly the way that he
>>>is. So much talent & potential but he wastes it on "Thug Life".
>>>
>>> We talked about this in class (Sociology 329, Race & Ethnicity)
>>>and found that a lot of people don't like Tupac because he doesn't conform
>>>to mainstream "values". He's arrogant, cocky, sometimes vulgar, sometimes
>>>violent and *SUCCESSFUL*. That last part is what scares mainstream
>>>America.
>
>>Wise up sweetheart...mainstream America is'nt hardly pressed by Tupac
>>Shakur...he is a blip on a gnat's ass where they are concerned and the
>>ultimate media moll when it comes to confirming the ignorant fears of
>>certain groups about young black men.
>
>>I have no sympathy for that fool...none at all. He's got "Thug Life"
>>emblazoned on his chest...like a damn bullseye...and what the fu*k
>>has he done for his community that deserves our allegiance? Made a
>>few thousand selling "studio gansta" nonsense to kids who don't know
>>squat about his middle class upbringing. You call that success? More
>>like volunteer slavery...of the mind.
>
>>The image that Tupac portrays is an affront to black manhood...and if
>>black men are judging themselves by his "Thug Life" credo then our
>>community is sincerely fu*ked! Yeah right...please carry guns...talk
>>much trash...get shot up by other members of your own community.
>>Yeah...the guy's a real HERO! Stop deluding yourself and wake the
>>hell up. TUPAK IS AN ENTERTAINER!!! That is all! Nothing
Thank you bruh! I wonder why my message no longer appears on this
thread though...mmmmm? Ghosts in the machine?
Peace.
Roxanne.
---------"Lovemaking is the consolation for living in the body just
as art is the consolation for living in the world."
Helmut -- The God In Flight.
syd
Even the elderly of today are terrified of todays younger
>generation, will you someday be in the same position after you become elderly?
>--
> Dj Smoove D
> Undaground Therapy Music
>
>http://members.gnn.com/smoovedee/undaground/index.htm
>
>KeEpIn It UnDaGrOuNd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A very good observation. But when the younger generation see someone
like Colin Powell, they call him a "House Nigger" & "Uncle Tom". What
can one say against this type of mind set.
syd
Siddiq Bello
Fact:
Most of the folks who responded to my post dont seem to know anything
about TUPAC's music. Tupac's music like everything else about him was
divided, split into two seperate entities, there was his positive and
negative sides and they were diametrically opposed and warring with each
other. You must listen to the man and know him before you can
intelligently talk about him (or else your just another delores tucker).
My view:
By allowing Tupac's negative side to become the domanate side its a loss
to our race because its indicative of whats happening everyday in our
community. All of us especially men have this war going on and the
community which is supposed to help us win, DOSENT.
the common view:
The fact that you can point to negative aspects of tupacs life justify his
loss and the resulting weakening of the community (anytime the community
looses the potential for good its weakened). The fact that the media (VIBE
included) highlights the most sensational (and negative) aspects of tupac
are the basis of your understanding of him and his music.
The result:
Another brother, who could have, cant. Another brother who might have,
aint. VIBE gets to do anther Tupac cover. The media gets to portray
another blackman as a criminal, with apparent support of the black
community. People who never listened to a tupac song get to sound
intelligent bashing him using things they gleaned from CNN.
Peace
Siddiq
--
VIBE New Media ===>>>> the place I work
Siddiq Bello ===>>>> what mother calls me
New Media Manager ===>>>> what my cards say
212-522-1522 ===>>>> where my voice mail picks up
sid...@vibe.com ===>>>> the quickest way to reach me
www.vibe.com ===>>>> what I do when I'm not sleeping
Siddiq Bello
In article <alpha2-1309...@slip-14-2.ots.utexas.edu>,
alp...@mail.utexas.edu (M2S) wrote:
> And Trapped, Keep ya head up, So many tears, Lord knows, Young niggaz,
> The streetz R death row, Papa'z home, Me against the world, Life goes on,
> I ain't mad at cha.
>
> Of course, being a black male living in America, he expresses his (and
> our) anger and frustrations, and the daily challenges that a black man
> faces in tracks like Souljah's story, Hollar if ya hear me, Point that
> finga, Souljah's revenge, Fuck the world, Death around the corner, Only
> God can judge me, and Shorty wanna be a thug.
>
> He also represented the thug life (Hollywood also do) in 5 deadly venomz,
> Outlaw, if I die tonite and Cant C me.>
I sniped alot of good refernces and quotes
> As Tupac said in Last wordz:
> "I ain't racist, but lets trade places, trace the hate then face it.."
>
> Any black man living in America who has listened to Tupac's albums and
> can't make a connection is D_E_A_D.
^^^^^^^^^^^
READ READ READ READ
> Tupac, down but not out. The Souljah's story MUST continue, so Holla (and
> Pump ya fist) when ya hear him.
This is exactly what my point. Thanks for expressing so well. I get the
feeling from the post that most of the folks are like C Delores Tucker and
her crew , They dont listen so they dont understand and since they dont
understand they dont like it.
Gabrielle T. Daniels
On 16 Sep 1996, Siddiq Bello wrote:
> Fact:
> Most of the folks who responded to my post dont seem to know anything
> about TUPAC's music. Tupac's music like everything else about him was
> divided, split into two seperate entities, there was his positive and
> negative sides and they were diametrically opposed and warring with each
> other. You must listen to the man and know him before you can
> intelligently talk about him (or else your just another delores tucker).
Another blanket accusation folks...
I don't need CNN to telegraph what I feel about his music or
politics. Sheesh.
I have listened to the man. Can't remember much, but rap is not one
of my mainstays. Country-western isn't, either.
> My view:
> By allowing Tupac's negative side to become the domanate side its a loss
> to our race because its indicative of whats happening everyday in our
> community.
Wait-wait-wait-wait-wait.
The black community 'allowed' Tupac's negative side to dominate
everything about him?????
I don't buy it. As far as I am concerned, HE gave HIMSELF the
go-ahead to up the cosmic ante.
> All of us especially men have this war going on and the
> community which is supposed to help us win, DOSENT.
What war?
If you mean 'the war' the black community has always had with the
power structure harassing, demoralizing and sometimes literally and
psychically killing black men, women and children, then I agree that
all of us must struggle against seeming overwhelming odds. Daily.
But, if this war is simply about some bankrupt sense of black male
honor and rivalry, then I cannot support waging that kind of war.
> the common view:
> The fact that you can point to negative aspects of tupacs life justify his
> loss and the resulting weakening of the community (anytime the community
> looses the potential for good its weakened). The fact that the media (VIBE
> included) highlights the most sensational (and negative) aspects of tupac
> are the basis of your understanding of him and his music.
But that is how they are selling records, ain that right? On the
backs of our pain and degradation, ain that correct? This is why you
have a job with VIBE, right?
I'm sure that Bessie Smith and Billie Holiday pointed to aspects of
black life that wasn't so fragrant in their music. Billie was a bit
of a masochist; Bessie was way out there in her own version of female
machista. But a lot of their material was life-affirming and strong.
I don't see Tupac's music, at least most of it, in that aspect. I
take what I need of Billie/Bessie's music and leave the rest. Tupac
didn't give me a choice.
I don't buy my records to validate the gangsta/thug life. I buy my
records--or participate in a creative life, whether performing or
observing---to confirm my reason to live...GET THAT?
> The result:
> Another brother, who could have, cant. Another brother who might have,
> aint. VIBE gets to do anther Tupac cover. The media gets to portray
> another blackman as a criminal, with apparent support of the black
> community.
Well, tell me something, Siddiq. Is VIBE going to be the exception to
the rest of the media pack? Aren't you writing something about his
death or are you wasting bandwidth? I challenge anyone else writing
for even black mags like Jet, Essence, YSB (correct acronym?) to put
it down right.
Siddiq, apparently you are new to posting on S.C.A.A. I've learned an
important something about being on this board: the word "some" or any
other qualifier saves you from insulting a hell of a lot of folks.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Cockroach nebber in de right befo' fowl.
(The oppressor always justifies his oppression of the weak.)
TELL MY HORSE, The Rooster's Nest, by Zora Neale Hurston
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gabrielle T. Daniels-...@ea.oac.uci.edu-Gabrielle T. Daniels
"(She) knew the job was dangerous when (she) took it."--SuperChicken
Alan Mccabe
2Pac will be sorely missed by all true lovers of the art of Rap music.
--
--
R.I.P. Tupac
Rich Thompson
On 16 Sep 1996, Siddiq Bello wrote:
> Most of the folks who responded to my post dont seem to know anything
> about TUPAC's music. Tupac's music like everything else about him was
> divided, split into two seperate entities, there was his positive and
> negative sides and they were diametrically opposed and warring with each
> other.
Which side won the war, Siddiq?
> The fact that you can point to negative aspects of tupacs life justify his
> loss and the resulting weakening of the community (anytime the community
> looses the potential for good its weakened).
Even had he not died, the community would have already lost a lot of
potential for good with regard to Tupac (IMHO).
Peace,
Rich
Richard Thompson
Dept. of Psychology
McGill University
1205 Dr. Penfield Ave
Montreal P.Q.
H3A 1B1
"A man who is master of himself can end a sorrow as easily as he can invent
a pleasure"
-Oscar Wilde
M2S
In article
<siddiq-1609...@pool042.max21.new-york.ny.dynip.alter.net>,
sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) wrote:
:Fact:
:Most of the folks who responded to my post dont seem to know anything
:about TUPAC's music. Tupac's music like everything else about him was
:divided, split into two seperate entities, there was his positive and
:negative sides and they were diametrically opposed and warring with each
:other. You must listen to the man and know him before you can
:intelligently talk about him (or else your just another delores tucker).
:
:My view:
:By allowing Tupac's negative side to become the domanate side its a loss
:to our race because its indicative of whats happening everyday in our
:community. All of us especially men have this war going on and the
:community which is supposed to help us win, DOSENT.
:
:the common view:
:The fact that you can point to negative aspects of tupacs life justify his
:loss and the resulting weakening of the community (anytime the community
:looses the potential for good its weakened). The fact that the media (VIBE
:included) highlights the most sensational (and negative) aspects of tupac
:are the basis of your understanding of him and his music.
:
:The result:
:Another brother, who could have, cant. Another brother who might have,
:aint. VIBE gets to do anther Tupac cover. The media gets to portray
:another blackman as a criminal, with apparent support of the black
:community. People who never listened to a tupac song get to sound
:intelligent bashing him using things they gleaned from CNN.
:
:Peace
:Siddiq
:
Siddiq, I know how you feel. As a fan of Tupac from his first to last
album, it hurts me so much to see the way he and his music is being
portrayed by the white media. I try to rationalize it by saying that if
you are not black, then it may be impossible to understand what he is
saying. Maybe you have to endure racism to identify with Tupac's message.
But somehow, I feel that what he had to say is just what the white media
do not want to be heard, thus their attitude.
As a black man, I can say this, the first time I heard Tupac's music
(2pacalypse Now),it had a powerful impression on me. Here was someone
articulating my pain and frustrations of being discriminated against on a
daily basis. But then, he went further, he also talked about the anger
that we as black males inevitable feel. Tupac's music had many aspects and
they all meant a lot to me. It had the pure unadulterated positive aspect
such as Brenda had a baby, Keep ya Head up and Dear mama. But then there
was also the anger, the same anger that all black males experience. When I
play that aspect of Tupac's music, It provided a harmless outlet for that
anger. "Hollar if you hear" and "point da finga" comes to mind. These
songs in themselves will be disliked by the critics, because it lashes out
at the establishment. But I don't see how these are gansta rap. Tupac did
do some gansta tracks ("eg 5 deadly venomz") and a few on his last album.
But I think that they were just harmless endeavors. It's just like when
Hollywood make a gansta movie. There is always that part of us that want
to play cowboys and Indians. The fact of the matter is that the most
influential aspect of Tupac's music was the aspect which dealt with social
consciousness. The cowboy and indian aspect was just his way of grabbing
the mike and get dumb (have fun).
I was watching BET's Talk, and was very encourage by the way Russell
Simmons, Chuck D and some other brother were portraying him. At the same
time, it's very sad to see that there are blacks (like the BET presenter)
who still depend on the white media for their characterization of Tupac.
Black people, the white media is no friend of us. If you are not an
informed person, do not allow yourself to be exposed to the white media.
Siddiq Bello
A coward gave me a call today and proved himself a fool.
I just got a phone call from someone who claimed to be a cinematographer
from LA, who was angry that I saw good in Tupac. This coward (didn't give
his name) talked about how he knew "that suge guy" from high school and
went to all the parties and events deathrow threw. He wanted to know if I
believed what I posted. I post all my messages with my phone number, my
full name and email address so everyone knows that I believe what I say
and I'm not afraid to say it or defend it.
The guy had nothing intelegent to say so I got rid of him, He called back
and said "you'd better not come to the west coast". This fool is such a
joke, hey buddy if you think that Tupac is wrong that what are you since
your first reaction is to threaten. And by the way, I'll be on the west
coast, between San Fran and LA, from the 25th to the 27th staying at the
West Wood Marquis in LA and the Nikko in San Fran. Need any other info?
Siddiq T. Bello
VIBE New Media Manager
212-522-1522
--
Feel the VIBE
Log in right now!
IRC Server:chat.pathfinder.com
Channel#vibeonline
Chat with your favorite celebs [www.vibe.com/theroom/docs/chat.html]
mal...@execpc.com
>Even had he not died, the community would have already lost a lot of
>potential for good with regard to Tupac (IMHO).
That may be your honest opinion Rich, but that is the WRONG answer.
In defense of hope and possibility, I would say that Tupac, had he
lived, would not have been beyond the influence of positive change.
Negative forces and positive forces coexist whether we accept that
reality or not, that is the dialectic. Timing was key here. Tupac
took a wrong turn down "pseudo gangsta drive", stayed on the drive to
long, at the wrong time and got caught in a hallstorm of gunfire. Had
he lived, who knows, he may have changed for the better. Now if White
people, who have given African people 400 years of oppression, can
convince African people that they have changed and are no longer
racist, evidenced by this short 30 year time out from White terror,
then it stands to reason that Tupac Amaru Shakur, a 25 year old
misguided African male, if given a third chance at life, good could
potentially come from it.
Malcolm XXX
mhor...@lynx.neu.edu
In article <alpha2-1709...@slip-59-5.ots.utexas.edu>,
alp...@mail.utexas.edu says...
>Black people, the white media is no friend of us. If you are not an
>informed person, do not allow yourself to be exposed to the white media.
Hmm... And I thought it was the Jewish media that keeps on putting down us
white folk. Give me a break!, if more black people actually tuned into the
news and read newspapers, maybe the media would pay more interest to their
demands. Its a market economy that we are living in and most of the media's
"customers" are white so of course the media is going to tell us what "we"
want to hear. Black people should not turn away from the media (BTW, which
is not white as there are many asians, jews, and blacks in the business) but
become customers and demand more responsible coverage. Very few young
blacks have actually read a newspaper asides from the sports pages. This
needs to be changed. Instead of bitching and moaning amongst yourselves
everytime a black man such as Tupac gets unfair coverage, why not bombard
the papers with letters and Op-Ed pieces. The jews have been doing this for
years and it works.
...marq
Gabrielle T. Daniels
On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 mal...@execpc.com wrote back to Rich Thompson:
> >Even had he not died, the community would have already lost a lot of
> >potential for good with regard to Tupac (IMHO).
>
> That may be your honest opinion Rich, but that is the WRONG answer.
Look, this ain't 'Jeopardy,' because when it comes to opinions there
is no wrong answer.
> In defense of hope and possibility, I would say that Tupac, had he
> lived, would not have been beyond the influence of positive change.
Before he was shot in the car with Suge, he had plenty of chances to
turn around. Why didn't he take them?
> Negative forces and positive forces coexist whether we accept that
> reality or not, that is the dialectic. Timing was key here. Tupac
> took a wrong turn down "pseudo gangsta drive", stayed on the drive to
> long, at the wrong time and got caught in a hallstorm of gunfire. Had
> he lived, who knows, he may have changed for the better.
We can only hope, but the evidence doesn't speak for much.
Apparently he, Suge and some other gangstas nearly mixed it up at the
Tyson fight in Vegas. It just says to me that almost up to the last
minute of his life he was plugged into thuggery.
Time, like you said, wasn't on his side.
> Now if White
> people, who have given African people 400 years of oppression, can
> convince African people that they have changed and are no longer
> racist, evidenced by this short 30 year time out from White terror,
I haven't been convinced of that, brother. To suggest that black folk
have accepted this 'turnabout' from white folks is ludicrous. It's the
nature of the beast that white folks are going to be racist in varying
degrees, whether in their elected officials, their police services,
and their corporate entities.
> then it stands to reason that Tupac Amaru Shakur, a 25 year old
> misguided African male, if given a third chance at life, good could
> potentially come from it.
Like I said before, up to the last minute of his life, Tupac was
plugged into thuggery. We can only hope, but be for real, OK?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Cockroach nebber in de right befo' fowl.
(The oppressor always justifies his oppression of the weak.)
TELL MY HORSE, The Rooster's Nest, by Zora Neale Hurston
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gabrielle T. Daniels-...@ea.oac.uci.edu-Gabrielle T. Daniels
"(She) knew the job was dangerous when (she) took it."--SuperChicken
M.F.A. Candidate in Creative Writing*University of California, Irvine
Rich Thompson
On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 mal...@execpc.com wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:09:39 -0400, Rich Thompson
> <tho...@ego.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>
>
> >Even had he not died, the community would have already lost a lot of
> >potential for good with regard to Tupac (IMHO).
>
> That may be your honest opinion Rich, but that is the WRONG answer.
> In defense of hope and possibility, I would say that Tupac, had he
> lived, would not have been beyond the influence of positive change.
Okay, I think I either didn't state myself very well, or you misread me
slightly. I'm not saying that Tupac couldn't have changed his life, or
have been more positive or what-have-you. I agree with what you say above.
My point was simply that he had already wasted some (*SOME*) of that
potential. Some of his potential had already been permanently lost. Every
day you live, less of the potential exists. That was my point. Admittedly
poorly stated.
> Negative forces and positive forces coexist whether we accept that
> reality or not, that is the dialectic. Timing was key here. Tupac
> took a wrong turn down "pseudo gangsta drive", stayed on the drive to
> long, at the wrong time and got caught in a hallstorm of gunfire.
It's unfortunate. But had he not met the gunfire, I'm saying that the days
he spent on pseudo gangsta drive were wasted days. Which isn't to say that
his whole life was wasted, just that part of it.
I wasn't arguing a complete and utter loss of potential, simply a
diminishing of it. Every day you spend ruled by negative forces is one
less day you can spend working for the positive forces.
> Had he lived, who knows, he may have changed for the better.
I believe that he would have, eventually, yes.
> then it stands to reason that Tupac Amaru Shakur, a 25 year old
> misguided African male, if given a third chance at life, good could
> potentially come from it.
I agree. Good analogy...
pliesenberg
It was to be expected that, like with every celebrity that
goes untimely, his marketing image, work and a few interview
blurbs get packaged and glorified to financially milk him
one last time. And that works best when posthumous glorification
takes place.
I liked some of his music. He had an ear for catchy rythms, but
deep down I think rappers -although I enjoy some of it a lot-
are glorified DJs with limited real musical talent. Make no
mistake - they're creative, and must be clever to subsist in
a very competitive market, but they don't really excel by any
artistic standard. But $ rules things, and by that standard,
they are on top of things (although MC Hammer might have a thing
or two to say about this).
But catchiness and clever lyrics don't make him Ralph Ellison's
or Malcolm X' second coming, let's stay real here.
As to his real persona, most of the people who'll write grand
statements about him didn't know him any better than any of us
does, so realistically no one should try to even address the
subject what the real 2Pac was about. The only thing we can
state safely is that there was someone trapped in a public
image (that was most likely a marketing ploy) that became
his downfall. Some tough-cookie-wannabe with a gun thought
it'd be cool to decorate his belt with a public persona's
scalp. Pull a trigger, be manly, achieve greatness - as this
was part of the marketing message 2Pac unwittingly supported,
well, he got caught at the wrong end of it. I'm not saying he
deserved it, really, or that he was asking for it, but he
achieved success by promoting a distorted social picture
that seemed to influence someone a bit too much.
I just think that, whenever they glorify this thug life
idiocy, they should have images of twitching corpses in
poodles of blood running in the background. Show what this
stupid codex of honor leads to once someone puts a 5c
piece of lead in your brain.
On a sidenote, as a foreigner to US culture I always found
it funny how much the gangsta and the utterly white Old Wild
West have in common in so many aspects. It's odd that the
pathetic obsolescence of that value system isn't evident
to everybody. Maybe there's a sociology PhD subject in
the matter.
...paul
Steve Jackson
Gabrielle T. Daniels (gdan...@taurus.oac.uci.edu) wrote:
: On 16 Sep 1996, Siddiq Bello wrote:
:
: > My view:
: > By allowing Tupac's negative side to become the domanate side its a loss
: > to our race because its indicative of whats happening everyday in our
: > community.
:
: Wait-wait-wait-wait-wait.
:
: The black community 'allowed' Tupac's negative side to dominate
: everything about him?????
:
: I don't buy it. As far as I am concerned, HE gave HIMSELF the
: go-ahead to up the cosmic ante.
The way i'm reading it, Siddiq isn't saying the community allowed his
negative side to dominate, but Tupac himslef allowed it to dominate.
Siddiq, if I misunderstood, correct me.
: : > All of us especially men have this war going on and the
: > community which is supposed to help us win, DOSENT.
:
: What war?
:
: If you mean 'the war' the black community has always had with the
: power structure harassing, demoralizing and sometimes literally and
: psychically killing black men, women and children, then I agree that
: all of us must struggle against seeming overwhelming odds. Daily.
:
: But, if this war is simply about some bankrupt sense of black male
: honor and rivalry, then I cannot support waging that kind of war.
Hmmm... as I'm to understand, it's an internal moral war and the
communities we live in dont' always support our morals. Example, we are
a spiritual people. That's a fact. Most of us know something about a
church, mosque, or other house of worship. We know the basic principles
of these religions [they're all basically the same] and we know that
these principles are fundamentally "right." Yet, we constantly
struggle with issues of sex, violence, and drugs. Sometimes, we win our
struggle, sometimes we lose, but we're constantly struggling. And I
think that's what Siddiq is tryig to say of Tupac. His life and/or music
was a constant struggle. He wrote songs like "I Get Around," came back
with "Dear Mama," and then went back to "How do ya want it?" If that's
not a sign of some internal struggle and confusion, I don't know what is.
:
: > the common view:
: > The fact that you can point to negative aspects of tupacs life justify his
: > loss and the resulting weakening of the community (anytime the community
: > looses the potential for good its weakened). The fact that the media (VIBE
: > included) highlights the most sensational (and negative) aspects of tupac
: > are the basis of your understanding of him and his music.
:
: But that is how they are selling records, ain that right? On the
: backs of our pain and degradation, ain that correct? This is why you
: have a job with VIBE, right?
:
: I'm sure that Bessie Smith and Billie Holiday pointed to aspects of
: black life that wasn't so fragrant in their music. Billie was a bit
: of a masochist; Bessie was way out there in her own version of female
: machista. But a lot of their material was life-affirming and strong.
: I don't see Tupac's music, at least most of it, in that aspect. I
: take what I need of Billie/Bessie's music and leave the rest. Tupac
: didn't give me a choice.
I agree. But again, it's difficult to be strong when you constantly feel
you're being battered down. It was obvious Tupac wanted to be strong.
"Dear mama" and another song I can't remember affirmed those beliefs.
But he had been through, or was going through so much, and obviously, the
"Thug life" kept calling him and he decided to answer.
: : I don't buy my records to validate the gangsta/thug life. I buy my
: records--or participate in a creative life, whether performing or
: observing---to confirm my reason to live...GET THAT?
Well, hey good for you. We all by records for our own reasons.
:
: > The result:
: > Another brother, who could have, cant. Another brother who might have,
: > aint. VIBE gets to do anther Tupac cover. The media gets to portray
: > another blackman as a criminal, with apparent support of the black
: > community.
:
I'd just like to say, for the record, that i never was, never have been,
nor will I be a Tupac fan. I only liked maybe two or three of his
songs. Nonetheless, as an artist, I am disturbed by his death. I don't
believe he deserved to die-- not that way, not at his age. He may not
have been the most positive person in the music industry, but we will
never know when or if he would have changed. Also, his violent death
serves as a wake-up call to those who thought things were getting
better. They ain't. When you have artists being killed over lyrics
(possibly) then we have a society in a whole sh*tload of trouble. When
people can't distinguish between entertainment and real life, then we are
in serious trouble. We need to realize what's happening to and around
us. And we need to change it-- now.
Sorry Siddiq for taking a post directed at you, but I felt I had to
express my opinion and this seemed like an oppurtune time to do it.
--
"da One & Only"
Steve S. Jackson
(Writer/Author, Insturmentalist, Philosopher-for-hire)
Hootie Hoo!!!
sjac...@thunder.ocis.temple.edu
sjac...@hal.dental.temple.edu
http://thunder.ocis.temple.edu/~sjackson
Official I-Phunk Homepage:
http://thunder.ocis.temple.edu/~sjackson/iph.html
Dwight Holland
In article <32382B...@pacbell.net>, spe...@pacbell.net says...
> akira wrote:
> >
> > On 11 Sep 1996 20:30:45 GMT, sid...@vibe.com (Siddiq Bello) wrote:
> >
> > >Blackpeople,
> > >
> > >Have no doubt. Weather you hate him or love him, Tupac is the best
and
> > >worst in blackmen and his loss is a loss to our race.
-------------------------------
>
Tupac
first of all he does not represent the best of nothing only the best of
self destruction.
As far as a warrior, I seen no warrior in him. A warrior fight for gain,
Tupac fight was for ignorance and vainity. Warriors don't kill their
own, Tupic didn't give a dam, would of, could of, killed anyone at
anytime if he deemed it so. No don't make him out to be some sort of hero
because it is a disservice to us all. Or at least to hard working young
men who try to hold their families together, put food on the table and
make life work.
Those are the unnamed and unsung heros' of our time, not the Tupacs, they
come and go.
-
I rather die as a Man on my Feet Than live as a Slave
On My Knees.
Anthony C Sanchez
You obviously have no Idea what your talking about your the only sucka I
hear taling. BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYACH
Gabrielle T. Daniels
On 18 Sep 1996, Steve Jackson wrote back to me regarding Siddiq's
post:
>:> My view:
>:> By allowing Tupac's negative side to become the domanate side its
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>:> a loss to our race because its indicative of whats happening
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>:> everyday in our community.
> : Wait-wait-wait-wait-wait.
> :
> : The black community 'allowed' Tupac's negative side to dominate
> : everything about him?????
[...]
>
> The way i'm reading it, Siddiq isn't saying the community allowed his
> negative side to dominate, but Tupac himslef allowed it to dominate.
> Siddiq, if I misunderstood, correct me.
Your interpretation is not the same. Siddiq phrased it differently.
He is not being clear as to who or what is allowing Tupac's negative
side to dominate. Which is why I asked HIM to respond.
I am going to be student teaching composition this year, and if he was
in my class, he'd be losing points "on the prompt."
> : : > All of us especially men have this war going on and the
> : > community which is supposed to help us win, DOSENT.
> :
> : What war?
> :
> : If you mean 'the war' the black community has always had with the
> : power structure harassing, demoralizing and sometimes literally and
> : psychically killing black men, women and children, then I agree that
> : all of us must struggle against seeming overwhelming odds. Daily.
> :
> : But, if this war is simply about some bankrupt sense of black male
> : honor and rivalry, then I cannot support waging that kind of war.
>
> Hmmm... as I'm to understand, it's an internal moral war and the
> communities we live in dont' always support our morals.
What morals are you speaking of? and where does the black community
and its sons part company as far as moral outlook?
> Example, we are
> a spiritual people. That's a fact. Most of us know something about a
> church, mosque, or other house of worship. We know the basic principles
> of these religions [they're all basically the same] and we know that
> these principles are fundamentally "right." Yet, we constantly
> struggle with issues of sex, violence, and drugs.
I believe religion exists to keep people from going off the deep end,
because besides being spirit, we are body as well.
There's nothing wrong with smoking, drinking, and making love, but in
moderation, so that you are not mortally threatened, as well as the
lives of others.
Unfortunately religion sometimes goes off the deep end as well. We
aren't monks or nuns. We cannot be expected to follow the straight
line all the time. Sometimes, just the attempt is enough.
Unfortunately, Tupac was off the deep end. So is Suge Knight and the
rest of the hoods. What is going to pull them back? Only time will
tell.
Sometimes, we win our
> struggle, sometimes we lose, but we're constantly struggling.
Life is a struggle. But sometimes it is quite good, merciful and
rewarding. Did Tupac ever feel that way? Hmmmmm....
And I
> think that's what Siddiq is tryig to say of Tupac. His life and/or music
> was a constant struggle. He wrote songs like "I Get Around," came back
> with "Dear Mama," and then went back to "How do ya want it?" If that's
> not a sign of some internal struggle and confusion, I don't know what is.
But that is life. Period. Let's say he was in the throes of growing
up.
> : But that is how they are selling records, ain that right? On the
> : backs of our pain and degradation, ain that correct? This is why you
> : have a job with VIBE, right?
> :
> : I'm sure that Bessie Smith and Billie Holiday pointed to aspects of
> : black life that wasn't so fragrant in their music. Billie was a bit
> : of a masochist; Bessie was way out there in her own version of female
> : machista. But a lot of their material was life-affirming and strong.
> : I don't see Tupac's music, at least most of it, in that aspect. I
> : take what I need of Billie/Bessie's music and leave the rest. Tupac
> : didn't give me a choice.
>
> I agree. But again, it's difficult to be strong when you constantly feel
> you're being battered down. It was obvious Tupac wanted to be strong.
Tupac left Marin City a long time ago. How was he feeling battered
down? By whites? By other blacks? By the thug life?
Tupac was also a little guy. Yeah, recently he buffed up, but he was a
small man. Now, when he went to jail, there was talk, even on
s.c.a.a., that he had been raped or variously, that he had gotten
'married' in order to save his 'hard' reputation. What I am trying to
say is, Tupac didn't need to prove anything to me, like thug behavior
or a quickie marriage, to show he was a man to me.
Despite having his ear to the ground, he was still relatively living
good, better than some of the homies buying his records. Despite
being close to bankruptcy, Suge Knight bailed him out and Tupac went
back to the studio, pulled out a good record and was able to buy his
mother a house. The dude was not suffering, at least financially.
What Tupac really needed was a good black shrink and some kind of
religion...Christian, Buddhist, somebody...
I just got finished reading the Newsweek article on the Tupac killing.
Some of the unattributed quotes sound quite true to life. And why are
they unattributed? Because understandably, these sources figure there
is going to be a gang war because Suge lost one of his prime
moneymaking stars, and any lip on this situation may backfire.
> I'd just like to say, for the record, that i never was, never have been,
> nor will I be a Tupac fan. I only liked maybe two or three of his
> songs. Nonetheless, as an artist, I am disturbed by his death. I don't
> believe he deserved to die-- not that way, not at his age. He may not
> have been the most positive person in the music industry, but we will
> never know when or if he would have changed. Also, his violent death
> serves as a wake-up call to those who thought things were getting
> better. They ain't. When you have artists being killed over lyrics
> (possibly) then we have a society in a whole sh*tload of trouble. When
> people can't distinguish between entertainment and real life, then we are
> in serious trouble. We need to realize what's happening to and around
> us. And we need to change it-- now.
Agreed.
> Sorry Siddiq for taking a post directed at you, but I felt I had to
> express my opinion and this seemed like an oppurtune time to do it.
Siddiq should be able to speak for himself and explain himself.
Clearly. Especially on items of import as the Tupac murder. Your
opinion, Steve, is welcome.
Murphurd Warrior God of Courage
Siddiq Wrote:
>>loss to us. Where was the Calvin Butts and the Farahkans and all the
>>supposed "leaders" when tupac was screaming for help/guidence. Its our
>>fault he found it in Bishop, Suge Knight, and the Thug Life.
maybe it's this that should tell us that the "leaders" of the world
should be no more powerful than a rock or a backpack. Maybe those of us
who are "the crazy mother fuckers" should take the responsibility to stop
doing what is wrong, and fighting eachother, and start realizing that
only those with the courage and scroupals to stick by eachother should be
"leading" at all...
>>its rough, dangerous and lonely and the only people who have your back are
>>the "crazy mother-fuckers", the thugs and the hustlers. The "leaders" are
like I said, it's time for the underground, the "crazies" and the "thugs"
to begin a trend of redemption and forget about childish bullshit like
drugs and pimpin' and drinking...I know the only people who have stood by
me are people who have been cast from the mainstream...fired, etc...but I
will never let these friends of mine drag me into some so-called "wild
life" by drinking and druggin' and fiendin'...it's time for those of us
crazy mother fuckers to raise up...
>>Tupac is the best in black men because:
>>He is a warrior
I am a warrior, so I have to respect that on some level...but what does
soley being a warrior have to do with being the best of black men? Any
given group of people or team needs a whole slew of types...warrior is
only one of the jobs that must be done...
>>He fears no-one (least of all white folk)
I would say it's time for this bullshit to stop too..."white folk", (and
only when speaking of certain "white folk", say Newt Gingrich) are only
one of many manifestations of the demons that haunt us all..."black men"
are not some special group of people...everyone has some group of demons
that attack them...actually...not true...that's the problem...not
EVERYONE has to deal with those...Kathy Lee Gifford's a good
example...privalaged little snot...but at any rate, "white folk" is not
TRUELY the main concern here...(one of the main concerns being to stop
with the comments like "least of all white folk"...those kind of comments
proved unnessary and an evil when used from the other point of view in
the past...I'd say turning around and stooping to the same level could
never help...)
>>He is VERY inteligent
I wouldn't disagree entirely, but I'd have to say that being VERY
intelligent might include the vision NOT to get caught in a thug
life...but then again we all get pushed on by negative forces...possibly
the brutha just lost the battle...I'd have to meet him to know...and of
course, that won't be happening for a while now...
>>He is extremly talented
oh I would disagree...or at least it didn't show with that Death Row formula
for monetary success...point being that I never found Tupac's music to be
all that good...although the message was there, which can't be said for a
whole lot of rappers...
>>He has made attempts to improve life in the black comunity
How? (I just want to know what things he did...mostly to give me ideas
and educate me...in fact I do believe that he did do things to help...I
just never hear about WHAT)
>>With the right support and guidence from the black community tupac, could
>>have been the poster child for African Liberation. Instead he is more
>>concerned in fight Puffy and Biggy for the crumbs from record sales.
This was his mistake...obviously SOMEBODY out there deemed this mistake
punishable by death...ahhh but again the real point here is that it has
nothing to do with the black community...it has to do with choices, right
and wrong, and the entire community...I won't even comment on the
ridiculousness of the statement "African Liberation"...
>>Tupac represents the worst in blackman because:
>>He bought into and became the personification of "Thuglife", there by
>>promoting and proliferating its myth.
Totally true. And he was severely punished for this mistake...might it
be a lesson to us all...
The thing that I see in Tupac's death is this: There is a distinct
difference between being a revolutionary and being and evil
individual...and to think that evil is placed on one side of some
invisible line is ridiculous...it's just stupid to think that simply
being in the mainstream, and on the side of the government is soley what
constitutes being a good person...this is a point any intelligent black
person would make...but the same mistakes are made again in their
arguments, when the claim that evil is not concentrated on the
non-mainstream side, but on the white side. Fact is evil and good are
both spread amongst us all, and if you were to divide us all along the
true lines of good and evil, you would find us split in every group there
is...white people would be split up, black people would be split up, the
government would be split up, rappers would be split up, net rats would
be split up...part of the point of this journey is to realize where those
lines are, because they're here for us all to see, if you look...to
realize that one of your true brothers could be a white man or a Chinese
man, one of your true enemies might be right in your family...and these
things will shine through...the lines between good and evil will become
more clear, and as we hurtle along through time, those of us who fail to
envision the true divisions of good and evil will be trapped in the
middle and crushed...this is why I replied to this post....because this
is a man trapped in the middle...sees the good in Tupac, but if he were
to meet me, wouldn't see the good in me...I'd be "white folk"...these are
the mistakes of our anscestors, my brother, the mistakes of the Klansmen
and the slave traders, these false divisions of color and situation are
the mistakes of those who paid dear prices, and they should be mistakes
we have the wisdom not to make. It has become time to stop dividing the
good among us along false lines...this is the mistake Tupac made...he
thought Suge Knight was his friend...He was not, and Tupac was caught in
the middle between the good of whoEVER and the evil of Suge and his whole
crap, and he was crushed. Poor brother Tupac was crushed because he
couldn't see where the real lines were...we all need to rethink where we
draw our lines...
Murph
Low Down
A response and a close
My last word on the subject is take a moment and listen closely to the
song "I aint mad at cha" its playing now. The WORDS and the meaning behind
them (ask one of your kids to interpret) are the best and most chilling
representation of the Tupac.
Siddiq
Wayne Johnson
l...@lo.com (Low Down) wrote:
>A response and a close
Hey, this is great! I had no idea who owned this thread.
>My last word on the subject is take a moment and listen closely to the
>song "I aint mad at cha" its playing now.
Hmmm. Sounds like "Bitches Brew" to me...yeah, that's Miles all
right...oh, you mean on YOUR system. Gotcha. Threw me for a minute.
>The WORDS and the meaning behind them (ask one of your kids to interpret)
I don't expect them to listen to that crap. They're into A Tribe
Called Quest, and old school stuff.
>are the best and most chilling representation of the Tupac.
>Siddiq
You really want kids to grow up listening to the ideas and ideals of
an artist who poses as a gangster?
Even a goody two-shoes like Shakur?
Right.
Wayne "I'd rather have them interpret Sanskrit" Johnson
cia...@ix.netcom.com
"Despite all the implications...you can dance to a rock and roll station..."
Lou Reed, "Rock and Roll"
Malik
> Oh yea, Tupac is a real fuckin role model, a real fucking hero. If you
> relate to Tupac - you'll probably end up like him. I grew up in the much
> harder neighborhoods than Tupac and I didn't make the choices he made.
> Fuck that product of his environment shit. A real man controls his
> environment through his mind.
>
> Peace
word...just because you grow in the ghetto don't mean you have to act
like the violent uncivilized jungle bunny the whites want you to
be...Pac was obviously just a weak minded 85%er who wanted to make some
money by glamorizing violence and the "Thug Life"...I'm not gonna say he
deserved to die...I don't wish that shit on anyone...but like I've said
time in and time out...Pac doesn't deserve to be put on a
pedestal...name one thing he brought to the community or society in
general besides negativity...you can't cause there is nothing...he's a
martyr..I refuse to shed a tear for Pac..it's fucked up what happened to
him but I have no respect for a violence glorifying rapist with a
negative attitude towards women...all you female Pac fans...which was
the real Pac...the "Keep Your Head Up, Dear Mama" Pac...or the one that
raped a women in his hotel room and used the word bitch more than every
dog breeder in world history put together...think about it..he didn't
respect you, should you respect him?
Malik
Malik
> We as a people have to stop justifying this kind of irresponsible behavior
> by our brothers and calling it "cool" and "heroic". Showing our ass is
> not the way to "fight the system". Malcolm died the same way Pac did but
> he never misrepresented our people.
damn LOON, you droppin crazy knowledge in here....the funny thing
is...the way people look at it now...I think they see Pac as a bigger
hero than Malcolm...now that's FUCKED UP
Malik
Nishlord
Well, if Tupac didn't represent the best and worst of Blackmen before he
died, he does now. Fact is, the more ignorant members of the rap community
and the outside world now have a martyr/scapegoat of their very own now.
(Eazy didn't count, cos he got AIDS and we're not too keen to talk about
that, are we? And the countless victims of Black-on-Black violence don't
count either, 'cos they didn't have a record deal)
You like hip-hop? You just won yourself a bona fide martyr who lived the
life and died like Ivan, Staggerlee, Malcolm etc - defending the right to
do what the fuck he liked regardless of the state, the law, blah blah
blah...
Middle America? You just got yourself the perfect example of the state
Black people have gotten themselves into - a preacher of hatred, mysogyny
and violence who lived and died by the sword - ie, an uppity nigger who
got his comeuppance.
As for the more intelligent members of both groups, they'll see both sides
- but how outnumbered are they? You know the answer...
Just like Elvis, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, even Nixon for Christ's sake,
the conflicting extremes (in particular the more unpalatable ones) of
Tupac's character will be erased from the minds of most people, and he'll
be an empty vessel to fill your predjudices with.
Whatever, if there is such a thing as the afterlife, wherever Tupac is at
the moment, he'll be laughing his nuts off at the chaos he's left
behind...