"The Rap on Rap" by David Samuels
eric andrew wolfe
an article entitled "Rap on Rap," written by David Samuels. He's very
critical of rap music, or, perhaps more precisely, critical of what he
sees as the impulses behind rap's popularity. I'm wondering what
others might think of his arguments. I suggest you read it if you can
(no doubt your local library subscribes, especially if you're on a
campus somewhere), but I'll try to give some haphazard summary in what
follows, with generous quotation.
Basically, Samuels builds his argument around the observation that
rap's largest audience now is white: "although rap is still
proportionally more popular among blacks, its primary audience is
white and lives in the suburbs. And the history of rap's degeneration
from insurgent black street music to mainstream pop points to another
dispiriting conclusion: the more rappers were packaged as violent
black criminals, the bigger their white audiences became."
That is, rather than see rap's popularity as some sign of a new
multi-culturalism in the US--as some critics have done--Samuels argues
that "Rap's appeal to whites rested in its evocation of an age-old
image of blackness: a foreign, sexually charged, and criminal
underworld against which the norms of white society are defined, and,
by extension, through which they may be defied"
He then runs through a brief history of rap, focusing on some of the
major acts. Here are some "highlights." He claims that "the social
commentary of early rappers like Grandmaster Flash and Mellie Mel were
for the most part transparent attempts to sell records to whites by
any means necessary [my note: no doubt intended to be an ironic
reference to Malcolm X, as well as BDP]. Songs like 'White Lines'
(with its anti-drug theme) and 'The Message" (about ghetto life) had
the desired effect, drawing fulsome praise from white rock critics,
raised on the protest ballads of Bob Dylan and Phil Ochs." He points
out that the members of both Run-DMC and Public Enemy have middle
class backgrounds. On PE: "the root of Public Enemy's success was a
highly charged theater of race in which white listeners became guilty
eavesdroppers on the putative private conversation of the inner city."
On Schoolly D: "What Schoolly D meant by blackness was abundantly
clear. Schoolly D was a misogynist and a thug. If listening to PE
was like eavesdropping on a conversation, Schoolly D was like getting
mugged. This, aficianados agreed, was what they had been waiting for:
a rapper from whom you would flee in abject terror if you saw him
waling toward you late at night."
Samuels argues that "authenticity" is now an issue in selling records,
but that what this authenticity amounts to often is an image of "black
criminality": "P.R. releases, like a recent one for Los Angeles
rapper DJ Quick, take special care to mention artists' police records,
often enhanced to produce extra street credibility."
Samuels points to what he sees as rap's declining influence on "the
street" and proclaims: "Whatever its continuing significance in the
realm of racial politics, rap's hour as an innovative popular music
has come and gone. Rap forfeited whatever claim it may have had to
particularity by acquiring a mainstream white audience whose tastes
increasingly determined the nature of the form. What whites wanted
was not music, but black music, which as a result stopped really being
either."
In conclusion, he quotes from both African-American literary and
cultural critic Henry Louis Gates Jr. (now at Harvard, the article
tells us) and PE producer Hank Shocklee. Here's Gates: "Both the
rappers and their white fans affect and commodify their own visions of
street culture, like buying Navajo blankets at a reservation
road-stop. A lot of what you see in rap is the guilt of the black
middle class about its economic success, its inability to put forth a
culture of its own. Instead they do the worst possible thing, falling
back on fantasies of street life. In turn, white college students with
impeccable gender credentials buy nasty sex lyrics under the cover of
getting at some kind of authentic black experience. . . . What is
potentially very dangerous about this is the feeling that by buying
records they have made some kind of valid social commitment." Now
Shocklee: "People want to consume and they want to consume easy. If
you're a suburban white kid and you want to find out what life is like
for a black city teenager, you buy a record by N.W.A. It's like going
to an amusement park and getting on a roller coaster ride--records
are safe, they're controlled fear, and you always have the choice of
turning it off."
Samuels's final sentence: "The values [rap] instills find their
ultimate expression in the ease with which we watch young black men
killing each other: in movies, on records, and on the street of
cities and towns across the country."
One of the interesting things about this article, I think, is that
Samuels seems to be criticizing rap for some of the same reasons as
social conservatives (and much of my feeling here comes from my
judgement of the "tone" of the article): it's sexist, violent, and
profane. [By the way, all that follows under categories
"conservative" and "liberal" is designed as broad generalization].
Yet the slant he puts on this appears liberal, or appears designed to
appeal to liberal readers and their infamous guilt. It could, then,
be a very clever conservative anti-rap attack. After all, social
conservatives are already convinced that the genre is offensive, so
liberals would be a smarter target audience.
But despite my inclination to dismiss him, I wonder if some of his
points aren't valid. I just spoke to a friend of mine who works in
Hollywood. His company just produced that movie that's out now
starring Hallie Berry and Tommy Davidson, etc. (I think it's called
"Strictly Business" but I'm not sure--it hasn't made it to Bloomington
yet). The movie is basically a middle-class comedy, and one of the
main characters is a successful African-American businessman (I think
the plot is that he has to become more "street" to win the girl). In
test-marketing, the film did very well with the audiences, yet so far,
the movie's a flop. Very few people are going to see it. This is
being interpreted in Hollywood as suggesting that audiences are only
interested in seeing African-American-centered movies that focus on
inner-city life (e.g., "Boyz 'N the Hood"). They don't want to see
portrayals of "successful," middle-class African-Americans. This is,
of course, all guesswork by Hollywood pundits, but it could be taken
as a parallel to Samuels's argument about rap.
What do you all think? As a white listener to rap (and a fan from way
back in the Sugar Hill Gang days) I find the article very troubling,
but I'm having trouble sorting it all out.
Eric Wolfe
Dean Calloway
school in an area out west where there aren't a whole lot of us
(Blacks). Its amazes me now when I go home to visit my parents that
there exists this proliferation of white "thugs." These kids seem to
have adopted some of the trappings of an inner city life style without
the inner city.(ie they walk around in the Raider trench, cut their hair
into fades... or as close as possible... boom music out of their
cars...) They've "cartoonized" the experience, selectively picking out
the aspects of it that they find appealingly, and these always seem to
be those that are related to sex or violence. We seem to have been
beseiged by a flood of Vanilla Ices, all clamoring for attention from
the police yet knowing that if things get too rough, Mom & Pops will
protect them. This has bothered me fro a long time and I believe that
the argument merits attention.
Its almost akin to "You can take the boy out of the ghetto, but you
can't take the ghetto out of the boy... but you can get him to sell the
ghetto to some punk Mofo for $ 7.99."
Peace to Jah and All,
DCal
Charles L Isbell
I read his article when it first came out and I was taken aback. I
feel fairly confident in dismissing the bulk of his arguments because
I think he's just not getting it.
I mean, go back and read what he had to say about Boyz N The Hood and
think about how much validity is has. Then ask how he took that verse
for "Amerikkka's Most Wanted" out of context and how, with the next
few lines of the track inseted, his point is utterly misdirected.
On the other hand, he's right about that rap is being coopted, but
that's not news to anybody--it's inevitable.
Nevertheless, one can't compare the cartoons of 2 Live Crew or NWA
with the poetry of Public Enemy or even Ice Cube at his worst and try
to paint their popularity with the same brush.
In my opinion, his article had more to say about the White Rap Fan(tm)
than about Hip Hop.
--
Peace.
"Any Black man who's educated and speaks articulately is not
considered 'really' Black. It's the same reason people think
you're a dyke."
"People think I'm a dyke?"
"Take it as a compliment, I've learned to."
-Kyle Baker, Why I Hate Saturn
------
Don't just adopt opinions | \/ | I am Charles Isbell, Homeboy from hell,
develop them. | /\ | living axiom and anonymous absolute ruler
------ of the cosmos.
Kbev
>Eric Wolfe's post (absurdly long) merits attention. I went to high
>school in an area out west where there aren't a whole lot of us
>(Blacks). Its amazes me now when I go home to visit my parents that
>there exists this proliferation of white "thugs." These kids seem to
>have adopted some of the trappings of an inner city life style without
>the inner city.(ie they walk around in the Raider trench, cut their hair
>into fades... or as close as possible... boom music out of their
>cars...)
This seems, funny, if you tie it in with the "guilt" theory listed
in the original post, you could argue that the adoption of "Black" culture
as displayed through rap is an attempt by the white youth to punish
themselves for the years of suffering on behalf of blacks.
Personally. I can't stand the white punks who have the program turned on but
aren't down with it.
Keith B.
kbe...@athena.mit.edu
F3...@cunyvm.bitnet
Sad to say, its articles like Mr. Samuels and others who keep perpetuating
many myths about rap. The media has totally disembodied rap from the
culture from which it sprang forth (ie. Hip-Hop - ie. New York urban youth
culture)Obviously, it's grown far beyond that(not neccessarily for the
better in my opinion) but I want to point out that It was NEVER just a
Black thing. The originators of the artform were also many Latin/Puerto
Rican performers. Several of the great graffitti king were white including
Tracy 168 and SEEN. It wasn't a BLACK thing, it was a GHETTO thing. That
meant that it didn't matter if you were black, Hispanic, or Yugoslavian.
If you grew up in the area, you knew the culture. There wasn't this
whole "It's a black thing mentality". Unlike other cities in America,
Black and Latin kids grow up in the SAME neighborhoods with the SAME
interests. We were all into the same scene. It was the MEDIA that
erroneously equated inner-city with black. It's a damn shame that we
are not divided over something that once signified unity to many.
to quote an old phrase from the immortal
Grand Master Melle Mel:
"Red, yellow, black, white, or brown, in our
own way we can all get down. Just take your time
and enjoy yourself and you'll rock as good as anyone
else."
Peace, Love, and Happiness
from the High Priestess of Hip-Hop
None of Ya Bizness
o Sit Dave Samuels in a room, then
o Shove some 25 inch speakers right close to him
o Play Public Enemy for 24 hours straight with the volume
turned up to 9 (on a 10 scale, we don't want to blow the speakers)
o then
o Turn off the PE
o Wait 5 minutes
o Play Vanilla Ice for 24 hours straight with the volume
turned up to 9 (on a 10 scale)
o then
We won't have to hear any more from him, because HE won't be able to hear
anymore.
"Bring your Mother...word to tha Noize!"
Shout on grape juice,
--
Malcolm Diallo Moore #-----o_______o--o-o-o-\ #
Computer Information Services .___| |_| `'''''''| .___|
Association of Computer Machinery | House Train | |
mmo...@ux.acs.umn.edu | r--------------p |##|
mmo...@donald.cs.umn.edu____________________`O#O#O\--------------/O#O#O'__`O#O#
* I am Elmer J Fudd. Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht. *
soren--Ms. Jackson if you're nasty
amount. It's always been clear to me that Public Enemy is much more
popular among whites than just about anyone (white or black, pro or anti-
rap) would like to admit, and yes, mass popularity means mass co-optation.
Organization: The Erland Cult
References: <1991Nov13.0...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
Xref: cs.utexas.edu soc.culture.african.american:9503 alt.rap:565
On the other hand, I wonder how much it has to do with race. In the last
few years, I've seen exactly the same thing happen with "alternative"
rock (roughly, the stuff that gets played on white college radio stations).
It's been really depressing, watching the old rallying cries being turned
into advertising slogans, the culture being turned into a series of fashion-
statements, inspired amatuers turning into (often very rich) workaday
professionals, and in general just watching the huge amounts of money
that is now being flung around kill the original impulse to make music
and communicate--the impulse that made it all worth while in the first
place.
Isn't this what Samuels is saying is happening to rap? If so, he's right,
and it's inevitable. Selling "authenticity" to the suburbs is an old
game, and there isn't an awful lot one can do about it except waiting for
the next wave of misfits who have something real to say, and who feel
strongly enough about it that they won't try to kill it by making it
conform to someone else's stereotypes.
Or better yet, don't wait--say it yourself.
--
"How could I dance with another/When I saw him standing there" --Tiffany
soren f petersen : i AM NOT
spet...@peruvian.utah.edu : THE university OF utah
Dang. Utah always gets everything first. -- R o d Johnson
Neal Johnson
>David Samuels has some definite points, although he goes overboard a fair
>amount. It's always been clear to me that Public Enemy is much more
>popular among whites than just about anyone (white or black, pro or anti-
>rap) would like to admit, and yes, mass popularity means mass co-optation.
>Organization: The Erland Cult
>References: <1991Nov13.0...@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>
>Xref: cs.utexas.edu soc.culture.african.american:9503 alt.rap:565
>
>On the other hand, I wonder how much it has to do with race. In the last
>few years, I've seen exactly the same thing happen with "alternative"
>rock (roughly, the stuff that gets played on white college radio stations).
>
>It's been really depressing, watching the old rallying cries being turned
>into advertising slogans, the culture being turned into a series of fashion-
>statements, inspired amatuers turning into (often very rich) workaday
>professionals, and in general just watching the huge amounts of money
>that is now being flung around kill the original impulse to make music
>and communicate--the impulse that made it all worth while in the first
>place.
>
>Isn't this what Samuels is saying is happening to rap? If so, he's right,
>and it's inevitable. Selling "authenticity" to the suburbs is an old
>game, and there isn't an awful lot one can do about it except waiting for
>the next wave of misfits who have something real to say, and who feel
>strongly enough about it that they won't try to kill it by making it
>conform to someone else's stereotypes.
>
I don't know if this is strictly a phenomenon of American culture, but
a lot of music which began out some social/cultural/political roots
has been turned into simply a commodity to be sold. I was in the UK in
1977 as the punk movement started up. There it was a working class
youth reaction to the fact that they didn't have a future - to quote
Mr. Rotten. By the time punk came to the US it was a fashion statement
worn by bored middle and upper-class youth. A lot of cultural and
political statements seem to turn into merely fashion in this country.
I don't want to talk conspiratorially, but... If something becomes
popular, despite our economic system, then the system adopts it,
remolds it into a product and sells it - usually to people outside the
context where it arose. And since they are outside the context - white
folks in suburbs versus people of color in the inner city - they cannot
adopt anything more than the look - the superficial veneer. There are
the rare people like Public Enemy, who despite popularity and being part
of the system - at least the music industry system - can continue to
say something significant - though some comments in this group
suggest that a few see PE beginning to soften the message with their
new album (to sell more records...) Vanilla Ice and ...Hammer are the
norms, not the exceptions. Some of us will keep seeking out what ever
new forms arise, as the old forms turn into Post Tosties for the masses.
Check out the album - The Myth of Rock - by Consolidated
for an overview of this very subject.
"Product + Promotion = Profit" - Consolidated
============================================================================
name: Neal Johnson "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
mail: n...@apple.COM "Love is the law, love under will."
phone: (408) 974-6246
disclaimer: Everything stated here is disclaimed by all.
============================================================================
Lloyd T Jones
I read but very seldom respond to this news group, but I found this
article particularly interesting. But before I start, this is not a flame or
meant to be personal, but hopefully a meaningful discussing as I believe this
newsgroup was intended to promote.
In reading your article, I feel that Mr. Samuels not only hits the nail
on the head, but points at a bigger problem: American attitudes are still
basically racist. Whites don't understand and are afraid of blacks and the
so called Black Experience.
ewo...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (eric andrew wolfe) writes:
>In the latest issue of The New Republic (November 11, 1991), there's
>an article entitled "Rap on Rap," written by David Samuels. He's very
>critical of rap music, or, perhaps more precisely, critical of what he
>sees as the impulses behind rap's popularity. I'm wondering what
>others might think of his arguments. I suggest you read it if you can
>(no doubt your local library subscribes, especially if you're on a
>campus somewhere), but I'll try to give some haphazard summary in what
>follows, with generous quotation.
>
>Basically, Samuels builds his argument around the observation that
>rap's largest audience now is white: "although rap is still
>proportionally more popular among blacks, its primary audience is
>white and lives in the suburbs. And the history of rap's degeneration
>from insurgent black street music to mainstream pop points to another
>dispiriting conclusion: the more rappers were packaged as violent
>black criminals, the bigger their white audiences became."
No suprise here. Since most whites are isolated from blacks in this country,
most of what they see of blacks is thru the media. And blacks are still
protrayed as violent, hostile, and dangerous for the most part. The rappers
therefore provide a level of comfort in that they comform to the image that
white people already have. I find that most people are happier when their
beliefs aren't challenged, but re-enforced.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He who pays the piper, calls the tune....
>was not music, but black music, which as a result stopped really being
>either."
>In conclusion, he quotes from both African-American literary and
>cultural critic Henry Louis Gates Jr. (now at Harvard, the article
>tells us) and PE producer Hank Shocklee. Here's Gates: "Both the
>rappers and their white fans affect and commodify their own visions of
>street culture, like buying Navajo blankets at a reservation
>road-stop. A lot of what you see in rap is the guilt of the black
>middle class about its economic success, its inability to put forth a
>culture of its own. Instead they do the worst possible thing, falling
>back on fantasies of street life. In turn, white college students with
Here I think he may be a little off base. How does he know if middle-class
blacks are having fantasies of street life? If the black middle class is a
true American middle class, they most likely don't even care about such things,
other than it might might it harder for them to be accepted into middle class
America for themselves. Instead their white colleages will expect them to be
more like the Blacks they see protrayed in the media, and less like themselves,
e.g., white America.
>impeccable gender credentials buy nasty sex lyrics under the cover of
>getting at some kind of authentic black experience. . . . What is
>potentially very dangerous about this is the feeling that by buying
>records they have made some kind of valid social commitment." Now
>Shocklee: "People want to consume and they want to consume easy. If
>you're a suburban white kid and you want to find out what life is like
>for a black city teenager, you buy a record by N.W.A. It's like going
>to an amusement park and getting on a roller coaster ride--records
>are safe, they're controlled fear, and you always have the choice of
>turning it off."
Now this to me has the ring of truth, as does the the next paragraph.
I too live in Bloomington, so therefore haven't seen this movie. I probably
won't either. Why? From the ads, it looks like a very bad movie, one that
will be an insult to ones intelligence. Beyond that, I would think that most
white's probably don't want to see white people in black bodies. It's boring.
>What do you all think? As a white listener to rap (and a fan from way
>back in the Sugar Hill Gang days) I find the article very troubling,
>but I'm having trouble sorting it all out.
Just thought I'd blow off on an interesting topic.
Tj.
>Eric Wolfe
patrice a simon
> Rican performers. Several of the great graffitti king were white including
>Tracy 168 and SEEN. It wasn't a BLACK thing, it was a GHETTO thing. That
>meant that it didn't matter if you were black, Hispanic, or Yugoslavian.
>If you grew up in the area, you knew the culture. There wasn't this
>whole "It's a black thing mentality". Unlike other cities in America,
>Black and Latin kids grow up in the SAME neighborhoods with the SAME
>interests. We were all into the same scene. It was the MEDIA that
>erroneously equated inner-city with black. It's a damn shame that we
>are not divided over something that once signified unity to many.
this topic is turning into a social issue...whether or not
there are other minorities in the inner cities, blacks continue to
be long term occupants (joined by hispanics - but then there's a
language barrier there). unity in any inner city between groups
(or even within the black population) has always failed (if ever
attempted)...music seems to bridge the gap tremendously especially
with latin rap and dance hall music...
i don't know why whites would be down with black-trends (probably
deviance), but nothing much ever becomes of it...people grow old. however,
i would say that rap is a black-thing (not inner city or whatever else)
because when society as a whole moves on to the next big thing, it will
be blacks that continue to foster rap (historic example - r&b music)
if the process of production was in the hands of blacks (not just
a few blacks, but a substantial number), then maybe we could go on from
there...
i can see what ice cube was trying to say in "black korea"....here
comes another ethnic group making money off of blacks in the inner city.
and it's only business...i know it's not the korean's problem, but the
cycle continues with every new major ethnic group in america...
so when it comes to someone writing an article from the "outside",
you should always expect inaccuracies or differences in understanding...
after what newsweek did with rap (black rap vs. vanilla ice rap), that
magazine (and others) should be dismissed as sources of information.
and that's all!
patrice a simon
>
>No suprise here. Since most whites are isolated from blacks in this country,
>most of what they see of blacks is thru the media. And blacks are still
>protrayed as violent, hostile, and dangerous for the most part. The rappers
>therefore provide a level of comfort in that they comform to the image that
>white people already have. I find that most people are happier when their
>beliefs aren't challenged, but re-enforced.
>Here I think he may be a little off base. How does he know if middle-class
>blacks are having fantasies of street life? If the black middle class is a
>true American middle class, they most likely don't even care about suchthings,
>
look at television...both "the bill cosby show" and "fresh prince of
bell aire" (quincy jones production) show blacks in extremely "white-success
stories", yet both are very popular...whereas movies like "house party"
which i think was very typical of black middle-class life were only popular
amoung that group...then there's a fine line between black middle-class, and
the inner cities, so that it's hard to say where a movie like "boyz n the
hood" lies...
>
>>starring Hallie Berry and Tommy Davidson, etc. (I think it's called
>>"Strictly Business" but I'm not sure--it hasn't made it to Bloomington
>>yet). The movie is basically a middle-class comedy, and one of the
>>main characters is a successful African-American businessman (I think
>>the plot is that he has to become more "street" to win the girl). In
>>test-marketing, the film did very well with the audiences, yet so far,
>>the movie's a flop. Very few people are going to see it. This is
>>being interpreted in Hollywood as suggesting that audiences are only
>>interested in seeing African-American-centered movies that focus on
>>inner-city life (e.g., "Boyz 'N the Hood"). They don't want to see
>>portrayals of "successful," middle-class African-Americans. This is,
>>of course, all guesswork by Hollywood pundits, but it could be taken
>>as a parallel to Samuels's argument about rap.
>
>I too live in Bloomington, so therefore haven't seen this movie. I probably
>won't either. Why? From the ads, it looks like a very bad movie, one that
>will be an insult to ones intelligence. Beyond that, I would think that most
>white's probably don't want to see white people in black bodies. It's boring.
>Tj.
would you see "livin' large" instead?...though different, both
vary from reality...and both are weak movies...a "boyz n the hood" or
"new jack city" is worth a lot more to society...
WERLING
Seems like pollution to me.
--
Andrew Werling awer...@nmsu.edu Pffff!
soren--Ms. Jackson if you're nasty
>In article <1991Nov13.2...@hellgate.utah.edu> speterse%peruvian...@cs.utah.edu (soren--Ms. Jackson if you're nasty) writes:
>>On the other hand, I wonder how much it has to do with race. In the last
>>few years, I've seen exactly the same thing happen with "alternative"
>>rock (roughly, the stuff that gets played on white college radio stations).
>>It's been really depressing, watching the old rallying cries being turned
>>into advertising slogans, the culture being turned into a series of fashion-
>>statements, inspired amatuers turning into (often very rich) workaday
>>professionals, and in general just watching the huge amounts of money
>>that is now being flung around kill the original impulse to make music
>>and communicate--the impulse that made it all worth while in the first
>>place.
>>Isn't this what Samuels is saying is happening to rap? If so, he's right,
>>and it's inevitable. Selling "authenticity" to the suburbs is an old
>>game, and there isn't an awful lot one can do about it except waiting for
>>the next wave of misfits who have something real to say, and who feel
>>strongly enough about it that they won't try to kill it by making it
>>conform to someone else's stereotypes.
>a lot of music which began out some social/cultural/political roots
>has been turned into simply a commodity to be sold. I was in the UK in
>1977 as the punk movement started up. There it was a working class
>youth reaction to the fact that they didn't have a future - to quote
>Mr. Rotten.
I was in the UK in 1977, too, but I was awfully young. Anyway, my
impression was that most of the British punk stars was much more of
a middle class art/bohemian thing than anyone wanted to admit.
There are some exceptions (I think the Fall are genuinely working
class), but not very many. To grossly oversimplify, class seems to
have the same function in Britain as race does here, and middle class
and upper class kids playing at being proles are rather analogous
to white kids here playing at being black.
>By the time punk came to the US it was a fashion statement
>worn by bored middle and upper-class youth. A lot of cultural and
>political statements seem to turn into merely fashion in this country.
Not just in this country. Popular music is, if anything, even more
of a fashion statement in Britain than it is here.
>I don't want to talk conspiratorially, but... If something becomes
>popular, despite our economic system, then the system adopts it,
>remolds it into a product and sells it - usually to people outside the
>context where it arose. And since they are outside the context - white
>folks in suburbs versus people of color in the inner city - they cannot
>adopt anything more than the look - the superficial veneer.
And I don't think there's any conspiracy. It's just easier to buy
someone a haircut and a vocabulary, than to buy him or her talent or
something to say. And most people like the feeling of living on the
edge at a safe distance.
>There are
>the rare people like Public Enemy, who despite popularity and being part
>of the system - at least the music industry system - can continue to
>say something significant - though some comments in this group
>suggest that a few see PE beginning to soften the message with their
>new album (to sell more records...) Vanilla Ice and ...Hammer are the
>norms, not the exceptions. Some of us will keep seeking out what ever
>new forms arise, as the old forms turn into Post Tosties for the masses.
Which only goes to show that genuine talent is rare.
(For what it's worth, I sold my copy of *Apocolypse '91* back--not
because of the "message", but because it didn't have the brutal
instrumental skronk of the last two albums.)
(I also always figured that "message" is overrated. I've run into
too many people who claim they like to to have their "ideas challenged"
and what they mean is they like to have their friends and neighbor's
ideas challenged, and they like to pat themselves on the back for
being so "open-minded". Often-times, these people are incredibly
narrow-minded. Figure that PE is always going to go through the
motions at the very least--they'd alienate way more fans than they'd
get if they tried to pull a Hammer.)
>Check out the album - The Myth of Rock - by Consolidated
>for an overview of this very subject.
Oh God, we just had this discussion on nm-list. Suffice it to say that
I always thought that Consolidated were incredibly superficial, even
on those occasions where they were basically correct.
Dean Calloway
Question: If you had a choice of eliminating one individual hip-hop
artist on the face of the planet, who would it be and why?
Rules:
1. Vanilla Creep and Hammer as choices are much too easy. Please be
more original.
2. EXPLAIN your choice (ie LL is not all that, Moe Dee is an old ass man, etc.)
3. Be rational. Eliminating the impact of, say, Special Ed, because he
gets all those really cute girls under eighteen that you were just
waitin' to fiend is NOT rational.
To start off, I'd like to get rid of Jeff and the Fresh Prince.
These two were alright as long as they were the younger version of Bobby
Jimmy and the Critters. Their recent work, howver, with the exception
of Summertime which was the jam, is weak. Anyone who has seen the "Ring
My Bell" video or heard it on the radio knows that Prince can't rap a
damn about anything except Freddie Krueger or Mike Tyson.
Honorable Mention: Salt and Pepa (I can't stand them... especially when
they try to come off as fine... damn, these girls oughta be drinking
Dick Gregory) and Run DMC (although they have tried to change both their
image and style - "What's it all about" was pretty cool, all I can
remember is that "You be illin'" BS.)
DCal
Robert Krajewski
I read his article when it first came out and I was taken aback. I
feel fairly confident in dismissing the bulk of his arguments because
I think he's just not getting it.
But what about the hyping of police records ? How do you explain
that ? And who's buying ?
Rap can be a little like speed-metal. It's perceived as a music of
extremes, so sometimes we get these "can you top this ?" trends. In
speed-metal, it's faster/louder/less melody. Look at rap. First,
Run-DMC was "hard." Then PE. But NWA were even harder. And there's no
shortage of cartoon gangstas and psychos ready to top the last guy. I
think that the Afrocentric angle can be a victim of this
cartoonisation, too, but since it's more a political and historical
thing, the commercial pressures to blow it up are less severe. (And
white folks are going to buy only so many records that call them, the
listeners, "devils," "spawn of Yacub," "cave men," and so on.)
Of course, an outside observer's ignorance (or, to be charitable,
imperfect knowledge) will confuse hype with substance. How fair has
the outside world been to the Geto Boys, for example ?
ch...@pomona.claremont.edu
necessarily listening to enjoy a black stereotype. Let's take the gangsta
style. Most people living in Compton (which as a community is a lot less
ravaged, then, say, the South Bronx), are not gang members, and want to live a
decent kind of life, For that matter, does anyone believe that NWA really does
everything they talk about? Or most gangsta rappers? The game is too fast and
hard for you to have a musical career on the side! Maybe Eazy was in the game
before he met IceCube, but you can bet he dosen't deal with that shit now.
And the intelligent ones out there like Ice-T don't want anyone else to get
in the game either. So maybe it's 10% memory and 90% hype. And if you aren't
from the community, the average black man or woman you know is not going to
resemble the gangsta style. So I don't think it's taken too much as a
stereotype. What I think people want out of rap is a thrill. Did you ever see
"A Clockwork Orange?" It's a movie basically about what rights does society
have over the individual, in this case to stop crime. The "hero" is Alex, who
leads a gang in a future London. They resemble the NWA image in a lot of
ways--they have a dress code, their own style of speak, they spend their time
getting fucked up and fucking other people up, jocking (and raping) hos. It's
like a white NWA, and there's nothing taken from a black stereotype in it. And
it's still popular among young white men. *Everybody* wishes sometimes that
they could just do whatever they want and not have to take any consequences. It
may be an evil thing, but it's not a black thing or a white thing.
--Carl "Libertad" Horn