1/2 Mile Long Ribbon Rail
Robert Gross
long ribbon rail used in the East?
Robert
Jaap van Dorp
cars of 50 foot.
Jaap
"Robert Gross" <robt...@att.net> wrote in message
news:3F365013...@att.net...
Michael G. Koerner
Regardless of how long the 'sticks' are on their carrier trains, many
railroads will 'thermite' weld them together in the field, making for
single rails of indefinite length that are only broken apart for
turnouts and signals. Many signal insulated electrical 'gaps' are
'glued' together, making them nearly as strong as solid rails on either side.
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
Steve Hall
FIRST mile would only have 3, but each one after that would have to have
four, would it not? The first at the 1/4 mile, second at 1/2 mile, 3rd at
3/4 mile, and 4th at the mile
--
Steve Hall
Commander - Lt. Col. Wm. M. Luffman Camp #938 SCV - Chatsworth, GA
Moderator - Georgia Division Sons of Confederate Veterans E-mail groups
"Phaedra Dragon" <phaedr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3ejfjv46bg93lgd6f...@4ax.com...
> I dont recall seeing any 1/2mile long ribbon-rail trains in Kansas.
> There may have been, but that is an awfully long ribbon of rail to
> work with.
> since 5,280 feet equals a mile - a 1/2mile stretch would be 2,640',
> and using 50' cars, would take around 53 cars.
> It would be possible, but still I think that ribbon rail used in the
> west is still of the 1/4 mile, (1,320'), lengths. When you think
> about it, the 1/4 mile length would be easier to work with than the
> longer length, and in every mile, you only have 3 weld per mile, once
> you get started welding, (3 permile per side).
> Past that, I dont think the railroads really care to go to the 1/2
> mile segment of ribbon rail, over the 1/4 mile segment, and the only
> reason I say this is cost factors involved with having longer trains
> of ribbon rail.
JCunington
>FIRST mile would only have 3, but each one after that would have to have
>four, would it not? The first at the 1/4 mile, second at 1/2 mile, 3rd at
>3/4 mile, and 4th at the mile
You're thinking rails, not joints/welds.
At reference point 0, you have a joint.
end of first rail, 1/4 mile, 1st weld
end of 2nd rail, 1/2 mile - 2nd weld
end of 3rd rail, 3/4 mile - 3rd weld.
end of 4th rail, 1 mile, joint, reference point 0 for next mile of track...
Jay
CNS&M
Wireheads of the world, unite!
Merritt Mullen
jcuni...@aol.comjkelm (JCunington) wrote:
And over a 10-mile stretch, counting the first joint, you would have 41
joints. 4 joints per mile plus 1.
Merritt
Merritt Mullen
Phaedra Dragon <phaedr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> correct. But if there is just 1 mile of ribbon laid, there are only 3
> welds. When that mile is joined to other sections, then added welds
> would be counted.
Nope. Assuming it is welded to something at both ends, there are FIVE
welds. Three in the middle, and one at each end. Draw a picture and you
will see.
Merritt
Jim
>
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:43:17 GMT, Merritt Mullen
> <mmull...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
> welds. When that mile is joined to other sections, then added welds
> would be counted.
Not to put too fine a point on this, I feel you are assuming that
the ribbon rail is produce in one long piece.
Mark Newton
>
> Not to put too fine a point on this, I feel you are assuming that the
> ribbon rail is produce in one long piece.
The practice employed here for many years was to flash-butt weld the
rail into approximately 1/4 mile lengths, and then thermit weld the
ribbon rail in situ - was/is something similar the case in the US?
(Note to Phaedra: Do you have a dead friend or retired relative who can
answer this question for you?)
James Robinson
>
> The practice employed here for many years was to flash-butt weld the
> rail into approximately 1/4 mile lengths, and then thermit weld the
> ribbon rail in situ - was/is something similar the case in the US?
Yes, but more commonly a portable flash welder is used, since they give
a more consistent result. Such a welder is seen in the photo in this
article.
http://www.rtands.com/oct00/welding.html
Thermit welding is still used to make repairs and for low volume
welding.
Mark Newton
>> The practice employed here for many years was to flash-butt weld
>> the rail into approximately 1/4 mile lengths, and then thermit weld
>> the ribbon rail in situ - was/is something similar the case in the
>> US?
>
> Yes, but more commonly a portable flash welder is used, since they
> give a more consistent result. Such a welder is seen in the photo in
> this article.
>
> http://www.rtands.com/oct00/welding.html
Thanks for the link, James - this method is becoming common here, as
well. I always found thermit welding a fascinating process, particularly
at night, but it's now mainly used as you describe, for emergency work
and glue joints.
Cheers,
Mark.
JCunington
>joints. 4 joints per mile plus 1.
>
>Merritt
Ah! I misunderstood. You're talking *continuous * welded rail, not one-mile
sections bolted together.
I drew the picture you suggested, Merritt. Forty-one joints is correct,
assuming you're welding the rail at both ends to existing trackage.
Merritt Mullen
jcuni...@aol.comjkelm (JCunington) wrote:
Actually, I misunderstood also. After I posted that I wondered if maybe
you were talking about a single piece of welded rail one mile long. In
that case, we agree that if it is made of 1/4 mile pieces, there are only
3 welds.
Merritt
Bill McCray
<mmull...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> Actually, I misunderstood also. After I posted that I wondered if maybe
> you were talking about a single piece of welded rail one mile long. In
> that case, we agree that if it is made of 1/4 mile pieces, there are only
> 3 welds.
All this discussion of the welded rail raises a question in my mind.
I have always thought that the small gaps between sections of rail
were there to allow for the expansion of the rails when they get hot.
If they are welded together, that allowance is gone. What keeps the
welded rail from buckling when it gets hot and expands?
Off-topic query: Are you the Roberts family researcher?
Bill
James Robinson
>
> I have always thought that the small gaps between sections of rail
> were there to allow for the expansion of the rails when they get hot.
With traditional jointed rail, you are correct. In fact, one of the
usual maintenance tasks in the spring was to send a person along the
track to oil each joint so it would slip freely.
> If they are welded together, that allowance is gone. What keeps the
> welded rail from buckling when it gets hot and expands?
Laying continuous welded rail requires a different technique. It is
placed at what is called the ideal rail laying temperature. This is
something like 20 degrees F below the maximum air temperature expected
in the area. Therefore, if the temperature where the rail is installed
is expected to range from -10F to 100F, the rail would be somewhere
around 80F when it is put in place. If the outside temperature is
colder, then the rail will be heated with propane heaters. If it is too
hot, the rail won't be laid at all.
The idea is that rail won't want to expand much on the hottest days, and
the ballast and weight of the rail and ties will hold it in place
without buckling. On the coldest days, the rail will be in a
significant amount of tension, like a stretched rubber band, but will
also not move out of place.
If the rail breaks on a cold day, the maintenance crew will insert a
replacement rail at a lower temperature, but they have to return in the
spring to de-stress the track before the hottest days of the year. They
do this by cutting out a section of the rail, and reconnecting the rest
at the proper temperature.
Merritt Mullen
Bill McCray <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> All this discussion of the welded rail raises a question in my mind.
> I have always thought that the small gaps between sections of rail
> were there to allow for the expansion of the rails when they get hot.
> If they are welded together, that allowance is gone. What keeps the
> welded rail from buckling when it gets hot and expands?
Well, it is laid under conditions for it to be normally in tension, so
when it gets hot, it can compress somewhat without buckling. But if it
gets hot enough it does buckle (sun kinks). That is why some railroads
have operating restrictions during unusually hot weather.
> Off-topic query: Are you the Roberts family researcher?
Yes, I am! And I see from your e-mail address you are the Bill McCray in
my genealogy address book. Small world, isn't it?
Merritt
PC Replay
Interesting time for this topic. The NS Michigan Line is under heavy
maintenance Monday thru Thursday for another 4 weeks.
Replacing ties, dumping ballast, tamping ... and replacing jointed sections
with welded rail.
Anyone having questions on this topic is invited to drop a line to Chris at
grandmalolly@hotmail_NOSPAM_dot_com. He is a retired section foreman and
loves to keep in touch with people on this topic. His 40 years experience
should have most if not all of your answers to related questions.
Of course you will have to remove the no spam from the address and dot is
.
JR is correct on the geographical mean temperature for preheating rail. Here
comes the can of worms ... you preheat the rail to 80 deg F for a 100 deg
max. You weld the rail together and it cools. When it cools it contracts,
causing the rail to lie in a tension state. As it heats again it expands to
the norm it was laid at thus avoiding most kinks. Let the rail be heated for
several days in extreme temperature and the rail expands past the point it
was laid at .... sun kinks. The formula is for "ideal" conditions and is
mandated by FRA. Unfortunately, it's not an ideal world, even for FRA! LOL
The rail is held to the ties by spikes and plates which hold the gauge of
the rail at 4 foot 8 and 1/2 inches. Then there are anchors that hold the
rail in place next to the ties to prevent movement of the rail and ties,
i.e., alignment. The ties are held in place by ballast that must be
compacted between the ties and must be 18 inches past the outer ends of the
ties for Class V railroad. For class VI railroad the standard is 24 inches
past the outer ends of the ties.
BTW, stick rail is 39 foot long. It is 39 foot long because boxcar length
was 40 foot in earlier years. Harmonic rocking was not an issue then because
the cars and rail joints were synchronous.
"Bill McCray" <billm...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2ti5kv0m5dm9vqebe...@4ax.com...
Noel Stoutenburg
> Question, please. You said that stock rail was 39' long. I found
> some rail, (formerly CRI&P jointed) which was 32' long. Do you or
> your friend know if it was standard to use the 39' or 32' in
> mainlines? Or was the shorter rail more often found in sidings?
There were a number of reasons that 32 foot rail might have been used at
one place or another. For example, at a railroad / highway grade
crossinge, the standard practice on the Rock was to avoid, if possible,
a track joint in the middle of a street right of way, or at least in the
middle of a traffic lane. Shorter sections of rail were used for this
purpose.
However, when rail was changed out, it was common on the Rock to cut the
rail, rather than unbolt it. If the rail you saw lacked holes for track
bolts, the rail was cut apart, with longer sections loaded and sold for
scrap, and the shorter ones, including the angle bars, sent for
reclamation, where the bolts were removed, and the bolts, and rail ends
were sold for scrap, with the angle bars that were still serviceable
preserved for reuse.
ns
As a former CRI&P employee, I'm pretty sure what you have is "scrap
rail". It was, for a time, policy to take 39 foot rail, cut out the
center 32 feet, and sell it for scrap, and save the joint ends, with
joint bars, so they could be reused. When the joint bars (angle bars)
were removed, the bolts and bits of rail were either used on the
property (site, or sold for scrap.