How long can a train hold up traffic?
kc5...@postoffice.swbell.net
have to ride a bus to work that went down Exposition and under R. L.
Thornton. Anyway, there is train track there and back then no way for
the bus to get past the train if it was on the track though that has now
changed.
One day when riding the bus, it took so long for the train to pass, that
a police officer got off the bus and gave a citation to the train
operator (at least that is what the officer said when he got back on the
bus), and the train did move to let us by.
I am wondering whether there really are rules about how long a train can
hold up traffic.
I use to live off of Military Parkway and Jim Miller.
I once saw an ambulance that was making an emergency call, though there
was a long train running across track next to Forney Road. Anyway, the
ambulance turned off the siren and I guess called in to get another
dispatched.
Now there is a bridge that goes over the tracks at Buckner and is only a
few blocks away from Jim Miller.
I think it must be that in some parts of towns and cities there must be
less consideration of where problems will be if track is laid down and
used? How does a railroad decide where to put its track?
In a game I have Railroad Tycoon, I have found my trains will take the
shortest route possible, unless directed differently by designated stops
that make it take a longer route. What I found interesting is that some
routes I thought were shorter turned out to be longer when placed, also
I found the shorter routes did not always make as much $$$. I am
wondering whether this is ever the case for a real railroad?
Charles George, KC5RAI
Paul Whatley
state trooper, trains may only block a highway crossing for 15 minutes,
then the engineer is subject to a ticket and fine of $75.00
Brad Merriman
remember how much.
Brad
Paul Whatley <wha...@adams.net> wrote in message
news:3A646585...@adams.net...
Rick Coble
Trains blocked a few key intersections on a regular basis. The town felt
that the railroad wasn't doing everything possible to alleviate the problem,
and with the amount of the fine relatively small ($50-$75), the town felt
that the railroad considered the fine "a cost of doing business."
After a year of little or no progress, the city summoned the railroad to
appear in court. GTW/CN sent legal counsel - a team of lawyers. The
railroad paid for airfare, lodging (nice hotel, no doubt), meals, etc. If
the railroad used outside counsel, add billable hours to the cost. Plus a
small fine for blocking an intersection.
These days, the railroad rarely blocks the intersection.
<kc5...@postoffice.swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3A63F51D...@postoffice.swbell.net...
Leeson
In Tacoma, unless it is a passing train, certain crossings cannot be blocked
for over 10 minutes. Any other trains (such as a switch engine) is supposed
to wait for the road traffic to clear before activating the crossing gates
again. It is rarely enforced, because the BNSF had a case go to court in
Auburn, Wa. when they re-opened the Stampede line. The City of Auburn
wanted to force the BNSF to build overpasses at all of the crossings. The
Court found that the City would have to pay for the funding, along with the
State and there were Federal funds available, too. In Olympia, Wa. there
are certain street crossings which cannot be blocked (again City Code)
during designated times (rush hour traffic). The track runs down the main
part of 6th Avenue in the middle of the street. Olympia, being the State
Capitol and the center of the "Big Government" is a different story. The
train crew switching Olympia is well aware of the time restrictions.
E.G.Schleyer
As a State Trooper, how do you serve a summons to an engineer? You have NO
authority on railroad property and have no right to enter, on or in, a
locomotive. You would have a hell of a time giving me a ticket. If push came to
shove, you would have to arrest me and that would leave you with 150 cars
sitting over a few crossings with NO one to move them. What did you accomplish?
Ed Schleyer
DarkwolfX6
Piedmont Division. In that situation a company official (usually a
trainmaster), had to go to the place that was blocked and the company was fined
a $ amount. Not the crew becuase they typically have no choice as to where
they park it.
Brad Merriman
when an officer tossed him around to cuff him (He still won't say how much
he got off of that one). We have a general order that says law enforcement
personnel are allowed on the engine. Guess it's however mad the officer is.
My biggest problem is convincing the officer that I don't have to show him
my driver's license, just my fed license (a train-auto collision can go on
your driving record).
Brad
DarkwolfX6 <darkw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010118113034...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
John Garrison
license is not to carry it on duty. That way all you have is your FRA card.'
"Brad Merriman" <ke...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:948u2d$qcj$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
David Campbell
show a drivers license to anybody.....isn't it just for driving an
automobile.......
"John Garrison" <cor...@rbnet.com> wrote in message
news:949ipl$3jdj$1...@news3.infoave.net...
DarkwolfX6
(dispatcher), but I know enough of my guys to hear all the things they have to
put up with. I guess you kind of have to group the government agencies all
together to really make you question things. When your dispatcher tells you to
stop out there you have to stop, if the law (Hours of Service) gets you, you
have to park it. It'd be really nice if the police would respect the fact that
we are just trying to observe the federal laws that have been placed on us and
work with us a little bit. I know too that there are a lot of railroaders out
there who can get "gruff" at times but I can't blame them when I'm working 12
on 8 off 12 on 10 off for days on end at times (sometimes weeks).
Well thanks for that update, I guess my crews have been lucky. On Georgia &
Alabama Divisions I have never heard of this situation occurring, Hopefully I
won't in the future either.
Jack Nienhaus
driver's license is the easiest way to identify yourself. If you have
some other photo ID that should also be ok.
Jack
David Campbell
have an Id card with you at all times...many many times I might be somewhere
without a wallet....if I am not driving of course. I don't recall any
mandatory federal ID laws...do you?
"Jack Nienhaus" <w9...@arrl.net> wrote in message
news:3A6869A6...@arrl.net...
Chip Olson
> I was not aware that in the United States Of America...it was neccessary to
> have an Id card with you at all times...many many times I might be somewhere
> without a wallet....if I am not driving of course. I don't recall any
> mandatory federal ID laws...do you?
Not federal, but some states require ID to be carried. California, for
one. Yes, it's appalling.
On the subject of train-auto collisions going on the engineer's driving
record, the same is often true if you have an accident on your bicycle.
The thing that gets me about it, though, is under what circumstances is
a train-auto collision the engineer's fault?
--
-Chip Olson. | ceo at shore dot net
"You ask me why we celebrate, when nothing has been won;
We take dark hours, we make them great, that's all we've ever done..."
-Oysterband, "This Is The Voice".
Dave Rutan
train hits the car on the crossing. ;-)>
Dave
Chip Olson wrote:
>
> On the subject of train-auto collisions going on the engineer's driving
> record, the same is often true if you have an accident on your bicycle.
> The thing that gets me about it, though, is under what circumstances is
> a train-auto collision the engineer's fault?
--
DL&W Sussex Branch Website
http://members.nbci.com/sbdlw
Paul Whatley
always the auto drivers fault as state statute establishes that trains
have the right of way over vehicular traffic.
Paul Whatley
laws prohibiting grade crossing blockages.
I live in a community of about 50,000. The BNSF splits the northern
1/3 of town from the southern 2/3 rd's. Our hospital is in the southern
2/3 rd's. We have 5 roadways that connect the northern part of town
with the southern. BNSF has grade crossings at 3 of these, with a
railroad bridge separating one and a highway bridge separating the 5th.
Both grade separations are on the far western end of town. The main
central route, the shortest distance to the hospital for ambulances
coming from the north, has a grade crossing.
How would you feel if you had a critically ill, or injured relative
in one of those ambulances that couldn't get to the hospital because a
train is blocking the crossing. Detouring to one of the bridges would
add at least 10 to 15 minutes to the travel time. Many times, in a
trauma situation, minutes can be critical to life or death.
This is the reason these laws are enacted and need to be enforced.
Again, most engineers I've encounter, are very considerate of this.
It usually isn't a problem, as always though, there are exceptions.
I've issued far more citations to motorist's for disobeying grade
crossing signals than I have to engineers for blocking a crossing.
Just food for thought.
Paul
Gene Wirchenko
> I would like to go to the heart of why most cities and states have
>laws prohibiting grade crossing blockages.
> I live in a community of about 50,000. The BNSF splits the northern
>1/3 of town from the southern 2/3 rd's. Our hospital is in the southern
>2/3 rd's. We have 5 roadways that connect the northern part of town
>with the southern. BNSF has grade crossings at 3 of these, with a
>railroad bridge separating one and a highway bridge separating the 5th.
>Both grade separations are on the far western end of town. The main
>central route, the shortest distance to the hospital for ambulances
>coming from the north, has a grade crossing.
> How would you feel if you had a critically ill, or injured relative
>in one of those ambulances that couldn't get to the hospital because a
>train is blocking the crossing. Detouring to one of the bridges would
>add at least 10 to 15 minutes to the travel time. Many times, in a
>trauma situation, minutes can be critical to life or death.
This has been a bit of an issue where I live (Salmon Arm, BC).
911 does have a special number to CP Rail for dealing with these
situations.
My understanding of the Canadian Rail Operating Rules is that a
train can be stopped for a maximum of five minutes. I don't know that
there is a limit on how long a moving train can block a crossing.
> This is the reason these laws are enacted and need to be enforced.
> Again, most engineers I've encounter, are very considerate of this.
>It usually isn't a problem, as always though, there are exceptions.
> I've issued far more citations to motorist's for disobeying grade
>crossing signals than I have to engineers for blocking a crossing.
Well, there are more motorists than engineers, but sometimes,
given the races I've seen, all of the motorists are competing for the
same intelligence points.
> Just food for thought.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Jack Nienhaus
the crossing gates leaving them in a down position. The railroad had
the gates raised and put out an order for all trains to come to a stop
and flagging the crossing before proceeding. The train in question
ignored the order and went through at 50 mph and hit an auto. I think
one person was killed.
Jack Nienhaus
multiple crossings. The city is continually fighting with the railroads
as trains will block crossings for 30/40 minutes. The railroads will be
fined amounts as high as $1500, but that is just the cost of doing
business. The town is now putting a law on the books where the police
will arrest officials of the railroad and charge them under criminal law
that can result in not only fines, but also jail terms. This should be
interesting.
D Outen
> Recently there was a crossing accident where road salt had shorted out
> the crossing gates leaving them in a down position. The railroad had
> the gates raised and put out an order for all trains to come to a stop
> and flagging the crossing before proceeding. The train in question
> ignored the order and went through at 50 mph and hit an auto. I think
> one person was killed.
If you're talking about the CN/IC incident. It has been reported that
a signal maintainer was at a nearby crossing which was also needed work,
fixed that one, and reported it operable to the dispatcher.
Unfortunately, the dispatcher (apparently) got confused about which
crossing was now fully operable. The dispatcher took the stop and
flag order off of the crossing that had been shut off and had not yet
been fixed. The indication is that the train crew was operating their
train in accordance with all rules, etc. IIRC, it wasn't a fatal
accident. The story also indicated a school bus was waiting to cross,
but the driver was operating the school bus in accordance with the
mandatory stop, look and listen laws and therefore wasn't involved in
the incident.
Dave
Don Forsling
"Jack Nienhaus" <w9...@arrl.net> wrote in message
news:3A6869A6...@arrl.net...
: An officer can demand that you show identification and usually a
: driver's license is the easiest way to identify yourself. If you
have
: some other photo ID that should also be ok.
:
Well, trains and cars aside for the moment (which, I suppose makes
what I'm going to say inappropriate for this group), an officer can
"_demand_ you show identification" all he or she wants, but in the
United States, it is not required that you carry _any_ identification
whatsoever. Failure to have "identification" on you is not a crime.
Obviously, failure to have the appropriate license to engage in
certain activities on you--like running a locomotive or driving a car
_can_ be a crime. But one of the wonders of this country is that you
needn't fear that, when walking along a street, some police officer is
going to tell you to, "Show me your _papers_, please." If he or she
does, you can tell them to take a hike.
Kevin Roa
in article 942bfs$718$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net, Brad Merriman at
ke...@mindspring.com wrote on 1/16/01 2:33 PM:
Kevin Roa
jim thias
>>> In Olympia, Wa. there are certain street crossings which cannot be blocked
(again City Code)
during designated times (rush hour traffic). The track runs down the main part
of 6th Avenue in the middle of the street.<<<
Have any gifs/jpg's of this, by chance?
JT
David Campbell
"Don Forsling" <ddfor...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:_qIa6.2042$ka5.3...@news.uswest.net...
Jack Nienhaus
occurred and the police officer can demand that the violator (engineer?)
produce identification. It doesn't have to be a driver's license. I was
not referring to a citizen walking down the street minding his own
business.
Eric Shock
usually get fined, or someone else like a dispatcher? Really, I would
think the crew really does not have much of a choice when and where they
stop. If they got a red signal at the diamonds because another train has
priority, then I'd rather see a crossing blocked for 15 minutes at a
stretch rather than see two trains plow into each other. Also, if the
crew outlaws, they don't have much of a say, or their power breaks down,
they loose air, etc etc etc...
I know that it's been a really big problem here in Muncie, Indiana.
Trains coming off the NS Frankfort district to cross the CSX
Indianapolis District (former Conrail/Big Four) and go onto the NS
Newcastle district often have to stop for the CSX trains which have
priority, or for Newcastle District trains which are passing through. A
lot of area residents have lodged complaints because of the five minute
rule violations, but the NS crews can't really do a whole lot about it.
-Eric Shock
Merritt Mullen
Jack Nienhaus at w9...@arrl.net wrote on 1/19/01 8:21 AM:
> An officer can demand that you show identification and usually a
> driver's license is the easiest way to identify yourself. If you have
> some other photo ID that should also be ok.
That's a bad idea if you are driving a train. It gives the officer an
opportunity to write a citation against you identifying you by you driver's
license, meaning the citation can go against your driving record.
You can always identify yourself verbally.
Merritt
Jim Lisson
> > An officer can demand that you show identification and usually a
> > driver's license is the easiest way to identify yourself. If you have
> > some other photo ID that should also be ok.
>
> That's a bad idea if you are driving a train. It gives the officer an
> opportunity to write a citation against you identifying you by you driver's
> license, meaning the citation can go against your driving record.
>
> You can always identify yourself verbally.
Doesn't having some form of ID come under vagrancy laws?
Does your federal engineer license have a picture?
Merritt Mullen
Jim Lisson at jli...@earthlink.net wrote on 1/26/01 8:58 AM:
> Doesn't having some form of ID come under vagrancy laws?
I thought most vagrancy laws have been struck down as unconstitutional.
> Does your federal engineer license have a picture?
I don't know, but what's wrong with telling the officer "I'm Robert Smith,
and I work for the Union Pacific Railroad." Unless he suspects the train
has been stolen or hijacked, he has no reason to doubt your verbal
identification. He really has no reason to see your engineer's license, as
he has no authority to enforce the laws regarding it use.
Merritt
Tank
> opportunity to write a citation against you identifying you by you
driver's
> license, meaning the citation can go against your driving record.<
Only moving violations in a motor vehicle are counted against your
driving record. Any other type of violation will result only in a
summons to appear in municipal court. Blocking the crossing with
your locomotive will not get your state automobile driver's license
suspended. Further, in most cases, moving violations committed
outside of your state of residence do not count either. For example,
speeding in Ohio is 2 points on the license, but I can go to Pennsylvania
and speed my butt off, and the only penalty I pay is in cash. (The amount
of which the PA authorities are kind enough to post in a convenient chart
on the speed limit signs, so I can drive as fast as I can afford to!)
--
Tank
"Remember to pillage before you burn"
Chip Olson
> Only moving violations in a motor vehicle are counted against your
> driving record.
Go say that on rec.bicycles.soc. And since when is a train not a motor
vehicle?
A more important difference is that the railroad isn't a public roadway,
even at the grade crossing.
desert...@webtv.net
Western
Illinois University
Noel Stoutenburg
Tank wrote, in part:
> Further, in most cases, moving violations committed
> outside of your state of residence do not count either. For example,
> speeding in Ohio is 2 points on the license, but I can go to Pennsylvania
> and speed my butt off, and the only penalty I pay is in cash.
While this may be true in the particular case of violations of traffic laws
in Pennsylvania by drivers holding Ohio driver's licenses, it is not
universally true. If the state in which you commit the violation has a
reciprocity agreement with the state which has issued your driver's license
(and such agreements exist between nearly all adjoining states in my own
direct knowledge--except for PA-OH apparently), your violation will go
against your driving record. My understanding is that the further away from
your home state, the less likely there is a reciprocity agreement, so if you
hold a FL license, and speed in WA state, there is less likely to be a
reciprocity agreement that between FL and either AL or GA.
ns
John Kane
Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
You may not even be safe out of the country. I believe my province (Quebec) has
reciprocal agreements with New York and Maine.
>
> ns
--
John Kane
Hull, Quebec Canada
David Campbell
"John Kane" <jka...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3A72D1B0...@sympatico.ca...
Mr. Sarcastic
2. Most state laws require you to carry some sort of approved ID. That is
why most DMV offices issue not only the standard drivers license, but also a
picture ID of some sort (one that does not allow you to operate a vehicle).
3. All an officer needs is your legal name and date of birth (DOB) and he
can find out everything else anyway (for example your drivers license ID
number, your social security number...from the NCIC, their state computer
system and the DMV).
4. The Union Pacific, and most other class I's I would assume, have a
picture ID they issue.
We were told that should we ever have occasion to have contact with the
police, either because we were involved in an accident or because they are
pissed because we blocked an intersection for too long, that we should tell
the officer that we don't carry our drivers license on the train because we
are not required to (which is true, except for any state and local laws
requiring valid picture ID) and to offer only our RR ID. The reason for
this is because evidently, some RR employees in the past have wound up with
problems because the accident was receded against their drivers license, and
even to the point that their own auto insurance did, or could, go up because
an accident now shows on their license. I kinda doubt this is true, but
even if it is, like I said, they can get all that info from your Name and
DOB (which, in most locations you are required by law to give an officer)
anyway.
5. A state or local officer has no reason to see your RR license, should
that be a engineers license or a rules card (which is required to be carried
by all trainmen, by the FRA), because as stated, he has no enforcement
power. He can demand to see your RR ID, or hold the train if he has any
reason to believe you don't belong on it.
6. As a side point, I have heard from several guys here that you can order
an officer off your train because it fell under federal jurisdiction, and
they had no authority to be on private property without a warrant anyway.
For the record, that's not true. An officer can go onto any property of a
public business (a public business is any business not run in the home, or
where other than the resident of the home business comes onto the property).
If you block a road for more than 10 minutes, then the officer can stop the
train and board it, and give the crew a ticket, or even arrest them under
certain circumstances. Also, keep in mind that refusing to cooperate will
just piss them off, and they are gonna get their way anyway. We had a
incident where the crew was not cooperative (it was a blocked road incident)
so the officer claimed the conductor assaulted him, and took him to jail.
Tell me you want that on your record!!!
I missed most of the original posts, I hope I covered what you were looking
for.
"Merritt Mullen" <mmu...@ispchannel.com> wrote in message
news:B697063F.3CDB5%mmu...@ispchannel.com...
Valued Customer
says...
> 1. The engineers license does not have a picture.
> 2. Most state laws require you to carry some sort of approved ID. That is
> why most DMV offices issue not only the standard drivers license, but also a
> picture ID of some sort (one that does not allow you to operate a vehicle).
> 3. All an officer needs is your legal name and date of birth (DOB) and he
> can find out everything else anyway (for example your drivers license ID
> number, your social security number...from the NCIC, their state computer
> system and the DMV).
> 4. The Union Pacific, and most other class I's I would assume, have a
> picture ID they issue.
>
> they had no authority to be on private property without a warrant anyway.
> For the record, that's not true. An officer can go onto any property of a
> public business (a public business is any business not run in the home, or
> where other than the resident of the home business comes onto the property).
> If you block a road for more than 10 minutes, then the officer can stop the
> train and board it, and give the crew a ticket, or even arrest them under
> certain circumstances. Also, keep in mind that refusing to cooperate will
> just piss them off, and they are gonna get their way anyway. We had a
> incident where the crew was not cooperative (it was a blocked road incident)
> so the officer claimed the conductor assaulted him, and took him to jail.
> Tell me you want that on your record!!!
>
Thank you Mr. Sarcastic! I would hope that your post would be printed
off and stuck in one's rule book or train bulletins for future reference
in order to avoid unnecessary confrontations, or at least having to
explain to a po'd trainmaster why the train was delayed or why he was
called out to rectify the situation.
John Kane
David Campbell wrote:
> they should, you ever see the way the quebec people drive...lol
Well yes I live there. :) Sure beats those Ontarians anyway.
Frank A. Rosenbaum
for blocking the crossing???
--
Frank R.
Note New EMAIL address: faros...@mediaone.net
The train club I belong to is the Gratiot Valley. See us at:
http://chives.michvhf.com/~gvrr/index.htm
+-------------------------+
| DO NOT FEED |
| THE TROLLS |
+-----------+-+---------+
| |
| |
| |
| |
....\\|.|/....
If at first you don't succeed, throw it in the spare parts box.
Thanks to Lindy9113
Valued Customer <Ti...@Spraguenet.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.14ddc7b58...@news.inetone.net...
Mr. Sarcastic
issue. Only one fine. Anyway, that's how it has worked so far.
"Frank A. Rosenbaum" <faros...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:K5dd6.81350$ft6.1...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net...
Frank A. Rosenbaum
longer. Kind of self defeating if you ask me.
--
Frank R.
Note New EMAIL address: faros...@mediaone.net
The train club I belong to is the Gratiot Valley. See us at:
http://chives.michvhf.com/~gvrr/index.htm
+-------------------------+
| DO NOT FEED |
| THE TROLLS |
+-----------+-+---------+
| |
| |
| |
| |
....\\|.|/....
If at first you don't succeed, throw it in the spare parts box.
Thanks to Lindy9113
Mr. Sarcastic <needc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:954l81$lb9$1...@news.bewellnet.com...
Pat McLean
Of course, the cew could just try to blow right past it....
"Frank A. Rosenbaum" <faros...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:6Snd6.81481$ft6.1...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net...
Kam Abbott
>shove, you would have to arrest me and that would leave you with 150 cars
>sitting over a few crossings with NO one to move them. What did you accomplish?
>
>Ed Schleyer
>
>
Ed, I dont think Paul was trying to make a point, that's just what the
rules are!
Kam Abbott
<rir...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I was not aware that in the United States Of America...it was neccessary to
>have an Id card with you at all times...many many times I might be somewhere
>without a wallet....if I am not driving of course. I don't recall any
>mandatory federal ID laws...do you?
>
I don't know about the US, but in Canada you do not have to carry ID
if you're just walking around. However if you are operating a motor
vehicle it is mandatory and carry's a $200 fine.
Dave Rutan
you are operating a vehicle,) _but_, if you are loitering or otherwise
being a nuisance, and the police are called in. It tackles a WHOLE lot
longer to sort things out because the police use your license as an ID
card. All that nice info in their computers is linked to your driver's license.
Kam Abbott wrote:
>
>
> I don't know about the US, but in Canada you do not have to carry ID
> if you're just walking around. However if you are operating a motor
> vehicle it is mandatory and carry's a $200 fine.
--
DL&W Sussex Branch Memorial: http://members.nbci.com/sbdlw
Andrew Tailby
watch trains go by in the yards pitty my info anit in there computers as i
think i might leave the licence at home back here in sydney and just take
whats known as the proof of age card to say im over 18 now that will really
screw them up
Andrew
"Dave Rutan" <d...@csnet.net> wrote in message
news:3AC89449...@csnet.net...
lammburt
1) One way for trains to hold up traffic is by a derailment.
2) OR by an "emergency."
In other words a air line separation on one of the cars. I have seen air line separations and it can hold up traffic not only on railroads(single/main track) but on streets as well. It is a hassle whenever a train stops in the middle of a busy intersection. It happens all the time in my hometown. Trains that drag their air hoses across crossings will separate if they are not anchored properly. One time an air line was dragged across many crossings that it made a hole in the line the size of a ping-pong ball, and they had to replace the whole line from the shut-off valve to the connection. That usually took almost an hour depending if the MW's (Maintenance of Way) were nearby. Man you talk about a chew-out from the mayor, one time the railroad(name protected)was fined for such a situation, due to blocking ALL of the crossings thru town. Now they do not have to worry about that since they have a highway bypass around town.
I hope that will answer the question at hand.
--
Buddy Burton--webmaster
Buddy's Railroad Page
http://homepages.about.com/bubu71/buddysrailroadpage/Email: lamm...@earthlink.net
in article 3aceff05$0$25505$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au, Andrew Tailby at ata...@optusnet.com.au wrote on 4/7/01 7:57 AM:
Pat.Charette
lammburt <lamm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:B6F4B806.D975%lamm...@earthlink.net...
