Ramsey Vs. Veronica. Test Results!
Mark Wyman
I have finally had it with everyone claiming Veronia as the only useful
transmitter out there, and everyone else’s (notably Ramsey) products are
“junk”. I decided to pick up a Veronia and a Ramsey FM-100, and test them
out side-by-side. Here are the results of my test.
Veronia:
Kit Manual:
Assembled product from an uninformative instruction manual, it’s a good
thing I have experience in electronics, or I would have considerable
difficulty understanding what’s going on in the circuitry. Otherwise
instructions are condensed into one page of assembly. A very quick read,
slow assembly and very little hand-holding for the inexperienced.
Kit assembly:
There is not very much to the product, so it was very easy to assemble due
to the lack of complexity. Parts are spaced out as to get fat fingers
between them, and all are lay-down. Not easy to screw up since there aren’t
very many components to put in the board. Board was silk-screened, which is
always a big help. Everything went smoothly.
Hookup:
First of all I had to find a very well regulated power supply, or high
current battery. Luckily my bench-top supply was handy, otherwise I would
need to purchase a power supply. Anyhow, the regulation is important in this
circuit to prevent frequency drift and ripple FMing since the oscillator is
not crystal-locked. There is a DC path through the oscillator to
unregulated supply power. However the effect of unregulated power FMing will
be small. I powered up the unit with the dummy load as specified, after
checking my work as directed.
The power indicator LED lit the first time through, although dimly at
first. I adjusted the trimmer caps for full brightness at 100.5MHz, which
was a 5-minute process. Relatively easy to do compared to the things I work
on all day, the LED is a nice feature.
I turned off the power and then connected my matched Ramsey TM-100 antenna.
I specially tuned this baby up using a network analyzer, and it’s pretty
close to perfect at 100.5Mhz. I then broadcast a 1kHz tone into each channel
separately to check the separation. I was not impressed at all. The Veronia
had very poor separation (<15dB) with the components all waxed up so as you
can not adjust them for optimum performance. In my mind that is silly, but
considering some of the people who may put these kits together, it is
probably a necessary evil.
I decided to break the rules, and adjust the coils anyway, which improved
the separation considerably. Now it operates with a separation of around
46dB.
I hooked up some audio to listen to the sound quality, and it isn’t too
bad. There is however some swishing with high frequency sounds, and that is
due to mixing by-products of audio with the 38kHz switches. What is really
needed is some audio filtering in front of the inputs to prevent this.
Veronia has a kit just for this, but you will need two of them for stereo. I
built only one up (since I assumed the product was stereo) and tested the
audio, which became much cleaner.
I then performed a series of simple, but important tests on both the
Veronia and the Ramsey FM-100, and the results are at the bottom of this
page.
Ramsey FM-100:
Kit Manual:
Large, thick, and frightening if you have a thing against reading
directions. Fortunately for most good kit builders, we read directions
thoroughly to prevent possible mistakes and oversights. Once you open the
manual and begin reading, you soon discover that there is plenty of good and
useful information, warnings, humor, and instructions. First of all, the
manual is written so that any dim-wit could put this thing together, second,
it gives you fair warning into the rules and regulations that you should be
aware of. Veronia is from the UK, so they don’t have to let you know these
things, and they are IMPORTANT. Third, it describes the circuit and its
operation thoroughly, to the point of being educational. You too should try
opening a Ramsey manual some day, it’s a worthwhile read. Besides, they will
sell you any one of their manuals for $5.00. The board is silk screened as
well. Enough said.
Oh, I also purchased the high-power (1W) module to be able to compare
“apples to apples”.
Kit assembly:
Here the manual really helps, since there is much more to the Ramsey than
the Veronia. For example, it includes limiters, power supply, audio meters,
frequency display, buttons, mixer, and so on. Veronia has only a modulator
and RF amplifier. There are about 4x the components, so there is a 4x
increase in the possibility of assembly mistakes. If you screwed up once on
the Veronia, you will more than likely screw up on the Ramsey, unless you
read the Ramsey instructions, which should prevent that.
Assembly took a while since there is a greater quantity of components,
three boards, a case and other hardware to put together, and I read the
manual. All in all the assembly was good and fun, some parts are close, but
not too close. Again this is due to complexity. Everything again went
smoothly.
Hookup:
I plugged the unit in to the wall, put on a 50ohm load, and selected my
frequency with front panel controls. The unit worked the first time. I then
used a light bulb (#47 6 volt) to adjust my output power. This is a standard
practice that many HAMs have used in the past to adjust power without fancy
equipment. I continued tweaking coils until the light was as bright as I
could get it. I didn’t use the spectrum analyzer at this point to keep the
setup similar to what anyone else may be doing.
I plugged in the same balanced TM-100 antenna, and listened on the radio
with 1kHz in each channel to check separation. I was impressed at how good
the separation was without having to tweak anything, and it was better than
the Veronia at the start, but just (barely) not as good after the Veronia
was adjusted for optimum performance. The separation was around 40dB.
I hooked up audio (the same song I used with the Veronia, Van Halen, Hot
for Teacher since there is a lot of cymbals in it), and gave it a listen. As
expected, the audio sounded excellent right from the start since the project
includes limiters and low-pass filters in it. I needed no add-on kits to
improve the audio.
Without any input signal there was just slightly more background noise than
the Veronia when the receiver was turned up full-volume, but the difference
is negligible and unimportant unless you like broadcasting dead air.
Some Specs for you die-hards:
All measurments made with a Hewlett Packard 8590A spectrum analyzer, a 20dB
fixed attenuator, a Hewlett Packard 54645D Oscilloscope with FFT add on, and
a crummy Sharp stereo receiver.
Veronia:
Audio separation: 46dB @ 1kHz
Carrier at 100.5Mhz 27.1dBm which is about 500mW (1/2 watt) into 50ohm load
2nd harmonic –10.6dBm, 38.5dB lower than carrier. This is still quite a bit
of power, I could still pick it up over ¼ of a mile away!
3rd harmonic -13.3dBm, 40.4dB lower than carrier
4th harmonic -24.9dBm, 52.0dB lower than the carrier
5th harmonic Beyond 3rd harmonic, values were between –20dBm and –30dBm all
the way to 1GHz.
Limitation Notes: Needs power supply, and 2 limiters (one for each channel),
no case, no crystal references whatsoever. Frequency does drift when objects
are moved nearby. Poor instructions in comparison. No mixer, no audio meter,
no limiters, no low pass filters, no microphone level inputs. Not so great
harmonics.
Advantages: Simple assembly, simple use. Nice feature of LED power
indicator. Great separation when adjusted, nice RF connector, if you have
one of those lying around (which I didn’t). Can run off of a battery.
Ramsey FM-100:
Audio separation: 40dB @ 1kHz
Carrier at 100.5Mhz 31.74dBm, which is slightly more than 1watt into 50ohm
load
2nd harmonic -28.4dBm, 60.1dB lower than carrier
3rd harmonic -22.4dBm, 54.1dB lower than carrier
4th harmonic Couldn’t measure harmonic values beyond 3rd harmonic due to
being too low.
Limitation Notes: Tough to get to tweaks when they are inside a great
powder-coated metal case. Had to use my own light bulb to adjust power. Had
to make verbal agreement to not use high power module in the US. Separation
limited due to use of BA1404 having no adjustment for this.
Advantages: Plug it in and it goes. Great manual, Ramsey has the kit market
trounced with these. I didn’t need to get to tweaks once I had set it up the
first time. Simple to use and adjust. Frequency display is nice. Built in
everything. All you need to do is plug it in. Neat extras like “auto-muting”
and mixer. Beautiful case. Includes supply, limiters, microphone level
input, low pass filters. Can’t run off of a battery. Better specs that count
when it comes to broadcasting. Phenomenal harmonics, they are far lower than
what is required, and that is what is important when the FCC comes sniffing
around!
Summary: If I had my choice, I would return the Veronia, but I’ve already
put it together. At least I can now join the “in” club on the pirate
newsgroup to say that I too have one. The Veronia will be sitting around
doing nothing but collecting dust while I use the FM-100 for my micro-power
station.
Winner: FM-100
The Veronia claims to have a 1 watt output, but it only measured up to ½ of
a watt, anywhere on the band. I tried everything to get it to 1 watt, but it
wouldn’t do it. I ran it at 16 volts, 10 volts, and it made very little
difference.
The Ramsey FM-100 came up to 1 watt before I even messed with any tweaks,
but that was probably luck. I tweaked some things around to reduce harmonics
mostly, and that increased the power by a hair. At least their rating was to
specs.
With the FM-100 I get much more “bang for the buck”, and it comes with
everything I need except for an antenna, microphone and disk player to get a
full station up and running. It’s less of an investment that the FCC can
take away. And if it were my choice, I would trade off separation specs with
harmonic specs any day. To potentially interfere with aircraft bands with
the Veronia scares me half to death.
Ps. I don’t understand the Veronia hype anymore than I understand my taxes.
-Mark Wyman
Remove NEWS from my e-mail address to reply.
scott
<wyman...@servtech.com> writes
>Fel
is this guy for real
i am the only one here who thinks mark should remove mr ramseys dick
from his ass.
Kent Atwater
> out side-by-side. Here are the results of my test.
>
> Veronia:
> not crystal-locked.
Which Veronica are you comparing to the Ramsey FM-100?
I remember a TV commercial in which Burger King was saying how their
Whopper had more beef than McDonald's regular hamburger. No shit.
McDonald's Big Mac has more beef than Burger King's regual hamburger
too.
Just curious as to which Veronica since you say it drifts. MY Veronica
is PLL locked and does not drift. I bet it blows away Ramsey's non PLL
units too.
web_...@hotmail.com
"Mark Wyman" <wyman...@servtech.com> wrote:
> Fell free to duplicate and pass around.
>
> I have finally had it with everyone claiming Veronia as the only useful
> transmitter out there, and everyone else’s (notably Ramsey) products are
> “junk”. I decided to pick up a Veronia and a Ramsey FM-100, and test them
> out side-by-side. Here are the results of my test.
>
>
>
> -Mark Wyman
>
> Remove NEWS from my e-mail address to reply.
>
>
Dear News Group,
The world is flat and you will fall over if you sail too far
A Centipede has a 100 legs
Ramsey is bad / Ramsey is good
The Sun revolves around the Earth
Our fantasy world is at stake if someone challenges our beliefs, or even
gently reminds to to relook closed issues. We all comfortably make our own
assumptions. and then we go "comfortably numb" to anything that shakes our
beliefs.
So we resort to four letter words, give a dog a bad name and hang him. Ad-
hominem attacks to avoid listening to a radical idea.
But Hewlett Packard equipment does not lie.
And all manufacturers do try to improve their products from time to time. You
cannot judge them today by your opinion of a year ago.
And a $ worth of filter components can get your exciter's harmonic content
down another 30 db or more. And it does not matter anyway except for those
running these exciters directly into an Aerial. After a couple of Class C
stages in the RF amp, you cannot see the harmonic contribution of the exciter
anyway.
And I cannot say that my Merc is better / worse than my Pajero 4WD as they
had different design goals. One cannot take me into the desert and the other
cannot do 220K/hr.
So lets be objective and unbiased about it. Maybe we have reached a
technological inflection point but our blindness prevents us from seeing it.
I suggest that Ramsey can give one of their latest kits to D Schmidt or
Marconi or even Scott to review. They are the gurus who can independently
verify Spectral Output etc and publish on their site.
And then you can have the pleasure of saying "I was right all along" but only
now there will be a logic to the previously unfounded belief.
Or you will be so shocked with the results, you will question every firm
belief you ever had, till there is a proven scientific evidence backing it.
In the meanwhile, Mark , I would welcome it if you can give me your test
results to publish at my site along with any writeup you propose describing
your kit building experience on the Ramsey. We can see later on how they
compare with test results from the Gurus.
Web from http://members.tripod.com/~transmitters
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Mark Wyman
professionalism, then pull your head out of yours. If you can't face the
facts, then don't post here, send directly to me.
Get a life.
Test results from Ramsey products (screen shots from analyzer follows).
I didn't post any from Veronica, but now I think I will. Just to shame you.
-Mark Wyman
scott wrote in message ...
>In article <6qn8i7$et0$1...@post.servtech.com>, Mark Wyman
Mark Wyman
didn't do a comparison of yours yet. Now I don't think I'll bother, but hey,
I am trying to be fair about this as possible, so I probably will later. Why
should I give you extra press, if you can't be a sociable fellow. At least
state your side of the argument with some facts and details. I personally
would like to see similar specs of your products posted here as well, to see
how good they match up. I bet they may be better than Ramsey, since you are
working with discrete components and double-sided boards and so on, but
PROVE it.
Seeing how controversial this has become, I will set up a web site with
ALL of the tests on it, and try to be as un-biased as possible. If anyone
else is reading this thread, and you manufacture FM-stereo transmitters up
to 1->2 watt outputs, I will run, or you can run the same test on your
products, and send the results to me, just remove NEWS from my e-mail. There
are two options to performing this to keep it fair.
1. Send me some screen-captures of the spectrum analyzer display with it
set up from 80MHz-450MHz, with the first three harmonics marked as shown in
my other mailings. No cheating. Results may be checked if they seem
unreasonable.
2. No press.
I will post a message later when I get my site fixed as to where it will be
located.
-Mark Wyman
-Hey!, what's with you...
Marconi
and an unspecified Veronica kit:
> The Veronia claims to have a 1 watt output, but it only measured up to ½ of
> a watt, anywhere on the band. I tried everything to get it to 1 watt, but it
> wouldn’t do it. I ran it at 16 volts, 10 volts, and it made very little
> difference.
I got a shade under 1W for a 16V supply at 98MHz.
When the dust settles on this one, just to remind people that my review of the
Veronica 1W VFO unit (not the PLL) appears at
http://www.irational.org/sic/radio/veronica-1w.html
On this page, you will find spectrum analyser plots, including one close into
the carrier, which we haven't seen yet for the Ramsey.
Remember people, this kit costs less than 30 uk pounds.
__________________________________
How to be a Radio Pirate
http://www.irational.org/sic/radio
Guido
>
> Fell free to duplicate and pass around.
>
> I have finally had it with everyone claiming Veronia as the only useful
> transmitter out there, and everyone else’s (notably Ramsey) products are
> “junk”. I decided to pick up a Veronia and a Ramsey FM-100, and test them
> out side-by-side.
>
Nothing to make a survey more scientific than a little bias.
> The Ramsey FM-100 came up to 1 watt before I even messed with any tweaks,
> but that was probably luck.
>
Make that a LOT of bias. Try releasing your hate on something living,
that can fight back. And try picking something your size. Pitting a
no-name "Veronica" against Ramsey's best is like pitting a fruit fly
against a fly swatter. It's obvious you chose a Veronica VFO, instead
of the PLL, which would be the logical match in a comparison. For your
next comparison, try running the Yaesu FT-847 against a Heathkit
handietalkie.
> With the FM-100 I get much more “bang for the buck”, and it comes with
> everything I need except for an antenna, microphone and disk player to get a
> full station up and running. It’s less of an investment that the FCC can
> take away.
Try comparing Ramsey with the Veronica 1 watt PLL... without bias.
This, and many other of your claims, will change dramatically. What
would be fun is if you compared Veronica's worst amplifiers to Ramsey's
best amplifiers... and please, keep the bias for this one... I can
always use a good laugh.
> And if it were my choice, I would trade off separation specs with
> harmonic specs any day. To potentially interfere with aircraft bands with
> the Veronia scares me half to death.
>
You implication is that your Ramsey product won't interfere with
aircraft bands. I assume you will be paying off any fines invoked by
the FCC toward anyone who takes this "face value" comment as fact? If
you REALLY want to provide public service, you should note that ALL
transmitters will send out harmonics that could be dangerous, and that
NO transmitter should be used without an appropriate low-pass filter.
> Ps. I don’t understand the Veronia hype anymore than I understand my taxes.
>
> -Mark Wyman
>
Try form 1040 EZ, Mark. They're as patronizingly simple as Ramsey
manuals. The only part of your posting acceptable as fact (from my own
personal experiences) is that Ramsey assembly instructions are perfect
for the complete buffoon. Anyone who's ever successfully soldered
before can follow Veronica's instructions, which are the simplest to
read of any TX manufacturer next to Ramsey's. And to be honest, if
your skill level is such that Veronica's instructions are difficult,
it's time to set down the iron and ask for someone else to assemble the
kit for you. To be honest, I wouldn't send anyone inexperienced after
anything larger than an FM-10A... there are too many parts in the FM-100
that can be smoked by the inexperienced solderer.
Mark Wyman
expect it to be all transmitters. Thanks!
******
this NG has been comparing the Ramsey FM-25 to the Veronica 1WPLL, as
they are both in the same price range ($125 or so). Having built 3
FM-25's, 2 FM-100's, and 2 Veronica 1WPLL's (they both put out 1W no
problemo), I give thumbs-up to the Veronica's over the FM-25's (yeah
they do require a $25 sterreo-cder for stereo). But to compare the
1WPLL (that is what you tested, no?) to the FM-100 is simply unfair,
as the FM-100 costs about $250-300, and their precious 1-watt "module"
for it is about another $100!
I really liked the FM-100's as well, but your test seems bogus to me.
believer
"...What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in
mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?"
1 Samuel 15:14
Read the actual legal documents relating to
microbroadcasting at
http://www.telepath.com/believer
The "Low-Power" page
Mark Wyman
up. Though some of your claims are true. Let me make a few comments...
Guido wrote in message <35CF8C17...@spam.net>...
>
>Nothing to make a survey more scientific than a little bias.
Bais?? OK I was a little bent at the Veronica having nothing much to it, and
having just purchased it. I'm better now. I got the "JUNK" biased comment
from several places on the net, noteably this newsgroup, and none of them
specified any particular kit. I had to say or do something.
>
>
>Make that a LOT of bias. Try releasing your hate on something living,
>that can fight back. And try picking something your size.
? What? You may not mean bias at this point, but a mis-match comparison.
Hate? Where do you get that?
>Pitting a
>no-name "Veronica" against Ramsey's best is like pitting a fruit fly
>against a fly swatter. It's obvious you chose a Veronica VFO, instead
>of the PLL, which would be the logical match in a comparison. For your
>next comparison, try running the Yaesu FT-847 against a Heathkit
>handietalkie.
I mentioned later on this same newsgroup that it was the Veronica NON-PLL.
Anyhow, non-pll has some certain qualities that PLL just cant compare to,
such as phase noise. Veronica was VERY CLEAN, and would be the kit to
purchase if you wanted to crank the juice. I was talking out-of-the-box
however.
>
>
>Try comparing Ramsey with the Veronica 1 watt PLL... without bias.
At the time, I wasn't. Now I will, well maybe not. I'll let someone else
handle this, I just have to send them some stuff. This newsgroup stuff is
wastefull of my time.
>This, and many other of your claims, will change dramatically. What
>would be fun is if you compared Veronica's worst amplifiers to Ramsey's
>best amplifiers... and please, keep the bias for this one... I can
>always use a good laugh.
Amplifiers, which ones? Ramsey doesn't make any claims to any kind of fancy
amplifier other than simple boosters for HAM stuff. Veronica, who obviously
devotes much more design time to this stuff will more than likely have some
nice products. Bais? Me?
>
>You implication is that your Ramsey product won't interfere with
>aircraft bands. I assume you will be paying off any fines invoked by
>the FCC toward anyone who takes this "face value" comment as fact? If
>you REALLY want to provide public service, you should note that ALL
>transmitters will send out harmonics that could be dangerous, and that
>NO transmitter should be used without an appropriate low-pass filter.
>
Imply, imply. I'll tell you what. I NEVER said it wouldn't. What I meant to
imply was that the Veronica that I tested fairly high harmonics in
comaprison, and I would wish to reduce the risk. I was told by a few people
that it was very clean, I had to put in my 2 cents.
>Try form 1040 EZ, Mark. They're as patronizingly simple as Ramsey
>manuals.
If I could, I would. Contracting tends to screw that all to hell. I wont
even get into that here. You can keep filing them though.
> The only part of your posting acceptable as fact (from my own
>personal experiences) is that Ramsey assembly instructions are perfect
>for the complete buffoon.
Oh yeah, I made the whole thing up. I am planning on not doing this anymore
since it is a pain trying to make anyone see past the grunge and hard-set
faithfulness to their favorite kit manufaturer. I will leave this to the
"un-biased" bunch who wont have out of date information much longer.
> Anyone who's ever successfully soldered
>before can follow Veronica's instructions, which are the simplest to
>read of any TX manufacturer next to Ramsey's.
They aren't bad, and they have trouble-shooting in them, which is a major
plus. I was comparing to Ramsey, not everyone. Veronica's kit manual is
pretty good. Obviously though you have some kind of grand picture of all of
the kit builders out there. I have trouble enough finding someone to work
with me that can read a damn color code, and has a B.S. I wont get into that
either. And don't kive me B.S. on this, you know it to be true.
>And to be honest, if
>your skill level is such that Veronica's instructions are difficult,
>it's time to set down the iron and ask for someone else to assemble the
>kit for you.
Ouch! Hmmmm, did I say I had trouble?
>To be honest, I wouldn't send anyone inexperienced after
>anything larger than an FM-10A... there are too many parts in the FM-100
>that can be smoked by the inexperienced solderer.
Quite true, but that's why the manual is there. Whether we like it or not,
inexperienced people will still buy the most complicated stuff. Then I can
picture them driving tech-support nuts after they discover it is too much
for them.
And supposedly only I am Biased.
This IS MY LAST POST on the subject.
-I've had it with some of you people.
Besides, I am a bit BIASED and that is unfair to the other manufacturers.
-Mark Wyman
From now on I'll keep information on my website at
http://www.servtech.com/~wymanmr
broadcast
<s...@vnet.net> writes
>On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:07:01 +0100, scott
><sc...@broadcast-warehouse.com> wrote:
>
>>is this guy for real
>>i am the only one here who thinks mark should remove mr ramseys dick
>>from his ass.
>
>lot of experience with! ;-)
ha ha
just as technical as to claim ramsey is superior to V.
*******************************************************
Broadcast Warehouse ( FM Transmitters and accessories )
website: www.broadcast-warehouse.com
email: in...@broadcast-warehouse.com
phone/fax: inland (uk) 0181 2880192
international +44 181 2880192
*******************************************************
John Ramsey
I've been sitting back here observing the banter between all and am
fascinated at the flaming and expert talk. Seems to me that Wyman was simply
comparing the harmonic spectral purity in the spectrum analyzer plots - and
that has nothing to do with one being PLL and one being free running, am I
wrong on this?
When one designs a kit, it has to produce the best possible results for the
greatest number of builders, and unfortunately all builders are not the
same. Therefore one has to design for ease of assembly, testing and
alignment - not to mention trying to stay legal. Sure we could produce a
broadcast quality kit, many caribbean countries use our custom equipment for
that purpose - but to have novice builders attempt such would be suicide!
Our techs have a 'wall of shame' attesting to some kit builders expertise!
My best wishes to all on the group and thanks for letting me add my two
cents!
Cheers, John Ramsey
****** wrote in message <35cfb188...@news.telepath.com>...
: )
junk(or substandard for those politically correct people out there).I put it
together exellent,keep it tuned and cool.I've done practically everything but
dip it in gold,and it still sounds like shit.I also think that it's sort of
cheesy that all you are talking about spectral output and such.These ramsey
units don't even put out a watt!They put out 75 mw in high power mode.At this
level,the harmonics could be the same height as the fundamental and it wouldn't
matter,because it's still 75 mw.I've given up on ramsey.It has this hum i can't
get rid of,and that's only when I keep it away from other devices(such as my
mixer board!).I've ordered a Veronica PLL.Oh yeah,and ramsey can't even make a
friggin' 50 ohm output!They use 75 ohm!AAAHHHHHHHHHHH!
Kent Atwater
WCO...@now-online.com
>Veronia:
>Ramsey FM-100:
>Veronia:
>Ramsey FM-100:
> Winner: FM-100
>-Mark Wyman
I Noticed one thing,you did not mention the price. The Ramsey is
$350 and the Veronica is $129 not much of a apple to apple
comparison. I HAD a Ramsey and the audio was SHIT! The
Veronica sounds great for what it is,1/3 the price.
Mike Roberts
BIAS COMMS
recently, and the harmonics were pretty good, but there were substantial spurs
close to the carrier (it appeared several times as you tuned across the band!).
We think you might be comparing apples to biscuits, because the Veronica is
designed to be just part of a system, and the FM 100 is intended to be a
complete "station in a box". If you want a one-box solution, the Ramsey MAY be
a good choice, but if you are prepared to drill a few holes in aluminium boxes,
and invest in connectors, the Veronica stuff works exceptionally well.
BIAS COMMS
Everything gets easier with practice, except getting up in the morning!
Mark Wyman
WCO...@NOW-ONLINE.COM wrote in message <6qqt3j$ji2$1...@news10.ispnews.com>...
>"Mark Wyman" <wyman...@servtech.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Remove NEWS from my e-mail address to reply.
>
>I Noticed one thing,you did not mention the price. The Ramsey is
>$350 and the Veronica is $129 not much of a apple to apple
>comparison. I HAD a Ramsey and the audio was SHIT! The
>Veronica sounds great for what it is,1/3 the price.
>
>Mike Roberts
>
What I actually failed to note was the TOTAL system cost. This includes the
limiters and filters and compressors and display and case and power supply
and time spent putting everything together and mixer and other various
features. This makes the Veronica NON-PLL the same price or more if you
don't have that stuff just lying about.
Have you read into the mods that you can do to the Ramsey kits to improve
audio quality dramatically. The crap audio was only on early versions of the
kit unfortunately, and was fixed. Call their tech support for this since I
forgot what I had done.
-Mark Wyman
broadcast
<wyman...@servtech.com> writes
>
>WCO...@NOW-ONLINE.COM wrote in message <6qqt3j$ji2$1...@news10.ispnews.com>...
>>"Mark Wyman" <wyman...@servtech.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>I Noticed one thing,you did not mention the price. The Ramsey is
>>$350 and the Veronica is $129 not much of a apple to apple
>>comparison. I HAD a Ramsey and the audio was SHIT! The
>>Veronica sounds great for what it is,1/3 the price.
>>
>>Mike Roberts
>>
>
>limiters and filters and compressors and display and case and power supply
>and time spent putting everything together and mixer and other various
>features. This makes the Veronica NON-PLL the same price or more if you
>don't have that stuff just lying about.
>
>Have you read into the mods that you can do to the Ramsey kits to improve
>audio quality dramatically. The crap audio was only on early versions of the
>kit unfortunately, and was fixed. Call their tech support for this since I
>forgot what I had done.
>
> -Mark Wyman
>
>
are you sure when you say you are not employed by ramsey?!?!?!?
LLP34
works like it should is fine witn me.
al...@my-dejanews.com
Why do you want to compare a BA1404 based xmtr with a non-BA1404 xmtr ?
The BA1404 IS THE PROBLEM and all xmtr's using this chip have bad audio and
bad RF.
:=)
l.d._brewer
>
>Hi folks!
>
>Why do you want to compare a BA1404 based xmtr with a non-BA1404 xmtr ?
>
>The BA1404 IS THE PROBLEM and all xmtr's using this chip have bad audio and
>bad RF.
>
For those who don't know, the BA-1404 was designed for use in devices
such as those that would allow either a cassette deck or a CD player
to be transmitted into your car's FM receiver. The BA-1404 was never
designed to be a broadcast transmitter device, although some have
used it with marginal results for the purpose of broadcasting at lower
power levels. The drawbacks to the chip are the limited RF output,and
questionable audio quality. But HEY ! Whatta 'ya expect from one little
chip anyway ??
Regardless of all the misguided banter regarding the BA-1404, the bottom
line is still the same. If you want a good sounding kit designed to be
a 'low power FM transmitter' the best bet is to get a PLL based kit of
recent design, and if you want stereo, get a stereo coder kit to go
along with it.
We sell a wide range of PLL based, low power FM kits at our website.
I will be reviewing the very nice, LCD PLL transmitter from Broadcast
Warehouse soon, and I have inside information that we will also be
selling new PLL unit designs from Veronica and FRB. Both have indicated
that there are new PLL designs on the way, and at the rate things are
going, every new release brings new quality, features and reliability.
Technology marches on while we're sleeping !
Hang in there, and kick the FCC in the ass every chance you get....
L.D.Brewer
http://www.ldbrewer.com
ldbr...@flanet.com
1-800-886-8023
John Lundgren
> Hi folks!
> Why do you want to compare a BA1404 based xmtr with a non-BA1404 xmtr ?
> The BA1404 IS THE PROBLEM and all xmtr's using this chip have bad audio and
> bad RF.
> :=)
Talk is cheap. Prove it. At least others here have given something
substantial besides just another opinion.
Prove it.
--
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Wlrx995
>> bad RF.
My BA-1404 based transmitter puts out GREAT sound, I have no complaints. Just
thought I would put my $0.02 worth...
Don Weaver
Laser 99.5 WLRX
The Lakeshore's Station
http://members.aol.com/wlrx995
YaesuTom
>> bad RF.
I disagree...if you use the ba1404 as a stereo generator ONLY, and use a pll
for the transmitter, it can be a decent stereo generator. No not as good as a
veronica or broadcast warehouse stereo generator, but it does work, and works
pretty damn good for just one little chip.
I was using the mpx output from a fm-10 amplified with a op-amp into a
broadcast warehouse pll, and it sounded great. But after a while...it was like
it started "wearing out". I dont know what happened, but it gradually sounded
crappier and crappier until i just got rid of it.
yaes...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/yaesutom
Daniel Troglin
>
> Hi folks!
>
> Why do you want to compare a BA1404 based xmtr with a non-BA1404 xmtr ?
>
> bad RF.
>
Never said better.
Why use a ba 1404 when a 74103, 4027, 4066 and an ne5532 will make a
dam good stereo generator. 50db channel seperation and very low noise! A
2n4416 or j310 jfet along with bb409 or mv1172 varactor make a dam fine
VCO and a MC145151p2 to lock it all up. Add the prescaler of your choice
and you have a transmitter that will sound every bit as good as standard
broadcast. Dont forget that the processing equipment is all so very
important, you should some way to switch between your on air signal and
and the signal comming out of the baord. It is a good idea to have a
eqalizer just before the compressor/limiter.
Later Big Dan
Radio free Indianapolis Defunked For Now
: )
times better than my BA1404 based FM25 from Ramsey.I don't know exactly what
chips it uses, but there is no noise and it sounds better at the stereo than it
does at the mixer going to the transmitter.Even running into a dummy load it
sounds cleaner.I'm never going back to my FM25.
Martin Spencer
> Dont forget that the processing equipment is all so very
> important, you should some way to switch between your on air signal > and
> and the signal coming out of the board.
===============================================
Very good advice - use your ears!!
Cheers,
Martin.
al...@my-dejanews.com
NOlundg...@mail.rancho.cc.ca.us wrote:
> Talk is cheap. Prove it. At least others here have given something
> substantial besides just another opinion.
>
> Prove it.
>
Ok, as indicated in Rohm's (BA1404 manufacturer) datasheet, the audio
distortion is 3%
This is too much for high quality audio, and too much for the ears !
Mark Wyman
adds to more distortion down the line when modulating. However I don't
expect may other PLL transmitters to have any less than 2% distortion specs
upon transmission (guessing), mostly due to the un-linearities of varactor
diodes used in the PLL for modulating. Many top of the line transmitters
have complex curve shaping circuits to reduce this to a minimum. Not any low
cost units that I am familiar with have this.
al...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6recob$3uu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
web_...@hotmail.com
"Mark Wyman" <wyman...@servtech.com> wrote:
> Wow, I didn't see that spec. That explains a few things then, and only
> adds to more distortion down the line when modulating. However I don't
> expect may other PLL transmitters to have any less than 2% distortion specs
> upon transmission (guessing), mostly due to the un-linearities of varactor
> diodes used in the PLL for modulating. Many top of the line transmitters
> have complex curve shaping circuits to reduce this to a minimum. Not any low
> cost units that I am familiar with have this.
>
> al...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6recob$3uu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >distortion is 3%
> >
> >This is too much for high quality audio, and too much for the ears !
I thought that the Audio modulation on the Varactor was so very very small
that all circuits are linear with that little a change.
We need only 75Khz deviation , that works out to be about 15mV voltage change
on the Varactor for a few itsy bitsy pico farad change. It has to be linear in
that little delta.
The Broadcast Warehouse new PLL feeds the Audio almost directly into the
Varactor and it claims much better specs than 3% audio distortion.
Web from http://members.tripod.com/~transmitters
web_...@hotmail.com
>
> al...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6recob$3uu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >>
> >
> >Ok, as indicated in Rohm's (BA1404 manufacturer) datasheet, the audio
> >distortion is 3%
> >
> >This is too much for high quality audio, and too much for the ears !
Just to put in perspective.
Audio preamps can have 0.001% distortion or so
good Power amps can have .01% distortion or better that suddenly becomes 10%
or more as you increase the output close to its max and clipping occurs
But speakers can have about 2% distortion or more all the while at mid band,
with about 10%-20% distortion at the lower frequencies like 15-50 Hz.
My rough guess is that car radios based on the popular ICs have 1% distortion
at 1/2 of rated Audio Power, rising to 10%-15% at 90% of rated Audio out.
So maybe the BA1404's distortion can just be noticed on the average car radio,
while ofcourse it would be murder on this spec on better radios.
I think the problem here while comparing various Exciter kits is NOT -
Availability of technology : Today most technology is available everywhere,
atleast for such simple things like FM Exciters. Look at any kit and the parts
come from all over the world. ( with most important technology actually coming
from the land of the Free and the Brave)
Availability of good RF designers who understand what they are doing :
Obviously all manufacturers can hire gurus as they live everywhere
Impetus to design good kits : There are professional stations and serious
pirates everywhere. There are also people who want a cheapo system to
broadcast around the home/yard/dorm
I think the major contributors to different specs/technology seen in
transmitters are --
Initial design goals based on initial reading of market requirements : Some
designers decide to make cheaper kits to make Yardcasters so that more people
can experiment with RF / more people can use it to broadcast around the house.
While some designers decide to make much better/expensive kits for a few
professionals / serious hobbyists to transmit quality stuff.
Lack of reading the market as it matures : Some manufacturers ignore the
market changes like amount people are ready to pay for an Exciter, facilities
considered mandatory by a new market, products of other manufacturers that
have raised the bar, new IC chips and technology available and most
importantly the globalisation of the market via Internet marketing ( making
UK kits more easily available in the large USA market than ever before)
Given the above, I would like to make a prophecy :
Ramsey will within the next 12 month make a new high spec PLL LCD Modular
Stereo transmitter not based on the BA1404, with various plug-in modules so
that you can configure the transmitter you want by deciding what modules you
want.
(They have to, else they will loose their initial high ranking in the US
transmitter kit market to imports, and in any case the BA1404 is dead, long
live the BA1404)
Mark Mallory
: Ok, as indicated in Rohm's (BA1404 manufacturer) datasheet, the audio
: distortion is 3%
No, this is a misreading of the spec. What it actually says is that the
MAXIMUM mpx output voltage (pin 14) is 200 mv p-p at the point where the THD
is 3%, which in fact is the CLIPPING LEVEL for this output. In other
words, if you increase the audio level until the THD becomes 3% (as a
result of the onset of clipping) the output will be 200 mv p-p. If the
level is reduced even slightly, the THD will drop dramatically.
In the FM-10a, the level at pin 14 is only about 64 mv p-p for 75 kHz
deviation, which is well below the clipping level. The THD is well
below 1% (probably <.1%) under these conditions.
BIAS COMMS
The distortion out of either the Veronica or BW exciter is very small- much
less than the distortion introduced by the demodulation process in the average
receiver, and certainly MUCH less than the distortion introduced by almost ANY
loudspeaker!
If you want good stereo, with low noise and distortion, you'll HAVE to go with
a discrete component design.
nom...@att.com
>This is too much for the ears !
>
That's a fact!
I do in-the home 'casting and I just got a Veronica "low power stereo"
board to replace my ramsey 25.
It's like an insect was removed from my ears
No hum, more than sufficient power.
BA1404 RIP.