uncirculated/lost OTR
Dziadsj
What are some examples of radio shows known to exist but are not made available
because of donor instructions to archives, misc. copyrights, etc.?
What shows would you personally like to see released?
What shows are known to be lost that would top your wish list?
Just curious,
thanks.
Steve
Gray
>What shows are known to be lost that would top your wish list?
I'd love to see all of the lost shows from "The Fat Man," "Vic and
Sade," and Rathbone's "Sherlock Holmes." The relatively few remaining
shows from those series are very entertaining.
Gray
Elizabeth McLeod
>
> This is a question from a relative newcomer.
>
> What are some examples of radio shows known to exist but are not made available
> because of donor instructions to archives, misc. copyrights, etc.?
> What shows would you personally like to see released?
Well, top of the list for me would be the long run of Fred Allen shows held
jointly by the Boston Public Library and the Library of Congress. The BPL owns
the copyrights on Allen's shows, and has mediocre tape copies available for
on-premises listening. The original discs for these shows are all part of the
enormous NBC Collection at the Library Of Congress. These shows run from June
1935 thru June 1940 -- with only a few missing programs in the run; and then
from October 1945 thru May 1949. More are missing from this postwar run than
the prewar run -- almost the entire 1946-47 seasons' discs were stolen from
NBC at some point before 1963. (Many of these '46-'47 shows are in OTR
circulation, but the status of the original discs is unknown.)
Another important run of shows held by the LOC is the Goodman Ace Collection
-- which includes almost three full years of pristine, unedited "Easy Aces"
programs between February 1935 and December 1937. These are complete network
broadcasts, not the edited Ziv reissues that are circulating in the OTR world,
and none of these LOC episodes have ever been circulated.
The LOC also holds a near-complete run of "Major Bowes' Original Amateur Hour"
from 1935-44, with rights controlled by the Bowes estate. This show is an
acquired taste unless you're a fan of musical saw players and bad harmonica
solos -- but I find it fascinating.
And, buried within a vast collection of musical variety programs donated to
LOC by the estate of Andre Kostalanetz, there are several 1933-34 programs
featuring the influential comedy team of Stoopnagle and Budd which would be of
great interest if they were to become available.
Columbia University owns one of the most important collections existing of
1930s news and public affairs-related programming, in its Brander Matthews
Dramatic Library Collection. These recordings, dating between 1929 and 1938,
are airchecks made on uncoated aluminum by a professor who used them as
examples in his speech classes -- and include radio talks by literally
hundreds of important public figures of the Depression era -- in many cases,
the only surviving broadcast material by these individuals. Tape copies of
these discs are held by the LOC, but Columbia controls the rights.
> What shows are known to be lost that would top your wish list?
>
No question -- the 1929-43 serial-drama version of "Amos 'n' Andy," hands down
the most important, most influential radio series ever broadcast. 4090
episodes aired in this format -- less than fifty survive.
"Vic and Sade" would also be a pleasant series to recover. Everybody knows the
story of how P&G destroyed its collection of discs for this program - but
these weren't the only recordings to exist. For much of its run, V&S was
recorded for later broadcast by stations in Canada -- and pressings of these
discs were distributed to many stations North Of The Border. Most surviving
V&S episodes come from these made-for-Canada discs -- and more of them should
be out there.
adams
<liz...@midcoast.com> wrote:
>Well, top of the list for me would be the long run of Fred
Allen shows held
>jointly by the Boston Public Library and the Library of
Congress. The BPL owns
>the copyrights on Allen's shows, and has mediocre tape copies
available for
>on-premises listening. The original discs for these shows are
all part of the
>enormous NBC Collection at the Library Of Congress. These shows
run from June
>1935 thru June 1940 -- with only a few missing programs in the
run;
Hi Elizabeth,
I've been working my way through the Benny Program's Buck Benny
Series show by show through late 36, early 37 into their Feud
shows, and would love to hear the corresponding Fred Allen
Shows!! The cast are constantly making reference to listening
to Fred Allen on Wednesday night, and of course, taking pot
shots at Fred and his cast, and I wish I could tune in to Fred's
Shows too... :-)
Maybe one day these shows will be released and I can here the
other side of "the feud". The titles listed on Jerry Haendiges'
web site are tantalizing!
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Unknown
and also later Shadows.
All this stuff undoubtedly exists on AFRS Armed Forces Radio Service
discs, but they haven't surfaced yet.
CHYR...@worldnet.att.net
Crosby/Woodbury Soap shows are known to exist. The earlier Crosby was
a much different musical show than the post-Kraft stuff.
Jim Bennie
wrote:
> NBC trashed most of the prewar Kraft Music Hall shows and only 2 Bing
> Crosby/Woodbury Soap shows are known to exist. The earlier Crosby was
> a much different musical show than the post-Kraft stuff.
No kidding?! I heard one on a local station last night. Ken Niles
was the announcer (with that early 30s diction he later relaxed),
and it sounded like Bernice Hansen doing one of the characters in
the commercial dialogue.
Jim
Joe Salerno
--
Joe Salerno
Video Works! Is it working for you?
PO Box 273405 - Houston TX 77277-3405
http://joe.salerno.com
Fax: 603-415-7616
<TC> wrote in message news:38eba0f4...@nntp.fuse.net...
Elizabeth McLeod
program, if the guests were the Boswell Sisters. There are two others -- one
from May 1934 and another from March 1935. All of these were
privately-recorded airchecks which were unearthed on the West Coast in the
early 1970s. There are also a number of fragmentary airchecks extant from
Crosby's "Cremo Singer" series dating to November and December 1931, including
one complete 15 minute program with David Ross announcing.
The major culprit in the loss of most of the early Crosby material, however,
wasn't NBC at all -- NBC actually trashed comparatively little of its radio
holdings, although RCA Victor did dispose of a lot of NBC-related stuff over
the years. The situation affecting Crosby is that NBC's Radio Recording
Division didn't operate in Hollywood until about 1939, so programs originating
from there were not regularly recorded by the network until that time.
But even more significantly it was a massive fire in 1943 that destroyed
Bing's home. He had kept a near-complete archive of private-studio airchecks
of his broadcasts, and they were all stored at his residence -- and all of
them were destroyed in that blaze. This is the major reason pre-1943 Crosby is
so scarce.
The 1930s-early 40's KMH shows may exist in other forms, however -- Johnny
Trotter regularly used the Electro-Vox studio in Hollywood to have weekly
airchecks made of the program. I own several loose 78rpm Electro-Vox discs
originally made for Trotter which contain KMH segments dating to November
1937-February 1938. None of these are complete programs, though -- and it's
unclear if Trotter even had the entire shows recorded. He may have just
commissioned recordings of the musical content and omitted the rest. But other
fragments of this type turn up from time to time, and it's possible that more
of them exist.
Unknown
49-52, the years that AFRS were operating at the same time as ILAM.
Another series that is largely lost is Dick Tracy. There is no doubt
that AFRS ran this, for it's mentioned in many network eps of Dick
Tracy. If the AFRS of that would surface.
If Mutual net. had lived up to their contract with Morse (to provide
him with a recording of every show, ILAM would exist today. It is not
known if they actually made these recordings after 1950, but they
stopped sending them to Morse in early 1950.
But conversely, if no recordings were made, perhaps the Mutual net
doesn't exist on AFRS past 1950.
It's evident that Mutual (or its affiliates) did make recordings
though, as there are sporadic episodes up to almost the very end of
the run.
The Shadows by "late" the 1949-54.
Jim Bennie
wrote:
> This was one of the three Woodbury shows that survive -- probably the
> 9/18/34 program, if the guests were the Boswell Sisters.
This is correct.
> There are also a number of fragmentary airchecks extant from
> Crosby's "Cremo Singer" series dating to November and December 1931,
> including one complete 15 minute program with David Ross announcing.
Part of this was played, too. The announcer was identified as
Harry Von Zell. Ol' Harry sure tried the pear-shaped read in those
early days.
Thanks for the note, Elizabeth.
Jim
Elizabeth McLeod
With Bing Crosby," which began in September 1931 and ran for two months. A
partial recording exists of the first program -- NBC commissioned RCA Victor
in Hollywood to record Crosby's premiere off the air in order to "evaluate the
competition." The recording was rather crudely made -- Victor/Hollywood wasn't
really equipped for radio recording at that point, and ended up recording the
broadcast simply by standing a microphone in front of a radio tuned to KHJ.
The recording was made on both 16"-33.3 and 12" 78rpm masters -- but the 16"
disc, containing the complete program, is apparently lost. All that survives
of this program are two 78rpm sides containing the first four minutes and the
last four minutes.
Ross took over as Crosby's announcer when Cremo Cigars took over sponsorship
in November 1931. and his tones were even more pear-shaped than Harry's -- he
was the proud winner of the 1931 Radio Diction Award presented by the American
Academy of Arts and Letters.
CHYR...@worldnet.att.net
Elizabeth McLeod wrote:
>The major culprit in the loss of most of the early Crosby material, however,
>wasn't NBC at all -- NBC actually trashed comparatively little of its radio
>holdings, although RCA Victor did dispose of a lot of NBC-related stuff over
>the years. The situation affecting Crosby is that NBC's Radio Recording
>Division didn't operate in Hollywood until about 1939, so programs originating
>from there were not regularly recorded by the network until that time.
I hate to EVER contradict Elizabeth but Carroll Carroll (yes, that was
his real name) Bing's principal writer on KMH wrote:
"Back when the past was the present, and I was writing Bing Crosby's
Kraft Music Hall Thursday nights on NBC, one of those rare few was our
engineer Murdo MacKenzie. Each week he would save the big electrical
transciptions of the show, for what use no one really knew. When he
was called to war, about 1943, I guess, he put his complete set of
recordings in a closet at the old NBC studios at Sunset and Vine in
Hollywood. He put an extra padlock on the door and a sign, PERSONAL
PROPERTY OF MURDO MACKENZIE. DO NOT DISTURB. After he and a few
million others had secured the peace he came back to find his closet
had a new door and was full of brooms and mops. NBC execs could only
say, 'We needed the space.' So the ability of future generations to
rehear the hundreds of hours of Bing and his guests ... all the
biggest names of the day ... were in a sense just one more casualty of
WWII." (None of Your Business: Confessions of a Renegade Radio Writer
as quoted in Bingang, Dec. 1990, p13)
Elizabeth McLeod
>
>
>
> "Back when the past was the present, and I was writing Bing Crosby's
> Kraft Music Hall Thursday nights on NBC, one of those rare few was our
> engineer Murdo MacKenzie. Each week he would save the big electrical
> transciptions of the show, for what use no one really knew. When he
> was called to war, about 1943, I guess, he put his complete set of
> recordings in a closet at the old NBC studios at Sunset and Vine in
> Hollywood. He put an extra padlock on the door and a sign, PERSONAL
> PROPERTY OF MURDO MACKENZIE. DO NOT DISTURB. After he and a few
> million others had secured the peace he came back to find his closet
> had a new door and was full of brooms and mops. NBC execs could only
> say, 'We needed the space.' So the ability of future generations to
> rehear the hundreds of hours of Bing and his guests ... all the
> biggest names of the day ... were in a sense just one more casualty of
> WWII." (None of Your Business: Confessions of a Renegade Radio Writer
> as quoted in Bingang, Dec. 1990, p13)
I've seen this account, but there's an important distinction -- MacKenzie's
recordings weren't *NBC's* recordings, nor were they the *only* recordings of
the program to exist. Once the Radio Recording Division began operating in
Hollywood, at least one set of discs for each important show would be held in
the NBC Central Files. These are the discs that eventually ended up at the
Library Of Congress, and which were carefully preserved by the network over
the years. Most of the NBC collection at LOC is still uncatalogued, but
there's a better-than-even chance that the missing KMH shows, at least from
1939 forward, survive in that collection.
However, multiple copy discs for many of the shows would also be made -- for
sponsors, for performers, for others connected to the show. MacKenzie no doubt
recieved a set of copy discs -- as did Bing himself. *These* are the discs
that were purged from NBC's closet and which were destroyed in the 1943 fire
at Crosby's home.
NBC's archival collection could be tapped into by performers desiring copies
of shows even years after the original broadcast -- and I've seen discs that
prove that pre-war KMH's were extant in the NBC Central Files after WW2. I've
personally inspected a set of 12" vinyl Orthacoustic pressings made for Bob
Burns in 1946 of an October 1940 KMH broadcast -- and these pressings were
obviously dubbed from 16" lacquers in the Central Files (you can hear wow at
the changeover points indicating that the dubbing engineer wasn't as careful
as he should have been!) That Burns could order a copy of this specific
broadcast six years after it aired indicates pretty clearly that the shows
were still around and being well-cared-for.
So, it's really not a contradiction -- just another facet of a rather complex story.
ast...@my-deja.com
items on my lost-show wish list are:
1) the 1934-1936 Wyllis Cooper Lights Out shows (especially the 15-
minute ones) - none of these are known to exist (though some vendors
have packaged various later versions of The Dark and Chicken Heart and
sold them as 1934 episodes). I only know of two scripts that are in
existence from this era and only a handful of epiosde titles or plots
are known.
2) Stay Tuned For Terror - a 39-episode horror show from 1945 all
written by Robert Bloch.
3) the 18 remaining missing episodes of Quiet Please (scripts for all
but one are available from University of Maryland)
4) any episodes of the late 1930s horror show "Black Night" which was
broadcast locally from Fort Worth. (not to be confused with the variety
series of the same name). Like the early Lights Out, this show was
local but developed a somewhat minor national reputation for it's gore
and horrific plots.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Joe Salerno
recordings off of their studio lines so programs should exist after 1950.
For example, I have a later vintage Lone Ranger on AFRS.
--
Joe Salerno
Video Works! Is it working for you?
PO Box 273405 - Houston TX 77277-3405
http://joe.salerno.com
Fax: 603-415-7616
DRutsala
>items on my lost-show wish list are:
>
>
I think there are more horror show collectors than you may think. Max Schmid,
who does an old time radio show on WBAI in NY, plays as much of this stuff as
he can get his hands on.
Listeners seem to appreciate it, and always ask for more.
Although I've been a fan and collector of OTR since the I was little kid
(anyone remember Radiola records?), I am somewhat new to the mp3 scene, and I
find it surprising the stuff internet collectors seem most interested in.
I've always been especially interested in the kids shows, and have found less
of this than I would expect.
I'm not sure about their accessibility, but I have been unable to find any
episodes of Jack Amstrong.
Jack Armstrong holds a special place in my heart, because it played a
significant role in my interest in OTR.
Other than the stories about OTR that my mother told me, my first exposure to
this wonderful art form was on an old box collection made by RCA, and narrated
by Jack Benny. This collection had one record devoted to drama. I played it
to endlessly.
Then, some time in the mid-seventies, Wheaties Cereal offered a Jack Armstrong
record if you sent in box tops or something. I was very excited about this,
and sent for it immediately. I played this record over and over, till I had it
memorized. I still quote lines from those shows.
I think this record exposed me to Radiola, but perhaps it was something else,
and I started buying a bunch of stuff from their catalog.
In the last ten years, most of my contact with OTR has been through Max
Schmid's two shows on WBAI. But now that I've discovered mp3, I've been able
to catch up on all kinds of stuff which I never heard before.
It's a great art form, and I don't think I'll ever tire of it.
Dziadsj
>items on my lost-show wish list are:
>
>minute ones) - none of these are known to exist (though some vendors
>have packaged various later versions of The Dark and Chicken Heart and
>sold them as 1934 episodes). I only know of two scripts that are in
>existence from this era and only a handful of epiosde titles or plots
>are known.
>
>2) Stay Tuned For Terror - a 39-episode horror show from 1945 all
>written by Robert Bloch.
>
>3) the 18 remaining missing episodes of Quiet Please (scripts for all
>but one are available from University of Maryland)
>
>4) any episodes of the late 1930s horror show "Black Night" which was
>broadcast locally from Fort Worth. (not to be confused with the variety
>series of the same name). Like the early Lights Out, this show was
>local but developed a somewhat minor national reputation for it's gore
>and horrific plots.
Two points on this one:
I am more or less interested in horror, too.
(e.g. Frankenstein from the early 30s was interesting ...not the best I've
heard but interesting) although my main interest is in S.F. I am trying to get
a broad education on general OTR as well as find out about my main genre
interest. Anything by Bloch would float my boat.
Second point: is a followup question (for 50 points, here's the toss-up)...what
more can you tell me about scripts that exist on lost recordings....is this a
common occurence or just a sometime thing?
Thanks to everyone for the responses.
Steve
ast...@my-deja.com
> Second point: is a followup question (for 50 points, here's the toss-
up)...what
> more can you tell me about scripts that exist on lost
recordings....is this a
> common occurence or just a sometime thing?
Well, it seems that there should be more scripts for OTR in existence
than actual shows if for no other reason than the fact that scripts
were preserved in a written format whereas programs were not preserved
unless someone recorded them (which didn't usually occur with live
shows unless someone made a wire recording etc.)
Here are some of the scripts I know of that are available for
various "lost" horror shows. If anyone knows of any others, please
share the info (I am currently writing a book on OTR horror and am
looking for any info I can get) :
1) All of the Witch's Tale scripts (about 330 shows) are in existence
2) All but one of the Quiet Please scripts are available
3) 2 Lights Out scripts are available from Wyllis Cooper's 1st stint
(1934-36). One of these (and all the Quiet Please scripts)are part of
the University of Maryland's radio script collection. They were left to
the University by the estate of Wyllis Cooper along with other,
personal materials.
4) Around 50-70 Lights Out scripts are available for missing shows
during Arch Oboler's 1st stint on the show (1936-39). All of the
remaining Arch Oboler scripts for the series may also be in existence
but the person holding them is unwilling to release them.
5) All of the Inner Sanctum scripts are supposedly available (around
530 shows)
6) Most of the Hall of Fantasy scripts may be available (including
those from the 1950-1952 run that most collectors have never even heard
about. The show had 3 runs: 6 months in 1947 from KALL, Utah [6 shows
exist, no other scripts known], 2 years locally from WGN [most scripts
may exist], and a total of about 11 months in 1952-1953 [the national
run from WGN on Mutual, all scripts may exist])
There are probably others that I don't know about. Often, these scripts
come from the peronsal belongings of the writers themselves. Others
come from various libraries around the country.
Don Saklad
library music department curator Diane Ota and sound
archivist Ed Fenninger for recordings? They have been
particularly problematical with regard to customer service
at our BPL!
Elizabeth McLeod
The Fred Allen recordings are under the auspices of the Rare Book Department
at the BPL, not the Music Department, and are available to the public only in
the form of on-premises cassette listening copies. The tapes may not be
checked out or copied in any way -- all you can do is listen to them in the
Rare Book Department.
This has long been something of a point of contention for Allen enthusiasts.
When Portland Hoffa Sullivan Rines died in 1990, she left the copyrights on
Allen's works, and the recordings -- reel to reel tape dubs made by NBC in
1963 -- to the BPL, along with a cash stipend of, if I recall correctly,
$10,000 to cover the cost of making the recordings accessible to the public.
Some fans argue that the limited availability of the tapes isn't really what
Portland had in mind -- but the Library doesn't really seem to have much of a
direction in mind as to improving access.
It may be they fear bootlegging of the tapes -- but one would think they'd be
willing to go in for a proper commercial reissue if someone were to go to the
trouble of negotiating a rights agreement with them. If this were to happen,
one would hope that the dealer would use the Library of Congress NBC discs as
the masters, and not the BPL tape dubs, which are not in the best of condition.
Joseph Teller
>I'm not sure about their accessibility, but I have been unable to find any
>episodes of Jack Amstrong.
>
>Jack Armstrong holds a special place in my heart, because it played a
>significant role in my interest in OTR.
Jack Armstrong episodes can be found as part of the SPERDVAC library
collection, you'd need to join SPERDVAC to get access to them as tape
rentals and then make your own copies from tape to digital.
SPERDVAC is one of the oldest and well known preservation
organizations for OTR.
Joe
Joseph Teller joet...@mindspring.com
"Put Some Fantasy Back In Your Life!"
The Fantasy Library
http://www.fantasylibrary.com
Don Saklad
recordings or both?...
Dziadsj
Steve
Brain Death
>I'm not sure about their accessibility, but I have been unable to find any
>episodes of Jack Amstrong.
>
>Jack Armstrong holds a special place in my heart, because it played a
>significant role in my interest in OTR.
I enjoy the Jack Armstrong stories as well. There are about 100
episodes I have seen in absotr, mostly from about 1940-41, probably
posted three or four years ago. Try the interocitor's FTP site, there
are about 30 or so shows there that span the basic run from about
episode 1517 to about episode 1630.
AFAIK, there are only the 100 or so surviving JA episodes, sad as it
seems.
BD
William S. Davis
>On 06 Apr 2000 21:11:34 GMT, drut...@aol.com (DRutsala) wrote:
>
>>I'm not sure about their accessibility, but I have been unable to find any
>>episodes of Jack Amstrong.
>>
>>Jack Armstrong holds a special place in my heart, because it played a
>>significant role in my interest in OTR.
>
>I enjoy the Jack Armstrong stories as well. There are about 100
>episodes I have seen in absotr, mostly from about 1940-41, probably
>posted three or four years ago. Try the interocitor's FTP site, there
>are about 30 or so shows there that span the basic run from about
>episode 1517 to about episode 1630.
>
I listened to some of these a few years back when Chuck Scheden was
still on WBBM -- interesting stuff indeed.
Personally, I'm a Superman fan. Thanks in no small part to DC Comics,
etc., a large number of these shows were saved and put in storage,
just as almost any other item spun off from one of their characters
was -- for example, also in their vaults was the complete run of 17
Max Fleischer/Paramount Superman cartoons from 1941-43.
Unfortunately, while the entire original syndicated run of 325 shows
exists, as well as nearly every episode aired from fall 1945 to fall
1948, aside from a handful of others that exist there's practically
none remaining from 1943 to September 1945. That's what I guess I'd
especially like to see show up somewhere.
Bill Davis
The Lansing Railfan
http://www.trainweb.org/lansingrailfan/
A TrainWeb Web Ring Site