OT: Has long-wave power been reduced?

[Scott]

Just returned from Denmark. Last time I was there I was able to
receive Radio 4 on long-wave albeit the reception was not great (only
after dark). However, this time there was no Radio 4 whatsoever. Have
they reduced the power output to save money or prolong valve life, or
is there another explanation?

As an aside, is the signal likely to come from Droitwich or from one
of the Scottish transmitters? Although Westerglen and Burghead must
be closer, the power output of Droitwich is (or was?) much greater so
I assume it carries further.

[bolta...@boltar.world]

On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:05:03 +0000
Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>Just returned from Denmark. Last time I was there I was able to
>receive Radio 4 on long-wave albeit the reception was not great (only
>after dark). However, this time there was no Radio 4 whatsoever. Have
>they reduced the power output to save money or prolong valve life, or
>is there another explanation?

Isn't propagation better during the summer? Or am I thinking of shortwave?

B2003

[Scott]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:44:56 +0000 (UTC), bolta...@boltar.world
wrote:

Actually the previous visit was in January also, staying at the same
address.

[bolta...@boltar.world]

Just one of those things then I suppose. MW long distance reception tends to
be pretty variable and I guess LW must be similar.

B2003

[Scott]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:48:31 +0000 (UTC), bolta...@boltar.world

wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:41:22 +0000
>Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:44:56 +0000 (UTC), bolta...@boltar.world
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:05:03 +0000
>>>Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Just returned from Denmark. Last time I was there I was able to
>>>>receive Radio 4 on long-wave albeit the reception was not great (only
>>>>after dark). However, this time there was no Radio 4 whatsoever. Have
>>>>they reduced the power output to save money or prolong valve life, or
>>>>is there another explanation?
>>>
>>>Isn't propagation better during the summer? Or am I thinking of shortwave?
>>>
>>>B2003
>>
>>Actually the previous visit was in January also, staying at the same
>>address.
>
>Just one of those things then I suppose. MW long distance reception tends to
>be pretty variable and I guess LW must be similar.
>

So can we discount the possibility that because of the apparent
shortage of valves for the Droitwich transmitter (only six left
according to a report as I recall) they might have reduced the power
to extend the life of the remaining valves.

[bolta...@boltar.world]

No idea. But I find it extremely hard to believe that there is nowhere in the
world that could manufacture new ones given the spec sheet.

B2003

[Scott]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:11:41 +0000 (UTC), bolta...@boltar.world
wrote:

Others expressed the same scepticism. Conspiracy theory is that the
BBC wants to close long wave (as it closed WS medium wave) and lack of
components would be a good excuse.

[tony sayer]

In article <kcmlnd$anv$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, bolta...@boltar.world
scribeth thus

China and Russia.

But theres no incentive to do that and if the TMS lot don't grumble too
much I can see it being switched off 'ere long;!...

--
Tony Sayer

[J G Miller]

On Thursday, January 10th, 2013 09:44:56 +0000, boltar2003 wrote:

> Isn't propagation better during the summer?

LF and MF propagation is best during the long dark hours of winter.

Those dedicated to MF reception go up to Northern Norway and Sweden
in winter and lay down very long wires in order to receive trans-Atlantic
AM (standard broadcast band 550 kHz - 1620 kHz) radio stations

> Or am I thinking of shortwave?

HF propagation is generally best at night, but when sun spot
cycle is at its peak can be even better during the day.

Of course during the day best propagation (longest distance)
is for bands 15 MHz and above, and during the night for bands
12 MHz and below.

VHF and UHF propagation is best when there is tropospheric temperature
inversions which are most likely to occur during the summer months,
although they can occur in winter. In fact there was a noticeable
one over North Western Europe this past weekend.

[J G Miller]

On Thursday, January 10th, 2013, at 17:27:07h +0000, Scott wrote:

> Conspiracy theory is that the BBC wants to close long wave
> (as it closed WS medium wave) and lack of components would
> be a good excuse.

That is not conspiracy theory but a fact that the BBC long term
plan is to close down all AM analog broadcasts.

It is bordering on conspiracy theory to suggest that they are
have asked Arqiva to turn down the power on the transmitter.

What readers really need to know though, is whether or not
you were trying to receive BBC Radio 4 198 kHz LF within an
hotel and/or steel framed building and whether or not you
actually tried reception at an outdoors location.

With all the electronic equipment in use nowadays and even
CFL bulbs, there is a horrendous amount of local interference
generated on the LF and MF bands within buildings, especially
commercial multi-storey ones, which blocks out reception of
all but the local 200 kW AM radio station.

[Scott]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:49:30 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
wrote:

No, it was not a hotel. It was a relative's house. I did not try
outside (a bit cold for radio listening) but the same location as when
I stayed there in 2010 in the same month.

[J G Miller]

On Thursday, January 10th, 2013, at 21:42:18h +0000, Scott explained:

> It was a relative's house.

Where do they stand on the Schleswig-Holstein Question?

A helpful and informative contemporary news article at

<http://www.nytimes.COM/1863/12/12/news/the-schleswig-holstein-question.html>

begins

QUOTE

It is unfortunate that the first views of European questions are
gained in America through the English press. We have all had full
opportunity of testing the untrustworthiness and the malignant
falsehood of the leading English journals with regard to American
questions. Why should we expect greater accuracy or honesty
with respect to continental?

UNQUOTE

> but the same location as when I stayed there in 2010 in the same month.

And, most importantly, at the same time of day?

> I did not try outside (a bit cold for radio listening)

Hmm, Glasgow, Scotland current temperature 3 degrees Celsius, Fog, dew point 3 degrees
wheras Viborg, Danmark current temperature 0 degrees Celsius, Cloudy, dew point -5 degrees

So not that much different.

I could understand if you had been in Yellowknife (currently - 27 degrees Celsius).
[Surprisingly Juneau, AK is a mild -1 degrees Celsius.]

Maybe you have not been getting your Scotts Porridge oats? ;) ;) ;)

[Scott]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:25:02 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
wrote:

>On Thursday, January 10th, 2013, at 21:42:18h +0000, Scott explained:
>
>> It was a relative's house.
>
>Where do they stand on the Schleswig-Holstein Question?

They live in Zealand :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealand

[snip]

>
>> but the same location as when I stayed there in 2010 in the same month.
>
>And, most importantly, at the same time of day?

Several times from about 1600 onwards, also one morning.

>
>> I did not try outside (a bit cold for radio listening)
>
>Hmm, Glasgow, Scotland current temperature 3 degrees Celsius, Fog, dew point 3 degrees
>wheras Viborg, Danmark current temperature 0 degrees Celsius, Cloudy, dew point -5 degrees
>
>So not that much different.

But I don't listen to the radio outside at home either :-)

>
>I could understand if you had been in Yellowknife (currently - 27 degrees Celsius).
>[Surprisingly Juneau, AK is a mild -1 degrees Celsius.]
>
>Maybe you have not been getting your Scotts Porridge oats? ;) ;) ;)

Indeed not. Continental breakfast all the way, being in Denmark at
the time :-)

I'm still wondering if they have reduced the output at Droitwich to
prolong the life of the valves given the reported difficulties in
sourcing replacements:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/oct/09/bbc-radio4-long-wave-goodbye

I have done a Google search but can find nothing to support this
theory.

Maybe Mark knows from inside knowledge?

[J G Miller]

On Friday, January 11th, 2013, at 11:44:19h +0000, Scott explained:

> They live in Zealand :-)

Well the Wikipage plus a Google image search gives the impression of it
being an area of outstanding natural beauty.

> Several times from about 1600 onwards, also one morning.

I would have been tempted to try as late at night as possible,
although it is surprising how just on the onset of darkness how
some long distance stations can just appear even over the top
of nearer lower power ones.

> But I don't listen to the radio outside at home either :-)

Yes but my remark was intended to be in the context of a five
minute or less trial, not a regular listening session.

And the other thing you should have tried if possible was
tuning in to 198 kHz on the car radio after dark if available.

> Continental breakfast all the way, being in Denmark at
> the time :-)

Which raises the question, for which meals do Danes
usually eat Danish bacon (double underlined for extra freshness)?

<http://armadillofood.files.wordpress.COM/2011/08/photo3.jpg>

> I'm still wondering if they have reduced the output at Droitwich to
> prolong the life of the valves given the reported difficulties in
> sourcing replacements

Most unlikely. In fact since the BBC want to close the service,
they would surely be happier the sooner the "valves" wear out,
and remember Arqiva are contracted to transmit the service at a
particular power level.

[Richard Evans]

On 09/01/2013 21:05, Scott wrote:
> Just returned from Denmark. Last time I was there I was able to
> receive Radio 4 on long-wave albeit the reception was not great (only
> after dark). However, this time there was no Radio 4 whatsoever. Have
> they reduced the power output to save money or prolong valve life, or
> is there another explanation?

I think I'll try tuning in when I go out in the car later tonight, and
see whether it seems any weaker than it used to be.

[Richard Evans]

Also we have discussed this before, and if they wanted to keep LW, then
in the long run it would be cheaper to build a new solid state
transmitter, which would be a lot more power efficient, and wouldn't
have any valves to burn out. So it does seem like the story of the lack
of valves may well be a convenient excuse to do what they want to do anyway.

[Richard Evans]

On 11/01/2013 19:33, Richard Evans wrote:

>
> I think I'll try tuning in when I go out in the car later tonight, and
> see whether it seems any weaker than it used to be.
>

Well I had a listen for about 15 minutes last night.
Around here (In Surrey) the signal is strong enough for reasonable
reception, with some slight local fading as I drive around. There didn't
seem to be any more fading than usual last night, so basically the
signal seemed to be about the same as normal.

[J G Miller]

On Saturday, January 12th, 2013, at 10:22:20h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

> Around here (In Surrey) the signal is strong enough for reasonable
> reception

Of course in your area, for optimum reception of the BBC Radio 4 AM
service, you would be tuned to 720 kHz from Crystal Palace.

[Mark Carver]

Probably not, 198kHz is clearer, and much clearer at night, anywhere outside
the M25 (even in Surrey/Kent).

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

www.paras.org.uk

[J G Miller]

On Saturday, January 12th, 2013, at 18:07:11h +0000, Mark Carver explained:

> J G Miller wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 12th, 2013, at 10:22:20h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:
>>
>>> Around here (In Surrey) the signal is strong enough for reasonable
>>> reception
>>
>> Of course in your area, for optimum reception of the BBC Radio 4 AM
>> service, you would be tuned to 720 kHz from Crystal Palace.
>
> Probably not, 198kHz is clearer, and much clearer at night, anywhere outside
> the M25 (even in Surrey/Kent).

Well yes, but I was under the impression that Richard was within the M25
orbital autoroute and that his home location was quite close to Crystal Palace.

And there is always the danger of interference from furriner radio stations
Algier Chaîne 1 or Radio Mayak on 198 kHz.

But then there is always the BBC Radio 4 AM service on DAB ;+}

[Richard Evans]

On 12/01/2013 18:18, J G Miller wrote:

>
> Well yes, but I was under the impression that Richard was within the M25
> orbital autoroute and that his home location was quite close to Crystal Palace.

Yes I'm just about within the M25, and you would think that 720 Khz
would be a better choice, but when I've tried it, it actually isn't as
good as LW.

During the daytime 198Khz is stronger than 720Khz. Not by a huge margin,
but enough to notice the difference.

At nighttime MW is weak enough to get a noticeable amount of continental
interference, which doesn't seem to happen much on LW, so LW is quite a
bit better.

This does make me wonder, what's the point of the MW signal.

Could the MW aerial perhaps be positioned somehow to favor central
London? Which would mean I'm not in the best place to receive it.

Or perhaps MW is just for the benefit of people with radios that have MW
but don't have LW. Perhaps with the high population density in London,
this may be a factor worth considering.

>
> And there is always the danger of interference from furriner radio stations
> Algier Chaîne 1 or Radio Mayak on 198 kHz.

I've never noticed any such interference problems on 198 Khz. Although
the signal here is not exactly booming in, it is more than adequate, and
I would think too strong to suffer significant interference form any
weak distant signals.

>
> But then there is always the BBC Radio 4 AM service on DAB ;+}

Yes, but I'm not going to go to the trouble of getting DAB, just for a
few stations I rarely listen to, which already sound adequate on LW and
MW. It would be quite nice to still be able to get the World Service,
but not enough to justify getting DAB. Also if I'm going to make any
change, it will be to get internet radio, which I have considered, but I
don't think the mobile internet market has quite got to the point where
I want to start using it.

Besides, this is all irrelevant to the main point, which is whether or
not the power has been turned down on 198 Khz, and from the reception
around here, I'd say probably not.

Richard E.

[Scott]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:19:12 +0000, Richard Evans
<rp.evan...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>On 12/01/2013 18:18, J G Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> Well yes, but I was under the impression that Richard was within the M25
>> orbital autoroute and that his home location was quite close to Crystal Palace.
>
>Yes I'm just about within the M25, and you would think that 720 Khz
>would be a better choice, but when I've tried it, it actually isn't as
>good as LW.
>
>During the daytime 198Khz is stronger than 720Khz. Not by a huge margin,
>but enough to notice the difference.
>
>At nighttime MW is weak enough to get a noticeable amount of continental
>interference, which doesn't seem to happen much on LW, so LW is quite a
>bit better.
>
>This does make me wonder, what's the point of the MW signal.
>
>Could the MW aerial perhaps be positioned somehow to favor central
>London? Which would mean I'm not in the best place to receive it.

I thought it came from Crystal Palace.

http://www.thebigtower.com/live/CrystalPalace/Index.htm
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/crystalpalace/crystal-palace-pb3.php

[Mark Carver]

Scott wrote:

>> Could the MW aerial perhaps be positioned somehow to favor central
>> London? Which would mean I'm not in the best place to receive it.
>
> I thought it came from Crystal Palace.
>
> http://www.thebigtower.com/live/CrystalPalace/Index.htm
> http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/crystalpalace/crystal-palace-pb3.php

Indeed it does, and the sloping wire aerial is so arranged such
that the mast acts as a reflector, to direct most of the signal
northwards towards Central London.

The transmitter used to be at Lot's Road in Chelsa, with the aerial strung
between the chimneys of London Transpost's power station.

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/lots-road.php

[Richard Evans]

On 13/01/2013 15:09, Mark Carver wrote:

>
> Indeed it does, and the sloping wire aerial is so arranged such
> that the mast acts as a reflector, to direct most of the signal
> northwards towards Central London.

That would explain it.

I'm actually a significant distance to the South of Crystal Palace, but
up quite high. So the main uhf and vhf signals do tend to come in pretty
strong, especially uhf, although it is noticeable that directional
signals, not aimed in this direction can be a bit weak. Also if I
understand MW correctly, then being up high wouldn't be much help.

Richard E.

[hwh]

Direction signals, on the other hand, tend to be less directional on AM
than on higher frequency bands.

A wire strung from a tower and screened only by its supporting tower is
not known for its sharp directional capabilities.

gr, hwh

[Ian]

"Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eimre8lpjf8cfuvuh...@4ax.com...

> Just returned from Denmark. Last time I was there I was able to
> receive Radio 4 on long-wave albeit the reception was not great (only
> after dark). However, this time there was no Radio 4 whatsoever. Have
> they reduced the power output to save money or prolong valve life, or
> is there another explanation?

Hello Scott.

I believe that the power has been turned down to extend the life of the
valves. Haven't heard if the are any plans to replace the valve transmitter
with a solid-state one in order to keep 198kHz operating. I did a search
last year and found three or four manufacturers that offered LW
transmitters. Prices were lower than the BBC's top pay for presenters.

My own guess is that the BBC now have so many platforms (Freeview, DAB,
VHF/FM, Internet ...) that they may welcome the opportunity to close one
down.
I wonder if the government would wish to keep Droitwich operating given that
this one transmitter can cover much of the UK population. Try doing that
with VHF/FM or DAB.

Regards, Ian.

[J G Miller]

On Thursday, February 21st, 2013, at 13:32:22h +0000, Ian declared:

> I believe that the power has been turned down to extend the life of the
> valves.

You believe that, but on what demonstrable basis is your belief founded?

> I wonder if the government would wish to keep Droitwich operating given that
> this one transmitter can cover much of the UK population.

So only one transmitter site that the terrorists need to attack
to render the government wishes inoperative.

[Hamster]

>> I wonder if the government would wish to keep Droitwich operating given
>> that this one transmitter can cover much of the UK population.

When I worked in the electricity industry, 198kHz was used to operate the
radio tele-switches used for switching variable-time tariff heating loads
on (different to Economy 7 night rate) to suit the weather conditions so
it would appear to be needed for that still? The teleswitches would
default to a fixed time regime if the signal disappeared but that would
negate the whole idea of the tariff.

No idea if it is still used though as I have beeb retired for several
years now!

Rod

[Richard Evans]

On 22/02/2013 21:01, Hamster wrote:

>
> When I worked in the electricity industry, 198kHz was used to operate the
> radio tele-switches used for switching variable-time tariff heating loads
> on (different to Economy 7 night rate) to suit the weather conditions so
> it would appear to be needed for that still? The teleswitches would
> default to a fixed time regime if the signal disappeared but that would
> negate the whole idea of the tariff.
>
> No idea if it is still used though as I have beeb retired for several
> years now!

I have Economy 7, and I'm pretty sure it's still controlled by the R4 LW
signal. I suppose if they ever actually shot the signal down, then they
will have to change all the meters to use some other timing signal.
Perhaps in many areas they could use a sub carrier on one of the local
FM stations.

Richard E.

[Hamster]

"Richard Evans" <rp.evan...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kgbpq8$hgc$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> I have Economy 7, and I'm pretty sure it's still controlled by the R4 LW
> signal. I suppose if they ever actually shot the signal down, then they
> will have to change all the meters to use some other timing signal.
> Perhaps in many areas they could use a sub carrier on one of the local FM
> stations.

One of the benefits of using the LW signal was that it could be received
in basement flats and other 'difficult' locations. The cost of changing
all the teleswitches would be huge!! But not as much as changing everyone's
meters to 'smart' meters for no *good* reason... but that's another topic!

Rod

[spud-u-d...@potato.field]

How did it work with the long wave signal? Is there some digital code
embedded in it or some analogue tone or what?

Spud

[Richard Evans]

On 26/02/2013 09:39, spud-u-d...@potato.field wrote:

>
> How did it work with the long wave signal? Is there some digital code
> embedded in it or some analogue tone or what?
>
> Spud
>
>

It uses phase modulation system, and the bit rate is very low.
Also there are 2 phase changes for each data bit, in opposite
directions, so that the average frequency is the same, as the signal is
also used as a frequency standard.

The details are on the web somewhere, you can probably find them with a
bit of searching.

Richard E.

[Hamster]

<spud-u-d...@potato.field> wrote in message
news:kghvtd$o2e$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> How did it work with the long wave signal? Is there some digital code
> embedded in it or some analogue tone or what?

Phase shifting of the carrier I believe to allow binary data to be sent at
a very low bitrate. I wasn't involved with the actual communications side
of it but we put in the forecast temperatures into the system which
controlled it all and it would then programme an overnight 'on' time into
our [Scottish] teleswitches. Used by local authority housing to avoid
high-rise flat damp problems so the heaters only got enough charge to keep
the buildings warm enough depending on the forecast temperature. We could
also programme 'White Meter' teleswitches (equivalent to Economy 7 in
England) in groups so they didn't ALL come on at the same time! Google
'radio teleswitch' for more exciting detail!

Rod

[Paul Webster]

This PDF has some more info - including recommendations for what to do when BBC turns the service off.
http://www.elexon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/SVG130_12.pdf

and this has lots of background (mainly the consumer end)
http://alancordwell.co.uk/radio/teleswitch1.html



Paul Webster

[spud-u-d...@potato.field]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:54:27 -0000
"Hamster" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
><spud-u-d...@potato.field> wrote in message
>news:kghvtd$o2e$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> How did it work with the long wave signal? Is there some digital code
>> embedded in it or some analogue tone or what?
>
>Phase shifting of the carrier I believe to allow binary data to be sent at
>a very low bitrate. I wasn't involved with the actual communications side

I don't quite get the difference between phase shift and FM. Look at the online
info about it it seems to me the phase shift is a very low rate FM system -
change the frequency briefly to change the phase then go back to centre
ferquency - rinse and repeat. How is that different from FM?

Spud

[Richard Evans]

On 05/03/2013 10:16, spud-u-d...@potato.field wrote:

>
> I don't quite get the difference between phase shift and FM. Look at the online
> info about it it seems to me the phase shift is a very low rate FM system -
> change the frequency briefly to change the phase then go back to centre
> ferquency - rinse and repeat. How is that different from FM?

This may be difficult to explain, but I'll give it a go.

With FM the actual frequency of the signal carries the information.
With phase modulation it is the timing of the waves that carries the
information. Now in order to change the phase, it is necessary to have
temporary changes in frequency, but it is still the changes in timing
that actually carry the information.

Richard E.

[spud-u-d...@potato.field]

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 15:26:13 +0000
Richard Evans <rp.evan...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>With FM the actual frequency of the signal carries the information.
>With phase modulation it is the timing of the waves that carries the
>information. Now in order to change the phase, it is necessary to have
>temporary changes in frequency, but it is still the changes in timing
>that actually carry the information.

Ok , I sort of understand that.

--
Spud

[Scott]

I thought the two sidebands were separated slightly in time. Is that
completely wrong?

[Richard Evans]

On 05/03/2013 18:54, Scott wrote:

>>
>> This may be difficult to explain, but I'll give it a go.
>>
>> With FM the actual frequency of the signal carries the information.
>> With phase modulation it is the timing of the waves that carries the
>> information. Now in order to change the phase, it is necessary to have
>> temporary changes in frequency, but it is still the changes in timing
>> that actually carry the information.
>>
> I thought the two sidebands were separated slightly in time. Is that
> completely wrong?
>

I'm not sure about that.

The way I understand phase modulation, a change in phase is when the
waves arrive slightly earlier or slightly later than average. Hence
there are phase shifts, and it is that phase shifts that carries the
information. Normally you would have some type of device to produce an
average of the phase of the signal. The old method was to use a phase
lock loop with a low pass filter, to average it all out. Then you
compare the actual phase to the average, to get the information. I
expect it is probably done digitally these days,

Now in order to make the waves arrive earlier or later, they obviously
need to arrive at a different rate for some brief period of time, hence
there have to be a temporary changes in the frequency. Changes in
frequency will produce side bands, which I assume would be a bit like FM
sidebands, because there are changes in frequency.

The part I don't really understand is why phase shift is used instead of
FM. Presumably it must have advantages over FM, but I've never actually
tried to find out why.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 22/02/2013 21:01, Hamster wrote:

>

> When I worked in the electricity industry, 198kHz was used to operate the
> radio tele-switches used for switching variable-time tariff heating loads
> on (different to Economy 7 night rate) to suit the weather conditions so
> it would appear to be needed for that still? The teleswitches would
> default to a fixed time regime if the signal disappeared but that would
> negate the whole idea of the tariff.

I've been doing a fair bit of web searching, and came across a a few
possible alternatives when R4 LW shuts down.

One possible solution might be to use a different LW transmission. Since
the teleswitch system was developed on R4 LW, similar systems have
started being used in Europe for a number of applications. Many of the
European LW transmissions are receivable across many parts of the UK. So
perhaps the electricity companies could get contracts with one or more
of the European broadcasters to add their messages into the European
teleswitch systems.

Another possibility might be to use the mobile phone networks, although
this might not be available everywhere. The amount of data required is
small, so it could easily use GPRS (I think that's what it's called) in
areas where it is available. Or perhaps when/if 4G becomes available on
old TV spectrum, it should cover about 98% of the population, so perhaps
that could be used.

Then there are powerline data systems. Smart meters could communicate
via the local power lines themselves, to a communication hub at the
local sub stations, which could then relay messages via some other means.


I also had a few idea of my own.

I was wondering about MW transmissions. We have a number of national MW
networks, that cover most of the country, and can be picked up in areas
where other transmissions are difficult, such as in remote valleys. If
teleswitch data can be transmitted on LW than I wonder if it could also
be transmitted on MW. Obviously it would need to be installed in more
sites, because MW requires more sites to cover the country. The only
problem I see is whether signals might get disrupted by delayed
reflections via the ionosphere. Perhaps a possible solution to this
might be to transmit commands, and synchronize clocks, during the
daytime, when there is no skip on MW. Then teleswitches could carry out
the commands at the appropriate times thay have been told to.

I also think the standard time signal on 60Khz might be of some use, but
only as an accurate way of keeping time. Teleswitches could be pre
programmed to switch on at particular times, and could then use the
60Khz signal to ensure their clocks are correct. This might not work so
well in some parts of the country, such where I am in the South East, as
I have found the signal indoors can be a bit temperamental, having come
all the way from Cumbria. However here in the South East there would be
more likely to be other alternatives, such as foreign LW broadcasts.

One final idea. Supposing once they have to shut down the 500Kw
transmission, they replace it with a lower power transmission, but
supplying only data. Perhaps with data only they could make the
transmission more robust, hence not needing so much power. However there
might be an issue with that idea, as without the audio service, it might
be harder to justify the cost of maintaining the rest of the
transmission equipment. In particular, I would think the aerial system
must be expensive to maintain.


In the end I would think it may be a matter of a number of different
solutions depending upon what is available in different parts of the
country.

Richard E.

[hwh]

On 3/7/13 9:30 PM, Richard Evans wrote:
> In the end I would think it may be a matter of a number of different
> solutions depending upon what is available in different parts of the
> country.

How about DAB? The required bitrates are quite low aren't they? With
high error protection (PL1) reception should not be a problem.

gr, hwh

[Scott]

I thought many of the long wave services across Europe were closing
down. I also thought the UK government wanted to swich off analogue
radio here in the UK. And the BBC is starting to turn off AM local
radio. I suspect the future lies away from the broadcast spectrum.

Could they feed the signal via the electricity network, like powerline
adapters?

[J G Miller]

On Thursday, March 7th, 2013, at 20:41:58h +0000, Scott pondered:

> I suspect the future lies away from the broadcast spectrum.

From <http://www.smartmeters.COM/faqs/1246-how-smart-meters-work.html>

QUOTE

How Smart Meters Work?

Sunday, 10 October 2010 20:02

Smart meters have a digital display and are similar in size to regular meters.

Various types and models of smart meters are available, but all of them have
the same basic functionality.

Using a communications network, the *internal antenna* present in smart meters
sends electricity consumption data to the utility.

An *external antenna* may be required in some cases for improving signals over
longer distances and ensuring reliable data transmission.

This antenna can be attached on or near the meter box.

UNQUOTE


And the tinfoil hat brigade has already become well established on the World Wide Web


From <http://stopsmartmeters.ORG/why-stop-smart-meters/>

QUOTE

Thousands of people have complained of tinnitus, headaches,
nausea, sleeplessness, heart arrhythmia, and other symptoms
after a ‘smart’ meter was installed.

Wireless technology is a public health hazard.

UNQUOTE


From <http://www.refusesmartmeters.COM/>

QUOTE

SAY NO to Health Effects from Radiation

How to file a medical waiver

Find an AAEM physician

Death By Smart Meter

UNQUOTE


You know it is strange that people never complain about
suffering from the radiation is used to transmit radio
and TV stations, or that used by their WiFi router.

[J G Miller]

On Thursday, March 7th, 2013, at 21:01:39h +0000, J G Miller babbled:

> You know it is strange that people never complain about
> suffering from the radiation is used to transmit radio
> and TV stations, or that used by their WiFi router.

Oops failed to notice that

<http://stopsmartmeters.ORG/>

is complaining about WiFi as well

QUOTE

There is also emerging evidence that wireless, non-ionizing
radiation (from cell phones, wifi, and ‘smart’ meters) harms
wildlife and damages trees.

UNQUOTE

[Richard Evans]

I thought of that. However indoor DAB coverage is poor in many areas
even in the South East. If they were going to consider vhf, then I would
be more inclined to suggest a sub carrier on one of the national FM
networks.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 07/03/2013 20:41, Scott wrote:

>>
> I thought many of the long wave services across Europe were closing
> down.

You could be right, I hadn't thought of that. I haven't heard about any
other countries shutting down their LW transmissions, but then that
doesn't mean they aren't going to.

> I also thought the UK government wanted to swich off analogue
> radio here in the UK. And the BBC is starting to turn off AM local
> radio. I suspect the future lies away from the broadcast spectrum.

They wanted to switch of the main FM stations, and put them on DAB. I'm
not sure whether they want to also switch off all MW transmissions.

>
> Could they feed the signal via the electricity network, like powerline
> adapters?

That was one of the ideas I mentioned.
Data could be transmitted via the power lines as far as the local sub
station. From there they would need some other form of communications.
Speaking of which I have noticed aerial installed in all the local sub
stations around here. From the size of them I'd say they are for vhf. I
can't find anything about this on the web, but I assume it is for
monitoring power supplies. Now if this is part of a simple data
communication system, could it not also distribute teleswitch commands
to the sub stations, to then be passed on to domestic teleswitches via
power line communication.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 07/03/2013 21:01, J G Miller wrote:

>
>
> And the tinfoil hat brigade has already become well established on the World Wide Web

Whether or not there are any actual heath risks (which I doubt), I think
people will still claim that radio transmissions are affecting their
health. In may cases it may well be the worry about health risks that is
making them ill.

Unfortunately this is an issue that is not likely to go away any time
soon. There are studies to try and prove once and for all whether there
are any health risks, but these need to be very long term studies,
because the health risks people are worried about (mostly cancer I
assume) can take many decades to develop. Therefore we can't expect any
firm conclusions for a long time. Even if they do prove that there are
no health risks, people will probably still try to claim that there are.

Well I'm not going to say that radio transmissions are definitely 100%
safe, as that has not yet been 100% proven. However, to within reason,
ie. ruling out exposing people to stupidly high levels, I seriously
doubt that radio waves can do any harm.

Although I do have slight doubts about using mobile phones, simply
because it involves holding a transmitter right next to your head, but I
suspect that even that is probably safe.

I saw an experiment once, where they put a group of people in a hotel,
with a radio transmitter outside, that mimicked a mobile phone
transmitter. Then they lied to them, telling them the transmitter was
on, when it was actually off, and off when it was actually on. The
people reported feeling ill when they were told that it was on (but it
was actually off), and then reported feeling a lot better when told it
was off (but it was actually on). I think that is strong evidence of the
real source of the issue.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 07/03/2013 21:04, J G Miller wrote:

>
> Oops failed to notice that
>
> <http://stopsmartmeters.ORG/>
>
> is complaining about WiFi as well
>
> QUOTE
>
> There is also emerging evidence that wireless, non-ionizing
> radiation (from cell phones, wifi, and ‘smart’ meters) harms
> wildlife and damages trees.
>
> UNQUOTE
>

LOL :-o

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 01:51, Richard Evans wrote:

> Speaking of which I have noticed aerial installed in all the local sub
> stations around here. From the size of them I'd say they are for vhf.

If anyone is interested, I've just found some pictures I took of my
local sub station. (The fence is only about 6 feet high so I can quite
easily hold my camera up to peer over it). This was just after they did
a lot of work installing new supply cables.

I've uploaded this picture because, if you zoom in, you can read what is
says on the silvery box to the right. This is where the aerial was later
installed. It says
"REMOVE RTU FROM RMU BEFORE ENERGISATION
FIX ON STAND OR WALL BRACKET"
This means nothing to me.
This picture was taken in September 2010
http://www.sendspace.com/file/u1ohe4

Then this picture was taken in October 2010, and you can clearly see
that an aerial has been installed. It is still there today.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/pw0tcy
(I think they may have moved some of the equipment in this picture)
Sorry I seem to have cut off the top of the aerial, but it is a bit
difficult to aim a camera properly when holding it above your head.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 03:29, Richard Evans wrote:

> "REMOVE RTU FROM RMU BEFORE ENERGISATION
> FIX ON STAND OR WALL BRACKET"

Just found this document, which looks interesting, but it's going to
take some time to read.
http://ieeetmc.net/r9/el_salvador/concapan/descargas/memoria_secciones/Viernes_11/tecapa/P92.pdf

Apparently RTU stands for Remote Terminal Unit, and RMU stands for Ring
Main Unit.

I haven't read much of the document yet, but it seems clear that the RTU
is part of an intelligent management system, which does include a
communication system. Before this system was introduced, engineers had
to find faults by driving to all the local sub stations, to see which
contact breakers were open, and so determine where the fault was. With
this management system, one engineer can immediately see which contact
breakers are open, and so find the fault fare more quickly.

It seems that a local ring of power cables supplies power to the local
substations. So I assume the RMU must be a device connecting the sub
station to this local ring. (Or disconnecting it if the substation has a
fault).

Richard E.

[J G Miller]

On Friday, 08 Mar 2013 02:09:48 +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

> In may cases it may well be the worry about health risks that is
> making them ill.

Excellent point! Of course if they did not have something to worry
about, they would become ill worrying about a lack of a worrt.

> There are studies to try and prove once and for all whether there
> are any health risks, but these need to be very long term studies,
> because the health risks people are worried about (mostly cancer I
> assume) can take many decades to develop.

The most important factor is the inverse-square law for non-ionizing
radiation, is it not?

Low power transmitters are not going to do much damage unless one
spends long hours with a low power transmitter right up next to
one's head.

Do not forget that even in the 1980s the tinfoil hat brigade
extremists were claiming that electrical currents were causing
people to be ill and that one should not have bedside electric
clocks because the person in the field would be under the
influence of the magnetic field from the current for 8 hours.

And the "solution" to being exposed to all of these magnetic
fields is of course to take a cure-all magnetic pill.

<http://www.magneticpill.COM/how-it-works>

(If you believe that, then I have some swampland in Florida for sale
just for you!)


Meanwhile smoking (including second hand smoke), high fat diets,
lack of exercise, obesity, and automobile accidents are doing a
much more efficient job at reducing the excess population.

From <http://www.cdc.GOV/motorvehiclesafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html>

QUOTE

Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for
U.S. teens. In 2010, *seven* teens ages 16 to 19 died
every day from motor vehicle injuries.

UNQUOTE

And now specifically in injury related deaths overall in the US,
the leading cause of the injuries is not from a motor vehicle accident,
but self inflicted ones.

<http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/09/26/suicide-no-1-cause-injury-related-death-in-us/>

QUOTE

Suicide the No. 1 cause of injury-related death in U.S.

Published September 26, 2012

Suicide has surpassed car accidents as the No. 1 cause of
injury-related death in the United States, according to
new research.

UNQUOTE

> people will probably still try to claim that there are.

People only believe what they want to believe, and they do not
let facts get in the way of that belief.

> Well I'm not going to say that radio transmissions are definitely 100%
> safe, as that has not yet been 100% proven.

If you stand in front of a high power microwave transmitter you will
definitely discover that being exposed in this way is 100% unsafe.

Radio transmissions are unsafe depending on the frequency, power,
and time of exposure.

With sufficient distance though from the source, there is no
proven cause for concern.

But have you ever noticed that all the trees have died around
Crystal Palace or Croydon in the last 40 years or so, or that
all the people in the area have been dying from cancer?

And remember that the highest death rate for worker, far above
any other, is in the fishing industry.

[J G Miller]

On Friday, March 8th, 2013, at 01:51:21h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

> I haven't heard about any other countries shutting down their
> LW transmissions, but then that doesn't mean they aren't going to.

The fact is that there are very few countries which do have
LF (general purpose broadcast) radio stations.

These only exist in some countries in Europe, Middle East,
and North Africa.

The table on Wonkypedia shews quite a number have been closed down
over the last few years.

<http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/Longwave>

[J G Miller]

On Friday, March 8th, 2013, at 03:29:35h +0000, Richard Evans confessed:

> The fence is only about 6 feet high so I can quite
> easily hold my camera up to peer over it).

It is a small wonder that you have not been arrested as a
suspected terrorist in view of such behavior.

Taking such photographs is regarded as being a serious
matter by the Metropolitan Police.

"Police officers continue to have the power to stop and
search anyone who they reasonably suspect to be a
terrorist under Section 43 of the Terrorism Act."

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 13:12, J G Miller wrote:

>
>> Well I'm not going to say that radio transmissions are definitely 100%
>> safe, as that has not yet been 100% proven.
>
> If you stand in front of a high power microwave transmitter you will
> definitely discover that being exposed in this way is 100% unsafe.

Well just to remind you of the rest of my paragraph

"However, to within reason, ie. ruling out exposing people to stupidly
high levels, I seriously doubt that radio waves can do any harm."

I think that standing in front of a high power microwave transmitter may
well qualify as being exposed to stupidly high levels.

Although I did once here a story that sailors used to stand in front of
the radar, before having sex, as they were convinced that it was a
reliable form of contraception.

>
> Radio transmissions are unsafe depending on the frequency, power,
> and time of exposure.
>
> With sufficient distance though from the source, there is no
> proven cause for concern.
>
> But have you ever noticed that all the trees have died around
> Crystal Palace or Croydon in the last 40 years or so, or that
> all the people in the area have been dying from cancer?

Well you also have to bear in mind, that the highest signal levels from
A main TV transmitter, at ground level, may actually be a few miles away
from the tower. As when you are too close to it, most of the power
passes by well above your head.

Where I am, about 9 miles from Crystal Palace, I can pick up Freeview,
using my finger as an aerial, and that is indoors. Outside I might be
able to work with no aerial at all. I wouldn't be surprised if signal
levels, on the ground close to the tower, aren't much higher than the
signal levels I get here.

>
> And remember that the highest death rate for worker, far above
> any other, is in the fishing industry.

They probably have to use their mobile phones a lot, to call ashore ;-)

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

The 1st of those pictures was taken when I was curious about all the
cables they were installing, and where they were all going, and I
actually took a lot of pictures, not just of the sub station, but also
of the roadworks out in the streets. And actually the reason why I took
pictures of the sub station was that I was hoping to be able to see
where exactly the new cables were actually going.

I wasn't going to actually climb over the fence, to take a look, as that
would have been stupid, dangerous and illegal. So I had to make do with
holding up my camera, and then see what I could see on the pictures.

The second picture was taken when I suddenly noticed the aerial sticking
up above the fence, and wondered what it was for.

I might also mention that that particular sub station is located within
the grounds of the flats where I live. So perhaps that gives me at least
some reason to be curious.

Also I presume the work they did was to make our power supply here more
reliable, which gives me another reason to be interested. And the supply
does seem to have improved. We used to get power cuts around about once
a year on average, but so far there haven't been any since they did this
work in 2010.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 13:15, J G Miller wrote:
> On Friday, March 8th, 2013, at 01:51:21h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:
>
>> I haven't heard about any other countries shutting down their
>> LW transmissions, but then that doesn't mean they aren't going to.
>
> The fact is that there are very few countries which do have
> LF (general purpose broadcast) radio stations.
>
> These only exist in some countries in Europe, Middle East,
> and North Africa.

Yes I read that very recently, while doing various web searches.
Although last time I tried searching through the LW band, there were a
few strong signals, so I assumed that LW was still being used in Europe.

>
> The table on Wonkypedia shews quite a number have been closed down
> over the last few years.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/Longwave>
>

I was looking at that recently.
I did notice some had closed down, but there are still quite a lot in
that list that are still transmitting, although perhaps not so many high
powered ones.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 13:15, J G Miller wrote:

>

> The table on Wonkypedia shews quite a number have been closed down
> over the last few years.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/Longwave>
>

I just noticed that I high power LW TX in Lybia has closed down.
I wonder if it got destroyed during the war.

[tony sayer]

In article <khbhb2$7el$2...@speranza.aioe.org>, Richard Evans <rp.evans.nospam@tiscali.
co.uk> scribeth thus

Now look here Mr Evans this is a very serious subject, and it's not to be taken
lightly or made fun of.

If you suffered from these afflictions then you'd be thankful for these products for
relief;!!....


http://www.sheerprevention.co.uk/www.sheerprevention.co.uk/info.php?p=7&pno=0
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <khbg6o$4uv$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Richard Evans <rp.evans.nos
p...@tiscali.co.uk> scribeth thus

I expect that they'd just use GSM, that way its two way comms if
required..

I believe someone was setting up a meter reading system around 180 MHz
but don't know if anything came of it...
--
Tony Sayer

[J G Miller]

On Friday, March 8th, 2013, at 19:54:30h +0000, Tony Sayer urged:

> http://www.sheerprevention.co.uk/www.sheerprevention.co.uk/info.php?p=7&pno=0

Thank you for pointing out that page.

There is an extremely helpful piece of advice that every responsible person
(as opposed to nanny state welfare dependent always looking for a free handout
excuse for a human being) should always put into practice.


"Every individual has to decide for her/himself what needs to be done."


Seems like they sell some top quality "tin foil" on that web site.

Only GBP 27.50 for a piece measuring a mere 4.0 cm x 2.5 cm

And that is not all, one can save £12.00 by ordering a Green 8 Gold Double Pack!!!

(Shipping to UKofGB&NI is a mere £4.25, so the packaging must be extremely
sturdy and well built.)


After all Bio Protective Systems is the winner of the 2012 Platinum Award
of best household EMF protection from Janey Lee Grace of

<http://www.imperfectlynatural.com/>

See all her videos at <http://www.youtube.COM/user/sidimp>,
and of course thanks to the *BBC* can since 1999, be heard regularly
on BBC Radio 2 "Steve Wright in the Afternoon".

There is a clear endorsement of Bio Protective Systems by *BBC Radio 2*
Presenter Janey Lee Grace on her web site page at

<http://www.imperfectlynatural.COM/Janey_Loves/bio_protection.htm>

So why would anybody not trust an endorsement from a long standing
BBC radio personality?


I guess Bacofoil or Reynolds Alumninum foil just ain't good enough
to stop the dangerous rays, but one should always read the small print


QUOTE

The information on this site is not intended to act as a
substitute for medical advice provided by a qualified
health care provider, nor is any information on this
site intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

UNQUOTE


The administrative contact and owner of bioprotectivesystems.COM

(sheerprevention.co.UK is just a clone web site of
http://www.bioprotectivesystems.com/)

is Mrs Bindi Desai, specialist in holistic health, in the English city of Leicester.

<http://uk.linkedin.COM/pub/bindi-desai/17/b40/9b4>

[J G Miller]

On Saturday, March 9th, 2013, at 03:18:46h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

> Well you also have to bear in mind, that the highest signal levels from
> A main TV transmitter, at ground level, may actually be a few miles away
> from the tower. As when you are too close to it, most of the power
> passes by well above your head.

Indeed so, but what about where the TV transmitter or cellphone masts are
located on the top of appartment blocks, are all the people in those appartment
blocks or nearby ones suddenly feeling ill?

Of course in most of these situations, the people living in
them are LSEC so they will have lots of other ailments and
diseases to worry about (malnutrition, obesity, personal hygiene,
social diseases, recreational drug abuse etc etc).

> They probably have to use their mobile phones a lot, to call ashore ;-)

Hmm, they must be using satphones rather than cellphones because I
do not think there are too many cellphone masts in the middle of
Dogger Bank.

Were you aware of all the submerged villages there?

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 19:54, tony sayer wrote:

>
>
> Now look here Mr Evans this is a very serious subject, and it's not to be taken
> lightly or made fun of.
>
> If you suffered from these afflictions then you'd be thankful for these products for
> relief;!!....
>
>
> http://www.sheerprevention.co.uk/www.sheerprevention.co.uk/info.php?p=7&pno=0
>

Could radio waves somehow be affecting my hearing, and making DAB sound
like sh*t, or does DAB really sound like that?

[Richard Evans]

On 09/03/2013 16:57, J G Miller wrote:
> On Saturday, March 9th, 2013, at 03:18:46h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:
>
>> Well you also have to bear in mind, that the highest signal levels from
>> A main TV transmitter, at ground level, may actually be a few miles away
>> from the tower. As when you are too close to it, most of the power
>> passes by well above your head.
>
> Indeed so, but what about where the TV transmitter or cellphone masts are
> located on the top of appartment blocks, are all the people in those appartment
> blocks or nearby ones suddenly feeling ill?

I just remembered that there is a cellphone mast on on top of the
building where I work. Perhaps that explains why I keep leaving work
feeling tired. lol

>
>> They probably have to use their mobile phones a lot, to call ashore ;-)
>
> Hmm, they must be using satphones rather than cellphones because I
> do not think there are too many cellphone masts in the middle of
> Dogger Bank.

That may depend upon how far out they are.
I would think GSM 900 would reach quite a few miles out over open
water,so they could call home whenever they are within range, and
chances are the cell phone would be transmitting at quite high power.

>
> Were you aware of all the submerged villages there?

Hummm.... Not sure. I vaguely remember hearing stories of submerged
villages, but I don't remember any of them being around the UK.

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 19:57, tony sayer wrote:

>
> I expect that they'd just use GSM, that way its two way comms if
> required..
>
> I believe someone was setting up a meter reading system around 180 MHz
> but don't know if anything came of it...
>

That does seem like the most likely option, but it would mean that a
small percentage of people would not be able to use smart meters,
because they are in areas not covered by GSM.

And of course there will be more complaints about the signals making
people ill.

[Richard Evans]

On 09/03/2013 20:04, Richard Evans wrote:

>>
> That does seem like the most likely option, but it would mean that a
> small percentage of people would not be able to use smart meters,
> because they are in areas not covered by GSM.
>
> And of course there will be more complaints about the signals making
> people ill.

Perhaps in remote areas they could use a satellite dish. The electric
suppliers could perhaps lease a small data channel on some existing
satellite.

[J G Miller]

On Saturday, March 9th, 2013, at 19:54:09h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

> Could radio waves somehow be affecting my hearing

You have probably been listening for too long to your Mastodon, Napalm Death,
Slayer, Deathspell Omega albums with the volume on your earbuds cranked
up to maximum volume resulting in an irreversible deteroriation in
your hearing.


<http://www.time.COM/time/health/article/0,8599,1827159,00.html>

If you're using the earbuds that come with an iPod and you turn
the volume up to about 90% of maximum and you listen a total of
two hours a day, five days a week, our best estimates are that
the people who have more sensitive ears will develop a rather
significant degree of hearing loss — on the order of 40 decibels (dB).

Brian Fligor, director of diagnostic audiology at Children's Hospital Boston


<http://www.bloomberg.COM/news/2010-08-17/one-in-five-u-s-adolescents-has-hearing-loss-researchers-find.html>

Listening to loud sounds through earbuds -- the tiny electronic
speakers that fit into ears, for use with personal music players --
is probably the main reason that more adolescents are losing some
of their hearing, said William Slattery, director of clinical
studies at the House Ear Institute, a Los Angeles medical practice,
who wasn’t involved in today’s study.

“Once you have hearing loss, there’s a greater risk of that hearing
loss progressing as you get older,”

Slattery, a clinical professor in the Department of Otolaryngology at
the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, said today in
a telephone interview.

“Here is a major study that demonstrates that teenagers are having
hearing loss in a significant percent of children. It can happen and it does happen.”

Teens and parents need to be told that hearing loss from noise that occurs
early in life *isn’t reversible*, he said.

[hwh]

On 3/9/13 9:01 PM, Richard Evans wrote:
>> Hmm, they must be using satphones rather than cellphones because I
>> do not think there are too many cellphone masts in the middle of
>> Dogger Bank.

Some operators put their equipment on North sea oil rigs, so you might
be surprised about coverage. They can also use tricks like changing the
timing of the GSM cells to get around the standard 35 km range limit.

gr, hwh

[J G Miller]

On Saturday, March 9th, 2013, at 20:01:48h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

> I just remembered that there is a cellphone mast on on top of the
> building where I work.

Yes you are being fried every day while you work.

> That may depend upon how far out they are.

My understanding was that the trawlers go out in the middle
of the North Sea because that was where the fish where, rather
than just off the coast. (But I could be mishtaken.)

Remember for cod fishing many boats used to go almost all
the way to Iceland because that is where the best cod
was to be found, and there are no cellphone services covering
that far out in the Northern Atlantic Ocean.

> Hummm.... Not sure. I vaguely remember hearing stories of submerged
> villages, but I don't remember any of them being around the UK.

Well the villages were in Doggerland (hence the name Dogger Bank
for the plateau that is still there).

<http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/Doggerland>

<http://sci.tech-archive.NET/Archive/sci.archaeology/2008-07/msg00136.html>

<http://www.bbc.co.UK/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18687504>

"It was believed to have been home to tens of thousands of
people before it disappeared underwater."


Tens of thousands of people means that they must have been living in
villages at the very least.

A rather informative article and photographs of submerged remains at

<http://www.dailymail.co.UK/sciencetech/article-2167731/Britains-Atlantis-North-sea--huge-undersea-kingdom-swamped-tsunami-5-500-years-ago.html>

No signs of any cellphone masts though. ;)

[Richard Evans]

Changing the subject slightly, I was reading last night that they use a
clever trick with the modulation to save power.

If they simply used an average power output of 500Kw, with normal AM
modulation, then the peak power would be 1000Kw, so the transmitters
would need to be twice as powerful. But they don't actually do this, and
the transmitters actually never need to output more than 500Kw.

They do this by turning down the average transmitter power as the
modulation increases. If the modulation is 0%, then the average power
would be still be 500Kw, and the peak power would also be 500Kw (because
there is no modulation). If the modulation is 100%, then the average
power goes down to 250Kw, and so the peak output is still only 500Kw.

It is OK to do this because of 2 things.
1: Most receivers in use today have automatic gain control, which
cancels out any variations in signal strength. So when the transmitter
power is turned, the only effect on reception will be that there might
be an increase in background interference.
2: When the modulation is louder, it can mask any additional background
interference.

Hence the majority of listeners will not be able to hear any difference
when the power is reduced. For listeners with old receivers that don't
have automatic gain control, the changing signal levels will affect the
loudness of the sound. The result of this would be as if the sound has a
bit of dynamic range compression added to it. although this is not
ideal, it is not exactly a disaster, and it only affects a small
percentage of listeners, with older receivers. Chances are most of them
still wouldn't notice anyway.

I think the exact details are a little more complicated than this, but
this is the basic principle.

Richard E.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <khg4f6$7gp$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Richard Evans
<rp.evan...@tiscali.co.uk> writes

>




>I would think GSM 900 would reach quite a few miles out over open
>water,so they could call home whenever they are within range, and
>chances are the cell phone would be transmitting at quite high power.

In the days of 900MHz analogue (FM) phones, I once made a successful
call (direct to the UK) from an upper deck of a cross-channel ferry in
Calais harbour. What's that? At least 18 miles?

>
>
>

--
Ian

[tony sayer]

In article <khg40r$5sh$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Richard Evans <rp.evans.nos
p...@tiscali.co.uk> scribeth thus

It'd take more than a tinfoil beanie hat, B transposer or an electrosmog
corrector card to make the best digital radio system in the world sound
any better;!..

You know its the trooth;!....
--
Tony Sayer

[Richard Evans]

On 09/01/2013 21:05, Scott wrote:
> Just returned from Denmark. Last time I was there I was able to
> receive Radio 4 on long-wave albeit the reception was not great (only
> after dark). However, this time there was no Radio 4 whatsoever. Have
> they reduced the power output to save money or prolong valve life, or
> is there another explanation?

I have come across a possible explanation for this.
There is a lot of interesting information on this web page:
http://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminiscences/Droitwich/droitwich_calling.htm
I spent about 2 hours reading through it.

Under normal operation, they actually use 2 synchronized transmitters,
each one producing 250Kw. These 2 signals are combined using a clever
circuit, to produce the 500Kz that is fed to the aerial. If one
transmitter fails, or needs to be shut down for maintenance, they can
switch over to using just the other transmitter, and hence the
transmission will be at only 1/2 power. So it might be that there was
some maintenance going on when you were trying to tune in from Denmark.

I presume that each transmitter uses just one valve, making to total of
two valves required to operate at full power.

It also looks like the Guardian article was wrong about many things.

For a start, the transmitters have been upgraded a number of times, and
the current transmitters were installed around about 1985. So it would
seem that they aren't nearly as antiquated as the Guardian article
suggested.

Also concerning high voltages and arcing on the towers, supposedly when
a valve fails. I think the Guardian journalist may have got confused
with another occasional occurrence. When lightening strikes somewhere
near by, it can induce high voltages in the towers, and this can cause
arcing across the insulators. Once arcing starts, it ionizes the air,
making it more conductive, so the arcing can then continue, fed by the
normal power output of the transmitters. If allowed to continue, this
arcing could cause the insulators to overheat, and be destroyed. To
avoid this problem, they use ultra violet detectors to detect any
arcing, and if arcing is detected, then the transmission is paused
briefly to stop the arcing.

Taking an educated guess, I'd say that the failure of a valve probably
wouldn't cause arcing. All that happens, is that the transmission is
paused briefly while being switched over to the one transmitter that is
still OK, and then the transmission is resumed at 1/2 power, until the
faulty valve is replaced.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 09/03/2013 22:09, Ian Jackson wrote:

>
> In the days of 900MHz analogue (FM) phones, I once made a successful
> call (direct to the UK) from an upper deck of a cross-channel ferry in
> Calais harbour. What's that? At least 18 miles?

I think at it's narrowest point, the channel is about 22 miles wide, and
I'm pretty sure that the maximum range for GSM900 is a fair bit more
than that.

Some time ago on the News, there was a story about people ending up with
big mobile phone bills, when they had been to certain coastal areas in
Kent. This was because the local mobile signals happened to be very
poor, and there were strong signals coming across the channel from
France. So their mobiles ended up connecting to the French mobile
networks, and they ended up being billed for international roaming.

Richard.

[Richard Evans]

On 09/03/2013 20:41, J G Miller wrote:

>
> Well the villages were in Doggerland (hence the name Dogger Bank
> for the plateau that is still there).
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.ORG/wiki/Doggerland>
>
> <http://sci.tech-archive.NET/Archive/sci.archaeology/2008-07/msg00136.html>
>
> <http://www.bbc.co.UK/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18687504>
>
> "It was believed to have been home to tens of thousands of
> people before it disappeared underwater."

Ah, so this was during, and at at the end of the last ice age, when sea
levels were lower than they are today.

>
>
> Tens of thousands of people means that they must have been living in
> villages at the very least.
>
> A rather informative article and photographs of submerged remains at
>
> <http://www.dailymail.co.UK/sciencetech/article-2167731/Britains-Atlantis-North-sea--huge-undersea-kingdom-swamped-tsunami-5-500-years-ago.html>
>
> No signs of any cellphone masts though. ;)

Humm...
I think cell phones were invented quite some time after the last ice
age. In fact I'm pretty sure that even electricity was discovered quite
some time after the ice age lol

[Richard Evans]

On 08/03/2013 19:57, tony sayer wrote:

> I believe someone was setting up a meter reading system around 180 MHz
> but don't know if anything came of it...

I assume you are talking about the same idea I heard about. The idea was
that electric meters had low power transceivers in them, and a special
meter reading vehicle could be driven down the road, and make contact
with all the meters using radio waves, so that all the meters in the
road could be read, without the need to visit each individual home.

I would guess that the availability of smart meters using GSM would have
meant there wasn't much point implementing this system.

Richard E.

[hwh]

On 3/10/13 4:56 AM, Richard Evans wrote:
> It also looks like the Guardian article was wrong about many things.

Certainly does.

It's all about money really. Buy a new transmitter and save a lot of
money on power consumption. Or not. The rest is politics.

gr, hwh

[Ian]

"Richard Evans" <rp.evan...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:khh9be$qq6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Hello Richard. I have a recollection that one journalist heard that these
meters used satellite comms and assumed there would be a [very] low-flying
satellite coming along the street. Not sure if this was originally a spoof
idea which was heard by a not-very-technical journalist.

We've missed something ... back in the 1950s here in the UK I thought that
the Queen or prominent MP opened a nuclear power station and made a speech
which included a claim that electricity would be too cheap to meter.
Ah - halycon days.


Regards, Ian.

[Ian]

"hwh" <iime...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:513c4bf6$0$6934$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...

Hello chaps.

The BBC says it cannot afford to replace Droitwich.
Is it a BBC transmitter or do they rent/lese transmission time on it from
another operator/owner?

Regards, Ian.

[J G Miller]

On Sunday, March 10th, 2013, at 14:14:52h +0000,
Ian asked a question which has been answered several times before:

> Is it a BBC transmitter or do they rent/lese transmission time on it from
> another operator/owner?

The BBC has not owned nor operated transmitters or sites since

(o) domestic transmission facilities were sold on February 28th, 1997
to Castle Transmission Services
(now Arqiva, major stockholder Canada Pensions Plan)

(o) and also in 1997, its external transmission facilities to
Merlin Communications
(now VT Communications, owned by Babcock Group)

This was all part of the policy of the Conservative and Unionist Party
of Great Britain to privatise state owned facilities including the BBC.

Remember, if the state owns these things, then it prevents wealth
re-distribution to the pockets of the private stockholders.

As ensuring that wealthy people become even more wealthy is the most
important aspect of a modern capitalist society, you should always
vote for the Conservative and Unionist Party candidate, to ensure
that your money is put in to the pockets of the rich and famous.

[tony sayer]

In article <khi4h2$eq$2...@speranza.aioe.org>, Ian <no-spam-please@I-am-
Veggie.org> scribeth thus

Its owned and operated by Arqiva who look at after most all BBC
transmission in the UK these days..

What is probably happening is that the TX is old and spares are getting
scarce. It would be possible to put in a new solid state transmitter but
that will of course cost, and the BBC probably feel that they do not
want to pay for that so simplest thing is to shut 198 K longwave down...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/droitwich/index.php

--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <khilj4$pb5$4...@dont-email.me>, J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
scribeth thus

Didn't Birt want this sell off to pay for digital TV?..
--
Tony Sayer

[J G Miller]

On Sunday, March 10th, 2013, at 19:17:34h +0000, Tony Sayer asked:

> Didn't Birt want this sell off to pay for digital TV?..

That was the "official" reason, but remember, it was
Mrs Thatcher's minion, Marmaduke Hussey, that appointed
Mr "internal markets" Birt to replace Mr Chequebook Checkland,
who had been too slow in implementing privatisation.

Upon checking what they have to say on Wonkeypedia about Birt,
they claim

"During his tenure as Director-General, Birt restructured the BBC
in accordance with Conservative Party privatisation policies,
in the face of much internal opposition."

There is something which Birt was correct about, namely his
warning in 1999

"Our culture may be degraded by the instant availability
in new media of the raucous, the vulgar and the sensationalist."

and the BBC has done its best to make this happen especially with
its output on its *digital tv station* BBC Three.

[J G Miller]

On Sunday, March 10th, 2013, at 19:15:26h +0000, Tony Sayer explained:

> What is probably happening is that the TX is old and spares are getting
> scarce. It would be possible to put in a new solid state transmitter but
> that will of course cost, and the BBC probably feel that they do not
> want to pay for that

So what you are really saying is that because Arqiva have
an effective monopoly on providing this service, they can
charge what they want to charge?

So much for competition in a free market economy, eh?

[Richard Evans]

On 10/03/2013 14:14, Ian wrote:
> Hello chaps.
>
> The BBC says it cannot afford to replace Droitwich.
> Is it a BBC transmitter or do they rent/lese transmission time on it from
> another operator/owner?

I'm pretty sure that Aqiva now own the transmitter.

However why would Aqiva pay for an expensive new transmitter, unless
they were assured of getting enough money from the BBC to make it a
profitable exercise.

I would guess that Aqiva would want a firm commitment from the BBC to
pay higher leasing costs, for a minimum period of time, in order to make
it profitable for them. And I would guess that the BBC would be
reluctant to commit to such a deal. Hence Aqiva would not want to buy
the expensive new transmitter.

One thing I did read however, I think it was on Digital Spy.
Valves used for high power transmitters, are almost always designed to
be taken apart and refurbished after they have failed. This may be a
specialized job, but surely there must an organization somewhere that
can carry out the refurbishment. Even if it is workshop in a University
somewhere. So couldn't they just keep the old failed valves, and once
they have a few, get them refurbished, to use again later.

Richard E.

[Scott]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:39:33 +0000, Richard Evans
<rp.evan...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>On 10/03/2013 14:14, Ian wrote:
>> Hello chaps.
>>
>> The BBC says it cannot afford to replace Droitwich.
>> Is it a BBC transmitter or do they rent/lese transmission time on it from
>> another operator/owner?
>
>I'm pretty sure that Aqiva now own the transmitter.

Unless they sold it to venture capitalists and leased it back again.

>
>However why would Aqiva pay for an expensive new transmitter, unless
>they were assured of getting enough money from the BBC to make it a
>profitable exercise.

They wouldn't. Maybe they could award a build own and operate
contract to another company then subcontract the work.

>
>I would guess that Aqiva would want a firm commitment from the BBC to
>pay higher leasing costs, for a minimum period of time, in order to make
>it profitable for them. And I would guess that the BBC would be
>reluctant to commit to such a deal. Hence Aqiva would not want to buy
>the expensive new transmitter.

I expect they would offer the BBC a price taking into account the
contract term.

>
>One thing I did read however, I think it was on Digital Spy.
>Valves used for high power transmitters, are almost always designed to
>be taken apart and refurbished after they have failed. This may be a
>specialized job, but surely there must an organization somewhere that
>can carry out the refurbishment. Even if it is workshop in a University
>somewhere. So couldn't they just keep the old failed valves, and once
>they have a few, get them refurbished, to use again later.
>

I thought you could buy them from China :-) Or was it Russia?

PS What about the transmitters in Westerglen and Burghead? Are they
wholly independent of Droitwich? Do they rely on valves also? If
not, could they be used for Radio Scotland if Droitwich closes?

[hwh]

http://www.transradio.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=64&lang=en

gr, hwh

[Richard Evans]

On 10/03/2013 20:54, Scott wrote:

>
> PS What about the transmitters in Westerglen and Burghead? Are they
> wholly independent of Droitwich? Do they rely on valves also? If
> not, could they be used for Radio Scotland if Droitwich closes?
>

I don't know for certain.

However I read about new 50Kw MW transmitters installed at Droitwhich,
which were solid state (no Valves). They use 3 transmitters combined to
make a 150Kw MW transmission. These new MW transmitters were installed
at around about the same time as the Scottish LW transmitters, which are
also 50Kw. So I would think it is a reasonable guess that the Scottish
LW transmitters are also solid state.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

But is it really about competition, or is it about certain politicians
helping their friends to line their pockets.

[Richard Evans]

A couple more thought.

The current masts are 213m high, and they were built in the 1930s.
At 198Khz, the wavelength is about 1515m, and 1/4 wavelength is about
378m. This is less than twice the height of the existing towers.

I wonder whether any advances in construction techniques might make it
easier to build high towers today. If they could build towers 213m high
in the 1930s, would it be feasible to build a single tower 378m high
today? If they could do that, then how much more efficient would a 1/4
aerial be compared to the current T aerial?

Perhaps then they could get the same coverage using a lot less power.
Then the cost of a new transmitter would then be considerably less, and
so would the running costs.

Again however, it comes down to money, and the reluctance to invest in
LW transmission.

My other thought was that back in my CB days, I used a 5 foot high
aerial on my car, when 1/4 wavelength is around about 9 feet. The
solution was to use loading coils, which were actually at the bottom of
the aerial so that they wouldn't sway around. The result was pretty
good, although not as good as a full 1/4 wave whip. I wonder whether it
would be worth doing something similar using one of the masts at
Droitwhich as a mast radiator, and use loading coils at the bottom to
compensate for the short length. I read that one of the towers is
already used as a mast radiator for MW transmission, perhaps the other
could be converted to a mast radiator for LW transmission. The big
question however would be whether this arrangement would be more
efficient than the existing T aerial. I assume the answer must be no,
otherwise they would have done this by now.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

Actually forget that.
I can't find where I read that, and I just read that the 3 50Kw MW
transmitters did use valves for the high power circuits.

However eve if the Scottish LW transmitters are using valves, presumably
there are quite a few valves around that are capable of doing the job,
as there are quite a lot of 50Kw MW transmitters.

Richard E.

[Richard Evans]

On 09/03/2013 23:17, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <khg40r$5sh$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Richard Evans <rp.evans.nos

>>>

>> Could radio waves somehow be affecting my hearing, and making DAB sound
>> like sh*t, or does DAB really sound like that?
>
> It'd take more than a tinfoil beanie hat, B transposer or an electrosmog
> corrector card to make the best digital radio system in the world sound
> any better;!..
>
> You know its the trooth;!....
>

I assume you understand the concept of sarcasm lol

[tony sayer]

In article <khiqtj$4b4$2...@dont-email.me>, J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
scribeth thus

Yes and yes but the competition commission allowed it all to happen.
Other smaller TX providers exist and there are a very few furrign ones
that have made inroads into the UK market, but I suspect that in the
case of Droitwich it would be too expensive to run fir the BBC perceived
benefit, no matter who was operating it
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <khir20$40i$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Richard Evans <rp.evans.nos
p...@tiscali.co.uk> scribeth thus

You go to Russia or China for that, but behind it all the BBC I suspect
don't want to pay for it anymore having to support a large DAB network..
--
Tony Sayer

[J G Miller]

On Sunday, March 10th, 2013, at 21:07:23h +0000, Richard Evans wrote:

> But is it really about competition, or is it about certain politicians
> helping their friends to line their pockets.

That is one of the primary purposes of winning an election,
and why a change of government every now and again is a
good thing -- it helps with the wealth redistribution.

But a canny capitalist knows when to jump to the winning ship as
appropriate, as Uncle Rupert has so ably demonstrated.

[J G Miller]

On Sunday, March 10th, 2013, at 22:02:00h +0000, Richard Evans asked:

> If they could build towers 213m high in the 1930s, would it be feasible
> to build a single tower 378m high today?

From Wonkypedia:

The KVLY-TV mast (formerly the KTHI-TV mast) is a 2,063 ft (628.8 m) tall
television-transmitting mast in Blanchard, Traill County, North Dakota.

[hwh]

On 3/10/13 11:02 PM, Richard Evans wrote:
> The big
> question however would be whether this arrangement would be more
> efficient than the existing T aerial. I assume the answer must be no,
> otherwise they would have done this by now.

Exactly. Going below 90 degrees for a mast radiator is very inefficient.
To outperform the current set-up would require a huge tower.

gr, hwh

[Richard Evans]

I guess you mean that T aerials are more efficient that bass loaded whips.

[Richard Evans]

That would be getting on for 1/2 wave at 198 Khz. Just goes to show that
things can be done if there is the will and the money.

I guess the BBC must have lost interest in being the best in the world,
when the bean counters got involved.

[ne...@the.shed]

The fact that they're still pushing DAB as superior to FM says it all.

NJR

[Richard Evans]

On 12/03/2013 10:10, ne...@the.shed wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Mar 2013 00:44:18 +0000

>>

>> I guess the BBC must have lost interest in being the best in the world,
>> when the bean counters got involved.
>
> The fact that they're still pushing DAB as superior to FM says it all.

Well that may be a slightly different matter.

DAB was most likely designed with the best of intentions, and if the BBC
hadn't launched all their new stations on DAB, then things might have
turned out very differently, and we might now have a good digital radio
service on DAB.

However for one reason or another, it has all gone wrong now, and it's
about time they admitted that DAB has not worked out the way it was
meant to to, ie. good in car sound quality.

Oh and when I say good sound quality, I accept that most people may find
speech programs sound better on DAB than on MW. However that doesn't
make it good sound quality, it only means that it isn't too bad when
used for speech only.

Richard E.