List of famous people who could have been aborted due to diseases and genetic deficiencies?
Graham Weeks
Peter G wrote:
> Hello. First post and sorry if it's off-topic. Just tell me so, if
> that's the case.
>
> What I'm looking for is a list I once saw. Basically it was a list of
> several famous people throughout history that today might have been
> aborted because of genetical deficiences or other handicaps/defects
> detectable with todaus science. Anybody know about such a list?
Would you consider abortion in the following four situations?
1.There's a preacher and wife who are very, very poor. They already have
14 children. Now she finds out she's pregnant with their 15th! They're
living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the
excessive world population, would you recommend she get an abortion?
2.The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. They have four
children. The first child is blind, the second is dead. The third child
is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she's pregnant again. Given the
extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?
3.A white man raped a 13 year old black girl and she became pregnant. If
you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?
4.A teenage girl is pregnant. She's not married. Her fiance is not the
father of the baby, and he's very upset. Would you consider recommending
abortion?
If you would have recommended abortion in any of these situations, you
should know that...
In the first case, you recommended killing John Wesley, one of the great
evangelists of the 18th century.
In the second case, you recommended killing Ludwig Von Beethoven, one of
the most famous musical composers of all time.
In the third case, you recommended killing Ethel Waters, one of the
nations leading gospel singers.
In the fourth case, you have just recommended killing Jesus Christ.
--
Graham J Weeks M.R.Pharm.S.
http://www.weeks-g.dircon.co.uk/ My homepage of quotations
http://www.grace.org.uk/churches/ealing.html Our church
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A God all mercy is a God unjust. Edward Young. 1683-1765
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William C Waterhouse
In article <3DC2D460...@REMOVEdircon.co.uk>, Graham Weeks <wee...@REMOVEdircon.co.uk> writes:
>...
> Would you consider abortion in the following four situations?
> 2.The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. They have four
> children. The first child is blind, the second is dead. The third child
> is deaf, the fourth has TB. She finds she's pregnant again. Given the
> extreme situation, would you consider recommending abortion?
> In the second case, you recommended killing Ludwig Von Beethoven, one of
> the most famous musical composers of all time.
This is totally false, as any biography of Beethoven would confirm.
His parents were married in September 1767. A first child (Ludwig Maria)
was born in April 1769 but lived only six days. The composer was born
in December 1770, and thus at his birth he was the oldest child. The mother
did die of tuberculosis, but that was 17 years later. (And, by the way,
his name was the prosaic "van Beethoven," not the seemingly-aristocratic
"Von Beethoven.")
William C. Waterhouse
Penn State
ObQuote:
He was an artist, but also a man, a man in every sense, in the
highest sense. Because he shut himself off from the world, they called
him hostile; and callous, because he shunned feelings. Oh, he who knows
he is hardened does not flee! (It is the more delicate point
that is most easily blunted, that bends or breaks.)
Excess of feeling avoids feelings. He fled the world because he did
not find, in the whole compass of his loving nature, a weapon with
which to resist it. He withdrew from his fellow men after he had given
them everything and had received nothing in return. He remained
alone because he found no second self. But until his death he preserved
a human heart for all men, a father's heart for his own people,
the whole world.
Thus he was, thus he died, thus he will live for all time!
--- Franz Grillparzer, Funeral Oration for Beethoven
Gareth Owen
> Would you consider abortion in the following four situations?
[snip]
> In the fourth case, you have just recommended killing Jesus Christ.
Its cute the way the question changes from "consider"
to "recommend" from the start to the finish.
Fundamentally dishonest, but cute.
--
Gareth Owen
Font-o-Meter! Proportional Monospaced
^
Tom
>> Would you consider abortion in the following four situations?
> [snip]
>> In the fourth case, you have just recommended killing Jesus Christ.
> Its cute the way the question changes from "consider"
> to "recommend" from the start to the finish.
> Fundamentally dishonest, but cute.
An appealing idea, in any case.
Tom Parsons
--
--
t...@panix.com | The mob has many heads, but no brains.
| --Thomas Fuller
http://www.panix.com/~twp |
Grace McGarvie
"killed" for our sins. I don't understand the logic there because even
animal sacrifice doesn't make any sense to me, let alone human
sacrifice, but why would the people who extoll the idea of "Christ was
killed for our sins" be objecting to the idea of "killing Jesus Christ"
OBQ
War is an old habit of thought . . . that must now pass, as human
sacrifice and human slavery have passed. Herman Wouk
Christian authors exclaim against the practice of offering up human
sacrifices, which, they say, is done in some countries; and those
authors make those exclamations without ever reflecting that their own
doctrine of salvation is founded on a human sacrifice. They are saved,
they say, by the blood of Christ. The Christian religion begins with a
dream and ends with a murder. Thomas Paine
--
Amazing Grace's Eclectic Quotation Collection
*93,000 quotations, proverbs, by people of all philosophies, ages and
cultures. For more info. or free sample of one category, send a personal
e-mail: gem...@attbi.com
. . . Grace McGarvie . . .
. . Plymouth,Mn. 55447 U.S.A.
Gareth Owen
> Another interesting point - wasn't the point that Christ had to be
> "killed" for our sins.
So, if he'd died as an infant -- or earlier -- we'd have had the same effect,
only the environment would have an extra tree due to the need for one fewer
crucifix....
ObQuote : "All your crying won't do you no good,
Come on up to the house
Come down off the cross,
We could use the wood"
-- Tom Waits & Kathleen Brennan - "Come on up to the house" (song)
--
Gareth Owen
Enjoy your job, make lots of money, work within the law. Choose any two.
Sr. Eveline
> animal sacrifice doesn't make any sense to me, let alone human
sacrifice
+ + + + + + +
A mind all logic is like a knife all blade.
It makes the hand bleed that uses it.
~Rabindranath Tagore
Sr. Eveline
+ aliud et idem +
Joe
an interest in the Savior's blood!
Died he for me? who caused his pain!
For me? who him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
--Charles Wesley
"Grace McGarvie" <gem...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DCFF964...@attbi.com...
Grace McGarvie
we've broken up, I think it's time you kept your promise. Anonymous
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright
morning hours, ran to the market place and cried incessantly: 'I am
looking for God! I am looking for God!' - As many of those who did not
believe in God were standing together there he excited considerable
laughter. Have you lost him then? said one. Did he lose his way like a
child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone
on a voyage? or emigrated? thus they shouted and laughed. The madman
sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances. 'Where has
God gone?' he cried. 'I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I.
We are all his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able
to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire
horizon? What did we do when we unchained this earth from its sun?
Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all
suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in
all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as
through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space?
Has it not become colder? Is more and more night not coming on all the
time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything
yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not
smell anything yet of God's decomposition? - gods too decompose. God is
dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, the
murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was holiest
and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death
under our knives - who will wipe this blood off us? With what water
could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred
games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too
great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to seem worthy
of it? There has never been a greater deed - and whoever shall be born
after us, for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history
than all history hitherto.' Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Grace McGarvie
conclusion and finally assert, as did Thomas Paine, that the biblical
account of Jesus has every mark of fraud and imposition stamped upon the
face of it. George H. Smith
Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication - after
that it is only an account of something which that person says was a
revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to
believe it, it can not be incumbent on me to believe it in the same
manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word
for it that it was made to him. Thomas Paine
--
Sr. Eveline
>conclusion and finally assert, as did Thomas Paine, that the
biblical
>account of Jesus has every mark of fraud and imposition stamped
upon the
>face of it. George H. Smith
> Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication -
after
> that it is only an account of something which that person says was
a
> revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to
> believe it, it can not be incumbent on me to believe it in the
same
> manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only
his word
> for it that it was made to him. Thomas Paine
+ + + + +
Ah, but the mystery is that others reading it often *do* get a
revelation of their very own! <s>
I do wonder why atheists therefore go on ad nauseum insisting on
logical proof - and seem so very err- insistent - that their claims
of illogicality should cause the believer to re-cant.. Indeed, they
often seem impelled to proselytise more than many of those so-called
believers!
OBQ
It is not a scientific textbook. It is not a textbook on religion.
It is not a textbook at all; it is a revelation from God!
~ D.J. Kennedy, What if Jesus had never been born? ( 1994).
I think it is impossible to explain faith.
It is like trying to explain air, which one cannot do by dividing
it into its component parts and labelling them scientifically.
It must be breathed to be understood.
-- Patrick White
Daniel P. B. Smith
Gareth Owen <use...@gwowen.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Grace McGarvie <gem...@attbi.com> writes:
>
> > Another interesting point - wasn't the point that Christ had to be
> > "killed" for our sins.
>
> So, if he'd died as an infant -- or earlier -- we'd have had the same effect,
> only the environment would have an extra tree due to the need for one fewer
> crucifix....
I do think the point is supposed to be, not that Christ "had to be
killed" but that he died _voluntarily_.
The Sanity Inspector
wrote!
>Christian authors exclaim against the practice of offering up human
>sacrifices, which, they say, is done in some countries; and those
>authors make those exclamations without ever reflecting that their own
>doctrine of salvation is founded on a human sacrifice. They are saved,
>they say, by the blood of Christ. The Christian religion begins with a
>dream and ends with a murder. Thomas Paine
Poor Tom found that his beloved republic of reason was even
more bloodthirsty than any Passion Play, or Inquisition. Against the
wrongs of Christianity stands Christ himself, but if Reason demands
massacre, then...?
Obquote:
My intention was to step aside from the other prisoners so
that, being seen standing by myself, those nearest the table might
overlook me and I might escape at the first opportunity. Already the
row of prisoners was much dwindled. The killers had despatched
successively the Abbe' Gervais, secretary to the Archbishopric, the
Grand Vicar of Strasbourg, that poor priest of the Hotel Dieu, the
President of the Higher Council of Corsica, and forty more. It was
probably almost 2 am, though I was no longer aware of the clock.
Seemingly, I was increasingly impervious to the incessant killings,
and could think only of myself, though seeing all my companions
slaughtered, lit by the many torches illuminating this grisly sight.
...Nevertheless, I confess, in shame, that despite my imminent
danger, my last moments apparently so close, I was not wholly
concentrating on God, or resigned to death. Indeed, the very
opposite. I did not cease schiming my escape from the terrifying
massacre. Those blows from sabres, jabs from pikes, petrified me but
without inspiring the piety which should inform our last
hour....Sometimes the massacres were halted for the killers to hear
the exhortations from other Sections, reporting on the massacres in
their own prisons.
--Abbe' de Salamon, a survivor of the September Massacres,
_Memoire_, c.1800
--
bruce
The dignified don't even enter in the game.
--The Jam
Grace McGarvie
I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment
that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders.
Robert Green Ingersoll
Christian theology is not only opposed to the scientific spirit; it is
opposed to every other form of rational thinking. Henry Louis Mencken
--
Grace McGarvie
for practice ... As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of
despotism; and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests. Thomas Paine
The Christian religion is derogatory to the Creator in all its articles.
It puts the Creator in an inferior point of view, and places the
Christian Devil above him. Thomas Paine
But there are times when men have serious thoughts, and it is at such
times, when they begin to think, that they begin to doubt the truth of
the Christian religion; and well they may, for it is too fanciful and
too full of conjecture, inconsistency, improbability and irrationality
to afford consolation to the thoughtful man. His reason revolts against
his creed. Thomas Paine
It is impossible to reason upon things not comprehensible by reason; and
therefore, if you keep to your text, which priests seldom do ... you
must admit a religion to which reason can apply, and this certainly is
not the Christian religion. There is not an article in the Christian
religion that is cognizable by reason. Thomas Paine
Christian authors exclaim against the practice of offering up human
sacrifices, which, they say, is done in some countries; and those
authors make those exclamations without ever reflecting that their own
doctrine of salvation is founded on a human sacrifice. They are saved,
they say, by the blood of Christ. The Christian religion begins with a
dream and ends with a murder. Thomas Paine
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify
and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. Thomas Paine
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles;
it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing;
and it admits of no conclusion. Thomas Paine
--
Gareth Owen
> And can it be that I should gain
> an interest in the Savior's blood!
> Died he for me? who caused his pain!
> For me? who him to death pursued?
> Amazing love! How can it be
> that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
> --Charles Wesley
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine.
... My sins are my own, they belong to me."
-- Patti Smith, Gloria/In Exelcis Deo. (song)
--
Gareth Owen
Fast And Bulbous
Joe
> So he was not sentenced to death by someone???
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and
you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the
cross. But God raised him from the dead ---
--Peter, Acts 2:23, NIV Bible
> I have little confidence in any enterprise or business or investment
> that promises dividends only after the death of the stockholders.
> Robert Green Ingersoll
>
> Christian theology is not only opposed to the scientific spirit; it is
> opposed to every other form of rational thinking. Henry Louis Mencken
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and
him crucified. --Paul, I Corinthians 2:2, NIV Bible
Grace McGarvie
sin?
Predestination, n. The doctrine that all things occur according to
program, not be confused with that of foreordination. The difference is
great enough to have deluged Christendom with ink, to say nothing of the
gore. Ambrose Bierce
Leopards break into the temple and drink the sacrificial chalices dry;
this occurs repeatedly, again and again; finally it can be reckoned upon
beforehand and becomes part of the ceremony. Franz Kafka
Predestination was doomed from the start. Anonymous
--
William C Waterhouse
In article <dpbsmith-34F049...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
> ...
> I do think the point is supposed to be, not that Christ "had to be
> killed" but that he died _voluntarily_.
This was a topic of enourmous theological contention. The problem
is that, in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus does not die by his own will
but as an act of submission:
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee;
take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but
what thou wilt.
---- Mark 14:36 (parallels Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42).
John, of course, is quite different.
Daniel P. B. Smith
Grace McGarvie <gem...@attbi.com> wrote:
> So he was not sentenced to death by someone???
Sure, but as in so many cases, he had many opportunities to escape had
he been willing to fudge just a bit, engage in the slightest bit of
hypocrisy, go along to get along, etc. The Romans were probably not
really all that eager to execute a popular preacher with a large public
following.
Sr. Eveline
+ + + + +
'Tis cruel to prolong a paine, and to defer a joy.
~ Sir Charles Smedley, Song: Love Still has Something of the Sea.
Hans van Dok
<EVE...@chariotXCAPS.net.au> wrote:
[In fact, quoted someone first, but the reference has been snipped for some
reason.]
|> Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication -
|after
|> that it is only an account of something which that person says was
|a
|> revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to
|> believe it, it can not be incumbent on me to believe it in the
|same
|> manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only
|his word
|> for it that it was made to him. Thomas Paine
| Ah, but the mystery is that others reading it often *do* get a
|revelation of their very own! <s>
|I do wonder why atheists therefore go on ad nauseum insisting on
|logical proof - and seem so very err- insistent - that their claims
|of illogicality should cause the believer to re-cant.. Indeed, they
|often seem impelled to proselytise more than many of those so-called
|believers!
1) "Pray" tell us who these particular atheists are?
2) What is wrong with insisting on logical proof?
3) Are their claims of illogicality correct? If so, why would you not agree
with them? If not, what's the problem with refuting those claims?
4) Have you compared attempts of believers to proselytise with those of
atheists?
|OBQ
|It is not a scientific textbook. It is not a textbook on religion.
|It is not a textbook at all; it is a revelation from God!
|~ D.J. Kennedy, What if Jesus had never been born? ( 1994).
75% correct, not bad.
|I think it is impossible to explain faith.
|It is like trying to explain air, which one cannot do by dividing
|it into its component parts and labelling them scientifically.
|It must be breathed to be understood.
|-- Patrick White
This is plain nonsense, of course, but since Mr White is not around I will
not go into it.
ObQuote:---
``It occurs to me that the man and his religion are one and the same
thing. The unknown exists. Each man projects on the blankness the
shape of his own prticular world-view. He endows his creation with his
personal volitions and attitudes. The religious man stating his case is
in essence explaining himself. When a fanatic is contradicted he feels
a threat to his own existence; he reacts violenty.'' ``Interesting!''
declared the fat merchant. ``And the atheist?'' ``He projects no image
upon the blank whatever. The cosmic mysteries he accepts as things in
themselves; he feels no need to hang a more or less human mask upon
them. Otherwise, the correlation between a man and the shape into which
he molds the unknown for greater ease of manipulation is exact.''
---Vance, Jack (1916-)
_Servants of the Wankh_ (1969) ch. 3
Hans,
--
Dulce ridentum Lalagen amabo,
Dulce loquentum.
---Horace, _Odes_ bk. 1 (23BC) no. 22, l. 23
Graham Weeks
William C Waterhouse wrote:
Matt. 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he
gave up his spirit.
John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is
finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
In the above texts it is shown that Jesus does die by an act of his own
will. His life was not taken from him. He surrendered it.
Having no sin of his own he did not have to die.
Heidi
> |It is not a scientific textbook. It is not a textbook on
religion.
> |It is not a textbook at all; it is a revelation from God!
> |~ D.J. Kennedy, What if Jesus had never been born? ( 1994).
>
> 75% correct, not bad
Wow! We are allowed to grade quotes here? Cool!!!
> |I think it is impossible to explain faith.
> |It is like trying to explain air, which one cannot do by
dividing
> |it into its component parts and labelling them scientifically.
> |It must be breathed to be understood.
> |-- Patrick White
>
> This is plain nonsense, of course, but since Mr White is not
around I will
> not go into it.
Oops! I didn't see in that FAQ thingo that U can't quote or discuss
what dead people said -Pity, 'cos I'd luv to hear why that White
guy was talking nonsense...probably 'cos he was a pooftah, I guess?
Those noble laureate guys can't express themselves very well anyway
:-(
Mr Dok - you seem a bit grumpy today..that's OK! (my grand dad gets
like that when his prostate is playin' up!)
obq
In conclusion, there is a marvelous anecdote from the occasion of
Russell's ninetieth birthday that best serves to summarize his
attitude toward God and religion. A London lady sat next to him at
this party, and over the soup she suggested to him that he was not
only the world's most famous atheist but, by this time, very
probably the world's oldest atheist. "What will you do, Bertie, if
it turns out you're wrong?" she asked. "I mean, what if--uh--when
the time comes, you should meet Him? What will you say?" Russell was
delighted with the question. His bright, birdlike eyes grew even
brighter as he contemplated this possible future dialogue, and then
he pointed a finger upward and cried, "Why, I should say, 'God, you
gave us insufficient evidence.'"
~Al Seckel(ed) , Bertrand Russell on God and Religion
____
Heidi
Hans van Dok
|> |OBQ
|> |It is not a scientific textbook. It is not a textbook on
|religion.
|> |It is not a textbook at all; it is a revelation from God!
|> |~ D.J. Kennedy, What if Jesus had never been born? ( 1994).
|>
|> 75% correct, not bad
|
|Wow! We are allowed to grade quotes here? Cool!!!
Well, I am!
|> |I think it is impossible to explain faith.
|> |It is like trying to explain air, which one cannot do by
|dividing
|> |it into its component parts and labelling them scientifically.
|> |It must be breathed to be understood.
|> |-- Patrick White
|>
|> This is plain nonsense, of course, but since Mr White is not
|around I will
|> not go into it.
|
| Oops! I didn't see in that FAQ thingo that U can't quote or discuss
|what dead people said
This may be because there's nothing to that effect in the FAQ.
| -Pity, 'cos I'd luv to hear why that White
|guy was talking nonsense...
It's nice to want things!
The nonsense that charms is close to sense.
---Cooley, Mason (1927-)
_City Aphorisms, Eleventh Selection_ (1993)
| probably 'cos he was a pooftah, I guess?
Please explain why being a ``pooftah'' would make one talk nonsense.
I'll just remind you of the faculty rules. Rule one---no pooftahs.
Rule two---no member of the faculty is to maltreat the Abbos in any way
whatsoever, if there's anyone watching. Rule three---no pooftahs. Rule
four---I don't want to catch anyone not drinking in their room after
lights out. Rule five---no pooftahs. Rule six---there is _no_ rule
six. Rule seven---no pooftahs.
---Chapman, Graham (1941-1989); Cleese, John (1939-); Gilliam, Terry
(1940-); Idle, Eric (1943-); Jones, Terry (1942-); Palin, Michael
(1943-)
_Monty Python's Flying Circus_ (BBC TV) Series 2, no. 9
in _Just the Words_ (1989) vol. 1, p. 296
|Those noble laureate guys can't express themselves very well anyway
|:-(
Non sequitur.
| Mr Dok - you seem a bit grumpy today..that's OK! (my grand dad gets
|like that when his prostate is playin' up!)
Please... if you'd like to stay formal, it's Mr Van Dok. It's fine with me
if you call me Hans, though.
Let us make distinctions, call things by the right names.
---Thoreau, Henry David (1817-1862)
Journal entry, 28 November 1860
in _Writings_ (1906 ed.)
libreria
> Dulce loquentum.
> ---Horace, _Odes_ bk. 1 (23BC) no. 22, l. 23
Then I guess you just adore Heidi!
Difficilis, querulus, laudator temporis acti.
Se puero, castigator, censorque minorum.
~ Horace, Ars Poetica.
<s>
libreria
::::::::::::::::::
Hans van Dok
wrote:
|> Dulce ridentum Lalagen amabo,
|> Dulce loquentum.
|> ---Horace, _Odes_ bk. 1 (23BC) no. 22, l. 23
|:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
|Then I guess you just adore Heidi!
Hm.
Hans,
--
You kill me so courteously.
---Lois McMasters Bujold, _Memory_ (1996) ch. 6
Heidi
> Hm.
> Hans,
Only Hmmmmmm?????
Well Hmmmphhhh! to you, Mr.VD!
obq
Crabbed age and youth cannot live together;
Youth is full of pleasance, age full of care;
Youth like the summer morn, age like winter weather;
Youth like summer brave, age like winter bare.
~William Shakespeare, The Passionate Pilgrim
____
Heidi