Jane Fonda on 9-11 terrorist attack
Jane Fonda Files
- Sept. 20 on Mix 105.7 FM and WGST (Atlanta)
Source for quote
http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2001/9/22/115145
Also:
"I would think that if you understood what communism was you would hope,
you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists."
- Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in Detroit Free Press
of November 22, 1970.
Source: - http://vikingphoenix.com/news/quotes.htm#media
Jane Fonda Files
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/JaneFonda.htm
Doug Browning
Jane Fonda Files wrote:
> [Americans must] "try to understand the underlying causes" - Jane Fonda
> - Sept. 20 on Mix 105.7 FM and WGST (Atlanta)
What's the deal with the brackets around the first two words of this quote?
Don Thompson
clear.
Note: a.w.v readers generally don't give a shit what "news" the bitch
makes.
--
Don Thompson
Another Thompson Scion
"Doug Browning" <doug...@escape.ca> wrote in message
news:3BBCCD46...@escape.ca...
doug
great idea Jane:
"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE." You shouldn't even comment on a fight
between two kids at a playground.
Your out of touch, you don't get it and looks like you never will. So once
again, when you feel like you want to comment on war or political unrest
just:
"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE."
"Jane Fonda Files" <Fonda...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
news:3BBC9555...@vikingphoenix.com...
Speedbyrd
>Boy, this dame really knows when to quit while she's ahead, huh? Here's a
>great idea Jane:
>
>"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE." You shouldn't even comment on a fight
>between two kids at a playground.
>
>Your out of touch, you don't get it and looks like you never will. So once
>again, when you feel like you want to comment on war or political unrest
>just:
>"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE."
>
>
>
She has a right to her opinion just as we all do. Please don't start with the sappy
patriotism. It's not a good time for that.
>
>
>"Jane Fonda Files" <Fonda...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
>news:3BBC9555...@vikingphoenix.com...
>> [Americans must] "try to understand the underlying causes" - Jane Fonda
>> - Sept. 20 on Mix 105.7 FM and WGST (Atlanta)
>>
>> Source for quote
>> http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2001/9/22/115145
>>
>> Also:
>> "I would think that if you understood what communism was you would hope,
>> you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists."
>> - Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in Detroit Free Press
>> of November 22, 1970.
>> Source: - http://vikingphoenix.com/news/quotes.htm#media
>>
>>
>> Jane Fonda Files
>>
>http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/Jane
>Fonda.htm
>
The Speedbyrd®
How's my posting?
1-800-eat-SHIT
AirForce96
probably quit while she is ahead.
Donna L. Bridges
With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff
For the story behind the story...
Saturday, Sept. 22, 2001 12:26 p.m. EDT
Jane Fonda: U.S. Must Understand 'Underlying
Causes' of Terror Attack
"Hanoi Jane" Fonda advised Americans Thursday to "try to
understand the underlying causes" of the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon
that killed 6,700 of her fellow citizens, adding that it
would be a mistake for the U.S. to retaliate militarily
against the perpetrators.
Discussing the attacks on an Atlanta radio station, the
former actress and ex-wife of CNN chief Ted Turner said
she was concerned about the emotional reaction to the
disaster.
"It's hard to be hopeful, frankly," she told Mix 105.7 FM.
"What concerns me very much is the saber rattling and the
calls for vengeance."
"I think it has to be dealt with as a crime," the one-time
exercise guru counseled. "And when there's a crime, you
don't bomb a city or a country - you use very, very clever
intelligence, undercover-type operations to get the
criminals and punish them, and then you try to understand
the underlying causes of the crime."
Fonda's comments have not been reported outside Atlanta,
where they caused an uproar on talk radio station WGST on
Friday.
She earned the moniker "Hanoi Jane" in 1971 at the height
of the Vietnam War, when she traveled to North Vietnam,
donned a Communist military uniform and pretended to shoot
down U.S. pilots while manning an anti-aircraft gun in
Hanoi.
Frankly, once read in context, I imagine many people would agree with
her actual quoted remarks.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"I have never met anyone in Ireland who understood the Irish Question,
except one Englishman who had only been there a week." - Keith Fraser
MP, House of Commons, May 1920
Virgil R. McElvy
over southeast asia (remember the killing fields). Money and influence does not exactly
mean one knows what they are talking about. It only means you have the money to by pr to
promote your idea.
Lord Jubjub
Doug Browning <doug...@escape.ca> wrote:
She didn't use the words "Americans must". I think she used the words
"We must", instead.
--
Lord Jubjub
Ruler of the Jabberwocky, Guardian of the Wabe, Prince of the Slithy Toves,
Leader of the raths, Keeper of the Bandersnatch
Bob
Don Thompson wrote:
> It is an indication that the scribe has added words to make the meaning
> clear.
>
> Note: a.w.v readers generally don't give a shit what "news" the bitch
> makes.
>
> --
> Don Thompson
>
Please define a.w.v. Those initials do not fit any of the ngs listed on the
address information.
Thanks
Bob
Mark Stringer
> "I would think that if you understood what communism was you would
> hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become
> communists." - Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in
> Detroit Free Press of November 22, 1970.
makes perfect sense. Then again, someone who can extol the communist
lifestyle while living a life full of capitalism and conspicuous
consumption doesn't have any credibility to begin with. The best thing
I can say about JF is she's a kook and a fraud.
Speedbyrd
She still has that right. Right or wrong.
The SpeedbyrdŽ
Speedbyrd
Not to mention, a pretty good actress.
The Speedbyrd®
doug
<<Please don't start with the sappy
patriotism. It's not a good time for that.>>
Not a good time for sappy patriotism, huh? Wow, you're really out of touch.
What are your thoughts on all the "mushy funerals" and the "heroic blah blah
blah" everywhere? You must be out of your mind with "wishy washy
indifference" to it all.
Do let us know when it is a good time so I can put the American Flag back on
my mailbox.
"Speedbyrd" <spee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dblprtk47mc2t51nm...@4ax.com...
Richard Rongstad
>
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:42:32 -0400, "doug" <dou...@charter.com> wrote:
>
> >Boy, this dame really knows when to quit while she's ahead, huh? Here's a
> >great idea Jane:
> >
> >"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE." You shouldn't even comment on a fight
> >between two kids at a playground.
> >
> >Your out of touch, you don't get it and looks like you never will. So once
> >again, when you feel like you want to comment on war or political unrest
> >just:
> >"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE."
> >
> >
> >
> She has a right to her opinion just as we all do. Please don't start with the sappy
> patriotism. It's not a good time for that.
Just so's I don't make a mistake and do some "sappy patriotism" in
front of the whole newsgroup, will someone please 'splain to me
what is the difference between "sappy patriotism" and regular
plain old patriotism?
Norman Wilner
news:3BBD23BB...@vikingphoenix.com...
I suspect the difference is when you attempt to suppress someone else's
right to freedom of expression, in the process of expressing yourself.
The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an unpopular
opinion. I might not agree with it, but I'd fight to the death to defend her
right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
Norm "Ask that Voltaire guy" Wilner
MetroToday / Starweek Magazine
http://www.zap2it.com/movies/videodvd
Nigel Brooks
"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote in message
news:Flbv7.140730$sM1.38...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an unpopular
> opinion. I might not agree with it, but I'd fight to the death to defend
her
> right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
Now come on Norm, be real.
There are very few people in this world who would "fight to the death" to
defend the freedom of speech. It just aint that important.
Now I would "fight to the death" to defend the people I love, and myself.
But Jane's right to spout unpopular bullshit? You gotta be kidding.
Nigel Brooks
Richard Rongstad
>
[snip]
> >>
> >> Also:
> >> "I would think that if you understood what communism was you would hope,
> >> you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists."
> >> - Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in Detroit Free Press
> >> of November 22, 1970.
> >> Source: - http://vikingphoenix.com/news/quotes.htm#media
> >>
> >> Jane Fonda Files
> >> http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/JaneFonda.htm
> >
>
> She still has that right. Right or wrong.
It's funny how defending Fonda so often comes down to saying she has
the right to say what she wants to say.
Hell! We all know that!
As a matter of fact, the more the highly quotable Fonda says, and
the more of what she says and does gets into print, the better I like
it.
E.g., “I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in
an anti-aircraft carrier...” Oprah Winfrey interview of Jane
Fonda in The Oprah Magazine.
The only way Fonda can improve her position is to shut her pie hole
as 'doug' said; and I don't think she ever will. There's always
a Barbara Walters or Oprah Winfrey waiting breathlessly to repeat
Fonda's every word and Fonda knows it, she can't quit.
> The Speedbyrd®
Norman Wilner
news:_qbv7.2502$oL3....@eagle.america.net...
It's not her specific right to that specific opinion, obviously, but the
concept of intellectual freedom, and freedom of expression. Those are things
are worth dying for, even if the result is an occasional spurt of annoying
blather from self-involved media personalities.
My point was that restricting the right to free expression to the people
with whom you already agree is a bad thing.
Norm Wilner
Nigel Brooks
"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote in message
I have no problem with an individuals right to express whatever opinion they
have no matter how objectionable it is. But worth dying for? I don't think
so.
But, I cannot think of one instance where anyone has ever placed their life
on the line to defend that right. And I cannot think of one instance where
that would ever happen.
Wars are fought for greater purpose. While the outcome of war, might very
well be that freedom of speech is continued, that is never the reason for
the conflict.
Nigel Brooks
Richard Rongstad
>
> "Richard Rongstad" <rong...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
> news:3BBD23BB...@vikingphoenix.com...
> > Speedbyrd wrote:
> >> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:42:32 -0400, "doug" <dou...@charter.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Boy, this dame really knows when to quit while she's ahead,
> >>> huh? Here's a great idea Jane:
> >>
> >>> "SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE." You shouldn't even comment
> >>> on a fight between two kids at a playground.
> >>>
> >>> Your out of touch, you don't get it and looks like you never will.
> >>> So once again, when you feel like you want to comment on war
> >>> or political unrest just: "SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> She has a right to her opinion just as we all do. Please don't
> >> start with the sappy patriotism. It's not a good time for that.
> >
> > Just so's I don't make a mistake and do some "sappy
> > patriotism" in front of the whole newsgroup, will someone
> > please 'splain to me what is the difference between "sappy
> > patriotism" and regular plain old patriotism?
>
> I suspect the difference is when you attempt to suppress someone else's
> right to freedom of expression, in the process of expressing yourself.
So, if I let you suppress my right to free expression, then I've made
you into a sappy patriot?
> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an unpopular
> opinion. I might not agree with it, but I'd fight to the death to defend her
> right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
Since you're still around, I guess you and Fonda's rights haven't faced
any serious threats.
Norman Wilner
> Norman Wilner wrote:
>> "Richard Rongstad" <rong...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
>> news:3BBD23BB...@vikingphoenix.com...
>>> Speedbyrd wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:42:32 -0400, "doug" <dou...@charter.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Boy, this dame really knows when to quit while she's ahead,
>>>>> huh? Here's a great idea Jane:
>>>>
>>>>> "SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE." You shouldn't even comment
>>>>> on a fight between two kids at a playground.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your out of touch, you don't get it and looks like you never will.
>>>>> So once again, when you feel like you want to comment on war
>>>>> or political unrest just: "SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> She has a right to her opinion just as we all do. Please don't
>>>> start with the sappy patriotism. It's not a good time for that.
>>>
>>> Just so's I don't make a mistake and do some "sappy
>>> patriotism" in front of the whole newsgroup, will someone
>>> please 'splain to me what is the difference between "sappy
>>> patriotism" and regular plain old patriotism?
>>
>> I suspect the difference is when you attempt to suppress
>> someone else's right to freedom of expression, in the
>> process of expressing yourself.
>
> So, if I let you suppress my right to free expression, then I've
> made you into a sappy patriot?
I don't think that's possible. I'm not trying to suppress anything, or
anyone -- I'm simply defining the terms. Free speech doesn't mean
unchallenged speech.
>> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an
>> unpopular opinion. I might not agree with it, but I'd fight to the
>> death to defend her right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
>
> Since you're still around, I guess you and Fonda's rights haven't
> faced any serious threats.
Maybe I've won.
Norm Wilner
Speedbyrd
>Speedbyrd wrote:
>
><<Please don't start with the sappy
> patriotism. It's not a good time for that.>>
>
>Not a good time for sappy patriotism, huh? Wow, you're really out of touch.
>What are your thoughts on all the "mushy funerals" and the "heroic blah blah
>blah" everywhere? You must be out of your mind with "wishy washy
>indifference" to it all.
>
>Do let us know when it is a good time so I can put the American Flag back on
>my mailbox.
I'm referring to those who are looking for a scapegoat in Jane Fonda because of an indiscretion
30 years ago. I've seen many of you running down this country and it's government, but now,
after you find we're not invincible after all, you decide to fly the flag and hang Fonda in
effigy. That's pathetic.
Speedbyrd
That's exactly it, Norm. I'm just not always as diplomatic as you and that's why I'm grateful
you're here.
I never said I agreed with Jane's views, though I didn't hear the entire interview. We were
told of one partial phrase and that's hardly conclusive on what she feels about it.
Speedbyrd
No, he's not. And if it weren't for those who feel as Norm does, you might be goosestepping
now and praising the Fuehrer for all his wonderful deeds and for being our 'saviour'.
When the free speech stops, the other freedoms drop one by one.
Speedbyrd
You obviously don't know much about our history. Along with freedom of speech, we also have
the right to be ignorant and stupid.
Speedbyrd
>Speedbyrd wrote:
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>> >>
>> >> Also:
>> >> "I would think that if you understood what communism was you would hope,
>> >> you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists."
>> >> - Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in Detroit Free Press
>> >> of November 22, 1970.
>> >> Source: - http://vikingphoenix.com/news/quotes.htm#media
>> >>
>> >> Jane Fonda Files
>> >> http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/JaneFonda.htm
>> >
>>
>> She still has that right. Right or wrong.
>
>It's funny how defending Fonda so often comes down to saying she has
>the right to say what she wants to say.
>
>Hell! We all know that!
>
then why was it brought up?
The Speedbyrd®
Speedbyrd
and that's what is important. that rights don't face serious threats.
Don Thompson
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:20:55 -0500, "Nigel Brooks"
<nbroo...@nospammsn.com> wrote:
> >
> >Now I would "fight to the death" to defend the people I love, and myself.
> >But Jane's right to spout unpopular bullshit? You gotta be kidding.
> >
> >Nigel Brooks
> >
>
>
> No, he's not. And if it weren't for those who feel as Norm does, you
might be goosestepping
> now and praising the Fuehrer for all his wonderful deeds and for being our
'saviour'.
>
Can you read? Can you read the list of groups that are being posted to? One
of those groups has a hell of a lot more intimate knowledge of Hanoi Jane
than ANY of the others. And you just farted in the face of a Viet Nam vet.
Goosestepping my aching ass.
--
Don Thompson
Another Thompson Scion
Don Thompson
You are obviously incapable of rational thought. Read the damn post, absorb
what it says, and only then engage your jackrabbit mouth.
Speedbyrd
there's nothing I like doing better than farting in the face of vets who use their
participation in a worthless war to gain sympathy for themselves and put down others.
That shit was 30 years ago. A great man once said, "he who is without sin among you, cast the
first stone." So here's a big raspberry out of my ass for ya!
TTTTTHHHHHHHWWWWWWTTTTTTTT!!!!!!
mack
hate to appear out of no where but . . .
---> You can always tell the weakness of a person's arguement the more hot
headed they get. ie telling people to shut their "PIE HOLE" and
"jackrabbit mouth".
Doctor mack says It's a sign of a poor argument and an
underdeveloped sense of reasoning (no offense intended).
Speedbyrd
shut the fuck up you whimpering douchebag. what I said still stands.
I defend Jane's right to be right or wrong and the same for all of you, so get off your
self-righteous highhorse and please don't bring up 'the good ole' days' again. You were stupid
for going.
Richard Rongstad
>
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:48:06 -0500, "Nigel Brooks" <nbroo...@nospammsn.com> wrote:
>
>Along with freedom of speech, we also have the right to be ignorant and stupid.
Your passport to safety.
>
> The Speedbyrd®
Richard Rongstad
ROFLMAO.
Yes. Why did you bring it up?
> The Speedbyrd®
Richard Rongstad
>
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:53:40 -0400, "doug" <dou...@charter.com> wrote:
>
> >Speedbyrd wrote:
> >
> ><<Please don't start with the sappy
> > patriotism. It's not a good time for that.>>
> >
> >Not a good time for sappy patriotism, huh? Wow, you're really out of touch.
> >What are your thoughts on all the "mushy funerals" and the "heroic blah blah
> >blah" everywhere? You must be out of your mind with "wishy washy
> >indifference" to it all.
> >
> >Do let us know when it is a good time so I can put the American Flag back on
> >my mailbox.
>
> I'm referring to those who are looking for a scapegoat in Jane Fonda because of an indiscretion
> 30 years ago. I've seen many of you running down this country and it's government, but now,
> after you find we're not invincible after all, you decide to fly the flag and hang Fonda in
> effigy. That's pathetic.
Whatinhell are you talking about?
I don't know of anybody that wants to scapegoat Jane Fonda.
Oh sure. Maybe some people in Montana and New Mexico.
I surely don't.
What Fonda did was not just "an indiscretion", it was a series
of actions and statements that amounted to subversion and perhaps
treason.
Name the ones you've seen running down this country and it's government.
I'd never hang Fonda in effigy, but I have a small confession to make.
I have a Jane Fonda doll sitting next to my Joseph Ellis doll and
a new box of pins. Will you send my your photo so I can make another
doll? I use my Jane Fonda doll year in and year out, before, during
and after terrorist attacks and elections of Slick Willies.
Am I bad?
So, I guess you weren't referring to me. Whew! I thought there for
a few minutes I was going to be a sappy patriot.
David McKay
> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an unpopular
> opinion. I might not agree with it, but I'd fight to the death to defend
her
> right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
>
> Norm "Ask that Voltaire guy" Wilner
Norm, that was Voltaire's biographer. Found that out here.
--
David McKay
Bob
Norman Wilner wrote:
The problem with Fonda was never her opinions nor her expressions of them. It
was giving aid and comfort to people killing American soldiers and torturing
American P.O.W.s that was the problem.
If all she had ever done was to lead campaigns within the US stating that
America was a dirty SOB Aggressor nation killing babies for the fun of it, the
public would have accepted her back long, long ago.
Bob
Bob
Nigel Brooks wrote:
Nigel
You are so wrong about that it is incredible.
Bob
Bob
Speedbyrd wrote:
Speed, you just showed that on THIS subject, you are utterly out of touch.
Bob
V-Man
Yes. Summer soldiers adn sunshine patriots are usually very vocal with their
speech and insistent that they get *their* freedoms, but most often they seek
to deny others what they have a right to.
>A woman who should have been brought up for treason should
>probably quit while she is ahead
I don't like Jane Fonda. I actively dislike her. I find her politics naive
at best, misguided and childish at worst.
But since when is exercising your freedom of sppech treason? You don't like
what she did, fine, but don't rip up the Consitution that you hold so dear for
it. the worst thing Fonda did was violate Department of State restrictions on
Foreign Travel, which is *NOT*, under the Law of the United States, a chargable
offense.
Wish you were here! V-Man
<*> A Knight is sworn to Valor, His Heart knows only Virtue
=/\= His Blade defends the Weak, His Word speaks only Truth
(-o-) His Wrath undoes the Wicked
Bob
Speedbyrd wrote:
>
> I'm referring to those who are looking for a scapegoat in Jane Fonda because of an indiscretion
> 30 years ago.
Indiscretion? You think that's all it was? IF there had been a declared war she could have been
hung for it. Indiscretion? Cheering on people who were killing American GI's, and torturing
American POWs. Indiscretion.
Based on that, the WTC on 9/11/01 is a "stubbed toe"
> I've seen many of you running down this country and it's government, but now,
> after you find we're not invincible after all, you decide to fly the flag and hang Fonda in
> effigy. That's pathetic.
But you have not heard that from me, ever, and we have been talking on the ngs for several years
now.
Speed, on this one, I think you are way, way off base.
Bob
>
>
> >
> >
V-Man
Of the kind that uses the Constitution for illegal ends? yes, that is always
inappropriate. I served my country, in the Infantry, and I'll be dammed to see
anyone, Jane Fonda included, deprived of her freedom of sppech just becuase you
disagree with her.
V-Man
>after you find we're not invincible after all, you decide to fly the flag and
>hang Fonda in
>effigy. That's pathetic.
Worse, it's hypocrisy. They use their freedom of speech to say that her use
of the same was treason.
V-Man
>of those groups has a hell of a lot more intimate knowledge of Hanoi Jane
>than ANY of the others. And you just farted in the face of a Viet Nam vet.
>
> Goosestepping my aching ass.
Since you are also crossposting, I'd like to ask, via email and in
alt.quotations, since I'm not in the VN groups, do Viet Vets somehow have the
right to change the Constitution to what they want it to be? I don't like jane
F, I actually despise her.
But I'd NEVER, no matter how arrogant, offensive, or misguided her remarks,
try to feny her the Constitutionally guarnateed Right to Freedom of Speech.
Maybe Viet Vets want to, but as a peacetime grunt, I'd rather let her beheard.
It proves that the system works.
I'm not saying you have to like her, but the asshole that wants to take away
her right to free speech is my enemy. And I'm proud to say it.
Bob
Speedbyrd wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:47:40 -0700, Mark Stringer <ui...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
>
> >Jane Fonda Files wrote:
> >> "I would think that if you understood what communism was you would
> >> hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become
> >> communists." - Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in
> >> Detroit Free Press of November 22, 1970.
> > Praying to become a communist? I guess in Jane's world, that statement
> >makes perfect sense. Then again, someone who can extol the communist
> >lifestyle while living a life full of capitalism and conspicuous
> >consumption doesn't have any credibility to begin with. The best thing
> >I can say about JF is she's a kook and a fraud.
>
> Not to mention, a pretty good actress.
>
> The Speedbyrd®
>
No Speed, she is one hell of a good actress. As a person I find her disgusting.
I will not watch her films. I will not listen to her talks. If she came into a
restaurant where I was, I would spit upon her before I left the place. I find her
to be a spoiled child of privilege, who has never had a money problem in her life,
who has never truly had to struggle for anything. She is a person who has cursed
and degraded the nation which gave her so much.
I utterly despise her.
But yes, no doubt, she is one hell of a fine actress.
If she were even 1% as good a person and as good an American as she is an actress,
she would not be considered such a traitor, and there are one hell of a lot of
Americans who consider her as unacceptable within hearing range.
I, obviously, am one of them.
I am not a 'Nam vet. But I have some friends names on a wall in Washington D.C.
Bob
V-Man
>was giving aid and comfort to people killing American soldiers and torturing
>American P.O.W.s that was the problem.
Oh, she had a trial? there was a grand jury? get over it. She went to a
foriegn land, and did things that were questionable. But if she broke the law,
prove it.
Stop treading all over the Constitution in groups you aren't even subscribed
to.
>If all she had ever done was to lead campaigns within the US stating that
>America was a dirty SOB Aggressor nation killing babies for the fun of it,
>the
>public would have accepted her back long, long ago.
Bullshit. She lent her name to a cause that was wrong. Period.
V-Man
>
Not really. Lee Marvin was better.
Doug Reese
dre...@erols.com to spee...@erols.com.
Yeah, sounds good. At least something worthwhile came out of this thread.
Speedbyrd
Formerly known as Doug
AirForce96
"Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech."
--M.T. Tupper
"It is difficult to keep quiet when you have nothing to do."
--Arthur Schopenhauer
The comment about keeping her mouth shut was advice, not an attempt to restrain
her speech. No one said to tape her mouth shut, it was suggested that she
should tape her own mouth.
AirForce96
--Francis Bacon
The worst thing she did was get our POW's beat half to death as a result or her
visit to Hanoi(which was a result of her giving intelligence to the enemy),
endeavoured to support the war efforts of the enemy(support and aided their
propaganda effort), actually man an anti-aircraft gun(which even in jest she
picked up a weapon that was used against the US military fighting forces), and
the list is tremendous. Her actions were not a simple visit to N.V. because
what she did there actually were acts that injured, bodily, American fighting
forces. She might as well have beat the POW's herself.
doug
patriotic my whole life, never thought we were invincible and had nothing
to say about Jane Fonda until she opened her mouth on subject she's already
butchered. I have no interest in making her a scapegoat. Afterall, she
does a great job making an ass of herself without any help at all. Her so
called "indiscretion" 30 years ago was a knife through the heart of American
soldiers back then and today. Whether she's sorry for it or not, in my
opinion (which I'm entitled to), she has lost all credibility on these
matters and should remain silent for the good of the country. However,
because she's a self important celebrity, she feels automatically entitled
and obligated to lead us down the "right" path. She want's us to try to
understand terrorism and their motives. The terrorist don't want us to
understand anything, they just want us to die. This is a holy war to them.
Even if she wanted to she couldn't negotiate with them. First of all she's a
woman, she's educated and they probably have a copy of "Barbarella" which
would put her at the top of their devil list.
I feel most Americans are not interested simply in revenge as she states.
Most Americans want to end terrorism. Most Americans don't want to bomb
indiscriminantly and kill innocent people and neither does our government.
However we need to fight for freedom and help others fight for theirs.
There is no easy way to do that and Jane Fonda isn't helping at all.
Speedbyrd's definition of "indiscretion":
...at the height of the Vietnam War, when she traveled to North Vietnam,
donned a Communist military uniform and pretended to shoot down U.S. pilots
while manning an anti-aircraft gun in Hanoi.
By the way Jane, how did you come up with the sceen name "Speedbyrd."
"Speedbyrd" <spee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sbjqrt064upc727lm...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:53:40 -0400, "doug" <dou...@charter.com> wrote:
>
> >Speedbyrd wrote:
> >
> ><<Please don't start with the sappy
> > patriotism. It's not a good time for that.>>
> >
> >Not a good time for sappy patriotism, huh? Wow, you're really out of
touch.
> >What are your thoughts on all the "mushy funerals" and the "heroic blah
blah
> >blah" everywhere? You must be out of your mind with "wishy washy
> >indifference" to it all.
> >
> >Do let us know when it is a good time so I can put the American Flag back
on
> >my mailbox.
>
> I'm referring to those who are looking for a scapegoat in Jane Fonda
because of an indiscretion
> 30 years ago. I've seen many of you running down this country and it's
government, but now,
> after you find we're not invincible after all, you decide to fly the flag
and hang Fonda in
> effigy. That's pathetic.
>
>
>
> >
> >"Speedbyrd" <spee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:dblprtk47mc2t51nm...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:42:32 -0400, "doug" <dou...@charter.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Boy, this dame really knows when to quit while she's ahead, huh?
Here's
> >a
> >> >great idea Jane:
> >> >
> >> >"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE." You shouldn't even comment on a
fight
> >> >between two kids at a playground.
> >> >
> >> >Your out of touch, you don't get it and looks like you never will. So
> >once
> >> >again, when you feel like you want to comment on war or political
unrest
> >> >just:
> >> >"SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE."
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> She has a right to her opinion just as we all do. Please don't start
> >with the sappy
> >> patriotism. It's not a good time for that.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Jane Fonda Files" <Fonda...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:3BBC9555...@vikingphoenix.com...
> >> >> [Americans must] "try to understand the underlying causes" - Jane
Fonda
> >> >> - Sept. 20 on Mix 105.7 FM and WGST (Atlanta)
> >> >>
> >> >> Source for quote
> >> >> http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2001/9/22/115145
> >> >>
> >> >> Also:
> >> >> "I would think that if you understood what communism was you would
> >hope,
> >> >> you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become
communists."
> >> >> - Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in Detroit Free
> >Press
> >> >> of November 22, 1970.
> >> >> Source: - http://vikingphoenix.com/news/quotes.htm#media
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Jane Fonda Files
> >> >>
> >>
>
>>http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/Ja
n
> >e
> >> >Fonda.htm
> >> >
> >>
> >>
Donna L. Bridges
<trreo14...@corp.supernews.com> "doug" <dou...@charter.com>
wrote:
>You don't know me and have no idea what you're talking about. I've been
>patriotic my whole life, never thought we were invincible and had nothing
>to say about Jane Fonda until she opened her mouth on subject she's already
>butchered. I have no interest in making her a scapegoat. Afterall, she
[snip]
And, since this was cross-posted to a wide group many of us don't know
each other. With alt.quotations remaining in the mix in most of these
posts, I'd just point out that most of this discussion is off-topic
for AltQ once it no longer is about a quote or quotes & since they
don't even have ObQuotes added. Thanks & carry on.
Followups changed.
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to
give it to others." - William Allen White (1868-1944)
The Finagler
Jane Fonda has perhaps taken ill-advised stands on many subjects,
but she at least has had the b**** to put herself on the line.
It would have been so much easier for her to have walled herself
in with the tons of money she has accumulated fairly in the
American enterprise system. Or to voice her gripes from the
insular, cowardly world of cyberspace.
What has she done in her lifetime? She has most likely
accomplished more in her chosen career, acting, than any of her
armchair critics have in their respective fields. Many of her
movies are among my favorites and her peers have grudgingly
honored her for her numerous cinematic achievements.
The Finagler
ObQuote:
"Are you a wandering generality or a meaningful specific?"
~Zig Ziegler, motivation counselor and entrepreneur~
"It is easy to sit up and take notice.
What is difficult is getting up and taking action."
~ Al Batt ~
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments
of comfort and convenience,
but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
~ Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.~
"V-Man" <velo...@aol.com.CanDo> wrote in message
news:20011005082542...@mb-mh.aol.com...
doug
ROFLMAO right there with you!!!! Speedbyrd brought it up!!
"Richard Rongstad" <rong...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
news:3BBD4001...@vikingphoenix.com...
Speedbyrd
No, actually I'm very much IN touch.
Speedbyrd
I didn't bring it up. I never read or heard her interview. you are invited to check the
originating source on such threads rather than just assume that I started it.
Speedbyrd
I certainly did not.
Nigel Brooks
"Speedbyrd" <spee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:oijqrtoep03ugtflh...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:20:55 -0500, "Nigel Brooks"
<nbroo...@nospammsn.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >news:Flbv7.140730$sM1.38...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> >
> >> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an
unpopular
defend
> >her
> >> right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
> >
> >Now come on Norm, be real.
> >
> >There are very few people in this world who would "fight to the death" to
> >defend the freedom of speech. It just aint that important.
> >
> >But Jane's right to spout unpopular bullshit? You gotta be kidding.
> >
> >Nigel Brooks
> >
>
>
> No, he's not. And if it weren't for those who feel as Norm does, you
might be goosestepping
> now and praising the Fuehrer for all his wonderful deeds and for being our
'saviour'.
>
>
> The Speedbyrd®
>
> How's my posting?
> 1-800-eat-SHIT
What a pile of wank.
Words such as "I would fight to the death" are most frequently offered by
those who have the luxury of sitting on their arses at home, while others
"fight to the death" on their behalf.
In other words, put your money where your mouth is, and be the first at bat.
Nigel Brooks
Speedbyrd
It's not a crime to be rich and successful. whatever she is, she still falls under the rights
of this nation. She calls them as she sees them. She made a mistake about 'nam which she's
apologized for many times. Let's not drag her over the coals again.
Your statement about spitting on her makes you lower than you think she is. Besides which,
you'd end up on the short end of that stick as well.
Nigel Brooks
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:33:59 -0600, "Don Thompson"
<flas...@ix.netcom.comghost> wrote:
>
> >news:oijqrtoep03ugtflh...@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:20:55 -0500, "Nigel Brooks"
> ><nbroo...@nospammsn.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Now I would "fight to the death" to defend the people I love, and
myself.
> >> >But Jane's right to spout unpopular bullshit? You gotta be kidding.
> >> >
> >> >Nigel Brooks
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> No, he's not. And if it weren't for those who feel as Norm does, you
> >might be goosestepping
> >> now and praising the Fuehrer for all his wonderful deeds and for being
our
> >'saviour'.
> >>
> >
One
> >of those groups has a hell of a lot more intimate knowledge of Hanoi Jane
> >than ANY of the others. And you just farted in the face of a Viet Nam
vet.
> >
> > Goosestepping my aching ass.
>
>
> there's nothing I like doing better than farting in the face of vets who
use their
> participation in a worthless war to gain sympathy for themselves and put
down others.
> That shit was 30 years ago. A great man once said, "he who is without sin
among you, cast the
> first stone." So here's a big raspberry out of my ass for ya!
> TTTTTHHHHHHHWWWWWWTTTTTTTT!!!!!!
>
>
> How's my posting?
> 1-800-eat-SHIT
Well I guess one thing the internet does is to allow the meek to become the
mighty, the mouse to become a lion, and arseholes to remain arseholes.
Pick one, or all of the above to describe yourself
Nigel Brooks
Nigel Brooks
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001 00:48:06 -0500, "Nigel Brooks"
<nbroo...@nospammsn.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote in message
> >> "Nigel Brooks" <nbroo...@nospammsn.com> wrote in message
> >> news:_qbv7.2502$oL3....@eagle.america.net...
> >> > "Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote in message
> >> > news:Flbv7.140730$sM1.38...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> >> >
> >> >> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an
> >> >> death to defend her right to say it. That's the key to a free
society.
> >> >
> >> > Now come on Norm, be real.
> >> >
death"
> >> > to defend the freedom of speech. It just aint that important.
> >> >
> >> > Now I would "fight to the death" to defend the people I love, and
> >> > myself. But Jane's right to spout unpopular bullshit? You gotta
> >> > be kidding.
> >>
the
> >> concept of intellectual freedom, and freedom of expression. Those are
> >things
> >> are worth dying for, even if the result is an occasional spurt of
annoying
> >> blather from self-involved media personalities.
> >>
> >> My point was that restricting the right to free expression to the
people
> >> with whom you already agree is a bad thing.
> >>
> >> Norm Wilner
> >> MetroToday / Starweek Magazine
> >> http://www.zap2it.com/movies/videodvd
> >
> >I have no problem with an individuals right to express whatever opinion
they
> >have no matter how objectionable it is. But worth dying for? I don't
think
> >so.
> >
> >But, I cannot think of one instance where anyone has ever placed their
life
> >on the line to defend that right. And I cannot think of one instance
where
> >that would ever happen.
> >
> >Wars are fought for greater purpose. While the outcome of war, might
very
> >well be that freedom of speech is continued, that is never the reason for
> >the conflict.
> >
> >Nigel Brooks
> >
>
>
> You obviously don't know much about our history. Along with freedom of
speech, we also have
> the right to be ignorant and stupid.
>
> The Speedbyrd®
>
> How's my posting?
> 1-800-eat-SHIT
That is exceedingly obvious from your postings mate
Nigel Brooks
Speedbyrd
The 'knife through the heart of America' was orchestrated by our very own government, not by
Jane Fonda. We were not invited there, we had no business being there, we were not wanted
there. I certainly do regret the many wasted lives for such a wasted cause. I understand how
she felt. She went about it all wrong, but I feel Nam was the most pathetic use of our forces
in all our history. The saddest part being, we slunk out like whimpering dogs and they were no
better off than before we came. Don't get me started on this! Your problem isn't with Jane
Fonda here!
Norman Wilner
news:GIgv7.481$hO3....@ozemail.com.au...
>
>
>> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold
>> an unpopular opinion. I might not agree with it, but I'd fight
>> to the death to defend her right to say it. That's the key to
>> a free society.
>>
>
> Norm, that was Voltaire's biographer. Found that out here.
Really? I had no idea.
Grace McGarvie
AirForce96 wrote:
> Sappy patriotism? A woman who should have been brought up for treason should
> probably quit while she is ahead.
I suggest you go read the Constitution for the definition of treason, then read
the first ammendment - then think what America is all about - Freedom
The First Amendment is often inconvenient. But that is besides the point.
Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its obligation to tolerate
speech. Anthony Kennedy
We must remember the First Amendment which protects any shrill jackass no matter
how self-seeking. F. G. Withington
We are a rebellious nation. Our whole history is treason; our blood was attained
before we were born; our creeds were infidelity to the mother church; our
constitution treason to our fatherland. Theodore Parker
-- Proverbs:Laughter is the best medicine. Everybody laughs in the same
language. Laugh and the world laughs with you; weep, and you weep alone. He who
laughs last, laughs best. In the beginning God made a man and a woman and set
them on earth. Then the man and woman looked at each other and burst out
laughing.(African) That day is lost on which one has not laughed.(French) Those
who tickle themselves may laugh when they please.(German) Time spent laughing is
time spent with the gods.(Japanese) When the mouse laughs at the cat there is a
hole nearby. (Nigerian) What soap is to the body, laughter is to the soul.
(Yiddish)
Silo Dave
You and Jane sure didn't leave anything for the rest of us.
"Speedbyrd" <spee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7mjqrtg5igujtr5g7...@4ax.com...
snipped
> You obviously don't know much about our history. Along with freedom of
speech, we also have
> the right to be ignorant and stupid.
>
Bob
Nigel Brooks wrote:
Anybody who has served in the US Military has done exactly that. Whether they
were in combat or not. You enter the service, and you're ass is on the line the
entire time. Whether or not you go into battle/war is the roll of the dice at
the time, and you have NO control over world events. But you know that you are
there to fight, and die, if necessary, while you are in the service.
Bob
V-Man
>her
>visit to Hanoi(which was a result of her giving intelligence to the enemy),
This is a fraud. This never occurred. It is the reult of the un-mitigated
hate that Viet Vets have for JF, not a result of her actions. See Below for
proof.
From Urban Legends.com
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa110399.htm
<excerpt>
Apparently bits and pieces of these texts, along with a few shameless
fabrications, were cobbled together by persons unknown to create the "Hanoi
Jane" diatribe which still circulates today. Parts of it are true and parts of
it are false.
Though we don't know precisely when
versions of the "Hanoi Jane" email first began making the rounds (presumably
among veterans and military personnel), they found their way into general
circulation in early September 1999. Each of the versions I've seen exhibits
slight variations in format and wording, and in some cases added comments
and/or deletions.
Jon E. Dougherty, a columnist for WorldNetDaily.com, saw fit to quote a
version of the message verbatim in his September 15, 1999 column entitled "Not
saluting Jane Fonda."
Interestingly, Dougherty's piece, complete with his own commentary, was
copied and distributed by readers and quickly established itself as an
additional popular variant of the already-circulating text. [Update: Mr.
Dougherty published a correction on Nov. 10, 1999, acknowledging that parts of
the text are false.]
Below is a representative example of the email. Bear in mind that only
part of what you're about to read is true (see next page for analysis).
Looks like Hanoi Jane may be
honored as of the "100 Women of the Century".
JANE FONDA remembered? Unfortunately many
have forgotten and still countless others have never
known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea
of our "country" but the men who served and
sacrificed during Viet Nam.
There are few things I have strong visceral
reactions to, but Jane Fonda's participation in
what I believe to be blatant treason, is one of
them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure
to those who suffered her attentions. The first
part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's
name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the
Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a
former POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton".
Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell,
cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was
ordered to describe for a visiting American
"Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane
treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda,
was clubbed, and dragged away. During the
subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp
Commandant's feet, accidentally pulling the man's
shoe off- which sent that officer berserk.
In '78, the AF Col still suffered from double
vision (which permanently ended his flying days)
from the Vietnamese Col's frenzied application of
a wooden baton.
From 1983-85, Col Larry Carrigan was the
347FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6 years in the
"Hilton" - the first three of which he was
"missing in action". His wife lived on faith that
he was still alive.
His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed
routine in preparation for a "peace delegation"
visit. They, however, had time and devised a plan
to get word to the world that they still survived.
Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with
his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand.
When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a
cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each
man's hand and asking little encouraging
snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed
babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane
treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing
this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their
sliver of paper.
She took them all without missing a beat. At
the end of the line and once the camera stopped
rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs,
she turned to the officer in charge... and handed
him the little pile.
Three men died from the subsequent
beatings. Col Carrigan was almost number four.
For years after their release, a group of
determined former POWs, including Col Carrigan,
tried to bring Ms. Fonda and others up on charges
of treason. I don't know that they used it, but the
charge of "Negligent Homicide due to Depraved
Indifference" would also seem appropriate. Her
obvious "granting of aid and comfort to the enemy",
alone, should've been sufficient for the treason
count.
However, to date, Jane Fonda has never been
formally charged with anything and continues to
enjoy the privileged life of the rich and famous.
I, personally, think that this is shame on us,
the American Citizenry.
Part of our shortfall is ignorance: most don't
know such actions ever took place. Thought you
might appreciate the knowledge. Most of you've
probably already seen this by now... only
addition I might add to these sentiments is to
remember the satisfaction of relieving myself
into the urinal at some airbase or another where
"zaps" of Hanoi Jane's face had been applied.
To whom it may concern:
I was a civilian economic development advisor in
Viet Nam, and was captured by the North
Vietnamese communists in South Viet Nam in
1968, and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months
in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in
Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi.
My North Vietnamese captors deliberately
poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a
nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South
Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the
Cambodian border.
At one time, I was weighing approximately
90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were
Jane Fonda's "war criminals."
When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was
asked by the camp communist political officer
if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I
said yes, for I would like to tell her about the
real treatment we POWs were receiving, which
was far different from the treatment purported
by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by
Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient."
Because of this, I spent three days on a
rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms
with a piece of steel placed on my hands, and
beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms
dipped.
I had the opportunity to meet with Jane
Fonda for a couple of hours after I was
released. I asked her if she would be willing
to debate me on TV. She did not answer me,
her former husband, Tom Hayden, answered
for her. She was mind controlled by her
husband. This does not exemplify someone
who should be honored as "100 Years of Great
Women."
After I was released, I was asked what I
thought of Jane Fonda and the anti- war
movement. I said that I held Joan Baez's
husband in very high regard, for he thought
the war was wrong, burned his draft card
and went to prison in protest. If the other
anti-war protesters took this same route,
it would have brought our judicial system
to a halt and ended the war much earlier,
and there wouldn't be as many on that
somber black granite wall called the
Vietnam Memorial. This is democracy. This
is the American way.
Jane Fonda, on the other hand, chose to be a
traitor, and went to Hanoi, wore their uniform,
propagandized for the communists, and urged
American soldiers to desert. As we were being
tortured, and some of the POWs murdered, she
called us liars. After her heroes -- the North
Vietnamese communists -- took over South
Vietnam, they systematically murdered 80,000
South Vietnamese political prisoners. May their
souls rest on her head forever. Shame! Shame!
( History is a heavy sword in the hands of those
who refuse to forget it. Think of this the next
time you see Ms. Fonda- Turner at a Braves
game).
<Snip for brevity - BTW - for those of us that *know* history, AF96, folks
lke you are a pretty big burden>
There's no disputing that Jane Fonda toured North Vietnam, propagandized
on behalf of the communists, and participated in an orchestrated "press
conference" with American POWs in 1972. There's no denying that she defamed
POWs by whitewashing the Viet Cong's treatment of them and later calling them
liars when they spoke out.
But how true are the further allegations in the current email rumors?
Let's examine their veracity point by point, beginning with the most serious:
Claim: Fonda betrayed POWs by turning over slips of paper they gave her to
their captors. POWs were beaten and died as a result.
Status: FALSE.
"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry
Carrigan, who was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967. He has no idea why the
story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda," he told me. It goes
without saying he never handed her a secret message.
He confessed that he did see Fonda once while he was a POW – on film.
He recalled a night when he and the rest of the 80 or so men he was
interned with were called out into the prison courtyard, "the first time we'd
been outside under the stars in 5 or 6 years." As they all stood there
wondering what was in store for them, a projector started whirring in the
background. Their captors proceeded to show them footage of Jane Fonda's visit
to Hanoi.
Claim: A POW spit at Fonda, for which he was brutally beaten.
Status: FALSE.
This story is attributed in the email to former Air Force pilot Jerry
Driscoll, who says it's false and did not originate from him. I wasn't able to
speak with Driscoll directly, but Mike McGrath and Paul Galanti, fellow
officers of the Nam-POWs organization to which Driscoll belongs, told me he
unequivocally disavows the story.
[Update: after this commentary was written I received personal
confirmation from Jerry Driscoll that the story is bogus – as he put it, "the
product of a very vivid imagination."]
Mike McGrath, currently serving as the president of Nam-POWs, has been
trying for more than a month to help Driscoll and Carrigan squelch the false
rumors circulating under their names.
"They would like to get their names removed but the story seems to have a
life of its own," he told me. "There are a lot of folks out there who would
love to have a story like that to hang their hat and their hate on."
Claim: POWs were beaten for refusing to cooperate or meet with Fonda
during her visit.
Status: TRUE.
The final anecdote in the "Hanoi Jane" message recounts the experience of
a POW who agreed to meet with Fonda but announced to his captors that he
planned on telling her how horrid conditions in North Vietnamese prison camps
really were.
"Because of this," the narrative continues, "I spent three days on a
rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel placed on
my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped."
Those words were written by Michael Benge, a civilian advisor captured by
the Viet Cong in 1968 and held as a POW for 5 years. When I contacted him, he
confirmed that the story was indeed his, and true.
Benge's original statement, entitled "Shame on Jane," was published in
April by the Advocacy and Intelligence Network for POWs and MIAs. The nameless,
faceless author of the "Hanoi Jane" message evidently picked it up from a Web
page or a newsgroup and combined it with fabricated stories to create the
forwarded text. Some versions now circulate with Benge's name appended, others
quote his statement anonymously.
A good cause is never well-served by lies, and that's how all of the
ex-POWs I spoke to or corresponded with about the falsehoods in this message
felt. Paul Galanti said: "None of us are members of the Jane Fonda Fan Club,
but these fabrications are something she just did not do."
No one had an answer to the question "Who made up these stories and
why?" but both Carrigan and McGrath expressed doubt that it was a POW.
"She did enough to place her name in the trash bin of history," McGrath
explained. "None of us need to make up stories on her."
Jane Fonda could not be reached for comment.
SO QUIT FIDDLING WITH MY HISTORY! IF YOU ARE GONNA SPREAD LIES, I'M GONNA
SHOW YOU TO BE A LIAR!!!!!
V-Man
Yes, actually, we were. Get your US History right.
>we had no business being there
Yes, we did. The North Vietnamese were murderous bastards bent on unifying
their nation whether the rest wanted to or not. Just like the Koreas. The UN
brokered a treaty that the North signed. The North then BROKE that treaty.
>we were not wanted
>there
Cetainly not by the North. But the People of the South knew what was going
to happen if the war was lost - look at the footage of the US Embassy on the
day that Saigon fell - those are people that knew that if they stayed, they'd
die.
>She went about it all wrong, but I feel Nam was the most pathetic use of our
>forces
>in all our history.
Then you don't know your US History.
>The saddest part being, we slunk out like whimpering dogs and they were no
>better off than before we came.
That was because Congress wanted us out. The people spoke through thier
representatives. And we left the South able to defend itself. You want to
start ranting, rant about the right thing!
Congress cut off supplies of munitions. Then, the South lost. FAST.
V-Man
>> >
>> >There are very few people in this world who would "fight to the death" to
>> >defend the freedom of speech. It just aint that important.
>> >
>> >Now I would "fight to the death" to defend the people I love, and myself.
>> >But Jane's right to spout unpopular bullshit? You gotta be kidding.
>What a pile of wank.
>
>Words such as "I would fight to the death" are most frequently offered by
>those who have the luxury of sitting on their arses at home, while others
>"fight to the death" on their behalf.
>
>In other words, put your money where your mouth is, and be the first at bat.
>
>
>Nigel Brooks
>
Well, Nigel, try this on for size. it's even a quote:
"Disguised as coal, food, & medicine, the Right to Vote, the Freedom to
Speak and numerous other Human Rights were heroically airlifted into Berlin."
While you don't think that there were people willing to fight for Freedom of
Speech (and I am one, btw...), there were tyrants unwilling to fight *us* to
end it.
HayJump
Well said. When the government jails you for speaking your mind (as it does in
Vietnam) or prosecutes you in a kangaroo court for hate crimes (as is done in
American universities), that's a violation of free speech. When your audience
disagrees with you and suggests you shouldn't be heeded and should stop
bleating, that's criticism. Too often, lefties claim those who dare question
their moral authority are enemies of free speech. But, as anyone who has been
in a lefty-controlled circumstance, they only believe their speech is free
speech. Any other speech gets worse than calls to "shut up."
During Fonda's Hanoi holiday trip, when an American POW secretly confided to
her and her entourage that the POWs were, contrary to the North Vietnamese
claims, being horribly tortured, they passed the name of that POW on to his
captors and he was severely beaten. To the world, the visitors reported that
the POWs were being kindly treated. Many American POWs died after years of
torture which Fonda helped conceal. The wearing of an enemy's uniform, the
gleeful clapping as she sat at the trigger of an anti-aircraft gun used to kill
Americans, and her propaganda broadcasts were treasonous, but her part in the
torture of helpless POWs was disgusting. It was cooperation in the commitment
of war crimes. No matter how you feel about the Vietnam War, even if you don't
think Fonda was a traitor, even if you think America commited war crimes, if
you truly don't like war crimes, you shouldn't approve of her acts. She should
have used her western right of free speech to condemn the torture.
She's made a few stilted, conciliatory gestures in the years since, while
amassing a great capitalist fortune, but has never apologized and never offered
an explanation of her part in hiding the torture.
OBQ
"She's a romantic pro-Leninist. Unfortunately she's lost her sense of humour.
One day I called her Jane of Arc. She didn't laugh at all."
Roger Vadim (1928- ), ex-husband
"If you're ever in a stituation where you're not getting served or you can't
get what you need, just cry." Jane Fonda (1937- ), on her technique for
getting service while visiting Russia.
"We were marching since we were babies and all we did was make Jane Fonda
famous."
Robert Patrick, Kennedy's Children, 1976
V-Man
>her and her entourage that the POWs were, contrary to the North Vietnamese
>claims, being horribly tortured, they passed the name of that POW on to his
>captors and he was severely beaten.
This is NOT TRUE. I have posted, to Alt.Quotations, the necessary links to
establish this.
Mark Stringer
> there's nothing I like doing better than farting in the face of vets
> who use their participation in a worthless war to gain sympathy for
> themselves and put down others. That shit was 30 years ago. A great
> man once said, "he who is without sin among you, cast the first stone."
> So here's a big raspberry out of my ass for ya!
> TTTTTHHHHHHHWWWWWWTTTTTTTT!!!!!!
same? Especially when you consider the person in question is a
traitor like Hanoi Jane who, amongst other things, supplied the real
names of some POWs. People paid a very dear price for that. I believe
she finally came out with a half-baked apology a few years ago which
proves how sincere she really is. She's not sorry for what she did,
she's just sorry she's still got the stink on her and will never get
it off. F Jane Fonda.
If vets are looking for anything from their participation in the war,
I doubt it's sympathy, it's probably a little recognition, respect and
understanding.
The war obviously wasn't a popular one but the blame for that doesn't
lie with the vets, it lies with those who sent them down there and
decided how it would be fought. Many people lost their lives, were
crippled or were scarred psychologically as a result of the war. That
isn't worthless to me and I doubt you're going to convince any vets it
was either.
How many vets do you think were enthusiastic about putting their lives
on the line? Whether they liked it or not, they answered the call.
That's something to be very proud of in my eyes.
Before every Remembrance Day you see the men in uniform holding their
donation tins or trays. I got into the practice of thanking them for
their service to the country when I donate. A little gesture, a little
recognition, a little respect. That's probably all any vet is looking
for.
Tom
> her right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
I don't think I could quite summon up the magnanimity to fight to the death
for Jane Fonda's right to say that, but I'm willing to defend her with an
ObQuote:
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most
of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that
oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the
beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
--H.L. Mencken
--Tom Parsons
--
-- Never part without loving words to think
t...@panix.com | of during your absence. It may be that
| you will not meet again in life.
http://www.panix.com/~twp | --Johann (Jean Paul) Richter
Tom
> Don Thompson wrote:
>> It is an indication that the scribe has added words to make the meaning
>> clear.
>>
>> Note: a.w.v readers generally don't give a shit what "news" the bitch
>> makes.
> Please define a.w.v. Those initials do not fit any of the ngs listed on the
> address information.
Some of the addresses elsewhere on this thread included alt.war.vietnam.
HayJump
torture during her 1972 visit, she certainly should have discovered that POWs
were being tortured after they started coming home. That she let her
statements that they had been treated well stand as truth makes her complicit
in those war crimes. She has a moral duty to retract those statements that the
passage of time hasn't diminished.
I find it incredible that she could have met with POWs and not suspected they
were being badly treated. It was a matter of great concern at the time and she
should have at least asked a few pointed questions of her hosts. Maybe she
should have asked to visit a POW compound after that anti-aircraft battery.
Her actions leave us with the question was she too stupid to know or did she
lie for propaganda purposes?
Give her the benefit of the doubt. Suppose she was just stupid. Then we'd be
stupid to let her words go unchallenged on any subject.
OBQ
"If a sufficient number of people who wanted to stop war really did gather
together, they would first of all begin by making war upon those who disagreed
with them. And it is still more certain that they would make war on people who
also want to stop wars but in another way." Georges Ivanovich Gurdjieff
(1873-1949), Armenian mystic
"If any man says he hates war more than I do, he better have a knife, that's
all I have to say."
Jack Handey (1949- )
Norman Wilner
>>
>> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to
>> hold an unpopular opinion. I might not agree with it, but
>> I'd fight to the death to defend her right to say it. That's
>> the key to a free society.
>
> I don't think I could quite summon up the magnanimity to
> fight to the death for Jane Fonda's right to say that, but I'm
> willing to defend her with an ObQuote:
>
> "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one
> spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it
> is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed,
> and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to
> be stopped at all."
> --H.L. Mencken
That says it very nicely. (Didn't someone quote that at Larry Flynt's
obscenity trial?)
V-Man
>torture during her 1972 visit, she certainly should have discovered that POWs
>were being tortured after they started coming home.
No doubt. We don't disagree at all. But the fact is that her handlers in
NVN simply didn't let her see that. She didn't "turn in" any POWs, there were
no slips of paper that she handed over.
> That she let her
>statements that they had been treated well stand as truth makes her complicit
>in those war crimes.
A) She was mislead.
B) She was niaeve.
C) War Crimes are not what she did. Those are defnied by international
treaty. Please don't confuse poor judgement, violation of travel restrictions,
and niaevete with an actual crime.
> She has a moral duty to retract those statements that the
>passage of time hasn't diminished.
She did, on TV, in 1989. She apologised, profusely. It might have been just
to salvage some dignity, I dunno, but she *DID* apologise. That you hadn't
heard is normal, those with an axe to grind usually don't mention it, it's
inconvineient to thier ability to stay mad at her.
>I find it incredible that she could have met with POWs and not suspected they
>were being badly treated.
And if she were told that they had been punished for attacking thier captors,
why should she not believe them?
>It was a matter of great concern at the time and she
>should have at least asked a few pointed questions of her hosts.
Right. I'm a guest of a nation that has been accused of barbarity, I am
already convinced they are as pure as driven snow, and I'm going to question
them? NOT...
>Maybe she
>should have asked to visit a POW compound after that anti-aircraft battery.
She *DID* visit a POW facility. The Hanoi Hilton itself. It had been
policed up so there was nothing to shatter her *illusions*.
>Her actions leave us with the question was she too stupid to know or did she
>lie for propaganda purposes?
She was how old? Her early 20s. She *was* DECIEVED!
>Suppose she was just stupid. Then we'd be
>stupid to let her words go unchallenged on any subject.
>
Works for me.
Bob
Tom wrote:
> In alt.quotations Bob <chil...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Don Thompson wrote:
>
> >> It is an indication that the scribe has added words to make the meaning
> >> clear.
> >>
> >> Note: a.w.v readers generally don't give a shit what "news" the bitch
> >> makes.
>
> > Please define a.w.v. Those initials do not fit any of the ngs listed on the
> > address information.
>
> Some of the addresses elsewhere on this thread included alt.war.vietnam.
>
> Tom Parsons
>
Thank you, Tom.
To all the Viet Nam vets, from a pre-Nam cold war vet.
Thanks, gentlemen, thanks.
Bob (Registered Old Fart)
Speedbyrd
you don't know that I haven't, or wouldn't if given the opportunity. you're the biggest phoney
of all on here.
Speedbyrd
i can stick kick your foreign ass and never doubt, you fucking phoney.
Speedbyrd
>> You obviously don't know much about our history. Along with freedom of
>speech, we also have
>> the right to be ignorant and stupid.
>>
>> The Speedbyrd®
>>
>> How's my posting?
>> 1-800-eat-SHIT
>
>That is exceedingly obvious from your postings mate
>
>Nigel Brooks
>
I'm not your 'mate' you lazy, unproductive piece of aussie shit.
Speedbyrd
Insults are juvenile. Jane has her rights and I defend them. Things are changing around the
world now and you may too soon find out just how good you HAD it.
Ted Gittinger
"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote in message news:Flbv7.140730
>
her
> right to say it.
Well, that sentiment is a comfort. Original, too.
ted
Ted Gittinger
>
>
> shut the fuck up you whimpering douchebag.
Oh, where *is* Doctor Mack when you need him? Ad hominem arguments, tsk.
> what I said still stands.
> I defend Jane's right to be right or wrong and the same for all of you, so
get off your
> self-righteous highhorse and please don't bring up 'the good ole' days'
again. You were stupid
> for going.
Heh. I think we are getting to the kernel of Speed's position. Or problem.
What were you up to during the Vietnam era, Speed?
Something honorable, I bet.
ted
>
Norman Wilner
news:ETpv7.40763$pN2.12...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
I never claimed it was; you snipped my attribution to Voltaire. It was
incorrect, apparently, but it was right there in my signature.
Norm "Insert last word here" Wilner
Ted Gittinger
touch.
> >Bob
>
> No, actually I'm very much IN touch.
Well, shame on you. That sort of thing will make you go blind.
ted
Donna L. Bridges
<feqv7.40781$pN2.12...@typhoon.austin.rr.com> "Ted Gittinger"
<TGITT...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>"Speedbyrd" <spee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> No, actually I'm very much IN touch.
>
>Well, shame on you. That sort of thing will make you go blind.
Another myth! Who is keeping the tally?
--
DonnaB <*> shallotpeel on Yahoo 8^>
"Understand the causes of terror? Yes, we should try, but let there be
no moral ambiguity about this: nothing could ever justify the events
of September 11 and it is to turn justice on its head to pretend it
could." - PM Anthony Blair, 10/2/01
Nigel Brooks
Oh, I don't think that you have, or would. You are probably a pimply
teenager with delusions of grandeur.
Nigel Brooks
Nigel Brooks
Well speedy, after doing a little google research on your posting history, I
wonder if kick was the word you had in mind.
Nigel Brooks
Jim
traitorous activities??
"Norman Wilner" <xnwi...@xhome.xcom> wrote in message
news:Flbv7.140730$sM1.38...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> "Richard Rongstad" <rong...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
> news:3BBD23BB...@vikingphoenix.com...
> > Speedbyrd wrote:
> >> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:42:32 -0400, "doug" <dou...@charter.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Boy, this dame really knows when to quit while she's ahead,
> >>> huh? Here's a great idea Jane:
> >>
> >>> "SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE." You shouldn't even comment
> >>> on a fight between two kids at a playground.
> >>>
> >>> Your out of touch, you don't get it and looks like you never will.
> >>> So once again, when you feel like you want to comment on war
> >>> or political unrest just: "SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> She has a right to her opinion just as we all do. Please don't
> >> start with the sappy patriotism. It's not a good time for that.
> >
> > Just so's I don't make a mistake and do some "sappy
> > patriotism" in front of the whole newsgroup, will someone
> > please 'splain to me what is the difference between "sappy
> > patriotism" and regular plain old patriotism?
>
> I suspect the difference is when you attempt to suppress someone else's
> right to freedom of expression, in the process of expressing yourself.
>
> The previous poster is correct: Fonda has the right to hold an unpopular
> opinion. I might not agree with it, but I'd fight to the death to defend
her
> right to say it. That's the key to a free society.
>
> Norm "Ask that Voltaire guy" Wilner
HayJump
a war crime to be identified as such. Most notably, Japan didn't sign the
Geneva Accords before WWII. This doesn't mean the atrocities they committed
weren't war crimes. The Japanese war criminals who were hanged are rather
significant proof of this.
When Fonda denied the torture, she was complicit in the war crimes. Even if
she was so dim she didn't realize what was happening, failing to recant after
the torture was exposed makes her complicit after the fact. While her actions
aren't as henious as those of the actual torturers, she shares their guilt.
Presumably, now that she is in her 60s and the North Vietnamese aren't ushering
her around by the elbow, she is no longer "naive" and mislead. She should
speak up.
I did read reports of her 1989 "apology." It was a very lame attempt with more
self-justification and rationalization than contrition--a Clintonesque effort
before Clinton. If she is sorry, she should make a better attempt. And, if
that fails, she should keep attempting. Her's was a rather large fault to
apologize for. A few apologies are little to ask. Fortunately for her, little
more will ever be asked of her.
<And if she were told that they had been punished for attacking thier captors,
why should she not believe them?>
Because starved, beaten POWs don't have much luck attacking their captors and
even if they do, it is a war crime to torture them as punishment.
<Right. I'm a guest of a nation that has been accused of barbarity, I am
already convinced they are as pure as driven snow, and I'm going to question
them? NOT...>
Why not? When Fonda was instructing the masses outside of North Vietnam she
showed little shyness. North Vietnam had indeed been widely charged with
abusing prisoners. If Fonda believed they were snow pure and the pals she
claimed them to be, she shouldn't have been afraid to ask them any
question--especially when POW abuse was of such concern to the families of the
POWs. If she made those statements absolving the North Vietnamese of
mistreatment without asking questions, she was irresponsible. If she knew
better, she was participating in the abuse by hiding it. Again, the choice is:
was she stupid or was she evil. Even if it is a matter of stupidity, there is
a point when stupidity, willfully indulged in and never apologized for, becomes
evil. She should have known better then, she should have known better later,
and she certainly should know better by now.
I don't believe Fonda has made any serious attempt to deal with her past. I
think she still believes she was a heroine who still must guide the masses with
her superior compassion. I understand why Vietnam vets are unforgiving and a
lot of others are just sick of Jane Fonda and her stupid, smug
self-righteousness.
OBQ
"Some quirk in human nature allows even the most unspeakable acts of evil to
become banal within minutes, provided that they occur far enough away to pose
no personal threat."
Iris Chang
"You can't shame or humiliate modern celebrities. What used to be called shame
and humiliation is now called publicity. And forget traditional character
assassination. If you say a modern celebrity is an adulterer, a pervert and a
drug addict, all it means is that you've read his autobiography."
P. J. O'Rourke (1947- ), Give War A Chance, 1992
V-Man
Since she never had first hand knowledge of it, do you want her to make shit
up or what?
>I did read reports of her 1989 "apology."
The Apology was given during an interview with Barbara Walters.
>It was a very lame attempt with more
>self-justification and rationalization than contrition--a Clintonesque effort
>before Clinton.
Since you only *read* about an event that took place on TV, how do you know
how sincere she was? You a mind reader, too? It *sounds* like you got your
information from somebody with an axe to grind, not using an unbiased source.
But you criticise Fonda for "being so dim..."
Carl Hatchell
"Speedbyrd" <spee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7mjqrtg5igujtr5g7...@4ax.com...
>
> You obviously don't know much about our history. Along with freedom of speech, we also have
> the right to be ignorant and stupid.
>
>
> How's my posting?
> 1-800-eat-SHIT
You seem to be well aware of your rights and are taking full advantage of them.
Carl Hatchell
Norman Wilner
news:fIrv7.35969...@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com...
Absolutely. But criticizing her and just demanding she "shut [her] pie hole"
are two different things. One is expression, and the other is suppression.
Norm Wilner
JASON A. KAATZ
"Jane Fonda Files" <Fonda...@vikingphoenix.com> wrote in message
news:3BBC9555...@vikingphoenix.com...
> [Americans must] "try to understand the underlying causes" - Jane Fonda
> - Sept. 20 on Mix 105.7 FM and WGST (Atlanta)
>
> Source for quote
> http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2001/9/22/115145
>
> Also:
> "I would think that if you understood what communism was you would hope,
> you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists."
> - Jane Fonda, at Michigan State University, quoted in Detroit Free Press
> of November 22, 1970.
> Source: - http://vikingphoenix.com/news/quotes.htm#media
>
>
> Jane Fonda Files
>
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/Jane
Fonda.htm
Ted Gittinger
(Doubled up in laughter, here.)
>
> How's my posting?
Well, you might stop swinging in the dark until you have identified your
target. Unless of course you are deliberately trying to be funny. In that
case, steady as she goes, old boy.
ted
Richard Rongstad
>
[snip extraneous]
> > Do we not have the very same right of free speech to criticise
> > her and her traitorous activities??
>
> Absolutely. But criticizing her and just demanding she "shut [her] pie hole"
> are two different things. One is expression, and the other is suppression.
That's absolutely nonsense. One is criticism the other is just
blowing off steam, a rant. Ranting is a protected right.
That's right. Demanding Jane Fonda shut her pie hole is just a rant,
it's expression to use Norm Wilner's term.
I'm surprised Mr. Wilner would say such things, if his
credentials are as advertised.
Nobody in their right mind wants Jane Fonda to shut up. The more
she talks the better for Americans, the worse for Fonda and her
feminist rehabilitators and simpering sycophants with their
eyes on her deep pockets.
E.g., "I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me
in an anti-aircraft carrier, which looks like I was trying to
shoot at American planes" (Oprah Winfrey interview of Fonda).
Jane Fonda and her boosters e.g. Oprah, Barbara Wawa, etc.
can't talk fast enough or long enough to get Jane Fonda
out of the hole Jane Fonda has dug for herself.
For more fun just point your browser to the Jane Fonda Gallery
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/CelebrityFiles/TurnerandFonda/JaneFonda/jfonda_gallery.htm
(If your browser or news reader folds this long URL, copy and paste it.)
Speedbyrd
>Speedbyrd wrote:
>> there's nothing I like doing better than farting in the face of vets
>> who use their participation in a worthless war to gain sympathy for
>> themselves and put down others. That shit was 30 years ago. A great
>> man once said, "he who is without sin among you, cast the first stone."
>> So here's a big raspberry out of my ass for ya!
>> TTTTTHHHHHHHWWWWWWTTTTTTTT!!!!!!
> I put people down, you put people down, why can't a veteran do the
>same? Especially when you consider the person in question is a
>traitor like Hanoi Jane who, amongst other things, supplied the real
>names of some POWs. People paid a very dear price for that. I believe
>she finally came out with a half-baked apology a few years ago which
>proves how sincere she really is. She's not sorry for what she did,
>she's just sorry she's still got the stink on her and will never get
>it off. F Jane Fonda.
> If vets are looking for anything from their participation in the war,
>I doubt it's sympathy, it's probably a little recognition, respect and
>understanding.
> The war obviously wasn't a popular one but the blame for that doesn't
>lie with the vets, it lies with those who sent them down there and
>decided how it would be fought. Many people lost their lives, were
>crippled or were scarred psychologically as a result of the war. That
>isn't worthless to me and I doubt you're going to convince any vets it
>was either.
> How many vets do you think were enthusiastic about putting their lives
>on the line? Whether they liked it or not, they answered the call.
>That's something to be very proud of in my eyes.
> Before every Remembrance Day you see the men in uniform holding their
>donation tins or trays. I got into the practice of thanking them for
>their service to the country when I donate. A little gesture, a little
>recognition, a little respect. That's probably all any vet is looking
>for.
Some of them. Some of them want to milk the good ole' days for all they can get.
Speedbyrd
I scarcely give a fuck what an inbred aussie shit bucket thinks.