Old Bailey nursery rhyme
Steve Masticola
Bailey; I may not have all of it here. Does anyone have a clue as to
its meaning?
Oranges and lemons,
Say the bells of St. Clement's.
You owe me five farthings,
Say the bells of St. Martin's.
When will you pay me?
Say the bells of Old Bailey.
When I grow rich,
Say the bells of Shoreditch.
Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
NPG! -S.
nemesis
>Bailey; I may not have all of it here. Does anyone have a clue as to
>its meaning?
I heard of this from a friend from England who was visiting the United
States. She and her kids would sing it while playing a game that was
similar to London Bridge is Falling Down ...
> Oranges and lemons,
> Say the bells of St. Clement's.
> You owe me five farthings,
> Say the bells of St. Martin's.
> When will you pay me?
> Say the bells of Old Bailey.
> When I grow rich,
> Say the bells of Shoreditch.
While this is sung, the kids walk around in a circle and under the
arms of two others held up like a bridge.
> Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
> Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
At this point, the two people holding their arms up, drop them down
and catch the person in between. And thus, they are out :)
Don't know what the meanings of the song is ... but it is fun to watch
kids playing the game ...
-----------
"waltzing is wonderful, dear ... | Jen Farrell
you get to press your body up against a female | jlf...@psuvm.psu.edu
and rub back and forth ... " -me | j...@dev-null.phys.psu.edu
Nadia Haneef
>I heard of this from a friend from England who was visiting the United
>States. She and her kids would sing it while playing a game that was
>similar to London Bridge is Falling Down ...
>
>> Oranges and lemons,
>> Say the bells of St. Clement's.
>> You owe me five farthings,
>> Say the bells of St. Martin's.
>> When will you pay me?
>> Say the bells of Old Bailey.
>> When I grow rich,
>> Say the bells of Shoreditch.
>
>While this is sung, the kids walk around in a circle and under the
>arms of two others held up like a bridge.
>
>> Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
>> Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
>
>At this point, the two people holding their arms up, drop them down
>and catch the person in between. And thus, they are out :)
>
>Don't know what the meanings of the song is ... but it is fun to watch
>kids playing the game ...
>
My friends used to have their own version of this rhyme which was something
like this:
Oranges and lemons,
All for the .... (can't remember what the word was)
All the school girls are so merry
.......
Has anyone heard this version and remembers it?
Anant Kumar
>>> Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
>>> Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
wasn't this used by George Orwell in "1984"?
-anant
Vladimir V Zelevinsky
|> > Say the bells of St. Clement's.
|> > You owe me five farthings,
|> > Say the bells of St. Martin's.
|> > When will you pay me?
|> > Say the bells of Old Bailey.
|> > When I grow rich,
|> > Say the bells of Shoreditch.
|> >
|> > Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
This nursery rhyme plays a very important part in "1984", by G. Orwell.
It's of no use quoting - one has to read the whole book.
Regards,
Vladimir.
puck
> [Questions regarding "Oranges and Lemons"]
>
Noticing a reference to an old favorite rhyme of mine, and
unable to remember the last two lines, I followed the first
primary rule of graduate studies: Anyone else's research may
be an acceptable break from your own. So, after searching several
books of Mother Goose, I came across the following article,
describing:
1: In the first part, the use of the rhyme as a game.
2: In the second part, the locations of the bells, and
3: In the FINE PRINT, many versions of the rhyme.
Currently published versions of the rhyme (in several Mother
Goose books found) open with "Gay go up and gay go down" and
end with the chopper chopping off the head, have 12-13 sets of
bells from the list in the FINE PRINT, and are called "Oranges
and Lemons, or alternately "The Merry Bells of London."
What follows is from THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF NURSERY RHYMES,
edited by Iona and Peter Opie, 1951. Oxford University Press,
London. pp. 337-339.
And it worked. I managed to avoid real research for most of
the evening.
--Kerim.
-----------------------begin excerpt-----------------------
Oranges and lemons,
Say the bells of St. Clement's.
You owe me five farthings,
Say the bells of St. Martin's.
When will you pay me?
Say the bells of Old Baily.
When I grow rich,
Say the bells of Shoreditch.
When will that be?
Say the bells of Stepney.
I'm sure I don't know,
Says the great bell at Bow.
Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
This renowned song is known to young children even when they have
never played the game which accompanies it. In the game (played
in the manner of `London Bridge' and `Through the needle e'e, boys')
two of the bigger players determine in secret which of them shall
be an `orange' and which a `lemon'; they then form an arch by joining
hands, and sing the song while the others in a line troop underneath.
When the two players who form the arch approach, with quickening
tempo, the climax of the recitation, they repeat ominously `Chop,
chop, chop, chop, CHOP!' and on the last CHOP they bring their arms
down at whichever child is at that moment passing under the arch.
The captured player is asked privately whether he will be an `orange'
or a `lemon' (alternatively a `plum pudding' or `roast beef'; `tart'
or `cheesecake'; a `sack of corn' or `sack of coals') and he goes
to the back of the player he founds he has chosen, and the game and
singing recommence. As now usually played, the end comes when every
child has been lined up on one or other side of the arch, whereupon
there is a tug of war to test whether the `oranges' or `lemons' are
stronger.
The execution formula has been seen by some folk-lorists as a
relic of the gory past, and origins of the nature of those linked
with `London Bridge is falling down' have been suggested. The days
of public executions have been cited, when the condemned were led
along the street to the accompaniment of the tolling of bells. It
has also been suggested that the words refer to Henry VIII's many
marriages and the speedy demise of some of his wives. Whether or
not the terminating lines have special significance, they do not
appear in the song's earliest recording (c. 1744):
Two sticks and and Apple
Ring ye Bells at Whitechapple,
Old Father Bald Pate,
Ring ye Bells Aldgate
Maids in white Aprons,
Ring ye Bells a St. Catherines,
Oranges and Lemmons,
Ring ye Bells at St. Clemens,
When will you pay me,
Ring ye Bells at ye Old Bailey,
When I am Rich,
Ring ye Bells at Fleetditch,
When will that be,
Ring ye bells at Stepney,
When I am Old,
Ring ye Bells at Pauls.
In the previous century `Oringes and Lemons' was the name of a
square-for-eight dance, published in the third edition of Playford's
DANCING MASTER (1665). It is a common practice to give words to the
chimes of bells and there are a number of local rhymes similar to
`Oranges and Lemons.' In Shropshire there is an old and lengthy
jingle beginning,
A knut and a kernel
Say the bells of Acton Burnell.
In Northhamtonshire they repeat similar words, and in Derby they
used to say,
Pancakes and fritters,
Say All Saints' and Peter's;
When will the ball come?
Says the bell of St. Alkum;
At two will they throw,
Says Saint Warabo;
O very well,
Says little Michael.
All Saint's and Peter's, &c., are ancient churches in the town of
Derby (St. Warabo is St. Werbugh,) and the words were chanted on
Shrove Tuesday when the great game of football was played in the
streets with a very large ball, half the town against the other
half of the town. The province of `Oranges and Lemons' appears to
be to City of London. In fact the long version in GAMMER GURTON'S
GARLAND (1810) begins,
Gay go up and gay go down,
To ring the bells of London Town.
Edward Everett Hale described (1905) the thrill an American vistor
feels as he reaches the City and hears the names of the churches he
has known only in song spoken of familiarly. St. Martin's probably
refers to St. Martin's Lane in the City, where the moneylenders
used to live; Old Bailey is near Fleet Prison where debtors were
sent; Shoredich, where an old church once stood, is just outside the
city walls; Stepney, nearby, is also without the city; Bow must be
St. Mary-le-Bow in Cheapside, whose bells told Dick Whittington to
`Turn again.'
Which church peals `oranges and lemons' is the subject of contention.
Claims have been made both for St. Clement's, Eastcheap, and for St.
Clement Danes. The former is situated near the Thames Street wharves
at the foot of London Bridge, where the berths for landing citrus fruit
from the Mediterranean used to be situated. The latter, on behalf of
which there has lately been strenuous propaganda, and a special service
held each 31 March, is similarly placed. Sir Frank Lockwood in "Law
and Lawyers in Pickwick (1893) describes how in past times the tenants
at Clement's Inn used to receive a toll for allowing the porters to
carry oranges and lemons through to nearly Clare Market. The subject
has, however, been given undue importance. In the second and fouth
earliest versions of the song (c. 1760 and 1805) the `oranges and
lemons' couplet does not even appear.
FINE PRINT:
T. THUMB'S PSB, c. 1744, as quote/TOP BOOK c. 1760, similar to
previous but `You owe me ten Shillings, say the Bells at St. Hellens'
insteat of `oranges and lemons,' `Shoreditch' instead of `Fleetditch,'
and ends `I do not know Says the great Bell at bow'/ T. THUMB'S SB,
1788, as c. 1744, but `Ring the Great Bells at Paul's'/ SONGS FOR
THE NURSERY, 1805, `You owe me five shillings, Say the bells of St.
Helen's. When will you pay me? Say the Bells of Old Baily. When
I grow rich, say the bells of Shorditch. When will that be? Say
the bells of Stepney? I do not know, Says the great Bell of Bow,
Two sticks in an apple, Ring the bells of Whitechapel. Halfpence
and farthings, Say the bells of St. Martin's. Kettles and Pans,
Say the belss of St. Ann's. Brickbats and tiles, Say the bells of
St. Giles. Old shoes and slippers, Say the bells of St. Peter's.
Pokers and tongs, Say the bells of St. John's.'/ GG'S GARLAND, 1810,
begins as quote, then `Bulls eyes and targets, Say the bells of St.
Marg'ret's', followed by the bells of St. Giles', St. Martin's, St.
Clement's, St. Peters (`Pancakes and fritters'), Whitechapel, Aldgate,
St. Helens, St. John's, St. Ann's, Old Bailey, Shoreditch, Stepney,
Bow, then `Here comes a candle', &c./ MG'S QUARTO, c. 1825, as 1805/
JOH 1842, as 1810/ Rimbault, 1846, as first half of 1805/ OLD NURSE'S
BOOK, Charles Bennet, 1858, as text but `And here comes a chopper to
chop-off-the-last-man's head'/BABY'S OPERA, 1877/ Gomme, 1898,
sixteen versions principally similar to text/ MOTHER GOOSE, Arthur
Rackham, 1913/ In George Orwell's NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, 1949, the
quotation of the forgotten song `Oranges and Lemons' is used to
symbolize the unattainable and desirable past.
-----------------------end excerpt-----------------------------
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Simon Read
>I just came across the following nursery rhyme which mentions the Old
>Bailey; I may not have all of it here. Does anyone have a clue as to
>its meaning?
I heard of this from a friend from England who was visiting the United
States. She and her kids would sing it while playing a game that was
similar to London Bridge is Falling Down ...
> Oranges and lemons,
> Say the bells of St. Clement's.
> You owe me five farthings,
> Say the bells of St. Martin's.
> When will you pay me?
> Say the bells of Old Bailey.
> When I grow rich,
> Say the bells of Shoreditch.
[deletia]
Don't know what the meanings of the song is ... but it is fun to watch
kids playing the game ...
The bells refered to are bells of chapels and churches in the City of
London. Each peel of bells seems to be calling out a phrase, for
instance St. Clement's seems to call out "Oranges and Lemons".
Presumably the cadence is the same as that of the phrase or something.
Old Bailey is the chief Law Courts in Britain. The rest are churches
in the Square Mile. How many still stand or have their original bells
I don't know.
The bells would probably have dominated the sounds of the city when
the rhyme was written. They are drowned out now by the continuous
rumble of traffic.
The bridge, I think, was London Bridge. Now somewhere in Texas.
Aside: To be a true cockney you have to be born within the sound of
Bow Bells. Which, if my childhood memory serves, appears later in the
rhyme.
Simon Read
----------
Simon...@umist.ac.uk
MR. Y
This nursery rhyme is also quoted in George Orwell's "1984" where it is told to
the hero by a shop-keeper in the "prole" (?) section of London. It is been a
while since I have read 1984, so please don't ask me for any details, but I
think there is some more explanation of this in the book.
Markus Iturriaga
"Things go smoother with lard!"
itur...@utkvx.utk.edu "Bring back the glory that was grease!"
itur...@utkvx.bitnet -East Tennessee Lard Advisory Council
MILLARD FILLMORE LIVES!
===============We've=got=what=it=takes=to=take=what=you've=got.=================
Jeffrey J Ratcliffe
> >I just came across the following nursery rhyme which mentions the Old
> >Bailey; I may not have all of it here. Does anyone have a clue as to
> >its meaning?
>
> I heard of this from a friend from England who was visiting the United
> States. She and her kids would sing it while playing a game that was
> similar to London Bridge is Falling Down ...
>
> > Oranges and lemons,
> > Say the bells of St. Clement's.
> > You owe me five farthings,
> > Say the bells of St. Martin's.
> > When will you pay me?
> > Say the bells of Old Bailey.
> > When I grow rich,
> > Say the bells of Shoreditch.
>
> While this is sung, the kids walk around in a circle and under the
> arms of two others held up like a bridge.
>
> > Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
> > Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.
Obviously, the names: St. Clement, St. Martin, Old Bailey and Shoreditch are all London churches. I think it is a reference to the fact that when an execution was
taking place, all the London churches rang their bells, but I am not sure about this point. Would someone like to correct me?
---
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves
up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
marcia goldstein
: In article <93063.095...@psuvm.psu.edu> JLF...@psuvm.psu.edu (nemesis) writes:
: The bells refered to are bells of chapels and churches in the City of
: London. Each peel of bells seems to be calling out a phrase, for
: instance St. Clement's seems to call out "Oranges and Lemons".
: Presumably the cadence is the same as that of the phrase or something.
: The bridge, I think, was London Bridge. Now somewhere in Texas.
It's in Arizona. According to what the tour guides in London say, some
millionaire there bought it, thinking it was the picturesque bridge which
is actually Tower Bridge. London Bridge (both the old one now in
Arizona and the new one in London) is not particularly interesting-looking.
: Aside: To be a true cockney you have to be born within the sound of
: Bow Bells. Which, if my childhood memory serves, appears later in the
: rhyme.
I believe that the "oranges and lemons" rhyme and all the others are
actually part of cockney rhyming slang. As an example, they say
"apples and pears" when they mean a flight of stairs.
An interesting aside is that this rhyme figures prominently in "1984"
when Winston is trying to remember London's past.
Anthony Robert Sabo
>In article <93063.095...@psuvm.psu.edu> JLF...@psuvm.psu.edu (nemesis) writes:
>
>
>The bridge, I think, was London Bridge. Now somewhere in Texas.
Actually, the bridge is in Lake Havasu City, Arizona.
It was purchased by Robert McCullough of McCuulogh Chain Saws and
moved brick by brick first by sea to California and then by truck
to Arizona.
Lake Havasu City is about 1.5 hours south east of Las Vegas
and/or 2 hours north west of Pheonix.